Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:27, 17 June 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Homeopathy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65Auto-archiving period: 30 days

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows: Neutral point of view as applied to science: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Important notice: Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ below, which represents the consensus of editors here. Please remember that this page is only for discussing Misplaced Pages's encyclopedia article about Homeopathy.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ below, which represents the consensus of editors here. Please remember that this page is only for discussing Misplaced Pages's encyclopedia article about Homeopathy. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.) A1: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy must be included in the article. The articles on Misplaced Pages include information from all significant points of view. This is summarized in the policy pages which can be accessed from the Neutral point of view policy. This article strives to conform to Misplaced Pages policies, which dictate that a substantial fraction of articles in fringe areas be devoted to mainstream views of those topics. Q2: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the lead? (Yes.) A2: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy belongs in the lead section. The lead must contain a summary of all the material in the article, including the critical material. This is described further in the Lead section guideline. Q3: Is the negative material in the article NPOV? (Yes.) A3: Yes. Including negative material is part of achieving a neutral article. A neutral point of view does not necessarily equate to a sympathetic point of view. Neutrality is achieved by including all points of view – both positive and negative – in rough proportion to their prominence. Q4: Does Misplaced Pages consider homeopathy a fringe theory? (Yes.) A4: Yes. Homeopathy is described as a fringe medical system in sources reliable to make the distinction. This is defined by the Fringe theories guideline, which explains: We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory. References Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136. Q5: Should studies that show that homeopathy does not work go into the article? (Yes.) A5: Yes. Studies that show that homeopathy does not work are part of a full treatment of the topic and should go into the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs. Non-experts have suggested that all the studies that show homeopathy does not work are faulty studies and are biased, but this has not been borne out by the mainstream scientific community. Q6: Should another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" be created? (No.) A6: No. Another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" should not be created. This is called a "POV fork" and is discouraged. Q7: Should alleged proof that homeopathy works be included in the article? (No.) A7: No. Alleged proof that homeopathy works should not be included in the article. That is because no such proof has come from reliable sources. If you have found a reliable source, such as an academic study, that you think should be included, you can propose it for inclusion on the article’s talk page. Note that we do not have room for all material, both positive and negative. We try to sample some of each and report them according to their prominence. Note also that it is not the job of Misplaced Pages to convince those people who do not believe homeopathy works, nor to dissuade those who believe that it does work, but to accurately describe how many believe and how many do not believe and why. Q8: Should all references to material critical of homeopathy be put in a single section in the article? (No.) A8: No. Sources critical of homeopathy should be integrated normally in the course of presenting the topic and its reception, not shunted into a single criticism section. Such segregation is generally frowned upon as poor writing style on Misplaced Pages. Q9: Should the article mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism? (No.) A9: No. The article should not mention that homeopathy might work by some as-yet undiscovered mechanism. Misplaced Pages is not a place for original research or speculation. Q10: Is the article with its negative material biased? (No.) A10: No. The article with its negative material is not biased. The article must include both positive and negative views according to the policies of Misplaced Pages. Q11: Should the article characterize homeopathy as a blatant fraud and quackery? (No.) A11: No. Inflammatory language does not serve the purpose of an encyclopedia; it should only be done if essential to explain a specific point of view and must be supported from a reliable source. Misplaced Pages articles must be neutral and reflect information found in reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and not a consumer guide, so while scientific sources commonly characterise homeopathy as nonsense, fraud, pseudoscience and quackery - and the article should (and does) report this consensus - ultimately the reader should be allowed to draw his/her own conclusions.

Homeopathy was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed October 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 13, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 19, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed February 9, 2008 Peer review Reviewed March 2, 2009 Peer review Reviewed April 4, 2009 Featured article candidate Not promoted November 2, 2012 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Homeopathy (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeopathy, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeopathyWikipedia:WikiProject HomeopathyTemplate:WikiProject HomeopathyHomeopathy Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Medicine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Citizendium Porting (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Citizendium Porting, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Citizendium PortingWikipedia:WikiProject Citizendium PortingTemplate:WikiProject Citizendium PortingCitizendium Porting

Template:Vital article

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article, in a manner that does not comply with Misplaced Pages's policies. Editors are encouraged to use neutral mechanisms for requesting outside input (e.g. a "request for comment", a third opinion or other noticeboard post, or neutral criteria: "pinging all editors who have edited this page in the last 48 hours"). If someone has asked you to provide your opinion here, examine the arguments, not the editors who have made them. Reminder: disputes are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present.

Pseodoscience

The article calls homeopathy a pseudoscience, but nowhere in wikipedia's guidelines does this seem to be allowed. Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories There is no scientific consensus that homeopathy is pseudoscience, especially in Europe, therefore, it is classified as a questionable science. Klocek (talk) 12:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not explicitly stated, in the Misplaced Pages guidelines that anything should be called anything. The thing is that there is nothing in the guidelines that says it shouldn't be - and anything that's not forbidden is OK. What we ARE required to do is to represent the world from a mainstream scientific perspective and to provide references for what we say.

