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I just received a legal threat over the phone about Yank Barry

The caller refused to identify himself, but "just wanted to let me know" that legal action would proceed tomorrow. I directed him to the Misplaced Pages legal department, but he insisted that it would be directed toward editors. - Richfife (talk) 17:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• A recent SPA
• A slightly less recent SPA

Neither of them seem to be on the verge of throwing around legal threats, though.

If you should get any more phone calls, do also let them know about the talk page or about OTRS (not in those words). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Also let them know that editing to balance the article properly continues - I've just blanked large parts of it per WP:BLP. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

There was undue weight, and use of primary sources, but some of the information removed appeared to be properly sourced - mainstream, non-tabloid newspapers - including one described as a newspaper of record, and was relevant to the article. Peter James (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

No good being appeared to be properly sourced. Get it right, then include it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

You're asserting that it was "not properly sourced", but not getting into specifics. How is it not properly sourced? The sources look fine to me and to multiple other editors. Almost none of the text removed by you was added by me, by the way. - Richfife (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

You may wish to notify the WMF legal department at legalwikimedia.org or, if you feel it is urgent, at emergencywikimedia.org where someone will make sure the right people see it. — MPelletier (WMF) 18:35, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify: please do not contact emergencywikimedia.org except to report serious threat of violence, suicide or death threat, bomb threat, etc. We cannot help with legal threats. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 18:39, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. Struck. — MPelletier (WMF) 18:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. Thanks! - Richfife (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Richfife, have you ever put your phone number on Misplaced Pages as a contact number? I ask because if you haven't, something is seriously wrong here. —Jeremy v^_^v 19:55, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I have not. However, as a personal point, I make sure I am easy to contact. I'm in the phone book, etc. As I mentioned though, there was no caller ID and the caller refused to identify themselves. So far, just a single data point. An attempt at a chilling effect, I assume. - Richfife (talk) 20:09, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Indeed it was. Has there been any particularly belligerent users or IPs editing about Yank Barry as of late? —Jeremy v^_^v 20:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Could be, could be - Richfife (talk) 20:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

You might do some Googling on your name and phone number. Someone out there might be bragging about having heckled you.--v/r - TP 20:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Eh. Let 'em heckle. - Richfife (talk) 20:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: "User:Richfife encouraged people to "heckle" him in person, and then they did so". Excuse me? Since when is having a listed phone number an invitation to heckle? All I said was I didn't care, not that I was encouraging it. Is there any actual evidence that I'm being heckled? I just checked and came up with nothing. Yank Barry has a history of attempting to shut down criticism and there's no evidence that this isn't more the same. - Richfife (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Guess what, buddy. Misplaced Pages is not your conduit to promote criticism of this Barry guy... we don't care about your cause any more than anyone else does. Begone! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that this was an off Misplaced Pages legal threat directed at multiple editors and needs to be taken seriously, right? - Richfife (talk) 22:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and I am taking it hugely seriously. Just look at my face. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned about the deletions made by Demiurge1000 being overreaction to the threat. It's well cited that the subject of the article was convicted of extortion. The Texas prison deal is also well cited. That deletion should have been discussed on Talk first. This article has been the subject of massive COI editing, extensive sockpuppeting, and is about someone who is heavily into self-promotion (he has a PR agency and is having a movie made about himself) and multi-level marketing. It was originally created by an SPA as a promotional piece, mentioned as such on the COI board, and then a number of experienced editors started finding more info about the article's subject. That's how we got here. John Nagle (talk) 23:19, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

No, see WP:BLP. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Particularly in regards to this edit, you've been repeatedly nakedly asserting that the sourcing isn't good enough and not responding to people pointing out that the sourcing seems fine and asking for more detail. Are you too busy in real life right now? What's going on? - Richfife (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The above brief "No" could use some expansion. Let's discuss the content issues on Talk:Yank Barry. Thanks. As for the threat, I've edited the Yank Barry article, I edit under my own name and am easy to contact, and haven't received any threats. John Nagle (talk) 23:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I think what Demiurge1000 means to say is WP:COATRACK. We have a BLP subject here where 85% of the article is negative. Per WP:UNDUE, the article needs to be balanced. The negative info needs to be rewritten in the way that it doesn't hijack the article disproportionate to this person's life.--v/r - TP 06:51, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

If ~85% of media coverage of the subject is negative, "balancing" the article would be what would make it POV/UNDUE. (Not saying that's necessarily the case in this particular case, but an "85% negative article" is not, necessarily, automatically UNDUE.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I've had much the same concerns as TParis since I first got involved at the article. It used to be more blatant, the article was using the "criminal" infobox and the lead focused more heavily on his legal problems. The difficulty we keep running into is that there are two kinds of sources for Yank Barry. There are independent sources which are overwhelmingly negative, and there are press releases (or news articles that cite press releases) that are positive. It's difficult to get a balanced article when the press is focused on the problems he's had, and when there is a very blatant PR campaign to improve his image (a PR campaign that extends to Misplaced Pages; the article has been hit multiple times by sockpuppets connected to his organization as well as this recent personal threat against Richfife). I first got involved in the article from a request at WP:COIN because of those problems. I wish there was reliable coverage of such basic biographical information as his childhood and family, his marital history, even his musical and business career. Maybe someone with better resources and/or research skills can help out. -- Atama頭 15:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

To help illustrate how widespread the problem at the article has been, here is a list of single-purpose accounts who have only edited this article or edited other articles related to Yank Barry, just in 2014 (there were more in the past):

• Gogvc (talk · contribs) - Since blocked for being a promotional account, username matches the domain name of Yank Barry's charity organization web site.
• Theprincessmom1 (talk · contribs) - A CU-confirmed sockpuppet of Gogvc, also blocked.
• Accurateinfo973 (talk · contribs) - The original creator of the article, now blocked for "editing against consensus, likely COI, plugging of one subject, etc.".
• Fmrjournalist (talk · contribs) - Blocked as a suspected sockpuppet of Accurateinfo973.
• Npl10 (talk · contribs) - Not blocked, and admittedly not editing promotionally, has only edited to remove information about an upcoming film Barry is allegedly producing.
• Bestmomever (talk · contribs) - A suspected sock puppet of Gogvc, CU says it is a "likely" match to Gogvc, the SPI case is awaiting administration.
• BeadCatz (talk · contribs) - Just showed up today, editing in a very promotional manner and without sources.

Again, this is just since January of this year. And this only includes the accounts, there have been numerous IPs making such edits, and there have been similar SPAs editing since the article's creation in 2010, including those whose usernames blatantly connected them to Barry's organization. -- Atama頭 17:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and new SPA BeadCatz (talk · contribs) just re-inserted the bogus info which Atama had just deleted. The subject of the article employs a PR agency ("The Publicity Agency", Tampa, FL) to polish his image, and that does seem to extend to Misplaced Pages. We've been to COIN twice, AN/I three times, and sockpuppet investigations as listed above. The edits driven by the PR effort are so inept and heavy-handed that they're more annoying than effective. Kind of like the anonymous phone threat. It may be time for semi-protection, just to reduce the noise level. John Nagle (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I warned BeadCatz after they violated WP:3RR at the article (they have reverted 4 other editors today). Another revert and I'll report at WP:ANEW (I won't bother to report someone for violating it if they hadn't been alerted to the rule first, especially a new editor - I assume they are new). Having SPAs show up to edit war and insert promotion isn't unusual at this article, unfortunately, and it's one reason why it has been a challenge to constructively develop it. -- Atama頭 18:33, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, BeadCatz, with a Misplaced Pages career of 2 hours, just hit 4RR at Yank Barry.. They've been reverted by three different editors, and given multiple warnings. Please pull their plug, and I'd suggest a week of semi-protection so we can do something else for a while. John Nagle (talk) 18:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting that the account was created in 2012. Are we dealing with a marketing firm sock farm?--v/r - TP 18:52, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I checked all the other possible socks listed above. All the others were newly registered, except for the one that created the Yank Barry article four years ago. John Nagle (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Dr Gonzo5269 (talk · contribs). It's like drinking from an SPA firehose. - Richfife (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, the Dr did make two other edits prior to posting to the Yank Barry talk page, to unrelated articles (the biographies of a professional wrestler and an American football player). So this doesn't fit the pattern of previous SPAs. Though it does seem odd to show up out of nowhere to make practically the same argument of older SPAs. Also, I checked the creation log and the new account was created 4 hours before the block of BeadCatz so that doesn't suggest block evasion to me. -- Atama頭 22:03, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Although the possibility they learnt the trick many SPAs learn of at least trying to appear interested in other stuff can't be ruled out. The account creation is interesting. Creating before a block isn't a definite sign that it isn't block evasion since it isn't uncommon among block evaders, particularly persistent ones, to create and perhaps even start using a sleeper before they are blocked. Particularly if it's clear they are likely to be blocked. However it seems BeadCatz only had one edit, to their sandbox, when the new account was created so it doesn't seem it was obvious they would be blocked, unless perhaps they'd been around long enough to recognise that there's a fair chance the BeadCatz would be quickly blocked. Alternatively, they may have been hoping for multiple simultaenous socks. Another possibility is there's some degree of meatpuppetry and the SPAs actually belong to at least 2 different people. In which case the BeadCatz and Dr could be different editors. Either way while it may be premature to block, I think the Dr account should be carefully monitored, although I also wonder if it will stay around anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards meatpuppetry right now, but the fairly advanced level of the edits (properly formatted external link summaries for instance) makes me wonder. - Richfife (talk) 19:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The new "Dr Gonzo5269" editor is commenting on the talk page, not editing the article. We can try to communicate with them. That's progress. I put a note to the Yank Barry PR operation on User_talk:BeadCatz#Promotional_editing, pointing out that what they're doing is counterproductive. Maybe they'll engage more. Note to Barry's PR operation, if you're reading this: Get one account, make it clear you represent Barry, and discuss what you want to say on Talk before editing the article. You might get somewhere. Using lots of new accounts making hit and run edits is not going to get you anywhere. Thank you. John Nagle (talk) 20:07, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

As pointed out I am a new account so I'm not totally clear what the issue is here but I do not appreciate my name being thrown around in this manner. I have many interests on Misplaced Pages. I am a fan of Steve Van Zandt and it was through following him I heard of Yank Barry. I remembered liking the song "Louie Louie" as a kid. I began to do some research and it was from that I learned of the multiple Noble Peace Prize nominations which I happen to find rather impressive. Any info I post about Yank Barry will be something that has been reported in the past. I do know the Richfife account replied to my post in a heartbeat. Does he have something against Yank Barry? From my limited initial research I have found mostly positive information about Yank Barry. He seems to be genuinely helping the refugees from Syria. I will continue my research as I am now thoroughly intrigued by this whole ordeal. I do not see why there is a fight here or why some editors are against Yank Barry. Having said that I am not a meat puppet, a sock puppet, and I certainly didn't call anyone. As long as I cite my sources I don't see any problem with having a positive opinion about Yank Barry, Stephen Neal, Ben Askren, or anyone else I decide to take an interest in. Thanks.--Dr Gonzo5269 (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Richfife continues adding unsourced material on BLP Yank_Barry

This user is clearly violating BLP rules and directly going against WP BLP rules. He has made a claim that the subject filed bankruptcy. This is a serious accusation on a BLP page. It must be backed up with actual and real court documents of the bankruptcy filing and charge off. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. But USer:Richfife continues to ignore this. This is not the first instance of his complete disregard for the serious nature of such actions on a BLP. There is a zero tolerance policy on this matter as outlined by Jimmy Wales policy here: Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information.

This page has seen so much negative and clearly biased postings aimed at causing financial harm to the subject. I went through the entire Talk:Yank_Barry#Nobel_Peace_Prize_nominee and was shocked to see this statement by User:Richfife, Don't kid yourselves: This page is the number one Google result for a search for "Yank Barry". We are threatening his livelihood (and rightly so. His means of livelihood is extremely suspect). So, as they say, buckle up. He can not defend the fluff that goes onto the page, so he won't. My guess is that he will periodically "wait for the dust to settle" and come back. Keep the page on your watchlists. on 03:59, 14 April 2014. This user should be blocked immediately to maintain the integrity of WP. (Ganbarreh (talk) 20:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC))

And how do we know you're not hired by Yank Barry to whitewash his article, hm? —Jeremy v^_^v 20:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Same way I might ask, Jeske, why I should trust you to be balanced and neutral about a topic of this nature? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

(EC to Demiurge) Ganberreh has, including this An/I post, 6 edits to his name, all about or on the talk page of Yank Barry, all made today despite the account being made on 23 May. If you've read the above thread, then you should know that there is a serious concern that that article is the centre of a concerted PR campaign, so a new editor coming on and joining the debate pro-Barry should be put under more scrutiny than normal. I suspect Ganberreh is associated with the PR campaign. —Jeremy v^_^v 21:38, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

We have a WP:RS reliable source for the bankruptcy. It's an article in ArtNews written by a notable Bloomberg writer, William D. Cohan. John Nagle (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The material on the bankruptcu is sourced, is sourced to a reliable source (the Montreal Gazette), and has been since it was added. The claim that we need court documents rather than newspaper coverage is a call for primary sources over secondary one, which flies right in the face of WP:SECONDARY. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Montreal Gazette is not reliable until you can proof it. That is a basic common need for all editors to be comfortable with the accuracy of the information. Unless you can get a copy of it an upload for reading, it is not reliable. If we accept this, there will be no end to editors say, "trust me" I have the backup. the burden is on you to backup your content, not the other way around. That is a basic requirement, you know that. Then ArtNews, if that one passing statement is accepted, then all passing statements on all the other articles written in so many articles I have found on CNN should be admitted. But those have been struck out claiming them to be not well sourced. We cannot have double standards and selective here. The standards of source acceptance need to apply to keep this page neutral. (Ganbarreh (talk) 17:30, 31 May 2014 (UTC))

from WP:OFFLINE "Misplaced Pages's reliable sources guideline states that articles should be sourced with reliable, third-party, published sources. Even though Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia, there is no distinction between using online versus offline sources. In fact, many great sources are only available offline." If you want to confirm an offline source, then you should be the one that looks through the Montreal Gazette's news archives. To claim that a source is not reliable because it is not online is complete WP:BULLOCKS. —Farix (t | c) 21:58, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

It is the burden of the editor who posted it to back up and confirm the source. (Ganbarreh (talk) 13:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC))

No it's not, Ganbarreh, please read WP:BURDEN. Per the footnote there, "Once an editor has provided any source that he or she believes, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material has an obligation to articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Misplaced Pages (e.g., undue emphasis on a minor point, unencyclopedic content, etc.)." At this point, you are the one with the obligation, per our verifiability policy. And you have two different sources to dispute now. -- Atama頭 16:22, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

As Atama has stated, Richfife has met his end of WP:BURDEN by providing a reference to a reference to a reliable, third-party source. You, however, are not assuming good faith by claiming that because the source is not online, it must be "fake" without providing any evidence to support your argument. —Farix (t | c) 12:03, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

We are threatening his livelihood and rightly so

That's a quote. Is that what Misplaced Pages is for? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it is a partial quote, missing an opening parenthesis... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:41, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

We have a reliable source for Barry's sources of income being somewhat sketchy, a CTV expose from 2002. Excerpt: "Barry then went after the better life with a vengeance. Today as a member of the ultra-exclusive Ocean View Golf Club, Barry claims he makes his money from VitaPro and managing offshore investments. But many people say that's just a cover. They think Yank Barry is just a smooth talker with questionable business practices. Investigative journalist David Marchant is one of the few reporters keeping an eye on the world of offshore banking...". The details follow at the link given. That CTV article is far, far more negative on Barry than the Misplaced Pages article. John Nagle (talk) 22:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's call a spade a spade: It was a wildly inappropriate comment on my part and I admit it. What I wanted was to point out was that this was a situation that was likely to spin out of control and I semi-consciously resorted to overheated language to make my point. I wound up making rather more points that I intended to. That being said, this is not a case where I'm standing on the mountaintop crusading solo against Barry. Many, many people are watching the article from both sides and I hope that we are all watching each other's backs to make sure we don't go over the line when it comes to the article itself. - Richfife (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

There's a problem with SPAs at that article. Agreed? There's also a problem with SPAs getting riled up to participate there because they think people biased against them are dominating the discussion there.

Did you give them a very good reason to think that? Yes.

Is there a lack of people willing and able to deal with the SPA problem there? No.

Richfife, would it hurt you a great deal to take a break from that article for a month or two?

The same question for the other accounts that have made a very large number of edits there recently.--Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:53, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

And you think that the endless stream of pro-Berry SPAs is going to take a break from the article because you ask then to? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:20, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The semi-protection will help. Since I'm not obsessed with the topic (and really don't care about it at all), I quite frankly have absolutely no objection to it being full protected until the SPAs (and other obsessives) get bored enough to either go away or discuss it properly on the talk page. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:33, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to think about it for a bit, but I'm leaning towards no for a number of reasons. First, whether you want to take it seriously or not, there was an effort to scare both myself and a number of other unnamed editors off the article IRL in the form of a threatening phone call. This brings things perilously close to negotiating with terrorists. Second, given the suspicion of of sockpuppetry, it's not clear who the editors with large numbers of edits actually are. Third, comment on the edits, not the editor. As of late, the majority of my edits to the article proper have been either obviously neutral or positive in nature. Fourth, lets call another spade a spade, I don't think you're particularly objective about me either. "Misplaced Pages is not your conduit to promote criticism of this Barry guy" doesn't exactly line up with the changes I've made to the page. I hadn't even heard of him until a routine run of edits to remove non-notable Nobel peace prize nominations sparked an explosion. - Richfife (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I've only made three edits on Yank Barry during May 2014. I'd been looking at business-related COI problems from WP:COIN, such as Banc de Binary, Riak, and Dun & Bradstreet Credibility Corp, where, like Yank Barry, there's heavy promotional editing. I've made lots of comments on the Yank Barry talk page after finding sources, and I've been on WP:COIN, WP:ANI, and WP:BLPN due to the COI/SPA/sock problems. I'd never heard of Yank Barry until the article popped up on WP:COIN. There's general consensus from the editors involved who have a track record on Misplaced Pages outside Yank Barry articles. Disagreements are hammered out on talk. There's no edit warring going on between any non-SPA accounts. All the trouble is coming from editors with very narrow editing interests. It's not clear how those editors are connected, but it's clear that as soon as one is blocked, another pops up. Admins, figure out a way to get us out of whack-a-mole mode. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 00:13, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Given that Richfife currently faces bullying in the form of legal threats, I support his brave decision to stay with the article. We should stand against such attempts to control who is involved in Misplaced Pages. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Since I seem to possibly be among the group mentioned in a post above, I will respond. I only care about the verifiable facts on any article I edit on Misplaced Pages. I only care about how articles reflect on Misplaced Pages's reliability as an encyclopedia. Sometimes when I find articles that are not as good as they could be, then I'll try to fix the issues whatever they are - that's what I'm here for...to edit. If other editors misinterpret my efforts to source statements, to keep a dispassionate tone, to maintain a neutral point of view in any Misplaced Pages article, as being either for or against any issue or person, that has not ever been nor ever will be my intent. I have attempted to discuss my edits on Yank Barry on its associated talk page. I have attempted to place Welcome templates on any new editor's talk page who edits the article. I have done nothing on the Yank Barry article that would necessitate my having to take a break from editing it, I have done nothing there that I need to apologize for. Shearonink (talk) 00:01, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Progress

There's been a little progress. We have some new editors working on the article, Editingisthegame (talk · contribs) (5 days on Misplaced Pages, made a few edits on other articles before focusing on Barry-related articles) and Ganbarreh (talk · contribs) (4 days on Misplaced Pages, Barry-related articles only). These new editors write on talk pages and can be argued with. This is an improvement over the previous long string of rather inept SPAs and socks. The new editors demonstrate some expertise with Misplaced Pages, so they're probably not really new. We'll see what happens next. It looks like we don't need admin intervention right now, but please keep watching the article. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 06:03, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but Ganbarreh reminds me so very, very much of Accurateinfo973, who also argued extensively on the article talk page. In particular, this comment to me smells fishy, with the phrase "malicious campaign" reminding me of this comment from Accurateinfo973 talking about a "smear campaign". The tendentious repetition of the same argument is also similar. I've been debating whether or not to make another entry at the SPI, I'm thinking I will now.

In the case of Editingisthegame, though, I don't feel like this editor is the same. They're new, yes, but they aren't focused on Yank Barry, nor are their edits promotional; to the contrary they've been arguing against Ganberreh too. They've been pretty even-handed both on the discussion page and on the main article, and I welcome their input. -- Atama頭 15:32, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I may have written my comment above too soon. Today we have new EditorLouisiana (talk · contribs), editing only the talk page of Yank Barry. The general editing trend of the SPAs is 1) insist that Barry was a member of The Kingsmen, and 2) keep the "Nobel peace prize nomination" in the article. It's going to be a long summer. John Nagle (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

As a relatively new person, I knew I would be open to suspicion the moment I posted something into the Yank Barry page. I read through the history of this page in all of the forms. My goal is to bring in honest, credible information to all the posts I am apart of on this website. These biography pages will be most people's first stop when researching people, so the information should not be full of promotional content and uncheck facts. My intent was not to rock any sort of boat. I do not mean to insist anything out of my discussions on the talk page other than facts that have sources. Editingisthegame (talk) 01:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

@Editingisthegame: I appreciate your contributions and I hope you continue your participation at the article, we can use your help. :) -- Atama頭 15:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Posts like this one shows that @Ganbarreh: is not showing any form of good faith relating to editors adding sources mentioning Barry's court case. Not sure what remedy there is for this short of blocking. But he has been told repeatedly in multiple venues by multiple editors now that sources don't have to be online to be reliable. But instead, he goes WP:IDHT. —Farix (t | c) 11:07, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Ganbarreh and sleeper account BlyMyShy (talk · contribs) as  Confirmed socks of Accurateinfo973.--Jezebel'sPonyo 15:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Ponyo you are again my hero. :) I was in the middle of doing SPI and gathering up evidence for Ganberrah when I noticed that you'd already blocked them for being a sockpuppet of Accurateinfo973. Thanks again! -- Atama頭 15:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

You're doing all the heavy-lifting in actually dealing with all of these sock farms and COI editors, I'm just pushing some buttons.--Jezebel'sPonyo 15:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

May want to look at EditorLouisiana (talk · contribs), another SPA that suddenly got involved in the Yank Barry article making the same exact arguments as Ganbarreh. —Farix (t | c) 21:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Dr Gonzo5269 (talk · contribs) may also be another sock as they are making the same WP:QUACKing sounds as the other two. —Farix (t | c) 21:28, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Ponyo! Can you check for socks one more time as of now? I'm really making an effort to keep my paranoia to a minimum. Honest. - Richfife (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the Yank Berry article is that it is replete with SPAs that are likely being canvassed offline; in other words, more WP:MEAT than WP:SOCK. The two accounts I named above are the only two socks explicitly tied to the Accurateinfo973 account. Remember, you don't need a positive CU results to block accounts for being disruptive SPAs. It may make the determination to block easier, but it's certainly not necessary.--Jezebel'sPonyo 22:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

If there is a case of WP:MEATpuppetry, wouldn't it be better to place the article under semi-protection? —Farix (t | c) 22:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It is already. The article itself is fairly quiet. The talk page and legal front less so. - Richfife (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I am sick to death of being called a meat or sock puppet. I have nothing to do with any other account on Misplaced Pages, this is my first one. I have nothing to do with Yank Barry and have not met him or any other living person who's page I have contributed. I went to school and studied research and writing. I happen to have an opinion that differs from another editor and that means I must be a sock? I have done nothing that hasn't been sourced and cited. I simply do not understand why if an editor supports anything positive about Yank Barry the reaction is to run to admin and try to get that editor blocked. What have I posted anywhere that is disruptive? I have posted nothing but opinions based on factual research and because it is positive I must be a puppet? That is ridiculous! How about having a discussion about why your opinion differs from mine as opposed to running and telling mom the socks are on the loose? I have posted zero fluff. I have not been on any sort of campaign for information that is not factual. This is absurd. I've contributed to several other living person's pages with positive, factual information and had no issues. I've repeatedly stated that I don't know what went on with this page in the past, but in the present I have done nothing to suggest fluff, socks, or meat. Can editors really not have differing thoughts on this topic? Absolutely ridiculous. I'll ask again, please refrain from dragging my username into this nonsense. I have posted nothing that is disruptive or not backed up by sourced, factual information. It was my understanding that editors were to assume good faith and I do not feel I've been given that benefit of the doubt. I've had to respond to my username being thrown around in this matter three times and that is silly on an encyclopedia page when I've posted nothing that is not cited or sourced. I've made zero arguments for any point that is not cited or sourced.--Dr Gonzo5269 (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dr Gonzo5269: To my knowledge nobody has directly accused you of anything yet. Here are the facts: we have an ongoing problem at the Yank Barry article where a series of accounts have been pushing a particular positive point of view, with the intention of removing any negative information about Mr. Barry and inserting positive propaganda generated by his public relations people. You should be well aware of this fact, it has been repeated to you more than once. So when a new account appears at that article (yet one more out of what is approaching at least a dozen such accounts) we are going to be suspicious. It would be foolish not to be.

My initial involvement with the article was to make it more positive (after I removed some bogus awards that his PR folks had inserted into the article that don't seem to exist), see here. The article initially had more of an emphasis on his criminal activity which I felt was overly negative. I didn't get any real resistance from my suggestions to change that. I then altered the infobox myself from "criminal" to "musician", and removed the info about his 10 months in prison from the infobox, because it was too negative. On the talk page, I've cautioned people about making the article too negative, and worked to include positive information. You can see here where I support including information about the play he produced in the 70s (and finding another source to support it). I argued that we should not have an entire section of the article devoted to an extortion conviction, and I lamented our lack of basic personal information about him.

