| Revision as of 05:02, 25 June 2014 editCFCF (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers35,041 edits OneClickArchiver archived 1 discussion to Talk:Osteopathy/Archive 2← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:47, 2 July 2014 edit undoKarinpower (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,675 edits →Ability to heal and repair itself: lede is oversimpliedNext edit → | ||
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| :It's not really right - and not sourced to an independent source. Something like the NHS would be better. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 07:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC) | :It's not really right - and not sourced to an independent source. Something like the NHS would be better. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 07:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :: I agree, I'll put it in the article. ] ] 13:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC) | :: I agree, I'll put it in the article. ] ] 13:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :::I think the lede is pretty oversimplified compared to the descriptions of osteopathy that I've heard (I attended a lecture by a Canadian trained osteopath, similar to European training). I don't presently have a source in front of me so I'm not proposing a specific change, but noting that there was appreciation of the subtle complexities of health: fluid regulation including lymphatic and venous drainage as being key for longevity, the many small forces that milk the pituitary, the figure-8 motion present throughout the body during walking, including in the hip joint, between the two hips, and in the sacrum itself, and so forth. Also it struck me that they are incredibly interested in anatomical details and in learning embryology as a guide to adult anatomy and pathology. As embryology is getting cut from medical schools, the osteopaths may be the last to care about that. | |||
| :::This is what I consider oversimplified - because it sounds like the scope of a good massage therapist: | |||
| :::"Its practitioners claim that the wellbeing of an individual depends on their bones, muscles, ligaments and connective tissue functioning smoothly together. Osteopaths receive special training in the musculoskeletal system. They believe that their treatments, which primarily consist of moving, stretching and massaging a person’s muscles and joints...."--] (]) 03:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Opening
Suggest we change: "Osteopathy is a philosophy and an alternative medical practice which emphasizes the interrelationship between structure and function of the body and recognizes the body's ability to heal itself; it is the role of the osteopath to facilitate that process, principally by the practice of manual and manipulative therapy" into: "Osteopathy is a philosophy and an alternative medical practice which assumes an interrelationship between structure and function of the body and an ability of the body to heal itself. The osteopath is thought to facilitate that healing process, principally by the practice of manual and manipulative therapy" or something simular. 193.202.33.19 (talk) 13:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- The addition of the words "assumes" and "is thought" weaken the description, IMO. The purpose of the lead is to define the topic. The first description does that. The second introduces a skeptical POV which I don't think belongs in the lead. Sunray (talk) 20:22, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if the suggestion by the IP editor is quite accurate. Nobody is disputing that there is an "interrelationship between structure and function of the body", it's just that the text make it sound like the osteopaths understand something about that interrelationship that the knowledge-based medicine does not. Heptor talk 13:42, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- Right -- also, the implication that "facilitation of the healing process" via "manual and manipulative therapy" is supported by some sort of neutral, double-blinded study data, which to my knowledge it is not. DoctorJoeE /talk to me! 17:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- I changed it to "Osteopaths claim to facilitate the healing process", hopefully it reflects the state of affairs more accurately. Heptor talk 17:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
- Right -- also, the implication that "facilitation of the healing process" via "manual and manipulative therapy" is supported by some sort of neutral, double-blinded study data, which to my knowledge it is not. DoctorJoeE /talk to me! 17:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Just a quick comment on something that I think needs ammending -The Maidstone School is fully accredited and trains registered (GOsC) practitioners. I am at a loss as to why the article says the school has lost it's GOsc accreditation. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.44.129 (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- That whole sentence (the last one in the scope of manual therapies subsection) seems unnecessary and a bit judgmental to me - not to mention completely unsourced; perhaps we should just remove it entirely? DoctorJoeE /talk to me! 15:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- The entire section is unsourced and poorly written. Whatever you do to it you can only make it better. Heptor talk 15:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'll take out that last sentence (which is potentially libelous besides), and I'll have a go at rewriting the rest if I can find any WP:RS to cite on it. DoctorJoeE /talk to me! 17:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Lead
The lead of this article is not very clear. It is overly complex, poorly worded, and fails to provide the reader with a good summary of the article's subject. Other editors have noted the problems in the lead. One example is the sentence below. I am going to work on it. If anyone has constructive ideas, please share.
- "The American Osteopathic Association recommends using the terms osteopathic physician and osteopathic medicine to distinguish individuals trained in osteopathic medicine in the United States who have attained the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.), a degree equivalent, though different in certain aspects, to that of Doctor of Medicine (M.D.), who practice the full scope of medicine and receive additional training in osteopathic manipulative medicine from individuals described as osteopaths who use osteopathy, the restricted-scope form of practice outside of North America."
- Rytyho usa (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- If you can make that make sense, that would be much appreciated. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:26, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think the lead looks much better now. It can howver be streamlined further. For example, WOHO does not seem to be important enough to be mentioned in the lead. How about moving that paragraph somehere further down the article? Heptor talk 11:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
legit science
medical science shows not only a cause/effect relationship, but the mechanism of this relationship - at least, as is possible. it's not always possible. cip - adhd, and symptom improvement caused by stimulant meds like ritalin & adderal. in this and many other cases, cause/effect is vague. however, take immunization, where dead viral material is identified as foreign by the immune system, which eventually makes anti-bodies to prevent a harmful infection by this virus. this mechanism is understood in great detail. many others are known/documented to various degrees. are there any that can be shown for osteopathy? inclusion of these would make the article more informative, less vague, and for many of us, more convincing. MozartIsNew (talk) 01:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Ability to heal and repair itself
It looks like there is a sort of discussion in the article history, let's move it here. Should the first sentence in the lead end with "as well as the body's ability to heal and repair itself", or "as well as the body's claimed ability to heal and repair itself"? I think the first formulation is the most appropriate, since it is not controversial that that the human body has such an ability on a certain scope, for example simple cuts or flu. Osteopaths claim that this ability can 1) be affected by osteopathic practices of applying hand pressure to various parts of the body and 2) be extended to diseases that are considered incurable, such as Parkinson's Disease. These claims do not appear to have any scientific standing, but I don't see how the first formulation in any way implies that interpretation. Heptor talk 22:05, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- It's not really right - and not sourced to an independent source. Something like the NHS would be better. Alexbrn 07:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, I'll put it in the article. Heptor talk 13:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think the lede is pretty oversimplified compared to the descriptions of osteopathy that I've heard (I attended a lecture by a Canadian trained osteopath, similar to European training). I don't presently have a source in front of me so I'm not proposing a specific change, but noting that there was appreciation of the subtle complexities of health: fluid regulation including lymphatic and venous drainage as being key for longevity, the many small forces that milk the pituitary, the figure-8 motion present throughout the body during walking, including in the hip joint, between the two hips, and in the sacrum itself, and so forth. Also it struck me that they are incredibly interested in anatomical details and in learning embryology as a guide to adult anatomy and pathology. As embryology is getting cut from medical schools, the osteopaths may be the last to care about that.
- This is what I consider oversimplified - because it sounds like the scope of a good massage therapist:
- "Its practitioners claim that the wellbeing of an individual depends on their bones, muscles, ligaments and connective tissue functioning smoothly together. Osteopaths receive special training in the musculoskeletal system. They believe that their treatments, which primarily consist of moving, stretching and massaging a person’s muscles and joints...."--Karinpower (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, I'll put it in the article. Heptor talk 13:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)