The mainstream scientific view is that Homeopathy is a pseudoscience...and we have references to prove that. So there is no reason we shouldn't say so. More importantly, the WP:FRINGE guidelines make it clear that it would be a breach of the neutral position to allow the homeopathists to dominate the content of the article with their bogus (according to mainstream science - and therefore according to Misplaced Pages) position.

Aside from all of that - you may ask why poor old homeopathy is being called a pseudoscience in the first place? Some see this word as some kind of an insult. It's not, it's a straightforward classification of an idea or discipline. The definition of the word pseudoscience given in most dictionaries agrees with the one provided by Wiktionary, which I'll quote for you:

Any body of knowledge purported to be scientific or supported by science but which fails to comply with the scientific method.

Homeopathy undoubtedly purports to be scientific - it makes MANY claims to be able to produce certain results from certain practices based on scientific-sounding descriptions of some very odd properties of water.

The deciding factor is therefore whether or not homeopathy follows "The Scientific Method".

I suggest you read at least the introduction to our Scientific method article...but here is a summary of what this means:

Basically, the scientific method requires that you form an idea which you are not yet certain about. We call that a "hypothesis". A good hypothesis has to explain everything that we already know about the topic and then makes certain testable predictions about the universe. The next step is that you do some experiments to see if those predictions turn out to be true - and if they do, your hypothesis is a better explanation for how the universe works than the one we already have. So you write a paper describing your new hypothesis, what predictions you made, what experiments you did, what results you got and how you interpret those results to back up your hypothesis. This paper is then peer-reviewed for obvious mistakes and deceptions and to be sure that nobody else already showed it was true. That's by a bunch of other people who work in that field ("your peers") - and if it passes muster, it'll be published in some journal or other. If the hypothesis is reasonably compelling, other scientists will attempt to repeat your experiments to see if what you did really works as you claim and they may try to come up with alternative explanations for what you observed. They write more papers - perhaps devise more experiments to test your claims. Eventually, if enough of the other people who test this agree that your hypothesis is the best explanation for the experimental results, your hypothesis becomes accepted into the mainstream as a "theory". (Which is what used to be called a "law").

So - the burning question here is: Do homeopathists do this? The answer is a blindingly clear "NO!" - they most certainly do not. What they did is to come up with two basic hypotheses:

1. Diluting something until there is none left 'imprints' the water in some permanent or at least long-lived fashion.
2. Drinking imprinted water affects your health in some manner - possibly the reverse of the harm that would be caused by ingesting the original substance.

What experiments have been done to follow up on (1)? The answer is - none whatever. Not one single documented example of a homeopathist systematically testing whether water takes on this "imprint" has ever been performed! Where are the double-blind studies of (2)? Where is the statistical analysis of how many people were cured of their colds by very diluted raw duck liver?

That is why we call homeopathy a "pseudoscience" - it makes scientific claims - but never does the hard work to test them...instead they skip the basic science, skip the human trials and go straight to selling the stuff in little bottles in WalMart.

Misplaced Pages says that homeopathy is a pseudoscience because that is precisely, and undeniably what it is. This is the mainstream view of scientists - and it clearly follows the definition of the word and what is going on in the world of homeopathy.

We don't say that religions are pseudosciences because they tell people to take their wild and crazy claims on faith - and (with some exceptions) tend not to make scientific predictions or wrap themselves in the mantle of science. We don't say that quantum physics is pseudoscience because although quantum physicists make scientific claims, they really do follow the scientific method.

SteveBaker (talk) 12:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Klocek (talk · contribs) - there is a scientific consensus that homoeopathy is pseudoscience, including "in Europe". Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus that homeopathy is pseudoscience --24.107.242.181 (talk) 02:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there is. Homeopathy with astrology are the textbook case of obvious pseudoscience.--McSly (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

no - you are wrong - look what the best review for oscillo says — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.242.181 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

While SteveBaker provides an excellent explanation above, the real reason the article includes "Homeopathy is a pseudoscience" is the which (in the article) point to reliable sources that verify the statement. Anyone wanting to contest the statement needs to explain how the sources are incorrectly used, or provide other specific evidence to contradict the statement—bearing in mind that reliable sources are required. Johnuniq (talk) 04:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Assuming that by "the best review for oscillo" you mean the Cochrane review, it doesn't say anything about whether or not homoeopathy is regarded as pseudoscience, so cannot be used as a source on this point. Brunton (talk) 07:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, if we need more sourcing for this, several of the essays in the book Philosophy of Pseudoscience (ed. Massimo Pigliucci and Maarten Boudry) recently published by the University of Chicago Press use homoeopathy as an example of pseudoscience, for example (p. 30), "Despite the lack of generally accepted demarcation criteria, we find remarkable agreement among virtually all philosophers and scientists that fields like astrology, creationism, homeopathy are either pseudosciences or at least lack the epistemic warrant to be taken seriously", or (p. 49), "homeopathy is a paradigmatic example of pseudoscience". Brunton (talk) 07:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