My goal, and the goal of most editors at the article, is to make this into a good biography that is solidly sourced with interesting information. That has been repeatedly frustrated by the disruption caused by editors with the clear goal of promoting Mr. Barry. Maybe you aren't a member of that group of editors, but when you support their viewpoints and begin escalating your rhetoric by making some of the same accusations they have about other editors having a "negative agenda", yes, you are going to be poorly received. At this point you've given us reason to begin assuming poor faith on your part, if you want to be viewed differently then give us a reason. Stop lashing out as you have been and start trying to cooperate. Disagreeing is fine, it's how you disagree that matters. -- Atama頭 20:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, Atama, let me apologize. The problem is I have sourced and cited everything I've said. I have not argued for anything that is untrue to be added. Anything I add get's deleted. That is very frustrating. What gives one person the overall say over what goes in and what does not? I am a little angry that editors do not assume good faith when I am not saying anything that isn't sourced! I have provided links to support my case. I am not running around posting fluff or absolutely anything that is untrue. It is very frustrating to be ratted out to admin (this is the 3rd time now) just because you happen to have a positive opinion about information that is easily cited. I'm going to keep trying to improve the page with positive, factual information that is cited and let editors keep deleting it. I am doing absolutely nothing wrong. If I say or post anything that is not fact then please, please call me out on it, but to this point I have done no such thing.--Dr Gonzo5269 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Legal theat, round 2

I have received a letter from Philip D. Dapeer, an attorney in the Los Angeles area. He writes "I write at the request of Mr. Yank Barry who has retained my law firm with respect to the negative and defamatory postings and edits you have made to Mr. Barry's web page on Misplaced Pages". ... "Mr. Barry is prepared to proceed forthwith with the filing of an appropriate action for defamation ..." Amusingly, Dapeer claims "Mr. Barry is not a public figure". The letter is addressed to three other persons besides myself, but I won't list them here due to Misplaced Pages's "outing" policy. More later. A copy of the letter has also supposedly been sent to the general counsel of the Wikimedia Foundation. This is going to be interesting. John Nagle (talk) 23:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I've also received that letter. The letter does indeed claim he's not a public figure, which is followed by a list of celebrities who might also be harmed, somehow. Kinda a mixed message there. Irritatingly, I have not linked my username with my real name, and I appreciate User:Nagle not outing me. I'm not naive enough to think that's any sort of protection from this silliness, but I'd still rather keep it that way. I've made a whopping 5 edits to the page itself, 2 being minor, none of which seem all that contentious. Most of my contributions have been to the talk page, most of which can be boiled down to "better sources should be found". I don't express a lot of patience for the parade of SPAs, but most of my comments have been part of an ongoing dialog with many other editors, so I'm frustrated that I've been singled out like this. Grayfell (talk) 01:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Not to imply that the other editors do deserve to be singled out! Sorry, that didn't come out right. Grayfell (talk) 03:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I've sent a note off to the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel, with an image of the threatening letter. This is going to take some coordination, because four editors are named. That makes it important for the Foundation to be involved, because this isn't about one person doing something - it's about the overall operation of Misplaced Pages when faced by an aggressive PR push. Meanwhile, there's yet another brand-new Barry-only editor, Booknona (talk · contribs), but he's only editing on the talk page so far. I suggest semi-protection on the article while the legal dispute proceeds, as an appropriate interpretation of WP:NLT in the presence of heavy sockpuppeting. Sigh. John Nagle (talk) 06:42, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

It's already been semi-protected through August.--v/r - TP 17:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Should probably be locked completely for editor's protection at this point. Since every time an editor edits the page they are republishing the info, its the individual editors who are liable should the lawyers decide to get more serious. Its one thing denying threats of legal action, its another when they are clearly preparing to take it further. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

It's up to individual editors to determine if they are going to take that risk. If we lock a page for every legal threat, we're going to create a system where folks can get articles locked at will by paying a $20 court fee in the right district. Besides, Wikipedians don't need admin-type nannys telling them where they can or cannot edit for their own good.--v/r - TP 18:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Fine, so perhaps sticking a disclaimer at the top of the article/talk/edit page 'edit and be warned lawyers are afoot'? Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

As one of the people threatened, I'm not asking that the page be locked. A high visibility warning for "lawsuit threatened" would have a chilling effect. Doing either is a significant policy decision not to be made lightly. The talk page mentions the legal threat, so it's not a secret from editors. I've been in touch with several lawyers. More next week, after the lawyers report back. Meanwhile, don't panic. John Nagle (talk) 06:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Nagle. There really isn't anything that can be done until we have more info about the legal issues. —Jeremy v^_^v 05:37, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest that those individuals threatened who are consulting with attorneys seek their attorney's clearance before posting any statement; nothing sucks more than getting hamstrung by your own client, especially on accident, because they said the wrong thing in a context not protected by attorney-client privilege. I think generally we may want to just call for a statement from the Foundation. (p.s., I am not a lawyer, etc.) —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 06:02, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm cautious about that, but if you're too cautious, the people making legal threats win. Anyway, over at the article, there remain some editors that edit like SPAs, but for now they're being reasonably polite and not making big changes against consensus. The article still needs lots of experienced eyes on it, but no immediate admin actions seem necessary. (On an unrelated note, COI problems are building at Banc de Binary. If you have time, look over there.) John Nagle (talk) 18:41, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Inadmissible personal attack

I have been critical of the sourcing of the article Democracy & Nature. As a result, I was accused of "trying to destroy" the article on the talk page. The article is now at AfD. I requested at the talk page to refrain from personal attacks and was now answered with this edit, which I think is absolutely and totally inadmissible. --Randykitty (talk) 22:19, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

They've already slipped to Godwin's Law? Not a personal attack - not civil, but not an attack the panda ₯’ 22:21, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the attack, as well as the earlier attack in the header of a talk page discussion, and warned the user. Gamaliel (talk) 22:24, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• I disagree. The implication is clear. I'm a Nazi book burner. This kind of insult is inadmissible. --Randykitty (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I think you mean impermissible. Anyway, it's a stupid thing for the other party to say, but a sanctionable personal attack? Meh. All too often, people get frustrated and say stupid things that only hurt the discussion. Under ideal circumstances we ignore that and try to keep things on topic. If the incivility or even personal attacks don't disrupt the discussion, then the discussion can be handled normally. If it persists, then sanctions can be considered. I don't think we're to the latter point, even though there's apparent excessive personal discussion at the talk page. In short, I don't see the need for sanctions just yet, though it would be good for an admin to keep an eye on the dispute. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:35, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• No, I mean inadmissible (Concise Oxford Dictionary, 6th ed., Book Club Associates, 1977, p. 543). :-) --Randykitty (talk) 10:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It was NOT an attack and it was NOT a comment. I explained to "my friend" that I'm busy reading about Nazi book burnings (a very important historical event) so I do not have the time to comment to his claims. I have more important things to do. It looks like that some people are more sensitive than others and in the case they happen to be wiki administrators who knows all the tricks and rules etc they use them for no reason. Another problem is that my talk page is not really mine. Someone comes, delete what he believes is not an appropriate behavior and later he open a discussion about. I though it must be the other way round. You open a discussion and at the end you delete or not the comments, attacks or whatever. I though wiki is an open project but looks like its semi-protected and semi-open. Some views are allowed while others not or with other words you have to fight to prove that you are not an elephant. I’m afraid what is left from the poor liberal democracy (Freedom of speech) now is demolished by the hands of some wiki administrators (bureaucrats). Nikosgreencookie (talk) 23:03, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh fee and faw. This diatribe strongly suggests that you are not here to write an encyclopedia. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 23:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

See my editing history to see why I'm here. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 23:26, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

A correction: The phrase "Another problem is that my talk page is not really mine." I wrote above is not correct because my "not civil behavior" took place at the D+N talk page not mine. The rest is ok. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 23:46, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

You also have a bizarre belief that you have "freedom of speech" on a private website. That's funny. Don't make that mistake again. the panda ₯’ 00:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Note: Nikosgreencookie has now inserted an enemies list on their user page . Rgrds. --64.85.215.195 (talk) 01:25, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Idols. Not Enemies. It’s my personal page and I use it in any way I believe is appropriate to help me doing good work as regards wiki editing. I have to follow the great actions of my personal idols to be able to improve myself as an editor and a man. And who are you? If you don’t mind. You are not here to write an encyclopedia Nikosgreencookie (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I've removed your 'tribute'. You're digging yourself a hole here. Gamaliel (talk) 02:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The above comment: "You're digging yourself a hole here." is a personal attack. Please see: WP:NPA. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 02:36, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

You should probably take a break from Misplaced Pages for the day and return when you have calmed down. Gamaliel (talk) 03:07, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

To even consider "You're digging yourself a hole here" to be a personal attack says a lot. Not everyone can figure out how this place works. Doc talk 03:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, Misplaced Pages is neither a battleground, nor a court of law. Nikosgreencookie's behavior is simultaneously disingenuous and inflammatory. I would support an indefinite block, whether because this individual is not here to contribute to the creation of an encyclopedia, or because he or she is engaged in trolling. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 03:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

What you say is no sense. Just check my long editing history to see my contribution to wikipedia. The rest is cheap stuff. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 03:45, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Second that support. This user seems determined to convince people they are here solely to be disruptive. Gamaliel (talk) 03:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Nikosgreencookie (talk · contribs) seems to do some decent gnomish referencing work that is beneficial. The recent edits (including to his "own" page") are decidedly not so good. Per WP:POLEMIC I removed his updated list of "idols" (which I was flattered to be among ;). If he reinstates them, he's in trouble. I don't think that he's a troll, and so I wouldn't vote for an indef right now. Let's see what he decides to do next. If a swift kick doesn't do it, so be it. Doc talk 04:25, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The suggestion that "you're digging a hole" is a personal attack is on the same level as the claim that being told to "drop the stick" was a threat of violence. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:28, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Meh. Indeffs should not be proposed for WP:NOTHERE reasons. It's not even policy: it's an information page with a wide ranging list of behaviors that could indicate why an editor should be blocked. But blocked for what? Not being here to build an encyclopedia? Seems very subjective, no? This says we block for either protection or disruption. "NOTHERE" should never be linked in a block notice, nor it is ever a good enough reason to block outright. Now I'll get off my soapbox. Doc talk 05:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't intend to start an argument on this issue, but I think it's fairly clear that this individual is engaged in disruption, and that his or her disruptive behavior will continue. Admittedly, NOTHERE itself is not always the clearest reason for sanctions, and in many respects it's the shortcut du jour—I recall some years ago that arguing that someone was a "net minus" was in vogue as a reason for blocking in spite of a history of positive contributions. Nevertheless, disruption is disruption, even if it's not primarily happening in articlespace (e.g., compiling shitlists in userspace, IDHT behavior). Anyhow, yes, WP:NOTHERE is an essay, but it's an essay interpreting policy; there's nothing wrong with blocking for complex reasons so long as the reasons are summarized in the block log, and a link to an essay is good enough for that. If it's an improper block, the community should clarify that the rationale articulated in WP:NOTHERE is invalid as grounds for a block. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 05:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The punishment needs to fit the crime. I see no evidence to support an indefinite block on this editor. We don't toss someone aside based on the assumption that "his or her disruptive behavior will continue". How do you know that for sure? His only block was a 24-hour edit-warring block in 2012. He's upset with things here right now, and may very well calm down and move on productively. If he won't listen, and there is further disruption, he can be blocked. Doc talk 06:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me the action of the person behind the ip 64.85.215.195? I mean 64.85.215.195 appeared 3 times since 2005. @ 9 october 2005 @ 14 august 2010 and @ Yesterday. And for what? To send a "signal" to the "very right place" about my behavior in my personal wiki page. Is he a magician? I find it suspicious. It makes me to believe that he was intervened just because someone else asked him to do so. Is here base for me to claim that 64.85.215.195 is engaged in trolling? And if yes what actions must be taken? Any opinion and advice is welcome. Especially by Doc. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 10:16, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Not remarkable. Lots of people edit from IPs, and people do get new IPs all the time. Could also be someone who accidentally logged out and doesn't want to out himself now by claiming the comment. In short, it doesn't really matter. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 10:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Doc talk 10:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• ...and there's no such thing as a "personal wiki page" on Misplaced Pages - you have a user page and a user talkpage that are the property of the Foundation, to be used according to the policies you agreed to. One provides some info about yourself and your interests, the other facilitates communication. If you have a "personal wiki page", that means you must have installed some type of wiki software elsewhere :-) the panda ₯’ 10:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Indefblocked. In my opinion, this post by Nikosgreencookie's, in a talkpage discussion entitled "Randykitty's attempt to destroy the article (24 May 2014)", a section created by Nikosgreencookie themselves, is indeed inadmissible, since it does imply, or rather in a sneaky way does say, that Randykitty is akin to a Nazi bookburner (and has "burned" sections of the article in an attempt to destroy it, like the Nazis burned books so as to destroy them). The people who make light of it above may possibly be missing some context. Anyway, users can lose their temper, no doubt. But Nikosgreencookie's response in this thread shows him as not out of temper/out of control, but instead as a troll doing the "plausible deniability" dance: "It was NOT an attack and it was NOT a comment. I explained to "my friend" that I'm busy reading about Nazi book burnings (a very important historical event) so I do not have the time to comment to his claims. I have more important things to do." I won't even dignify that with the appellation of wikilawyering; it's pure trolling and taking us for a ride. And also further embellished with the suggestion that if Randykitty unaccountably takes the reference to reading about Nazi bookburnings as not merely an explanation of why Nikosgreencookie is so busy, then that shows that Randykitty is oversensitive "It looks like that some people are more sensitive than others". A classic troll. The follow-up trolling on his userpage doesn't exactly help, either, but it's the original attack + the denial of it that's my focus. If somebody wants to unblock, I won't stand in the way, and they don't need to consult me first, but I hope they'll only do it if there's a decent unblock request without any dancing in it. I hope there will be one; I've no wish to keep this user blocked infinitely. I hope nobody thinks I'm defending Randykitty because he's an admin; on the contrary, I'd block in stronger terms and with a stronger comment about unblock conditions if he wasn't an admin. Admins do need to put up with more than other users. But no user should be expected to put up with that. Bishonen | talk 18:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC).

I support the block. I was thinking the same thing earlier. This is someone tweaking the nose of the community and being disruptive for fun. -- Atama頭 22:25, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I stand by my opinion that this is not a troll. It's a misdiagnosis that is all too common. "Trolling is a deliberate, bad faith attempt to disrupt the editing of Misplaced Pages. Ignorance is not trolling. Genuine dissent is not trolling. Biased editing, even if defended aggressively, is in itself not trolling. By themselves, misguided nominations, votes, and proposed policy are not trolling. They are only trolling when they are motivated by a program of malice rather than ignorance or bias." I do not see such an intent. YMMV. Doc talk 01:14, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I disagree, but reasonable minds will sometimes disagree. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 01:15, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

But behavior that is indistinguishable from trolling can only be defended as 'not trolling' for so long. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:01, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Where is the evidence of his intent of malice? Or gaming the system? Those two diffs above make him a troll?! I'm not saying I unwaveringly support this editor by pointing out that he's not a troll. So he unadvisedly used the term "Nazi": a major "hot button". Some other things need to be addressed as well. But a troll is a troll. This editor has done a lot of decent referencing work up to this point. 1 prior edit-warring block is insufficient evidence of a problem troll that must be indeffed. I shudder to think how an editor like "Jack" was sheltered here and repeatedly unblocked for so long by those who are now so quick to declare an editor like this a "classic troll". Doc talk 03:30, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The current unblock request is exactly the sort of problem that led to the block. Convenient claims that something problematic before is not so rather than owning up to the impropriety of what was said and agreeing to change is as much of a problem as the original improprieties. Coming here with blatant nonsense like the above claims that the Nazi book burning comment was a reference to something else... it's just continuing attempts to skirt responsibility for making uncivil comments. Furthermore, indefinite ≠ infinite: as Bishonen indicated above, the intent is not to permanently remove this person from the Misplaced Pages community, but rather to do so while the threat of ongoing disruption was there. Anyway, I won't disagree with the claim that not everyone would agree with a block here, but it's one of those things best left to individual admin discretion. If someone thinks the unblock request is credible and addresses the reasons behind the block, then by all means they should unblock. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 19:17, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Update: As of this morning, Nikosgreencookie has filed his/her fourth unblock request, which like the other three shows no sign of taking responsibility for the problems that led to the block. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 13:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

PoV pushing. WP:3RR, political allegiance, bias, and so go on

There's currently a long tiresome edit conflict going on on the Iran page (and some pages related to it) wich consists of constant reversions, edits based on personal opinion, and a violation of WP:3RR as I see it. None of them resort in discussing it, and therefore resort to spamming undo's/RV's. The users I'm talking about are Arvid Qasemy (talk · contribs), Qizilbash123 (talk · contribs), and User:Soroush90gh (He's in a completely different way related to the topic unlike User:Qizilbash123 and User:Arvid Qasemy). User:Qizilbash123 is neglecting and declining the reliable facts and keeps spamming reverts and undo's. He's constantly removing the sources and statements given and replacing them with sources given or favoured by the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, neglecting and removing all other souces that are already given (if you check the edit history of the page and of his own you see that he's deliberately pushing on certain things such as lowering the amount of Iranian casualties in the war, or even resorting in removing the fact that the Iranian women protested against the newly inposed Hijab laws), or just merely replaces them with his own sources of a different opinion. He's heavily pushing an agenda and being a total nuisance to the Misplaced Pages community by doing so. Here some minor examples of his work both on the Iran article, and other related Iranian articles; ], ], ], ], ] (Can it get more obvious than this last one?)

He also violates WP:3RR here -> (links ], ], ])

(01:53, 3 June 2014‎ Qizilbash123 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (134,872 bytes) (-226)‎ . . (Undid revision 611310437 by LouisAragon (talk)) (undo | thank)) -

(14:02, 3 June 2014‎ Qizilbash123 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (135,307 bytes) (-226)‎ . . (Undid revision 611346894 by Soroush90gh (talk)) (undo | thank)) -

(23:51, 3 June 2014‎ Qizilbash123 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (134,872 bytes) (-1,286)‎ . . (restoring stable version without A. Qasemy's photos and Soroush90gh's bias) (undo | thank)

Then we have User:Arvid Qasemy who constantly keeps editing and reverting the same Iran article with redundant edits purely based on his personal opinion without any edit descriptions given or any consensus, and also doesn't seem to care a bit about the constant rv's/undo's that are going on. being a total nuisance on his own. He's also removing completely well written pieces without any reason or any edit summary given (such as here ]). Note how both him and Qizilbash123 didn't even bother once to reach a WP:CON during all this time. Finally we have Soroush90gh despite he's not doing any PoV edits or whatsoever or anything going in against Wiki law so far unlike Qizilbash123 and Arvid Qasemy, he still keeps the nuisance triangle as I call it alive as he keeps undo'ing and reverting it like Qizilbash and Qasemi. Seeing that he couldn't reach anything with them, he should've brought it to the mods a whole lot earlier. Make a visit to the edit history of the article if you want't to see more ].

I don't know what precise penalties should be given to wich people in question here, but this nuisance should be stopped as soon as possible. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

First of all I suggest LouisAragon to WP:CALM a little bit - I just saw his actions on other article (disputed below) and I agree with his edits, but his summaries sound as yelling or even threats. As I understand from rules, person engaged in edit checking should be cool and discuss, not avoid it. Prior of removing image from "Iran" article I backed it with explanation on talking page, and prior of planned replacing climate map I also made proposal about it. I gave advice to user Arvid Qasemy to do the same thing, and I believe his edits are good faith and only problem is that he's making changes without discussions. However, in case of user Soroush90gh we have similar problem but with obivous bad faith: he has inserted irrelevant photo with biased description few months ago without any discussion, and he's desperately trying to keep it inside by forcing edit wars. Considering he also avoids all explanations and discussion, it's pure WP:BIGOTRY. --Qizilbash123 (talk) 02:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Btw, I didn't get what's wrong with removing biased assertions like this] or even conspiracies about "World richest man"]. Last one is example of childish dispute by political fractions, revolutionaries have claimed Pahlavi had "$20 billion" and now monarchists claim Khamenei has "$95 billion". Of course, no Forbes or any other serious sources for it, except of their pamphlets. --Qizilbash123 (talk) 02:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I've already warned Qizilbash123 about edit warring on the Iran article. The way I see it, we've got two options here. Either block all three indefinitely, or the articles are locked and we force discussion on the talk page to reach a consensus. My preferred option is the latter. Mjroots (talk) 05:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey, it's Arvid Qasemy. Thanks to you dear LouisAragon for being such an active and careful user, and to dear Qizilbash123 for his help and advice. I believe that I am an amateur here, I'm new to this system, and your critique of my work is right, but I also believe that I can defend my activities. I'm not trying to remove or completely change an information, I'm just trying to use better photos and add some new and notable information. Such as the information about the Religion, which (thank God!) is not removed, except my other edits. And I wonder why do you guys remove the photo and information about the "protest of Iranian women against the hijab and new rules"?. It IS an important event. I will try to use what I've learned here, write the summary and my reasons, and do the edits again. I'm doing this all in order to improve this page. Please trust me and help me in this flow, and if I did a wrong thing again, just let me know and I will try to correct my works. Thank you so much. Arvid Qasemy (talk) 09:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a complicated issue. Let me explain. The user Qizilbash123, is going to simply distort the history. He is self-declared representative of all Iranian women. Let me talk about one of his views. He has stated that ALL Iranian women are happy to have Hejab, and those who aren't, are just "westernized minority". I'm not sure, maybe he is right, but I know just one point, here, in WP, you have to present resource for any single sentence. Soroush90gh (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Qizilbash123, what are you talking about? If you check the posting history on the Iran page and compare the dates with the dates from the sections you made at Talk:Iran, one can easily see that you were edit warring at first, and then resorted to edit warring and posting on the talk page at the same time. Instead of wasting your time there being a nuisance to the community seeing you couldn't push for a WP:CON with neither of the other two users in question, you should've brought it to WP:ANI wich could've solved everything much earlier without all this edit warring.

The fact remains, all three users keep the cycle alive and are currently quite a nuisance to the community with these continuous edits and reverts, while no single one of them bothered to have it solved per correct Wiki policy. All of them believe they're right, but no single one of them has shown as of why he is right with a reached consensus. Working per "reaching a consensus per edit warring and reverting" as we can call it. Take a look at here again please ]. Even without the disputes solved, it still continues ].

Based on all this, I have to agree with User:Mjroots based on how to reach a a possible solution here. Seems there's no other way. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:00, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Soroush90gh, you're the one who's disorting history - I gave source and you didn't prove anything but accusations and edit wars.:::LouisAragon, I'm not wrong when I say Soroush90gh has inserted disputed photo months ago.] --Qizilbash123 (talk) 05:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

LouisAragon asked me to take a look at this yesterday. It looks like this dispute has settled down a lot, just judging by the discussion at talk. There was one revert earlier today dealing with some content... but nothing egregious. If slow revert warring continues, I would support temporary page protection as a measure to try and force more discussion. As to whether there's POV pushing going on here... I honestly don't know enough about the content area to make a fair determination. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 15:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Abusive and disruptive static IP needs blocking

Can someone block 76.94.140.31 please to put a lid on their abuse and disruption. The IP appears to be static. The block should probably be indefinite. For evidence, pick pretty much any of their edit summaries or talk page soapboxing from Special:Contributions/76.94.140.31. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:55, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is a (wo)man with a worldhistorical mission to save us from ourselves, and see 'Islamic' 'antisemitic' cockroaches everywhere on wikipedia and just needlessly coerces editors to waste time reverting the nonsense, or replying to vile innuendoes. Worst of all, (s)he has zero knowledge of wikipedia policies and the subject matter, and there is no sign (to the contrary) that tolerance will eventually lead to some change in attitude.

• 'Sorry I forgot that only Musoims ar e allowed to improve aricles'
• 'Sean hoyland anisemite who thinks he rules wiki' WP:AGF
• 'far-left nutjob' WP:BLP
• 'Police confirmed it was a jihadi cockroach'
• The most distressing thing is that the editor's fingers have an aleatory relationship to the characters on the keyboard, and those of us who suffer from apoplexy at orthographical lapses are sorely tried while most editors have to google desperately to figure out who 'anisemites' and 'Musoims' might be. Nishidani (talk) 08:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you two be banned for your anti-Jewish propaganda. You have no knowledge of Jewish history. Talkpage soap boxing, I asssume you mean responding to and countering anti-Jewish propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.140.31 (talk) 09:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The above message suggests an imminent change in behaviour is unlikely; blocked for one week. Yunshui _水 09:15, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

FYI – This comment on 76.94.140.31's talk page seems to have been missed: Let it be known that legal action will be taken soon.--Auric talk 00:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep that's an unequivocal legal threat.(see below) A longer block would be warranted, though likely not indefinite: according to the geolocation tool the IP is at least part of a dynamic pool. I also think we're close to where revocation of talk page use would also be warranted (diff, diff, and maybe this diff which refers to an editor's religion, evidently as a factor in declaring his edit to be vandalism). —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually, look at the block log. That legal threat already netted the IP a week-long NLT block. Anyway, I think revocation of talk page access (which also happened with the last block) is still warranted. Possibly consider extending it to a month in light of the other diffs I presented above? —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I've revoked talk page access due to the continued racist attacks and extended the block (hope that's ok Yunshui) to one month as the IP appears static and there is zero collateral.--Jezebel'sPonyo 15:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

No objections here; good call. Yunshui _水 18:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• In case anyone was wondering, this IP is User:JarlaxleArtemis. I've extended the block. NawlinWiki (talk) 21:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

@NawlinWiki:, are you able to have a look at Special:Contributions/2606:6000:F241:7A00:1968:5CD3:258F:1558 and Special:Contributions/2606:6000:F241:7A00:819A:D74A:3062:DBE6 who appeared just after 76.94.140.31's block to see whether they are also JarlaxleArtemis ? I'm not sure whether the use of html encoding (e.g. ) is a clue. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:58, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• They are, and it is. Thanks, NawlinWiki (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

@NawlinWiki:. He's back, Special:Contributions/2606:6000:F241:7A00:14EE:70C7:8203:47DC Sean.hoyland - talk 11:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Coming in from multiple IPs.... Zero 13:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

He's back again, check my contributes for a list of IPs to block. Sepsis II (talk) 05:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Arsène Auguste / Administrator User:GiantSnowman

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have just invested about 1.5 hours to add to the article Arsène Auguste (see diff). Administrator User:GiantSnowman thinks, he can make a 100% revert, because he thinks inline references and POV, or whatever. All information I have integrated into the article can be gleaned from the links I have provided. I am not a 24/7/365 Wikipedian and simply cannot afford the time to perfectly document according to most detailed suggestions. Of-course, we can have a myriad of articles consisting essentially of two sentences following artful all the highest principles, with five references of for all the most trivial details interrupting every sentence two times, etc, then we mark them stub and hope that somebody will write something to an article that has marked it as low in importance and low in quality and then put some markers on the page of the article. When I want to write an academic work, probably, I will not select a topic low on anybodies importance and quality scale, etc., but rather more interesting subjects such as Martim Francisco, or Nicolas Ladany when I can afford the time. For this I then get generally rewarded by a reviewer with low importance and start class in terms of quality. Anyway, I find it more rewarding, when the Guardian quotes my research, Jonathan Wilson quotes at length in on of his books from one of my articles or FIFA uses in its most recent magazine a graphic created by myself.

I suggest, the Administrator User:GiantSnowman can select to request a reference in an article if something seems unclear to him, or something to that extent. His general reverts are simply indolent, utterly devoid of any respect. This is well beyond what is acceptable in terms of professionalism or general standards of common decency. It defies any spirit of co-operation. Anyway, Administrator User:GiantSnowman will tell, that he left unanswered messages on my talk page. A while ago, I had already problems with him, and I don't deem it helpful conversing him at any length. Also, in consideration that a revert is a revert.

I have written well in excess of 300 new articles and contributed to many more substantially across several language platforms. In addition to that I have contributed with more than 1000 graphics. Allow me to say, that I don't require to be lectured about quality standards which favour minimalistic stubs to which at a random count 200 added every day. Of-course, favoured are also complicated presentation forms, with little balls as indicator for goals, which allow football fans to play around for hours without contributing anything to the substance of an article.

I suggest, the team looks into the matter and forms a conclusion, I personally am not into the arguing business but rather leave it there, if the standards applied in this case are the way to go. Maybe, I am simply not suitable as a contributor here, and uninformative stubs which essentially don't offer more than statistic websites are not worth my while. Cheers, OAlexander (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

CC: @GiantSnowman:

@OAlexander: I won't correct the obvious error myself but I want to make clear that I am not an admin and I have not performed the linked edit. Please correct the above text to the name of the editor who did perform said edit. Cheers. Green Giant (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

@Green Giant:: Please accept my most profuse apologies. I have great respect for your contributions and beyond that with your project. Very sorry about that! Cheers, OAlexander (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for changing it. Green Giant (talk) 13:53, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Giant Snowman is acting as an editor at the article, and hasn't taken any admin actions, so constantly labeling him as "administrator" doesn't seem necessary. His reverts of you were explained in edit summaries. I see that you have not even tried talking to him on his talk page or the article talk page. You're not a new editor, OAlexander, you've been on Misplaced Pages even longer than me and you have plenty of editing experience, you should know better than to run straight to ANI before even trying to resolve your content dispute in any way other than edit-warring. -- Atama頭 14:09, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I tried with the colleague in question the talk-page method in the past - to no whatsoever avail. I am not an expert in conflict resolution, as I avoid conflicts or usually encounter colleagues who are accessible. I request your suggestion, where I shall paste my above blurb instead. I then expect not to be exposed to the all to frequent friends-help-friends aspects of WP. Cheers, and thank you very much. OAlexander (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. This doesn't belong here. And OAlexander, you wrote "The defender played initially professional football" - in normal English that implies that he then carried on to play something else, non-professional football perhaps. I don't think that's what you meant. Dougweller (talk) 14:30, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The phrasing "The defender played initially professional football with Racing" can also imply that in the very beginning he played football elsewhere and then continued to play professional football afterwards wherever - and so he did. Anyway, such things can be easily changed to anybodys liking; changing does not constitute complete content removal. Whoever wants, may deal with such issues in whichever way. OAlexander (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

User has now reverted me without explanation and added a whole heap of unreferenced material to a BLP, can an uninvolved admin please take a deeper look at this editor's contribs? GiantSnowman 15:41, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

To the "Sexy Lexie" I have since added a reference, one of many, many possible ones. The links I have removed in the Arsène Auguste article where insubstantial - the one to the webarchive site is eg, completely covered by the NASL-jerseys site., etc. The total reverts leave not much room for any discussions on talk pages, even less so, when such procedure has been tried before in the matter of the article Seth Burkett a while ago. I get the feeling that User GiantSnowman wishes to play here here the role of some Überuser. I affirm, that any content that I have added can be traced by links I have provided. The total reverts are rather remindful of vandalism, to be more to the point. It probably was GiantSnowman should have chosen to communicate via talk pages rather than full reverts. His actions were devoid of any respect or collegiality - certainly not in any spirit of co-operation. To call the content he removed "completely inappropriate" is brazen. If this is acceptable procedure, count me out. If GiantSnowman - or anybody else - with the given links would not have been able to reproduce the content of a short article inside a few minutes, if there is distrust, they probably should not be pontificating. With your high quality standards and low procedural qualities, there is no point for me contributing. Does now the grand Boomerang-gang-bang come upon me? Cheers, OAlexander (talk) 16:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

And what about all the other information you added which is, and remains, unreferenced? You seem not to care about WP:BLP in the slightest. GiantSnowman 16:21, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, the article subject passed away 21 years ago, so BLP shouldn't apply (per WP:BDP it applies for up to 2 years after the subject's verified death). Regardless, WP:V applies everywhere. The both of you should be discussing this at the article talk page and using dispute resolution methods. OAlexander, you've reverted twice, and GiantSnowman you reverted 3 times. This edit war should stop. My suggestion, GiantSnowman, is to outline on the talk page what content specifically you object to including without a source. OAlexander, find a source (or sources) that can verify that information and be included inline. If after that you still can't agree then follow the usual steps; third opinion, RfC, etc. But please do it on the article talk page, not here. -- Atama頭 16:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

As I have pointed out, all information was traceable with the links that were provided. I have no win the Lex Schoenmaker article entered into the competition of vileness with GiantSnowman. If what the colleague puts up here is ok - then I am definitely wrong here. Maybe, I should no longer wasting my time here adding to articles, but also focus on content removal. That seems to be the prestigious thing to do here. I personally think, what GiantSnowman performed here was ill-willed by design and constitutes vandalism. I leave it there. People of reason seem to be thin on the ground here. I will notify accordingly in due course OAlexander (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact you are engaging in WP:POINTy editing by blanking the article, and the fact you state you are engaged in a "competition of vileness" shows you do not have the attitude to edit here. Your edits are becoming increadingly disruptive, and I would invite an uninvolved admin to block. GiantSnowman 16:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Editor has blanked again, can someone take a look ASAP? @Atama: @Dougweller:. GiantSnowman 16:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

PS: The article Lex Schoenmaker now looks like far too many Misplaced Pages articles: four trivial links for two facts, three horizontal lines, mighty infobox and table of contents. Else totally unsatisfactory. OAlexander (talk) 16:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with GiantSnowman. OAlexander The edits you made to Lex Schoenmaker look like a blatant violation of WP:POINT; in other words, if you are going to be challenged to provide sourcing for one article you need to strip a related article of everything that isn't directly sources. Per your own admission this is "totally unsatisfactory". Please self-revert, this is intentional disruption. -- Atama頭 17:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: OAlexander blocked 24 hours by TParis. -- Atama頭 18:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Owning and Bullying by Livelikemusic

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For the past two days, I have been working to make the Theresa Donovan page more accurate and thorough. In adding information about the previous actors to portray the role, my edits were reverted by livelikemusic with the explanation that they "violated" site policies. They did not "violate" anything. I re-did my edit and again, livelikemusic reverted it saying the current actress is the "most notable in the role" as though that means any previous actors should be ignored and can't be mentioned on this site. He then began saying there were "policies" against my edits. In actuality, there are no policies against my edits.

