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Argentine and the Secret Treaty of 1873

The article says nothings about the Argentina and the secret offenssive pact

Crisis/War

Hi Cloudac,

The war didn't began on 14 February. In fact the city of Antofagasta was populated 95% by Chileans and there are sources that confirm the celebrations in the streets of Antofagasta. If you want to mark the beginning of the war, I propose the day of the Bolivian Declaration of war on Chile. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 17:59, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

History books in Spanish and English says war started when our army invaded Antofagasta. Why you claim opposite?

Evidence: In book "Bolivia y Chile: desatando nudos" the author writes (page 66) that "La invasion chilena de Antofagasta producida el 14 de febrero de 1879 dio inicio a la Guerra del Pacifico."

This translates as War of the Pacific started in February 14, 1879, when we invade Bolivia. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

This again evidence of bias editing. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The Secret Treaty

Hi Cloudac,

why did you delete that the treaty was secret?. Wasn't?. Take a look to the discussion about some time ago. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 17:59, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Escaped, began-sharpened, Chilean Tax?

I made some changes regarding the wording of the article and I hope to meet the WP standards:

• Escaped: The Chilean Version of this fight was that they won the battle, so to say they "escaped" from the Peruvians ships is in any case a Peruvian view. I think the word "fought" is more neutral.
• The crisis began with the approbation of the 10 cents tax by the Bolivian Congress, or before as the Boundary Treaty was signed. In any case not with the occupation of Antofagasta. I use the term "sharpened".
• To say that the Chileans protested because the Chileans imposed a 10 cents tax is stupid. It was a Bolivian tax, imposed by the Bolivian Government and approved by Bolivian Congress.

--Best regards, KS (wat?) 16:22, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Everyone with education in Chile knows Antofagasta was run by Chileans. Why you call that "stupid"? The only protest was from the salitrera company, not the Chileans in Antofagasta. Once our national army made it to city everyone cheered, but before only salitera company was making trouble. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Depression

Hello Dentren,

I disagree your insertion of text and this because of following reasons:

1. Undue weight: You should know that the causes of the war are a controversial issue. As W. Sater states, the war could has had different causes, political, geopolitical, domestic policies in the three countries, but also economical reasons. To present the economical reason in such a overwhelming manner as you do, is a partial view of the facts and suggests the reader that the economical reasons where the only one. This is also the case of your addition of the template {{economic history of Chile}}
2. WP:Verifiability : You cite "Palma, Gabriel. Trying to 'Tax and Spend' Oneself out of the 'Dutch Disease': The Chilean Economy from the War of the Pacific to the Great Depression. p. 217-240" at least ten times in the subsection. But in the whole Internet we find neither the text you cited nor a reference or cite to this source. If this text exists, I hope for you that it exists, it is irrelevant because it is not mentioned or edited or cited somewhere. (The only hits founded are from Misplaced Pages and we will not accept that an Misplaced Pages article cites another Misplaced Pages article as reliable source. Should we?)
3. Partial interpretation of facts Your text addition doesn't consider the economic situation in Bolivia, that at least, triggered the war, the imposition of the ten cents over the saltpeter exports. Bolivia suffered also a economic depression but you "forget" it and use more as the half of the inserted text to explain the Chilean economic depression.
4. Abuse of Primary Sources : We don't know in which context President Anibal Pinto said the cited sentence. Wanted he to impress his political adversaries in order to obtain support for his policies in parlament?, Did he meant an hypothetical case?, Wanted he to frighten the Peruvians?. We don't know, but fact is that the cite support your intention to put the Chilean economic crisis as the mayor cause of the war. Misplaced Pages asks you to: Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.

I may remember you that there are two excellent books in English language about the War of the Pacific ("Andean Tragedy" of W. Sater and "The Ten Cents War" of Farcau, Bruce W.) and that they have set exacting requirements for the choice of reliable sources.I would suggest you look into the cited books instead of fringe theories in unknown papers.

--Best regards, KS (wat?) 16:01, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

1. "You should know that the causes of the war are a controversial issue." I know as you also knows. That is why it is important ot give a full background overview, including economic, political and social motifs involved. Regarding the template I see no problem in removing it, albeit it will reduce the possibilities for the readers to go other articles of interest.

2. The paper do exist. Take a look over here

3. The incompletedness of information is no reason to remove content. The sources added are those found available, if you wish to complement them with information about Bolivia feel free to improve.

