Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:40, 28 June 2006

Please do not simply revert edits

Geez, this place is like a place where everybody goes around knocking down other people's sandcastles with all sorts of lame justification such as "I don't like it".

From the rules:

Particularly, don't revert good faith edits. Reverting is a little too powerful sometimes, hence the three-revert rule. Don't succumb to the temptation, unless you're reverting very obvious vandalism (like "LALALALAL*&*@#@THIS_SUX0RZ", or someone changing "6+5*2=16" to "6+5*2=17"). If you really can't stand something, revert once, with an edit summary something like "(rv) I disagree strongly, I'll explain why in talk." and immediately take it to talk.

Do the whole gnarly Nash Hudson AMC Eagle timetable, it would be great! Then, you could leave out the musings out of the articles, and the template would just say it all. I am actually thinking of doing one or a few Simca/Rootes Group/Chrysler Europe/Talbot template(s), which would present a similar situation, and I have one good idea for it - why not mark the models (and, in some cases, model years) offered under different marques and different owners with different colours? An example of this being done with regard to something else is here. I hope I didn't make it too confusing :D

Anyway - do the template, it would be great! Have fun with it! Bravada, talk - 19:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Are You That Guy?

A better approach to your question would be to search the page history on the Matador and find out by comparing previous page versions. Going around asking people if they're the offenders is a tad militant. However, to answer your question: having checked the page history, I see that I have made only one edit recently, and it was relatively minor (relation to citations). Anyway, good luck with editing. -Litefantastic 02:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

F-14

Why don't you provide your source and respond to the criticisms on Talk:F-14 Tomcat?. --Mmx1 14:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Deletion log

Do not delete items from the deletion log. It is serious vandalism. Let the debate continue in an arderly fashion. --Bduke 00:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You're simply and utterly wrong, and I will call a spade a spade

I will call a spade a spade. You're wrong and the report you cite clearly contradicts the points you make - it says the Navy did NOT want an air superiority fighter. So far you've only revealed ignorance and misinformation the more you write and I have no hesitation in correcting your mistakes. I ask you to take some time and read the RAND report cover to cover and come back. I'm being kind in calling your edits "misinformed". I could be a whole lot harsher, but I will refrain from personal attacks. --Mmx1 19:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable evidence the F-14 is an Air Superiority Fighter

How does inclusion of the F-14 intertwined with the F-15 in the search for a generation of air superiority fighters not make it an air superiority fighter? How does the Navy's tasking of the F-18, which replaces the F-14, as an air superiority fighter make the F-14 not an air superiority fighter? How does the increase of wing area for agility make agility not a design goal? What we have here is a POV problem, and there are other ways about it than simply reverting good quality factual information. An short open source paper that omits the term "air superiority" does not the conclusion make, "the F-14 is not an air superiority fighter".

F-14 Tomcat - Misplaced Pages, the 💕 ... F-14 Tomcat was a United States Navy supersonic, twin-engine, swing-wing, two-seat interceptor fighter jet. The Tomcat's primary missions were air superiority

Military Factory - F-14 Tomcats Grumman&nbspF-14 Tomcat. Carrier Borne Air Defence / Air Superiority Fighter. KNOWN OPERATORS: United States of America (B and D models) Iran (A model) BASIC INFORMATION: Designation: F-14 Tomcat ... against ground targets, air superiority, and fleet air defense.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0216.shtml ... F-111 was not optimized for air superiority as the F-14 had been The "Hi" end was represented by the long-range, high-speed F-14 Tomcat dedicated air superiority fighter.

F-14 Tomcat 7th District American Legion of Wisconsin ... The Grumman F-14 Tomcat is a United States Navy supersonic ... missions are air superiority, fleet air defense, and precision strike against ground targets. The first F-14 flight was ...webpages.charter.net/.../F_14_TomCat_Era_Ends.htm - 39k - Cached - More from this site - Save

F-14 Tomcat ... The F-14 Tomcat, a combat-proven air superiority fighter, continues the U.S. ... of fleet air defense, fighter escort, tactical air reconnaissance and air-to-surface strike fighter ...www.is.northropgrumman.com/products/navy_products/f14/f14.html

Welcome to The F-14 Tomcat VF-211 : Fighter Squadron 211. The F-14 Tomcat. The Grumman F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic, twin-engine, variable sweep wing, two-place strike fighter. ... are air superiority, fleet air defense and precision strike against ground targets. Features: The F-14 has visual ...www.military.com/HomePage/UnitPageFullText/0,13476,700906,00.html - 18k - Cached - More from this site - Save

F-14 Tomcat - QuickSeek Encyclopedia ... The Grumman F-14 Tomcat (the F-13 designation was skipped ... missions are air superiority, fleet air defense, and precision strike against ground targets. The first F-14 flight was ...f14tomcat.quickseek.com -

