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Start Mediation

Hi. I'm the mediator from the mediation cabal who is taking the mediation case Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-25 CSICOP. Its looking like an edit war is getting ready to get going plus a flame war so I'd like to step in. Now first let me establish neutrality:

• I live in the US
• I did not know there was a Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
• I have no knowledge of paranormal events outside of what is seen typically on TV
• I am an atheist and typically mediate religion cases (so I'm comfortable mediating stuff I don't necessarily believe in).

OK now that that is out of the way I'd like to make my first mediation suggestion. Davkal is claiming that he can't engage in reasoned debate due to threat of reversion. KarlBunker agrees there is an edit conflict going on. So the first thing I'd like to do is establish a policy where you both agree to discuss edits here and I'll make them. That way no one is worried about being reverted. You can look at Every Nation to see a mediation where I am using this technique and what this will look like after a month. I'll sometimes ask for specific cleanups but by in large this will take the pressure off. jbolden1517 12:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Question investigations

Karl I would like you to address Davkal's point about CSICOP not conducting investigations fairly? jbolden1517 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that phrases the question correctly. I'm not sure that represents any of the edits Davkal is currently advocating, and in any case, there is no practical way to argue that CSICOP's investigations are "fair" or not. KarlBunker 13:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What I'm hearing from him is that he has sources that indicate that CSICOP conduct biased investigations. Hasn't CISCP every answered these charges? How did they establish their standards? I.E. what I'm hearing from you in this response is that you don't have any evidence that the claim isn't true. jbolden1517 13:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Certainly there have been complaints that CSICOP has conducted unfair investigations. Most people who fail a test of their alleged paranormal powers complain that the test was unfair. Some of the more credible or notable criticisms of an unfair investigation or of an overall "bad attitude" are included in the article. Responses to these criticisms are also given or cited.

Davkal why do you object to the preponderance of evidence vs. beyond a reasonable doubt analogy? jbolden1517 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the analogy presents CSICOP as "ideal" skeptics when many, including a number of founder/early members, would argue that they are unreasonable doubters - ie. pseudoskeptics. I think that if the quotes are to stay then something should be said about this. I also feel that the claim about the evidence required by (all) proponents of the paranormal is pejorative and may not even be true. One can be an ideal skeptic and still have come to the belief that some aspects of the paranormal are genuine. In short, I think the analogy presents a dichotomy where none necessarily exists and may not even accurately reflect either side in the context of of an article on CSICOP. I would have far fewer complaints about this analogy in an article devoted to scientific skpticism.Davkal 13:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK can you give me 2-3 examples where evidence would have met the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard and yet the claim was still rejected? jbolden1517 14:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK can you give me a few examples of proponents of the paranormal, and claims which have met normal scientific standards but not the enhanced ones? jbolden1517 14:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The analogy, and the accompanying Carl Sagan quote, do not claim to be a description of CSICOP activities. They are are descriptions of the skeptical, scientific approach to claims of the paranormal which CSICOP espouses. Accordingly, the phrase CSICOP attempts to approach such claims in the manner recommended by CSICOP Fellow Carl Sagan: would best be replaced with CSICOP advocates an approach to such claims...--KarlBunker 14:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, jbolden's questions. I am not so much concerned with this analogy as an analogy about the respective positions of an "ideal" skeptic and a (maybe) non-scientific proponent of the paranormal. What concerns me is this analogy appearing in the CSICOP article since to me, it gives the impression that CSICOP adopts this position. I think the examples of cases (the Mars effect) where they fiddled the evidence and then finally made accusations of fraud show that they will simply move the goalposts in assessing claims - the Demkina case shows that they sometimes start with the goalposts in a peculiar position as well. So, my main concern is that the analogy does not reflect C's actual position accurately. If I understand KarlBunker's last comment correctly, he now seems to be saying that the analogy is not supposed to accurately reflect CSICOP's views in any event but is merely meant to illustrate the position of the "ideal" sceptic. I think it would be very surprising if the average reader, reading about this in a section on CSICOP's activities, were not to conclude that this was a description of CSICOP's activities.Davkal 17:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Activities and People