To me, lying about violations and policies to deter someone from making edits is a definite sign of bullying.

I then added a period to the end of a sentence and livelikemusic reverted that too with the explanation of no punctuation allowed in an infobox. I asked, "Where does it say that?" to which they have not yet replied. I added a brief explanation about another character being portrayed by more than one actress and that got reverted too with the explanation of it already say's that elsewhere. I added two commas to a sentence because it needed them and livelikemusic reverted that too because they didn't feel the sentence needed commas! I can't even correct minor punctuation errors without livelikemusic reverting them!

That, to me, is also definite bullying.

Along with all that, on the Theresa Donovan talk page, livelikemusic accused me of "attempting to own" the page by reverting his edits but, I have not reverted his edits, I have merely made edits of my own and gotten every single one of them reverted by him with his false "policies," "violations," and accusations of "owning."

That, to me, shows owning on his part.

All of this can be verified by reviewing the edits made to the Theresa Donovan page and it's associated talk page or by clicking this links to see the diffs: 1. here 2. here 3. here 4. here (deletion of the period) 5. here (again) 6. here 7. here (deleting my comma)

Thank you so much in advance. As per policy, I have left a message on livelikemusic's talk page regarding this complaint (although he immediately deleted it).Cebr1979 (talk) 02:57, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

All of this can be verified by reviewing the edits made to the Theresa Donovan page and it's associated talk page. Please just post diffs of conduct you believe supports your argument that livelikemusic is engaged in inappropriate behavior. At first glance this just looks like a content dispute. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 03:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind telling me how to do that as I don't know everything about how to properly link to something. I'm new here. Thanks in advance.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Diffs have been added.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Firstly, I have been accused of reverted each of their edits to Theresa Donovan, which I have not done. I reverted some edits, which were explained, such as the addition of child actresses and a comma I felt was mis-placed; I did not revert each and every single edit Cebr has done. As I attempted to explain to this user on the page's talk page, the character of Theresa Donovan was not a notable enough stand-alone character per the Soap Project and notability of a fictional character on a soap opera until current actress Jen Lilley took claim of the role last year; I also used prime examples of GA's on the Soap Project as more examples of why I believed they should not be placed within the infobox. And my revert of the punctuation point was because on the template page, and Soap Project page, they did not represent it with such punctuation. Cebr is merely seeing my edits as not in good faith, yet I was merely trying to work alongside some of their edits, for the sake of civility. However, I was continued to be accused of owning the page, while I was continued to be talked about personally as an editor, and not my edits themselves.

(edit conflict) I did not lie, nor attempt to deter this user from making their edits on this article. Their perception is gravely mis-taken, as I attempted to explain to them. I stopped responding on the talk page, as I found it not okay for us to be softly baiting and biting each other in such a manner. My edits removing a comma was reverted, and removal of a period was reverted after a string of edits made exclusively by Cebr; if I'm going to be accused of owning a page, shouldn't they also be with those edits? As for the brief explanation of another character being portrayed by another actress, I noted that a note was already included on the page, which notes that two other actresses portrayed said role (Kimberly Brady) during the most recognized's actress' absence from the role. Continuing to be accused of bullying is something I take seriously, as never in my entire lifetime, on or offline, have I ever bullied someone. Bullying is something I do not tolerate in my life in any kind of way, especially in today's day in age where it's at the forefront of a lot of serious issues in society with our younger generations. And may I add: a user can remove anything they do choose from their talk page, so why that continues to be brought up is beyond me. I've asked Cebr to not contact me directly via-a talk page several times, as it appears no matter what, there never seems to be any resolve that comes out of anything. livelikemusic 03:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You never made punctuation edits to the page, I did and then you reverted them... which made them incorrect grammatically. I had to change them back or have the page be wrong. Also, I had to contact you via your talk page as that is site policy when making a complaint against someone.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Would also like to add that as a long-time editor who has worked extensively to protect the authenticity of soap articles, and other articles, I am appalled and deeply hurt by the claims continuing to be made against me. livelikemusic 03:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, this looks like nothing more than a content dispute. ANI is not the place to resolve this. If you feel discussion at the talk page is deadlocked, you may want to involve the broader WikiProject on soaps, or some other dispute resolution process. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 03:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I've added diffs for you to see which clearly show bullying and excessive reverting which is a sign of owning: 1. here

2. here 3. here 4. here (deletion of the period) 5. here (again) 6. here 7. here (deleting my comma)Cebr1979 (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Which I tried doing by pinging other editors that were close to the Soap Project, and I was accused of owning the page by bringing in other people, and that the other user's edits were not expert or important; which I never did. I attempted to keep things civil, but kept feeling baited by Cebr based on feeling their incivility on the talk page. I asked for guidelines that support their liking, and they didn't. I provided several and was told that I was mis-interpreting to act as "broad and self-suiting". livelikemusic 03:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

And I didn't know trying to do what I believed to be grammatically correcting something and adding a preferred plainlist to be "bullying". Has the definition of that changed as well? Is there nothing I can do right in Cebr's eyes other than just quit Misplaced Pages? Because now I am feeling very personally attacked and bullied into leaving a hobby and passion I've had for several years in helping make better. livelikemusic 03:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

And once again, Cebr is using "mine" and "my", all words Misplaced Pages suggests going against, as it suggests a user owning a page. livelikemusic 03:37, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I will say this: never in the eight years of editing here have I felt such an injustice by Misplaced Pages. I made a report last week about Cebr and their personal attacks against me; the report was deemed unfit was they weren't "personal enough". Cebr was told to stop making accusations and refrain from all communication (which Cebr just removed). I thought working on the talk page of Theresa Donovan we could come to some sort of settlement. I also tried applying the preferred plainlist format that most infoboxes are converting to (an edit seen as bullying). At the Soap Project, the example template does not include a period after "Actress as Character" format, hence my removal (once again, accused of bullying there). I then removed the note concerning Patsy Pease and her portrayal of Kimberly Brady, explaining that a note was already included for visitors to read (Accused once more of bullying). Removed a stand alone comma after the word "and" as I did not feel it was grammatically appropriate to use there (accused of bullying again). I ask, how would any of these edits be seen as bullying? On the talk page, Cebr continued to accuse me of using policies as an interpretation as "broad" and "self-serving", accusing their edits as not being "expert" (which I followed and refuted). Cebr then accused me of not just accepting "an encyclopedia entry being more thorough", which was not what I was refuting. I have been accused of many things, which Cebr was advised against doing. I remained civil in my interactions, despite feeling baited and bitten, after being accused and attacked of many things. At this point, it feels like if I don't say "Fuck It" Cebr will continue to attempt to drive me out of Misplaced Pages, which is how I'm feeling. I'm not accusing them of doing such (as I'm sure I'll be accused of doing). I'm feeling that eight years of my dedication and appreciation for Misplaced Pages is being over-looked and under-appreciated. At this point, enough is enough. I played it civilly, and was still accused and attacked by another member of this forum. How many more times does it need to happen before action is properly taken? If an Administator has further questions for me, I'll be gladly happy to answer tomorrow when I log back on. livelikemusic 04:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The F word doesn't seem like keeping things civil but, oh well. Anyways, I didn't "just remove" anything. I cleaned my talk page up last week. Anyone can go to the Theresa Donovan page and see the edit history. Anything anyone does, you always revert for this reason or that. Even here where a sentence simply wasn't enough for you so it had to be reverted. The sentence said true information but, it wasn't enough for you so had to go. You are owning the page (as you do with many pages) and you are the one trying to make others "go away" so you can reign as supreme editor on your favourite pages. The only "injustice" is that someone hasn't stood up to your bullying before. You should probably drop it now before I come back with a ton of more diffs from a ton of more pages.Cebr1979 (talk) 04:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

And stop shoving your "8 years of editing" down everyone's throats! That doesn't make you any better than anyone else and shouldn't even be mentioned. Ever. That's exactly where an "owning" mentality stems from.Cebr1979 (talk) 04:23, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• With the exception of a few edits by User:Mendaliv, you two haven't allowed anyone else to participate here. Shut up and wait for neutral parties to intervene. This isn't another board for you two to rehash all of your dispute all over again.--v/r - TP 05:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Per Mendaliv, the diffs just show run-of-the-mill content dispute. DeCausa (talk) 05:43, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The diffs weren't there when Mendaliv wrote that. The diffs show constant reverting by livelikemusic.Cebr1979 (talk) 05:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes they were. You added the second set of 7 diffs after his post. That just shows the two of you edit-warring. DeCausa (talk) 05:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

No, they weren't. I added both sets of diffs at the same time. When I first posted my original message, I didn't know how to post diffs. Once I found out, I edited my first post to include them and added the second set (both after Mendaliv's comment). You can see that by checking the history of this page.Cebr1979 (talk) 06:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, but it doesn't make any difference. It's still per Mendaliv - just a content dispute. And you've been edit-warring. Btw, you shouldn't be changing your posts after others have responded to them. DeCausa (talk) 06:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

So? Mendaliv is not an admin. Anyone can give input, sure, but that's all it is. His say is not final.Cebr1979 (talk) 07:00, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Er, yes anyone can give input and I just gave mine, which is to agree with Mendaliv. Have a look at the other threads and see how this board works before you jump to conclusions as to how you think it works. DeCausa (talk) 08:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I am frustrated with the apparent inability of editors to deal with 'content disputes in the proper forum and the constant allegations of behavioural violations with bad faith, which is counterproductive towards finding a solution to these disputes. I have consistently called on both parties to discuss changes and keep allegations to a minimum, and am quickly losing patience over the constant posts to this board at every slight perceived violation. If you continue to cause disruption and continue to make bad faith allegations, I will pursue an interaction ban between the two parties and/or a topic ban on soap-related articles as the only recourse to stop the disruptive behaviour. The behaviour exhibited is beyond childish. —Dark 11:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

My issue is not the content being disputed, it's all of my edits being constantly reverted by livelikemusic. I am not the only editor he does that too and many other editors simply go away rather than alerting anyone. In any case, I can see this is going nowhere fast so I will continue on and hope livelikemusic does the same. I mean, wikipedia is a big place, there's got to be countless other pages for him to revert and countless other editors for him to quote his false policies too. Thank you for your time. Cebr1979 (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You can say your issue is with behavior, but you'd be wrong. Resolve the underlying content dispute like adults—both of you—and any "behavioral" problems will just evaporate. Hell, you might even find you have a lot in common. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Once again, I tried attempting to resolve the issue, and involve other soap editors to provide their own insight and feelings on the situation, and I was met with trying to "own" something, and was accused of things I was not doing. And as for the "F" word, Misplaced Pages does not censor. Once again, I'm being attacked and being made accusations against me. And TParis, I made that statement last night because I was logging off and wanted it said right then and there. I had no issues with letting others discuss. I never brought any behavior problems into this issue; I kept it completely on the topic of child actresses. So I am still dumbfounded that we're back here at ANI., when I'm accused of making things "my policy", which I am not. It's baffling and quite offensive, especially to be told to "stop shoving" things down everyone's throats. Once again, more assumptions and incivility on an editor's part. livelikemusic 16:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Respectfully, you need to keep trying then. ANI isn't the place to resolve this dispute. And sanctions don't lie against Cebr1979 for making this complaint. I see virtually no participation in the dispute from editors other than yourself and Cebr1979. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Mendaliv, I have been. And those ping'ed have not responded and may never. But now I feel like no matter how/what I edit, it's going to be seen as "bullying" and "advancing my own agenda" since it's clear soap articles are the common link. livelikemusic 18:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mendaliv: Once again, I'm trying to help the article, and I'm being accused of owning the page, when a valid quote was removed. They removed a quote, which they believed to be about The Book of Esther, however if you check the reference, it is specifically about her joining the cast of Days of Our Lives. Once again being accused of owning a page and "doing this again". Obviously Cebr and I cannot seem to come to understandings about things, and I believe this issue has gone far enough. I've tried working with Cebr, however, I'm continually just told I'm "wrong". May be taking this to content dispute now, but figured I'd also bring this here. But I've tried working alongside this editor, and like I mentioned before, I feel like I'm continuing to be accused of "bullying", while my edit was valid, as per the source and reference proves. And another edit I was told was wrong, since it was used on multiple other pages, etc. Yet, I cited the infobox template, and was still reverted. Yet, following suit of soap opera, specifics of a job are not specifically listed. I'm once again feeling like no matter how I intend or hope to help the editing process, I'm just simply "wrong" in my actions, and viewed upon as bullying. Do I have to quit to make another editor happy? I shouldn't have to, but once again, it's how I'm feeling. livelikemusic 20:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

This is so tiring. There were no accusations made today by me! I pointed out a lie, true. That can be seen. As for reverts, her edits are still there! I made some edits, she reverted them, so I clarified them. Could someone please tell me how to remove this section of the ANI from my watch list? I no longer want notifications when something is added to it. Cebr1979 (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The star or when you're editing unclick "Watch this page". And accusations were made, plus I am a he not she. livelikemusic 21:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Whew! Thank you for being useful. This whole thing was useless as livelikemusic has already taken it directly to an admin (see so here).Cebr1979 (talk) 21:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

@Cebr1979:: You would do well not to follow editors with whom you are in disputes to other people's user talk pages. It's not particularly friendly. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I was hardly concerned with making friends.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

@Cebr1979: Let me clarify. If you keep it up you stand a good chance of being blocked for Wikihounding. Ease up on Livelikemusic. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Let me clarify: there is a reason why I removed this from my watch list.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I only noticed when I went to livelikemusic's talk page to get it off my watch list too. Don't jump to conclusions.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I've kept quiet on this right now, however, I have not "moved on". Conclusions have been continually put against me (via-accusations) and I have remanded beyond civil with Cebr. The civility continues to not be returned; I attempted to resolve things by taking it to the talk page, and was then accused of "doing it again", etc. And will continue to state I feel that nothing I say and/or do will ever be OK for this user. It was not my intention to violate 3RR, so I apologise for doing so. livelikemusic 22:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, deary my! livelikemusic is wikihounding me! The only way he could know about the "moved on" comment is if he followed me to Mendaliv's talk page!Cebr1979 (talk) 22:44, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I was not Wikihounding at all. I was there to follow-up to a message I thought I had left for them concerning Theresa Donovan, only to find I hadn't left it. livelikemusic 22:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Just an additional note, if Cebr1979 and livelikemusic fail to discuss their article changes on the talk page (and gain consensus for such changes) and continue reverting each other, I will treat it as disruptive edit warring and will sanction accordingly. I also would like to provide a precautionary warning regarding the improper use of multiple accounts to make changes to such articles - that is not tolerated. Misplaced Pages is based on consensus, I don't care whether you think you're right or not, you will discuss controversial changes civilly and without accusation. I hope that I do not have to see a thread on ANI about this again. —Dark 22:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Was there an example of socking going on or why was that brought up? For the record, I only have one account and this is it!Cebr1979 (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

If you only have 1 account, then you have nothing to worry about. —Dark 22:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

i hope not, either. I had no intentions of re-opening something against Cebr, and did not see them opening one themselves. I've attempted to try and reach consensus with the user, and continue to be accused of bending guidelines to meet "my own agenda" (which I do not have). I continued to keep the discussion to the article, and I continued being accused of doing things "my way", etc. Accusations continue to be made, against me, despite my intentions to co-habitat with the user, as the common interest we appear to share are soap articles. livelikemusic 22:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I have made my comments on the article talk page, along with recommendations. This is a pure content dispute. I see some frayed tempers on both sides, most likely stemming from the reverting that was going on. I caution both, again, to not continue it, and to continue discussing. As far as the infobox issue is concerned, I recommended starting a broader discussion as to possibly rewording the soap character infobox. As to the use of the quotation dispute, I suggested that further research may produce valuable content based on the matters discussed in the quotation. As this is a pure content dispute, and both editors have been warned for 3RR, I move that this discussion be closed. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

That's a fair assessment, Medaliv. Thank you.Cebr1979 (talk) 22:57, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Neil Gale and the Chicago Postcard Museum

• Neil Gale (talk · contribs)
• Chicago Postcard Museum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The user holds himself out as the owner of the museum and has blanked the page twice claiming copyright infringement. I compared to the website and don't see where we've lifted any material from the website.

What I do see is that the user may be disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, per this comment on Talk:Chicago Postcard Museum.

I don't think there's any validity to the copyright claim, but just to be safe, can I get some additional eyes on this? —C.Fred (talk) 04:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor in question appears to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how copyright law works. BMK (talk) 05:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

A separate question, is the article subject notable? I've not looked into it in great detail, but perhaps it isn't which would solve the problem. Canterbury Tail talk 13:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I looked at it and was wondering the very same. The article paints the subject as a museum when really it's a website. It got tagged as A7 when it was a new article, but it doesn't look like anybody ever sent it to PROD or AfD. While I personally think we should think hard about deleting something when someone related to the subject comes around making spurious arguments as to why it should be deleted... I'm not so sure here. Especially when it's out of the blue. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 16:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Maybe {{Notability}} is a good tag to put on the article. Epicgenius (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done, and also ditched some of the fluff describing this website in terms more typical for a brick-and-mortar museum (though not to the point of being unfair towards other virtual museums). —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 16:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually I just kicked this to AfD. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Probably related to this, see Drgale, who evidently created an article on the Chicago Postcard Museum way back in 2007 (which got deleted per what sounds like A7; the log doesn't explicitly say A7). Probably the same person as Neil Gale. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, they seem like the same person, since the curator of the museum is "Dr. Neil Jan Gale". If it had been created seven years later, it would have been deleted quickly, under WP:CSD#A7. Epicgenius (talk) 02:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

And Gale just confirmed at the AfD that his blanking is at least in part out of frustration due to the article on his current pet project (a Facebook page) got AfD'd. Not that there was much doubt considering the timing of the events (see my discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Chicago Postcard Museum). Anyway I don't think further admin action is needed: this guy is probably going away once the AfD closes anyway, and it's not like his !vote is disrupting the AfD. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 06:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The guy's still at it. I've collapsed the most recent series of accusations (disclaimer: these were mostly aimed at me personally). I think regardless of the outcome, consideration should be given to the fact that this individual is clearly not here to contribute to writing an encyclopedia. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 15:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

FYI, I've opened a case at WP:SPI on this. Ivanvector (talk) 17:47, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I should note that "I've screen captured this entire Article for Deletion conversation for my future use" could be taken as being intended to cause a chilling effect. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the guy's trying to get me (or others) steamed. I regret that I fed into it with one response, but at this point I'm just collapsing non-!vote discussion that takes place. As to the SPI, I don't think there's much need for it... it's clear they're the same, and they haven't really been used for disruption. The guy just abandoned one account, as Bushranger indicates. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:44, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Czechia dispute

(Non-administrator comment) This was 2 seperate threads originally. I've unified them under a larger dispute so that editors see both sides Hasteur (talk) 20:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Askave

User:Askave has been making protracted controversial POV-pushing WP:SOAP statements regarding the name Czechia for a number of months against consensus and peppering this behaviour with personal attacks against other editors, particularly User:Yopie, e.g. and making threats . Askave has a real problem with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth and seems to be WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia, but rather to promote Czechia over the Czech Republic as the main means of referring to the country. Previous requests to adhere to WP:A have been unsuccessful. I haven't had the time to see whether his latest edits are in accordance with policy, but fear not, considering the above. C679 08:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Further to the above, the user has accused me of sockpuppetry and resorted to name-calling on my talk page. C679 09:03, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have to categorically reject all accusations, incl.personal attacks. I am constantly accused of sockpuppetry by User:Yopie, all of my edits and articles, regarding or simply only containing informal (geographic name) of the Czech Republic have been deleting without any discussion (also User:Mewulwe), with any counterargument (it is comprehensible, because some rational reason does not exist at all - only subjective "I don't like it: and it is really very little argument). So, it is not personal attack of those people? From those reasons, that kind of behaviour can be understood from my side only as vandalic and rude. My reactions to such a kind of acting was emmotional, but directly proportional to the ostentative hostility, suspections and accusations from POV, however e.g. in the article "Czechia - the name dispute" I compared reasons for and against using the word and the dispute cannot be (from the natural character of the sense of the word) other, than controversial. In addition, I was absurdly accused from violation of copyright, however I was the founder of the article. User:Yopie focuses attention on my personal attacks, but they are nothing more than only way how to openly defend myself against coward and hypocritic behaviour of him. I have not met at least one argument from his side, I meet only quiet deletion of all I create with some general and nothing saying announcing of POV, if there was mentioned the name "Czechia". He obviously does not read the text, only searches for the name. In that case, he erases all the text. He is "active" in deletion of informal name also in other languages Misplaced Pages, where is one-word name commonly used. As is mentioned below, his POV direction is obvious in his Czech Misplaced Pages personal page (https://cs.wikipedia.org/Wikipedista:Yopie) declaring his biased beliefs by his own charakteristic of himself, writing: Tento uživatel nežije v Česku ale v České republice. ("This user does not live in Czechia, but in the Czech Republic"). After all quiet counteractions, he usually complains about my "not polite" behaviour. I would never know about some Yopie, if that guy has not proved his self-inflicted attitude to my edits.

I refuse to be persecuted here as a renegade or invader ! I am a researcher and in science is totally impossible and absurd to accept a rejection of personally uncomfortable opinion without serious discussion or more, to make apparent the reason of adversary is obviously subjective, without sufficient education in the issue. Many non-Czech admins do not realize it, but this is the fight between Czechs about aged burning issue and the dispute (however the article was deleted) has been existed for more than 20 years of existence of modern Czech state.

I am foprced to announce I proceed in accordance with official recommendations of Czech foreign ministry and Ministry of Education and Sports from 1993 and 1997 to use the name Czechia in all cases, except official documents, which are in force; they have not been ever cancelled. Esentially, I respect official recommendation and acting of Yopie and comp.is in conflict with them. In addition, the statement of English speaking countries representatives (e.g.UK ambasador in the Czech Republic) was always unambiguous, proclaiming willingness of English speaking countries to accept the name Czechia as a direct, an English language equivalent to Czech one-word name of the country "Česko", if the initiative will come from Czechs. It was done by above mentioned official documents of Czech govermenment. There are also another - essential, logical and practical - reasons for using informal name in Misplaced Pages instead of conventional political name:

(1) the translation of "Česká republika" into English is "the Czech Republic", the claim that translation of "Česko" is "the Czech Republic" too is simply false and absurd.
(2) if an informal name of the country in Czech (Česko) has its equivelents in all other languages (which was mentioned in the survey of my articles), there is not any rational reason for some stubborn resistance and rejection of using it in only language - in English.
(3) one of the main reason for using an informal name is basic need to assign the country by politically neutral name, which can serve for denomination of the country without any limitations and in time and space consequence, as is usual in every country with longer history with changes of political formations in the area. The country with more than 1100 years long history cannot be assigned by transient political name with limited action radius, containing only last 20 years of the existence of the Czech state. One of the main reasons is to prevent nonsenses, malignantly rampant here, where also Czech Kingdom is assigned as Czech Republic etc., etc., but the absolutely main reason is to unify and make clear and transparent view of our country for common reader of encyclopedy (as is usual worldwide), who cannot logically be oriented in the issue and his knowledge ends in ruins in that mess (categories as "...... of the Czech lands" and "..... of the Czech Republic") - Kingdom of Bohemia, Czech lands or Czech Republic, this is simply Czechia.A lot of examples, one close to us: Upper Hungary, western part of Czechoslovak republic or Slovak republic - simply Slovakia or Swedish Estonia, Livonian War Duchy of Estonia, Polish Estonia, Swedish Livonia, Estonian Republic - simply Estonia,etc., etc...... I promote common sense, nothing more.
(4) The rejection of informal name arises from strictly personal, subjective and predominatly emmotionally conditioned "reasons".

That sneak character of behaviour of some users seems to me really infantile. It is sad, I am forced to participate this childish rule here. Askave (talk) 10:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Yopie

User:Yopie has been deleting all references to the informal name of the Czech Republic - Czechia for years. He has not used any arguments and together with User:Mewulwe deletes without reasons or with wildcard reasons destroys all articles and mentions about that name, however they are complex and supported by many references. It already has happened to several contributors many times. He also initiates blocking and reporting of persons, contributing to the issue. The articles were always deleted, one of them also after suspect voting process, though voting ended with the victory of his opponents. Those articles (remain on personla pages of contributors and also there was was even recorded his activity towards their elimination. The last example is the page Civic initiative Czechia. I ask Misplaced Pages for stopping that behaviour. He is "active" in deletion of informal name also in other languages Misplaced Pages, where is one-word name commonly used. This can be considered almost psychotic obsession. To show POV interests of User:Yopie see his Czech Misplaced Pages page https://cs.wikipedia.org/Wikipedista:Yopie where he obviously shows his biased beliefs by his own charakteristic of himself, writing: Tento uživatel nežije v Česku ale v České republice. ( "This user does not live in Czechia, but in the Czech Republic"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Askave (talk • contribs) 08:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I can only confirm this, it takes few minutes and word Czechia is deleted. The dispute about the logical geographic name Czechia is ongoing since 1993 and has been discussed in the public hearing of Senate, Yopie's opinion is that this can be deleted because it is of no importance! So I can not imagine a public hearing of Senate for an issue of no importance! Yopie claims to be a monarchist, his thinking is totaly communist, he supresses any opinion which is not in line with his own belief.He is neglecting established facts, like Cesko, short name of The Czech Republic, which is the offical registered short name in the UNO UNGEGN list! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helveticus96 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Both Askave and Heleticus96, please desist from making personal attacks - talking about "almost psychotic obsession" (Askave) or stating that a user's thinking is "totally communist" (Helvitcus96) is definitely in personal attack territory and doesn't aid resolution of the dispute (and in fact makes it less likely that your views will be taken seriously). Please provide diffs of any alleged wrongdoing, noting that ANI is not for resolution of content disputes.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• I presume, that behaviour of Askave/ Helveticus is self- explaning. Namecalling and personal attacks of others, even here. --Yopie (talk) 12:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban

After having a few unpleasant exchanges with user:Askave about Czechia, I think that the only solution is a topic ban that covers the naming of the Czech Republic and predecessors, including naming people of being from Czechia. The Banner talk 11:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

yes, Yopie, you do not have one single argument, you just do not like it! Czechia will make it, even if you keep deleting as it is a logical and correct short name of our country! Czechia will make it in the same way, as the so hated Česko has made it. We have a long breath and even if it takes another twenty years! If Tschechien works in German, Czechia will work in English! Helveticus96 (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

A ban for sockpuppetry might have an even longer breath... The Banner talk 20:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations ! This is really response to my long and detailed explanation ?! This is really democratic conclusion ! Instead of thinking about the problem, the best way is to prohibit it ! User:The Banner - Nomen omen. User:Askave No more comments Askave (talk) 17:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Your "long and detailed explanation" was hardly more than a statement that you are right and the world is wrong. And could you please stop the personal attacks? The Banner talk 18:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

It has come to my attention that there is off-Wiki canvassing going on regarding the whole matter . C679 20:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Bonkers The Clown

