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Revision as of 23:16, 29 June 2006

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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Protection and introduction of article

This article is protected since May 30 because of disputes on its introduction. Please refer to /Archive 9 and /Intro_changes_proposal for more information. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected now. -- ChrisO 07:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Congradulations

Finally the good editors of Misplaced Pages came to their senses. I remember a time when Kosovo was a part of the FRY even though it was 2005. I'm glad that it really does say that it is part of Serbia. Peace. --Косово 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been no agreement whatsoever. The dispute continues!Ferick 00:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been agreement. If you continue revert warring, POV-pushing and inserting original research, action will be taken against you. I suggest that you accept that a majority consensus has been reached and move on from there. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with this version, at all. ilir_pz 11:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

We all know why Ilir, give it a rest. Litany 11:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not think I can bear it. Thanks for the piece of advice. ilir_pz 11:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Basic rules of engagement

I think it might be worth reminding people of the basic rules of Misplaced Pages. A lot of the arguments over the previous version of this article were, I think, largely due to these policies not being followed. I've rewritten the article to make it strictly wikipolicy-compliant, and I intend to ensure that those policies are followed on this article:

• Don't add partisan commentary, and ensure that your contributions are written in a neutral tone. We're here to write an encyclopedic article, not a partisan screed. (WP:NPOV).

• Any additions must be sourced, cited and verifiable. (WP:CITE, WP:V).

• Any sources must be reliable. Newspaper reports, government documents, books and reports from well-known international organisations are generally regarded as good sources. Commentary on ersonal websites or the personal views of individual editors are not. (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR.

If we follow these policies we should be OK. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the version that I just inserted, and is being blindly reverted by Litany does comply with all the points above. The source I provided can't be more verifiable, reliable, and the most important document. I will have to revert back to that, as it is more legitimate than any newspaper claim that some people like to cite here. Regards, ilir_pz 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What other encyclopedias say

For the record, I think it's worth mentioning how other reputable and reliable encyclopedias describe Kosovo's status:

Encyclopedia Britannica

Kosovo, region within the republic of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic...

Britannica Student

The province of Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia), a country in the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe.

Britannica Junior

The province of Kosovo lies within the republic of Serbia, in eastern Europe.

The Oxford Dictionary of English

Kosovo, an autonomous province of Serbia ...

The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable

An autonomous province of Serbia bordering on Albania ...

Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names

A geographic, and predominantly Albanian-populated, region under Serbian sovereignty—but, in effect, a European-run colony or protectorate under UN administration since mid-1999 ...

World Encyclopedia

Autonomous province in s Serbia ...

The Macmillan Encyclopedia

An autonomous province of S Serbia, in the Union of Serbia and Montenegro.

The Crystal Reference Encyclopedia

Province of S Serbia...

The Columbia Encyclopedia

Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet ... S Serbia and Montenegro, in Serbia.

The Hutchinson Encyclopedia

Autonomous region 1945-1990 of southern Serbia ...

In short, there isn't a single reference source that I can find that describes Kosovo as anything other than a province in Serbia. This emphasizes just how far outside the mainstream Ilir pz and Ferick's position is. -- ChrisO 12:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Eh - that's what I've been trying to say for a long time... Please skim the Archives. The same thing (...Province of Serbia...) is stated by the CIA World Factbook, as well as by several sites dedicated to the "Countries of the World", Brockhaus Encyclopedia, LaRousse, etc. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

And all these sources are more reliable than Kosovo's Constitutional Framework adopted by the UN administration, and approved by UN's Security council???? Am I saying something wrong, or the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo is the most important law, and especially over any Encyclopedias that you have cited here? I do not think my mainstream is far from the truth, yours is, definitely, because it ignores this main document. Greetz, ilir_pz 13:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a collection of legal documents and resources. Encyclopedias contain interpretations of laws and documents. If all big news stations, international organisations and encyclopedias interprete the Constitutional Framework as Kosovo being a province of Serbia, why should we disagree? That would come close to original research, which is not allowed (Misplaced Pages:NOR). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