Why the desire to list people inside of activities, particularly given there is a whole section dedicated to people? jbolden1517 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The disagreement is in the removal of this short list of particularly notable members, early in the article. I would be happy with moving this list to the end of the first paragraph, where it won't conflict with any section heading. KarlBunker 13:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK tell me if that compromise (which still hits the people but moves them down) satisfied you both? Its just a suggestion so you can revert but it was easier to do than to describe. jbolden1517 14:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to put this list of notable members in the opening paragraph. Davkal 15:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

OK if you are both agreeing on a spot go ahead and make the change. jbolden1517 15:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought we'd agreed to put the list in the first section. As things stand we have a comment in the activities section that does nothing more than point to another section. Davkal 18:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Investigations

Karl I'd like you to give me 3 examples of investigations that CISCP has conducted in the last 10 years. jbolden1517 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Most, if not all, of the articles shown here fit the definition of "investigations" and many fit the definition of "scientific investigations." These are articles published in Skeptical Inquirer, which is published by CSICOP. A, B and C are examples of articles in which scientific method was used.

Davkal once he has done so I'd like you indicate why those 3 aren't investigations at all. jbolden1517 12:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the articles are good examples of bad (pseudo) science.

Let's pause for a second. The original question was whether CSICOP conducts investigations. It seems to me like you are agreeing they conduct investigations you just disagree about how they do it? That is you are arguing they aren't good investigations. Am I missing something? jbolden1517 15:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

That is correct, I have never claimed that C doesn't conduct investigations but that the investigations are described in a manner that I feel misleads. All of my edits have retained the claim that they conduct investigations.Davkal 15:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to keep going here because I think this is a useful example and we all seem to understand it. As far as I can tell from the article both sides agreed she was not using random chance (i.e. p was substantially greater than 1/7). Where the disagreement was whether p was high enough to compensate all of the other non random but non paranormal methods she might be using. Do you disagree with that? jbolden1517 21:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it makes much difference to be honest. The point of the criticism is that one test of only seven people is not enough to demonstrate very much at all (unles she got them all wrong). But by getting 4 out of 7 she passed the tests well enough to obviously warrant further investigation. C, however, concluded that no further investigation was needed and that she had no psychic powers purely on the basis of a completely unscientific contract that had been drawn up prior to testing. In short, the experiment showed enough that anyone genuinely interested in scientific evaluation would ask for further research to get to the bottom of the observed 50-1 shot. Not C though, according to them she failed, has no psychic powers, and the 50-1 shot, well, who cares, job done.Davkal 21:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you read my comment. They agreed she was performing better than random, that was never in question. What was in question was whether her performance was anywhere near what someone with X-ray vision would have. I.e. random is p = .15, if she is performing at p=.35 she's doing much better than random. A tech with an X-Ray machine might perform at p=.998 or so. I'm trying to figure out how this is different that standard statistical practice when you have a biased sample and are trying to determine if it is more biased than suspected? 01:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the answer about how you determine what, if anything, Natasha can do is through further study. But C's conclusion was that no further study necessary. I simply cannot see how anyone could arrive at that conclusion in good faith. I should also point out, though, that I have no knowldge of the use of statistics in such cases and am only going by what others (far more qualified than I have written). This link takes you to a page where Keith Rennolls, Professor of applied statistics at Greenwich University, sums up what he thinks about the test, including the claim that "The experiment is woefully inadequate in many ways" and the suggestion that Richard Wiseman's comments show "a complete lack of understanding of how experimental data should be interpreted statistically". http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/propaganda/THES1.html Davkal 11:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The Deminka test has been heavily criticised by numerous scientists including Nobel Laureate Brian Josephson who said that "On the face of it, it looks as if there was some kind of plot to discredit the teenage claimed psychic by setting up the conditions to make it likely that they could pass her off as a failure". He, and other scientists, have shown that the statistical analysis was flawed and that incorrect statistics were presented. CSICOP's Richard Wiseman rejected these criticisms on the basis that all parties had signed a contract prior to the test agreeing to the method of testing. As Josephson points out, "real science does not work on a basis of getting someone to sign their agreement to a long list of conditions, then later coming back saying "this is what you signed; the challenge goes to us!""