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bonkers The Clown (talk · contribs) has had quite a turbulent history on Misplaced Pages, culminating in being blocked twice last year. After carrying on socking as Nelson Mandela was not Batman (and others), he eventually stopped just before new year. He requested an unblock per the standard offer last week, which was accepted by The Bushranger. However, he immediately fell into controversial areas and was swiftly reblocked by Floquenbeam. I don't see any evidence he is entertaining serious unblock requests on his talk page now, and would like to ask the floor what we do next. This could be anything from a sixth (or seventh?) chance, turning talk page access off, or a full blown community ban to drill home the message that our patience is generally worn out. What would people suggest? Ritchie333 11:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse ban - I suggest we remove talk page access and initiate a formal community ban. GiantSnowman 12:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need a site ban here. The editor is quite hopelessly incompetent and too big for his britches; but he can simply just remain indeffed. I do not see the need for a site ban, and would oppose one unless some major socking/bad faith evidence were put forth. Doc talk 12:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Doc. A ban seems way premature. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not particularly suggesting any sort of ban (indeed, if you read what I've written on Bonkers' talk page and elsewhere, you should come away with the impression I've been quite defensive and supportive of him), rather thinking that we need more admin eyes on this right now. He's got a pattern of repeatedly being disruptive and subsequently showing remorse again and again. He only apologised for the sockpuppetry after I bought it up, which does suggest he was hoping the unblocking admin wouldn't pick up on it. Ritchie333 13:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, then we should just be ready to remove talk page access in case he spams unblocks. The Depressed Loser (I am not here) 13:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we should just unwatch his talk page, in case we're tempted to read spam unblocks. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's much need to do anything at this point. The user was just indef'ed, he's not going to be unblocked anytime soon but a site ban seems of no real use here. Talk page access can be removed by any administrators if the talk page access is abused. Snowolf 13:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I suggest a formal community ban for a period of no less than 1 year (with an appeal option after six months). He was unblocked on the basis he was topic banned from the DYK project, but has already submitted and successfully obtained a DYK credit, he was topic banned from creating articles in mainspace but thought it acceptable to work with the AfC project, which requires him to assess and then move new articles created by other editors into the mainspace. That breaches the spirit if not the precise letter of the topic ban, he cannot be trusted to add new material to the mainspace, it should be obvious that applies not just to his own work but that of others. The damage he has done at the AfC project is impossible to estimate but it could well have discouraged new editors. The behaviour he now shows on his talk page is again unacceptable (misogynistic in nature - see ) and in combination with the breaches of the DYK topic ban and disaster at AfC, I think he needs to spend a great deal of time away from the community, given time to mature and reflect on his behaviour now, prior to his previous ban and the socking that occurred after it. The enforcement of a community ban will also require Bonkers to think about how the community will have perceived his behaviour, and has the benefit of preventing any administrator thinking of unblocking to do so without input from the community, be it in six months or a year. Nick (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• I totally agree with Nick, he got too many second chances already and has a history of socking. Endorse ban Secret 14:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Not entirely sure it will help much, as I don't think any admin should go and unblock this person without community consensus anyway, given the result of the latest unblock attempt, but I see no reason not to endorse this ban proposal if others feel it can have some positive effect. It surely cannot be of harm. Snowolf 15:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. Given the contempt Bonkers showed for WP:BLP policy in the incident that led to the previous ban, , his continuing reluctance to admit to doing anything wrong, and his immediate return to disruptive behaviour as soon as he was unblocked, it seems self-evident that he cannot be trusted, and is an ongoing liability to the project. We will manage fine without him. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - Bonkers' immediate return to his previous behavior and attempts to hide his past behind supposed ignorance and sweet words clearly shows that the interests of Misplaced Pages are not what is in his mind when he is editing. Ansh666 15:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Guess people just can't see a troll when he's done any bit of good. Anyways, I'd support an AfC ban for Bonkers if he comes back. Ansh666 07:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    • (Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't that be up to AfC to decide as a community? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
      • No, per WP:OWN. The community as a whole decides. If regulars at AFC wanted an unblocked editor to NOT be at AFC, they could go to WP:AN and likely get a topic ban rather easily. The ONLY public area of Misplaced Pages (that I'm aware of) where "membership" is decided by a closed panel is in clerking, just as SPI or at Arb, as there are privacy and other issues at stake. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
        • I would tend to agree with Dennis Brown here: the community as a general principle abhors processes and procedures that are decided by some "sekrit klub"/cabal/walled garden, and AfC does not qualify as an exception. While I don't personally have a problem with a ban discussion taking place in a less-prominent (read: less edit conflict-prone) zone, but there would need to be a very prominent announcement on AN/ANI. And even then, I suspect some editors would object, arguing that holding the discussion in a different place removes the benefit of blowing up people's watchlists with every comment, and thus (hopefully) attract more attention, and thus involvement. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 16:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - after his latest endeavors I think it's time we close the door on second chances. Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 15:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• For what it's worth, I don't see anything misogynistic in that diff, and don't think 'misogynistic' is a word we should toss around lightly without very strong proof. That said, this is a user who came back from a long block with promises of reform and got himself reblocked almost immediately, so I endorse ban to prevent further waste of the community's time. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• Speaking as the target of the diff, I didn't interpret it as misogyny either—simply his habitual sarcastic obfuscation when he has been caught out being economical with the truth. And where did this idea come from that he is a simply a very young editor who needs to mature? To those here who assume he's a naive teenager, I have a bridge to sell you. Voceditenore (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• support indef block, with WP:OFFER available in time. I had only a vague knowledge of Bonkers until this week. I saw one positive article and DYK (Eat Frozen Pork), although I then discovered these were strictly against their topic ban. Then I saw the past history, then I saw the issues leading to the latest block. Let's just say that I wouldn't be so positive to him if I'd known this beforehand. Give it time, maybe he'll grow up. Maybe he won't, hence the block. I don't care in the slightest, it's all up to him. Certainly a block today is entirely justified as preventative. Too much dramah otherwise. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban Eight years ago, Misplaced Pages welcomed another Singaporean editor around the same age as Bonkers. Although he could contribute quality content, he could not handle stressful situations and eventually developed a very effective method of vandalism. He was almost community-banned, but an admin decided to block him for a week instead and since then, he has written thirteen Singapore-related GAs. In case you have not already realised, that editor was myself and Bonkers reminds me of what I was like back then. Of course, I do not condone his actions, but are they so severe that they warrant a community ban? I doubt so. What Misplaced Pages needs is more contributors of quality articles about poorly represented topics. With over a hundred (mostly Singapore-related) DYKs to his name and potential GAs (such as Ah Boys to Men), Bonkers is certainly among them. If he simply focuses on article writing and is given sufficient guidance (from me, for example), he could be one of our most valuable editors. Perhaps the community could allow Bonkers to develop articles offwiki and email them to another editor (such as me), who would check the articles and post them to mainspace (if they are of high quality). --Hildanknight (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree your goals and also oppose such a ban. However take a look at what has happened this week. We don't want to re-run that, so how can we avoid it? Bonkers just doesn't seem to see that his behaviour is a problem. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about the AfC disruption? Then we can ban him from AfC. We don't need to siteban at this point. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't that be up to AfC to decide as a community? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The AfC disruption, the breach of the DYK topic ban, the breach of article creation and claiming that he had conveniently forgotten being topic banned. That's just the stuff I saw. Clearly topic bans are simply ignored. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

In the unblock, I didn't see any mention of a DYK ban - it looked unconditional to me. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Oppose siteban, consider AfC ban if the conduct that led to the most recent block is really that troublesome. There are some indecorous comments at the Bonkers' user talk that did lead to revocation of talk page access, but I think some leniency is in order given the circumstances. As another editor has pointed out, Bonkers has a good history of content creation on Singapore topics. Given Misplaced Pages is starting to operate a bit leaner in terms of good content creators, we should trim the rotten parts rather than pitch the entire roast in the garbage. Perhaps it's a sign of the economy getting better that people have less spare time to spend editing Misplaced Pages. This of course should not serve to abrogate the prior standard offer that resulted in the last unblock. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 16:03, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't that be up to AfC to decide as a community? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Support indefinite ban with option to appeal in either one or two years and every six months thereafter. Bonkers has caused a months-long trail of disruption and proven himself incompetent, immature, and uncivil. --Jakob (talk) 16:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose indefinite ban – Seriously? Why should we go around banning editors like Bonkers, when such editors consistently expand the quality of articles? However, Bonkers may be a little naive and misguided to be editing Misplaced Pages at this time, so I suggest leaving the indefinite block, with an WP:OFFER applicable in one year this time. I'll also choose Support one-year ban. (On further thought, I won't support any ban. Bonkers might be a clown, as implied by his username, but he isn't a long-term disruptive user; he is only misguided. Modified 17:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)) Epicgenius (talk) 16:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Indefinite Block extended to talk page with no appeal for at least a year. I intensely dislike outright bans except as a truly last resort. That said, this is clearly a hardcore recidivist. I like Snowolf's point that little will be gained by an outright ban that cannot be accomplished by an indefinite block. I would add a strongly worded warning that if/when the block is ever lifted (or if there is any further attempt at evasion) that any further trouble from him and the next stop is the full blown ban/excommunication/anathema. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban if we must do this exercise. This has yet to reach the level one would normally associate with banning. I have no issue with the indef block, but he hasn't been shown to be so problematic that we need the formal act of banishing him out to the wilderness yet. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban Eric Cartman amuses but doesn't convince. "Formal communitah ban!" "Too big for his britches!" "Repeatedlah disruptive!" "Needs time away from teh communitah!" "Too manah second chances!" "Liabilitah to teh project!" Puh-lease. Just block Bonkers (excellent user name btw, Bonkers) when he's naughty, unblock when he promises to be good, proceed with blocks and unblocks as required. Playing with their little blockhammers is what sysops become sysops for. Maybe give the Bonkers job to the diligent Beebelbrox, whose tally currently stands well north of 2500. Bonkers could help him to the magic 3000. All this Down With The Clown! dramah is totallah unnecessarah! Writegeist (talk) 17:37, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban, and any block that might be seen as punitive. When Bonkers work is good, it is very, very good. When it is "bad" it is always reversible even when it may raise the hackles of his detractors. Send him to counseling. Encourage his adoption. Perhaps limit him to 1RR. Ask him to self-limit actions that may cause angst to his many watchers. We have many far better solutions that build the encyclopedia and this editor's skills that do not require a ban. Schmidt, 18:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• What evidence do you have that this person is a "young Singaporean?" I strongly suspect he's lying to you. Adopting a persona designed to appeal to the weak-minded and naive is a popular tactic of online trolls. Have fun playing encyclopedia folks.Dan Murphy (talk) 18:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• Why would young Singaporeans especially appeal to the weak-minded and naive? Anyway, I reviewed his fish soup bee hoon and found it quite plausible as the work of a native Singaporean. What evidence do you have to the contrary? Andrew (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think Dan Murphy is probably right. The "young Singaporean" schtick does not ring true. I looked at the article you linked to and see nothing "plausible" about his claim. The entire account reeks of role playing and trolling. Why this editor isn't banned speaks volumes about the poor judgement of the community. The editor is taking advantage of the known weakness of the members of the community, and he's doing it in such a deliberate way that it has the feel of professionalism about it. Very odd. Viriditas (talk) 02:05, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. The actual unblock appeared to be unconditional, and there was no obvious DYK prohibition at the time it was made. The AfC mess was problematic, but stopped when the warning was given. I'd support some way back, possibly with clear and specific restrictions. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose long-term ban of people who are here with a genuine desire to contribute to the encyclopedia (e.g. vandals, trolls, and advertisers be gone!). Endorse 5-year (see below for why not "indef") block with a custom-tailored version of WP:STANDARD OFFER or similar available any time after 7 months (his last block was 6 1/2 months, obviously not long enough). Strongly endorse post-block heavy editing restrictions including continued an additional 6-month ban on any WikiProjects in which he was disruptive since his first unblock on 10:37, 26 September 2013 and, if he has been disruptive in any particular article or that article's talk page since 10:37, 26 September 2013, an additional 6-month ban on that article and talk page and any "successor" article or talk page (e.g. if an article split, both articles would be covered, if it was merged or redirected, the target would be covered, if it was deleted and re-created under a different but obviously-the-same-topic title, the new article would be covered). I qualify all of the above by saying the long-term block and bans mentioned above should all expire 5 years after the most recent block. Any violation or evasion (e.g. WP:SOCK) of these blocks or bans would result in, at a minimum, a reset of all clocks. After 5 years, we can assume that if he comes back, he will have changed at least a little (I can't think of anyone who is the same person now as they were 5 years ago). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 20:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban The article which is currently showing on the main page seems fine and that is our main business here. This editor seems to have an abundance of youthful high spirits but short blocks and warnings will suffice to keep these in check. A ban seems too draconian. Misplaced Pages is not the government of Singapore and so should not demand placid conformity from every foreign visitor. Andrew (talk) 21:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

In an international project, a contributor from Singapore is no more 'foreign' than anyone else, and as for 'youthful high spirits', I see no reason to accept that Bonkers is the youth he claims to be - though it makes no difference, since policy applies regardless of age. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump, I think you misunderstood Andrew; in my eyes, he's talking about the Singaporean government's position toward non-Singaporeans in Singapore and saying that we should be different. Nyttend (talk) 04:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Meh, support, for lack of a better label, I guess, ish. Community bans are generally brought down on people who have a severe, long-term history of disruption. Bonkers' disruption has been annoying, yes, even "very annoying". But it doesn't quite rise, at least as of now, to the level of malice and determined hellraising that would typically cause me to support a flat-out, "don't come back until we say you can" ban. All that said, however, it's clear that Bonkers, at least at this point, can't or won't edit in a non-disruptive manner. So while a "ban" seems like overkill, I also see no reason why he should be editing this project unless and until he can make a persuasive, coherent statement about how his behavior will change, and I would prefer that his eventual return be decided by community discussion and not by whatever admin, who may or may not know the history, happens along to an unblock request. And, well, that ends up sounding a whole lot like a ban in function, despite my reluctance to call it that. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block with first appeal not allowed until one year has passed, and any unblock must specify the areas that remains off-limits from the original block: discussing or editing any race-related content (and no racial epithets allowed), creating mainspace articles directly (or moving articles there), DYK, and recommend that AfC be added to this list. Could appeal these limitations six months after editing resumes if all goes well. If the above restrictions aren't possible with a block, then support a ban with a one-year first appeal. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't that be up to DYK andAfC to decide as communities respectively? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as redundant. He was just indefinitely reblocked. Now he could easily be unblocked but I can't see that happening in the present climate. As for those of you who criticize him for making excessive drama, look no further than the supporters of this ban, repeatedly beating the proverbial horse. KonveyorBelt 00:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• The supporters of this ban are trying to prevent any future drama, so your statement makes no sense. Viriditas (talk) 02:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Are they really? Because it seems after countless AN and ANI threads they are creating more drama than they are "preventing". KonveyorBelt 04:16, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban or indef, but support topic ban for race-related topics. Bonkers is a prolific contributor to Misplaced Pages. He created hundreds of new articles, including almost 200 that appeared on DYK, in merely two years. He has an irreverent attitude which rubs the wrong way with some people, but nothing truly disruptive. This whole drama is basically continued punishment for his "original sin" of creating and bringing this article to the main page, after which he has been indef'ed repeatedly for relatively minor offences. -Zanhe (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban or indef. Basically agreeing to what Zanhe said. You pick on somebody enough, and it takes a very strong, confident and disciplined individual not to crack under the strain. Let's be clear Bonkers didn't write "that article", which merely timestamps the racist attitudes then within the USA. Are things much improved these days? -- Ohc  04:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a consensus at this point to community site ban Bonkers, and my prediction is that a consensus isn't going to be achieved in this thread even if we leave it open for an unusually long time. We shouldn't be speculating or commenting on the motivations of his supporters or detractors here, as it's just not relevant. We can't keep this open forever. The editor is indeffed and isn't going to be unblocked easily. This is supposed to be about a community ban, and overturning the indef isn't really on the table. Doc talk 05:46, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support. How much time do we collectively have to waste on a drama generator before we decide enough is enough? How much race trolling has to end up on the front page before we decide we don't want to take that chance anymore? Gamaliel (talk) 06:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

You've apparently got some diffs of "race trolling" on the "front page" from this particular editor? Please put them here for analysis. Doc talk 06:47, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you unaware of the article linked above or are you just challenging my assessment of it? That's just the beginning of the drama he's caused at DYK. Gamaliel (talk)

We follow consensus, as a policy, when determining a site ban. There is no consensus to site ban this editor. It's not going to form. Let's just stop wasting time on this. Doc talk 07:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Bonkers used to have a swastika in his signature. It is an important symbol in Indian religions. When he was informed that Westerners find it offensive, he removed it from his signature. Then he wrote an article about a racial slur and used that racial slur on its talk page. In Singapore, such words are not as offensive and are often used jokingly. To clarify, Singaporeans do care about racial harmony and have little tolerance for racism, However, what we deem racist (such as criticism of cultural traditions) is very different from what Westerners deem racist. For example, I do not understand why Westerners would defend the Muhammad cartoons as free speech. --Hildanknight (talk) 08:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty convenient excuse to have, isn't it? I'm not buying any of it. Viriditas (talk) 08:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

You aren't from Singapore, and Hildanknight is. Misplaced Pages's systemic bias has spiralled way out of control on this one. Seriously. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Whatever decision is reached here, Bonkers is not welcome at AFC. The damage he did there is the type that chases potential new editors away. So he's written a few acceptable article about Singapore related topics - but don't forget that he isn't the only Singaporean with access to the interwebz. "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. So let it be with Bonkers..." (Apologies to W.S.) Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • (Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't that be up to AfC to decide as a community? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Wow, you would really stoop so low? I am very disappointed in you, Roger, seriously. The clown has a huge number of problems with how he expresses himself, and how he behaves on Misplaced Pages, but those of us still interested in supporting an inclusive Misplaced Pages have noted that the other Singaporeans do not see his banter as hopelessly disruptive, even if there are problems. It is very sad that the English Misplaced Pages community is so low in the gutter now. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Reply It is indeed my sincere opinion that the damage Bonkers has done to WP (not only during the last few days) far outweighs any good he might have done. I am entitled to express this opinion without being attacked for it. (BTW I'm really surprised that you describe his disruptive behavior as mere "banter", it seems to me you are genuinely unaware of the full extent of what Bonkers has done here.) Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:02, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• I am very well aware of the clown's disruptive behaviour over the last year, quite frankly I consider your behaviour to be far more disruptive in targeting people of a particular nationality - "he isn't the only Singaporean with access to the interwebz", what on earth? The only thing I don't understand is why you are not ashamed of yourself and your behaviour. Perhaps that will come with time? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:12, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Some people have motivated unblocking him because he has written acceptable articles about Singaporean topics - I was simply pointing out that he is not the only person capable of writing about the place - your attempt to twist that into me attacking an entire nationality is you descending into personal attacks against me - you should be ashamed of yourself. That Bonkers is from Singapore isn't even relevant at all - there is no requirement that editor need to be citizens of the country they write about on WP. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, except if they're "not welcome", right? Ever seen a teenager banned from making any edits or writing any article about any town or village in the local place where they live? I have. Do you think that is a good idea? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - we do not site ban people for having "had a turbulent history", nor for being from Singapore and writing like someone from there, nor even for being a damn nuisance in a minor way. Please grow up and spend your "proposal" time on better things. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse ban based on the evidence collected by Anthonyhcole offline, including the following 1) Listed "Barack Magic Nigga Obama" as one of his "Top ten favourite people" on his user page 2) Wore a swastika in his signature while greeting newbies at the tea house. When confronted, he said, "The truth is, the swastika is an innocuous symbol. It is a symbol of peace and harmony. It is one of the main symbols used in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism. It is just that this dictator called Hitler perverted this symbol of peace and harmony. I advocate peace, not fascism. But in any case, I have removed it, lest ignorant ones blatantly criticize me for being a fan of the Nazis." 3) Wrote Niggers in the White House and nominated it for a "Did you know?" slot on Misplaced Pages's main page with the tag line, "Did you know that "Niggers in the White House" (1902) was written after the President invited a nigger to the White House?" 4) Wrote Bigger Hair and proposed the DYK, "that Nigger Hair is sold at auctions?" which was changed to "that the smoking tobacco brand Bigger Hair was originally named Nigger Hair?" 5) Wrote No Niggers, No Jews, No Dogs. 6) Unblocked 2 days later after apologising and agreeing to avoid race topics and racist language. 7) Next month created We should kill everyone in China with stuff scraped from the Jimmy Kimmel Live article. Viriditas (talk) 10:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Has it occurred to you that the location that all those things were posted, was the exact same location where everyone was encouraged to "search Demiurge1000 pedophile" on Google, with the obvious intention that it should become the searched-for string? Are you really incapable of imagining that your "Barack Magic Nigga Obama" arrangement wasn't the same deal? It becomes hard to assume good faith sometimes. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Fallacies are a dime a dozen. The site of origin is irrelevant. Are these seven points false? It really does appear that Misplaced Pages is being deliberately trolled by Bonkers. Viriditas (talk) 09:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Or rather, it seems so to you. How it looks to me is something I won't say right now for fear of WP:NPA... but I do think Misplaced Pages and ANI in particular is now fast headed into the "Western World and its way of doing things OK, outsiders not welcome" territory. That is a really bad place to be. Maybe you don't see it the same way. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:14, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of who came up with the evidence or where it was posted, it exists. Again, are the seven points false? And, is there any evidence that the user is from Singapore? Someone said an SPI was done, did it trace to that country? I don't get why this person is continually having their bad behavior excused because of where they claim to come from. It's ridiculous. Viriditas (talk) 09:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll provide public proof of his place of residence just as soon as you provide public proof of yours. Actually, no, get lost, I will do no such thing. You don't get to demand people are checkusered just because you don't like them or their edits or where they claim to be from. You are a disgrace. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The disgrace here, is that you and others are using a purported place of origin as an excuse for the bad behavior of the user. That's the disgrace. Many of us simply don't believe what the user has said, and there's good reason for that. Viriditas (talk) 10:25, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Right, so after you just finished edit-warring for the umpteenth time to remove my responses to your points above, which apparently I'm not allowed to make (so much for "free speech"), please could you tell us what the "good reasons" are? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

And by the way, please provide a justification for the "top google search result" bullshit while you're at it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:15, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

In September 2013, Bonkers' user page was the 2nd result for "Barack Magic Nigga Obama" because he had it listed on his talk page as one of his "Top ten favourite people" He has since removed the "Magic Nigga" part. Viriditas (talk) 09:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Frankly, for all those diffs and various gripes with Bonkers, everything seems to have taken place prior to the last unblock. I don't think it's quite right to go hammering on stuff that happened in the past—though pretty clearly stuff meriting some sanction—without explaining why that last chance has to be revoked. I think it's kind of presumed at this point that Bonkers has a history that includes disruption, but the fact that he was unblocked in the past is a clear indication that he's been seen as producing enough useful content to retain in the past, and the community has not apparently objected (or at least not loudly enough). In short, what you post is all well and good... but what does that have to do with the conduct since the last unblock? Bonkers got another chance: are you suggesting we siteban him and ignore that chance? Or do you have something to say about the current episode? If you want to get into "What Bonkers Did Wrong", you might be better off doing a WP:RfC/U than rehashing stuff on ANI that has little to nothing to do with the present incident. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 10:23, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I've endorsed the ban based on the concerns raised by the OP, including the past history, the blocks, the sockpuppetry, and the recent unblock and disruption of AfC. There's no need for an RfC/U here at all, just a community ban. I find it highly unlikely that a young kid from Singapore would know all the esoteric catchphrases such as "Magical Negro", an old American term that only received recent currency on the fringes of the conservative American right back in 2008-2009. This is clearly a returning user who is not a young kid and is very familiar with the complex intricacies of racism in America and knows just how to push the right buttons. He has apparently fooled quite a number of Wikipedians. Viriditas (talk) 10:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Anybody who's visited /b/, /pol/ or more than a couple times should know that and far worse; and even if that's not the case, I think it's downright offensive to declare someone a liar because they might be well read in an esoteric topic. I see no reason to doubt this person's claims to be who he is, and respectfully advise you to redact your accusations unless you have some real evidence. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 10:47, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

If BTC is blocked, any passing admin can unblock at any time, as happened recently. If BTC is banned, a community discussion would be required for an unblock. Therefore it is reasonable to discuss whether any past behavior merits the extra protection provided by a ban. Who cares whether Viriditas is correct (and BTC is a troll), or whether Viriditas is wrong (and BTC is merely indistinguishable from a troll)? Johnuniq (talk) 10:58, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Given the very recent behaviour of one of the editors you mention, those do not seem to be all of the alternatives. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Then do a RfC/U and organize your thoughts, allow other to respond, and keep ridiculous things at bay (like the revert war earlier this morning over something so trifling as how responses to an argument should be formatted). This is the wrong place to hash out this kind of discussion. It's already abundantly clear that a community ban will not achieve consensus based on the discussion that's happened here. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 12:08, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)(Non-administrator comment) I'd first like to say in regards to whether or not Bonker's should be banned from contributing at AfC, shouldn't that be up to AfC to decide as a community? See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#Discussions at ANI and on Bonkers' talk page. I'll go on to say, that determination of whether or not he is welcome to contribute to DYK should be up to that project and any participation in any project should be up to the project and whatever rules they decide to set in place for him (for example, he very well may decide to try his hand at NPP or CVU next for all we know). As to what my thoughts on his unblock and what kinds of hoops he'll have to jump through to accomplish that; I firstly don't think it is fair to indefinitely block anyone for infinity, and this discussion reads as though some here think that is the only course of action here. Others are say five+ years, and for someone that is 15-20, that is 25-33% of the life they have already lived. I don't think that is entirely fair and I think it is discouraging to other new editors trying to do right. I agree, life isn't always fair, but this is only Misplaced Pages for heaven's sake.

What I would personally like to see offered is in three months, an administrator offer to unblock Bonkers, preferably an administrator in Bonker's timezone that has some free availability during the day. Someone that can watch Bonker's contributions and check, at their discretion, that Bonker's isn't making mistakes that he shouldn't be making. The reason I say administrator, is they are the only ones that would be able to set a short term block "until the issue can be discussed" if needed for Bonkers preventing too much damage. Once Bonker's has done this for 3-6 months and proven some ability to be a constructive editor that is here to build an encyclopedia, then things like his interest to contribute to wikiprojects such as AfC, DYK, NPP, CVU, or whatever can be addressed. I don't think this is unfair at all, and I think it is the best solution to have the highest net gain for the encyclopedia. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

He was already blocked for six months, extended WP:ROPE, and promptly hung himself. He has been offered the chance to prove that he could be a productive member of the community - and blew it, grandly. AGF is not a suicide pact. He is already topic-banned from DYK, after a discussion here (and I confess it was my error not to note this at the time of unblock, but was corrected later); we don't have topic bans (such as from DYK, or AfC) decided by local consensus, but by the community as a whole, and we certainly do not let bans decided by the community as a whole be lifted by a local consensus. We do not "indefinitely block anyone for infinity"; indefinite is not infinite, as the saying goes. However when an editor has repeatedly proven themselves incapable of editing within Misplaced Pages's framework - which Bonkers, sadly, has - then they must be shown the door. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• (non-Admin 2 cents) I concur with the point made by Mendaliv. It is fairly clearly that no consensus exists in favor of a site ban. So perhaps the conversation should move forward with that in mind. -Ad Orientem (talk) 12:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support continued indef. As the unblocking admin, I was happy to extend both WP:AGF and WP:ROPE in hopes of the editor returning per the WP:STANDARDOFFER. However, as I mentioned above, the WP:ROPE was promptly used. There is no evidence provided that Bonkers is a teen, and none that he is really from Singapore - and as noted, these are irrelevant, as there is plenty of evidence that he is either a troll or indistinguishable from one. He was indef'd for six months, offered a return, and blew it - in spades; speaking frankly, the belief that he can reform in any set period of time has to be regarded as wishful thinking. I am neutral on the subject of a ban, however I will note that I find "he's indefed so we don't need a ban" arguments dissapointing, as if nothing else they keep other well-meaning admins from falling into the trap like I did. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:47, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• I would support a ban from any and all contests (broadly construed) and any other activities that lead to promised "shiny". He has proven he is willing to be dishonest and even destructive in the name of collecting awards/points. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support continued indef (Non-administrator comment) for the reasons I stated, what, Thursday? at WP:AN. Assuming good faith & intentions by nominator here but the previous discussions already smelled of forum shopping. The editing restrictions imposed were an appropriate sanction for this user's conduct, and they broke them within a day or two (as I recall) from being unblocked, having not been told the restrictions were lifted. Also evaded the block by engaging in sockpuppetry. Ivanvector (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban. He'll just edit under another name. But this will send a message - not just to Bonkers but to anyone reading - that racist jokes, misogyny and hoovering up AFC reviews for faux prestige aren't tolerated here. Or are they? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:56, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose siteban per Zanhe; no opinion regarding indef blocks or lesser bans. I knew what the "this article" link was, even before looking at the URL, because it's so often brought up; he's not been the best-behaved (I note the failure to heed the don't-edit-DYK requirement), but this seems ultimately to be persecution for perceived racism, rather than a proper response to a genuinely disruptive person. Nyttend (talk) 04:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose ban. Support fast close I don't participate here often, but the username was too intriguing. If drama is what Bonkers seek, then stop paying him any attention. Kill the oxygen, snuff the fire.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:22, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose community ban - Long-term content contributors deserve respect. If there is problematic behavior, specific sanctions should be targeted to that behavior. This is an editor coming off a 6-month ban being immediately dealt with by use of a metaphorical 12 gauge shotgun... Carrite (talk) 17:51, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I put a great deal of weight that was done by this editor at AfC, I personally rolled back the better part of 100 reviews, my spot checks of those reviews revealed quite a number of acceptable articles that were declined with implausible reasoning to new editors. We have almost certainly lost new editors to this editor's "work", and whatever is done, if anything, should honor the principle of protecting the encyclopedia first. --j⚛e decker 18:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support total indef ban - no more drama, please. Bearian (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• For now, support continuing indefinite block. In all honesty, I find the relatively thin block log and the one sockpuppetry episode insufficient to warrant banning. A full six months to a year without sockpuppetry and I may be tempted to support unblocking, subject to strict, indefinite topic bans for WP:AfC and WP:DYK. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 13:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User:182.249.240.21

This user (182.249.240.21 (talk · contribs)) who has multiple IP addresses has been constantly deleting sourced material on the article on Emperor Jimmu despite no clear consensus on the talk page to do so. He took his complaint to the original research noticeboard but instead of waiting for a reply he continued to delete the sourced material. The user has been continuously making accusations against me of engaging in original research, though the article clearly reflects what the sources say. In his latest post he issued a veiled threat to report me. Could you tell this user to keep discussion focused to the matter at hand without making threats and to consider alternatives to complete deletion of sourced material?CurtisNaito (talk) 16:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

New user claims to be a returning "indefinitely banned" user

FASTigerETURNS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claims at User:FASTigerETURNS/sandbox to be "a ex editor on wikipedia, who was banned indefinitely for his unhelpful comments and edits."

His edits upon returning include claiming that Iron Maiden fans burned down the Rainbow Hall after not receiving a refund for the show, killing one of the band members (easily recognizable as false with the least bit of research), citing a "personal interview" when given a link to WP:RS.

He is either evading a block or ban, or is a troll pretending to be such a user. Either way... Ian.thomson (talk) 16:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done GiantSnowman 16:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Block for ...