How can you be allowed to misinterprete a Constitution just like that then? NOWHERE does this UN approved document state what some people are speculating above? I am all against speculation, dear Wikipedians. Should anyone have a political reason to push for that, I am the last person who cares about that pushy way of misinterpreting a law. Regards, ilir_pz 14:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, am I correct that it is your opinion that all encyclopedias above and in addition the BBC, CNN, the IMF, the UN and the EU all misinterprete the Constitutional Framework? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Interpreting" a document is original research. We go by what our cited, verifiable and reputable sources tell us. Our sources tell us, unanimously, that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. Therefore we also say that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. It's as simple as that. -- ChrisO 19:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Official languages

It is not completely clear to me what the official languages of Kosovo are. Until the 24th of May, the article named only Albanian and Serbian. That day, Turkish was added and today even English . This link names only Albanian and Serbian, so that is what I changed it to. Maybe somebody can clarify? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think only Albanian and Serbian is the official languages in Kosovo. But Turkish and perhaps even Romany for Roma people is official in some municipalities or it is semi-official? Albanian is of course official due to as many as 90% of the population speak Albanian, and Serbian (or Serbocroatian or something simulare)is the language for Serbs, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Janjevci and Goranis.

According to the link "English is the official language of UNMIK. The texts of legislation created in Kosovo since the beginning of the UNMIK administration exist in English, Albanian and Serbian." So I wouldent say that English is an official language of Kosovo since it is only offical for UNMIK. Litany 15:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure either. I am just following my own guideline on reverting any edits which have not been discussed (by new users and/or sockpuppets). As far as I know, Turkish used to be official but not sure what the situation is after 1999. Regards, E Asterion 16:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The addition of turkish was done from an anonymous account, the addition of english was not very seriously I think. Until somebody shows otherwise, we will leave it at Albanian and Serbian. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Turkish was an official language in Kosovo until UNMIK administration was installed. Not sure about the official languages as of now. Will check that again. Not sure that Serbian will be an official language either, they are a minority of less than 6%, and in Macedonia Albanians do not get that even though they are around 20%, but can use it only in the cities where it is official. We'll see how that works. ilir_pz 13:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the USAID: "Because Kosovo is not a country, it does not have an official flag—residents often use that of Albania—or an official language. English is used for official business, and all traffic signs are in both Albanian and Serbian." Official documents are copied in local languages, but de jure none of them are official. TSO1D 14:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Can ayone find another official source that contradicts this one? TSO1D 14:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The website of EU in Kosovo clearly states that "The official languages in Kosovo are Albanian and Serbian. The majority of the population speaks Albanian. Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are spoken by minorities. A very large number of people also speak English, German and other European languages. English is the official language of UNMIK. The texts of legislation created in Kosovo since the beginning of the UNMIK administration exist in English, Albanian and Serbian." Regards, ilir_pz 14:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I also saw this page, so I agree that for now the two languages can be kept as official. This matter is really bizarre though. I cannot understand how various official sources can contradict each other on this point. This should not be a subjective matter, either the languages have been declared official or not. TSO1D 15:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the so-called Constitutional Framework, paragraph 9.3.17: Meetings of the Government and its bodies shall be conducted in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. All official documents of the Government shall be printed in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. So I suppose its Albanian and Serbian. According to this website: , Turkish was considered but not approved as an official language. And English is the official language of UNMIK. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok that makes sense. TSO1D 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not fair

User:Ferick keeps removing the sentence that describes the Pro-Serbian site listed at the bottom of the page as "with the aim of reminding the foreign public once more of the gravity of situation of human rights facing Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.", which is simply what the site is doing.

