| Revision as of 07:27, 17 June 2014 editBon courage (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users66,162 edits Reverted to revision 613134648 by Alexbrn (talk): Rv to good. (TW)← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:43, 18 June 2014 edit undoKhabboos (talk | contribs)1,384 edits →For your enjoymentNext edit → | ||
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| :Why are they calling for "a large number of people sign this petition"? Surely, the less people that sign it, the more effective it will be. ;) ] (]) 14:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC) | :Why are they calling for "a large number of people sign this petition"? Surely, the less people that sign it, the more effective it will be. ;) ] (]) 14:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::I got a request to sign a petition from change.org to avoid the Homeopathic section's closure at the Bristol (or was it Glasgow?) Hospital which claimed that a petition for it's closure was signed by 2000 sceptics/critics of Homeopathy, while they have 24,000 signatures to avoid its closure and were looking to make it 25,000 signatures. However, are we at wikipedia going to put such trivia into this article? I hope not!—] (]) 14:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ below, which represents the consensus of editors here. Please remember that this page is only for discussing Misplaced Pages's encyclopedia article about Homeopathy.  To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.
Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.)
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Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory. References
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Pseodoscience
The article calls homeopathy a pseudoscience, but nowhere in wikipedia's guidelines does this seem to be allowed. Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories There is no scientific consensus that homeopathy is pseudoscience, especially in Europe, therefore, it is classified as a questionable science. Klocek (talk) 12:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- It's not explicitly stated, in the Misplaced Pages guidelines that anything should be called anything. The thing is that there is nothing in the guidelines that says it shouldn't be - and anything that's not forbidden is OK. What we ARE required to do is to represent the world from a mainstream scientific perspective and to provide references for what we say.
- The mainstream scientific view is that Homeopathy is a pseudoscience...and we have references to prove that. So there is no reason we shouldn't say so. More importantly, the WP:FRINGE guidelines make it clear that it would be a breach of the neutral position to allow the homeopathists to dominate the content of the article with their bogus (according to mainstream science - and therefore according to Misplaced Pages) position.
- Aside from all of that - you may ask why poor old homeopathy is being called a pseudoscience in the first place? Some see this word as some kind of an insult. It's not, it's a straightforward classification of an idea or discipline. The definition of the word pseudoscience given in most dictionaries agrees with the one provided by Wiktionary, which I'll quote for you:
- Any body of knowledge purported to be scientific or supported by science but which fails to comply with the scientific method.
- Homeopathy undoubtedly purports to be scientific - it makes MANY claims to be able to produce certain results from certain practices based on scientific-sounding descriptions of some very odd properties of water.
- The deciding factor is therefore whether or not homeopathy follows "The Scientific Method".
- I suggest you read at least the introduction to our Scientific method article...but here is a summary of what this means:
- Basically, the scientific method requires that you form an idea which you are not yet certain about. We call that a "hypothesis". A good hypothesis has to explain everything that we already know about the topic and then makes certain testable predictions about the universe. The next step is that you do some experiments to see if those predictions turn out to be true - and if they do, your hypothesis is a better explanation for how the universe works than the one we already have. So you write a paper describing your new hypothesis, what predictions you made, what experiments you did, what results you got and how you interpret those results to back up your hypothesis. This paper is then peer-reviewed for obvious mistakes and deceptions and to be sure that nobody else already showed it was true. That's by a bunch of other people who work in that field ("your peers") - and if it passes muster, it'll be published in some journal or other. If the hypothesis is reasonably compelling, other scientists will attempt to repeat your experiments to see if what you did really works as you claim and they may try to come up with alternative explanations for what you observed. They write more papers - perhaps devise more experiments to test your claims. Eventually, if enough of the other people who test this agree that your hypothesis is the best explanation for the experimental results, your hypothesis becomes accepted into the mainstream as a "theory". (Which is what used to be called a "law").
- So - the burning question here is: Do homeopathists do this? The answer is a blindingly clear "NO!" - they most certainly do not. What they did is to come up with two basic hypotheses:
- Diluting something until there is none left 'imprints' the water in some permanent or at least long-lived fashion.
