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Cardinal Newman High School

Dear Netscott, How pleasant to have a private (relatively) tête-à-tête (metaphorically) away from the discussion page. I fear it would be improper until after the discussion is closed. I do believe (and this is merely to spell out the implication of my arguments on the project page), that it is a matter of the merits of this here school, not of High Schools in general. That seems to me to be the line of argument you are advancing in favour of Keep. So far, only TruthbringerToronto has advanced the superficially attractive but finally treacherous argument from principle - all high schools are notable (s/he says) therefore we must preserve the article on this High School. May the best arguments succeed. I would value your comments on my subpage. Note Benenden School, 480 pupils but still notable. I don't think size matters. --Stroika 18:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments on my subpage. If those schools are not notable then CNHS is definitely not noteable. (to 'e' or not to 'e'? both spellings look wrong to me). As for my comments (not on every keep vote!) - I do not want anyone thinking unanswered arguments are unanswerable arguments. --Stroika 19:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Your mention of Oxford, Cambridge and Berkeley suggest that we might be at cross purposes. Eton College and Winchester College are secondary *schools*, for 13-18 year olds. They are not universities. I know that Americans use the words "school" (as distinct from High/Middle/Elementary School etc) and "College" for institutions of higher education (Universities included). Perhaps my carelessness misled you? On other matters: Perish the thought that something is not notable simply because I (or you) have not heard of it.--Stroika 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments on my debating style on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cardinal Newman High School are all well taken. Some of what I say is waspish but I always play the ball not the man. It is a pity if anyone is offended but as I remarked to Netscott elsewhere I don't want anyone thinking unanswered arguments are unanswerable. (Apart from anything else I regard it as a courtesy to my opponents.) I had understood the process of consensus meant the admin closing an AfD had to weigh the arguments used. In my view the easiest way of doing that is if some indication of the weakness of each argument is given as it comes up. Hence I have restrained myself (I hope) from from having a pop at those who say "Keep per X". And as that becomes more frequent I am less likely to comment. I have been rather surprised that apart from Netscott nobody has started picking holes in the arguments any of the "Delete" editors are making. There is at least one embarassing hole in my own position (and no I won't tell you where). My most recent edit was only 24 hours (exactly) after the thing started, so it hadn't dawned on me that I might have been mistaken about the way consensus is determined. It's been a while since I contributed to one of these things but I remember an approach like this being taken on the Bobblebot debate (computer assisted human editor rapidly delinking dates, he got hammered and gets blocked periodically). This has been sent to Capitalistroadster, Alkivar, Kuzaar & Netscott. Love, peace and hair-grease --Stroika 21:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Prosecutions by Prophet Muhammad

Salaam, I was thinking that if an article can be created which would discuss all the reasons why Prophet Muhammad prosecuted these people. What I have understood so far, I wrote on Banu Nadir/mpov under Muslims explanation for prosectuion. It is very important because the battles and People killed by Prophet Muhammad is a very important part of Islamic history. And then a link to this article can be given on every page which would discuss such killings. This proposal can also be posted on Muslim Guild project. The work has to be top class because the way he is being portrayed, that doesn't make a good sketch of prophet Muhammad's personality in one's mind. SaadSaleem 07:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Prosecutions under early Islamic governments SaadSaleem 00:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

His Excellency

Sorry, I probably could have been more thourough there. As far as I can see, pretty much all of His Excellency's communications with that admin have been making incivil accusations, and the finality of the warning simply has to do with the fact that he's been warned about this repeatedly in the past. --InShaneee 17:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

A counterquestion: what's specifically right with his edit? Pecher 21:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it's up to the editor to provide evidence that the material inserted is relevant and supported by sources. This has nothing to do with assuming good faith. Pecher 21:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, why does what Aminz has inserted belong to the article? Pecher 21:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Netscott, the verse Pecher quoted (in Jizya section) comes along with the verses I quoted in the Lewis's book. For some reasons, only that verse was quoted here.--Aminz

Some diffs from other articles

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Najis&diff=52372278&oldid=52283450

Also, Pecher has not explained yet what I need to learn according to his comment. If you can ask him to let me know what I should learn about my religon, that would be great.

Also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Rules_of_war_in_Islam&diff=53199313&oldid=53198530

I was involved in this discussion, but this comment is not directed to me.

I'll provide more diffs. --Aminz 21:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Dhimmi

Netscott, Lewis says:

For Christians and Muslims alike, tolerance is a new virtue, intolerance a new crime. For the greater part of the history of both communities, tolerance was not valued nor was intolerance condemned. Until comparatively modern times, Christian Europe neither prized nor practiced tolerance itself, and was not greatly offended by its absence in others. The charge that was always brought against Islam was not that its doctrines were imposed by force- something seen as normal and natural- but that its doctrines were false.

