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Film: American Start‑class

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Politics Start‑class Low‑importance

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 09:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

America: Imagine the World Without Her → America (2014 film) – "Imagine the World Without Her" is a tagline, not a subtitle --Relisted. Armbrust 07:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Krychek (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed. The official title this film is "America." Period. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
• "America" is too broad and doesn't tell what it is. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:17, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

"America (2014 film)" is abundantly descriptive, as WP article titles go. "America" is the official title of the film. If that's not colorful enough for you, there's not much WP can do about it. This is not an editorial decision we are making; it is a simple fact. Krychek (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support Should go by naming standards.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page probably needs admin intervention or be watched on probation

The film America: Imagine the World Without Her because it's a conservative political documentary is naturally attracting all sorts of POV edits complete with POV edit warring. FYI during the last 30 days I have seen this movie at the theater along with Captain America: The Winter Soldier (again), X-Men: Days of Future Past (again), Maleficent, Edge of Tomorrow, Chef and 22 Jump Street. Unlike the POV editors I do actually attend the theater on a frequent basis. Calling CinemaScore irrelevant, is purely an ignorant POV edit. Personally I always use CinemaScore before spending $10.00+ to watch a movie, it's that important and the only metric I care about before viewing a movie.

So for of the top 10 grossing movies for 2014, CinemaScore grades are included in at least 7 of their respective wikipedia articles.

Withholding sources that are not blacklisted material is POV editing especially after I provided another non-biased website as a source, but acting in poor faith that is removed as well. There have been at least 3 editors on this page in the last 24 hours with an agenda.

I'm already bored of this BS which is why I rarely edit wikipedia at this point and am going to watch Non-Stop on Bluray, I actually watch movies. Yabbadabbadootucker (talk) 09:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

As Conservatives, my wife and I also loved the movie. I'll be watching here also. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:15, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Lede

Now the lead paragraph material is too short. When I first saw the editing: (1) 'Liberal' film reviewers didn't like it; ; Then,(2) Film reviewers didn't like it ; (3) to which I put in "some reviewers didn't like it" (rewording); and now (4) An editor removes the sentence(s) and says "Stick to the facts." Someone can write a proper Lede in awhile, after the movie makes its mark. It is important in the article here. It is also important to document what you say. Right? -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2014 (UTC) PS: I would say that the negative comments (at this time) are not important in the Lede of this article.

Specifically: An editor said the film received "poor ratings" from liberal critics; which was changed to "critics" which I changed to "some critics". Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest that you write a concise lede explaining the movie's basic scope; what it's about, especially since there's no "Plot" section. VictorD7 (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

The descriptive lead-in paragraph looks great, that you added. TNKS, Victor DeeSeven. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The lede is not WP:POV. Defining them as "attacks" makes a judgement. The wording should be significantly changed.Casprings (talk) 12:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The lede is still an opinion of the filmmaker/writer so it was stated as such. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Questionable sources

Citations of a questionable nature should not be used in Misplaced Pages. One of the worst offenders is World Net Daily which is completely untrustworthy as shown by Politifact at . Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:36, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Politifact is itself a partisan source, no more reliable than WND (or CBS, the NY Times, the New Republic, CNN, NBC, etc.), but I added the Box Office Mojo source confirming the ranking, so hopefully that addresses any lingering concerns you have. VictorD7 (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I challenge your claim that Politifact is a partisan source because it is a service of the Tampa Bay Times which is a bonafied journalistic source. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

If you don't believe newspapers can exhibit partisan bias than I'm not sure we have much basis for rational discussion. The WND story is factually correct, as I proved, so you have no legitimate basis for deleting it. Even your Politifact page only shows two allegedly (in their opinion) false statements by WND. They've got four "Pants on Fire" examples for MSNBC. As for pure, general credibility, all the sources I listed above are "bona fide journalistic source(s)" too, and yet they've been caught in numerous journalistic scandals, including (but not limited to)...