4. Yes we do know the context, the sources says clearly it is in 1878 in regard to the Long depression in Chile.

Dentren | 16:29, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

1. to give a full background overview, including economic, political and social motifs involved that is what your insert doesn't do. It present only the possible economics reasons of the war, and of these it stresses the Chilean crisis. Your insert has 352 words, but only 129 words are related to the situation in Peru and none to the situuation in Bolivia. Moreover your eye-catcher {{economic history of Chile}} presented the causes of the war as a Chilean problem, of course, I will delete it with your approve.

2. Thanks for the link.

3. I will add a {{Missing information}} at the right places and add the information later

4. WP recommends not to abuse of primary sources. I will delete it.

Please, keep this article in your watchlist, I would like know your opinion regarding some changes I prepared for this article. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 19:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Corrections on 13 July

Hi Dentren,

I made some changes and I want to explain you the reasons:

1. ) The name of the company was "Compañía de Salitres y Ferrocarril de Antofagasta" (CSFA) and the persistent use of the English name leads to the presupposition that it was a British company. It was not.
2. ) A big part of the tensions in the region were due to the Peruvian economy problems and their grasp for the monopoly of Salpeter. I added this to the LEDE with the respective reference to the Peruvian source.
3. ) The Chilean occupation of Antofagasta occurred after the CONFISCATION of the CSFA and not a threat of confiscation. Moreover, 14 February was the date of the auction.
4. ) I moved, complete and unchanged, the paragraph "Bolivia and Chile disputed the Atacama region. Claiming territory acc ..." to the subsection "Treaty 1866"
5. ) The Secret Treaty was secret and it must be said. To call it only a Mutual defence treaty is POV.
6. ) I renamed the subsection "crisis" to "10 cents tax" because it is only a part of the history and it is not the "complete" crisis. I added a lot of interesting data from Querejazu and Peruvians historians. Somewhere get down the story of the Junta Municipal, but it isn't important because their proposal of the 10 cents tax was continued in La Paz with another argument, the no-approval of the license by the B. Congress. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 18:13, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Corrections 15 July

Hi Dentren,

I made some changes and I want to explain you the reasons:

1. ) From 5 April to middle August (Capture of the Huascar) are 4.5 Months. That is far of one year.
2. ) I moved all the sentences about the Peruvian Monopoly in the resp. new subsection.

The other changes are obvious. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 20:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Dubious sources

Hi Dentren,

As I pointed out some time ago, the use of primary sources (Cáceres, Andrés. "Memorias de la guerra del 79") or "patriotic books" ("El expansionismo de Chile en el Cono Sur", "Historia del patriotismo, valor y heroнsmo de la Naciуn peruana en la guerra") is not supported by Misplaced Pages. I hope you can provide reliable sources for this extreme views. I add again the tag, that had been deleted without discussion. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 12:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Darkness Shines. Diego Barros Arana is also "primary source" with extreme patriotic views. Why user:keysanger use that (2 books in bibliography) and demand others ("I hope you can provide") to do opposite thing for Peru? This an example of biased editing. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Barros Arana is cited at 96 with Spanish language: "Cuando el enemigo ha tomado posesión efectiva de una parte del territorio, el gobierno del otro estado deja de ejercer alli el poder. Los habitantes del territorio ocupado están eximidos de todos los deberes i obligaciones respecto del gobierno anterior, i están obligados a obedecer a los jefes del ejército de ocupación"

This translates as a justifying death threats and war crimes. How is this good "no patrotic" source? Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Keysanger, I seem to recall at that time why you felt these sources were of no use, yet at the same time you were pushing the use of nationalist books which supported your POV. Perhaps you could explain this now? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Anti-peru edits by the user:keysanger

Seeing many new edits by the user "keysanger" reflect a bad article manipulation that are meant to be anti-peru. This user has an agenda with bias editing that is against peru. Mr Wales & Misplaced Pages staff, please make appropriate corrections. I have page now in "User:Eduardo Eddy Ramirez"

Which, what, where, why, who, when?. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 07:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I explain below which where who when what whatever. "Best regards" Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I deleted this post previously because there were serious accusations about personal behavior on a fellow editor that lacked evidence (according to WP:WIAPA the post constitutes a Personal Attack). Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. The user that posted the accusations seems to be new with wiki so I would encourage that user to follow up on this link WP:WIAPA. If the user can't provide any evidence I would encourage keysanger to delete the post ASAP and possibly speak to a wikipedia administrator (not Mr. Wales) if the post is continually being reverted back. I got nothing more to say.

