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scientific peer review

The sentence " Intelligent design has been unable to penetrate a single peer-reviewed scientific journal." was removed. I'd like the names of a peer-reviewed scientific journal in which an intelligent design article was published, as well as the name of that article. - snoyes 17:22, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Chiu, D.K.Y. and Lui, T.H. Integrated use of multiple interdependent patterns for biomolecular sequence analysis. International Journal of Fuzzy Systems. Vol.4, No.3, Sept. 2002, pp.766-775.

The article begins: “Detection of complex specified information is introduced to infer unknown underlying causes for observed patterns . By complex information, it refers to information obtained from observed pattern or patterns that are highly improbable by random chance alone. We evaluate here the complex pattern corresponding to multiple observations of statistical interdependency such that they all deviate significantly from the prior or null hypothesis . Such multiple interdependent patterns when consistently observed can be a powerful indication of common underlying causes. That is, detection of significant multiple interdependent patterns in a consistent way can lead to the discovery of possible new or hidden knowledge.” Reference number here is to The Design Inference (see below).

The Design Inference is the basis for the entire article - and is cited favorably throughout.

No, the citation is entirely gratuitous. The article does not cite again, invokes neither the methods nor conclusions of intelligent design, and in fact never mentions CSI or any other ID concept again after that first sentence. Those facts, plus the fact that one of the authors is an IDologist when not publishing real scientific research, are generally taken to mean that the citation was a stealth attempt to address the common criticism that ID does not participate in the peer-reviewed literature. — B.Bryant 09:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some other recent peer reviewed literature include:

• W.A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities (Cambridge: Cambridge University Pres, 1998). This book was published by Cambridge University Press and peer-reviewed as part of a distinguished monograph series, Cambridge Studies in Probability, Induction, and Decision Theory. The editorial board of that series includes members of the National Academy of Sciences as well as one Nobel laureate, John Harsanyi, who shared the prize in 1994 with John Nash, the protagonist in the film A Beautiful Mind. Commenting on the ideas in this book, Paul Davies remarks: “Dembski’s attempt to quantify design, or provide mathematical criteria for design, is extremely useful. I’m concerned that the suspicion of a hidden agenda is going to prevent that sort of work from receiving the recognition it deserves. Strictly speaking, you see, science should be judged purely on the science and not on the scientist.” Quoted in L. Witham, By Design (San Francisco: Encounter Books, 2003), p. 149.

• W.-E. Loennig & H. Saedler, “Chromosome Rearrangements and Transposable Elements,” Annual Review of Genetics, 36 (2002): 389–410. This article examines the role of transposons in the abrupt origin of new species and the possibility of an partly predetermined generation of biodiversity and new species. The authors’ approach in non-Darwinian, and they cite favorably on the work of Michael Behe and William Dembski.

They cite Behe and Dembski twice each, always in long citation lists used to indicate that a variety of opinion exists. They refer to neither author by name, and the word "design" does not appear in the article. — B.Bryant 12:33, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• D.D. Axe, “Extreme Functional Sensitivity to Conservative Amino Acid Changes on Enzyme Exteriors,” Journal of Molecular Biology, 301 (2000): 585–595. This work shows that certain enzymes are extremely sensitive to perturbation. Perturbation in this case does not simply diminish existing function or alter function, but removes all possibility of function. This implies that neo-Darwinian theory has no purchase on these systems. Moreover, the probabilities implicit in such extreme-functional-sensitivity analyses are precisely those needed for a design inference.

The article does not say anything about intelligent design, and I don't recognize any of the usual suspects' names in the bibliography. In what sense do you claim this article to be a penetration of ID into the peer-reviewed literature? You're grasping at straws — par for the course among ID advocates. — B.Bryant 12:43, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually, it's an interesting result and I don't see how it has anything to do with design. In many instances genes will decay to the limit of selective pressure on them - that is, they will degenerate to the point where any further mutations will become critical (and thus selected against). Also, enzyme exteriors ought to be sensitive to perturbation. The effect of introducing hydrophobic groups on soluble enzyme surfaces could be drastic in some instances. I don't see what this has to do with design at all - just says that some mutations can't be tolerated. That's well-known and uncontroversial. Graft 01:36, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• M.J. Denton & J.C. Marshall, “The Laws of Form Revisited,” Nature, 410 (22 March 2001): 417; M.J. Denton, J.C. Marshall & M. Legge, (2002) “The Protein Folds as Platonic Forms: New Support for the pre-Darwinian Conception of Evolution by Natural Law,” Journal of Theoretical Biology 219 (2002): 325–342. This research is thoroughly non-Darwinian and looks to laws of form embedded in nature to bring about biological structures. The intelligent design research program is broad, and design like this that’s programmed into nature falls within its ambit.