Can you elaborate more here? What was the statistical problem? It seems to me given a probability p she gets any particular guess right the 4 case is

${\displaystyle {7 \choose 4}p^{4}(1-p)^{3}}$

So at p=.3 you are picking up 9.7% and at p=.5 you pick up like 27%. So it does have substantial impact whether you include the 4 case or not. jbolden1517 16:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, what I meant to say was that the statistical analysis in no way backed up C's conclusion. Rather, an arbitrary figure was picked and used counter to normal scientific procedures. That is, had the statistical analysis and conclusions conformed to normal preliminary testing, and given that the chances of doing as well as natasha did by chance to be over 50-1, then the irresistable conclusion would have been that further testing was warranted. Davkal 18:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that this is contrary to normal procedure. This seems to be exactly what is normal procedure for biased samples where you are trying to determine if you have "too much" bias. The reason I'm pushing so hard is we need at least one good example of them "cheating" to justify your links. If you want to pick one of the other ones OK but otherwise we just have a bunch of half baked claims. jbolden1517 01:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

OK the Mars effect. Here's what another ex-member Richard Kammann had to say-

"Faced with unfaultable evidence of a connection between the position of planet Mars at birth and success in sports, skeptical Professors Paul Kurtz, George Abell and Marvin Zelen repeatedly offered fallacious statistics to deny astrology's only ray of hope. Focusing only on a small section of the Mars data, deleting the favorable results for females, dividing the sub-sample into tiny bits and applying the wrong statistical tests, the trio still could not get rid of the Mars effect. They ultimately argued that it was based on faulty data, due either to incompetence or cheating by Michel Gauquelin of France, who produced the original finding." from an article called True Disbelievers. It may also be worth looking at the WP article on Philip Klass (the critics sections) to see other info on this and other matters.Davkal 10:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it was shown that Gauquelin's data was biased. Bubba73 (talk), 22:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This discussion--on the topic of whether or not a particular article is (in the opinion of the people at attendance here)--good science, is not germane for the reason I stated below. It's not for us to decide what is or isn't good science, beyond a basic judgement of whether an apparent attempt was made follow scientific method.--KarlBunker 21:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I really don't see how we are going to determine if they are conducting good science or whether propagandists using science to advance another cause without looking at their arguments in depth. I mean that is the question on the table. We need to treat it seriously. If you have another method (like a peer reviewed journal which has reviewed CISCOP's stuff then great. But otherwise we need to at least figure out if the claims of propaganda appear: true, likely true, possibly true, unlikely true or definitely false. jbolden1517 01:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's how you think this should be approached, I withdraw my objection. I just thought that this wasn't the WP way, but perhaps I'm generalizing from the wrong examples. I still feel it's important, however, to try to gauge the degree to which CSICOP' is respected by "credible sources," which I take to be scientists. The number of prestigious names in their list of "Fellows" is one measure of this, the frequency with which Skeptical Inquirer is cited by scientist and science writers is another, and the frequency to which they have been criticized by scientists is yet another.

Anyway, the Demkina case is a good one, because it's a case that brought CSICOP its harshest criticism from credible sources in recent years (rare and little though it was). It was, unfortunately, a pretty sloppy piece of work, with the subject and her entourage not fully following the procedure they were told to follow, and CSICOP ending up with less-than-resounding results and giving the impression that they had to stretch to put a favorable face on those results. But it is obviously not a case of blatant pseudo-science, and given the time and resource limits they had to work under, it's obviously they did the best work they could be expected to do.--KarlBunker 01:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Sheldrake

In Rupert Sheldrake's response to the third article (it was Sheldrake's theory of the sense of being stared at that was being "tested") he notes that "The answers of these five people went against Baker's prediction, so he retrospectively introduced another criterion. He ruled that subjects should be able to say where he had been sitting when he was looking at them."

