| Revision as of 17:21, 25 July 2014 editSCZenz (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,321 edits →Edit war on Alan Guth: ok, I really have noted your opinion.← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:40, 25 July 2014 edit undo0x0077BE (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,180 edits →Edit war on Alan GuthNext edit → | ||
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| ::I understand that, but I really don't think it will help. If this edit warring continues from ''both'' sides, the page will almost certainly be locked for a week or more. I honestly doubt that it will take that long to achieve a consensus, and when they lock pages, they don't pick whoever's version was best and revert it there first, they just lock it in whatever state it's in. 3RR is brightline, but has some fuzziness to it. If you continue to make edits to the page before achieving consensus, despite my ongoing warnings, an administrator would likely have cause to temporarily block both you ''and'' {{u|Holybeef}}. My focus on the process is for good reason - I want to depersonalize the discussion and my philosophy is something like "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". When no one's edit warring, we can resolve the content dispute without all this meta discussion about who was wrong and who was right in their behavior. I've been in exactly your position before and I saw that it got me nowhere, which is why I've been such a strong advocate of doing this right. ] ]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>] 17:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | ::I understand that, but I really don't think it will help. If this edit warring continues from ''both'' sides, the page will almost certainly be locked for a week or more. I honestly doubt that it will take that long to achieve a consensus, and when they lock pages, they don't pick whoever's version was best and revert it there first, they just lock it in whatever state it's in. 3RR is brightline, but has some fuzziness to it. If you continue to make edits to the page before achieving consensus, despite my ongoing warnings, an administrator would likely have cause to temporarily block both you ''and'' {{u|Holybeef}}. My focus on the process is for good reason - I want to depersonalize the discussion and my philosophy is something like "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". When no one's edit warring, we can resolve the content dispute without all this meta discussion about who was wrong and who was right in their behavior. I've been in exactly your position before and I saw that it got me nowhere, which is why I've been such a strong advocate of doing this right. ] ]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>] 17:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :::Misplaced Pages may have changed into fields of happy bunnies since I did lots of physics editing, but back then if multiple people restored a supported version against one person repeatedly reverting to a heavily-slanted version of the page, the admins took note of things like: what the talk page discussion had been, whether the statements made by different people were substantive or spurious, and so on. I think you are mistaken about the likely administrative view of this "edit war," and I think it is because you perhaps haven't considered the existing discussion carefully enough to realize just how slanted Holybeef's version is, and just how many times he or she has thrown spurious charges at editors trying to help until they shut up. Still, I think your slow and careful strategy will work eventually, and I don't want to make your life harder. Please do feel free to report me in any administrative context if you think my edits are inappropriate, but otherwise I ask you to think about whether you're adding anything useful by continuing to tell me that you don't like '''my''' strategy. Editing the page is allowed while content discussions are ongoing, and I do understand you prefer that it not happen; I won't push it, but I also won't promise to not touch the page until you're happy with the discussion. I do hope you will make contributions to the content discussion even despite our disagreement on the page-editing strategy. -- ] (]) 17:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | :::Misplaced Pages may have changed into fields of happy bunnies since I did lots of physics editing, but back then if multiple people restored a supported version against one person repeatedly reverting to a heavily-slanted version of the page, the admins took note of things like: what the talk page discussion had been, whether the statements made by different people were substantive or spurious, and so on. I think you are mistaken about the likely administrative view of this "edit war," and I think it is because you perhaps haven't considered the existing discussion carefully enough to realize just how slanted Holybeef's version is, and just how many times he or she has thrown spurious charges at editors trying to help until they shut up. Still, I think your slow and careful strategy will work eventually, and I don't want to make your life harder. Please do feel free to report me in any administrative context if you think my edits are inappropriate, but otherwise I ask you to think about whether you're adding anything useful by continuing to tell me that you don't like '''my''' strategy. Editing the page is allowed while content discussions are ongoing, and I do understand you prefer that it not happen; I won't push it, but I also won't promise to not touch the page until you're happy with the discussion. I do hope you will make contributions to the content discussion even despite our disagreement on the page-editing strategy. -- ] (]) 17:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Not editing the page during content disputes is obviously allowed, but the fact of the matter is that you're perilously close to violations of 3RR, and being right is no excuse. If you actually read ] you'll see that being right (or reverting to the consensus version) is ''not'' one of the acceptable exemptions. You'll also see that you don't need to hit 3 reversions to be in violation of the edit warring policy. I understand that you feel that the quality of the article is low with this in it. I don't understand your need to be the person who does the reversions. There's a clear proscription against it, and if you're really just implementing a consensus, there should be other editors around who have consented to the new version. Let them implement it. Keep in mind that ''everyone thinks they are right'', but one experiment to tell if you are actually enacting a consensus is to suggest that it's time to implement it and ''let someone else do it''. If that doesn't happen, it might mean your assessment is biased. ] ]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>] 17:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:40, 25 July 2014
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Alexandrov Ensemble
Hi. You have left an "according to whom?" notice on the above page, and I thought you might like an explanation. I should say first that I did not add the paragraph which you are questioning, and I am not happy about it being there (i.e. I support your edit).
So here is what I understand about the matter. I got the following information from current and former members of the Alexandrov Ensemble, via third parties. Since the 1950s when the Alexandrov Ensemble started touring non-Soviet countries, it has called itself the Red Army Choir outside the USSR/Russia for simplicity. Since 1989, another large but somewhat different group which had been founded later then the Ensemble started to call itself the Red Army Choir outside Russia. The problem was that the worldwide public frequently thought that the two choirs were the same, and various problems occurred, including concerns about competition. During the past 12 months there has been a court case about this in Moscow. People in Moscow tell me that the results of these cases are often not publicised. I think that the case has ended, but have not yet found anyone who knows the result. The only clue that I have seen is that someone has been making uncited edits about the use of the title "Red Army Choir" in WP articles connected with the Ensemble. All I have written here is hearsay, so I am not in a position to remove or correct those edits, although I am not happy about them. I hope that helps. --Storye book (talk) 16:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. I think the point is that assertions that can't be sourced should be, at minimum, flagged - and in some cases it's best to simply remove them. Misplaced Pages doesn't need to be in the business of claiming to give a comprehensive list of "official" Red Army Choirs at all, and it really can't be if there's no reliable source for such a thing. In any case, I'm happy to leave the "according to whom" tag up for the time being and see if someone can fill it in. Cheers, SCZenz (talk) 13:40, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm entirely in agreement with that. Cheers. --Storye book (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
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Edit war on Alan Guth
Even though I think you've been broadly doing the right thing on the Alan Guth page, as I said when I first arrived there, I really, really don't think you should continue to revert or edit the page until we've worked out a consensus. This is your 3rd reversion and it's very clear there's an ongoing dispute. It doesn't matter whose version is up there right now. What's important is building consensus. Honestly, given that you were at 2R and are now at 3R, it's probably best for you to avoid editing the article entirely until the dispute is resolved. There are clearly a number of people looking at the page and discussing it in the talk page. There is no reason for you to be the one to make the edits personally, and if you refrain it will leave you above reproach. 0x0077BE 16:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- @0x0077BE: I disagree with your focus on process to the exclusion of the current content of pages. I also think there's a clear difference between restoring a compromise version - an edit that clearly had support from other users - and restoring the version I previously preferred. Nevertheless, thank you for your attention and hard work on this matter. -- SCZenz (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- I understand that, but I really don't think it will help. If this edit warring continues from both sides, the page will almost certainly be locked for a week or more. I honestly doubt that it will take that long to achieve a consensus, and when they lock pages, they don't pick whoever's version was best and revert it there first, they just lock it in whatever state it's in. 3RR is brightline, but has some fuzziness to it. If you continue to make edits to the page before achieving consensus, despite my ongoing warnings, an administrator would likely have cause to temporarily block both you and Holybeef. My focus on the process is for good reason - I want to depersonalize the discussion and my philosophy is something like "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". When no one's edit warring, we can resolve the content dispute without all this meta discussion about who was wrong and who was right in their behavior. I've been in exactly your position before and I saw that it got me nowhere, which is why I've been such a strong advocate of doing this right. 0x0077BE 17:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages may have changed into fields of happy bunnies since I did lots of physics editing, but back then if multiple people restored a supported version against one person repeatedly reverting to a heavily-slanted version of the page, the admins took note of things like: what the talk page discussion had been, whether the statements made by different people were substantive or spurious, and so on. I think you are mistaken about the likely administrative view of this "edit war," and I think it is because you perhaps haven't considered the existing discussion carefully enough to realize just how slanted Holybeef's version is, and just how many times he or she has thrown spurious charges at editors trying to help until they shut up. Still, I think your slow and careful strategy will work eventually, and I don't want to make your life harder. Please do feel free to report me in any administrative context if you think my edits are inappropriate, but otherwise I ask you to think about whether you're adding anything useful by continuing to tell me that you don't like my strategy. Editing the page is allowed while content discussions are ongoing, and I do understand you prefer that it not happen; I won't push it, but I also won't promise to not touch the page until you're happy with the discussion. I do hope you will make contributions to the content discussion even despite our disagreement on the page-editing strategy. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Not editing the page during content disputes is obviously allowed, but the fact of the matter is that you're perilously close to violations of 3RR, and being right is no excuse. If you actually read WP:3RR you'll see that being right (or reverting to the consensus version) is not one of the acceptable exemptions. You'll also see that you don't need to hit 3 reversions to be in violation of the edit warring policy. I understand that you feel that the quality of the article is low with this in it. I don't understand your need to be the person who does the reversions. There's a clear proscription against it, and if you're really just implementing a consensus, there should be other editors around who have consented to the new version. Let them implement it. Keep in mind that everyone thinks they are right, but one experiment to tell if you are actually enacting a consensus is to suggest that it's time to implement it and let someone else do it. If that doesn't happen, it might mean your assessment is biased. 0x0077BE 17:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages may have changed into fields of happy bunnies since I did lots of physics editing, but back then if multiple people restored a supported version against one person repeatedly reverting to a heavily-slanted version of the page, the admins took note of things like: what the talk page discussion had been, whether the statements made by different people were substantive or spurious, and so on. I think you are mistaken about the likely administrative view of this "edit war," and I think it is because you perhaps haven't considered the existing discussion carefully enough to realize just how slanted Holybeef's version is, and just how many times he or she has thrown spurious charges at editors trying to help until they shut up. Still, I think your slow and careful strategy will work eventually, and I don't want to make your life harder. Please do feel free to report me in any administrative context if you think my edits are inappropriate, but otherwise I ask you to think about whether you're adding anything useful by continuing to tell me that you don't like my strategy. Editing the page is allowed while content discussions are ongoing, and I do understand you prefer that it not happen; I won't push it, but I also won't promise to not touch the page until you're happy with the discussion. I do hope you will make contributions to the content discussion even despite our disagreement on the page-editing strategy. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- I understand that, but I really don't think it will help. If this edit warring continues from both sides, the page will almost certainly be locked for a week or more. I honestly doubt that it will take that long to achieve a consensus, and when they lock pages, they don't pick whoever's version was best and revert it there first, they just lock it in whatever state it's in. 3RR is brightline, but has some fuzziness to it. If you continue to make edits to the page before achieving consensus, despite my ongoing warnings, an administrator would likely have cause to temporarily block both you and Holybeef. My focus on the process is for good reason - I want to depersonalize the discussion and my philosophy is something like "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". When no one's edit warring, we can resolve the content dispute without all this meta discussion about who was wrong and who was right in their behavior. I've been in exactly your position before and I saw that it got me nowhere, which is why I've been such a strong advocate of doing this right. 0x0077BE 17:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)