- Drinking imprinted water affects your health in some manner - possibly the reverse of the harm that would be caused by ingesting the original substance.
- What experiments have been done to follow up on (1)? The answer is - none whatever. Not one single documented example of a homeopathist systematically testing whether water takes on this "imprint" has ever been performed! Where are the double-blind studies of (2)? Where is the statistical analysis of how many people were cured of their colds by very diluted raw duck liver?
- That is why we call homeopathy a "pseudoscience" - it makes scientific claims - but never does the hard work to test them...instead they skip the basic science, skip the human trials and go straight to selling the stuff in little bottles in WalMart.
- Misplaced Pages says that homeopathy is a pseudoscience because that is precisely, and undeniably what it is. This is the mainstream view of scientists - and it clearly follows the definition of the word and what is going on in the world of homeopathy.
- We don't say that religions are pseudosciences because they tell people to take their wild and crazy claims on faith - and (with some exceptions) tend not to make scientific predictions or wrap themselves in the mantle of science. We don't say that quantum physics is pseudoscience because although quantum physicists make scientific claims, they really do follow the scientific method.
Klocek (talk · contribs) - there is a scientific consensus that homoeopathy is pseudoscience, including "in Europe". Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- There is no consensus that homeopathy is pseudoscience --24.107.242.181 (talk) 02:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, there is. Homeopathy with astrology are the textbook case of obvious pseudoscience.--McSly (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- no - you are wrong - look what the best review for oscillo says — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.242.181 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- While SteveBaker provides an excellent explanation above, the real reason the article includes "Homeopathy is a pseudoscience" is the which (in the article) point to reliable sources that verify the statement. Anyone wanting to contest the statement needs to explain how the sources are incorrectly used, or provide other specific evidence to contradict the statement—bearing in mind that reliable sources are required. Johnuniq (talk) 04:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Assuming that by "the best review for oscillo" you mean the Cochrane review, it doesn't say anything about whether or not homoeopathy is regarded as pseudoscience, so cannot be used as a source on this point. Brunton (talk) 07:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Incidentally, if we need more sourcing for this, several of the essays in the book Philosophy of Pseudoscience (ed. Massimo Pigliucci and Maarten Boudry) recently published by the University of Chicago Press use homoeopathy as an example of pseudoscience, for example (p. 30), "Despite the lack of generally accepted demarcation criteria, we find remarkable agreement among virtually all philosophers and scientists that fields like astrology, creationism, homeopathy are either pseudosciences or at least lack the epistemic warrant to be taken seriously", or (p. 49), "homeopathy is a paradigmatic example of pseudoscience". Brunton (talk) 07:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- no - you are wrong - look what the best review for oscillo says — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.242.181 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, there is. Homeopathy with astrology are the textbook case of obvious pseudoscience.--McSly (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
correcting misrepresentative opinion
The asertion of the UK House of Commons Scientific Select Committee is contentious with regard to the support garnered from within the committe, it noted that only three of those sitting actually voted and of those three none had any specilaist knowledge of the subject. No Health Care Trust at the time were invited to speak neither was representatives from Homeopathic association and not least no patient was afforded the same opportunity. As to the closing Paragraph remark that the government agrees is disingenous especial in light of Observations on the report Evidence Check 2: Homeopathy by the House Of Commons Science and Technology Committee, February 2010,which noted,these limitations make the Committee’s report an unreliable source of evidence about homeopathy. The jury must still be regarded as out on its efficacy and risk/ benefit ratio. Whether more research should be done, and of what kind, is another question. But there can be no ethical objection to it since the principal questions have not, as the Committee claimed, “been settled already”. Earl Baldwin of Bewdley. June 2010. Added to which 206 sitting MPs signed an early day motion expressing concerns over the report content and procedure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.37.152 (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- It is a direct quote from the report. If you want to have this modified or removed you will have to provide a WP:RS source of equal or greater weight which clearly contradicts the report. What you have provide so far is primarily WP:OR . --Daffydavid (talk) 00:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
- That EDM was by David Tredinnick (politician). 'Nuff said. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Better Source for Placebo Claim?
The lede makes the strong claim that "its remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos" yet the cited source is much less committal in its interpretation:
Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.
Surely there is a better source, that more firmly supports the statement in the lede? I'd rather not back up an assertion that "homeopathic remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos" with a finding that "there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homeopathic remedies." Most studies I've found online are meta-studies that are themselves based on analysis of earlier studies, many of which were conducted with the intention of proving that homeopathy works. So the meta-studies generally take the approach of finding flaws with the earlier studies, or cross-referencing effects to smooth out differences and reduce the significance of measured effects. I understand why they need to do this (nobody but homeopathy supporters tend to want to fund large-scale studies of homeopathy) but for something that is so widely accepted as pseudoscience among the mainstream medical community, surely there is some primary research with a less wishy-washy demonstration of the placebo claim?
Also, the same source is actually listed twice in the references. I'd try to fix it but the proper syntax for handling citations in Misplaced Pages is.. less than obvious to me. --Pyrrhoneia (talk) 05:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Extremely high dilutions as basically only line of argument against homeopathy over several paragraphs?
Over several paragraphs in the "Evidence and Efficacy" section of the article, homeopathy is dismissed with the sole argument that extremely high dilutions (over D20/C10) statistically leave none of the original substance in the final product:
"The low concentration of homeopathic remedies, which often lack even a single molecule of the diluted substance..."
"The extreme dilutions used in homeopathic preparations often leave none of the original substance in the final product."
"The extremely high dilutions in homeopathy preclude a biologically plausible mechanism of action."
This, of course is statistically true for those extreme dilutions. However, this argumentation (and, I reiterate, this argumentation is basically used as the sole argument in those paragraphs) ignores that most homeopathic medications are usally administered at far lower dilutions (D3 to D12), which do not pose the need to argue with "water memory" or "quantum effects", as even a dilution as high as D12 (X12) still contains roughly 10 substance molecules per mol (14g/0.5oz) of water. I think pointing out the impossible "high" dilutions as the sole line of argumentation while completely ignoring the "lower" dilutions is a structural flaw of those paragraphs and should be adressed. -- megA (talk) 21:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
- There is a section discussing high dilution, under the "Plausibility" sub-heading. But it is not by any means the "only line of argument", nor even the major one. There is more emphasis on the lack of reliable evidence for homeopathy's effectiveness. After all, as my grandmother used to say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". --Gronk Oz (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Gronk Oz, MegA is correct. While there are various other reasons to doubt the claims of homeopathy, they are nonetheless not adequately addressed in the specified paragraphs. MegA's point was about the article, not about homeopathy. This article actually does a pretty terrible job of providing references explaining why homeopathy is considered a pseudoscience. I came here looking for an easily accessible list of such references, but most of the cited sources are meta-studies that actually end up providing weak support for homeopathy rather than refuting it. I understand why that is (they're meta-studies based on primary studies that were attempting to prove homeopathy was effective) but there are good primary studies, if you dig deep enough. They're old and not all of them are online, though. I'm trying to locate them now, but help would be appreciated. --Pyrrhoneia (talk) 06:52, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
For your enjoyment
http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/wikipedia-call-to-action-to-update-homeopathy-at-wikipedia Be aware of online petitions! As a fun sidenote, this clearly demonstrate how homeopaths think how science works: By petition.^^Rka001 (talk) 11:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- Why are they calling for "a large number of people sign this petition"? Surely, the less people that sign it, the more effective it will be. ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- I got a request to sign a petition from change.org to avoid the Homeopathic section's closure at the Bristol (or was it Glasgow?) Hospital which claimed that a petition for it's closure was signed by 2000 sceptics/critics of Homeopathy, while they have 24,000 signatures to avoid its closure and were looking to make it 25,000 signatures. However, are we at wikipedia going to put such trivia into this article? I hope not!—Khabboos (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
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