And this, in many ways, is my point. I have never claimed that C do not conduct investigations. I have claimed that they conduct pseudo or debunk-at-all-costs investigations that have often been criticised by scientists. These investigations are then not subject to peer review but are simply published in C's own magazine as if that was that. My main edit on this point, then, was to take out the unnecessary and misleading claim/implication that C rigorously applies accepted scientific methodologies etc. in it's investigations and to go with the more accurate claim that C has conducted investigations that follow the maxim "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and that the paranormal claims being tested are always found to be wanting in this respect (I think this is what my last edit said). I am not even arguing that anything negative should be said about the investigations, merely that they should not be reported in such glowing terms. Or, if the manner of the investigations are described as they currently are I feel that something needs to go in at that point to make the reader aware of the charges. I should point out that the scientists who challenge C's investigations routinely complain about the methodology applied and are not merely griping at the results. This, I think, is exactly the point made by Rawlins, Truzzi and Kammann (all CSICOP members) and the scientists Josephson, Sheldrake. Davkal 14:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel it could be worth mentioning in the article that Skeptical Inquirer is not itself a peer-reviewed journal, and that the investigations it publishes are almost invariably into phenomena that have been reported only in the popular press, or pro-paranormal/pro-pseudoscience journals. Thus CSICOP is generally not directly involved in the peer-reviewed process of science.

Some scientists have criticized some of C's investigations. Anything that's done by anybody is going to be criticized by somebody. Countless other science writers and scientists writing for the popular press have cited C's investigations. One can find (non-professional, i.e. unpaid) examples of this by doing a search for "Skeptical Inquirer" in WP and looking for instances where it is cited as a source. I'm sure that Skeptical Inquirer articles have been cited in peer-reviewed scientific journals as well, though finding examples of that would be a more difficult web search. --KarlBunker 16:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

For us three here to attempt to decide whether C's investigations are good science would be original research and generally inappropriate. The criticism that C does not do good science is mentioned in the article. The question is, does the weight of criticism in the article represent the weight of criticism among "credible sources" in the field. That's a difficult or impossible question to answer. In the absence of an answer, the article can't stray too far from taking C's "word" that they do what they say they do, without becoming POV. KarlBunker 16:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not that sure that even C claim to conduct investigations in the manner you describe in the article. And I don't really see what is wrong with my wording. Given that you accept it is nigh on impossible to conclude for sure whether the investigations are good or not (and there is a significant amount of evidence for the latter) I think we should simply state that C conducts investigations following the extraordinary evidence maxim and invariably find paranormal phenomena wanting. I simply cannot see what is wrong with this.Davkal 17:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

interject?

Can someone else interject something here, or is this supposed to be between just you three? Bubba73 (talk), 03:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've no objection Davkal 10:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I read the article about Demkina last night, and I was going to comment on that, but I'll hold off since it is not important to the main issues. Bubba73 (talk), 17:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Nisbett's Article

Nisbet's 25th anniversary article is entitled "The origins and evolution of CSICOP: Science is too important to be left to scientists". What could this possibly mean other than there is a place for a non-scientific organisation (i.e. CSICOP) to enter the fray. This is all my point has ever really been. Davkal 11:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As is usually the case with statements in the format "XXX is too important to leave to XXXists", Nisbet was making a call to populism. He was referring to a need for scientific literacy among the general public, so the public can have meaningful input into the uses and course of science. The article is about C's role as a promoter of science education and scientific literacy:

But over time the SKEPTICAL INQUIRER (under science-writer Kendrick Frazier's astute editorship), CSICOP conferences, and the excellent courses and seminars offered through the Center for Inquiry have transformed CSICOP into a true science-education organization. Here science is conceived broadly as the cultivation of intellectual and personal dispositions that make for wise and sound judgment no matter what the subject matter." Hmm, so that's what science is. Davkal 22:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The following quote, although not very well written IMO, ties the article title in with its theme:

Science is obviously too important and potentially too destructive to be left to scientists. The methods of scientific inquiry adopted as active dispositions, active habits of mind need to be defined as a central part of what it means to be both scientifically and culturally literate. A basic knowledge of central scientific concepts and achievements and their impact, for better and worse, on the wider culture needs to be a central part of what it means to be both scientifically and culturally literate.

Note also that Nisbet draws a distinction between this role for CSICOP and its media-watchdog role:

The answers to the ambivalence question explains the evolution of CSICOP from its primarily media-oriented origins to functions both more diversified and broad in scope.

--KarlBunker 22:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Karl - you have spent the last five days reverting any attempt I made in the introduction to note that C was founded, even in part, as a media watchdog. Write whatever you like; I no longer care. My suggestion for the title would be: CSICOP: HOPE for the new millenium. Enjoy. Davkal 22:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, actually, I added a quote from the Nisbet article about CSICOP's media watchdogging role 4 days ago, and it's been there ever since. But you're correct that I didn't want it in the introduction. --KarlBunker 23:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

jbolden

I hereby withdraw any complaints about anything contained in this article. I have neither the time nor the effort to continue arguing about what the word "and" means. Suffice to say that a significant number of scientists, including Nobel Prize winners, have suggested it means "and" but a couple of magicians have refuted this and shown both that the whole notion of meaning is superstitious bunk and that the word "and" actually means "goat". If only CSICOP had embarked on their critical thinking tutorials sooner we could have all saved ourselves a lot of bother.Davkal 22:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC) http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A55991-2000Jun24&language=printer Robert L Park - subsequently elected a CSICOP fellow(ship of the ring).

Well I'm going to hold the mediation for a week in case you change your mind. So far the only article change that has emerged from mediation was about names and you seemed fine with that one. We were in the process of conducting an investigation into claims of cheating. I'm not sure what the comments regarding "and" and "goat" and so on mean.

You've obviously gotten frustrated and a break may be a good idea. So I'll stick around for a week and if you want to come back you are welcome to pick up where we left off. Otherwise if you are withdrawing for good then I'll shut down mediation. jbolden1517 16:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've got frustrated because no matter how many times I repeat muy intial points theynever end up getting discussed. My point was never that they were cheating (they were but that was not my point). My pints have always been (as can be seen from my previous edits):

1. That Csicsop was formed, in large part, to be a media watchdog. I wanted something about this to appear in the introductory paragraph. I have as yet to hear a single argument about why this should not be there. I have therefore reinserted it - and as you can see it is venomously POV, eh Karl.

I have explained my opposition to this several times, and I'll do it again:

1) In the process of inserting this edit, you are removing CSICOP's own quoted statement as to their purpose. I.e. you are giving your own opinion greater weight than the organization's quoted statement.

2) As you can see from the Nisbet article (see one of the quotes I excerpted above) and from 30+ years of Skeptical Inquirer content, media watchdogging is no longer the primary activity of CSICOP. Therefor it doesn't make sense to put this description of them into the introduction.