Pls block User:Čuraci vládnou, on Czech this means a vulgarity like "Penisses govern", -jkb- (talk) 17:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Bambifanus 1000 (talk · contribs) seems to be related because of you-know-who too based on this edit. Nate • (chatter) 18:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Google translate (mostly) verifies that (as an alternate translation), second that that's an inappropriate username. A Google Translation of his only edit so far is complaining about the block of Erinplum2, saying (more or less) that it's 'proof' that this place is 'run by dicks.' We've got a trol. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

There was actually a sock drawer replete with trolls. I've blocked all of them.--Jezebel'sPonyo 18:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

thx, -jkb- (talk) 08:48, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Cody Legebokoff

The article, Cody Legebokoff, appears to be in violation of WP:BLP and WP:Libel. I am an administrator and could clear up the article itself, but I am rarely active here any more and am less familiar with those policies than others are. My specific concerns about the article are that we use the serial killer infobox, we claim he has four victims and has been convicted of crimes when, I believe, he's plead not guilty and has not yet had a trial. And we have a section on 'Victims' rather than 'Alleged Victims'. I believe it's justifiable bringing these issues up on this noticeboard rather than on the article's talk page because of the seriousness of calling someone a serial killer when they may be not guilty. So, could someone more knowledgeable than me tackle this particular issue? Thanks! --Yamla (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't call it libel (the wordings in the article are fairly careful), but you're right: WP:BLPCRIME does indicate that for living persons accused of but not convicted of a crime, we should seriously consider not creating an article. It may be AfDable per WP:PERP as well. Even if convicted, it's likely that the appropriate place would be an article about the crimes rather than the perpetrator. In short, this article should probably be deleted; if the crimes are notable, the content may be moved to an article about the crimes. If convicted, it may be worth creating a redirect. If acquitted, it's likely that neither an article nor redirect would be appropriate. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:23, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I've also notified the article creator of this discussion. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I WP:BOLDly removed the infobox, since that almost undeniably needed doing. Neutral to other matters, but even if all other content is appropriate (again, I WP:DGAF what we do to/with the article), the infobox failed (at a minimum) WP:V and (to a degree) WP:CRYSTALBALL. I have added it to my watchlist, mainly to ensure the infobox stays out. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I've nominated the article for deletion via the AFD process as per WP:BLPCRIME. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Update: The creator (BlueSalix) has now moved the article to Trial of Cody Legebokoff. I'm not sure where that leaves the current AfD.  Philg88  07:36, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor also marked the move of the article as a minor edit, and a move is not a minor edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Trial_of_Cody_Legebokoff&diff=611917657&oldid=611917623 Robert McClenon (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

That was a clerical error on my part for which I apologize; see my explanation below in response to EdJohnston's observation. BlueSalix (talk) 18:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

That move seems POINTy to me. Like the title, the changes to article just rephrase a few things to change the putative subject. The only acceptable article I could see is an article about the crimes, which would take great care in mentioning this person who is accused of and being tried for said crime. It is, for all intents and purposes, bullshit, and given this comment it's clear that the article creator, BlueSalix, just did it to "invalidate" every prior !vote. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm unsure if the move of the article during the AfD is serious enough for an admin to move the article back and apply move protection, but it's on the border. Clearly it would have been fine for User:BlueSalix to propose during the AfD that 'Trial of Cody Legebokoff' would be a better title for the material, but he did not follow that route. As the creator of the article he should know better. Moving an article during an AfD breaks some links and messes up the AfD closure scripts. EdJohnston (talk) 18:48, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed absolutely that that would be the correct order of action, EdJohnston. That's why, in fact, (#1) I did propose it prior to executing the move (see my comment at 02:05, 7 June 2014 in the AfD), (#2) four hours later, a second editor concurred with the proposal (see his comment at 06:53, 7 June 2014 in the AfD). Only at that point was the article renamed. The one editor lobbying that the renaming is a WP:POINT issue that demands "sanction" has consistently obfuscated this sequence of events in the descriptions she's offered at the AfD and the ANI, creating an obvious question of WP:GAME (as per WP:BOOMERANG), in my mind. Regards - BlueSalix (talk) 18:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact that another editor agreed with the renaming/moving did not create consensus that a move was appropriate. I disagree that that rename was appropriate. I would have favored the writing of a different article, describing the murders, with only an incidental mention of the suspect and the pending trial. The purpose of the AFD is to obtain consensus. As EdJohnston says, moving an article while a deletion discussion is pending is disruptive. I suggest letting the deletion discussion run its course, with no need to previous Delete !votes to be re-justified. I suggest that User:BlueSalix be blocked until the deletion discussion runs its course. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I was responding, specifically, to EdJohnston's observation "clearly it would have been fine for User:BlueSalix to propose during the AfD that 'Trial of Cody Legebokoff' would be a better title for the material, but he did not follow that route" by agreeing that would have been fine, showing that it was indeed the route I followed, and to apologize that the sequence of events was obfuscated by the selective description offered in the WP:POINT lobbying which another editor has decided to pursue. Secondly, I think a holistic reading of the AfD would establish to a reasonable person that there was consensus for a renaming, as four individuals have thus far called for such a renaming and no one has objected. I kindly ask all editors make the choice to keep this discussion to topic and not try to kneecap the other side of the debate by ginning up things that need "sanction" . This is a collaborative process, not BattleWiki. And, for my part, I do not suggest Robert McClenon or Mendaliv be blocked. I trust they will accept this note of guidance in the spirit in which it was intended, continuing to offer their excellent input while choosing to responsibly limit their demands for sanctions and blockings. Thanks, Robert McClenon. BlueSalix (talk) 19:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I object to the renaming. It is quite true that this should be a collaborative process. Renaming/moving an article while its deletion is being discussed is not collaborative. There had not been a WP:SNOW consensus that renaming was appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong in correcting or rectifying the genesis of an AfD complaint during the discussion process; our goal is to improve WP not to make sure our AfDs make it through. Also, Robert, I hope you don't mind but I went ahead and notified all the substantial contributors in the Legebokoff article that an AfD had been opened, as per WP:AFDHOW. I noticed you made the choice not to do that when you AfD'ed this article. Despite that, I continue to believe you have a valuable perspective to contribute and am choosing, in the spirit of deescalation, not to reciprocate your demand I be blocked by derailing the discussion with similar demands of my own. I encourage you to join me in thoughtful dialog and collaboration, which I think you will find has a better chance of improving this article than demanding others be blocked. Thanks, Robert McClenon! BlueSalix (talk) 19:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ian.thomson. I agree the infobox was inappropriate (as was the category tag "Canadian serial killers"). BlueSalix (talk) 07:25, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Please Look into the matter

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Speedy deletion won't be enforced here (in fact it should only be enforced for copyright infringements and gross attacks/BLP violations). Furthermore, Ichgab shall refrain from re-nominating this article for any reason of speedy deletion now that these tags have been removed multiple times. There's WP:AFD for further discussions. De728631 (talk) 19:44, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I nominated the article Nirmal Kumar Ganguly for speedy deletion on more than one ground which Shirt58 reverted for no valid reason or reasons best known to him.I request the administrators to visit the concerned page and take a just decision. Ichgab (talk) 19:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no necessity to give reasons when removing a speedy deletion tag, which anyone can do except the article creator. If you still stink it should be deleted, WP:PROD it. BMK (talk) 19:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, just, God no. I don't even know what to say to you. THEY AREN'T YOUR TOOLS! You don't get to dictate to other people when they must or must not used the tools the community has entrusted with them. Placing a speedy deletion tag does not obligate an administrator to do your will. Okay, that's out, good. Now. You placed an A1 tag which is for very short context that makes it impossible to identify the subject. There is plenty of context to identify Nirmal Kumar Ganguly: he is an Indian microbiologist and has a range of career positions including "Emeritus Professor of Post Graduate Institute of Medical Education and Research and was Director General, Indian Council of Medical Research, New Delhi (1998-2007). He is currently President of the Jawaharlal Institute of Postgraduate Medical Education and Research". You listed A1 a second time, that's addressed in my last sentence. Then you listed A7. A7 is a maybe and arguable, but I think being a Emeritus Professor is enough of a claim and being director of a national government medical body is enough of a claim of importance that an AfD is necessary to determine notability and the A7 tag isn't appropriate. Please take this scolding seriously and don't ever insist that admins, or anyone, enact your will by decree.--v/r - TP 19:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ichgab, you need to stop restoring the CSD tags. Once any editor (other than the creator) has contested the speedy deletion through the removal of the tag you cannot restore it. They have been removed three times now (including by me). You need to stop edit-warring to restore the deletion tags (two of which are incorrect by the way) and take the article to AfD if you believe it does not meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion.--Jezebel'sPonyo 19:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Don't waste your time on a PROD as it will be removed too. WP:AFD if you must but I think the subject clearly meets WP:ACADEMIC. --NeilN 19:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Since I was not (as required) advised of this discussion, I'll leave this note here pour encourager les autres. I can sum up my rationale for instantly rejecting the speedy deletion in two words: Padma Bhushan. Careful with those speedy tags, please. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 03:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Uncivil editor needs to be told to back off

Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has reacted to a disagreement over two ways of interpreting policies and guidelines (essentially boiling down to m:Inclusionism and m:Exclusionism) by chiding me like a childish vandal, reacting to other's policy based reasonings with insulting dismissal or even outright ignoring it while hypocritically and baselessly claiming that others are ignoring policy based reasonings (the implication being that it's only policy based if he agrees with it). He has gone so far as to assert that adding content doesn't count as a bold edit. When it was explained to him how his conduct and attitude were inappropriate for a cooperative discussion (note the heated but civil discussion among everyone else), and that his claims regarding bold edits were against the letter and the spirit of WP:BRD, he responded by just calling me incompetent.

Is there anyone who can explain how his behavior is not in complete violation of m:Dick, if not WP:CIVIL, here? Heck, he doesn't try to defend his behavior.

He's behaving this way toward editors who doesn't give him exactly what he wants when it comes to the issue behind the contested edits. He does not have a cool head in this.

This is a clear indication that he needs to back off either from the article or from me (and probably Kevin Gorman), at a minimum, until he learns to behave WP:CIVILy. I'll leave it to everyone else to determine how this is to be accomplished. There are plenty of other people to make the inclusionist arguments at that, so there's no way this can be seen as a content dispute. Heck, as a good faith measure, if he's pulled away from that article, I'll stay away as well to even out the numbers. And if anyone wants to try to boomerang m:Dick at me, please explain how I addressed him instead of his behavior, and note that I know that an IBAN goes both ways. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Ian, I'm not sure but I think you were the first one to wave your manhood around on that talk page. Either way, of course citing WP:DICK can be DICKISH. It seems to me that there is a pretty heated argument here, but I haven't seen anything blockable yet. Yet. Now, disclaimer: I have worked with Alf in the past and find them to be knowledgeable and reasonable, and usually when they have something to say I try to listen. But that's just my opinion. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Do not understand this report but those massive long opinionated comments used as links are a great way to add weight to comments, makes them really stand out Mosfetfaser (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• I would suggest closing this section, protecting the page for a week to make people work out appropriate inclusion criteria on talk since the page has seen more editwarring since I went to freaking dinner, and not bothering to block anyone unless they do something momentously stupid. It's one line in one article sourced to one line in one source. Whichever way it ends up falling, it can wait a while to fall. (At least people are engaging on the talk page now, which is different than how it started.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 05:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

You are edit-warring, Kevin. Don't talk about page protection when *you* are the main problem (see ). And your nonsense about people "now" engaging on the talk page is also disingenuous. You engaged on the talk page briefly but now that you've got your preferred version edit-warred into place you want to lock it down with page protection? You're the one who went right to 3 reversions and then stopped like every other POV warrior with barely sufficient impulse control around here. You set the tone, Kevin. You're the administrator. Act like one.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 09:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Alf, if you keep posting like this, the section started to discuss civility issues with you might end up remaining open, lol. I engaged on the talk page from my very first revert, which I performed after the content was added. I then reverted two Wikipediocracy mods whose sole argument as to why the inclusion of the content in question was necessary was to do not do so would be censorship. I have a book that tells me what color suit Truman was ordering three days after he ordered the US drop an atomic bomb; nothing anyone could do would convince me that that was encyclopedic information. Misplaced Pages isn't an indiscriminate collection of information; removing information isn't censorship. When I put in an RFPP request, I had no idea what version of the article was going to end up protected (it flipflopped between me making the request and the request being fulfilled,) and frankly, I don't care what version got protected. Something that involves one line of content in one article sourced to one line in one source can take a week to figure out whether to leave in or take out, and nothing is going to be damaged by leaving it out or leaving it in for that week. Second off, as a minor point, if I have such exceedingly poor impulse control as to be worth attacking about it, certainly I would've been blocked for that impulse control snapping and exceeding 3rr at least once in my time here? I'd invite you to take a look at my block log and see if that's the case. 3rr says that reverting more than three times is always a problem and that reverting less than three times can be but is not always a problem. I do not consider one initial revert and then two further reverts of a Wikipediocracy mod as a problem. I also have no idea why it would be disingenuous to point out that there is meaningful engagement on the talk page currently, when there wasn't to begin with (except by me and Wllm.) To paraphrase yourself, you're supposed to be a contributor to a collaborative encyclopedia that assumes good faith and works out issues on talk pages without attacking anyone. Remember that. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:20, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Your explicit defense for edit-warring is that you were reverting "Wikipediocracy mods"? You "do not consider one initial revert and then two further reverts of a Wikipediocracy mod as a problem"? You need to review the policies on edit-warring. Furthermore, you should read what I wrote before you accuse me of attacking you. I said that you stopped at 3 reverts, just like POV warriors with "barely sufficient impulse control" do. Obviously I didn't say you have " have such exceedingly poor impulse control as to be worth attacking about it." And don't defend yourself by saying you engaged on the talk page from the beginning. You were still edit-warring and you stopped engaging on the talk page around the time you filed your RfPP which, to the everlasting shame of Misplaced Pages, you got, hours after anyone had made an edit to the article. Ridiculous.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

"you stopped engaging on the talk page around the time you filed your RfPP which" - this is a blatantly false statement, please retract it. I engaged after I filed the RfPP, and have continually engaged on the page as I have had internet access. And yes, I do not consider one initial revert followed by two reverts of a particular Wikipediocracy mod whose only defense was that removing any sourced information amounted to censorship to be terribly inapprpriate behavior. The number of edit requests you made on that page just to make a WP:POINT was ridiculous, and though stale now, does suggest that the originator of this section had a point... I'd also love an explanation of how a page being protected to stop an ongoing editwar *many hours after I filed the RfPP* is something that shame Misplaced Pages everlastingly. I had no idea what state the page would be protected in when I filed the RFPP, and you're quite aware of that. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

← For the record, I fully protected the page as per the request at a very backlogged RFPP, as there was an ongoing edit war. This is not an endorsement of any version of the page, I just protected whatever version was current. I have no horse in the race, so if someone feels the need to reverse my protection or whatever, it's all good by me. I know there was a delay between the last reversions and the protection. --kelapstick 13:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The edit-war was long over. You ought to reverse your own protection.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Alf, there was plenty of warring still, and a potential of it continuing, so I think protection was fair. BTW, I agree with your note on the talk page about the "Easter egg pipe linking" or whatever you called it--Ian, this strikes me as a bit patronizing. There is no need for all that linkage. Drmies (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Oppose I have found the editor raising this complaint to be very quick to turn combative and argumentative. He accused me of not providing links for an argument I was making, but I did and he just hadn't read carefully. He quietly changed the subject after that. Conversely the editor being accused was polite when I dealt with them once. Useitorloseit (talk) 18:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how that experience has anything to do with this situation. Liz 22:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• I would request both the participation of more uninvolved editors on the page, and the eyes of a few uninvolved admins. Alf's behavior has made me think that the original post in this section may have actually held some merit, and for reasons I can't quite fathom, Alf has launched an "informal RfC" that seems to me to bypass one of the major intended purposes of RfC's to begin with - attracting uninvolved editors for. I can't entirely fathom why he did so, and suspect the page will devolve in to an incomprehensible wall as it is currently set up. He's also made half a dozen protected edit requests with no apparent point but to demonstrate that he doesn't think the page should be protected in a pretty damn WP:POINTy way that has also spammed the page a respectable amount. Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• To provide a direct example of Alf's disruptive behavior: they have now started 26 of the sections on the entire page, including 6 meaningless edit requests that split up meaningful discussion of the issue at hand. By starting such a ridiculous number of sections, they are severely limiting the ability for useful discussion to easily occur on the page. If Alf starts another bunch of sections, I would request an uninvolved admin step in and either block Alf or simply delete the sections. Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:43, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Jazzerino's tedious editing of articles I've written and promoted to GA and FA

• Jazzerino (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After Jazzerino's series of unexplained, tedious grammatical changes and unexplained removal in the articles Confusion (album) (like this on 19:43, 6 June 2014) and Misterioso (Thelonious Monk album) (and this on 17:50), I reverted them and posted a welcome and unexplained content removal warning, advising them to use an edit summary and the article talk page to discuss their changes, which incited them to start the first in a series of antagonistic responses calling me a bully and accusing me of ownership. They have not been civil or responsive at their talk page and proceeded to make more tedious changes exclusively to other articles they apparently noticed were listed at my user page, including:

• Coltrane for Lovers (20:55, 6 June 2014)
• Election Special (20:57, 6 June 2014)
• Let's Get It On (22:39, 6 June 2014)
• Sons of Soul (22:29, 6 June 2014)
• Brown Sugar (D'Angelo album) (22:27, 6 June 2014)
• Aaliyah (album) (22:28, 6 June 2014)
• Ocean of Sound (22:22, 6 June 2014)
• Marquee Moon (22:12, 6 June 2014)
• Agharta (album) (20:48, 6 June 2014)
• Dark Magus (22:21, 6 June 2014) *Rearrangement and revision of a section against what was cited.

Apart from a few jazz articles, Jazzerino's edits in the past 24 hours have been tedious unnecessary changes and to articles I rewrote to get them promoted. I have no idea who this user is going after articles listed at my user page, possibly a new account of someone I may have rubbed the wrong way in the past. I made an effort explaining to them they should discuss reverted changes at the talk page, but they've done nothing but edit war and make accusations. Dan56 (talk) 03:13, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Without having an opinion (yet) on the actual behavior, I must disagree with the qualification of these edits as "tedious". This is an improvement, and so is this (the latter clearly indicates a difference between recording and producing, and in the case of Teo Macero the combination of the two was part of the process). Now, it may be that they're going through your edits, or it may be that they're going through jazz albums, or through FAs and GAs, or whatever. I'll look at the comments in a minute. BTW, that's a nice list of albums, though I still don't know what to think of Marquee Moon--maybe it's just not for me. Drmies (talk) 16:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Well, as happens so often, action invites reaction. Their cries of "bullying" are silly--I hate that passive aggressive "I'm being repressed" whining, but you left them templates, so I'm not surprised they think (or pretend to think) that you're waving some official stick over their head. Now, this is not fun to hear, no doubt, but I think you are wrong in your assessment of their edits. The three or four I looked at were actual improvements. I think you two should try to get along since that will improve the project. Stop templating and Jazzerino, stop whining. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • This is just a drive by comment having given zero look into the actual diffs so it deserves about as much attention as I've given in making it, however, despite whether the edits are improvements, is the behavior harassment, hounding, and antagonizing? Is Jazzerino trying to get a reaction out of Dan56 intentionally?--v/r - TP 18:58, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I've looked a dab more into this. 52 of Jazzerino's 82 edits, or 63.4% (57 edits and 69.5% to articles Dan56 has edited but aren't all listed on his userpage), have been to articles Dan56 has listed on his user page. That's a significant statistic that can't be explained simply by cross-interests in Jazz. Dan56's edits span multiple decades so there cannot be a specific sub-interest there. There are 25,115 articles in Wikiproject Jazz. Dan has edited a total of 12,802 articles total in his Wiki-career. Given the assumption that this is Dan's first time editing any page that wasn't a Jazz article (so, basically minus this post on ANI), we would be able to conclude that Dan56 has edited no more than 50.9% of all Jazz articles. Now, the reality is that the number is much smaller because I don't know how many unique non-article pages non-Jazz pages that Dan has edited, but we know for a fact that it cannot be more than 50.9%. So then, how could Jazzerino's 63.4% interaction be explained other than that he is following Dan56? As Dan56 is a very consisted contributor of some of our best content and has never been blocked for copyright violations or other behaviors that would be listed as an exemption under WP:HOUNDING, I think we can determine that Jazzerino's behavior is very inappropriately focused on Dan56 and I think that even if we can determine that Jazzerino is making helpful edits, their behavior is antagonizing and then should find somewhere else to be helpful.--v/r - TP 19:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Thank you TParis: you're earned your slice of admin pie for the day. Jazzerino, you really need to drop by here for some comment lest you leave the impression that you're following Dan around. The numbers provided by TParis are pretty suggestive, and if you want us to accept your good faith, you'd do well to confirm that you are not attempting to harass Dan, which is what hounding is all about. Drmies (talk) 19:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
• Would have to agree with Drmies. I see the changes as improvements, albeit minor ones. Just because the article is an FA, does not mean that it cannot be improved or changed for the better. Please remember it is a collaborative project, repeatedly templating good faith editors is just not good practice and often invites a hostile response. However I also do understand the concerns regarding a lack of communication over making changes, perhaps Jazzerino could do better in that respect by talking over the changes on the talk page. But Dan, you have to ask yourself whether pursuing this on ANI is really worth the effort - seems like an unnecessary escalation over very minor changes to me. As for concerns over hounding or harassment, maybe he just has similar musical interests and thought that working with higher quality articles that you have contributed to were a great starting place to pursue these interests? Maybe he is more comfortable improving existing content rather than cresting new content? I see nothing wrong with that, indeed I would take it as a compliment. Let's assume good faith here, I don't see any disruptive behaviour to suggest otherwise —Dark 19:24, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, only two of the albums I listed are jazz albums, so most of the articles he's been picking out of my user page appear to be outside the scope of someone's interest in jazz. This at Misterioso is hardly an improvement--I don't know how "choppy" (?) is being used properly in their edit summary, but what guideline is there against having a short sentence? Of the diffs I listed, how are any of them improvements? At their talk page, I made more personal messages than templated messages, which I thought are what we use for new users; to be clear, I only gave them a templated welcome and this one for deleting content without explaining why, which was completely warranted, before writing actual messages trying to reach them. Anyway, they've continued their tedious edits, including shifting a paragraph and rearranging a few phrases in an opening sentence, and this one to Agharta (album) which dramatically shortens a longer sentence, making me doubt their explanation or reasoning behind the "choppy" edit at Misterioso. Their pattern and type of editing, DarkFalls, makes it difficult to call them a good faith editor. And to respond to your concluding questions, maybe he should have said any of that himself when I asked him rather than writing me off as a bully, although his edit history shows that apart from the majority of articles associated with me, he's edited jazz articles I never have, so I don't think he's using my user page as a beginner's guide or w.e.. I've said "please" and "reconsider" and repeatedly asked nicely that he explain his questionable changes at the talk page. Dan56 (talk) 02:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Dan, of course this is an improvement. "Choppy" is an accurate description of what they saw, but the rest of their edit summary is of course of the assholish kind. So, first of all, I haven't seen a single edit of theirs that was not an improvement. You spent a million words arguing something that you can't win and I understand why, but it's useless. What you needed to argue was hounding, and TParis had to do what work for you. Drmies (talk) 13:23, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Most of the edits I listed Drmies were just superfluous diction and word rearrangements; the first edit listed was an arbitrary change from 200px to 185px of an image; the edit to Sons of Soul was placing a semicolon in front of a comma; the edit to Brown Sugar replaced the word "deal" with "contract", as with Aaliyah where they just replaced "finished recording" with "completed" (which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing that the source verifies). The edit to Ocean of Sound took "The" out of the linked The Village Voice ("the" is part of the newspaper's name). The changes to Marquee Moon were clearly not an improvement, and the edit to Dark Magus rearranged and misattributed what the sources cited actually said, including Jazzerino's erroneous change of what label actually released the album. Not improvements, but then again it is difficult to improve an article when an editor's cares more about using them to spite another editor. Dan56 (talk) 02:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Account blocked for 48 hours. Just today, Jazzerino has ignored this thread and made an additional 9 edits out of his 12 edits today to articles that Dan56 only just contributed to yesterday. That tells me this editor is clearly hounding Dan. I've given them a 48 hour block. If they return to editing nearly exclusively to articles Dan56 is editing, I'm just going to indef the account. Any objections?--v/r - TP 04:01, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • That sounds about right. No objections here. De728631 (talk) 04:08, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • His failure to communicate is a definite problem. But could we have warned him better of the consequences of his edits and poor communication? Probably. But it is your judgement call and I'll respect that. —Dark 04:41, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. Some editors are simply too stubborn and appear to ask for a block, which was mentioned in the edit warring message I made to them, that they unsurprisingly removed. Dan56 (talk) 02:20, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• • The block is fine. Attempts to discuss have been made. The edits were fine by themselves but the behavior was not: one wonders whether this editor has been here before. Drmies (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Are you saying that Dan56 edits 50% of all jazz articles but if anyone edits too many that he has they get blocked. I though Misplaced Pages articles were open for all to edit. I was not following Dan56, but when he reverted almost all the work that I had done I did edit a few of his GAs, to show that I can be of help with some of his poor syntax. I am confused here, so can this please be explained. Do I need to ask Dan's permission to edit pages he has worked on? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.200.23.75 (talk) 18:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Please don't evade your block by editing using your IP address. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not at all convinced that Drmies should be congratulating TParis. A closer look at the editor interactions cited as evidence of hounding reveal a 20-hour gap between Dan56's edits and Jazzerio's. Dan followed Jazzerino within two hours to revert their work, which I also question. Is it valid to revert helpful edits on the suspicion that the account might be following your edits? Also, are we saying that 30% of Jazzerino's edits are to pages that Dan has never edited, but that 70% is too high for coincidence? Dan has edited not just 50% of all jazz pages, he's edited every one of major consequence, so the chances that an editor who is interested in jazz articles will only edit 50% of the same ones Dan has edited is an embarrassing logic fail, and not something that should be applauded. On the other hand, Dan's wholesale reversion of all of Jazzerino's edits made to pages he "edited first" could be seen as disruptive and boomerang worthy. Compounding this is the issue that Jazzerino was never warned by an admin, he was just template by Dan56, which seems to have confused and frustrated Jazzerino, fanning the flames that led to this questionable block. Really though, a block of 48 hours without warning for a new account that has never been in trouble before is extreme in the least, and if this account is good-faith its disruptive to the project, as they will likely never edit again with this harassment charge. This ostensibly indeffs the account, if not from editing from credibility, which is at times the only currency of value here. In closing, doesn't "articles I've written and promoted to GA and FA" smack of WP:OWN? Annie Onymous (talk) 19:44, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:OUTING by JoeSperrazza

• Yes, credibility is the only currency of value here. Don't be ridiculous, Jazzerino. I have raised the block to 2 weeks for blatant sockpuppetry per WP:DUCK (first the IP and then the Annie Onymous account) and indeffed the sock account. CheckUser doesn't get asked in such blatant cases, since it wouldn't make any difference if you got a friend on the other side of the world to make these posts. Read all about it in WP:SOCK. Bishonen | talk 20:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC).