May I remind everyone that every single Pro-Albanian link has an explination of what it's about and it is not fair to let an Albanian, Ferick, delete sentences that describe Pro-Serbian sites, especially when they are harmless like this one. I rather think the descriptions of the Pro-Albanian links are very inflamatory, like "Save Kosova", and everyone knows it's Kosovo in English, and not Kosova which is in Albanian (Imagine if someone wrote Kosovo in Serbian, imagine what the Albanian users would do...), or maybe "American Council for Kosovo, increasing the awareness of the recognition of Kosovo's independence in the American society.", which suggests that Kosovo is already independent and what is left is for it to be recognized, and that is also inflamatory. But I'll stop here, because I don't care much about how the Pro-Albanian links are described, and I would appreciate the same amount of respect when regarding the Pro-Serbian links. Please don't erase descriptions. --serbiana - talk 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, without discussing like I have, Ferick erased the sentence describing the Pro-Serbian link, he even wrote "Staying on gurad against Serb vandalism.", which I find extremely nationalistic, considering that the sentence I added is clearly harmless. I will not revert, but rather allow others to give opinion, and I ask Ferick to explain his actions. --serbiana - talk 04:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bormalagurski, first of all I must say I appreciate it a lot that you came here to discuss this matter. Indeed a lot links contain descriptions, but all of these are neutral descriptions. When you say remininding of the gravity of the human right... you also make a statement there, rather than give a neutral description. I added a more neutral description to the website link, namely focusses on the human rights situation of Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.. I hope that is ok with both of you. Regards, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the Albanian links, Save Kosova is the name of the website, not a description, Free Kosovo is a translation of the name of a website and I agreed with you on the description of the American Counsil on Kosovo, so I also changed that one. The rest is harmless in my view. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't be devising our own descriptions of external websites - if you put in a link to google.com would you call it "Really big search engine"? The convention is to use the website's own name for itself, in this case "Serbian Government for Kosovo and Metohija" (as appears in the title bar of the English version). -- ChrisO 07:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I must say that I am very surprised by this comment. A lot of wikipedia articles contain descriptions of the websites under External Links, see for example USA. Also, why did you then remove only that one description, an not all descriptions in that section? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I felt that the website's self-description was enough - it's the official Serbian government website on Kosovo, just as it says in the description. As for the others, I'm very pushed for time right now! I'll go through them later today. -- ChrisO 08:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I do understand that you are busy, selectively removing a description of a Serbian site, but not of the Albanian sites is potentially very inflammatory here. I suggest we go through all of them on the talk page here and then change them all at once. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW: The convention is not to use only the name of the website. The Misplaced Pages Manual of style says this on External links: External links should summarize the website's contents, and indicate why the website is relevant to the article. (See:WP:SG#External links). So I am not in favor of simply removing all descriptions. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I support Cpt. Morgan and his views. --serbiana - talk 18:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What Ilir and Ferick fail to see...

Is that Misplaced Pages is not truth, but verifiability. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting you say verifiability. A lot of Serbs have verified that they were the victims of 1999 wars. If you ask, they will produce a ton load of documents proving that they were the victims. It's also interesting to note that the Serb regime went out of its way to hide crimes, believing, I guess, that if the crimes were not verified, they didn't occur. Very interesting theory you have....Ferick 21:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me ask you this, Ferick. Why would Serbia do anything about Kosovo if there was no reason to do so? Did they just not like Albanians, or did the Albanians organize a separatist organization bent on achieving secession from Serbia? Well, if you look at other countries that have separatist movements, you'll see that the government of the country at question would go to extreme lengths to stabilize the situation and stop the constant terrorist attacks. Thousands of Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo, you can't fake the documentation, it's there, and the Serb population of Kosovo confirms it. I think that you have to understand that us a crime is not verified, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you can't present it as a fact. Thats all. For example, Serbs were ethically cleansed from Kosovo, thats a fact. Serb forces cracked down on the KLA, a CIA-confirmed terrorist organization, thats a fact. Serb forces wanted to rid Kosovo of all Albanians? Well, maybe, who knows, but untill you find a signed document where President Milosevic wrote "kill 'em all", you can't really claim anything. But then you have Albanian guerilla leaders saying that Kosovo is for the Albanians, and similar things, so their aim is obvious. Belgrade only wanted Kosovo not to separate. Thats a fact. Ethnic cleansing organized from Belgrade is not. --serbiana - talk 22:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Woaaaa………you are wrong on every sentence. Literally every sentence has inaccurate information. Congrads on that achievement!