He also says:

Under Muslim rule such a status was for long accepted with resignation by the Christians and with gratitude by the Jews. It ceased to be accepted when the rising power of the Christendom on the one hand and the radical ideas of the French revolution on the other caused a wave of discontent among the Christian subjects of the Muslim states, an unwillingness to submit to the humiliations or even to threat or possibility of humiliation, which existed in the old older….."

The article hides the fact that our moral standards has changed over time. It tries to make people judge the historical facts through modern eyes (rather than in their historical contexts). By doing so, the articles produces a negative picture of the history of Dhimmi's. But that's not what Lewis is doing. That's what polemics do (again according to lewis himself)--Aminz 22:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Netscott, unfortunately there is no much sources available on the internet. So, I had to get Lewis's book from the library. Netscott, I also have limited time. Studying Dhimmi is not my major. I however would like to be productive. Lewis's book is very rich. I like it. I expect the article should at least quote Lewis's work fairly. --Aminz 23:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

moving from the incident for discussion.

The latter case appears to be true, but I do not know if he created them all. I do know that there are some strange copyright/trademark things going on, several anonymous users that appear from nowhere, etc. The incident has been recorded. This really needs, maybe to go to several admins to look into, I think. I wish I could say more, but I don't have a good grip on the wiki-vocabulary yet for such things. Ste4k 13:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, just a late thought, I have suspended my own actions regarding this area. Ste4k 13:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Your WP:ANI report

No matter what in this case your commentary was improperly edited. That is bad. For now just let admins review your report and come to a determination as to the best course of action. Thanks. Netscott 13:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. Do you mean what I said in on the ANI page was wrong? which commentary on what page? Ste4k 13:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be courteous if you could advise the new user where he went wrong. --Nearly Headless Nick 13:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

starting over again

Hello Netscott, I think I understand what you mean now. And sorry about a confusion. When you replied in that admin page, I thought that you were an admin. And is it correct that what you meant to say was that the person who edited my commentary in the AfD was editing improperly? I thought you were saying that what I had edited in the Admin page was improper. So, please accept my apologies for misunderstanding you there. okay? :) Thanks Ste4k 14:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies too (in case I hurt a very valuable editor of the encyclopedia). --Nearly Headless Nick 14:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What is your opinion of this article section Netscott? I performed the research on the citations and edited them with dates, etc. If this book is truly notable, I think it would be fine to have an article about it, but that article must be factual and not based on propaganda. The spread of the other articles attached are all connected like a web and none of them have any real basis. It was my opinion that submitting them for deletion was the correct thing to do. The central article itself, on the other hand, is debatable. What does NOT need to happen, in my opinion, is another debate. What DOES need to happen though, is gathering of reliable resources, and quoting from them to make the article itself encyclopedic. Would you agree? Link to article Ste4k 14:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages: The nerds' front in the War on Terror

Well, here's some more polemic goodness.

Misplaced Pages has been turned into a soap box for anti-Islamic propaganda and hate speech. Bat Ye'or's insane rhetoric is being framed as fact here for God's sake.You already know what's going on here. By definition, a polemic is someone who incites a dispute. There NEEDS to be a dispute here. You're fine with Aisha being represented as a whore in her article, I'm not. You're fine with Muhammad being portrayed as an extravagant genocidal psychopath, I'm not. Yes, I am in fact 'hateful' of the bigotry that's flooded into this thing. I don't go about editing articles on Judaism, taking content out of Mein Khamph as if it's fact. That's what your friends do here. You're not of Muslim heritage, none of this means anything to you. People like Daniel Pipes has been open in saying the enfranchisement of Muslims in the US is a threat to Jewish interests. The lobbying groups backing him up have people like Bat Ye'or addressing congress. On the media front, everything on Muslims that US citizens are exposed to pushes the negative image. If you've ever lived outside the US, you'd know the difference. Enter a word on google or Yahoo, its Misplaced Pages entry is the first thing to appear in the list. And the first item which, given the popularity of Misplaced Pages, most people would probably click on, would present them with the most vilifying and negative POV-driven image of what Islam and Muslims are about. People get saturated with this view of Muslims, and they become less sympathetic when a needless process of war kills over 100,000 brown arab 'towel heads'. Guantanamos and Abu Ghraibs don't really bother them much anymore; given what they've heard about those A-rabs, they probably got what's coming to them.There's a reason why many European countries cut off freedom of speech when it serves the purpose of defamation.

So don't lecture me one way or the other. His Excellency... 17:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)