User:ChrisP2K5

Repeated addition of WP:COPYVIO links to Youtube (22 May 2014, 6 June 2014) and unsourced, WP:EDITORIAL content (22 May 2014, 22 May 2014). Level 3 warning added to user page 18 May and final warning added 27 May. AldezD (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

There's an issue at hand here, certainly, but I think that it has more to do with the user's overreaction to an edit he doesn't like. While I understand his point, the reason why I added the information is because it contradicts information that had already been there. It claimed that champions were never retired during that period and for the most part, that was true. This, however, proved an exception to the rule and because of that, I felt it necessary to include it because it was important to note it and that it was the only time after the show left CBS that a contestant was forced into retirement. It is not my intent to vandalize the page and because AldezD didn't appreciate the edit, he accused me of vandalizing the page (which, as you can plainly see by looking at the edits, it isn't). While I know that using Youtube as a source is generally frowned upon, I cannot track down the episode's actual airdate or the production number or code and was left with having to provide an external link to show that, in fact, my edit was based on legitimate data. It may not follow guidelines to the T but it certainly doesn't fully disqualify the entry as nonverifiable because it proves that A (Dunn's end) happened because of B (unnamed network practice) and thus C (the aftermath of the decision). In this case I feel an exception needs to be made and that by choosing not to allow the info to stand the information in the article doesn't seem complete because the policy of the production company was not to limit contestants' potential winnings and that this flew in the face of that idea and must therefore be mentioned- if not in the form I put it in then in some addendum to the prior material. We note rule changes on pages like these when necessary, and this is one of those instances. While I'll admit perhaps I got a little heavyhanded in commenting and apologize, I don't feel it takes away from the fact that the info presented is notable and needs to be considered when discussing the whole subject. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 07:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The allegation (which I haven't investigated) is that you repeatedly added links to videos whose hosting by Youtube violated copyright. Your longish comment ignores this allegation. What's your response to it? -- Hoary (talk) 07:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

It's one link (not multiple links). The reason why it appears I'm ignoring the allegation is because the dispute is over the inclusion of the information in general- although certainly if it was a violation of any copyright I didn't intend to do so. The point is that as the article is written, it doesn't include every complete detail and if you strip away any perceived violations on my part (I'll freely admit I could've handled things differently), that still remains. If there's an instance where someone/something had to do something because of a rule and evidence exists of the rule's application, I don't see why it can't be included. To me special circumstances are applicable. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

So, now that you're not going to add the copyvio link again, just go discuss the content issue on the article talk page and seek consensus - how does that sound? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Will do.--ChrisP2K5 (talk) 21:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Mild threat left by ChrisP2K5 at Talk:The Joker's Wild following suggestions in discussion above. User was previously blocked indefinitely and before being unblocked, was denied an unblock multiple times for WP:BATTLE mentality. AldezD (talk) 22:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I didn't threaten anything. What I said was that I was considering exercising discretion and putting the information in some form back into the article. I've been trying to explain to you that even if you discount any editorializing, perceived or otherwise, the facts are still the facts: there was an exception to the rule in place regarding there being no limit to contestants' winnings or length of time on the show and it has to be noted somehow. I still contend there needs to be some leeway given considering that even though the source I have isn't considered the most reliable by Wiki standards, short of eyewitness accounts or the actual airdate of the episode being catalogued somewhere, this is the only format in which an account of the disputed fact known to exist. I also submit that I'm not the one guilty of the WP:Battle mentality here. I also suggested a compromise which AldezD wasn't interested in, which is making me believe he isn't acting in good faith. I understand his position and in 99% of cases I wouldn't argue it. But this is an issue of having every possible bit of accurate information on the page. Mentioning prior actions isn't fair because it detracts from the argument. Since AldezD and I are the only people concerned and consensus seems impossible, I would move that the admins rule on the inclusion of the info one way or another and that whatever the decision is, both parties agree to be bound by it with no further dispute. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 02:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: although it might be very difficult to prove CBS was the network in dispute, various pages on the Wiki have noted that only they and ABC had imposed limits at the time and ABC's was significantly lower than CBS' at the time ($20K, $5k less). Don't know if that relieves anything but still. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 03:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

"I'm starting to notice an alarming lack of good faith on your part and am considering acting as such" are your words. Additionally, you've made multiple statements on the talk page for which citations or evidence has been requested in order to include them in the article. Instead, you simply re-state your argument that this information should be included rather than addressing WP:V and providing an acceptable source for your statements. You did not suggest a compromise; you again made unsourced editorial comments based upon your own unverified assumptions, re-linking copyvio video that does not provide the requested proof. Mentioning prior actions is wholly fair in that you're continuing an evidenced pattern of disruptive behavior. AldezD (talk) 03:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

But I'm not. I'm trying to include a piece of information in the article that directly contradicts a key piece of information already included in it. I've mentioned several times that a secondary source has been difficult to find, and I have tried. I don't like the fact that I can only come up with a video clip, but that's the way it is. Mentioning my prior actions takes away from the whole basis of the discussion, which I continue to stress is based on the information and the consideration by the admins than an exception be made based on the fact that even though YouTube isn't considered an RS, in this case there isn't much other evidence (if any) that exists to verify that this happened. I keep restating the argument because I don't feel you're understanding it. I also restate that if you strip away any perceived editorializing, you're still left with the fact at hand: not every Joker's Wild champion's reign came to an end by defeat, and that Jack Barry's on air statement about it is, as of this moment, the only record of it and has to be considered. If I had something else, I would show it, but I don't. But I wouldn't be arguing special circumstances if they didn't exist, and here they do. And because I don't feel you're seeing this, I feel you aren't showing me any good faith. I understand your concern and respect for guidelines and if it was any other case I wouldn't argue. But as I have said, there's something else at work here. Something that needs to be noted in some way. Again I move for a decision as a stalemate is evident. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 04:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

User:ChrisP2K5 has also just instigated a WP:Move war of the Bernie Robbins Stadium article. After being politely informed that the user's undiscussed move of the article was against the consensus established in two recent WP:RMs recorded at Talk:Bernie Robbins Stadium and given the instructions for submitting a formal WP:Requested move, the user just repeated the undiscussed move again while insisting that their point of view should prevail. This is contrary to appropriate behavior. If the user wants to propose a move of the article, there is a process for that (although I do not personally detect any change of the facts of the situation since the last two RMs for that article were closed). Before moving an article, people should check for prior recent RM records. Whether that occurs or not, if an undiscussed move is reverted and contested, discussion should take place using the WP:RM process to determine consensus – before repeating a move attempt again – regardless of what they think are the merits of the article naming situation. Before the user's second move, they were clearly told "Please do not repeat this action without submitting a formal move request to determine whether there is a consensus to make those changes" and given instructions about how to submit a formal move request. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The stadium's name changed. That's why I moved it, and told BarrelProof that I wasn't moving it without merit as an article in the Atlantic City Press concerning the change is cited within the opening paragraph. As far as I saw, once he re-reverted the move the matter ceased to be an issue. I'll leave it be. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 04:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

After this morning, after yet another attempt to try and convince AldezD to see things my way, I've decided that any further attempts to discuss this with him are futile. I don't know what else I can do to convince him that there's an inaccurate piece of information in the article that needs correcting. He simply won't consider my position no matter how many times I explain it. I'm not sure what else can be done here. I apologize for wasting the wiki's time. --ChrisP2K5 (talk) 14:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

"...To see things my way"—yet another example of WP:BATTLE. You provided additional comments at Talk:The Joker's Wild, to which I provided a reply, again requesting proof to your repetition of unsourced claims. You claim there is inaccurate information, yet after multiple requests for evidence that meets WP:V, you simply restate your original argument without providing a source, then accuse others of being difficult or lacking good faith. AldezD (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Requesting block for 172.3.208.11

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

172.3.208.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

IP constantly adds unreferenced material to various articles on Misplaced Pages and has ignored multiple warnings on their talk page. After the last revert, which can be seen here, the editor proceeded to quickly revert changes without using "undo" as seen here. Warnings from Level 1 through 4 have been given. I feel temporarily blocking the user might be what it takes to get their attention. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:37, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for reporting, GoneIn60. I might have given a short attention-getting block if I'd seen your report sooner, but it looks like they haven't edited for several days now. I wouldn't be comfortable blocking them at this point. Perhaps you could alert somebody, for instance me on my page, if you should see them returning to these practices later? Bishonen | talk 23:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC).

About editing anatomy articles

I believe that some of the allegations that User LT910001 has made about me are false, misleading, exaggerated, or inappropriate: Snowman (talk) 12:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• 1. On 5 June 2014 in an ANI, User LT90001 alleged that I had repeatedly insulted him with my edits , , by my use of phrases like "amateurish", "this is basic stuff", "badly written", and "factually wrong" to describe content of articles; see User LT90001's edit. It is my honest opinion that some of the articles that User LT91001's has recently nominated for GA status looked amateurish to me in parts, and I informed him about this primarily to be helpful to him. I said this to give him insight into the articles. I have also pointed out a number mistakes or ambiguities in anatomy articles listed for GA nominations, to save the Misplaced Pages the possible embarrassment of showing basic mistakes that would be easily spotted by knowledgeable readers. Note that Talk:Cervix/GA1 for the "Cervix" article was a GA nomination submitted by User LT91001 in April 2014 and it was failed by User:TonyTheTiger, who also participated in the Talk:Cervix/GA2 to sort out unresolved problems that were originally listed in GA1. Sadly, User LT91001 appears to misunderstand the difference between helpful objective comments and an insult or personal attack. The administrator, User:Spike Wilbury has commented about this situation saying; "I don't think making critical comments about an article or its suitability for GA status should be seen as an attack on the editors." see his edit of 5 June 2014. Snowman (talk) 12:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• 2. On 5 June 2014 in an ANI, User LT90001 alleged that I have been Wiki stalking him; see User LT90001's edit. The circumstances of some of my recent editing is as follows. I have been interested in the "Anatomy" article for years. I returned to the "Anatomy" article a few months ago and I participated in discussions on the Talk:Anatomy page with User:Casliber and User LT910001, where User LT910001 invited me to edit other anatomy articles and User LT910001 thanked me for my edits on the anatomy article; see LT91001's edit of 3 May 2014. All of the current WP Anatomy GA nominations are listed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Anatomy/Article alerts and the intention of this easy-to-find list is to alert Wikipedians of the articles that are currently active. I assume that all GA nominations are effectively invitations to every Wikipedian to participate, especially when GA nominations are also listed on a WP Project page. More recently, I have participated in three of the GA nomination discussions on the "Article alerts" list at WP Anatomy and I have made some helpful edits on the relevant nominated articles as well. I have been doing the normal work of a Wikipedian participating in GA nominations that were presented in a list. I am puzzled why User LT91001 has said that I have been wiki stalking him apparently through my participation in three (or four if the "Anatomy" article is included as well) anatomy GA articles or GA nominations. It is my honest opinion that I have not Wiki stalked User LT910001. Snowman (talk) 12:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• 3. On 5 June 2014 in an ANI, it seems to me that User LT90001 did not use a neutral heading for an ANI that he started; see User LT90001's edit. The guidelines for using the ANI page instruct users to use an "informative title that is neutral" (see the show/hide box called "How to use this page" above near the top of the main ANI page). Note that User LT90001 did not use a neutral heading for the ANI that he initiated above, which he entitled "User stalking and harassment by Snowmanradio". Incidentally, I considered started this new thread as a level three heading under that level two heading as suggested by the guidelines on this page; however, I opted to choose a neutral level two heading for this new tread, which I believe is consistent with the guidelines here, partly because of the non-neutral nature of the original level two heading. Snowman (talk) 12:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Tomotadara

Tomotadara (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is frantically trying to perform revisionist edit warring on both Misplaced Pages and Commons, disputing an image contained on 1923 Great Kantō earthquake. See also Commons:Village pump#Massacre revisionism/denialism in edits to file summaries. ViperSnake151  Talk  17:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Range block needed

Several IPs telling editors to Foff: 79.101.128.153 (talk · contribs), 79.101.150.85 (talk · contribs), 178.223.5.136 (talk · contribs), 79.101.150.85 (talk · contribs), 178.222.68.143 (talk · contribs), 109.92.197.183 (talk · contribs),all seems related t Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Igor Janev. Thanks, Dougweller (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2014(UTC)

• Maybe they're right, Doug. Maybe we should just all fuck off. But I do always like a kiss-off before a "fuck off". Drmies (talk) 20:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:Neuraxis previously known as User:DVMt

We have a number of examples of this user personalizing discussions and attempting to divide the editors in this topic area into two camps. They were also made aware of behavioral expectations on May 8th,2014

In this edit from May 13th, 2014 they state

1. "your editing behaviour seems to be congruent with this " were the page linked to is "Profile of the Sociopath"
2. "you again point to Ernst, which is outlandish behaviour as you admitted to being in contact with him (COI and meat puppetry, possibly) but he is representing the fringe opinion" however speaking with an expert is neither a COI nor meat puppetry. And Ernst is a well known and well published expert with much mainstream support.
3. "You, and other enablers, including an admin, have deliberately stymied any discussion that centres on the current practice characteristics of the profession". Those of us who disagree with some of his positions are not "enablers" and there is no evidence we have "deliberately stymied" anything. I have mentioned that he should try a RfC to get broader input on some of the questions at hand.

In this edit from May 16th, 2014 he makes the accusation of "engaging in stalking behaviour and posting bogus tags." without providing any difs.

More current issues include this comment from June 6th,2014 were he writes " Don't make the same mistakes as QG and misrepresent the literature". Concern regarding this comment was raised here on his talk page where his reply was "That's not an attack but a request that he please abide standard WP policy and to assert facts not opinions. Brangifer made a claim, I rebutted it" and "I do want to note, however, that the point I made was legitimate".

These are ongoing issues with this users editing. They were indefinitely blocked on May 24th,2014 by User:Kww for the continuation of previous issues and were unblocked by User:Adjwilley on June 2nd,2014. A previous block in April of 2013 was for sock puppetry. and the one before that was for edit warring. Please note that I edit in this topic area as it falls partly under medicine and thus would be involved. In light of this I am of the opinion that a indefinate topic ban of User:Neuraxis is warranted. User was informed of the ANI discussion here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:25, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I am away for the evening for a family engagement. Although I don't currently have the time for a proper rebuttal, I would like to present some contextual evidence. My discussions were with QuackGuru who is a long known problem editor. He was blocked last week and there has been ensuing conversations about potentially topic banning QG . I wrote a min-essay about my experience . Doc James seemingly gives QG unconditional support which may or not be related to a conflict of interest . QuackGuru has edited Doc James' biography and removed any content related to his real life controversies. I was concerned about a retaliatory measures by a high powered admin, so I began collecting diffs about questionable edits with Doc James' with respect to Chiropractic and related subjects. What I see is a basic misunderstanding of the fundamental issues regarding in how the page is edited . I am also presenting evidence that supports the notion of 'scientific chiropractic exists and is the mainstream within the profession , . You can see from my contributions that I am in no way destabilizing any article relating to the topic in question. A topic ban is basically an attempt to censor a conversation that has been occurring elsewhere surrounding the debate of mainstream vs. fringe. In short, this is who I am . Dogmatic skepticism here at WP always tries to polarize the debate. At the top of this ANI, Doc James asserts that I am 'attempting to divide the editors in this topic area into two camps." That is not true. I am asking simply "Are the use of manual and manipulative therapies for MSK disorders fringe or mainstream". I have provided evidence to support such a view, and there seems to be some cognitive dissonance and conflation going on with some editors who have a radicalized stance on this issue. Neuraxis (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Neuraxis has two agendas, but only mentions one above, which is "simply" his

• minor agenda. He "simply" asks: "Are the use of manual and manipulative therapies for MSK disorders fringe or mainstream"? Well, if that was all he was "simply" asking, then why is he doing it in the context of a controversial article like Chiropractic, and also Chiropractic controversy and criticism, one which he wants to delete? If his intentions were peaceful and "simple", he would be sticking to peaceful articles like Manual therapy and Joint manipulation, where his concerns are dealt with.

His choice of articles belies his claim and makes plain his real

• primary agenda, to advance "scientific chiropractic" (the same agenda advocated by the indef blocked User:CorticoSpinal, also a Canadian chiropractor editing from the same area).

We're looking at a backdoor attempt to push the primary agenda, and not a "simply asking" about the minor agenda. His choice of articles indicates he wants to do battle in an attempt to whitewash the articles and portray chiropractic as no longer a controversial profession which still has issues with fringe elements and unscientific ideas, but as an uncontroversial mainstream profession. Sorry, but there is still plenty of controversy and opposition found in RS which document existing problems.

If he really wished to do as he claimed with the minor agenda above, he would have chosen peaceful articles, like the ones I have mentioned (where his concerns are already settled). They would be directly on-topic to that minor agenda. The ones he has chosen are only tangential to that minor agenda, but directly related to his primary agenda, which is rather disconcerting and creates unnecessary disruption.

He's carrying on this campaign with the same wordings, tenacity, combativeness, and tactics as the indef blocked User:CorticoSpinal, and I have advised him to "avoid the same mistakes" by finding "different and better arguments if you're going to fare any better at improving these articles." CorticoSpinal was blocked for socking and doing lots of things that really wasted our time, and the same is happening again. We don't need a rehash of the same failed issues. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a radicalized stance to recognize that Neuraxis's goal is to distort Misplaced Pages's presentation of chiropractic topics by deemphasising the history and foundation of chiropractic medicine in favor of the small subset of the practice that has some legitimacy: he outlined his plan to do so here. His previous editing history at acupuncture related topics makes it abundantly clear that he is not here to improve the encyclopedia in any way.—Kww(talk) 23:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Relatedly, Neuraxis has also twice attempted to remove critical views of osteopathic manipulative treatment reported in the lede of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, and is arguing for removal of these critical views on that article's Talk page. Alexbrn 13:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Coronation Street characters being moved

Look at the history of Carla Connor, for instance, or Gail Platt--and the associated articles. I can't really figure out what's going on or who is doing what wrong, but it seems to me that the boldness is getting out of hand. So, without incriminating anyone, I'll just state that Bitbopbo is moving stuff around, ThisIsDanny follows on their heels, and Fortdj33 is involved as well (and should be banned, ahem, according to Danny). I don't know if these moves broke the GDFL, or who did what appropriately or inappropriately--I'd like someone smarter than me to look into it. Will notify. There may be more editors involved, of course. Drmies (talk) 20:24, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's perfectly possible that Bitbopdo doesn't know what they're doing. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • In hidden messages on List of Coronation Street characters it says the link must match the article, and he keeps changing the link so I keep reverting it. He has now changed the name of the article to prove that what he is doing is right, but now the whole thing is wrong as the page names don't show the character's most common name. And when I revert them back to what they originally were other people keep reverting my edits as if I'm the one who's doing the disruptive editing. ThisIsDanny (talk) 20:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Side note: I have no opinion or knowledge of or on anything. What I'm saying is let the moving and the copying and pasting stop, and let this be figured out before some poor admin has to unfuck things up. Drmies (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• I've tried to fix the various mad moves and double/triple redirects, please someone let me know if there's anything more that needs my "fixing". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:02, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that Bitbopdo made a mess of things when he moved those articles, but ThisIsDanny doesn't seem to know what he's doing either. According to him, Rita Sullivan, Fiz Brown, Gail Platt, Leanne Battersby and Carla Connor are the proper names for those characters. I'm not doubting that, but any changes should be made to the original articles, and not to the redirects. Therefore, we should be dealing with moving the articles Rita Tanner (Coronation Street), Fiona 'Fiz' Stape, Gail McIntyre (Coronation Street), Leanne Tilsley (Coronation Street) and Carla Barlow to the proper titles, because that's where the edit history for those articles is. I only used the "Coronation Street" disambiguation, because I couldn't move the articles back to the original names, but ThisIsDanny only made things worse, by trying to redirect everything back to the cut and paste versions. I don't claim to know anything about those characters either, but in order to sort things out now, a history merge will need to be made for all of them. Fortdj33 (talk) 21:09, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I only cut and pasted everything and changed the redirects to get the original page back. I didn't know how to merge articles or delete the ones that Bitbopdo created. The names of the articles should be Rita Sullivan, Fiz Brown, Gail Platt, Leanne Battersby and Carla Connor. Which is what they've always been and don't need changing. I agree it's gone out of hand, I was just trying to get things back to normal. ThisIsDanny (talk) 21:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Understood. Please now don't "copy and paste" any article from one to another. There's going to be some issues to be resolved around the licensing arrangements we have when we submit stuff to Misplaced Pages (even this post I'm writing now) so someone clever is going to need to find out exactly what's happened to what articles and fix it. Can you help with that, can you describe exactly what's happened? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:13, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I just had a look at all the articles/moves/redirects in question and it looks like this is sorted out from an attribution/history perspective. The only thing I would suggest is moving disambiguated names to non-disambiguated names where they are the only topic (I see at least two), but that isn't a discussion for AN/I --kelapstick 13:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

They look right to me too. User:Anthony Appleyard histmerged three of them (contribs, logs), requested by {{histmerge}}. Fortdj33 and Drmies reverted the other two. I added {{Copied}}s. Flatscan (talk) 04:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User is continuing with lots of page moves Special:Contributions/Bitbopbo. No response to comments on their talk page or here. Liz 13:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Seconding that this is still a concern. I don't know enough about the topic to revert the most recent moves; is Gail McIntyre (Coronation Street) under discussion somewhere? but have added a further note to Bitbopbo's talk page. Yngvadottir (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Promotional username and edits

Xbrlus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The editor above has been making edits to the financial facts in the infoboxes of major corporations in line with the ideals of a commercial enterprise with the same name and goals, xbrl.us/Pages/default.aspx. A typical edit looks like this with SEC sources in XBRL formatting. Beyond the obvious username violation, Tutelary queried their edits on their talk page a few days ago and has received only a limited reply which included an admission that some of the information added is out-of-date. Some of the information being replaced seems both newer and more accurate. The rapid-fire editing has resulted in numerous changes that ignore long-standing talk page consensus about various sources and the presentation of specific financials.

I'm not saying there isn't any value in what they're contributing but significant changes without any discussion with an obvious agenda are troubling. St★lwart 00:14, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The reason why I queried them is because they were doing 4-5 edits a minute, and that much information I don't think can be added manually in that time span. My original concern was that they were using/operating as a bot, but didn't have the bot flag. Just a clarification, I questioned them on it today, not a few days ago. Here's their response: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Tutelary&oldid=612008638#Bot.3F Tutelary (talk) 00:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, yes you did. I'm applying my Australian clock and I'm half way through the 8th. Your original concerns were and are valid, I think. And my concerns remain. St★lwart 01:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet

It would appear 112.207.48.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is a sockpuppet of Jeuzreel Villasante (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The IP's edits have been exclusively removing sockpuppet notices on the userpages of confirmed socks of JV. Calidum 03:36, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

That does look suspicious. I've blocked the IP. De728631 (talk) 03:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Seeing this revision history I wish we could block the block the whole 112.207.* range but then that would probably affect loads of uninvolved connections. De728631 (talk) 04:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

69.118.194.22

User 69.118.194.22 has been editing disruptively, primarily at List of programs broadcast by Toonami. Some examples: In these edits the user adds unsourced content about Dragon Ball Z Kai, which they assert will air in Fall 2014 uncut. Per WP:CRYSTAL, future dates must be sourced. These sorts of "scoop" edits are a regular nuisance for WikiProject Television. Similar bits of information have been submitted numerously by other IPs, without proper sourcing. As a work-around, some of the pieces of information were left in the article markup, but were commented out so that they wouldn't appear in the article as unsourced content.

This suppression was reverted a few times by other IPs, and later they were reversed by this IP, but I'll get back to that in a second.

Unrelated to this editor's edits, I'd raised an objection about the column of Parental Ratings that were in the article (for example in this revision). I proposed they be removed because they don't seem verifiable per WP:V, most of the information came from the primary source, and MOS:TV explicitly discourages such lists. There was some discussion on the talk page, and I also invited WikiProject Television to contribute. The Parental Ratings were removed by 23W with a clear explanation, "removed ratings (regex: "\n\| ?TV-.*"→"") per WT:TV#Parental TV ratings at various kids' TV articles."

IP 69.118.194.22 reverted that edit without explanation here, then here. That was clearly disruptive.

They then removed the aforementioned suppressed, unsourced content here, then here, and then they juggled a reference around and apparently tried to sneak the information past in this edit by using a June 5th reference to support June 14th content. This editor appears to be asserting their own will, they haven't participated in any discussions and their edits are disruptive, overall. Since they are so adamant about what content is slated to be broadcast at Toonami on June 14, I'm requesting a block until June 15 to discourage this "gotta get the scoop" behavior. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi protecting the page till June 15 should do the trick in case they try IP hopping. Unless of course the IP is fairly static. Blackmane (talk) 12:29, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I suspect the user also made these edits from 24.0.102.136 as both IPs geolocate to New Jersey. I've requested page protection. The Toonami page isn't the only page they've been disruptive, though it is the main one. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Accidental editing

Hi, I've accidentally edited with my Wikimedia Commons account on English Misplaced Pages, which has a username which is prohibited according to the English Misplaced Pages username policy (but not on Wikimedia Commons) - I keep a separate account on Wikimedia because that's how I want my photos attributed. I obviously don't want the account removed from Commons, but is it possible to remove it from enwiki only? Or should I just let things be? JPNEX (talk) 04:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

If you'd like I can block it, if it would simplify matters for you. There is no real way to 'remove' accounts though. NativeForeigner 07:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't be possible to link the accounts, so I don't have to log in and log out when I switch? Also what does blocking entail, exactly? Would there be a big "this user is blocked" thing on the userpage? THanks JPNEX (talk) 05:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

You might wish to check at WP:BN, but I think due to WP:SUL issues that's not possible, unfortunately. I would block you, but you could simply make a blank userpage, and it wouldn't appear. I would make the block reason something explanatory. I certainly dont' need to block it though. NativeForeigner 05:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification! So it'd be enough if I were more careful not to edit under that account in the future?JPNEX (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it should be fine. If you know you should avoid editing with it that should be enough, per common sense. NativeForeigner 07:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, then I know! I'll be careful. Thank you. JPNEX (talk) 10:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Some admin take a look at this? Weird talk page behavior.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Va%C4%8Dice_Vejvan%C4%8Dice <- The user is a blocked sock puppet but appears to be consistent in editing their talk page, transcluding an administrator's comment as a reply to their own, when in reality they never commented on the user. Additionally, there is a large amount of non-English contributions and tons of images added, as well transcluding parts of User:Vejvančický's talk page. I'm confused on what to do about it, so I sought to bring it here for the overview of other administrators. Tutelary (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Taken care of. Reverted page, revoked talk page access, pointed them to UTRS. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess this could be closed then. I just wasn't sure what to do, didn't know if this was the right place. Tutelary (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

It's the right place, you did it the right way (including notifying him), kept it short and completely on topic, which made it easy to resolve quickly. Perfect way to handle it. Someone will come along and close it in a bit. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:34, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Ghana

An editor Masssly (talk · contribs) has come on the Ghana page because he does not like the fact that it contains information about the Akan the countries largest ethnic group. They make of most of the population most of the nations history and culture is influenced by them, but this user is making agenda based edits. I am guilty of losing my temper and warring with him. ..I have been editing this article for a while and have encountered my share of issues. Most of them have been fighting but in the end we "kiss and make" but this editor has an ethnic agenda. I have never encountered like this. His whole agenda is to prevent the article from mentioning the Akan people. It doesn't make sense because article on mention them in sections that implies to them only. My guess is he he from another one of Ghana tribes and he does not like the Akan that's why he automatically began with disruptive behavior and removal of sources and well sourced content. He is hindering people from making contributions to the page.Looking at this past edits it seems to be a pattern so, I am requesting of administrative intervention Thesunshinesate (talk) 18:11, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have notified editor Masssly (talk · contribs) about this report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thesunshinesate (talk • contribs) 18:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Normally, I would say this is just a content dispute, but at a glance it does look like he is trying to remove many of the Akan mentions, sources and all. I noted that the number of mentions of the word "Akan" had doubled recently, so he may have a point on some of this as it might be WP:UNDUE. His tone in dealing with a variety of issues is very problematic, however, and you both seem to be in an edit war (along with others), and template bombing each other a bit. Regardless, I've fully protected the article for 4 days. The main problem is still content, and admin don't decide content, editors do. You both (and others) need to user the article talk page and hammer this out before someone gets blocked. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• • Very true, also the places they are mentioned are mostly in demographics and culture. I don't think it a surprise that largest group in the nation will in these places they have influenced. It's impossible to talk about the languages of Ghana and leave out Akan languages which 80% of the people speak. This editor has started a pointless war..this is an encyclopedic article not a personal blog. It would be a different issue if they weren't facts. All the information is articulately sourced and it's the same information you will find in books and academic journals about the country. So this editor his hatred or agenda based edits against that particular ethnic group needed to stopThesunshinesate (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• • • I linked WP:DUE for a reason. Just because something is able to be sourced doesn't mean you can include it. It is all about balance. Mentions of "Akan" are up over 50% in the last 2 or 3 months, so it is entirely possible it is overused. Again, for editors to decide, not admin. Go to the talk page of the article (after reading WP:DUE) and work it out, and if you can't, go to WP:DRN. If edit warring starts back, there will likely be blocks issued. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• • • • Got it, thanks. Thesunshinesate (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

User: MosesM1017

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I thought I would share this with you as it doesn't look like an administrator has seen this yet. User:MosesM1017 created a bias short article called . It looks like this is bias because it is a short article with the phrases "wanting to become" and "is trying to". It also violates the policy of living people without references and is also un-notable. The Newspaper (talk) 20:56, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The Newspaper Article appears to have been deleted by the honorable Dennis Brown. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

You flatter me. In the future, Newspaper, you can just tag the article for speedy delete and it will be automatically put in a queue for an admin to look at. Twinkle (in Preferences/Gadgets) has automated scripts that make this two click easy. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe I am being trolled

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Please read the entire discussion at Talk:Charlene,_Princess_of_Monaco#Statement. First, Blitztall ignores my attempts to discuss for five days. Then she or he refuses to address any argument I presented. I list eleven examples to back me up, but she or he dismisses them all as irrelevant and insists that I am pushing my "own personal subjective opinion" (pleonasm alert!). I ask why the examples are irrelevant three or four times, and each time she or he refuses to answer. "At the end of the day, it is still my opinion versus your opinion." I get that after citing 11 examples going back to 2007, clearly having proven what is an established practice; but no, she or he dismisses it as "my opinion". On top of that, her or his opinion is somehow superior to mine.

It feels like I am being trolled here. This is not a discussion of any sort. This is me rummaging through Misplaced Pages and official websites, only to be told: "I do not see the relevance in any of your examples or arguments Let it be and waste your time on something else..." Just like that. "I am not going to discuss this further and I conclude therefore that no consensus has been reached." I am not really concerned about mild personal attacks; I am merely baffled by what can only be described as blatant trolling. I have no idea how to proceed. Surtsicna (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and what you need in cases like these are more editors participating in the discussion and it looks like that is happening here. Liz 22:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:DR. Liz is correct, wait for outside opinion. Posting this on ANI is likely to resolve nothing. —Dark 22:20, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see that two editors have chipped in since I posted here. (Perhaps because I posted here?) I did request a third opinion two days ago, and got it, but Blitztall ignored it as much as he ignored me. I take it that you do not think this is a case of trolling? Surtsicna (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Make sure you assume good faith. Accusing someone of trolling when you are involved in a dispute with them is not helpful. Considering the outside opinion was given an hour ago, it is not unreasonable to think that Blitztall may not have seen it. Saying that he is ignoring the opinion is extremely misleading. —Dark 22:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Saskatchewan Communities & Neighbourhoods-related

Neither Theopolisme or Wolfgang42 have responded to my concerns with WP 1.0 bot. Please either block WP 1.0 bot or protect User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/Project/Saskatchewan Communities & Neighbourhoods-related. Thanks, 117Avenue (talk) 04:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I have added a nobots template to the page. Let's see if that works. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Editor Neutralhomer - Purge deletion and protection abuse.

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Pauley Perrette article is being sanitized her her publicity agents. Though the article cites a Fox News Article, an apparently negative article from Newscorp's other entity The New York Post is not a "reliable" source.

Any reference to the cigarette advertising campaign Pauly Perrete did for Virginia Slims is removed and purged.

Is this proper behaviour for a Wiki editor?

I'm not even saying add the info to the article, just putting it up on the talk page to discuss it being added to the article. Neutralhomer has acted as gatekeeper only allowing positive material to make it onto this page. 50.12.11.152 (talk) 04:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have informed Neutralhomer of this thread. Reyk _YO! 05:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • 50.12. et. al. is an IP hopper who has long been vandalizing the Pauley Perrette article among others. The user has been warned by everyone from myself to Jimbo himself. The anon's actions have caused the Pauley Perrette page to be semi-protected, as well as the talk page. Jimbo himself has done this in the past because of the same edits by the same anon using the same ISP. Now, because the anon's favorite article has been locked down, he has come here to whine. I suggest we dismiss this thread and the anon, and put down some rangeblocks to prevent further annoyance. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 06:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

- Obviously Publicists are using Misplaced Pages as their preferred forum to only disseminate certain information for their clients. "Pauly P, It's a Women's thing" Virginia Slims Advert, is relevant info. Furthermore only Parette's side of a contentious divorce is being heard. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be impartial, and not used for personal press releases.

50.12.11.152 (talk) 14:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Another disruptive and abusive editor in ARBPIA

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Could an admin please put a stop to Wayne22222's disruptive editorializing and soapboxing at Israeli settlement, as well as their abusive edit summaries ? They have made the same terrible edit 5 times so far (see Special:Contributions/Wayne22222). The article is covered by the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions and 1RR. I'm guessing that there is no point trying to reason with them. Perhaps it's another JarlaxleArtemis account (see on this noticeboard). Sean.hoyland - talk 06:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I can think of three reasons why Wayne22222 should be blocked. 1) Edit-warring, 2) personal attacks, and 3) obvious socking. Take your pick. Doc talk 06:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User 50.79.182.145 Vandalism

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I discovered a case of blanking by this user and when I checked their contribution history it was full of blanking and inappropriate vandalism. Since this is an IP, I am not aware of how to leave a notice for them.

here

here

here

full contributionsScoobydunk (talk) 09:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Wrong venue. WP:AIV is what you're looking for. Doc talk 09:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User_talk:Russavia#Unblock_request

Russavia (talk · contribs · email · block log · global contribs)

Forwarding this to ANI for community opinion as suggested by Spartaz. Jee 09:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's time. Block him again if he trolls again. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Anthony, I work extensively with Russ on Commons (just to be entirely open, he re-nominated me for adminship there) and his dedication to the free content movement is unwavering (just one example - he often lets me know if he has found or uploaded a good photo we can use to improve an article on en.wp). He would, I believe, still be bound by the terms of the topic ban imposed by Newyorkbrad which restricts him from interacting with Jimmy and I'd expect that topic ban to remain in place for the foreseeable future if unblocked. Nick (talk) 10:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Spartaz's comment on Russavia's talk page in response to the request: inadequate recognition/contrition of his disruption. Also, his block log shows problematic activity too recently. DeCausa (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Unblock. Our only purpose here is to build a source of free knowledge, and Russavia is very much committed to that and has been a very positive contributor. The existing block was appropriate, but it has served its purpose now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  (Just a general comment: In cases like this, there is often too much stress on wanting to see grovelling contrition. But we shouldn't be here for that, just to determine whether an editor will make positive contributions in the future. I personally don't care whether Russavia is even sorry or not, as long as I don't think he'll do it again. And I don't. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC))

• Is a Jimmy Wales topic ban and a one-way user Jimbo Wales interaction ban proposed to prevent any possibility of further trolling in that area? Johnuniq (talk) 11:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Continued concerns as the user says the "cause" was simply "drafting an article" where it is clear that the cause was not simply the "drafting" of an article, but was a tad more far-reaching than that. I will note that I have edited on articles brought to my attention on the UT page where I found Russavia's concerns valid. Collect (talk) 11:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Here's my problem: Russavia does some good work. However, when he goes off the rails, he goes so far off the damned rails that he end up in a different area code. Saying "stop it" doesn't work. Saying "seriously, stop it" doesn't work. Saying "for fuck's sake would you STOP" doesn't work. Unfortunately, the level of damage to both the project and the goodwill of its editors/readers between the first "stop it" and "for fuck's sake" is astronomical. I'm not seeing any way forward noted towards this issue the panda ₯’ 11:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  I share that concern too - but surely a quick block would be the answer in the case of future problems? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  I haven't decided here, but I think Boing! is on to something. A few editors here (who shall be nameless) do a lot of good work but occasionally go off the deep end, and we have resigned ourselves to the fact that the best way to deal with them is to just block them for one to four weeks every now and again when needed, but not indef block them. Is this one of those cases? I'm not sure. Handling editors this way isn't exactly covered by policy (excepting perhaps WP:IAR) but is often the most effective way for usually productive and prolific editors. I'm curious if this is one of those cases.Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support unblock. As the saying goes, unblocks are cheap (and by extension, reblocks are cheap as well). I'm personally of the opinion that the higher profile the unblock request is (i.e., getting an ANI thread and multiple rapid responses), the faster a reblock will be issued should the editor in question deviate from all but the most appropriate behavior. In this particular case, I get that there's a pretty long history, and possibly some concerns as to whether the unblock request sufficiently takes ownership of the problems that led to the block. I think in light of Russavia's work at Commons, we can afford to be a little accommodating. Taking ownership of past problems is best, but I don't know if I'd call it so essential as to negate everything and anything else a user could possibly bring to the table. Now, whether the "anything else" Russavia brings to the table is still enough to offset any concerns with the unblock request is, frankly, not one I'm prepared to answer... but I'm personally willing to take the chance based on what I've said above. Yes, there's a long history of problems with this user... but an evident energy and dedication. I'm not willing to say Russavia is either a malefactor, nor am I willing to say Russavia can not contribute positively. And if following the unblock things go back to how they were... again, reblocks are cheap. Those involved might even gain support for a full-on siteban. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 12:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose at the moment. Russavia's explanation of his June 2013 block is disingenuous to say the least. He was blocked for trolling and BLP violations. I don't expect him to grovel, but I do expect him to acknowledge this and would like to see a clear statement that he will cease the dramamongering he is rather well known for. Either way, I think Newyorkbrad's topic ban as mentioned here should also be carried forward as a condition of unblocking. Resolute 13:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Just a few notes - I see a very extensive history of problematic behaviour and a remarkable stubbornness and inability to drop an issue when he thinks he is right. However, anyone looking at the unblock request should be aware that a lack of apology for the past is only relevant if it would determine his behaviour in the future - is he likely to make the same mistakes? Animosity over past behaviour must be balanced with the likelihood of recidivism in the future. In the event of an unblock, I would presume that certain editors would be closely monitoring Russavia's behaviour and would not hesitate to reinstate the block. So Russavia would be walking a very fine line. The question is, does his potential positive contributions on Misplaced Pages outweigh both the effort in monitoring his behaviour and the risk of a recurrence of drama? —Dark 13:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Boing's point has merit in that a quick reblock will likely mitigate a large portion of the drama involved, assuming of course that a potential future block is done promptly and accurately, and is clear-cut. However unfortunately I think we all know that a less optimally placed block may not have the same effect. This is too often the case with high-profile controversial editors. Not to mention that effort must be exerted to monitor his future contributions. My point is that reblocks are much more... expensive than they may appear. —Dark 13:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Based on this users past actions, the act of unblocking itself would lessen wikipedia.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support – He's a pretty constructive contributor both at Commons and here, and should be given another chance, but an admin should block him if he trolls again or violates his restrictions. Epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support - We all fuck up on occasions and IMHO we all deserve second chances, or perhaps 3 or 4 chances with some!, He's a constructive editor both on here and Commons and If I'm honest I can't see a repeat happening. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 14:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - by my count he has been blocked 14 separate times. What makes anybody think that the next time he is unblocked will be any different than the previous times? He is a serial troll and loves to make personal attacks. Please see the deletion request on Commons for the trolling video (discussion ending about January 1, 2014). Russavia hasn't reformed his style of personal attacks, attacking even the closers on this. He can't admit that he is wrong, even when it is blatantly obvious. And for those who say that it will be a simple matter to block him here if he trolls again, read deletion request carefully and see how long it took, how many cheap shots he took and how many cheap tricks he used to delay the inevitable. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Can you provide specific links to the personal attacks please. I would also like to note that discussions 6 months ago is perhaps not the best indication of future behaviour. —Dark 14:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • examples

"He's said all he needs to say? Really? Did you know that I would be well within my rights to sue the pants of Jimmy if I were so inclined. Remember that it is Jimmy who regards these projects as a workplace, and he has publicly accused me of sexual harrassment, without any solid evidence to back it up. In the real world that is called libel. And in the real world, we wouldn't have the peanut gallery and fanboys like we have surrounding this issue, it would be me and him. And things such as this ("I'm actually just a talk page troll.") would be introduced into evidence. As would the multitude of witnesses I would be calling who have been publicly defamed by Jimmy. And then we have his numerous boneheaded tirades against many in the Commons community, and against the community itself, because people in the community dared to question him. So cut it out Colin, Jimmy is far from innocent. Don't like what I have to say? Stiff shit. russavia (talk) 22:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)" (from hatted section

(further down) "Umm, no, I have never had disputes with Jimmy, I've asked him to supply OTRS once, gave him a couple of user rights here on Commons, and responded to a posting he made on COM:AN, and asked him to comment on a proposal to make it easier for child porn to be reported. That is the extent of my interactions with Jimmy. The whole dispute thing was the invention of User:Newyorkbrad who read some crap on an external site, and when I challenged him on this, he said that I was being ingenious and I should go look at Commons. When I proceeded to challenge the meme that Newyorkbrad pushed, the solution was to indef block me from en.wp. Oh, and I defended Jimmy once on Quora.com when he was being hounded by trolls. Now, if you have evidence of disputes, show me where these disputes are please. Otherwise, if all you have is the above, I must be the nastiest, pettiest and most vindictive son-of-a-bitch ever to walk on the face of this planet. russavia (talk) 14:31, 22 December 2013 (UTC)"

It may not be obvious on that page, but the now removed picture, that appears to be signed by one of the closers, and places the closer in a negative light, was added by Russavia.

As far as Dark's "but that was 6 months ago" complaint. Please allow us to consider what he did six months ago, as well as for the 14 times that he has been blocked here - what else have we got to go on? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I see the 6 month period as a mitigating factor. Obviously the discussion is important but only if they determine future conduct. If Russavia had been without issue for 6 months, why could he not do that on this project? —Dark 15:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Yes, Russavia has trolled Jimbotalk and poked Jimmy Wales — for which he was punished. He did the crime and has done his time; obviously a repetition of similar behavior will end badly for him. However, Russavia remains a dedicated and productive Wikimedian and is entitled to a reasonable path back to En-WP. Punishments should fit transgressions, bans and blocks should correspond to actual actions and not hysterical anticipations of potential bad actions. If he screws up again, another lengthy block is a simple thing. Carrite (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Someone with a long track record of blocks, someone who has attacked and trolled other editors, and someone who doesn't acknowledge the reasons for the legitimate block they are requesting be lifted should not be unblocked. Deli nk (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Russavia has his big, big share of disputes and problems, but I don't see a big issue in giving him another chance. We can always block him back if he misbehaves (again). → Call me Hahc21 15:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support. I've never seen much of a problem with what he was blocked for in the first place (others, obviously, disagree), plus there was much baiting and tainting from the other side as well. At any rate, we would be depriving ourselves of a net positive contributor if we let this block stand.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 9, 2014; 16:20 (UTC)
• On Process If I'm not mistaken, shouldn't this be at WP:AN instead of WP:ANI.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Arguably it belongs at AN rather than ANI, but it is probably too late to move this discussion bodily over there. I will post a cross-notice instead. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I'm fine with that. Thank you.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock. I failed to see any reason other than his conflicts with Jimmy here as the block reason. He used Commons for it where he was/is much strong. But we stopped him there. He was de crated and that controversial work was deleted. It is already too late to forget those things. And it is up to him whether or not to make a clean start. Here, in Misplaced Pages, he is just an editor without any additional rights. Then why afraid to give him a chance? Jee 16:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Firmly Opposed Fool me once... Seriously, we have a stubborn user with a gift for extending disputes for the sake of prolonging the drama who successfully harrassed and humiliated another user to perpetuate a long standing and bitter feud. Are we really so short of home produced drama that we want to extend a welcoming to a user whom I guarantee will actively help to further corrode the toxic editing atmosphere here. I don't see any acknowledgement of the harm or trouble that they caused. Enough surely? Spartaz 16:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: I won't cast a !vote here as, shortly before the indefblock by Spartaz, I imposed a sanction against Russavia pursuant to the BLP special enforcement provision, prohibiting him from making any edits or uploading any images concerning Jimmy Wales. Since the indefblock on English Misplaced Pages, as noted above, Russavia continued to pursue what I perceive as harassment and trolling of Jimmy Wales on Commons for several months, suggesting to me that he did not accept that his conduct in the Pricasso matter was disgraceful. Separately, Russavia has been using his English Wikpedia talkpage (to which he has had continued access) to (among other things) draw attention to on-wiki copyright violations. In and of itself, that is commendable and is certainly a more productive use of talkpage access than we see from a lot of other indefblocked users. However, in one instance, Russavia pointed out a copyvio from the Encyclopedia Britannia; the copyvio was deleted from the current version of our article, but not from every previous version (it affected enough versions that removing all of them would have compromised the attribution history); when an administrator declined to go back and rev-delete every previous version, Russavia stated on-wiki last month that he "contacted EB on 13 May 2014 to inform them of this copyright violation, and the community's seeming refusal to deal with it appropriately." While I can imagine that one might in good faith contact a copyright owner if Misplaced Pages was refusing to address a copyright violation in a fashion that posed a serious and immediate threat to the value and integrity of the subject intellectual property, that was not what was going on here, and I have absolutely no idea why Russavia acted as he did, except to cause trouble. I also note with disapproval that this past weekend, in connection with Wikimedia mailing list discussion of a poorly written and error-laden magazine article about a recent Wikiconference, Russavia suggested that "here is the option of contacting directly, or the chief editor of the magazine, for further comment/clarification. Or the Misplaced Pages way--create a totally neutral on-project biography. ;)" Despite the "smilie," any such suggestion that we would create a BLP of a journalist in retaliation for the journalist's coverage is severely out of order. BLPs must never be created or edited as a form of retaliation against the article subject or misused in connection with an off-wiki dispute, nor may any suggestion of doing so be made at any time. If Russavia is to be unblocked, which I'm not personally convinced is the best idea, it should be with appropriate restrictions bearing in mind the types of issues with which he has been involved to this point. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

  My impression on the mailing list comment is that it was made in jest. However whether it is advisable to make such a comment even in jest is questionable, sometimes things are better left unsaid or maybe to a more appropriate audience. —Dark 17:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I, too, took the mailing list comment as ironic impersonation - mocking Misplaced Pages's propensity to be used to torture one's enemies. But you know irony and the internet.

As for his contacting Britannica about us hosting a copyright violation in the article's history: That was done after requests for clarification or RevDel were either dismissed or ignored by User:GorillaWarfare, User:Tom Morris and legal@wikimedia.org. I wonder if it would have progressed to that if someone had explained the situation to him as User:Moonriddengirl later took the trouble to. Regardless, that he alerted Britannica to (what he perceived to be) a violation of their rights is no reason to ban him from contributing here. If there were dozens of encyclopedias sitting at the top of Google for just about every query we could act like a cult and exclude critics. While Misplaced Pages enjoys a monopoly, we don't enjoy the right to exclude anyone for expressing concerns about the project to non-Scientologists non-Wikipedians.

I'll support a permanent ban from this project (and all other projects) if his future behaviour shows he hasn't learned the difference between critique and using the project to perpetrate a gross sexualised insult. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Since my name has appeared, I should note for the record that Russavia did tell me about the copyvio over IRC. Alas, I have been quite busy in real life recently, so didn't get a chance to look into it. I have no strong opinion on Russavia's unblock. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support unblock pace NYB's valid comments. Russavia will be on a short leash, I have no doubt. Drmies (talk) 17:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support (and assume the NYB restriction remains in place.)--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock - The unblock request doesn't actually cover the real reasons for his block, so there is no evidence that they see the reason for their block or any promises to abide by the rules so they don't get blocked again. I'd like to see a proper unblock request that actually speaks to those reasons. Canterbury Tail talk 17:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose After his polandball racism, the penis paintings, I am surprised anyone actually takes anything he says seriously. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support with some reservations and a very short length of rope, including some restrictions discussed above. We ARE here to build an encyclopedia, and on a good day Russavia has proven he is helpful towards that end. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Judging by his actions while blocked, unblocking him would only lead to even more waste of time and energy. Too bad en.wp can't do something about his antics on Commons as well. —Neotarf (talk) 19:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strongest possible oppose Russavia isn't here to build an encyclopedia anymore, Russavia is here to challenge what we're willing to accept in the form of decency and advocate the free culture. There are two camps, those that view Russavia as starting drama and those who view the reaction to Russavia's actions as disruption. I'm in the camp that believes Russavia is fully aware of how his actions will be perceived and either has poor judgement or willful disinterest in the good of this project and is the cause of the disruption himself. I find him callous, full of himself, and rude. Further, Russavia has proven that he cannot work within the confines of any restriction placed on him, proposals above for any sort of condition for his unblock are folly and unwise. We can look at his history to know how any restriction he agrees to will end. His block log reads:
  • "Please don't use talk page to announce an intention to sock"
  • "Violating the ban from interacting with Volunteer Marek"
  • "Eastern Europe topic ban violation"
  • "Continued violation of TBAN on talk page, TBAN Per AE report"
  • "Violation of interaction ban"
  • "Interaction ban violation"
  • "Violation of unblock terms (Posting at AC/N). User will be unblocked when and if an ArbComm request concerning the mailing list incident occurs."
  • "Making legal threats: This wikilawyering has gone on long enough"
  • "Violation of Soviet history topic ban while blocked by soapboxing on own talk page"

Frankly, Russavia is incapable of respecting any restriction set on him. He has zero self control. There is no arguing here, we have ample history to judge him by. Any positive contributions Russavia was capable of providing the encyclopedia has long since expired. He has dug himself into such a hole that it would take a paradigm shift of enormous proportions to return to the type of character traits that are beneficial to the encyclopedia and to lose the ones that lead him to disruptive behavior. No no no, do not unblock.--v/r - TP 19:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose. Above, Newyorkbrad has shown nicely that nothing about Russavia has changed since the last time he was blocked. Nothing good will come of this. --Conti|✉ 20:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong support. This is an extremely productive user with a large number of high-quality contributions, many of which are in much-neglected areas of Misplaced Pages. We cannot afford not to take advantage of his knowledge and productivity - after all, building a comprehensive, high quality comprehensive encyclopaedia is our goal. It is now well past "time served" for this user. I'd like to note that, during his time in the enwiki "jail", he has been very active in Wikimedia Commons, where he has uploaded an astronomical amount of high-quality photographs among other contributions. It is now time to let English Misplaced Pages profit from this user as well. It makes no sense to continue confining him to Commons and deprive our encyclopaedia of his high-quality contributions. Nanobear (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Newyorkbrad's analysis. The unblock request indicates that Russavia does not realise the magnitude of his previous behaviour, and if we unblock we would likely see that behaviour repeated. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Nanobear. Overall, I believe that this user will be a net positive if unblocked. I don't question the idea that he has problems: that's blatantly obvious, but he has more positives than problems. On top of that, some of the "oppose" rationales are nonsense; for example, Polandball was definitely not racist: it was an intra-European thing, not to mention the fact that writing about racism doesn't necessarily make you racist. Nyttend (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support basically what Nick said. Legoktm (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support In dubio pro reo. --Steinsplitter (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support unblock Russavia has made some fine contributions, provided he can manage to keep himself on the straight and narrow (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) unblocking will be a positive. I am sure that given the high profile, a reblock will be swift, if necessary. --kelapstick 22:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose unblock. I don't believe that Russavia has the best interests of Misplaced Pages in mind, and is unlikely to be a net positive if unblocked here. He's done valuable work on Commons, but has also more than occasionally engaged in behavior that would likely bring him a civility block if he had done so here, not to mention his prior block record. Additionally, his unblock request doesn't meaningfully address the reasons he was blocked in the first place, and with anyone other than Russavia, would likely have been procedurally declined. Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Brad and per TParis. Russavia hasn't changed a bit, from what I can see. Also, massive time-wasting dramaz follow him wherever he goes - Alison 22:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Drama has always been part and parcel of wikimedia Allie, its probably what makes this place interesting. I'm not a big fan of him on commons but over the last year or so, He has proven to be a good editor and I always believe in second chances. Some of the work he does on commons, having access to enwiki can help the wiki greatly...--Stemoc (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I believe in second chances too, sometimes third chances. How many is Russavia on? Right off the block on his last 'second chance', he paid to have a painting made of Jimbo with a penis and then edit warred to keep the picture on Misplaced Pages. What is he going to do immediately after this unblock request?--v/r - TP 23:20, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Give Jimbo a vag?...in all seriousness, the word '2nd chances' is a loosely used term, everyone on wiki atleast once was given a second chance, heck some even went on to become admins. The one good thing is that he can always be blocked again, its not like he is a 'vandal-only' account, he has over 70,000 edits to this wiki, most of which is good. If we started blocking users for having opinions, there would be no wikipedia..we have to assume good faith here. If we continue to ban experienced editors, what example are we actually setting for future editors?..--Stemoc (talk) 23:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
      • This is NOT a second chance. By my - albeit crude count - they've already been given roughly 20(!) chances. Are you saying that everyone deserves 20(!) seconds chances? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me twenty times? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
        • "we have to assume good faith here" No assumptions are needed. You do not have to assume something when you have history and facts to demonstrate something. Simply look at the user's history once unblocked, look at their willingness to abide by any restriction we place on them, look at their disregard for the community's time, and their disrespectful approach to the community. Russavia treats himself as a distinguished editor who deserves to edit here and acts as if he is the project's lone savior against prudes and censors so much so that he can't accept when the community feels he has gone too far.--v/r - TP 00:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Deli nk, Spartaz, Only in death does duty end, and many others. I would suggest instead that we limit this user to make such requests otherwise they will continue to waste the community's time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock, per others, especially Newyorkbrad. Given that Russavia was involved in epic-scale trolling on his talk page related to a copyright issue just three weeks ago, assertions that he has "done his time" seem rather premature. (And those familiar with my own history will be aware that I am far from being one of those "all copyright is stealing from humanity" wingnuts.) Deliberately creating pointless drama is a recurring theme, and one which seems – based on recent evidence – unlikely to abate. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• oppose per the extensive history of drama and bad behavior. The need to keep him on a short leash is reason enough not to reopen the cage at all. Mangoe (talk) 00:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose The only thing we know for sure is that an unblocked Russavia would end up at the center of more drama. Regarding the suggestion that a reblock could occur, the problem is that some people are expert at expanding boundaries. Is anyone going to block Russavia if he goes to Jimbo's talk and says "Hi, I'm back!". How about something more pointed? There is no way a block for gentle poking would work, so an unblock means there will be more polandballs or pointed paintings or whatever. Johnuniq (talk) 01:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Horrendous block log for a variety of offenses. I see no sincere intention to change his disruptive behavior. The very notion that he will somehow stop trolling after yet another unblock is interesting. I know of very few "reformed" trolls. None actually, but YMMV. I certainly don't believe that this editor is reformed from his penchant for trolling. He glosses over his extensive disruption as engaging in "some controversies", wanting to "continue to engage as a good faith member of our community". I do not buy that. This thread has no realistic chance of achieving a consensus to unblock. Maybe a supportive admin should just boldly unblock him and we can watch the same show all over again? Doc talk 02:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The quotes presented by Smallbones clinch the matter for me. Russavia continues to harbor a poisonous grudge which is a toxin we do not need at Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 03:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Russavia's block log tells a story of broken promises. Every single entry that is a "violation" is Russavia going against an agreement. So for anyone who suggests that Russavia is going to behave this time, what is different now from every single other time? I think that it's about time we say, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me a dozen times, shame on the community". -- Atama頭 05:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. During his absence from this project, Russavia has continued to troll and disrupt elsewhere, and I don't see any indication that this particular leopard has changed its spots (for reference, see his recent contributions to his talk page and on wikimedia-l). Lankiveil 09:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC).
• Strong Oppose in the most serious terms enough has been said. Enough has been done. No reason for return. satusuro 10:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The unblock request is ingenuous to the point of dishonesty; the mailing list comments regarding the writer of an unfavorable press piece show the same attitude toward abusive content that led to the current, well-deserved block. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 11:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - being a 'good' editor is not nearly enough of an excuse to try and justify DICKish behaviour. He's been given enough chances in the past and blown them all - now it's too late. GiantSnowman 11:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Brad and per my unpleasantly vivid memory of the Pricasso affair. I don't care if that was a year ago, I do not believe Russavia has become a reformed character in that space of time. Recent editing of his talkpage doesn't suggest it either, to my eyes. Incidentally I've removed a trolling oppose from an IP above, about what Russavia is like in real life and about how "he must be punished". The IP is requested to use their account if they want to post crap like that. Bishonen | talk 13:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC).
• Oppose per NYBrad, TParis and the mighty Bishonen.--MONGO 14:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I am not sure I can say any more than has already been said above. This is really just a not good idea. -DJSasso (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose unblocking. I see nothing that suggests that Russavia's behavior will be any different in the future than it has been in the past. His behavior did not improve after his multiple prior blocks, and it would be foolish of us to expect otherwise this time. -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:11, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I can't see any evidence that he has changed or that the problems won't continue if he's unblocked. Dougweller (talk) 14:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Djsasso. Graham87 14:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Content contribution is not a free pass to act badly. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose serious issues resulted in the ban, his life on Commons isnt as rosie as its being said he lost that communities trust in August but a person can operate a on Commons without issue even totally isolated from much of the community as it doesnt have the collaborative demands necessary to write content. Gnangarra 15:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Ana Xsosta: uncommunicative and competence issues

Ana Xsosta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a new user (about two weeks old) who has thus far caused nothing but issues with her editing. Examples include mutliple copyvio file uploads (see User talk:Ana Xsosta) and more recently changing of wikilinks. These change result in links to disambiguation pages, redlinks, etc, etc, where previously the linkwere valid, working ones. Examples include (F5 is a dab page), (Dirty Deeds is a dab page), (a leglock is not the same thing as cloverleaf), and (killswitch is an article on safety mechanisms, and nothing to do with pro wrestling). Multiple editors can attempted to communicate with this user, but she has zero user talk or talk page comments. Can she be blocked or something until she starts explaining herself please? NiciVampireHeart 15:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

All I am seeing is a whole lot of templated warnings - I would not blame them for simply ignoring them all as it is quite overwhelming. I have removed them. I'd like to note that when you are accusing new editors of being incompetent, it may not lead to a positive response (or any response at all in this case). I think a block is premature at this stage, but if they still fail to communicate then action may be taken. —Dark 15:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The templated warnings to which you refer were -- with the exception of an invitation to the teahouse, a disambiguation link notification and one on using reliable sources -- due to problems with files that the user uploaded. They have uploaded 17 so far, 16 of which have been deleted; the remaining one looks set to go the same way in seven days time. The attempts to discuss Ana's problematic linking have been done via written messages; I had a go myself today, but, in repeating problem edits, they have shown no sign that they've understood the objections to their edits, or even read them. --VeryCrocker (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I am hoping that after I have cleared the templated messages on the talk page that Ana would proceed to read the comments. If she does and stops making the edits, then I see no reason to take further action. However if she continues to edit rashly and fails to communicate, a block would be in order. —Dark 18:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Although the user is new, I'd say that 16 or 17 template warnings should be enough to show them that they're not doing something right. Template warnings aside, we've reached out to discuss these issues with Ana but never received any response. In case that isn't enough, Peripitus has written a warning out for them already. I just tagged a new photo of theirs for copyright violations a few minutes ago meaning that none of these warnings registered. They show no signs of cooperating, at what point do we take action so we don't have to cleanup more of this users' unconstructive edits?LM2000 (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I've applied a 3-days block for copyright violations. Let's hope Ana takes this time to educate herself on how Misplaced Pages works. De728631 (talk) 18:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Reasonable block. I was unaware that the user had continued to edit after I cleared the talk page. —Dark 18:40, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree, quite reasonable. Hopefully now Ana can take the time to smell the roses.LM2000 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Banc De Binary, HistorianofRecenttimes, Smallbones, Okteriel

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Smallbones continues to make claims, that I am a banned editor, and to delete my talk comments, despite warnings, a claim based solely in my interest in, and admitted slight bias in favor of, the subject of an article, that was originally created by Wiki-PR (that is, it's bias, at least compared to the editing by HistorianofRecenttimes). Historian, a happy SPA , echoed the claim that I am banned, and reverted me on that basis; and, Historian's 20 edits yesterday evince a significant lack of interest in improving Misplaced Pages. It may be relevant that, in October, while Historian was getting autoconfirmed, Historian called another editor a criminal, to his wikiface, without conviction or proof, which is about the worst BLP violation one can think of (the other editor self-identified as the principal of the subject company). My pretty thorough spot-check review of all edits by Historian did not show any exceptions to the general principle of not improving the cyclopaedia; Historian typically engages in broad OR in talk for the whole last 9 months, which has a wearing effect on other editors, who begin to believe the randomly chosen, industry-specific negative statements, made about the article subject.

I have tried several other methods of dealing with this, but today there was another deletion of my comments on Historian's talk page by Smallbones on the same rationale , without asking Historian if the comments should be deleted (Historian has not told me to stay off his talk; Smallbones claimed to do so for himself or herself, but the claim itself was the only place I saw where I could possibly have been notified of Smallbones's desire.) I welcomed both editors, and thanked Smallbones for asking whether I was a paid editor, to which I responded at length; seeing that, I have received information from the article subject that could be used to improve the article, I decided in the hostile environment to let myself be treated as a COI, "just to make it fair", and, thereby, decided not to disclose or reveal personal details further than that statement. (The logic could be inferred that, to Smallbones, because I know who Morning277 is, my denial of being him or connected with him, proves I am him.) I told Smallbones that such desire to revert project and talkpages should compel Smallbones to start a community ban proposal on me, and, if I am approved to do so by this thread, I will start such a proposal myself, if it would not be dramatic. I think, the community would recognize that, without evidence, to ban a person solely for interest and favor toward one topic, is complete chilling of speech, rather than good additional Wiki-PR bounty hunting. (Did I mention, I despise Wiki-PR, if that is not a biased statement?) Please give advice to this situation, unique to English Misplaced Pages, as to how I should interact with these editors to improve the full-protected article. I have asked admins for advice but have met silence.