Naval Test Wing Atlantic - Platforms Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division ... Description: The Grumman F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic ... are air superiority, fleet air defense and precision strike against ground targets. Features: The F-14 has visual ...www.nawcad.navy.mil/testwinglant/aircraft_details.cfm?platformID=12 -

Aircraft: Grumman F-14A Tomcat ... weapon system for fleet air defense, escort, combat air patrol, air superiority, and interdiction missions (2 CREW ... , AZ. The F-14 might not be the best aircraft ever build ...aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/grumman/f-14a.htm

Navy Fact File: F-14 Tomcat Information on hardware of the U.S. Navy ... F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic, twin-engine, variable sweep wing, two-place strike fighter. The Tomcat's primary missions are air superiority,

Grumman F-14 Tomcat - HOME ... shots of the F-14 let me first ... F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic, twin-engine, variable sweep wing, two-place strike fighter. The Tomcat's primary missions are air superiority, fleet air ...www.angelfire.com/stars4/f14tomcat

U.S. Military Fighter Aircraft Fighter aircraft used by the various branches of the United States Military Services. ... in a military campaign is more difficult. F-14 Tomcat Fact Sheet ... missions are air superiority, fleet air defense and precision strike against ground targets. F-14 Tomcat. The F-14 ...usmilitary.about.com/od/fighter

Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - F-14 Tomcat Grumman F-14 Tomcat history, specifications, schematics, pictures, and data. ... range air superiority fighter was accepted by the US Navy. This aircraft was ultimately accepted as the F-14 Tomcat, and ... wing geometry allows the F-14 to maximize range and ...www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14

F-14 Tomcat ... The F-14 Tomcat is the navy's air superiority fighter. It is the plane to have if your playing ... an enemy can put in the air before they can shoot back ...members.aol.com/CIOFAM/f14.html

F-14 Tomcat ... Description: The F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic, twin-engine, variable sweep wing, two-place ... include precision strike against ground targets, air superiority, and fleet air defense ...cpf.navy.mil/.../RIMPAC2004/aircraft_pages/F-14tomcatfactpage.htm

F-14 Tomcat Aircraft The F-14 Tomcat Aircraft of the US Navy entered the fleet in 1973. ... F-14 Tomcat Description: The Grumman F-14 Tomcat is ... missions are air superiority, fleet air defense and precision strike against ground targets. F-14 Tomcat Features: The ...inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bltomcat.htm

F-14 Tomcats - Military and Civilian Aircraft All about military and civilian aircraft, airplanes, jets, transports, passenger airliners and helicopters. ... Designation: F-14 Tomcat. Type: Carrier Borne Air Defence / Air Superiority Fighter. Contractor: Grumman ... strike against ground targets, air superiority, and fleet air defense. As a ...www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=63

F-14 Tomcat ... The Grumman F-14 Tomcat (specifications) is a twin engine, variable sweep wing, and air superiority fighter capable of ... simultaneously and attack six air-to-air targets with the AIM ...www.highironillustrations.com/commission_illustration/f14.html

'Top Gun' jets return from final combat Posted on 03/10/2006 9:33:43 PM PST by neverdem. ASSOCIATED PRESS. VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. -- There will be no more dogfights for the Tomcat. ... the past 30 years, the F-14 Tomcat has assured U.S. air superiority, playing a key role in ... 30 years, the F-14 Tomcat has assured U.S. air superiority, playing a key ...www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1594335/posts

Now does this mean the F-14 wasn't an air superiority fighter? 'Top Gun' jets return from final combat Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | March 10, 2006 | SONJA BARISIC ASSOCIATED PRESS There will be no more dogfights for the Tomcat. The F-14 entered service in the early 1970s to defend aircraft carriers from Soviet bombers carrying long-range cruise missiles.

REVIVAL OF THE AIR-SUPERIORITY FIGHTER (PDF) Chapter Five. REVIVAL OF THE AIR-SUPERIORITY FIGHTER. INTRODUCTION. The late 1960s and 1970s witnessed the development of two new Air Force. fighters—the F-15 and F-16—and two new Navy fighters—the F-14 and ... www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR939/MR939.ch5.pdf

http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/RANGEWEB/sectio14/sect14a.html ... the F-14 Tomcat aircraft are supersonic, tandem-seat, twin engine, swing-wing, all-weather, air-superiority, strike ... engine, all-weather, air superiority strike fighter and ...www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/RANGEWEB/sectio14/sect14a.html

HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft! Zuni Rocket Pod. Usually, Zuni rockets (5-in FFAR = Folding-Fin Air Rockets) are not the weapon for an air-superiority fighter like the F-14. It's more a rocket for air-to-ground attacks and close-in support strikes.www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-zuni.htm

F-14 Tomcat ... at Air Expo '01 here May 26 and 27. The F-14 Tomcat demonstration team will take the aircraft ... Tomcat's primary missions are air superiority, fleet air defense and precision strike ...www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/6_20/local_news/7302-1.html

F-14 Tomcat ... The F-14 Tomcat today: The F-14 Tomcat continues to be a premier long-range strike-fighter as evidenced ... The F-14's critical role in maintaining air superiority and its ability ...united-states-navy.com/planes/f14.htm

Aircraft/UAVs ... Intruder air frame ... F-14 Tomcat The F-14 Tomcat is a supersonic, twin-engine, variable sweep wing, two-place strike fighter. The Tomcat's primary missions are air superiority, fleet air ...www.exwar.org/Htm/9000PopA.htm

And your evidence that the F-14 was not, nor intended to be an air superiority fighter would be... The wikipedia article defines an air superiority fighter as one with good close combat characteristics and maneuverability, no? Disagreement is certainly understandable, but POV has no place on WP. --Wiarthurhu 19:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please Take a Step Back and do some reading before editing

After reading your edits, I have to ask you to refrain from editing aircraft-related articles until you've done some further research in the area. You have made demonstratively wrong claims and it would be to your benefit to do some more reading. You have variously claimed that

• maneuverability was the "most important" design aspect of the F-14. (blatantly false) Whether or not it factored into the design analysis, the fact remains that it was designed to shoot down Soviet bombers, a task for which maneuverability is not a requirement.
• "the decisive factor in all previous air battles, maneuverability". Also wrong. Many things decide an air battle, and most pilots will tell you, quite correctly, it's training and tactics. Having a better plane makes things easier, but the contemporary differences between different fighters is much smaller than the difference between a green and experienced pilot. Also, maneuverability is not the only design characteristic that matters nor is it necessarily the most important. In WWII, powerful fighters could "boom and zoom" - that is, dive, shoot, and fly away from fighters that could turn well, a tactic commonly used on the Japanese Zero. The Zero was a superior aircraft on paper, but nonetheless American pilots developed tactics to counteract those advantages and play to the strengths of American carrier fighters. The Zero was also poorly armored and its fuel tanks not self-sealing, meaning it was relatively easy to destroy. This also had the consequence of a higher attrition rate among Japanese pilots - reducing the experience of their pilot corps.
• also, your mistaken impression of the battles between McNamara's "whiz kids", the institutional bias toward the BVR fight, and the "fighter mafia". These battles are not won or lost one one report or event, but a constant struggle between different camps; one that continues today.

I bring these up not to embarrass you, as we all have to start somewhere. But your insertion of these falsehoods into wiki is lowering the quality of the encyclopedia, and I ask that you do some further research instead of pushing a black and white view of the world. --Mmx1 20:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope you realize that I am a published aerospace writer. My command of the topic is so extensive that my comments on the topic were printed in Aviation Week in the 1970s, when I was in high school, and was read by many generals, admirals, pilots, and aeronautical engineers of the period. The omission of the F-14's primary design goal across the entire Misplaced Pages space is a travesty and contrary to every printed book magazine article, and broadcast program (not a single one of which you accept as a citation) is evidently the result of the effort of only one WP editor with a strong anti F-14 streak. You have ticked off at least one F-14 community member who thinks your position is laughable at best, (see above "quality is only getting worse"). The world is not aware that the F-14 and all related pages is being guarded by an unleased attack editor who believes that the inclusion of the F-14 in a Rand chapter on "the return of the air superiority fighter" is proof that the F-14 was not designed to be a maneuvering air superiority fighter. I'm a masters graduate of MIT with a minor in aeronautical engineer, took classes with future secretary of the air force Sheila Widnall, got a 99 percentile on both math and verbal SAT, a published professional freelance writer, software engineer, personally demolished racial preferences at the University of California, and I have assembled and acquired dozens of scale model combat aircraft, and have a wall full of combat aircraft reference books (unfortunately packed for a move). I'd like to know what your qualifications are, and when you decided over the months that you tolerated the F-14 article that you decided in March of 06 to remove all references to the F-14 being designed to be an uncompromised air superiority fighter, and introduce the only oft-reproduced-across-the-web statement that the F-14 was not designed to be maneuverable. (ok you got me, they accepted the Phoenix missle, but that was the only compromise).--Wiarthurhu 21:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to be polite. But if you are a published aerospace writer that only illustrates the poor quality of the field. The points I raised above are all glaring deficiencies in your understanding of fighter design and history and your falling back on your "credentials" doesn't change the fact that you have serious misunderstandings of the topic. What, pray tell, did you write in Aviation week in the 1970's? If you think getting a "letter to the editor" published makes you a "published aerospace writer...read by many generals, admirals, pilots, and aeronautical engineers of the period.", you've got some ego issues. And frankly, who gives a shit who you took classes with? I've taken classes with Nobel Prize winners. Doesn't make ME a nobel prize winner. You're making these claims, not Ms. Widnall. 99% on the math and verbal SAT? that's relevant .... how? demolished racial preferences ..... so what? assembled and acquired dozens of scale aircraft.....that's so relevant. I don't need to toot my own horn, I've done my research and I know what I'm talking about. I've been willing to assume good faith until you opened your mouth and revealed your ignorance and bias in the subject. Care to rebut any of the points above? Particularly point 2? --Mmx1 21:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