No, you are merely trying to define ID as "anything non-Darwinian". Notice that the second article's subtitle explicitly appeals to evolution by natural law, the very antithesis of intelligent design. — B.Bryant 09:14, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Preemptively, here's some info about an "article" in the Harvard Law Review: "It Just Takes One: How an advertisement for Intelligent Design theory made its way into the Harvard Law Review", by Chris Mooney. — B.Bryant 02:36, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Small change

I'm removing the following line from the Broader view of "intelligent design" section: "The belief that the laws of the universe were constructed to allow for the existence of intelligent life is known as the Anthropic Cosmological Principle." As best as I can tell, the statement is not supported by the article it links to. Perhaps someone more familiar with the topic can either change this sentence, or add to Anthropic Principle so as to make it more consistent.

Does ID really qualify as a Theory?

The article's first paragraph identifies ID as a "theory." But if indeed a hypothesis or conjecture requires the following to qualify as a theory:

then ID clearly does not qualify as a theory. Barring any credible proof that it is indeed a theory, I'm reverting the sentence to its original form: " Specifically, the claim focuses on the 'what'" FeloniousMonk

Similar arguments could be made about evolution itself. In fact, the chief bone of contention between Darwinists and ID adherents is whose idea is the the "scientific" one. Adherents of ID say their 'idea' is just as scientific as the hypothesis that an ancient civilization erected the statues on Easter Island.

If I get more involved with the evolution, intelligent design & crationism articles, I'll promote the view that the controversy is really a proxy for the battle between faith and atheism: if there's no Creator, we must have evolved from the primordial slime; if there's a Creator, He probably made us as a special miracle. --Uncle Ed 19:07, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Can't say I agree with your point about evolution. Clearly evolution has met each of the bullet points provided that define what constitutes theory. You'd have to demonstrate which bullet points evolution misses the mark on and how to make that claim stick. Read the definition and requirements provided for theory again, ID meets none of them and violates a few additional imputed requirements as well, like Occam's Razor. A similar breakdown and analysis with a mapping of ID's "product" to the requirements for something to be considered "science" puts the lie to ID proponents claiming that it is science. This is uncontroversial stance in the scientific community at large. Call me old-fashioned, but I still let the scientists define their metier.

Regarding your statement that "I'll (you will) promote the view that the controversy is really a proxy for the battle between faith and atheism"... It could just as easily be said that the controversy is a proxy for the struggle of irrationalism and anti-intellectualism against science. Or for spiritualism vs. materialism. I think that the faith vs. atheism proxy conjecture is only half the analysis.--FM 20:58, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What ID's Opponents Say; is it really relevant?

Quote:

"Opponents of ID, who include for the most part the scientific community, consider this argument to be knowingly deceptive..."

Hold on. This is an article about intelligent design. So why are we talking about what ID's opponents say?

Let's try turning that paragraph around:

"In reality, this argument is knowingly deceptive and has no standing as a scientific hypothesis, i.e. it is considered pseudoscience. ID does not present falsifiable hypotheses, and violates the principle of naturalism within scientific philosophy. There are many examples of poor design within biology."

And we can't forget this:

"Opponents of ID, who include for the most part the scientific community..." (in other words, ID is unscientific and only non-scientists believe in it.)

Come on. You can't deny that that paragraph is based on an evolutionist bias. There's really no reason why it should exist in an NPOV article about intelligent design. I suggest that we remove it completely.