NY Times - Reporter Jayson Blair fraudulently making up stories

New Republic - Writer Stephen Glass fraudulently making up stories

CBS - Dan Rather using a forged memo on the eve of a presidential election to try and swing the result

NBC - Dateline rigging cars to explode in a fraudulent consumer reports investigation; producers editing George Zimmerman's 911 call with outrageous dishonesty to make him look racist

CNN - Tailwind scandal where network leveled debunked charges against US military in Vietnam; Chief News Executive Eason Jordan confessing in 2003 that CNN had buried atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein in exchange for the network getting greater access, a deal that held for years.

I could go on and on. The point, however, is that all of these sources, despite the habitual bias, are generally reliable for the hard facts they contain, as a very prominent site like WND is. Whether a source is reliable or not is determined on a case by case basis contingent on what it's being used for. Misplaced Pages doesn't declare sources "unreliable" or "reliable" across the board. It depends on context. Here, the WND piece was verifiably accurate and you presented no legitimate reason for removing it. VictorD7 (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I do not count commentators on media sources, I am referring to the media source itself. With MSNBC, there was just one rating which was 'pants on fire' which is shown at . You can see all of them at which shows none for the New York Times or New Republic, none for CBS or CNN. Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

No, these four pants on fire rated claims are all from MSNBC hosts. WND only received one "pants on fire" rating according to your own link, btw. The lack of attention to most liberal sources, despite the well documented scandals I just laid out, underscores Politifact's partisan bias. But my point was that none of this means MSNBC or WND can't be used as Misplaced Pages sources, especially if the material they're being used to source is verifiable and undisputed, which was the case with WND this time.

Also, why did you revert my removal of a frivolous POV source someone placed in the lede? We don't need a snarky, politically slanted review to source a short sentence telling us who the director and producer are. If you feel a source is required, it would be easy to use a different one better suited to the task. Remember, NPOV is policy. It seems inconsistent for you to stridently oppose using an article in the body that's actually performing a useful task as a writeup on the specific historical ranking segment in the text, while equally stridently opposing the removal of an unnecessary biased sourced in the lede. VictorD7 (talk) 18:01, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Because you made an editing error which shows up in red in the article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

That just happened because I didn't see that the source had been manually added to the reference list at the bottom of the page. That's unusual, and only two sources here are so listed. Would you object to me removing and/or replacing the source provided that I correct that next time? VictorD7 (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Plot section or description?

Shouldn't someone describe what the movie is about, briefly in the lede and/or in a Plot section? VictorD7 (talk) 17:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The plot section should be developed, but it should also represent the criticisms of multiple WP:RS.Casprings (talk) 02:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Criticisms are featured in the "Reception" section. I don't know that I've ever seen them included in a "Plot" or "Synopsis" section. The synopsis section for Michael Moore's Sicko certainly doesn't include criticisms. VictorD7 (talk) 03:33, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Reception