F-14, part deux

How about addressing this before wholesale reverting my edits? I have laid out all the reasons and written a NPOV version. --Mmx1 22:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, put it here and let's see it.--Wiarthurhu 22:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

While you're at it, put this in.

http://www.topedge.com/alley/squadron/pac/vf124his.htm December 1973 saw Marine Corps officers report to VF-124 to start training as instructors. Marine Corps involvement continued until mid 1976, when the Corps finally decided the F-14 was too expensive for its needs, ending their requirement for aircrew trained on the type.

Just because you don't see a citation doesn't mean it's not true. What, there's something that I know about the F-14 that you don't? How could that possibly be?? Just where and how did you first learn about the F-14 anyways? I learned from Aviation Week and Janes since 1968 when the studies were first started. Your sources, and how much experience do you have in military aircraft research??

--Wiarthurhu 22:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

If you claim something is citable...it's generally a good idea to provide the citation as well. Here's an idea: click on the link Talk:F-14_Tomcat#Removed_para where I've laid out the reasoning.--Mmx1 22:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

USMC - more original research

So let's see..... your version:

In addition, the Marine Corps elected to wait for the F-18 to replace the F-4 , in a tradition of retaining less expensive but still effective weapons like the AH-1 Cobra and M-60 tank.

What the source actually says is that the USMC pulled out because the F-14 was too expensive. Again, you've taken a true fact and thrown in your own drastic oversimplification of reality. The AH-1 was not retained solely because of its cost; it was also simpler to maintain, had a smaller footprint, was rated for sea usage (the Brits had to redesign the Apache for sea duty), and maintained parts commonality with the UH-1, which the Corps retained for the light utility helicoper class. The M-60 was eventually replaced with the M-1, so your argument is moot. The Corps does not solely buy cheaper stuff because it's "tradition", it has different needs and it was determined (after 3 years of flying the F-14) that it didn't suit them for the cost. --Mmx1 23:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd still like to know how many military reference books you own, how many you've read, and how long you've been reading them, and how many degrees you have, how much have you been published, and how many years you studied aeronautical engineering. Or are you just amateur?? What makes you such an authority on the F-14 that you can declare 200 hits on "F14 air superiority" as invalid evidence that the two are somehow connected? --Wiarthurhu 23:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You're an amateur

You're an amateur, too, and damned if your own words don't prove it. Reading and owning books does not make on a professional. Nor is aeronautical engineering relevant to history. If you're so insistent on your publications, how about providing citations? What did you really write as a high schooler?

How about addressing the difference between a mission and a classification? The navy states the F-14 has the mission of air superiority, but describes it as a "strike fighter". I really don't care to argue it, it's a matter of semantics and I was never a fan of the air superiority fighter article itself, for exactly this argument. The "mission" has been applied to many aircraft, the "classification" has been very infrequently used until recently.--Mmx1 23:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You're an amateur too? I would never have guessed. Well you certainly pointed out the error on the US Navy's F-14 page about air superiority, didn't you? As an amateur, then, what are your qualifications? What would your resume state if I were to hire you onto the staff of Janes or Aviation Week, or even Air Enthusiast magazine? How many aircraft magazines have you purchased or read, or read in the library? I've read hundreds for over 40 years. You've not supplied even one statistic that backs the claim that you are remotely qualified to know what you are talking about, let alone qualify you to guard the F-14 article against all other Points of View. I'd tell cite the AW letters except they are packed up too. As far as I know, I have no reason to believe that you have even a bachelors degree, ever taken a course in writing or logic, ever wrote a computer program, or even held a job, let alone an IQ over 100, purchased, borrowed, browsed or even read a single book, magazine, watched any media or even visited an aviation museum exhibit on the F-14. You're up against an entire F-14 community that has all of the above. Did you put the citation in for me?--Wiarthurhu 23:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)