I think that para belongs in the body of the article, somewhere. It is relevant, but the whole article is a bit of a shambles, so there is no one place where all the critical viewpoints are gathered together. ] 07:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It would be irresponsible for an encyclopedia to carry an article on a pseudoscience without pointing out that it is a pseudoscience. — B.Bryant 08:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And is it indeed a pseudoscience? That statement is not a proven fact, nor is it universally agreed on. C. Duben 12:56, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It indeed is, as it consists of nothing but logical fallacies and strawman arguments. And you would know that by reading the article, if creationists would quit removing the inconvenient facts about ID. As for "universally agreed on", not everyone agrees that astrology is a pseudoscience either, but yet it is. — B.Bryant 13:35, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And yet you fail to point out any of these "logical fallacies and strawman arguments". Not only is your statement not universally agreed on, but it is a major controversy between creation scientists and evolutionists. C. Duben 15:09, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Claiming it is pseudoscience is not NPOV, and I for one certainly disagree. Philip J. Rayment 16:45, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

To use an absurdly clear example, we wouldn't have an article on Holocaust denial without explaining that many people disagree with the beliefs of Holocaust deniers, and explain their reasons for disagreement. Though I WILL agree that the "Opponents of" style is horrible writing. Graft 12:50, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There is a difference which invalidates your comparison. The holocaust was observed and apart from eyewitnesses, we have plenty of documented evidence. Goo-to-you-via-the-zoo evolution has not been observed, and remember that observation is one of the requirements of science. Philip J. Rayment 16:45, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Observation is a sticky term, and one shouldn't take it too literally. I once had an argument with an Islamist who was explaining to me that I shouldn't believe in evolution because I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. I asked him if his mother had been born from the womb. Yes, he said, of course she had. But he hadn't seen it with his own eyes - how could he know? I countered.

Similarly with your contention regarding 'observation'. Without going too deeply into a debate on idealism and whether it's really possible to "observe" anything, evolution as science IS based on observation - we need not literally see the past to know that it happened. When I come home and see the baseball lying in front of the broken window in a pool of shattered glass, I know what happened, though I may not have seen it with my eyes.

At any rate, returning to your statement: my example was only meant to demonstrate that issues of point-counterpoint, especially when they are hotly contested, MUST be presented in that light. To do otherwise would be to ignore an enormous facet of the issue. That is, intelligent design is a controversial and widely panned theory. To neglect mention of this would be a disservice to the readers of this encyclopedia, whatever the actual facts. Graft 17:52, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<Observation is a sticky term, and one shouldn't take it too literally.>>

I wasn't taking it "too literally". That's why I included "documented evidence". That is, we have written records of those that did observe it. Your Islamic friend may not have seen himself born from the womb, but he knew someone (his mother) that was there to observe it! Nobody has seen goo-to-you-via-the-zoo evolution!

<<When I come home and see the baseball lying in front of the broken window in a pool of shattered glass, I know what happened, though I may not have seen it with my eyes.>>

You might think that you know (and you might well be right), but your knowledge would hardly be scientific, would it?

<<intelligent design is a controversial and widely panned theory. To neglect mention of this would be a disservice to the readers of this encyclopedia, whatever the actual facts.>>

"Mentioning" that it is disputed it is one thing. But declaring it to be pseudoscience is another thing entirely.

Philip J. Rayment 16:00, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We know that it is possible for babies to be born from the womb. After all, we have seen it with our own eyes. But is evolution possible? That's a completely different matter, because it can be neither observed nor recreated.

Where did the universe come from? How did space first appear? Why do we live in a world of 3 dimensions and not 4 or 5? Did all this happen by chance?

How do you suppose life first appeared? Did dead chemicals magically acquire the right enzyme configuration and then just come to life?

Where are the real missing links that prove man's evolution? (besides the frauds like Piltdown and Nebraska man)

C. Duben 18:47, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ignoring the validity of these old warhorses, let's consider their relevance. What has any of that got to do with the legitimacy of the logical fallacies that IDologists offer to support their 'theory'? If you want to deny that ID is a pseudoscience, shouldn't you be making a case for it rather than expressing your doubts about real science? ID is a pseudoscience because of its own bogosity, not because of anything regular science does or doesn't say. — B.Bryant 18:57, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK. I agree that those questions are not relevant to the "pseudoscience" issue. But now you need to give me a highly overdue explanation of where these "fallacies" are. How is ID any more of a pseudoscience than evolution? C. Duben 19:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I suggest you read some books, you are clearly not qualified to be editing these pages. By suggesting that common descent has not been observed, or that evolution and ID are equally scientific you have shown that you have done no research, do not understand the concepts and should not be here. If you want to write on these topics it's up to you to do the research, not BB. --Steinsky 19:26, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have done plenty of research on the subject. I know many arguments that evolutionists have used to try to make that point, and I know the counterarguments. But as I'm not trying to put words in BB's mouth, I'd rather let him speak for himself. C. Duben 19:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Argument by put-down. Philip J. Rayment 16:00, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed - let's not stray too far from the subject, here, as well. Questions about life, the universe, and everything have no bearing on intelligent design or on evolution; neither does the question about the origin of life. No ID proponent (including and especially Behe) has yet advanced a coherent explanation for how Design operated, and how a theory of Designed life accurately reflects the nature of the world. Consider, for example, the Bombardier Beetle. If it were impossible for it to have evolved, it must, hence, have been created as such - has it been around since the beginning of creation? Since Earth appeared? At what point did the Designer step in and say, "Let there be Bombardier Beetles"? Can YOU find Bombardier Beetles way back in the fossil record to establish that they were, in fact designed? These and other questions remain unanswered, because ID proponents simply can't answer them without exposing themselves to ridicule. Their failure to outline a coherent THEORY is what makes ID a pseudoscience. Graft 19:27, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is almost funny. ID is opposed by the scientific community. A few of the external links should show you that. To remain NPOV, the POV advanced by IDers is should be explained first, followed by criticisms of it. As far as I can tell, this has been followed. Dunc_Harris|☺ 20:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Evolution can't explain how life started, where brand-new genetic information comes from, can't produce any indisputable transitional fossils between major groups of creatures, etc. etc., yet you criticise Intelligent Design because it doesn't have all the answers! Philip J. Rayment 16:00, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yawn. http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Evolution_is_baseless_without_a_theory_of_abiogenesis

Evolution doesn't even attempt to explain how life started; that's an entirely different problem, and not one that really receives a whole lot of scientific attention because it's mostly impenetrable. I can give you an explanation for "brand-new genetic information" right now: nearly all new genes arise as a result of gene duplication and subsequent functional differentiation. There are a number of reasons transitional fossils might not have been found between major groups of creatures, most significantly the incredible rarity of fossilization in general. If large changes in body structure are predicated on small effective populations (that is, your small population size enables you to explore your "fitness landscape" more easily), it doesn't seem unreasonable at all that these fossils wouldn't exist. The fact that they can't be found is thus hardly damning evidence against evolution (thus my snide remark about Bombardier Beetle fossils). The point is that people treat these questions seriously and attempt to actually answer them. That is, "How do new genes arise?" is a well-studied problem subject to intense debate. I can point you to probably hundreds of papers discussing it.

ID, on the other hand, does NOT attempt to answer these questions. Let's pose the same question to you: how do new genes arise? Can ID present even a rude picture of how life developed that is at least somewhat robust to examination? It has failed to do so. It doesn't even demonstrate an interest in doing so. It remains the domain of sophists. It is NOT science.

Incidentally, regarding your comment above about my broken-glass example. My supposition about how the window was broken is precisely scientific knowledge. 99% of scientists will tell you it is impossible to know anything beyond the shadow of a doubt; science is not the search for Truth. It is an attempt to explain the nature of the world. If you don't understand the nature of scientific inquiry, I feel I won't be able to explain to you why ID is pseudoscience. Graft 16:24, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<Evolution doesn't even attempt to explain how life started;>>

<<ID, on the other hand, does NOT attempt to answer these questions.>>

Don't you see the inconsistency here?

<<I can give you an explanation for "brand-new genetic information" right now: nearly all new genes arise as a result of gene duplication and subsequent functional differentiation.>>

Gene duplication is not generation of brand-new genetic information. Please give an example of brand-new genetic information as a result of "functional differentiation", because "functional differentiation" does not necessarily mean brand-new genetic information. By the way, when I said that evolution can't explain where the information came from, I didn't mean that it doesn't have a story, but that it doesn't have a story that is backed up by evidence.

http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Evolution_of_new_information

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dawkinschallenge.htm

See my comments on these links below. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<My supposition about how the window was broken is precisely scientific knowledge. 99% of scientists will tell you it is impossible to know anything beyond the shadow of a doubt; science is not the search for Truth. It is an attempt to explain the nature of the world. If you don't understand the nature of scientific inquiry, I feel I won't be able to explain to you why ID is pseudoscience.>>

Science involves observation, reproducability, and falsifiability. You didn't actually explain what you believe happened with the broken window. Presumably, you were thinking that someone hit a baseball through your window. But what if I suggested that your wife had been doing some home repairs, slipped with the hammer, and broke the window, then to avoid owning up, put the baseball there to make it look like it was the local youths that had broken it? How would you prove me wrong?

