Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:36, 20 May 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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The article creation process

Removed comment from banned user. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• At five visits a day I am not certain we should care. Saffron Blaze (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
• You know, I used to enjoy bantering with this particular banned editor (I don't mean Saffron, obviously, but the one to whom he responded). But when he began participating tendentiously in AfDs of companies that were dumb enough to hire him, brought 3RR cases and otherwise cynically gamed the system, my views have changed. I mean, it's sort of amusing to get a lesson in ethics from a person whose business model is unethical, but that has worn thin just a bit. Especially when he retreats to an external website and goes on about how "funny" it is that he is causing so much disruption and wasting people's time. Coretheapple (talk) 15:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
• Always nice to see Jimbo's "open door policy" being "enforced". KonveyorBelt 16:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
• Yeah, and I always enjoy seeing the policy against banned users editing articles and posting in AfD discussionss and noticeboards being "enforced." Coretheapple (talk) 17:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• Obviously this is a troll, but I find the censorship more obnoxious than the troll. There is an uncomfortable truth at the heart of the troll, I think, that an WMF event sponsor had an article about them created after they were announced as being an WMF event sponsor and it was noted on Wikipediocracy that there was no WP article about the event sponsor. Voila! An article appeared. Funny how that works. Sweeping this under the rug because an IP is presumed (via ABF) to be one particular banned editor is unseemly, regardless of whether or not one thinks there was any sort of quid pro quo — which seems highly unlikely... Carrite (talk) 00:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe Wikipediocracy ought to find someone other than a banned editor who operates a paid editing mill to be their Chief Ethics Officer. But I will say this: he definitely belies the "we're only trying to improve Misplaced Pages" line of bullhockey that the paid editing apologists tend to spew out. I mean, editing from a company's computers, disclosing it and his affiliation with the banned editor's paid-editing mill, then saying that he was just wandering by a hotspot, and then still being in that "hotspot" six hours later while he repeats that malarkey. Then tendentiously editing the AfD of the article he was editing, still using the company's computers. Then filing a 3RR report. Then edit-warring here. Then engaging in schoolyard personal attacks in his posts and edit summaries. Then this, then that, making a total fool of himself. It just kind of makes the paid-editing apologists look pretty bad, don't you think, with this guy as their primary goodwill ambassador?

Then going to an off-wiki site and canvassing the AfD.

Then, to top it off, somebody like you comes around and weeps bitter tears that there is "censorship" taking place and that we're not "assuming good faith." When the only way we can have this pleasant conversation at all is because the page is semiprotected to keep that nuisance from blundering in here and making a pest of himself yet again. Coretheapple (talk) 03:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you really think that an administrator semi-protecting this page would stop He Who Cannot Be Named from posting here for even one minute — assuming that the IPs in question were, in fact, used by that person? This is silly. The basic fact is this: an ethical complaint was made (to make a point). And it was censored away from view. Carrite (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, all kidding aside (I assume you're not being serious), do you think this guy gives a hoot about ethics? Coretheapple (talk) 19:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I actually do — although I'm positive he would frame the problem at hand differently than you would. But I think this is the big issue for him: hypocrisy. Carrite (talk) 20:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

But it's a phony issue. Even if he was Jack Pureheart, it would be a phony issue, because the volunteers here genuinely don't give a f--k who donates, who doesn't, who is with the WMF, who is a brother of Jimbo, who is Jimbo's main squeeze, etc. etc. It just doesn't register. People are here for other reasons (boredom, fascination with mid-20th Century theater, hatred/love of Ethnic Group X), and "covering up for Jimbo" is maybe Reason Number 10,000,000 or so down the ladder. There is so much dreadfully wrong with Misplaced Pages, and "unbridled self-editing by contributors, pals of Der Jimbo and other WMF-connected people, covered up, hushed up, horrible!" is not one of them. It just isn't. As I said, objectively, putting aside his own misconduct, assuming he's Jack Pureheart, the problem is, objectively, more him and the values that he represents (using Misplaced Pages for personal gain), than anything he raises, here or anywhere. What I find strange, though, is how the only serious Misplaced Pages-scrutiny website has become an echo chamber for paid editors and their enablers and tools. To me, that's remarkable in itself. Don't you think so? Coretheapple (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

No reason to argue, he's a banned editor and has been for 6 years. In that time he's insulted or tried to intimidate almost every editor. Just revert his edits on site. If he'd like to take me to arbcom, I'm sure that will give the arbs a good laugh. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