The reception should reflect the general consensus among critics. That is what is normal in articles about movies. This should not set a new standards.Casprings (talk) 03:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a normal movie. It's an explicitly political film, and the reception has fallen predictably along party lines. It would be disingenuous of us to pretend otherwise, or that only the opinions of a tiny handful of people who mostly all happen to be on one side of the political divide is all that matters. It's also not uncommon for other political documentaries to include quotes from pundits or others in the reception sections. Besides, Ben Shapiro does review films. The section leads off by citing Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritics ratings, and includes quotes from Ebert.com and Reuters, so film critic opinion is well covered. VictorD7 (talk) 22:28, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem saying that various conservative media outlets defended the film. What I would have a problem with is labeling the huge number of movie credits that panned it "partisan". You don't get to make people "partisan" just because they didn't like the movie.Casprings (talk) 23:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Their commentary, even the quotes being used here, show they're liberal partisans. They're attacking the film on political grounds, not artistic ones. But we don't label the critics "partisan" or "liberal", so your concern is unfounded. We simply present their views, and add a quote from Shapiro. Keep in mind that the section is just titled "Reception", and the reception by audiences have been overwhelmingly positive. The current Reception section is fine. Your concern, and that of any good faith editors here, should be the total lack of a "Plot" or "Synopsis" section. That's more important than worrying about the Reception section somehow not being negative enough. VictorD7 (talk) 02:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I am fine with that. I am just making the point that we should not be providing labels for those who aren't themselves labeled as partisans. Also, the quote from Breitbart should be removed. It is a fringe source and would not normally be included in a movie's reaction section. Casprings (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Breitbart is not "fringe". It's one of the most prominent online media outlets in existence, roughly equivalent to the Huffington Post. It's an opinion blog, but so are most of the other sources being cited. Reception is about opinions. In fact Breitbart routinely publishes movie reviews, an example of which I just cited above. In my edit summaries I also observed that Ben Shapiro is notable enough to have his own Wiki article, unlike "Peter" whose quote precedes his. I suspect Breitbart is cited fairly often in reception sections, but if it's not it should be. VictorD7 (talk) 03:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Breitbart is certainly fringe because it is infamous for editing news stories to fit their biases, often changing context as a result. Remember Shirley Sherrod? Steelbeard1 (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Did you not see the list I just posted above? All of those scandals from NBC, CBS, and others are far worse. Regarding Sherrod, Breitbart, was handed a tape (a real one, not a forged memo ala Dan Rather) and posted it to show the NAACP's bigoted crowd reaction to her comments. The administration saw the line where she confessed to discriminating against white people, panicked, and fired her for the wrong reason without watching the full tape (Breitbart posted the version including her describing her supposed transformation away from racism online). After later seeing the transformation part they apologized and offered her a better job. Breitbart never called for her to be fired. She should have been fired for her later comments where she falsely characterized the Tea Party movement and other Obama critics as racists, but the administration ignored that (or likely endorses it) and essentially just knocked its own straw man down. Regardless, none of that makes Breitbart "fringe". The fact that the administration reacted to it shows it's not, as do other events like Breitbart's role in exposing (so to speak) Anthony Weiner, with Andrew Breitbart himself showing up at Weiner's scheduled press conference before Weiner did and being spontaneously mobbed with questions from the mainstream media. Furthermore, as I said below, here Breitbart is just being used to source it's own opinion, which it's clearly a RS for.VictorD7 (talk) 17:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Could you point to examples of the source being used in other non-political movie reviews?Casprings (talk)

Probably, since it's a major site that routinely publishes reviews (here's another example ), but, again, it doesn't matter. Editors not previously using a source has no bearing on whether it's acceptable to use. If editors have been excluding it for some reason they've been wrong to. And I've certainly seen pundit commentary from all sorts of corners on pages for explicitly political films, including outfits that don't normally do movie reviews (unlike Breitbart). VictorD7 (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. In the past, it has been seen as not a WP:RS source. While certainly that always depends on the context, it has been seen as similar to WND. As such I think it should be removed.Casprings (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I can't comment on what you've seen in the past, but both Breitbart and WND are at least as reliable as the Huffington Post or Ebert.com. In this case we're dealing with opinions, so all they would have to be reliable for anyway are their own views. I seriously doubt one could make a compelling case that they aren't reliable for that.VictorD7 (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

No. They are certainly reliable for their that. However, putting a fringe source's opinion in an article does not make a neutral article. Past concensus does not agree that Huff post is the same as WND. Perhaps is it is time to get some outside eyes to look at this?Casprings (talk) 20:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

If we agree that Breitbart is reliable for its own views, then on what basis are you calling it "fringe"? Alexa ranks it 41st among global news sites in internet traffic, and it broadly reflects the views of half of the American political spectrum. Clearly it's mainstream, not "fringe". VictorD7 (talk) 17:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I am arguing WP:Undue based on the fact that it is a fringe source. Including the quote weighs the story in a way that does not fit the context of the overall coverage.Casprings (talk) 18:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm asking why you think it's a "fringe" source given the facts I just posted. Repeatedly asserting it's "fringe" isn't an argument. If you're trying to claim that including a non negative quote (from any source) is "undue" here since most film critics panned the movie, then I'll remind you that the total reception from those who have seen the film has been overwhelmingly positive. It would be POV for us to censor out a quote that seems to reflect audience sentiment, leaving only quoted opinions representing maybe one or two dozen people whose one sided partisan views run overtly throughout their reviews. Sobczynski's column was almost entirely political; the recent edit switched his quote to about the only non political commentary he had, and, given the surrounding context, it was less than convincing. It would be blatant POV for us to suppress the other side here. Again, this isn't a normal movie, so when a film is explicitly political, reception breaks down along party lines, and film critics are overtly mostly on one side of that political divide while audiences and conservative commentators are on the other, it's not only acceptable to allow a quote from the other side contending what Shapiro does, it's the responsible thing to do. It doesn't mean you have to agree with him or the audiences that gave the film the rare A+ rating. VictorD7 (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