Philip J. Rayment 16:49, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There's no inconsistency in my saying that Evolution does not attempt to answer the question of how life originated and demanding that ID answer questions about how organisms develop. The question of how life originated is not relevant to how organisms develop. These are separate questions: where did it come from?, and where did it go from there? On the other hand, ID purports to be an ALTERNATIVE to evolution. Therefore it must provide a coherent theory that can provide answers for the same questions that evolution tries to answer. To return to my tired baseball analogy, it would be like my saying, "Okay, I think a baseball was hit through this window," whereupon you rejoin, "No it wasn't," but fail to tell me what you think DID happen.

As to brand-new genetic information, if you don't understand this, i'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. New genetic information crops up all the time. Each generation of humans acquires on average 100 novel mutations in their gene sequence, 2 or 3 of which probably have a significant functional effect. That is, they contain genetic sequences never before seen in the history of the world. That's "new genetic information". This is backed up by hundreds of studies on genetic disease, confirming the presence, frequency, and functional effect of new mutations. Graft 18:07, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<<The question of how life originated is not relevant to how organisms develop.>>

It may be a separate question, but it is most certainly relevant. If they don't get started, how can they develop?

http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Evolution_is_baseless_without_a_theory_of_abiogenesis

<<ID purports to be an ALTERNATIVE to evolution>>

Does it? That is, does it really claim to be a complete alternative? My point is that evolution as a theory is incomplete, yet you demand completeness from Intelligent Design. No theory has all the questions answered, so they can't be rejected just because they don't (yet) answer everything.

Not if you understand what Evolution is, which it has become clear you don't.

<<To return to my tired baseball analogy, it would be like my saying, "Okay, I think a baseball was hit through this window," whereupon you rejoin, "No it wasn't," but fail to tell me what you think DID happen.>>

Which would be a perfectly valid thing to argue if, for example, the baseball was found outside the broken window of a cupboard which was not big enough for someone to have been inside to hit the baseball through. In other words, there is nothing wrong with pointing out problems with a theory whilst not proposing an alternative. And that was an ironic example considering that I did propose an alternative! How's the proof that my explanation is wrong, going?

<<As to brand-new genetic information, if you don't understand this, i'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.>>

More argument by put-down.

No, it's not, there are loads of resources out there answering the "genetic information" claim, if you have to ask the question, it is a fact that you are uninformed about the argument.

<<New genetic information crops up all the time.>>

Then you shouldn't have any problems quoting a few examples, should you? But your remaining explanation doesn't hold much hope, because it appears to explain the origin of corruption of existing genetic information, not creation of brand-new genetic information. All genetic diseases so far studied are the result of corruption of existing genetic information. They do not introduce new functions, abilities, or organs, which is what evolution requires.

Philip J. Rayment 12:46, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Try these for starters, they include links to other sites and recomend books and papers:

I asked you for examples. Direct links to examples are fine, but links to links and links to books and papers are ducking the question. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I provided links because this is wikipedia, not a discussion board. You have misunderstood and misrepresented the science and I, and others, are trying to show you why you are wrong. The examples you ask for are out there, and already written, there is no point in me wasting wikipedia space retyping them. --Steinsky 16:37, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Evolution_of_new_information

Point 1 makes claims of new genetic information with off-line references, but no examples. Point 2 is to do with duplication, not new information. Points 3 to 5 give no examples either. A waste of my time. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Duplication + mutation leads to new genes. The concept is very simple, either you are willfully not getting the point, or you are willfully misrepresenting the science, either way it shows you are incapable of writing neutral wikipedia articles on the subject.

• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Most_mutations_are_harmful

I never said that there are no beneficial mutatations. A loss of information can occassionally be beneficial. Thus no examples here either, and another waste of time. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You talked about genetic degradation earlier, ignoring the action of natural selection, a misrepresentation of what evolution is. That page was a counter to your misrepresentation.

• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Mutations_don't_produce_new_features

Finally we get to one that actually has some examples, although virtually no information is given about them. The first is the Nylon bug, but this one is disputed . Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I haven't finnished reading your link yet, but it appears to rest on claims that the transposons are not compatable with the evolutionary explanations, and the claims are simply wrong. There is absolutely no reason to invoke the argument from design to explain the observation that transposons are activated when the cell is under stress, which could have one or more of a whole number of selection advantages, both for the cell and the "selfish transposon". The second claim is that there is no evidence that the transposons are a late addition. There is evidence, the evidence is that the transposons are almost identical. There article providence no evidence that the transposons weren't a late addition. Point 9 is irrelevant, there is no evidence that the evolutionary pathways in the wild and lab organisms was the same (and surely point 5, that an organism evolved nylon degradation ability in the lab counts against you?). Point 4 is irrelevant, because evolution is not chance, the author ignores natural selection.

• http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dawkinschallenge.htm

Again, no examples. Dawkins was asked for examples, and failed to supply any. I wonder why he didn't cite some of the ones you have given? Is that he doesn't know as much as you, or is it that he knows that they don't qualify? Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Whether Dawkins gives examples or not is irrelevant, he demonstrates how evolution "increases information", all the time. I'm sure I read that you yourself accept that "microevolution" occurs, in which case you must also accept that evolution increases information in this way. If you do not accept that microevolution happens you must be willfully ignoring the evidence.

• http://www.antievolution.org/people/wre/evc/argresp/information.html

No examples here either, except for an example of duplication. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=3f625d025bffffff;act=ST;f=9;t=6

I didn't have time to read this one in detail, but from what I did see with examples of presumed mutation (rather than observed), etc., I didn't find it convincing. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Now, I know the point of ID is all about trying to make people believe there are holes in the theory of evolution, rather than formulating any kind of theory or doing research, but even so, I think we should move any further discussion of such holes off wikipedia (I have started with links to specific EvoWiki pages for claims). I would be happy to carry on somewhere like IIDB.org. --Steinsky 13:45, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And I know that the point of many here is to make people believe that Intelligent Design is pseudoscience, rather than writing a fair article about a movement that threatens their belief system. Philip J. Rayment 15:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We have explained why ID is pseudoscience and you've ignored all of the facts and diverted this talk page into a debate about long-debunked anti-evolution claims. Perhaps if you could you privide the theory of ID and some evidence to support it, which does not include anti-evolution claims, you would have some support for your "ID is not pseudoscience" claim, but so far neither you nor anybody else has been able to do so. --Steinsky 16:37, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Falsification

Rikurzhen wrote:

the claim that natural selection is not sufficient to explain biological complexity is a scientific hypothesis, which has been falsified.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that science has "proven" that natural selection is sufficient to explain biological complexity? Or are you making the weaker claim that "biologists in general reject ID's arguments about irreducible complexity?

At the very least I can say that biologist reject ID arguments about irreducible complexity. But specifically, I was saying that whenever the claim that a certain case of biological complexity is irreducible has been considered, it has been falsified. In any other circumstance, this pattern of consistent falsification would be considered reason to doubt all similar claims. For example, if you tell me that a pile of pebbles is too heavy to move and then I move it, and then you say that another pile is too heavy and I move that just as easily, and so on. Eventually, we should agree that moving any pile of pebbles is well within my power. Likewise with biological complexity and the power of natural seleciton. I hope that you keep in mind that in almost any science, this kind of argument is considered sufficient to reject one hypothesis when a strong(er) alternative is available. --Rikurzhen 18:18, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

<<whenever the claim that a certain case of biological complexity is irreducible has been considered, it has been falsified>>

Falsified? So when ID says that a particular biological structure could not have developed step by step, some scientists have indeed developed that structure step by step? Interesting. Could you quote some examples of such step by step development? Philip J. Rayment 12:52, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No, IC can be achieved by evolution, there is no need to hypothesise a designer.

• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Some_systems_are_irreducibly_complex
• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Bacterial_flagella_are_irreducibly_complex
• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Blood_clotting_is_irreducibly_complex
• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Protein_transport_within_a_cell_is_irreducibly_complex
• http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Immune_system_is_irreducibly_complex

There should be ample research material for you in the references and further reading sections there, though I could carry on?. --Steinsky 13:55, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Most of these were story-telling. There was no falsification by demonstrating gradual development, just as I said. A story about how it might have happened differently is not falsification. By the way, your bias is showing. To rephrase your first line, No, IC can be achieved by a designer, there is no need to hypothesise order arising from randomness. In fact I would suggest that in this case Occams Razor supports the designer idea! Philip J. Rayment 15:42, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No. The intelligent design claim is that by reason alone we think that existing biological system could not have been built from individual steps. Thus, this can be refuted by reason alone in offering an explanation of how such systems could indeed have come into existence. If someone claims that X is impossible, all that is needed to refute that claim is to offer a single example of how X could be possible. That is why I said that claims that natural selection is not sufficient to produce biological complexity has been falsified. --Rikurzhen 18:40, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand Occam's Razor. The razor does not support hypotheses for which there is no evidence. I am not biased when I say there is no reason to hypothesise a designer, rather than saying there is no reason to hypothesise evolution, because there is a mountain of evidence supporting evolution and the mechanisms of evolution, evolution makes predictions and follows the other rules of a scientific theory. There is no reason to hypothesise a designer because not only is there no evidence for a designer, but there is already a well supported theory which explains complex life forms without a designer. --Steinsky 19:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, a major argument against ID goes like this:

1. If there was a designer, someone must have created the designer.
2. If you can't say who created the designer, you must be wrong.

Sounds like science can sometimes slip the bounds of naturalistic philosophy and make metaphysical arguments. So why can't theologians make arguments about nature too? --Uncle Ed 19:14, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

...who include the overwhelming majority of the scientific community...

ChrisDuben on one hand, and Steinsky, Bobby D. Bryant, and Duncharris on the other, have been in an edit war over the inclusion (or not) of the above phrase.

I don't expect that this will be easy to resolve, but I offer the following comments:

• The phrase is factually correct.
• One version said, "who include the overwhelming majority of evolutionists". Opponents of ID probably include all evolutionists, so this variation is a bit pointless.
• <<NPOV is not a justification for removing facts inconvenient to your personal beliefs--Bobby D. Bryant>>In fact it can be, if the the selection of facts display bias. From NPOV dispute: "While all facts might be presented fairly, the very selection (and omission) of facts can make an article biased."

So with that last point in mind, is the sentence just giving the facts, or is it preaching?
Or, to ask another question, why is the entire paragraph put so high up in the article? The Evolution article relegates any mention of disagreement to the very end of the article (bar the links). Why shouldn't the same apply here?
Philip J. Rayment 16:29, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Isn't there an evolution survey which shows that 99.8% of biologists and 95% of scientists in general, agree with the theory of evolution? --Uncle Ed 21:19, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some pollsters do look at people in American men and women of science versus the general public show more knowledge and acceptance of evolution within the scientific community. But the quickest evidence of this can be seen at Project Steve at http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18 -- and that's just those called Steve. Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:27, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The sentence definitely should stay (even better if it can be quantitative, perhaps with % of biologists as well). Intelligent Design proponents claim ID to be scientific, and that the majority of people with a training in science claim that it is not scientific is something that must be mentioned in an encyclopedia article about it. --Steinsky 22:50, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of "scientific"

Does the word scientific mean:

• true, because the thing in question has passed through all stages of the scientific method? Or,
  • (William M. Connolley 16:05, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)) The SM page is a philosophers disaster area.
• accepted by the overwhelming majority of scientists? Or,
• something scientists care about? Or,
• a hypothesis which scientists consider to be 'falsifiable', i.e., they can think of some practical experiment that might prove the hypothesis to be false?

I'd like to see all the Misplaced Pages articles touching on evolution and creationism use a consistent definition of "scientific" -- or at least highlight and clarify and inconsistent uses of this crucial term. --Uncle Ed 13:38, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 16:05, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)). (1) - no. (2) presumably not, else relativity started off being non-sci but then became sci. (3) maybe (4) usually a touchstone.

(4) is probably best. For example (just a random example you understand :-) global warming passes the test, because its predictions (warming of 2-5 oC in 100 y given certain CO2 scenarios) can (in theory) be falsified by waiting 100 years to see. OTOH observing the Crab Nebula is science but it isn't falsifiable... but could be called stamp-collecting science. Ah... I slipped in the word predictions too. Making predictions is a Good Thing from the science POV. Does ID make any?

A scientific theory is much more than just falsifiable, though that is one of the criteria. Theories are also judged by their scope, clarity, logical consistency, precision, testability, and empirical support, and can usually be used to make predictions about other data and observations which could be made. --Steinsky 16:54, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)