You ask: why would Serbia do anything about Kosovo if there was no reason to do so? Nobody ever said Serbia did things without a reason. Serbia had her reasons pretty well laid out: a total and complete elimination of any Albanian traces in Kosovo. When you come to thing about it, it wasn’t a stupid reason after all. They consider Kosovo the heart of their nation, yet the majority of people living there were not Serbs. So in way Kosovo was sticking out and destroying the Serbian dream and myth. The only way to solve the problem was killing and expelling. Various Serbian governments had tried every other way to subdue Kosovo Albanian for decades, so killing and expelling them was the last and only hope. You know what happen after that………..

I appreciate you understanding that Kosovo is the heart of Serbia. This is a good step, but you're still wrong on most of your points. Albanian separatism started long before Milosevic. In 1981. riots in Kosovo caused instability in the region and the stench of secessionism left it's toll on Yugoslavia. For 8 years after that, Serbs did nothing, they had to be quiet about the Albanian-organized protests, secessionism and even terrorism. It is the Albanians who started the ethnic conflict by asking for independence of an autonomous province, something which was illegal in every way, according to international law. The Albanians knew what Kosovo meant to Serbs, so they provoked, provoked and provoked. They didn't vote, pretending to be separate from Serbia, the police were biased toward Albanian crimes against Serbs, and the list goes on. Then, Milosevic took away it's autonomy, to preserve the peace. Serbian army forces targeted terrorists' homes, and in such operations, there were civilian deaths too. Also, I'd like to remind you how Albanians appeared in Kosovo in SFRY in the first place - Albania, supported by Fascist Italy, ethnically cleansed Kosovo of Serbs and settled Albanians in the province. Tito, however, decided not to kick the Albanians out of Kosovo after WWII, and even gave therm self-rule. But that was not enough for Albanians, they wanted an ethnically pure Kosovo.

Serbia tried to subdue Albanians way before the KLA ever came into being, so you are wrong on this one as well. And by the way, I haven’t seen any other instance in a world since WWII when a country has tried using physical elimination of entire people (by either killing or expelling them) as a political tool.

This is a lie. There is no way that Serbia could've tried to subdue Albanians before 1990 (around when the KLA was formed), because the police force was Albanian, and Serbia couldn't send the Yugoslav Army to Kosovo. Not a single Albanian was ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by Serb forces. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thousands of Serbs were ethnically cleansed? How about this: Million Albanians were ethnically cleansed? How does that sound to you, equal deeds? There is no doubt that some Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo, but about 60-80% of them left Kosovo way before anybody could even tell them to leave. They left together with Serb forces, you know. I say this because I was there and I saw them. Did they have good reason to leave? You bet! They were smart enough to realize that people are going to seek revenge from them. By the way, they are all welcomed back anytime to live in their properties.

As I've said, more Albanians fled Kosovo in 1999, during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, then 1990-1999, when Serbia was comitting the alleged "ethnic cleansing". When Serb forces cracked down on the terrorist KLA, Albanians fled to Albania, because their dream of a Greater Albania was crumbling in front of their eyes. The "million" digit is a fairy tale, it's just funny. Now, your claims of Serbs being welcome in Kosovo is just an arrogant lie, and everyday stoning of busses with Serbs in them, and a murder there and then prove my claim. Also, the Unrest in 2004., the burning of 15th Century Orthodox Monasteries and entire Serbian communities show how extremist Albanians in Kosovo can be. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

KLA, a CIA-confirmed terrorist organization? Baloney (another words, you are factually wrong….again?)