It is fringe because the community has seen it as fridge in the past, in most context. I am traveling but will link the relevant discussions latter.Casprings (talk) 20:11, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

See discussion here and here.

Your first linked discussion was four years ago, only had four posters participating, was asking whether Breitbart should be considered a valid news source (as opposed to a relevant opinion source), and only two posters even said "no" to that (without providing arguments). That's not a consensus for anything, much less anything pertinent to this discussion. Your second linked discussion was two years ago, and likewise asking about its RS news status specifically relating to Zimmerman/Martin case coverage. Even the posters arguing against Breitbart's use for facts in Misplaced Pages's voice pointed out that it could be used with attribution for news coverage, and that it was a reliable source for its own views. If anything, your links underscore what I've said. VictorD7 (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

• I went ahead and asked for greater community involvement in this issue. I posted it on WP:NPOVN. Discussion can be found here.Casprings (talk) 02:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't purge all mention of the obvious political dynamic at play here

It would be unconscionable for us to only allow quotes from left wing commentators on an explicitly conservative film. That kind of twisted propaganda isn't what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about. With an explicitly political film, reception is predictably breaking down along party lines, and the Shapiro quote directly addresses that. It comments not on the movie per se but on the reception, which is perfectly legitimate in the reception section. Even if one disagrees with him he's speaking for millions of non liberals.

I already know Casprings won't change his mind, but I'd like to hear others, especially @Srich32977:, specifically comment on the "weight" issue as it relates to this quote. If we're just discussing film critics' response, I could understand not quoting a dissenting minority film critic (at least for a non political film). But the section covers total reception, not just a dozen or so critics' opinions as aggregated by a particular site, and the political dynamic is impossible to legitimately ignore. Even if one thought the former version gave too much weight to conservative complaints about liberal critics being motivated by political bias, isn't a better solution to simply add another liberal quote rather than delete the one third party conservative quote making the vital point, and pretending the latter view doesn't exist? VictorD7 (talk) 18:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

We can safely assume good faith that Casprings will work towards consensus. And I don't think a Great Purge of general political commentary is underway or needed. But the Beitbart.com piece (presently removed) suffered because it was more about the critics on the other side of the spectrum, rather than the film. For the moment I'm simply waiting for more commentary to play out here and on the NPOVN. – S. Rich (talk) 18:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Did you read what I just wrote? The fact that he's commenting on the reception is a reason for including it, because with a political movie like this the reception, particularly the stark split between critics and audiences, is notable in and of itself. It's one thing if you disagree with me, but at least acknowledge what I say and address it. Where in Misplaced Pages policy does it say that movie articles should only contain quotes from professional film critics, and only quotes representing the majority view of that very narrow category at that? VictorD7 (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

1. The reception should reflect the reception of the film. I see no evidence that these film critics are panning this for political reasons. 2. It is not acceptable to call our editors in your OP. 3. Pinging on editor, who had the most sympathetic view at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard is in violation of WP:canvassing.Casprings (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

1. "The reception should reflect the reception of the film."

Agreed. That includes the reception by audiences, professional film critics, and other commentators. And, if noteworthy, facts or comments about the reception itself.

"I see no evidence that these film critics are panning this for political reasons."

You must not have read the reviews. For example, almost every paragraph of Sobczynski's review is attacking D'Souza's politics and making his own quite clear. The review's vile, almost childishly petty tone just makes it worse. Regardless, it's not about what you or I think. The sentiment that political bias is at play is undeniably widely held, and merits a mention.

2. Call out? I simply asked for S Rich's opinion. He did not have the most sympathetic view at NPOVN, which is why I'm asking him questions. Multiple editors showed up supporting the quote's inclusion, BTW, undermining your edit summary claim about the conversation's alleged "direction".

3. S Rich is currently very actively involved in editing this article on the specific issues in question so it would be ludicrous to accuse me of "canvassing" by wanting to talk to him about it. VictorD7 (talk) 19:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I said this at the noticeboard, but I'll repeat it here. A distinct "Political reaction" section would be far more appropriate than mixing that stuff in with film review. I'd support that. Those who are interested can see it, and those who aren't can skip it. Sources (and Wiki editors) definitely exist showing this film has stirred up the buzzing in those camps. So we should reflect it, without suggesting any of this has bearing on whether the movie sucked. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:50, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

I've done so, with a "other responses" section. – S. Rich (talk) 04:10, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I think rhyming "critical" with "political" would be more aesthically pleasing, but that hardly matters. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:35, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Except the reviews themselves are political reactions (just read them), and we probably don’t need two or three different sections to cover Reception when a single quote (like that from Shapiro) would have been sufficient to cover the widely held view about the reception, and when we still don’t have a Synopsis section. That said, since a new “Other reactions” section has been created (for good or ill), would you oppose adding the Shapiro quote to it? VictorD7 (talk) 04:30, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Some reviews themselves, maybe. But not what we take from them to include in our article. Many of the sources we use on Misplaced Pages present the facts with a slant. We excise them and (at least try to) present them without it. For example, in D'Souza's article we take from the apparently biased What's So Great About America the straightforward claim that he became a naturalized citizen in 1991. What readers will be exposed to if they use our sources for further research is an issue for the wider world to address. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:34, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question. Would you oppose adding the Shapiro quote? VictorD7 (talk) 05:44, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I added the POV template

- The page still doesn't even have a "Synopsis" section describing the movie, and yet some editors have taken great pains to ensure that it's stuffed with negative commentary.

- Even a few weeks into wide release, an editor is updating the drop in screen count and receipts every week, something I've never seen done in a movie article, without explaining why it's relevant or pointing out how small the drops have been compared to other movies. Frequently used source Box Office Mojo even described it as a "fantastic hold", but any hint that the drop was "slight" has been purged from the article.

- The closest thing to a third party positive quote the page had, an observation by notable pundit and occasional film reviewer Ben Shapiro commenting on the political nature of the reception, has been removed from the article.

- A brief, sourced clause quoting the self described political affiliation of the negative reviewer whose quote is most prominently featured was deleted, leaving no mention of his politics.

- The fact that many people believe film critics are overwhelmingly liberal (including the critics themselves), and that this might be relevant to their reviews of conservative documentaries like this one, has been whitewashed from the article.

- A sourced sentence providing historical perspective for the extremely rare A+ CinemaScore grade was removed from the text and relegated to a scroll over note (can't we do that with the far less relevant weekly screen drop sentences?). Update - The historical perspective segment has since been totally deleted by an editor who erroneously cited "FRINGE" and "SYNTH", possibly not understanding what they mean since the segment came directly from the primary source and its facts are verifiable (the purpose of the second source) and undisputed. The "fringe" claim is a non sequitur here.

- Recent editing has pushed the article even further in the direction of only having the liberal POV represented, which is unacceptable when discussing subjective opinions on an explicitly political documentary. VictorD7 (talk) 01:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

We are required to represent the response with due weight. If the critical response to the film is overwhelmingly negative, we are not required to add quotes from fringe publications praising the film for "balance". And we don't add large quotes from those fringe sources which take up more space than anything else in the section. This completely misrepresents the actual critical response.

Connecting separate facts that you think are related is WP:SYNTH. Presenting these facts in a manner designed to present your particular point of view about the critical response violates WP:NPOV. Gamaliel (talk) 03:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You don’t seem to understand what “fringe” means. Breitbart , a mainstream conservative outlet that’s ranked #41 among global news sites by Alexa, is not a “fringe” publication, and Ben Shapiro is notable enough to have his own Wiki article. Also, quoting a noteworthy writer commenting directly on the topic at hand isn’t WP:SYNTH. Rather than randomly naming policies, you should try to articulate an argument supporting one or more of your contentions.

You did make a “due weight” argument, but it’s rooted in the erroneous belief that reception coverage is only about professional critics. As the MOS guideline says, "Sources that are regarded as reliable are professional film critics, though notable persons or experts connected to the topics covered by the film may also be cited.......To maintain a neutral point of view, it is recommended to quote a reasonable balance of these reviews.....Polls of the public carried out by a reliable source in an accredited manner, such as CinemaScore, may be used." Clearly there's no mandate that reception sections only reflect the views of professional critics, much less in the case of political documentaries. In this case the total reception to the film has been overwhelmingly positive. Even if one did grant the erroneous due weight argument, you're operating from the misguided premise that completely deleting the commentary is better than simply increasing the negative quotes. NPOV does require us to cover all aspects of an issue accurately, and omitting conservative complaints about film critics' liberal bias, and even any mention of the negative reviewer's admitted politics, fails to do that. VictorD7 (talk) 04:30, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Popularity does not make something not fringe. Notability does not make something not fringe. VDare has an article. The Westboro Baptist Church has an article. Should we quote their film reviews as well?

Obviously you did not read my due weight argument because it has nothing to do with limiting reception coverage to only professional critics. It has to do with you favoring a paragraph devoted to a single fringe nonprofessional critic that is larger than the paragraphs devoted to a combined description of the views of all professional critics.

NPOV does not require us to document fringe viewpoints. It does not require us to note the politician orientation of one particular critic that you wish to highlight. If you wish to expand the section to eliminate UNDUE issues, go for it, but don't expect other editors to leave an UNDUE violation in the article while waiting for you to do so. Gamaliel (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You have yet to provide an argument why the source supposedly is fringe. You disliking its politics doesn't qualify as a reason. Breitbart has millions of readers, is one of the highest trafficked news sites in the world, and broadly reflects the ideology of half of the American political spectrum. The WBC, by contrast, has about one or two dozen members. No comparison.

Ben Shapiro actually is a professional critic (among other things), but that's beside the point. Commenting on the reception itself falls into a different category than commenting on the film per se, and his view is certainly widely held enough for it to merit inclusion. The due weight argument (which I did read) collapses. Apart from that, the vast majority of the reception has been positive anyway, as proved by the CinemaScore grade. Even if he was just commenting positively on the film itself, "UNDUE" charges would have no basis. VictorD7 (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

What you want is WP:OR. You think the reviews are biased because they are negative. That might be the case. But we don't add it to the article because you say so. The article should remain consistent with other movies and film reviews form notable film reviewers should be reflected in the same way.Casprings (talk) 04:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

<Insert>Quoting directly from a source isn't WP:OR. It's the opposite. Please read the policy pages before citing them. VictorD7 (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The examples of VDARE and Westboro are straw man arguments. They are not providing film reviews or political commentary about the film. If they had, it would be proper to omit them from the article. This debate is about Breitbart.com and the weight that should be given to it. Now Victor wants to expand the "critics section", but that won't work because the film itself is contentious. The best course of action is to present the aggregator data plus 2 representative reviews, pro & con. And then we develop a section that covers what the political commentators have said, along with the impact that the film has had in the general public. – S. Rich (talk) 04:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Saying someone is a "liberal" and basing that on a review of another movie is certainly WP:OR. There is no source that says he is reviewing this movie as a liberal or a secondary source that is WP:RS that suggests his reviews are slanted towards the left. Sorry.Casprings (talk) 05:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

No, a direct, attributed quote from a source is never OR, by definition. Furthermore, multiple sources are used to support different parts of the same sentence all the time. That's not necessarily a violation of any policy. In this case PS's political affiliation is relevant since he's commenting on an explicitly political film. Either way though it has nothing to do with OR. VictorD7 (talk) 05:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

providing equal balance to each "side" in the form of an equal number of reviews would be an UNDUE violation since he critical response has been overwhelmingly negative. Gamaliel (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Except that the audience reception was overwhelmingly positive, and the guidelines I cited above specifically mentioned CinemaScore (among other non pro film critics) as acceptable sources in critical reception sections. Therefore having a representative negative quote and a quote reflecting the positive reaction would not be undue. VictorD7 (talk) 05:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, and there are obvious political dynamics to recognize. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 08:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

This argument makes little sense. Critical and audience reaction are two separate things, just look at any Michael Bay film. A positive audience reaction does not require us to misrepresent the nature of the critical reaction by creating a false balance. The allegedly positive audience reaction is already represented by the CinemaScore, which really only tells us that the relatively small audience for a niche political film is predisposed to like a niche political film in any case. Gamaliel (talk) 12:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Indeed the phenomenon of positive or promotional reception among small self-selected groups is a common marker among fringe persons, theories and publications. As WP editors we should be able to recognize this for what it is and not "cut the baby in half" by pretending that these views are equally as valid as the clear mainstream/majority view. SPECIFICO talk 13:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually the MOS guideline includes "Audience response" as a subsection of the "Critical response" section. The definition of critical reception is left intentionally flexible, so, again, there's absolutely nothing in policy supporting what you say. Regarding SPECIFICO'S comment, the MOS's specific endorsement of CinemaScore renders arguing against it futile even if you weren't ignoring the fact that an A+ score tells us a lot due to its historical rarity. If you're claiming we should ignore the obvious political dynamic involved, including overt, one sided bias by professional film critics (or at least the widespread, noteworthy perception of such bias), then please refrain from talking about pretense or "recogniz(ing) this for what it is". VictorD7 (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Gamaliel and SPECIFICO -- there was an UNDUE focus in this section on pundits' reactions to the critics' reviews. The article should stick to reviews of the film itself, not reviews of the reviews. Adding commentary from conservative critics would be appropriate; attacking the existing critics' reviews based on their perceived politics is not. Krychek (talk) 16:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Your position has no basis in policy, and amounts to "I don't like it". Movie articles routinely cover noteworthy aspects of a film or its reception that transcend merely citing professional film critics' evaluations of the movie. The political component is relevant here because it's an explicitly political movie, the reviews themselves are overtly political, and the sentiment articulated by Shapiro (a notable writer/editor) is very widely held. Such phenomena merit mention in these articles. Purging any mention of the significant viewpoint clearly violates NPOV. VictorD7 (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

If tens or hundreds of millions of earthlings flocked to see the film, you might be on solid ground. From everything we know however, the film and its fans are fringe. SPECIFICO talk 16:57, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

It's already the 7th highest grossing political documentary of all time, and the film and its fans are well rooted in the mainstream. The pertinent point here, however, is that professional film critics are extremely monolithic and unrepresentative of the general population in political ideology, which unavoidably has bearing on the subjective reception of political documentaries. Our mandate is to honestly cover the issue, not try to hide a huge portion of it. VictorD7 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

That statement rejects the views of mainstream professional film critics. That is contrary to our mission here. You have no data as to the sample of the public who rated the film and no basis for the view that its fans are rooted in the mainstream. That is OR, SPECIFICO talk 17:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

You're the one making statements you can't back up (like "fringe"). As I've proved with MOS quotes above, "Reception" isn't limited to "professional film critics", so their views alone aren't necessarily authoritative. CinemaScore is explicitly endorsed by Misplaced Pages guidelines for use in these articles, and their survey methods are widely respected. You've provided no policy based reason for excluding a noteworthy, significant viewpoint relating to this film, and certainly no general ethical one. The honest thing to do is cover the widely held view. Intentionally misleading readers through significant omission is contrary to our purpose here. VictorD7 (talk) 17:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Your view appears to be in the minority on this thread. SPECIFICO talk 17:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

That's not an argument. WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Besides, numerous other editors have made points similar to mine elsewhere on this page and in the NPOVN discussion. Others even started a section complaining about the article's lack of neutrality a couple of weeks ago.

Also, point of order: I'll note that some issues are getting conflated since you replied to different posts discussing different things. The issue of whether to add a positive review of the film itself to what's now the "Critical response" section is different than the issue of adding Shapiro's comment on the reception to the new "Other responses" section. That the latter includes quotes from a journalist and one of the producers underscores the absurdity of basing one's rejection of the Shapiro quote on professional film critics' opinions. It's not even clear the critics would dispute Shapiro, at least his assertion that they're overwhelmingly left wing and that this impacts their commentary (presumably they'd say their opinions are worthwhile anyway). The reviews cited on RM are overtly political. VictorD7 (talk) 18:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The Blaze

I've again removed this material from the article. The Blaze is a fringe, partisan media outlet which has no reputation for factchecking or accuracy, instead it has a reputation for pushing lunatic conspiracy theories. The author of the cited Blaze article is does not appear to have any credentials as a film critic or even a journalist. All the other articles by him on the Blaze are political. As a result, the author is not an appropriate source for factual claims regarding the history of film. Readers who want context about the CinemaScope rating can visit the article on that topic, we don't need to cite a fringe partisan source on a matter which it has no known expertise. Contrary to VictorD7's assertion, it is incumbent upon him to establish a consensus among editors that this material is appropriate for an encyclopedia article, it is not incumbent upon other editors to convince him personally that material he wants to insert is inappropriate. Gamaliel (talk) 01:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

There was a defacto consensus for it. The only one reverting it is you. You don't understand "fringe" policy. Leaving aside your garbage claims about The Blaze (an opinionated news/opinion site, like The Huffington Post and the various blogs and highly politicized "reviews" currently being cited by this article), "fringe" doesn't apply when the facts in the segment are confirmed via multiple sources and are undisputed. You've presented nothing even approaching a legitimate, non nakedly POV pushing rationale for your multiple reversions. VictorD7 (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

A "defacto consensus"? Can you link me to this policy? Because what it seems to me that you are actually saying is that "Nobody disagreed with me before, so my edits should stay in the article until you convince me to agree with you." That's not how it works. You boldly included the information in the article. You tried to improve Misplaced Pages, good work. But now the material is disputed under multiple Misplaced Pages policies. You can't just loudly harangue other editors, declare victory, and reinsert the material. You have to discuss it. Very little of what you've done on this page is actual discussion, just loud declarations of the correctness of your point of view. Please try to engage the actual objections to this material. Instead of just declaring your correctness, can you explain it? For example, can you explain why, specifically, you think The Blaze a reliable source for claims about the audience ratings of films, or anything at all? Does The Blaze have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" as required by policy? Do they or the author of the piece have any known credentials or expertise? If yes, can you document any of this? Gamaliel (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually the segment you reverted was crafted by multiple editors over a period of time and doesn't represent my ideal wording, as my edit summary indicated. Yes, that reflects consensus. Most of the rest of your post is projection. I'm the one discussing what actual policy is here, while you're simply shouting it repeatedly and erroneously. Sidestepping your general attacks on that source, since reliable sourcing is determined on a case by case basis depending on how it's being used in that particular context (sources aren't prohibited or endorsed across the board for Misplaced Pages use/non use), can you identify specifically any facts presented in the segment that are disputed or dubious? VictorD7 (talk) 19:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Those multiple editors are subject to the same process as I described above. If they wish to include this disputed material, they can discuss the material here and establish that it meets policy requirements. The onus is on those who wish to include the material, and to date, no one, including yourself, has made any actual policy-based arguments for inclusion beyond your repeated but unsupported declaration that policy requirements have been met. In regards to the accuracy of the facts presented by The Blaze, I refer you to comments above by myself and User:SPECIFICO. Gamaliel (talk) 20:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

So you can't name anything in the segment that's actually disputed or dubious? That's what I thought. VictorD7 (talk) 21:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm I just did. Gamaliel (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

No you didn't. Name something specific from the segment in question that's allegedly in dispute. VictorD7 (talk) 22:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Scroll up to the comments previously mentioned. Gamaliel (talk) 22:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Now you're vandalizing the talk page with space consuming drawings. I've read the discussion. Nothing from the segment has been singled out as in dispute. The facts are unchallenged. VictorD7 (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

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