I have an appointment today, because I am trying to make my vacation time, which is ending soon, only 90% Wikidrama instead of 100%. I have a moment to respond right now, and I will be adding links to the above. Okteriel (talk) 15:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC) In reply, Smallbones just repeated himself not recognizing that my putting ANI notice on his talkpage is required. Also please note significant canvassing issues by Historian. GTG, please handle in my absence. Okteriel (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at your editing history, I can see why others might be concerned. As someone who has blocked over 300 sockpuppets/meatpuppets for User:Morning277 in just one sitting, I can see several familiar patterns. That alone isn't a guarantee you are him but I can see why they are suspicious. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations, Dennis Brown! Sure. How can I distinguish myself from those familiar patterns and do the task I set out to do, improve the article? You would probably have good advice. All I can guess is that improving other parts of the cyclopaedia would give me a little credit to fix this God-forsaken (?) mess of an article. Anything else? Okteriel (talk) 15:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Your editing history indicates that your account was dormant for three years and then was reactivated. You have a COI disclosure that beats around the bush. Yes, you do seem to be a sockpuppet and yes, it was justified to delete your comments. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm a user accepting being treated as a managed COI. If you're saying my account is indistinguishable from a sleeper, how should I distinguish it? Should new editors be prohibited from improving important topics? How should my disclosure read in general terms? Isn't socking judged on edit quality and not interests alone? Okteriel (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Your account is indistinguishable from a sleeper (your term, and accurate). No, you can only distinguish it from a sleeper by going back in time and not acting like one. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello, again. I'm back now. OK, good, so I really am a WP:SLEEPER, good, because I thought it was a negative term. But, then, why can any random user or two delete my comments completely, and charge me as an agent of a company, that, it is widely known, had the means, motive, and opportunity to break undisclosed advertising law, solely because of my topic interests? Is it because I asked the company for information to complete their article with? I know some topics are more sensitive, but none are regulated beyond autoconfirmation and protection, unless, subject to, e.g., ArbCom proceedings. And, I know the Community may make judgments about all people involved in the thread, and, I only ask that they make judgments about all people involved. It's mystifying to me that Historian's behavior has not been objected to, before, not with more than templates. Okteriel (talk) 17:46, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

You had only three edits in 2011 and then reactivated the account for the purposes of COI editing. You are knowledgeable about Misplaced Pages rules and are obviously abusing multiple accounts. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:53, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, that's it? What abuse of multiple accounts means is, if I'm abusing this account, or another one that ties to it, or the combination thereof. Why is it so obvious, what is your evidence? The only evidence I can see is interests. Should I back off from the page for a little while maybe? I have other ideas for Misplaced Pages, it's just that this keeps coming up on my watchlist and notifications.

Also, I really did mean it, what should I disclose? I started to edit my disclosure, but would it help me any? Does my knowledge of another language's Misplaced Pages rules get me in trouble? I guess I do have a second account, in another language, I wasn't even thinking of that as a second account, but wouldn't that just be a legitimate alternate account? I don't mind being in the hotseat, but just don't make me guess what you want, and make sure all the editors are in the hotseat in turn. I came here to voice my suspicions about unannounced COI SPA behavior, and I sure don't want to project same myself. Okteriel (talk) 18:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Other language versions guidelines and policies are irrelevant here. Socking is not judged on quality of edits. I'm as concerned about Historian as I am about you. One word of advice - don't even hint at a real person's name, see WP:OUTING. Dougweller (talk) 18:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

As a bit more context, Banc de Binary came up on WP:COIN a few months ago as promotional, and I did some work on it. The article has one self-identified COI editor, BDBJack (talk · contribs), and a long history of SPAs and anons making edits to remove negative information (typical example ). The negative information comes from the the US SEC and CFTC (Banc de Binary operating illegally in the US), Canadian securities regulators (same thing in Canada), the Better Business Bureau, Forbes, the Financial Times, the London Daily Mail... The COI editors generally remove that negative information and prefer sources from BdB itself or generated by BdB's extensive PR and affiliate operation. Banc de Binary is actually one of 200 brands connected to a company called Softoption, in Cyprus. Those brands in turn recruit affiliates by paying them for new account signups. So there are a large number of web sites devoted to making BdB/Softoption/related binary option companies look good. Because the COI push has a lot of effort behind it, we're now at full protection. We now have extensive wikilawyering in response to that. The last time full protection was released, the article was rapidly changed to something much more favorable to BdB. This is starting to look like an effort to wear down editors trying to stop promotional editing. Full protection is a good temporary measure, but a long term solution will be tougher. Anyway, that's why we're in this mess. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

It would be appreciated if you were to differentiate between the behavior of COI-declared editors, lest it seem like an accusation of Sock-puppeting / Meat-puppeting. BDBJack (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@DougWeller, thanks. Reading the rest of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Okteriel (talk • contribs) 19:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I have a very different summary of the situation. The article relies heavily on extremely low-quality sources like court documents, press releases from the SEC, and Investopedia, but efforts to focus on reliable secondary sources have largely been thwarted. We have two COIs that are both disclosed and both mostly sticking to the Talk page, but exaggerated claims of poor COI conduct have been effective as a POV railroading tactic to protect an attack page on a marginally notable organization. You have an involved admin that seems to have negative personal opinions about the company adding article-protection to preserve an article written by an SPA who engages in personal attacks against the company and its reps and who is canvassing editors with a non neutral notification.

However, given that there is emerging consensus to keep the version of the article that is filled with junk sources, I don't think there is anything anyone can do... CorporateM (Talk) 18:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

CorporateM, didn't see that consensus yet, just a protection on the "wrong" copy after 3RR and nearly 4RR by Historian. Others, note, both CorporateM and BDBJack favor shorter versions, but I understand if you discount my or their views. Black Kite has been very involved, and I don't think he's trying to protect any particular version, but again this thread is partly about the various behaviors. Uh-oh, who do I need to notify of this discussion now? Anyway, Black Kite said, focus on resolving both behaviors and content. I think if the community has input here on behaviors and at article talk on content, we will make progress. Okteriel (talk) 19:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Could someone explain why the obvious paid-editor sock is being allowed to drive this process, please? Hipocrite (talk) 20:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. The answer appears to be "because nobody has stopped him." Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 20:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hipocrite and Figureofnine, if you have any evidence of socking beyond what's hinted at in this thread please let me know. I'm actively investigating but not coming up with anything convincing yet. I also don't have the experience with this farm that Dennis Brown has, but I've been going by what I see here for now. If you want to email me rather than posting something here or on my talk page feel free. The same goes for anyone else who has concerns. -- Atama頭 21:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I, unlike the editors in question, am not being paid for my time, so I'll decline your gracious offer to waste time picking through account histories to prove that an account that registered in 2011 to edit basically nothing, than disappeared for three fucking years, till they showed up to fake-edit their way to autoconfirmed and then jump headlong into an article plagued by paid editors to advance the cause of said paid editors, with massively advanced understanding of the structural and cultural nuances of wikipedia is obviously a sock of a paid editor. SHIT! I just spent the time I promised not to spend! Ahh well! Hipocrite (talk) 21:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, I concur at least that Okteriel isn't a newbie, though that doesn't preclude some previous editing as an IP, or that they had a previous clean account that was abandoned. I can't block someone because I have inconclusive suspicions. -- Atama頭 21:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Here's a more tangible problem. BDBJack (talk · contribs) proposed some changes to the article on the talk page, and invited discussion. Various people put up "support" or "oppose" notes. When the results were not favoring BDBJack's position, he refactored the talk page so as to close the old discussion, effectively throwing out all the old votes, and started a new vote, with his vote first. This is an attempt to manipulate the process and wear down other editors for whom this isn't their day job. John Nagle (talk) 22:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@Nagle: I'm sorry if my "reorganization for clarity" is not viewed as appropriate. However with all of the concurrent separate discussion threads, even I (as someone who is active in the discussion) am having a hard time understanding the difference between positions and unrelated chatter. This was not meant as an attempt to manipulate the process, and in fact I have been doing my best to clarify the user's positions by placing them in easily read tables, segregated between "neutral" and "biased" users. BDBJack (talk) 22:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

As an involved editor with a declared COI, it looks really bad. Ravensfire (talk) 22:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@Ravensfire: Noted. I will refrain from making such edits in the future. I would like to note though that the section in question is at least 2800px high (on my 1920 x 1080px screen). This action was meant (on my part) to help focus the discussion, not to make any unintended changes. If someone thinks that the edit that I made does not accomplish this, I will be more than happy to assist in reverting back to a previous state. BDBJack (talk) 22:45, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it's time for you and the other COI/SPA editors to bow out of the discussion on that talk page. You've made your point. You've done your work. You can report to your bosses that you gave it the old college try. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@Figureofnine: I will gladly "step out" for the time being, however I request that you hold other SPA/COI editors of the opposing bias to the same standards that you are holding me to. BDBJack (talk) 22:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I said all SPA editors regardless of inclination. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I think we've found something we can all agree on: the 3 SPAs all stay off the article and talk page forever. That's 1) Okteriel, who's getting off damn easy, but blocking or banning him in general doesn't make that big of a difference, because he's already been banned and blocked many times. 2) BDBJack, who is an admitted employee who has been blocked before for the same stuff he's doing now - major disruptions and putting in promotional material, and 3) Historyofrecenttimes, who is an SPA, but as far as I can tell has only made a few newbie mistakes. Yes, this is unfair to History, but I'll just encourage him to accept this because without the 2 others we'll be able to get a fair article. If BDBJack and History accept this (indicate below) we're on. If Okteriel doesn't accept it, I don't care, I'm sure the community will stop the disruption. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:37, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, in the last few minutes we have BDBJack trying again to introduce three sources, two of which are explicitly BdB press releases, and the third, while in a nominally unaffiliated publication, reads like one. (This is from someone who previously insisted that the financial section of the London Daily Mail isn't a reliable source.) If there is not to be a block, could we have something comparable to 1RR, limiting the usual suspects to one edit a day? Watching an article being edited by a full-time COI editor is a full time job. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 01:21, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Okteriel and BDBJack are gaming the system blatantly and need to be off that article pronto. BDBJack claims that there is another SPA that is a thorn in his shoe, but only these two are creating difficulties at present. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 02:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this is enough to tell who is arguing for discipline based on behavior, and who is arguing for discipline based on content. Figureofnine's adoption of a position is also rather sudden. The content discussion block is not due to content disagreement but to behavioral challenges with setting up harmonious discussion. In most articles the various views on a segment can be easily separated and resolved (as BDBJack is attempting). In this one it took several days even to obtain agreement as to the correct name of the subject company and of its CEO due to (government-sponsored) misconceptions, and now people can't even come out and have a friendly discussion about whether we should build from a short article or trim from a long article. Aside from BDBJack's work, there's no agreement about how to even decide the question. Please help us out, thank you. Okteriel (talk) 02:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC) The two editors I wanted input about have both been quiet now, which might mean no result arises from here, but I'd really appreciate advice as to what to do if the problem recurs. But maybe I should AGF. Thank you. Okteriel (talk) 02:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Banc De Binary proposal

• Banc De Binary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• BDBJack (talk · contribs)
• Okteriel (talk · contribs)
• HistorianofRecenttimes (talk · contribs)

Misplaced Pages's open-door procedures can be exploited when there is sufficient motivation. Rather than requiring volunteers to spend hours debating with SPAs, why not decide that this case warrants an unusual resolution? How about a topic ban for the known SPAs which I believe I have listed above. Johnuniq (talk) 03:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban for BDBJack, a BDB employee, and for Okteriel, who has in effect admitted his COI and is trying to dominate the talk page. Though HistorianofRecenttimes is an SPA and a newbie, I don't see anything serious enough for a topic ban. I'll suggest he voluntarily step aside however, just to make things easier. Given the $10,000 bounty offered by the BDB owners (apparently documented by admin @Bilby:, with Okteriel stating that he has had an email conversation with the owner about it (see User:Okteriel/Five figures), something has to be done. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: This is hardly a valid proposal, especially when modified by the idea, that Historian has done nothing serious. Historian is the one who called the CEO of BDB a criminal, in article talk, an outright BLP violation, and whose talk and editing is full of OR (do you need links?), for nearly a year. I can understand asking me and BDBJack for a topic ban, but neither of us have been accused of behavioral issues. But, in theory, if some topics are just so sensitive that a new user who edits on one side of them is automatically topic-banned, then this is no longer a forum for free discourse in the area of those topics. I am trying hard not to be a SPA. The case warrants a usual resolution, namely stubbing. Historian is the one who has prevented stubbing all along and has continued BLPGROUP violations by edit-warring as per his talk. Smallbones is the one who has been deleting my comments prematurely (which he should not do unless I were separately community-banned, so, topic ban would mean nothing to resolve what may be a personal attack on me).

I'm not sure it would even help to answer the question, now. At first, I said it would make a difference if I stood on my honor and personal privacy, to not answer. But it would hardly make any difference to certain editors if I said either "yes" or "no" now, because, e.g., Smallbones has already denied the validity of my earlier denials. I was told to fill out a SPI on Historian and Smallbones, and the fact that only one of them is very active at a time might warrant my doing so, but that would hardly help either. I came here for advice. I can hardly believe that the Community has topic-banned new compliant editors solely because the topic area is a spur of a previous problem. Okteriel (talk) 07:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Look, isn't this the kind of thing ANI deals with? Did I come here to get more of the same? Is that how WP works today? Is there an uninvolved editor who is willing to deal with the BLP, or will the BLP remain because the only people, who care about BLP, anyway, end up disqualifying themselves by getting info from the subject? The article is a WP:ATTACK and should be stubbed and rebuilt by consensus. Okteriel (talk) 08:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I just removed a BLP violation by Nagle. This is essentially identical to the BLP violation by Historian some months back. Should I include Nagle in a SPI? It makes no sense that we should go to SPI over this. Okteriel (talk) 08:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC) I really didn't want to check but forced myself to. I know this kind of analysis suffers from imagined patterns, but here it is. Lately Historian only edits on weekends. On the 8th, between the two, we have H 11:30-11:50 (5); S 12:52; then H 15:14-15:15 (2), S 15:37-18:12 (10), H 18:47-20:22 (7), S 20:32. After that we have a lot more alternation such as would be normal for unconnected editors. But it's those two long edit runs of 10 and 7 that are very interesting because they each overlap with a long break in the other account. I told you I didn't want to do it, because I might just be imagining something. Can anyone comment? Okteriel (talk) 08:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Your refactoring the talk page comment by Nagle was for no valid reason, no BLP violation whatsoever, and is one of the reasons why you have to stay off the talk page and leave it to editors not paid by the company. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support with ammendment - While I do not think that a blanket "ban" is either required or necessary, a block requiring us ( the mentioned SPA's as well as any others ) to use the Talk page to gain consensus and edit requests to implement those changes would (in my opinion) bring order back to the page. It will allow the process of editing to include the opinions of editors who have both experience and information on the subject to contribute without fear of their biases "taking over" the article. On a personal note, I am sorry that if my presence on the talk page for the article about the company that I helped to build has offended anyone. I have endeavored to the best of my ability to follow WP:COI policy, and any breach was not intended, but instead just a misunderstanding on my part. That being said, I would like to ask the following questions:

* smallbones (talk · contribs) is it possible that you too have COI due to your involvement in a financial investment scheme? ( See: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Bernard_Madoff#JPMorgan_settlement )

* historianofrecenttimes (talk · contribs) can you please elaborate on your connection to Banc De Binary, professionally and personally

] (talk) 10:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Re:the questioning of my motives by Okteriel and BDBJack above. Okteriel is accusing me of being a sockpuppet? Please check my user page for details on my long history of contributions to Misplaced Pages. Then if you want to go to SPI, be prepared for the rebound.

BDBJack mentioned something on Talk:Bernard Madoff - it's a stray footnote from somebody else of the type that shows up when you try to document something on a talk page. I can assure you that me or my family never had any investments with Madoff or related companies. I will say that when I created the Madoff article, I did have some (distant) professional knowledge of his previous non-criminal ethical challenges, the same as I have some professional knowledge of the type of operation BDB conducts. Including that material without standard RS would however be considered WP:OR here so I didn't include them in either case. I do think though that editors do not fully understand the seriousness of BDB's legal situation and what the continuing legal complaints entail (e.g. 3x return of the proceeds in the CFTC complaint). If for no other reason than the continuing legal situation, BDB representatives must be excluded from any influence on the article. As far as some other editors referring to BDB as "crooks", it is completely understandable, but not in Misplaced Pages's tradition. "Legally challenged individuals" might be better - and do note that when they were challenged legally, they appear to have waived their day in court by not showing up. If BDB wanted to sue for defamation in the US on this, they would be laughed out of court. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 12:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

@Smallbones: Thank you for clarifying the nature of the statment from the Talk:Bernard Madoff page. It makes more sense now in context. I cannot speak for Okteriel (talk · contribs)'s actions, in refactoring another user's comments, but as stated above, my "refactoring" was not meant to disturb the nature of the conversation, but instead to focus it. The previous thread had (in my opinion) gone out of control, with a thread that was over 2800 pixels long. Please note that I did not move / change any user's comments (with the exeception of Mike V, who I had received permission to do so from him), nor did I edit the tables of "positions". Please remember that I am NOT paid to edit Misplaced Pages, I am paid to do my job ( I am a programmer ). I have very little previous experience with Misplaced Pages policies, and I would appreciate if you were to treat this lapse as a "newbie" mistake (see: WP:DNB). In most cases, I've asked for others with less interest in the subject and more experience in Misplaced Pages policy (such as Huon (talk · contribs), Pinkbeast (talk · contribs), and GorillaWarfare (talk · contribs) ) for guidance and direction. In any case, were all things equal here, I would have received a warning for re-factoring the talk page, and allowed to continue contributing my opinion (without making any direct changes to the article) on the talk page. (Such as in the case of HistorianOfRecentTimes (talk · contribs)). I don't expect a level playing field especially since I am both a COI editor and an SPA, however I did not willingly make any changes that were in violation of Misplaced Pages policy knowingly, and I would appreciate guidance and assistance in continuing to do so. Blocking me from allowing to contribute my opinion (as long as I do not violate Wiki policies) would be (in my opinion) counter productive to Misplaced Pages in general, since I have considerable resources available to me in providing relevant encyclopedic information. The fact that I have chosen to attempt to debunk myths and reduce the negative bias of the article is both a "rookie" mistake, and an "ego" issue. I realize that it does not excuse my behavior, however I do not believe that it makes my point(s) any less relevant. BDBJack (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Restrict SPAs to talk page in the first instance. Tis is our recommended mechanism for conflicted parties to interact with the project. There may be valid complaints or the concerns may be querulous; if they are, then we can record the fact that they have been reviewed and rejected and then we can restrict further. Guy (Help!) 11:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, including the talk page, for Okteriel and BDBJack. The problem with Guy's suggestion is that that these two COI editors behave tendentiously on the talk page. Okteriel just refactored another editor's comment as a supposed "BLP violation," when it simply states in plain language what regulators on two continents have said about this company. BDBJack, an employee of the company, has also refactored the talk page, as described above, just a few hours ago. It's inappropriate for paid editors/employees to so completely dominate the talk page of the article of their employer. Okteriel is an undisclosed secondary account and apparent WP:SLEEPER based on his behavior and contribution history (three edits in 2011 and the rest in the past few days). Historyofrecenttimes is an SPA but doesn't hold a candle to these two in aggressiveness, tendentiousness and WP:OWN talk page behavior. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 11:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban with sam reasoning as Figureofnine, above. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support temporary topic ban I for one am glad they brought this attack page to the community's attention and at least one of the three sources provided recently are useful. But overall History has engaged in some pretty awful personal attacks, edit-warring, canvassing and POV railroading. The paid editors are pouncing on every comment everywhere, voting in discussions and filling the Talk page with too much "stuff" that causes disruption because nobody can have a discussion with walls of text from them jumping at every corner. A permanent ban would prevent them from speaking up about being treated unfairly and irresponsibly on Misplaced Pages, but a temporary (say 3 months) would allow disinterested editors to discuss and wait for their input after things have settled. I do see that the article has attracted quite a few editors now that have strong negative views towards corporations in general and PR participation in particular and by being so aggressive they are only digging themselves a bigger hole anyway. CorporateM (Talk) 15:12, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Possible Personal attack

Can someone please review , i am unsure if this post constitutes a personal attack but it reads like one to me. Amortias (T)(C) 16:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks like one to me, too Kosh Vorlon    16:54, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Racist comments are violations of WP:NPA. if you spot any in the future, feel free to revert, warn and report to WP:AIV. —Dark 16:56, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

And a second identical themed post , I've blanked one section and another editor has blanked this one. Amortias (T)(C) 16:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

After his third (which was after his second warning), I gave him 31h. DMacks (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Said IP is a very obvious sock of User:Obelixobelix, who was blocked a couple of days ago for being a vandal-only account. Has since popped up here, here, here, and here. At least, those are the ones I am aware of. Some of them have been blocked, the others are only a matter of time. Rather obvious ducks; they are all making the same edits as the master to multiple paegs, and using identical abusive language. Unfortunately they seem to have access to very many IPs, and a range block will not sort them out. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Continuing personal attacks on an article about personal attacks is a definite WP:SHOT Amortias (T)(C) 18:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

And after reading abuot the WP:SOCK issue I smell a duck Amortias (T)(C) 18:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

This edit has to be struck

This is the edit and it violates several policies and guidelines. The content added to the article is fine but I would revert it as it translates to "Crystal Myers Japan", but it's the user "outing" and legal statement made in the edit summary that are the problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• RevDel'ed, warned, reported to OS, and oversighted. Normally, it is much better to report direct to oversight WP:OS, as too many eyes are here at ANI. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor has subsequently requested that be RevDel'ed as well, and the subsequent revert of that content. While we've got the big eraser out, is probably a good candidate as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: I've passed the edits on to the oversight team. Please, please, please send any similar edits to the oversight team directly via this this page. It ensures that it's handled as privately as possible. Thanks! Mike V • Talk 00:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I will try to remember. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

•  Question: I see he has had three more edits oversighted after he was given a clear final warning. I don't have access to oversight, and no warning was given afterwards. Can an oversighter review this for a possible block? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Shashini12311 redux

Shashini12311 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

First reported here. Given final warning for blatantly violating WP:BLPPRIMARY here by me. Re-inserted same material today . Seems to be here for only one thing. --NeilN 17:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked 72 hours for a host of violations. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you. --NeilN 20:02, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Gbold1

Gbold1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

He is obviously continuing to vandalize articles, but in a lesser extent, removing or changing content of articles without providing reliable sources. This one is an example. The Ranoclue (talk) 00:12, 10 June 2014 (UTC) -- last edited by The Ranoclue (talk) 00:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC) (reason: capitalization)

User:Blackhawks88wwe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blackhawks88wwe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user, after multiple reverts, continues to vandalize articles. For instance, here (which has been made a couple of times) and here. APerson (talk!) 03:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

These may in fact be inept but good faith edits, especially the second one, since according to this, "Follow the Buzzards" is a song associated with the Wyatt family. —Anne Delong (talk) 04:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

User also made this edit, which was clearly not blatant vandalism. It was reverted by ClueBot NG for some reason, though. I'm not sure if the PPV has a tagline, but if that was not correct, it still looks like it was made in somewhat good-faith. These cases are tricky sometimes. Try to work with the editor, and if he/she doesn't cooperate, then you have your answer about the type of user he/she is and further action can be taken on the matter. United States Man (talk) 04:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

It actually seems he was a vandal; I failed to look at the contribs page the first time. He even vandalized this section before Anne Delong's comment. User was blocked indefintely by Discospinster. United States Man (talk) 06:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Genre warring & disruptive editing by User:Lukejordan02

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Lukejordan02 has been genre warring on over twenty albums on Misplaced Pages. When I reverted his edits and urged him to discuss his actions , he started reverting me on every single page by using insults and profanity. For example, he said it's "pathetic and annoying" to revert the vandalism he has made. When warned him at his talk page about his unconstructive actions, he removed them by claiming "to remove shit" and that I should "go fuck myself". Furthermore, he spents 99% of his time deleting content at band's discographies (by looking at his user contributions) and edit warring with everyone that disagrees with him.--Retrohead (talk) 08:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This user is spending all his time to try and get me blocked, we were blocked due to edit warring we are now bon been unblocked but this editor thinks it is ok to carry on edit warring and reverted multiple changes, furthermore he falsified a claim against me at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring claiming an edit war when it was removing vandalism this is about the 3rd or 4th attempt to get me blocked this user is using all for the same cases and if they weren't excepted before what makes them ok now, there must be a limit to all these claims this user is doing, I asked for him to be invicta gated on the other page but nothing has been done. He spends nearly all his time on wiki simply reverted my edits no matter what and is now trying to rally people against me such as his message at mrmoustache, further more he has called me names before such as troll and an uneducated person, this needs to stop now. Lukejordan02 (talk) 08:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The "editor" spends all his time changing genres, reverting users who disagree with him, calling them names, and deleting content. I coincidentally saw him when he tried to ruin a list I brought to FA, and then I saw what he has been doing since April.--Retrohead (talk) 08:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Problem with User:AHLM13

Hi. I believe we have a problem with User:AHLM13, who appears to have decided to persistently remove contributions from unregistered/IP editors without regard for their content or usefulness. I first noticed this earlier this morning with one article, and on checking the user's contributions realised that this was a consistent pattern of behaviour. I therefore left this comment on the user's talk page: label. At this stage I had some concerns, but noticed that this editor has only recently registered, so felt that expressing a concern would probably be enough to address the problem, and decided not to take the issue any further at that time.

Having left a message for this user, I was surprised to discover that a couple of hours later the user had (a) immediately deleted my comment from their talk page without trying to contact anyone to address the concerns raised, and (b) continued to delete useful content from articles where this content has been contributed by unregistered/anonymous IP editors. For example, the editor has recently removed useful content from Uhuru Kenyatta, Sand goanna, and Naracoorte, South Australia, and about 50 others. This seems to me to be disruptive behaviour. I've brought the matter to this noticeboard, rather than go through a slower discussion process with the editor in question, because the editor seems to be following a strategy of making a large number of unhelpful edits very quickly. It seemed sensible to escalate this promptly.

I notice that this editor signed up on 27 May 2014. I was struck by how quickly the editor started making edits to a large number of pages, and how they had set up a nicely laid out user page within 45 minutes, and started using Twinkle with great efficiency within a couple of weeks of signing up. (For comparison, it took me years to discover that Twinkle existed, and my user page has yet to reach tidiness!) I suspect that this editor is therefore an experienced editor under another name. A particular concern is that this indiscriminate removal of contributions from unregistered/anonymous editors may be due to some particular stance, and that this user has unilaterally decided to implement an "all editors must be registered" policy, or some variant thereof. Whatever the reason, though, this editor seems to be running a one-person crusade.

I'd be very grateful if an administrator or two could take a look into this, and take whatever action is deemed appropriate. Thank you. RomanSpa (talk) 11:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

It is not my problem if you took years to discover this Twinkle. I do not know what you want to do. AHLM13 ✉ 11:33, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Clear abuse of Twinkle and disruptive editing, reverting clearly good-faith edits without a proper edit summary , --NeilN 11:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This isn't necessarily an issue with you having discovered Twinkle (though it being an automated tool works in as a way to quickly do many edits). The concern expressed is that you are wholesale reverting several IP edits which have been made in good faith without explaining why. This is a misuse of an automated tool—it's just as bad as using WP:Rollback for the same thing. - Purplewowies (talk) 12:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• There is a serious problem. In addition to the three "removed useful content" diffs above, I did a quick check of some recent activity:
  • diff revert a September 2012 comment claiming there is a problem with an image
  • diff revert August 2013 edit which simplified a link
  • diff revert September 2013 edit which simplified a link and added some valid italics
  • diff revert two December 2013 unexplained edits—perhaps ok, hard to know
  • diff revert two good March 2014 edits
  • diff revert removal of around bare URLs in refs—revert is not an improvement
• None of the above are big content problems, but biting IPs is a big problem, and the pointless nature of some of the above reverts is a concern. I think mentoring would be a minimum requirement. It is unacceptable to rapidly revert any edits with no explanation unless the edits are clear vandalism. Johnuniq (talk) 12:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked for a week. IP-biting is not remotely acceptable, and the user has been impervious to warnings and advice. As John and Neil have showed, they're reverting edits that are not merely good-faith but good. And just see how lightning fast they're editing, obviously not allowing any time to apply any consideration to the edits themselves before reverting them. That does look like a crusade, and it needs to be stopped now. Mentoring can be considered at more leisure, if the user shows any interest in that. Thank you for sounding the alarm, RomanSpa. Bishonen | talk 13:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC).

You're welcome, and thank you all for your swift response. RomanSpa (talk) 14:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm working my way through their edits from the most recent backwards, reverting the unproductive ones. If someone wants to work backwards, it would be appreciated. --NeilN 13:21, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to start with this editor's earliest stuff, and work forward. For the first week or two I think things were broadly unproblematic, so this should be manageable. RomanSpa (talk) 14:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

There are many edits reverting in content like this. Opinions from editors please? Leave in or remove again? --NeilN 14:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

In the diff shown, the IP removed unreferenced text, but with no edit summary. If I ha that page watchlisted, I would have reverted the deletion with an edit summary of "undo unexplained deletion". If I had time, I would have left the level-1 deletion template on the IP's talk page. I'd leave the text in. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Freaking mess. Some reverts enforce WP:MOS, others break the same rule. Some edits revert vandalism, others put it back in. I've gotten to Walther Stampfli. Weirdest article so far: 10-minute haircut. --NeilN 15:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

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