CIA has confirmed that the KLA is a terrorist organization and it is. Go to the CIA website. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Serb forces wanted to rid Kosovo of all Albanians? I think for most of the world the camps in Albania and Macedonia were enough evidence. NATO didn’t intervene just for the heck of it, did they? But I digress, you are right we will never see a piece of paper signed by Milosevic showing that he ordered the total elimination of Albanians. So you won on this one…………. Well, in a way. Here is something new to you: Actions speak more than words!

NATO intervened in 1999. not to help Kosovo become independent, but to get rid of their old weapons and try out their stealth technology. They also wanted troops in the Balkans to control the region. I think we all know how much we can trust the US's motives (Ahm, Iraq.. WMD?), and I'm sure the US didn't do this for the "poor Albanians", because Kosovo would be independent today if that were so (the US always gets what it wants). Did you know that "Actions speak more than words!" was a Nazi slogan? Here's something new to you. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Albanian guerilla leaders saying that Kosovo is only for the Albanians? Baloney (Another made up fact, incidentally not verifiable).

You speak Albanian, you should know. You probably listened (and worship) people like Hashim Thachi and similar terrorists, and I'm surprised you didn't hear the part about Kosovo being for the Albanians, ONLY for the Albanians. Or maybe you didn't want to hear that. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing organized from Belgrade is not a fact? Insane and very much false statement! Go to www.google.com and type ethic cleansing (don’t even type Kosovo or Serbia) and see for yourself.

Well, I have a website, and I'm sure Albanians have even more websites, and I'm also sure there are international websites that attach Albanian writings on them. So... I could write that Kosovo is a part of China, and then we would have to write "some claim Kosovo is a part of China..." :-) --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Facts are out there, around the corner, in front of you. They are calling your name. Help yourself and look at them, even once, and truth shall set you free! Sincerely yours, Ferick.

Ferick 03:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I say the same to you. Sincerely yours, --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ohh boy, you have a very strange view of the world. How do you manage to live in the real world where you have to accept things as they are? Just curious…….Ferick 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

People, just a reminder that talk pages are there to discuss the Misplaced Pages articles, they are not a chatboard to discuss political opinions. See Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, I was just disproving Ferick's lies, but I will stop now. He actually disproves himself if you read his messages carefully :-) --serbiana - talk 21:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You still didn’t answer me: how do you manage to reconcile you fantasy world with the real one? Perhaps we can learn SOMETHING from you…………Ferick 23:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Saying Milosevic's regime was repressive is a fact not an opinion

Most of the world has, by now, agreed that Milosevic's regime was repressive. So the word repressive is not a matter of personal opinion but a descriptive word that accurately describes a regime. I am surprised that, of all things out there, you have taken upon yourself to defend a Repressive Regime. Salon – Rage against the regime US Congress The Financial Times-Milosevic turns screw on news US Office in Pristina- Kosovo,Irag and the values we share

Contrary to your believe, the word repressive has been used by just about every media when describing Milosovics administration. It may pain you to learn this, but it’s a matter of fact not an opinion.Ferick 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you make yourself acquainted with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. It does not matter whether prominent individuals and establishments called the police force repressive, you still cannot simply use that adjective directly as fact, as there are others who disagree with it. For instance, you can say the police force which has been described as repressive by .., ..., and ...., but you cannot simply state that the police force is repressive. TSO1D 21:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can...and I just did. You can open your own website if you like to defend repressive regimes. And by the way, it’s not up to you to interpret what is NPOV and what is not.Ferick 21:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Official policy states: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves." I don't see how you can interpret this in any other way. The idea that the Serbian police force was repressive is just that an opinion, no matter how firmly you or even the majority of people might believe it. TSO1D 21:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

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