But you have to admit, he knows how to game the system. For instance, this great Foe of Censorship systematically censored my posts here and on the AfD page of the article he edited, to remove any mention of his COI even though he disclosed it. He brought you to 3RR. To top it off, he produced so many IP socks that the SPI that I commenced reads like the Philadelphia telephone directory, to make it tl;dr. I used to defend the guy's presence here but now I revert him on sight, unless Jimbo says otherwise, this being his talk page and all that. Coretheapple (talk) 21:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

This is the essence of the difference: Your own concerns about WP ethics are focused on abuses of the editorial process by those mingling with noble volunteers for nefarious commercial purposes. HWCNBN's concern is with perceived ethical abuses by the official establishment which makes use of the freely offered labor of the noble volunteers for its own nefarious ends. So you are both rather obsessed with ethics, it seems to me, although coming at the situation from completely opposite ends. Carrite (talk) 05:05, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

(I personally think you're both a bit overwrought on the matter, I add.) Carrite (talk) 05:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

No, you're wrong on every count. I don't care about paid editing all that much. I think it sucks but I've come around to the belief that it is the Foundation's problem. User:MyWikiBiz/TheKohser is a banned editor, and when he posts he gets reverted on sight per WP:BANREVERT. Coretheapple (talk) 11:14, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Quoted from Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee: "(Note: there is no evidence known to me that this IP is a banned user whose posts should be reverted as such. Newyorkbrad (talk) 10:16 pm, 17 May 2014, last Saturday (2 days ago) (UTC−7) " Do you have such evidence? KonveyorBelt 15:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

So you want to know if I have "evidence" about some IP who posted on some other noticeboard having absolutely to do with the banned editor's obsession and his current, disclosed editing job? No, I don't have any "evidence" concerning this totally irrelevant IP. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I thought the two were the same. KonveyorBelt 16:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• http://xkcd.com/1357/ Guy (Help!) 08:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• Great cartoon. Says it all. Everybody should read it. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 11:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

SPA and hoisin sauce

Today I went to Talk:Main Page for whatever reason and an editor left a link to hoisin sauce, a term I did not know. When I clicked on the link, the first thing I saw was a glaring advertisement for "Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce" on the top right hand corner, something I detest as a supporter of an advertisement-free Misplaced Pages, a mark in which the Foundation has great pride as well. I checked the history and found that the editor responsible, User:Kenixho, had also made a similar edit on Plum sauce. I reverted both edits, and then went to WP:SPA to find the appropriate action to take. I am not as optimistic on editorial change as SPA is, and now I'm wondering if an administrator can ban a user for such actions, or in what direction I should focus editors like Kenixho. Earlier today I watched and assuming your position has not changed regarding PR firms, how should I deal with such a user? Seattle (talk) 21:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked the user indefinitely for blatant advertising. If the problem continues through other accounts, you can raise the problem on the administrators' noticeboard. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It was ghastly, but I have to say, when I went to the previous version of those pages, I laughed out loud. Good catch. I think I'll prowl the condiment pages. Coretheapple (talk) 22:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to ask, why is File:Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce.jpg for Lee Kum Kee "ghastly" while File:Hoisinpet.jpg for Amoy is considered acceptable? I have a bottle of Kikkoman hoi sin in the fridge at the moment, LKK products are usually too sweet for my liking. Tarc (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Both images are up for deletion, the Lee Kum image was accompanied by advertising copy(vio). I prefer Amoy but don't think I've had Kikkoman. There's also a good one I get made by a London restaurant. Dougweller (talk) 18:59, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Good idea. I converted the inline imgs to links, too. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I rather urgently need a bit of research help.

This explains it. Best to answer there, to keep the discussion contained.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

. Email me if you need more details about the ODNB entry.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

For another time: I understand you're resident in London, so you could join your local public library and, almost certainly, it will offer you 24/7 online access, from your home or office, to ODNB and a whole range of other reference material: Oxford English Dictionary, The Times archive 1785-1985, etc. Depending on what borough you're in, find a page like this one for Kensington & Chelsea and you can just log in with your library ticket number. PamD 22:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Have emailed the article to you Jimbo Wales - and echo what PamD said about joining your local library. DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

What an exciting idea, joining my local library. I've never actually been.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo Wales (talk • contribs)

The online access (off-site) to subscription sources makes it well worth the trouble of turning up with some proof of name and address to join. I'm sure they'd be delighted to meet you! PamD 15:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo on BBC Radio 4