correcting misrepresentative opinion

The asertion of the UK House of Commons Scientific Select Committee is contentious with regard to the support garnered from within the committe, it noted that only three of those sitting actually voted and of those three none had any specilaist knowledge of the subject. No Health Care Trust at the time were invited to speak neither was representatives from Homeopathic association and not least no patient was afforded the same opportunity. As to the closing Paragraph remark that the government agrees is disingenous especial in light of Observations on the report Evidence Check 2: Homeopathy by the House Of Commons Science and Technology Committee, February 2010,which noted,these limitations make the Committee’s report an unreliable source of evidence about homeopathy. The jury must still be regarded as out on its efficacy and risk/ benefit ratio. Whether more research should be done, and of what kind, is another question. But there can be no ethical objection to it since the principal questions have not, as the Committee claimed, “been settled already”. Earl Baldwin of Bewdley. June 2010. Added to which 206 sitting MPs signed an early day motion expressing concerns over the report content and procedure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.37.152 (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It is a direct quote from the report. If you want to have this modified or removed you will have to provide a WP:RS source of equal or greater weight which clearly contradicts the report. What you have provide so far is primarily WP:OR . --Daffydavid (talk) 00:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That EDM was by David Tredinnick (politician). 'Nuff said. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Better Source for Placebo Claim?

The lede makes the strong claim that "its remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos" yet the cited source is much less committal in its interpretation:

Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

Surely there is a better source, that more firmly supports the statement in the lede? I'd rather not back up an assertion that "homeopathic remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos" with a finding that "there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homeopathic remedies." Most studies I've found online are meta-studies that are themselves based on analysis of earlier studies, many of which were conducted with the intention of proving that homeopathy works. So the meta-studies generally take the approach of finding flaws with the earlier studies, or cross-referencing effects to smooth out differences and reduce the significance of measured effects. I understand why they need to do this (nobody but homeopathy supporters tend to want to fund large-scale studies of homeopathy) but for something that is so widely accepted as pseudoscience among the mainstream medical community, surely there is some primary research with a less wishy-washy demonstration of the placebo claim?

Also, the same source is actually listed twice in the references. I'd try to fix it but the proper syntax for handling citations in Misplaced Pages is.. less than obvious to me. --Pyrrhoneia (talk) 05:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Extremely high dilutions as basically only line of argument against homeopathy over several paragraphs?

Over several paragraphs in the "Evidence and Efficacy" section of the article, homeopathy is dismissed with the sole argument that extremely high dilutions (over D20/C10) statistically leave none of the original substance in the final product:
"The low concentration of homeopathic remedies, which often lack even a single molecule of the diluted substance..."
"The extreme dilutions used in homeopathic preparations often leave none of the original substance in the final product."
"The extremely high dilutions in homeopathy preclude a biologically plausible mechanism of action."
This, of course is statistically true for those extreme dilutions. However, this argumentation (and, I reiterate, this argumentation is basically used as the sole argument in those paragraphs) ignores that most homeopathic medications are usally administered at far lower dilutions (D3 to D12), which do not pose the need to argue with "water memory" or "quantum effects", as even a dilution as high as D12 (X12) still contains roughly 10 substance molecules per mol (14g/0.5oz) of water. I think pointing out the impossible "high" dilutions as the sole line of argumentation while completely ignoring the "lower" dilutions is a structural flaw of those paragraphs and should be adressed. -- megA (talk) 21:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a section discussing high dilution, under the "Plausibility" sub-heading. But it is not by any means the "only line of argument", nor even the major one. There is more emphasis on the lack of reliable evidence for homeopathy's effectiveness. After all, as my grandmother used to say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". --Gronk Oz (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Gronk Oz, MegA is correct. While there are various other reasons to doubt the claims of homeopathy, they are nonetheless not adequately addressed in the specified paragraphs. MegA's point was about the article, not about homeopathy. This article actually does a pretty terrible job of providing references explaining why homeopathy is considered a pseudoscience. I came here looking for an easily accessible list of such references, but most of the cited sources are meta-studies that actually end up providing weak support for homeopathy rather than refuting it. I understand why that is (they're meta-studies based on primary studies that were attempting to prove homeopathy was effective) but there are good primary studies, if you dig deep enough. They're old and not all of them are online, though. I'm trying to locate them now, but help would be appreciated. --Pyrrhoneia (talk) 06:52, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

For your enjoyment

http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/wikipedia-call-to-action-to-update-homeopathy-at-wikipedia Be aware of online petitions! As a fun sidenote, this clearly demonstrate how homeopaths think how science works: By petition.^^Rka001 (talk) 11:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Why are they calling for "a large number of people sign this petition"? Surely, the less people that sign it, the more effective it will be. ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

• Pseudoscience articles under contentious topics procedure
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Delisted good articles
• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class Alternative medicine articles
• B-Class Alternative views articles
• High-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• B-Class medicine articles
• Mid-importance medicine articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages