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Revision as of 22:42, 17 July 2014 editIamozy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,142 edits →Third Opinion← Previous edit Revision as of 05:04, 18 July 2014 edit undoTeply (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,630 edits closing the distracting discussion of "nationalist"Next edit →
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== "Nationalist"? == == "Nationalist"? ==


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== Third Opinion == == Third Opinion ==


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<!-- If the person mentioned was a member of a nationalistic religious group why should this be omitted from the introduction? As a matter of fact the introduction per se needs no references anyway.--] (]) 17:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC) --> <!-- If the person mentioned was a member of a nationalistic religious group why should this be omitted from the introduction? As a matter of fact the introduction per se needs no references anyway.--] (]) 17:29, 6 June 2014 (UTC) -->
This figure was a member of the religio-political group ], which was founded by the nationalist ]. Very few sources independently refer to Kenji as a nationalist. Should the article refer to him as a nationalist? ] (]) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC) This figure was a member of the religio-political group ], which was founded by the nationalist ]. Very few sources independently refer to Kenji as a nationalist. Should the article refer to him as a nationalist? ] (]) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
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*'''Not a Nationalist''' After spending a great deal of time looking at Japanese references to Miyazawa, I come to the same conclusion as the IP editor above. Simple membership of a group does not mean one agrees with the views of a group's leader. Unions, trade guilds, etc all have members of dissociative views, the leader of the ] is a , that doesn't make every union member a communist as well. ] ] ߷ ] 00:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC) *'''Not a Nationalist''' After spending a great deal of time looking at Japanese references to Miyazawa, I come to the same conclusion as the IP editor above. Simple membership of a group does not mean one agrees with the views of a group's leader. Unions, trade guilds, etc all have members of dissociative views, the leader of the ] is a , that doesn't make every union member a communist as well. ] ] ߷ ] 00:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose "nationalist" characterization''' Not enough sources claim otherwise. --] (]) 22:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC) *'''Oppose "nationalist" characterization''' Not enough sources claim otherwise. --] (]) 22:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
*'''Closing''' because it's pretty clear there's a consensus. I suggest moving on to more interesting content. I came here intending to start the ], but I see someone else has already gotten it going in the last few weeks. Maybe some of the people here would like to work on ] or ]. "どっどどどどうど どどうど どどう" ] (]) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Nationalist"?

I removed the unqualified claim that he was a "nationalist" from the intro. One of the two sources cited was a 2006 PhD dissertation that was about about a religious and quasi-political ideology with which he was affiliated. The problem is that even though that source appears to be, in its brief coverage of the subject of this article, directly associating Kenji's politics with those of his co-religionists, it also specifies that hardly any other reliable sources make this connection. This means that the source is not sufficient for the claim that "Kenji Miyazawa was a nationalist"; it is sufficient for the statement "A minority of scholars have attributed nationalistic leanings to Miyazawa". The view is WP:FRINGE. I don't mean "fringe" in a derogatory sense. I just mean it is a view that is "not widely held among the academic community yet". Kenji scholars can duke this issue out in journal articles and scholarly books. If at some point the scholarly consensus becomes "Kenji was a nationalist" (i.e., a scholar makes the specific claim that this is the consensus view and is not called out by his/her peers) then we can add this statement to the article. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 13:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Please refrain from deleting referenced sources. He was also a member of Kokuchūkai.--Catflap08 (talk) 13:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
If this is going to elevate I should admit outright that I am this user. I'm editing logged out for reasons.
The reliable sources all state that he was a member of a religious group. I've read numerous books and articles that state he adhered strongly to the religious views of this group. None of them mentioned the politics of the group, or hinted that he himself shared the political views of the group's leaders. The only source that does imply he shared these views also admits openly that this is a minority view.
126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
(EDIT CONFLICT) Why did you revert me again without trying to discuss here first? WP:BURDEN says that the burden is on the party wishing to add information to the article that to find source that specifically support said information. I provided a coherent argument that your sources do not support your claim but in fact contradict your claim. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Follow the procedure so far you deletion is nothing else than a private opinion. --Catflap08 (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, per WP:BURDEN: please provide a source that actually supports the claim you are trying to add to the article. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Also, since I'm arguing that "he was a nationalist" is a minority view and so it is inappropriate to make this claim per WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, I would draw your attention to WP:TERTIARY: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other. I wonder if you can find a reliably published encyclopedia or similar whose article on Miyazawa Kenji states "Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist"? 126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
It turns out not only WP:BURDEN but WP:BRD is also on my side here. This claim was unilaterally and boldly added to the article by Catflap08 in January, challenged by another user (not me) in April before being re-added again, without justification, by Catflap08. Since the default position should be "leave it out", I'm going to remove the claim again, and if Catflap08 attempts to re-add it without discussing here, I will take it as an indication that he/she is unwilling to use the talk page and our dispute will need to go to WP:FTN or WP:ANEW. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:40, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

already brought the case to the attention of admins ... mentioning both your names--Catflap08 (talk) 14:43, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You mean you posted on a semi-protected noticeboard so I would be unable to respond without logging in. Please read WP:SHOOTFIRST. I have been trying to discuss this content dispute with you on this talk page, but you jumped ahead and complained about me to the admin corps without making any attempt to use the talk page. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 14:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Third Opinion

This figure was a member of the religio-political group Kokuchūkai, which was founded by the nationalist Chigaku Tanaka. Very few sources independently refer to Kenji as a nationalist. Should the article refer to him as a nationalist? 182.249.240.43 (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I hid Catflap's initial, biased OP as a WP:COMMENT as it didn't meet the neutrality requirement of WP:RFC and apparently misled a couple of other participants who don't appear to have read my remarks below. 182.249.240.43 (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
126 reply detailing coverage of the subject in relation to nationalism in reliable and semi-reliable sources.
So what you're saying, Catflap, is that we should claim "Kenji Miyazawa was a nationalist" without even citing a source? Almost no reliable sources actually say he was a nationalist. They say he was a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism. Other reliable sources state that the founder of the particular religious group was a nationalist, that the group had nationalistic leanings, etc. But this is equivalent to adding the phrase "She is an opponent of gay marriage" to the article on Nicole Kidman because the leader of her religious group holds that view. 126.0.96.220 (talk) 22:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Since this subject is notable exclusively as a writer I added the "media, the arts, and architecture" topic to this RfC, and since the present dispute is based entirely on his religious affiliation I added the religion topic as well. Since your assertion is about his political views the politics topic was also added. Also, I should point out the following noteworthy data regarding the classification of Kenji as a "nationalist":
For morphological reasons every possible Japanese word for "nationalist" (noun referring to a person) is derived from one of the root words meaning "nationalism". Since some sources might refer to him as, for instance, "nationalistic" or following a group that is associated with "nationalism", I decided to search only for the words in their simplest form. I then looked up the word "nationalism" in the English-Japanese dictionary Genius Ei-Wa Daijiten (Konishi and Minamide, Taishukan, 2001-2004). There were four words that could be taken as referring to the political ideology (主義, shugi) of nationalism (as opposed to words describing artistic movements or psychological tendencies): kokka-shugi, minzoku-shugi, kokusui-shugi and aikoku-shugi. I then examined the search results on Google Books, general Google search for specifically the Miyazawa Kenji Memorial Museum website, and general Google search for Japanese university domain-names. My search was slightly complicated by Kenji's surname being written two different ways in Japanese (宮沢/宮澤). This is why every possible combination has two links given. I focused on Japanese-language sources because somewhere between 90% and 99.99% of Kenji scholarship is in Japanese and has never been (will never be) translated. Therefore, if there is ever a claim made about Kenji in English-language source that is not backed up by Japanese-language scholarship, it is by definition WP:FRINGE. I also notice that User:Catflap08's user page boasts of speaking German, English and some French, but not Japanese. This makes it very difficult for this user to analyze mainstream scholarship on this topic.
Please also bear in mind that these results are the ones that happen to include one or more of words for "nationalism" somewhere in the same book/webpage as the name "Miyazawa Kenji". The results almost certainly include a plurality of sources that say "Miyazawa Kenji was not a nationalist and here's why", "Tanaka Chigaku was nationalist ... ... poet and children's author Miyazawa Kenji found Chigaku's religious views compelling" or, like Catflap08's source, "I think Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist, but as of yet no one else agrees with me". The results that include one or more of the words for "nationalism" are also partly (mostly?) multiplied unduly, because of sources that use more than one of these words being counted twice, three times or four times.
Mentions of "nationalism" on the official Miyazawa Kenji Memorial Museum website: kokka-shugi (0); minzoku-shugi (0); kokusui-shugi (0); aikoku-shugi (0)
Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji: 171,000 + 56,900 = 227,900
Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (kokka-shugi): 380 + 157 = 537
Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (minzoku-shugi): 132 + 23 = 155
Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (kokusui-shugi): 129 + 25 = 154
Books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (aikoku-shugi): 53 + 3 = 56
Total number of books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism: 537 + 155 + 154 + 56 = 902
Proportion of books mentioning Miyazawa Kenji that also mention nationalism: 902/227,900 = 0.4%
Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji: 22,200 + 5,800 = 28,000
Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (kokka-shugi): 279 + 82 = 361
Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (minzoku-shugi): 499 + 75 = 574
Japanese university-domain webpages mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (kokusui-shugi): 70 + 18 = 88
Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism (aikoku-shugi): 107 + 10 = 117
Total number of Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji and nationalism: 361 + 574 + 88 + 117 = 1,140
Proportion of Japanese university-domain websites mentioning Miyazawa Kenji that also mention nationalism: 1,140/28,000 = 4.1%
So yeah, virtually all reliable/semi-reliable sources mentioning/discussing the subject of this article make no mention whatsoever of nationalism of any kind. "Miyazawa Kenji was a nationalist" is a fringe theory, as Catflap08's source actually admits. Ball's in your court, Catflap.
126.0.96.220 (talk) 11:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The balance of the evidence suggests that characterizing Kenji as a nationalist is not supported by a majority of reliable sources. At this point, omitting the characterization may be the most prudent course of action. Factchecker25 (talk) 00:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/Kokuch%C5%ABkai and the article on the founder seems to confirm the group has 'nationalist tendencies' to some degree. I guess the question is if it is helpful to include this or if there is a good reason? I don't think you could say "..is a nationalist', but if it fit, you could allude "was a member of Kokuchu-kai, a group observed as being nationalist" or ..with a renowned Nationalist leader. It does seem like there would have to be some correlation with his personal leanings and the group he joined, as it is different than just working for a company. Joining a religious organization of that sort is implying there is at least some interest in the behavior or beliefs. Prasangika37 (talk) 03:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
If he was a confirmed member of the organization, then you can say so uncontroversially. As to whether it was "nationalist" is a discussion for that article, not this one. At any rate, back in those days, nationalism was hardly exceptional. Teply (talk) 06:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
@User:Teply The article already does say he was a member of the group. Thing is, the group is arguably best-known as the religious group of which he was part. And he himself was almost certainly not a nationalist. Almost no reliable sources discussing him (including the group's official website's article on him) refer to him as sharing the nationalistic views of the group's founder.
@User:Prasangika37 Please read WP:NOTSOURCE before citing other Misplaced Pages articles to solve a dispute on this (currently much better) Misplaced Pages article. One of those articles was written in its entirety by Catflap based entirely on sources discussing Japanese nationalism during World War II, as discussed on the relevant talk page. Anyway, you could repeat my earlier Google experiment with "nationalism" "replaced with "Kokuchūkai" and find that almost all reliable sources discussing Kenji also mention that he was a member of the group, but almost never refer to either him or the group as nationalist.
126.0.96.220 (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Okay yes I see this is quite clear now. Seems to be a single user's opinion as opposed to something that is validly sourced or established. Prasangika37 (talk) 03:37, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
  • No - Do not refer to Kenji as a nationalist. At first glance, I'm having trouble seeing any sources which uses this adjective in relation to Kenji. I'm happy to change to mind if anyone wants to point to an RS for me. NickCT (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Not a Nationalist After spending a great deal of time looking at Japanese references to Miyazawa, I come to the same conclusion as the IP editor above. Simple membership of a group does not mean one agrees with the views of a group's leader. Unions, trade guilds, etc all have members of dissociative views, the leader of the AFL-CIO is a declared Communist, that doesn't make every union member a communist as well. ♥ Solarra ♥ ߷ ♀ 投稿 ♀ 00:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose "nationalist" characterization Not enough sources claim otherwise. --Iamozy (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Closing because it's pretty clear there's a consensus. I suggest moving on to more interesting content. I came here intending to start the Matasaburo of the Wind, but I see someone else has already gotten it going in the last few weeks. Maybe some of the people here would like to work on Vegetarian Great Festival or The Dragon and the Poet. "どっどどどどうど どどうど どどう" Teply (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Categories: