| Revision as of 12:20, 25 July 2014 editGuy355 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users773 edits →The word Jew← Previous edit | Revision as of 12:23, 25 July 2014 edit undoThemainman69 (talk | contribs)53 edits →The word JewNext edit → | ||
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| Here, you wanted a source? Here it is. | Here, you wanted a source? Here it is. | ||
| <ref>http://books.google.com.au/books?id=VtAmmwapfVAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Biblical+peoples+and+ethnicity:+an+archaeological#v=onepage&q&f=false</ref> ] (]) 12:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | <ref>http://books.google.com.au/books?id=VtAmmwapfVAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Biblical+peoples+and+ethnicity:+an+archaeological#v=onepage&q&f=false</ref> ] (]) 12:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | ||
| No one cares about studies about the middle east, the other link is to the historical israelite page and one link is back to the same wiki page. Its obvious you go to lot of effort for your religious myth. Cite the study showing descent from the historical israelites then oh wait you would need their DNA which doesnt exist. Get over your religion before you fly a plane into a building for it. What page of that book? ] (]) 12:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
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The Word "Jew" Simply Means from the Tribe of Judah
The word Jew simply means from the tribe of Judah. The word Jew is directly derived from the word Judah. There were actually 12 tribes of Israel so technically if a person is descendant of one of these other tribes and not Judah they are not a Jew. Although they are all Israelites. The word Jewish means "Like a Jew". Someone can be called Jewish but not even be a blood Jew simply because they practice the ways of a Jew. The "ish" on the end of Jew turns it into an adjective that describes what someone is like but not actually what they are like. For instance a person can be called "devilish" because they are like a devil but not actually be the devil. I believe these facts should be added to the lead of the article. 2602:306:C518:6C40:DDC7:CB30:942:8FFE (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think we have the origin of the word "Jew" from "tribe of Yehudah" in the article. Debresser (talk) 17:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- Terms such as Jew and Jewish and others are often used in various ways, which is confusing for many. I shall start a new section related to this topic. And I do agree that some discussion about the confusion of terms is highly relevant to the article, and needs to be incorporated into it if it is not already. (I didn't check.) See my new section, to be added in a moment. Thanks for bringing this up. Misty MH (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Terms such as Jews, Jew, Jewish, and others
Terms such as Jews, Jew, Jewish, and others have been and are still used in ways that may be confusing for hearers and readers. This is significant to the topic and to the article. In common practice, these terms are used to mean many of the meanings listed below, depending on context of usage. This has been confusing to people for a long time, and sometimes still is. Some clear mention of this should be included in the article, if it has not been done already.
- I am writing most of this in reference to how I have perceived these terms to be used in the USA, as that is what I am most familiar with, and particularly near the NW coast.
- Because of confusion and uncertainty, a reader and listener may need to be thinking about which an author means: Race, Religion, Culture, Tribe (of Judah), or Other.
"Jew" vs. "Jewish" – As to usage in the USA today (NW coast):
- The term "Jew" often refers to a person's race, and seems to not be used as often in reference to the religion. In much of contemporary literature/writing, it may occasionally refer to a Tribe distinction – meaning, being from the Tribe of Judah and not another of the 12 Tribes – but that is more likely to occur when the topic of Tribes itself is being discussed. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel (more below).
- The term "Jews" is often used the same way as the term "Jew", but it depends on the user and the context.
- The term "Jewish" seems to regularly refer to either religion or race, depending on context. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel.
Other terms – As to usage in the USA today (NW coast):
- The term "Israel" is often used in the Bible in reference to the whole Nation, but sometimes as a distinction between the Kingdoms when they split into the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. It may be at times used interchangeably with other terms here. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel.
- The term "Israelite" is common but hasn't taken over the word "Jew" entirely in usage, especially in speech. It usually if not always refers to the Nation Israel or to Race. I have not seen it used in reference to religion. It may sound funny, but it may at times be also used in reference to the Nation of Israel, or to the people of the Nation of Israel.
- The Bible itself seems to use multiple terms; though, "Israelite" isn't one that I recall seeing in the English versions that I am most familiar with. I do not recall seeing it used much in reference to the Nation of Israel, but it may be.
- The term "Hebrew" seems to hardly ever be used in colloquial speech to refer to race or ethnicity. It is, however, sometimes used in this way in literature related to the topic, and in reference to the Bible.
- The terms "Jew" and "Jewish" are regularly used – in speech and in writing – to refer to many of the above. Even a single author or speaker may use the terms in multiple ways. This is not uncommon, and may help lead to confusion at times. Unless religion is specifically being discussed, these two terms may more often refer to race/ethnicity, or to the Nation of Israel, or to Culture (food, etc.); they seem to be seldom used to refer to someone as from the Tribe of Judah. In the Bible "New Testament", my recollection is that they are often used in reference to the people as a whole, or to a single person, or to the Nation of Israel, and on occasion used in reference to religion, depending on the English version being used.
- Usage of these various terms, of course, almost certainly depends on the region, the people using it, on various contexts, and on various purposes of use.
- Some of the terms here are used interchangeably; some might sound odd in certain contexts where usage is less common.
- Often a term that is being used can be understood by its context of usage. And I think that in this case, this may be one of the best ways to determine its intended meaning (other than by asking).
Other thoughts:
- I think that confusion over the usage of these terms added considerably to the ability of those promoting antisemitism etc. to succeed in their efforts. I see more consciousness of these issues being brought to the fore, but I don't see clear resolutions becoming prominent. Therefore, it seems a worthy topic to discuss and resolve in international affairs, and for the sake of all involved.
- I did not consult any usage references for this discussion here, or any experts for their opinions. If there are any mistakes herein, my apologies, as this was in large part based on my own observations – and on previous discussions – and was off the top of my head.
- How Jews themselves (of all types) wish to use these terms is worthy of research, and possibly worthy of a separate article on that topic (if one does not already exist).
- "Honor all" people!
Misty MH (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Misty MH (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
If you wish to add comments, please do so below, not above. Thanks! Misty MH (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Infobox pictures
I want to make a change to the top right box with pictures of famous Jews, and would like to note it here for all to see, and anyone to make suggestions.
I am using a list of 100 people from adherents.com, which itself cites "The Jewish 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Jews of all Time" (Citadel Press Book, 1994), written by Michael Shapiro, a composer from New York.
I will also make sure to check the wikipedia page of the linked person to make sure there are no mistakes.
I will use 4 columns and 5 rows, resulting in 20 choices, focusing on the most famous names.
As I am unable to make these changes, I was hoping someone who was able to could help.
The list I wish to use (suggestions welcome): 1) Jesus of Nazareth 2) Albert Einstein 3) Sigmund Freud 4) Karl Marx 5) Baruch de Spinoza 6) Maimonides 7) Niels Bohr 8) Benjamin Disraeli 9) Franz Kafka 10) David Ben-Gurion 11) Lenny Bruce 12) Michael Dell 13) Noam Chomsky 14) Scarlett Johansson 15) Jonas Salk 16) Henry Kissinger 17) Emma Goldman 18) Harry Houdini 19) Bob Dylan 20) Steven Spielberg
Haimson (talk) 00:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Update. I made the edit. Haimson (talk) 00:58, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Good-faith edit reverted. Layout and content of the infobox montage have been established by consensus. (Previous discussions on this page have been archived.) A new consensus would be required to adopt any of your proposed changes. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- It involves waiting patiently for responses and discussion to develop. I would not be optimistic about the outcome. Many of your choices were previously rejected, and the increased number of images as well. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
The word Jew
Looking for rebuttals to learn:
The word j e uu did not exist in english language until 300-400 years ago. Where did it come from and who created it? The word j e uu in the hebrew bible in the OT has been corrupted from Judahite or Judean it depends on the verse. In the NT the word j e uu is corrupted from Judean (maybe Judahite too).
The word j e uu (again which should be Judean or Judahite) does not appear until 10 books into the hebrew bible long after Abraham Isaac Jacob and the head of all the 12 tribes and several generations after them are all dead. So why is this in the opening statement?
בני ישראל, Standard: Bnai Yisraʾel; Tiberian: Bnai Yiśrāʾēl; ISO 259-3: Bnai Yiśraʾel, translated as: "Children of Israel" or "Sons of Israel"
Get rid of that hebrew word and replace it with tribe of Judah (assuming you want to claim descent from him) because Israel was Jacob and he had 11 other sons other than Judah (because Judah is one of the words which has been corrupted to j e uu in the OT).
Please show me the unbroken genealogy going back 4000 years to Judah to back up your claim or it is pure ipse dixit with no citation.
And what is with this claim
Aristotle believed that the Jews came from India, where he said that they were known as the Kalani.
Which then links to Josephus?
Themainman69 (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews (excluding Yemenite Jews) all have a common genetic tie back to the pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian world roughly 2,500 years ago (that's when AJs and SJs diverged from MJs). The word Jew is indeed not very old, but neither is gay for homosexuals, words change. P.S just because Aristotle said that doesn't mean it's true. Guy355 (talk) 08:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that info where can i see the study? Yeh i know the link about Aristotle goes to Josephus page. For any 'jews' reading this do you claim descent only from Judah? Obv you would need Judahs DNA to confirm this or an unbroken genealogical record going back 4000 years both of which dont exist so maybe it should be emphasized it is part of judaism religions tradition (or religious myth if you will) to claim descent from such figure in the bible and is in no way 'provable'?
Themainman69 (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The only people who actually claim descent from the 12 tribes tend to be religious people, and they tend to believe things that have no proof to back it up. All I said is that Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews share a common ancestry in the middle east, and that these share genetic similarities with other pre Islamic east Mediterraneans/west Asians such as Druze, Samaritans, Armenians and Cypriots. Ashkenazi Jews also share genetic similarities with Maltese and Sicilians, European population with recent ties to the near east. Here are the links:
Guy355 (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Ok so you are ashkenazi ( i can show by logic where you came from in the bible but its not for this page i guess) do you claim descent from Jacob (Israel) or no? If no please change the hebrew word that says 'sons of Israel' as millions of people are misled by this claim. Themainman69 (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I'm ethnically Ashkenazi, doesn't mean that I'm an ultra religious Zionist who believes that all Jews descend from just 12 tribes, on the contrary, I'm an irreligious person, neutral to Zionism, who claims that the Israelites were in fact Canaanites who worshiped local Canaanite gods until the Babylonian captivity. I do know that Ashkenaz is believed to be the area of the Rhineland/Alsace region, although twas once thought to be Scythia and the northern coast of the black sea. Just because the bible says something however, it doesn't make it so. Rashi who was a Jewish rabbi in northern France during the 11th century, he was the first to call the Jews of the Rhineland/Alsace region Jews of Ashkenaz. Regardless, he never called them "natives", Jews of that region we're considered foreign by the state and heretics by the church, and by the time of the crusades were persecuted and forced to live in a Jewish quarter. Genetic studies show that Ashkenazi Jews share closest genetic similarities with Sephardi and north African Jews, and that they seem to share a common Middle eastern heritage, when it comes to non Jewish populations Ashkenazi Jews share closest genetic similarities with other pre Islamic east Mediterraneans/west Asians such as Cypriots, Druze, Armenians etc, with the only European populations close to them being Maltese and Sicilians who themselves have recent ties to the eastern Mediterranean. I showed you the sources, I hope you read them or will read them, for they just show the facts, if the facts would have shown that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically closest to Central Europeans such as Germans and Poles, it would have been obvious that Ashkenazi Jews don't have a recent connection to the Levant. Good examples for Jewish populations made up mainly of converts are Ethiopian Jews, Yemenite Jews, Indian Jews (from India) and Chinese Jews, all of them share closest genetic similarities with their host populations, although they do seem to have some ancient Levantine ancestry.
P.S Do I claim descent from Jacob? No, considering the fact that the patriarchs were mythical characters most likely, their historicity is highly unlikely, like the historicity of Hercules, the patriarchs are part of Jewish mythology, however many Jews relate to this mythology (unfortunately some don't admit it's not true) and see themselves as the "children of Israel", so what if they see themselves this way? It's part of their tradition, just like the Romans believed themselves to be descended from Hercules, so did the Spartans. Guy355 (talk) 10:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Ok i am changing the lede statement from " originating from the Israelites" to something like " it is a part of judaic tradition to claim descent from the israelites'. You say your are irreligious and then you cite a rabbi, so your religion is judaism (phariseeism). How is it that jews know history so well? The talmud? You have kept the christians in the dark of pre BC history i guess because you dont want them to realise how real the bible really is and the whole Jesus was an imposter stuff. Themainman69 (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It's not just a claim, genetically speaking it seems highly likely. I am irreligious, it doesn't mean I can't cite people from the middle ages, back then almost everyone was religious. No I have no religion.
It's not that Jews know history so well, it's that some Jews recorded things that were going on. We have kept the Christians in the dark? LOL, no... We don't want people to realise the bible is true history? Mate, the Jews wrote the old testament, most religious Jews still take it seriously, it were archaeologists and historians that realised there's no cutting evidence for many of the bible story. I'm not saying Jesus was a fraud, there's just no cutting evidence he rose from the dead, and the only records about him come from after his death. Guy355 (talk) 11:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The torah which your race is oh so fond of was written by Moses the levite and does not contain the word Judahite or Judean once (which has been corrupted to jew in english bibles) you need to get your definitions of israelites and judeans/Judahites correct. Im not doubting the middle eastern origin of 'jews' just the ipse dixit claim of descending from the bible israelites (which you claim are a myth and yet still want to claim descent from them based on your re edit of my edit LOL). Themainman69 (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
You can't change sourced information, the Middle eastern heritage of most Jews is backed up by evidence, genetic, archaeological, historical etc. In fact, the lack of records from external biblical sources for many stories in the bible i.e the Exodus, the patriarchs etc makes these stories unlikely to be true. And no, I'll repeat, just because I source a Jewish rabbi doesn't mean I'm religiously Jewish, most people back then were religious, and that rabbi didn't claim anything, he just called those Jews the Jews of Ashkenaz. ... The Torah is made up of the first 5 books of the bible or the first 5 books of the old Testament, without that you have no Judaism or Christianity. Jews aren't a race, we're a nation, an ethnoreligious group, a religion and an ethnicity, but not a race, some are made up of converts, some from the ancient Israelites. The Torah wasn't written by Moses, there's no evidence Moses ever existed, it was put together during the Babylonian captivity in order to establish Monotheism and the worship of Yahweh alone. Listen, the bible doesn't have to be true, people who wrote it had an agenda, it's archaeology , genetics etc that makes the Middle eastern origin of most Jews plausible. Some things that are written in the bible are true, some aren't, the Israelites did exist, they were a Canaanite Polytheistic people until the Babylonian exile when they became Monotheistic, when they became Jews. the fact that most Jews share a common ancestry in the Middle east around 2,500 years ago makes the Israelite origin plausible, however the stories of the Exodus are unlikely, instead of coming from Egypt, the Israelites were a native Canaanite people. Guy355 (talk) 11:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Just because the Romans claimed descent from a mythical character, doesn't mean the Romans didn't exist. The same case for Jews, Greeks, Japanese etc. Guy355 (talk) 11:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It's like asking the Greeks to claim they have the same DNA of Hercules, Jacob was a mythical character, part of Israelite mythology, stop mixing biblical Israelites with historical Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you going to ask the Greeks to prove their descent of the ancient Greeks? What about asking the Chinese to prove their link to the ancient Chinese? In all these cases genetic studies show these populations came from the region of their ancient ancestors. Guy355 (talk) 11:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
And there is a link between modern Jews and the Israelites, Hebrew is a Canaanite language, Judaism still has some remains from the Israelite Mosaic religion. Guy355 (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I see you have no regard for truth nor wikipedias verifiability standard. I will report you next re edit. I have a duty as a wiki editor to keep religious nuts like you from claiming your religious myths/traditions as historical facts when there is 0 verifiable proof for them. Themainman69 (talk) 11:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I'M NOT BLOODY RELIGIOUS!!!!!!! Please separate the biblical Israelites from the historical ones! I'll add sources. Guy355 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Sir/Ma'am it seems like you don't have any regards for archaeology and genetics. Guy355 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
FYI I already reported you for POV pushing and removal of sourced information. Guy355 (talk) 11:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no mention of the israelites in the 2 literatures you cited and the other wiki page with the section on israelites has a link for a citation which is back to the same wiki page. There is no citations for your ipse dixit fallacy claim of descent from Jacob. Editors we have a judaism religious nut here claiming his religions myths as facts and violating wikis verifiability and citation rules. Why is this so important to your religion? I am changing it back. Themainman69 (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
But descending from Jacob has nothing to do with the Israelites, Jacob was a mythical character. I'm not religious, I'm looking at the facts. Guy355 (talk) 11:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I placed sources for genetic studies showing the common Middle eastern ancestry of Jews, and the Misplaced Pages link is related to the HISTORICAL Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I told you, I'm not religious, however genetic, archaeological and linguistic evidence suggests a descent from the Israelites, and NOT FROM THE PATRIARCHS, who are mythical characters created by the Israelites. Guy355 (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The fact that most Jews share genetic ties, that most Jewish Cohens as well as some Palestinians have genetic ties, suggests a pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian origin, which is probably Israelite considering the historical, linguistic and cultural connection to them. Guy355 (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The 3 literature studies make no mention of the israelites (no one cares about the middle east descent its your ipse dixit religious myth about Jacob that violates wikis rules) and the wiki link citation goes back to the wiki page (original research verifiability citation you are violating all 3).
LOL you cant have ISRAEL-ites (defined by descending from Jacob renamed Israel) with out JACOB.Themainman69 (talk) 12:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
YES YOU CAN, because the mention of Israel existed BEFORE Jacob was ever mentioned as a mythical character. Guy355 (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The name Israel first appears c. 1209 BCE, in an inscription of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah. The inscription is very brief and says simply: "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not". Jacob was probably created around the Iron age, long afterwards. Guy355 (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The Israelites CAME from the Middle east, they came from there, the studies aren't about bloody literature they're about genetics, and they talk about the common ties most Jews share and they're orientation to the near east, and WHO DID THEY SHARE TIES WITH FROM THAT REGION? The Israelites. Just because some things written about the Israelites are mythical, doesn't bloody well mean it's all mythical. Guy355 (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
How many times am I supposed to tell you I'm not religious? These studies talk about connections to the Middle east, and the population that most Jews claim descent from are the Israelites, who came from the near east, this isn't about religion. Guy355 (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC) So from that one inscription you draw the religious interpretation that a group of people whom your religion calls the 'historical israelites' existed and you descended from them? Seperate your religious myth from VERIFIABILITY. There is not ONE mention of the israelites in those 3 literatures you cited. This isnt hard FIND A PRIMARY SOURCE AND CITE IT. Themainman69 (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you blind and deaf? Can't you see I say I'm irreligious? I took the sources that unfortunately aren't available on the internet, they're in books, AND they're on the page of historical Israelites, that's why I cited that. Guy355 (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, what luck, I found the link. Guy355 (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Here, you wanted a source? Here it is. Guy355 (talk) 12:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
No one cares about studies about the middle east, the other link is to the historical israelite page and one link is back to the same wiki page. Its obvious you go to lot of effort for your religious myth. Cite the study showing descent from the historical israelites then oh wait you would need their DNA which doesnt exist. Get over your religion before you fly a plane into a building for it. What page of that book? Themainman69 (talk) 12:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints
- http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf
- http://books.google.com.au/books?id=VtAmmwapfVAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Biblical+peoples+and+ethnicity:+an+archaeological#v=onepage&q&f=false
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