The followup to the above: a nice little spot in the last 5 minutes of Today, discussing myths. Misplaced Pages came out of it very well, as John Humphrys and the "London tour guide and historian" Peter something - I can't catch his name - Berthoud (added, see below) agreed that Misplaced Pages is "definitely benign and very useful" as long as you check the page history. The discussion started with Phyllis Pearsall but Jimbo then talked about the question of who invented the aeroplane (was it the Wright brothers or ...?) as another instance where everyone "knows" something but may not all "know" the same. Hear it (for a week, and perhaps only in UK?) on BBC iPlayer here (last 5 mins). PamD 13:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC) Surname added 15:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I adore BBC4. But I so wish the interviewers would occasionally let their subjects complete a thought. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

This blog, linked in the talk at Phyllis's article, suggests the "Peter" was probably Peter Barber, author of London: A History In Maps (ISBN 9780712358798) and Head of the map collection at the British Library. PamD 14:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually this fellow stands in opposition to Peter Barber, who has been apparently critical of Phyllis Pearsall. Here is his twitter feed, and from it he links to his blog post on the matter.

It seems, given what I know so far, that there is a double myth here. First, it is a myth that she walked all the streets of London to create the first version of the guidebook. And second, it is apparently myth that she ever claimed to do so. There are a great many reliable sources which claim both that she did, and that she claimed to do so. But this historian has turned up no evidence that the story originated with her and her autobiography explicitly says otherwise. (Indeed, I have a copy here which I bought yesterday, and she tells the story of making the map in exactly the way that Peter Barber rightly surmises that she must have - by going around to the local councils to get their maps.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see from his blog that he's Peter Berthoud: difficult to catch from the broadcast. Two Peter Bs in same territory: scope for confusion to lead to more myths. PamD 15:32, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

She was interviewed about how she created her maps on Woman's Hour, Wed 7 Nov 1984. Unfortunately the episode is not currently available online, but I understand that the BBC do sometimes make transcripts available for research purposes. DuncanHill (talk) 15:53, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

There's a partial transcript here, which does tell the party story (in the framing material, not her words), and does have her saying she "walked down every long road in London and got to know London intimately. I loved it really because I met all sorts of people while I was doing it." DuncanHill (talk) 16:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, either backstage at the radio show, or on air, Mr. Berthoud acknowledged that she did say she walked down "every long road" - a very different and more plausible thing than the urban legend has attributed to her.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Walking a road is a very good way of spotting gross errors on street maps. Not sure if you've found this yet, but her brother has written a website with his thoughts and recollections. Untold Sixties.net DuncanHill (talk) 16:20, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Urhobo cuisine

In the Urhobo people article it says they eat Iriboto, Iriberhare, Okpariku, and Oghwevwri'sha. I can't find anything in a Google search or in Google books for any of these dishes except mirrors with one exception. This source which gives me a snipped view that says "their preparation and consumption such as Ukodo,Oghwevwri,Irhiboto,Ovwovwo,(Ophopho), Okpariku and Amiedi." Is there anyone who can get me the full sentence and preceding sentences? I saw in some sort of WikiNews type update that it was possible to get research assistance directly through Misplaced Pages to Australian librarians? How do I do that? Any other suggestions are welcome Thanks very much. This is a critically important subject. Candleabracadabra (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

@Candleabracadabra: - Here's a suggestion; why not post to the appropriate talk page? I'm sure Jimbo has a scholarly knowledge of the people of southern Nigeria, but I'm not sure he's going to be able to help on this particular matter. NickCT (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended. Fewer and fewer people are editing because it's been made so difficult and unpleasant here. But I will try your suggestion. The good news it that I think I was able to sort out some of these items. It seems to be an issue of transliteration. Not sure how we came up with the spellings in our article? Maybe original research which is, or was, it's own kind of start when it was allowed back in the glory days. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

@Candleabracadabra: - re "Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended" - I see. Well if you're just trying to get more eyes on the topic, it might more appropriate consider Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Africa or to think about an RfC before visiting Jimbo's talkpage. NickCT (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I would prefer that people be recommended to do things like that 'as well as' visiting my talk page. I like to hear about things like this, and one of the valuable things about this page is that it gives us all an opportunity to reflect on particular examples of what might well be wider problems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

That's a good suggestion Nick. I wonder if that project is active? Usually when I try posting to the project pages I get no replies. For example at the Colombia Wikiproject. This seems to be a popular page where I could get some replies and suggestions. I've always wondered why there was no centralized discussion page for general input. It's always seemed so weird to me that it's so challenging to get basic input and ideas. I guess people use the IRC channels for that? I don't know. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I thought about it and the Africa wikiproject is so generalized I don't see how it's any more useful to post there than here? I checked the Nigeria wikiproject page but the posts there don't seem to generate any responses. My question was also seeking a specific answer on how the Australian library project thing works and any other approaches that might be useful for hunting down this kind of thing which I come across frequently. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

@Candleabracadabra: - re "This seems to be a popular page where I could get some replies and suggestions." - Yeah. And 911 is a good number to call if you want attention. That doesn't mean it's always appropriate to dial 911 when you want attention.

But seriously, the problem you're pointing out is a pretty common one and there are common approaches to dealing with it (which don't include posting to Jimbo's page). If I find stuff like that I typically tag it with a Template:Verify source. If no one does after a couple months, come back and delete it.

re "Australian library project" - Hadn't heard of that. Don't know. Sorry.... NickCT (talk) 16:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage to ask for help or ideas with article subjects? He seems to get good results here when he's working through research subjects. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

@Candleabracadabra: - "Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage" - No. Jimbo is wise and inviting, and his tent is big. But still, if everyone came here to post on random subjects, the page would get a little busy, don't you think? NickCT (talk) 16:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a fantastic idea! I think it would be great for the encyclopedia. And once it gets too busy as you predict a discussion page can be created!!! FABULOUS!!! Misplaced Pages editors communicating with Misplaced Pages editors as they work through article creations and research ideas. Mana from heaven. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:EAR could stand to have a little more activity. --NeilN 21:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't see anything wrong with bringing this sort of thing here. Jimbo's a man of the people, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind hearing about small day-to-day editing concerns once in awhile rather than the usual litany of problems, crises, abuses, etc...that take up much space here. Tarc (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Oghwevwri is defined in the article. HTH All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC).

Re: The Australian librarians thing, see this Signpost article. Graham87 01:45, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Adrianne Wadewitz Memorial edit-a-thons

Adrianne Wadewitz edit-a-thons in Southern New England

As you may have already heard, the Misplaced Pages community lost an invaluable member of the community last month. Adrianne Wadewitz was a feminist scholar of 18th-Century British literature, and a prolific editor of the site. As part of a worldwide series of tributes, New England Wikimedians, in conjunction with local institutions of higher learning, have created three edit-a-thons that will be occurring in May and June. The events are as follows: May 21st at Northeastern University's Snell Library, in the Digital Scholarship Commons on the second floor May 22nd at Brown University's Rockefeller Library, in the Digital Scholarship Lab June 25th at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (exact location TBA), where we will also be hosting a "how to conduct an edit-a-thon" session beforehand We hope that you will be able to join us, whether you are an experienced editor or are using Misplaced Pages for the first time. If you have any questions, please leave a message at Kevin Rutherford's talk page. You can unsubscribe from future notifications for Boston-area events by removing your name from this list.

Verifiable, but not true

I quote to you from The Times, Saturday May 17, 2014, page 10, "What the world thinks" - a sidebar to a bigger story entitled "Criminals rush to keep online data away from Google": "Jimmy Wales, the British founder of Misplaced Pages, said..." Of course there are other sources which differ on this point, but they are older, and they do acknowledge that I have moved to London. Possibly I've gained UK nationality? Well, actually, no, it's just a funny little error.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't know. Are resident aliens sometimes called, British? Speaking from a British place, perhaps, subject to Her Britannic Queen's Majesty, in some sense. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of. I really do think it was just an error in the paper. Perhaps the reporter wrote "the London-based" and some copyeditor thought it tighter to say "British". Anyway, I'm not British. Blue passport, not red. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, as a British resident alien (or is that an American resident alien), you are apparently confusing or strange to them. :). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Standard of conduct for arbitrators

There's little doubt that parties in arbitration cases are often users who have engaged in some type of questionable conduct, which was prompted in response to difficult situations. Given that arbs are elected/required to vote in relation to that sort of thing, is it unreasonable to expect that arbs should lead by example in their own editing, conduct, and interactions with others?

Personally, I think the on-wiki arbitration policy in relation to arbitrator conduct is a bit of a joke as it does not really address situations which are more likely to arise with arbs, or the likely outcomes required to address those situations, or why a minority of arbs ought to be sufficient to effect temporary action sometimes. Note: although it might appear this post was made after I encountered this response to a comment/criticism/suggestion I made as an uninvolved editor, I had actually been thinking about the subject generally earlier.

What are your thoughts? Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Speaking only to the general principle, with no comment of any kind at the moment on any arbitrator's specific actions, past, present, or future: I expect that arbitrators should hold themselves, and each other, to the highest standards of behavior at all times. I think the community has a right to expect and demand the same. This does not mean that we should go ballistic every time an arbitrator says something firm to someone, or takes an action that gives rise to some minor controversy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)