As for the rest of your comment below, please refrain from personal attacks and sarcasm if you want a response. --KarlBunker 18:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove the quote - only the quotation marks. (Virtually every word is still there as it was prior to my edit - I only moved "paranormal" and "fringe-scientific" out and replaced them with "such" so that the same words don't appear again and again in the same sentence. If you'd care to actually read the opening paragraph you would see that it makes perfect sense in relation to all further activities. And, once and for all, it is not my opinion that CSICOP are media oriented it is their opinion repeated almost everywhere in relation to their own discussion of their own organisation. If you read the paragraph you will also see the words "founded to ..." which means the reason they were founded. I simply cannot see why you want to maintain the pretense that CSICOP are not, and always have been, primarily a media-oriented organisation. And I fail to see wher you get the authority to simply revert every single thing I have put into this article over the last seven days. Davkal 19:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

2. C do not conduct scientific investigations in anything like the manner desribed by Sagan. What they conduct are debunking excercises that have left many in the scientific community concerned. I therefore wanted the description of CSICOP's phenomenally rigorous scientific approach, and the flowery quote from Sagan about what lies at the heart of science to be removed or toned down considerably. I have not seen one single piece of evidence yet suggesting that any kind of serious scientific investigation has been conducted by CSICOP. What I have seen, is an experiment that was descibed as "woefully inadequate in many ways" used to debunk, and then lay to rest, the claims of one psychcic.

3. I argued that the paragraph's about the respective position's re evidence to be removed because they were misleading inasmuch as they suggested this was CSICOP's approach. An approach that has been criticised regularly throughout the years by it's own members, the scientific/academic community and journalists etc. Karl Bunker now claims these paragraph's are not meant to represent C's position. Why are they there then?

4. I felt that the criticism section was unwieldy and spent about as much time, with another flowery quote from Sagan, defending CSICOP against fairly nebulous charges. I would have liked to see a more concise section dealing with the ongoing criticisms from significant sources. The only argument against this has been Karl Bunker's claim that this would slant the article too far against CSICOP. How does he know what I intend to write here.

In short, all I have spent the last week doing is arguing about stupid irrelevant points while all the time my actual points remain unaddressed and the artile remains as is. Oh sorry, Karl Bunker now accepts, but only after a mediator was brought in, that people are not activities. Hallelujah. Davkal 17:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like the mediation to continue, but I would like it to continue, if possible, one point at a time. I feel that this the only way we can avoid being drawn into irrelevant and prolonged discussion. Since it is my proposed edits that are the source of so much contention I think the discussion should deal specifically with them. My first suggested edit is that something about the media-oriented origins and continuing activity of C should be noted in the intro (see my last -reverted within about 10 seconds- edit).Davkal 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

AS evidence for my claim I will cite the Nisbet quote, the quote from Sagan "But from my point of view CSICOP serves an important social function — as a well-known organization to which media can apply when they wish to hear the other side of the story" (my emphasis), and to the fact that their 1987 handbook for sceptical organisations devotes seventeen pages to handling the media and public relations while only 3 pages are given to scientific investigation. Further evidence for the continuing media role of CSICOP. On it's website CSICOP currently lists around 100 email addresses for US Newspapers and TV companies and encourages readers to "directly influence the media by sending you comments via email directly to the networks, TV shows, and editors responsible for the way it portrays the world."

There is also the Council for Media Integrity (strangely absent from the article at present) which according to CSICOP's website is "an educational outreach and advocacy program of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP)"

And here's a quote from a 1996 CSICOP fundraising letter:

"you sometimes wonder what CSICOP can do to counter this torrent of foolishness CSICOP has mobilized thousands of scientists, academics and responsible communicators to criticize media's most blatant excesses and provide a responsible alternative point of view. As America seemingly rushes headlong into fantasy, our achievements may seem modest. But imagine if CSICOP never existed!"

The torrent of foolishness is mentioned earlier in the letter: The X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I should say that I have pointed all of this out before on the talk page. The only response so far is that this is merely my POV. Davkal 19:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

One point at a time is fine with me. In keeping with the mediation process, I'll wait for jbolden to pose a question or raise a point for one or the other of us to respond to. KarlBunker 19:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

Gentlemen (or ladies), I thought that edits were supposed to be discussed with the mediator first, and then the mediator would make the changes. (I made some minor edits after the mediaton began, but only to clean up some links.) Bubba73 (talk), 20:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)