Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:11, 3 August 2014

Writing systems B‑class Low‑importance

This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Writing systems, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to writing systems on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project’s talk page.Writing systemsWikipedia:WikiProject Writing systemsTemplate:WikiProject Writing systemsWriting system B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Armenia B‑class High‑importance

Mesrop Mashtots is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Georgian alphabet as well?

The article on it has sources backing Mesrop's credit (although it is noted that a number of Georgian scholars think otherwise).

Propagandist statements

Misplaced Pages is not a place for a blatant statements about issues which are not an established facts. Thus removing the statement about Georgian and Albanian alphabets. None of them were created by Mesrop. It's an Armenian tradition which states so and it in no way can be thought to be strictly true as the issue is way too much controversial. Per Georgian scripts you cannot have such statement into the article. Thanks. Jaqeli 10:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like the topic ban was lifted too soon? It is not a "blatant statements". It is a historical event supported by a number of Western scholars, and opposed by Georgian historians. --Երևանցի 01:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Please keep calm. We can work this out easily in a civilized and calm manner. Per Georgian scripts article we cannot have that controversial statement. My current edit is compromising enough which shows and recognizes the Armenian tradition which are based on its chronicles so I am not against including that so we can have it in this way. Jaqeli 16:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Surprising words coming from a user who labels a historical theory (yes, based on early Armenian sources and now supported by many non-Armenian scholars) propaganda. If you want to discuss things in "a civilized and calm manner", then I suggest you refrain from using such quite unnecessary terms. I welcome your last edit, but it still doesn't illustrate the entire picture. Here are some reliable sources by authoritative authors who agree with this view.

• Russell, James R. (1999). "Alphabets". Late Antiquity: A Guide to the Postclassical World. Harvard University Press. p. 289. ISBN 0-674-51173-5. Mastoc' also created the Georgian and Caucasian-Albanian alphabets, based on the Armenian model. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)
• Grenoble, Lenore A. (2003). Language policy in the Soviet Union. Springer. p. 116. ISBN 1402012985. The creation of the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop, who is also credited with the creation of the Armenian alphabet.
• Rayfield, Donald. The Literature of Georgia: A History (Caucasus World). RoutledgeCurzon. p. 19. ISBN 0700711635. It has been believed, and not only in Armenia, that all the Caucasian alphabets — Armenian, Georgian and Caucaso-Albanian — were invented in the fourth century by the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots. {{cite book}}: no-break space character in |quote= at position 80 (help)

Note how James Russell directly supports the view. Grenoble says "the Georgian alphabet is generally attributed to Mesrop" and Rayfield states that "It has been believed, and not only in Armenia..." Conclusively, it is not just "According to an Armenian tradition". --Երևանցի 21:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

We've already gone a long way of that kind of cherry picking of sources. Per Georgian scripts article its summary is well explained and all claims are represented in its history section. So per that article "According to an Armenian tradition" is good enough for every side, thus we should keep it this way and we'll definitely avoid further mess or edit wars and the article will be more stable from disruptive editing for sure. I am totally for Georgian-Armenian cooperation in English Wiki so it would be much better if we by ourselves solve all these kind of problems. Jaqeli 23:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Your high opinion of the Georgian scripts article is not born out by some of its content. I find it puzzling that you allowed a quite blatant lie to remain in an article that you made many edits to - I am referring to this , the "older and supposedly outdated" text an anonymous editor added. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

 Done True. Corrected the first and the second oldest inscriptions as well. That was also input by that IP user it seems. Jaqeli 10:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

There's more than enough contemporary scholars that attest to the origins of the Georgian alphabet being invented by Mesrop Mashdots. The consensus here supporting that notion is overwhelming. Merely stating that the Georgian scripts article is the one we should all abide by is not a valid argument either. Just because Georgian scripts is GA doesn't mean it's perfect. Besides, as far as I can see, you're the only user that worded the article that way quite some time ago . Therefore, the Mesrop Mashdots article and the Georgian scripts article should be aligned to that effect. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

We've gone through those "more than enough contemporary scholars" and their "sources" long ago and all those sources were in reality rejected. See the archives and the discussions. Again, per Georgian scripts you cannot have that kind of wording because this is way too much controversial and disputed issue and everything concerning the Georgian script or its origins should be based upon its main article. You cannot claim A in one article and B in another. So please, leave out this edit warring and get aware those long discussions at the Georgian scripts article. It is a very complex issue and you cannot describe it in one sentence by bombarding it with some cherry picked sources. Jaqeli 06:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Rejected? Under what basis? How are these in anyway cherry-picked? There's dozens upon dozens of contemporary sources that say the same thing. They're completely reliable and thus serves to show that contemporary scholars do agree on that notion. I believe the wording of BOTH articles should change. If the talk page is not helpful, I'll take this to WP:DR. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Please see the archives and discussions at Talk:Georgian scripts. It took months to come to that stable and all-views-presented version so I suggest you see it. Jaqeli 08:39, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Your continual referal to Georgian scripts as a way of avoinding content discussion here is not helpful. I have already pointed out to you the fundamental falsehood that existed on that article for many months (until I removed it). For those many months it was there you were editing that article, and for those same many months you have been citing that article's content as an example to follow here. So your "see archives and discussions at Talk:Georgian scripts". does not convince. Also, this article is not directly related to the Georgian Scripts article - it is not a fork or a branch of it. If this article is a fork of anything, it is the Armenian alphabet article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I repeat. You cannot have that kind of statement per Georgian scripts. The issue is very complex and you cannot describe Mesrop's involvement with one simple sentence thus cannot stay that way. You cannot claim A in one article and B in another. Please stop beating the air. Jaqeli 16:10, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

You need to stop making up Misplaced Pages rules and just start presenting your case for content changes to this article on this articles talk page. Of course content on one article can differ from content on another - even facts and figures. Nothing is ever fixed. Indeed there are some non-English Wikipedias whose articles are composed of mostly nationalistic fantasies that bare no relation to their English-language equivalents. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Noone here is claiming to have two different claims in two different articles. I also suggest you read WP:OTHERSTUFF. Making an argument based on what another article says should be disregarded. It's about placing information catered to what the consensus states. And as far as I can see, there's been no consensus on the talk page of Georgian scripts to have that information inserted. It just appears to be an argument without a formal conclusion. And here, the consensus is overwhelmingly to what Tiptoethrutheminefield, Yerevantsi, myself, and others have argued. So, instead of constant edit-warring and diverting all attention away from this article to that of Georgian scripts, I highly suggest we send this to DR or to another forum. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• B-Class Writing system articles
• Low-importance Writing system articles
• B-Class Armenian articles
• High-importance Armenian articles
• WikiProject Armenia articles