I provide serious evidence very pronto. No worry on that. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Evidence bias edits by user:keysanger and user:sietecolores

User:Darkness Shines I look back article history and see many bad biased edits. I list them here for all eyes:

1. On May 16, 2014 (): Sietecolores deletes massive source text in the consequences section. Information deleted is my country's return stolen books to Peru, my country rise in influence and help to Peru rival Ecuador, the anti-indigenous response in Peru, and information about famous Peruvian Miguel Grau. Terrible edit removes over 6,000 kb of value information.
2. On May 25, 2014 (): Keysanger manipulates text to remove war begins when my country invades Antofagasta.
3. On May 27, 2014 (): Keysanger repeats same bad edit.
4. On June 2, 2014 (): Keysanger rewords lede information, but again manipulates text because article says something else: "On March 24, Peru responded to Chile and Bolivia by proposing that the Peruvian Congress debate both Chile's neutrality proposal and the Bolivian request for military action under the alliance on April 24" (that no says Peru refuses anything)
5. On June 9, 2014 (): Keysanger removes Peru and Bolivia commanders from summary box at top.
6. On June 9, 2014 (): Keysanger removes text on Chile economic troubles. Why? This is true and sourced. Educated people in Chile know the history.
7. On June 18, 2014 (): Keysanger again manipulates text. Antofagasta was filled with people from my country, many workers, and they also ran government in city. Why delete this text?
8. On June 18, 2014 (): Keysanger removes text on rescue of Chile sailors by Peru Miguel Grau, and deletes my country's national hero Arturo Prat from text.
9. On July 8, 2014 (): Keysanger shows anger at restoration of deleted text by User:Dentren and tags in retaliation. How this friendly atmosphere editing?
10. On July 11, 2014 (): Editor 210.50.244.119 deletes text writing true cause of war was my country's economic problems and ambition. This topic discussed much in my class in Universidad de Chile, but still relevant
11. From July 11 up to 20, 2014 (): Includes text manipulation like "As unenviable Chile’s situation was, that of Peru was much worse"
12. On July 18, 2014 (): Editor 210.50.244.119 removes text on the racial supremacy ideology in Chile. This is very big issue in my country even to this day.

All this shows article manipulation to reflect anti-Peru and anti-Bolivia text. This bad editing needs correction, and users mentioned need to be removed from participation in article. Gracias Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 18:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

And I find this only going two pages back in article history. I only imagine how long this has been happening??? Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I look back more and also find this edit () where User:Cloudaoc fixes bad text that (surprise!) Keysanger wrote in article. Why this user:Keysanger not prohibited from editing this topic? Mr. Wales or Misplaced Pages staff cannot place topic restriction on this person? Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 18:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Regarding my edit the deletion of content was done after I created the article Consequences of the War of the Pacific. So that no sourced content was removed from Misplaced Pages, I was just moved to make this article more compact. No biased editing there. Sietecolores (talk) 20:08, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I see that as text manipulation. You create article and delete all content from here to transfer there? You should leave some reference of text here in short and not delete all. Bad editing is bad. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Next you delete what for "compact" purpose? Will you create separate article for murders in "Operacion Condor" and delete all murder text from it to make more "compact" article? As I says: bad editing is bad. No reason exists Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

All the improvements in the article in the last couple of months have all been well explained or have been supplemented with good sources as accordance with Misplaced Pages protocols. The above section very much intends to discredit the improvements by simply disregarding the explanations and sources provided and for all intents and purposes the above section is simply a very long diatribe against those editors who have made improvements. Furthermore there's no evidence to suggest that this article contains passages that can be considered bigoted towards Bolivia and Peru. The above section contains no diffs and links to even explicitly suggest that. 210.50.202.97 (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

@Ramirez: what you are seeing, are well explained and referenced changes. As example I will take your second case. I changed the word "war" by "crisis" in the sentence about 14 February and added the word "secret" to the treaty description. The landing in Antofagasta was hardly a military action, no fight was needed since Antofagasta already had a population comprised of 95% of Chileans. There are primary and secondary sources that state the celebrations in the streets of Antofagasta after the landings. The subsequent (and real) military actions took place after the parliament of Bolivia authorized a declaration of war on Chile some 12 days after the landing. About the treaty, read the text of treaty and you will understand why the treaty is called secret. --Keysanger (Talk) 15:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

On October 19, 2013 (), Keysanger writes "deleted POV, folklore, and some unnecessary refs to well known facts" to delete over 13,000 KB of text from article. How this good "explained and referenced"? So bias "with explanation" is good bias? Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Darkness Shines and User:Dentren and User:Cloudaoc. Look all see this text from William Sater (I own book):

"The War of the Pacific can be divided into six periods. The first, and shortest, began with Chile's capture of the Bolivian seaport of Antofagasta in February 1870 and ended a few days later when Santiago had occupied the rest of the Atacama Desert."

Text is in page 19 of his book "Andean Tragedy"

Above you see Keysanger explain his bias edit, but source says otherwise. War starts when my country invades Antofagasta, everyone knows that except Keysanger and his friends.

Why no topic ban been applied this user? I says again: Bad editing is bad. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

What I've seen so far are attempted invalidation of improvements over the last couple of months which appears now to be based solely on the discontent of one editor. Like I said before I would encourage the accused to seriously consider speaking to an administrator if the behavior demonstrated above is continuing. Honestly I'm yet to see the proverbial 'smoking gun' that demonstrates an edit or passage in the article that can be deemed discriminatory towards Bolivia and Peru as per the original allegation. 210.50.202.97 (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Source the "World Book Encyclopedia": "The War of the Pacific began as a quarrel between Bolivia and Chile over control of certain Bolivian nitrate deposits. As a result of the dispute, Chile invaded Bolivia in 1879, marking the start of the war."

I write now that in text article. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

English not so good. Help with write (). Gracias Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 22:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I check archives and find problems with Keysanger start in 2009 (). Five years of bias edits. how terrible Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks

According to WP:TALK, Stay on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Comments that are plainly irrelevant are subject to archival or removal.

So, I removed the personal attack of the editor against me. I am not "Anti-Peru" nor can be said, w/o any explain, that my edits are bad article manipulation that are meant to be anti-peru.

Moreover, without any concrete reference to reliable sources, the deleted comments are the personal opinion of its author or authors, contradict the clause Stay objective: Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue.

Please, consider that in a talk page: Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page.

If someone has still doubts why I remove the sentences, please take a look to WP:TALK. --Best regards, KS (wat?) 20:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I have doubts on your interpretation of the guideline see WP:TPO. I have restored the comment you removed, do not remove it again as you have now removed it twice. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I make no "personal attack" on anyone. I write only what I see. User:Keysanger says to "stay objective", but their edits is biased and this hurts article content. I studied of Saltpeter War in two classes at Universidad de Chile. I know many people like user:Keysnager that are anti-Peru and anti-Bolivia. I can provide evidence to stop this person from biasing article. Gracias. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Guano, salitre, sangre: historia de la Guerra del Pacífico

Anyone got access to this source? I should like to know, author, publisher and if it has "when Chilean armed forces, enthusiastic welcomed by the population" are actually present in the source. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Book is reference in Sater book. Is true that Antofagasta was happy to have Chile take control. This why war is not consider conquest in my country. War is seen as taking what belongs us before land deal with Bolivia. But that no mean war no start when we invade the Bolivia controlled city. Authors say so in spanish and english. Eduardo Eddy Ramirez (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The text in Querejazu in page 248 states:

Mientras el Capitan Borgono llevaba y traia las cinco misivas que cambiaron Sotomayor y Zapata, 100 Marinos y 100 artilleros chilenos desembarcaron y tomaron posesion del puerto, ante la alborozada expectacion de sus compatriotas que recorrian las calles lanzando vivas a su patria

I hope your curiosity is satisfied. I revert your last changes. --Keysanger (Talk) 18:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I find it childish to discuss when the war began. With the first declaration of war?, with the occupation?, with the first battle?. with the first deadly cases?. I would say that a war begin with the first Point of no Return, today mostly when the first soldier die. An occupation doesn't mean a war immediately. As an example, take the case of the Falklands Islands. There have been "occupations" of French, Spaniards, Brits, Argentine, and US-Americans. Every of this occupations have been protested by another power. The first settlers, French, were occupyng a country within the Spanish region of the Tordesillas Treaty.

I would prefer my first wording, without mention of the beginning of the war. But if you find it important to set the date of the beginning, no problem. --Keysanger (Talk) 18:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

What part of not RS do you not understand? weaponsandwarfare.com is not, and also does not support "Some authors set the beginning" Darkness Shines (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Second revert of my edits

æDarkness Shines: if you haven't the books, it is your problem. I delivered the refs and the text containing the facts. Querejazu is a well known Bolivian historian beyond any criticism about his work. You may belive him or not, but he is a well known hiostorian. Please, stop reverting. Last warning.

About Querejazu, http://www.librosmaravillosos.com/aclaracionesguerrapacifico/ states:

LIBRERÍA Y EDITORIAL "JUVENTUD" considera que el señor Roberto Querejazu Calvo es el historiador boliviano que más tiempo y esfuerzo ha dedicado al estudio de la Guerra del Pacífico, tanto en archivos y bibliotecas nacionales como de otros países y que, como resultado de esa investigación de varios años, es quien con más autoridad, ecuanimidad y veracidad ha relatado la historia de ese trágico episodio de la vida de nuestra Patria en su libro "GUANO, SALITRE, SANGRE" y en numerosos artículos de prensa.

--Keysanger (Talk) 20:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Last warning, or what? Lol, I have already added a decent reference, you have argued here that chilien sources are no good, same argument stands for Bolivian ones. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@Darkness Shines:

1. I kept your reference (Isabel Allende) untouched
2. I never argued here that Chilean/Peruvian/Bolivian sources are no good. But only Chilean/Peruvian/Bolivian sources could be wrong, if the issue is controversial. That is not the case.
3. The welcome of the Chilean troops occurred also on 14 February and a consequence of the landing. That is not OR as you want to invent.
4. Stop reverting and your disruptive editing unless you want to get your name again in a noticeboard. I am observing carefully your behaiviour.

--Keysanger (Talk) 17:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Diddums, I said this was OR "Some authors set the beginning ", you will note that is not supported by the crappy reference you added, which I also told you is not RS as it is self published. You are also giving undue weight to the welcome the troops received, it has no place in the lede, which is why I clarified that in the section it belongs in, so I will revert you, and you may want to read the old WP:BRD essay. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Which are the relevant facts for the LEDE regarding the 14 February 1879?

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We have a disccusion whether following facts be present in the LEDE or not:

1. some authors consider the 14 February as the beginning of the war, other not.
2. the fact that the Chilean troops occupied the port city of Antofagasta without a fight
3. the fact that the Chilean troops experienced widespread support
4. the first battle occurred 6 weeks later

--Keysanger (Talk) 16:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

What is the beginning of a war ?

I think that there isn't a sound definition of the beginning of a war. A occupation, the first shot, the Declaration of war, the first point of no return (whichever is it), the first dead person or the first battle. Every one of these events can be the beginning if a war. Moreover, the beginning of a war can be stay undefined, like the beginning of the WW2. Some authors set it to the 1.9.1939 but others say the beginning of WW2 was the Second Sino-Japanese War. This isn't only a discussion of a number. Unfortunately, for the simple reader, the event that marks the beginning of the war is associated with the cause of the war, it has the (negative) connotation of to be the cause of the war.

In this case we see the interest of Darkness Shines to say only that Chile began the war, but this isn't the complete fact of the 14 February. It must also be said that, there were no fights, widespread support and that the first battle occurred 6 weeks later. This allow the reader to get a wider view of the facts of this event. --Keysanger (Talk) 17:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment:To declare February 14th as the "OFFICAL" start of the war automatically contradicts assertions already made in the article. First of all, it contradicts the initial intentions of the Antofagasta invasion, which was to protect Chilean interests and private property (was it a war or intervention?). It contradicts the first Declaration of war which was made from Bolivia on March 23 (BTW Bolivia celebrates this date as "day of the sea") and lastly it contradicts Bolivia and Peru’s mutual defense treaty which was to be activated once a state of war existed, hence Bolivia's war declaration. Keysanger's initial edits were reasonable and non-contradictory and should be reinstated with the improved additions and citations. Lastly just because a famous romance/drama author thinks February 14th was the start of the war and is used as a reference to validate that assertion, that does NOT demonstrate "good research" according to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. 202.138.22.253 (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

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