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Revision as of 20:57, 4 August 2014 editLightbreather (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users17,672 edits →Link please: r2h← Previous edit Revision as of 21:15, 4 August 2014 edit undoUnbroken Chain (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers32,193 edits reNext edit →
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:::Yes ] you are right those are the correct areas of resolution, the problem was you were told by multiple people, admin and non, that there was nothing to be done. I understand that you didn't get the response you wanted but we can't go to multiple pages and boards hoping to get our preferred action, or rather we can to an extent, tt costs credibility though. I'd point out though that in quite a few things your definition of what constitutes an attack is overly broad and a hell of a lot on the overly sensitive side. That's just my honest opinion, one of the reasons why you are being singled out more then Scalhotrod though is that he knows when to disengage..There's a time to disengage too and in this situation it's past. I'm unlikely to have further thoughts on this subject as I think we will not agree until you allow yourself to calm down a little with the overall situation. ] (]) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC) :::Yes ] you are right those are the correct areas of resolution, the problem was you were told by multiple people, admin and non, that there was nothing to be done. I understand that you didn't get the response you wanted but we can't go to multiple pages and boards hoping to get our preferred action, or rather we can to an extent, tt costs credibility though. I'd point out though that in quite a few things your definition of what constitutes an attack is overly broad and a hell of a lot on the overly sensitive side. That's just my honest opinion, one of the reasons why you are being singled out more then Scalhotrod though is that he knows when to disengage..There's a time to disengage too and in this situation it's past. I'm unlikely to have further thoughts on this subject as I think we will not agree until you allow yourself to calm down a little with the overall situation. ] (]) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
::::" knows when to disengage." That's a good one, HiaB. But thanks for the post from yesterday, really. That was better. ] (]) 20:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC) ::::" knows when to disengage." That's a good one, HiaB. But thanks for the post from yesterday, really. That was better. ] (]) 20:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
::::], Let's assume for one moment you are absolutely correct he is the problem.. I'm not justifying what or why in this situation he disengaged but in the here and now he did which left the spotlight on one editor right now correct? I was to a lesser extent but everyone has agreed pretty much I'm not the issue...There is indeed a time to disengage. ] (]) 21:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

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Wikibreak?

Hello. I am worried about how things are going. You have admitted that you are frustrated and feeling combative and I don't blame you. The tone of your discussion is going from defensible to less defensible.

Your are caught up in a shit fest being carried on by many people who should know better and while your call for sanity was called for you need to be careful not to be dragged into it.

With respect perhaps a nice walk or other form of off wiki relaxation is needed. When the whole issue is less upsetting to you come back fresh. I may be off base so feel free to ignore or refute this suggestion. Chillum 20:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Chillum NO I agree with what you are saying. It was a call to sanity, I did it in a way that I understand some wouldn't understand. I took a few hours break and i do not plan on removing it but a way forward could be they can just hat it...Their solution sucked to say see ANI it's like a 300 page archive lol and I just got frustrated, this way they can go on pretending like all things are right in the world and can pat themselves on their back. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 06:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Link please

In all the brouhaha, I have been reviewing discussions of the past week. When you closed my "Request for administrator to evaluate the conduct of user" you gave this link but it's not taking me anywhere helpful. There is no discussion on that page headed "Neither funny or appropriate," and in fact, my name doesn't appear on that page. Also, are you an admin? I don't see anything on your user page that says so, and I haven't mastered how to figure out who is what otherwise. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 00:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think I found it. I searched the archives for "Neither funny or appropriate" and found this discussion, which was completely unrelated to my request to have an admin evaluate another editor's conduct. In fact, that other editor wasn't mentioned in this discussion and did not comment in it. Yet you closed my request saying that I was forum shopping. I had asked for help on Callanecc's page, but when the only feedback that I got there was the other editor's and yours, I went to ANI, per WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. Now rumors of "forum shopping" have started following me around. Lightbreather (talk) 00:58, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Lightbreather I'm sorry for the late reply, I was unavailable and away from home. That's the problem with places like ANI, AN, and Jimbo's page that I was trying to impress on you. This won't get solved there, literally nothing ever does unless it's egregious and blockable. The way to think of that place is an unruly mob which will just as likely turn on you then support you. While i think what you are doing is a fine thing, ultimately it will fail. Not because of a lack of effort but a lack of consensus. There's several times it's been attempted, I truly believe to be here you will have to tolerate massive amounts of idiocy. I've taken wiki breaks because of that idiocy. The problem is you started so many threads that were similar but varied everytime you'd start a new one. I counted an AN, ANI and various peoples pages. It may not have been intended that way but when we do that people start rejecting the argument..I'm not saying it's the right course but from my perception we went from the use of the word "cunt" to a person that you thought followed you to the gender gap and now it's a overall civility issue. It's why we have WP:STICK as a suggestion because sometimes what we want to happen never will. I am going to apologize for one thing though, I didn't realize you only started regularly editing wikipedia last September. It's a huge learning curve and you may not have been aware you were doing what we consider "forum shopping" which does actually change my perception about your actions a little bit. I think your bell was a little rung and you were frustrated with behavior that came across as uncouth or mean or that you maybe misunderstood. I'm sure it wasn't all your fault either, it never is purely one sided, if you notice in that conversation I closed at ANI there are more then just me noting you were going to a lot of different pages regarding the issue (which seemed singular and has morphed a bit). I don't have enough dealings to know if that's a pattern of behavior that Scal thought it was but that's what a bunch of editors saw. I really do encourage you to do something else more productive because I think this will be a time-sink that will end up running you off the pedia..then no one wins, not you or the encyclopedia. The best revenge you can have against someone short sighted enough to think he's superior because he is man is be a better contributor and person. I'm only 30 but I've stopped trying to control what others do because I can't, you ask for help with things you can't control and control the things you can. You can choose to look at all of my comments in any light you wish, I chose them for a reason when I wrote that and surprisingly it wasn't upset you or other peoples but sometimes a LOUD wake up calls works better then a quiet one, this whole situation is and will continue getting worse until finally everyone just gives it up. As for your comment am I admin, holy hell no, nor will I ever be one (yup I just heard your sigh of relief ;) ) that doesn't mean the closure was inappropriate, at that point not one, two but more then three administrators had heard what you said. User:DangerousPanda, User:Dennis Brown, User:Drmies, User talk:Callanecc, User:Chillum and User:BrownHairedGirl are all admin. There may have been one or two more I didn't unearth but each of this admin told you in varying degrees there isn't much they can do with the issue. This also stretched across multiple pages, that's why I and others are stating you were forum shopping. After looking at some of your history if I assume slightly more good faith then I was you might have just been unsure what we were saying and was unaware how those behaviors were effecting the perceptions of other editors including myself. Sadly those boards cause more problems then they actually solve unless it's a clear cut blockable offense. This may be too long and if so oh well i had a few things to clarify so it's up to you if you read it or not. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it.
I hear what you're saying about ANI and other boards, but the fact is, those are legitimate avenues of dispute resolution, even if some have labeled them "drama boards." Part of the reason a person files a complaint, is to make it formal, which is what I did in these instances, regarding three related but separate things. The first was about Eric Corbett and his use of the "C" word. The second was about Scalhotrod and his hounding/stalking behaviors. The third was about Civility on Misplaced Pages in general, after these other two experiences served as the straw that broke the camel's back - having experienced personal attacks and harassment regularly since I started actively editing WP coming up on one year ago. (I putzed around with my account between March 2007 and October 2012 for a total of 13 edits. I started actively editing on 9 August 2013.)
I spent the better part of this afternoon pulling all of this together so that you can see what I'm talking about.
Date Eric Corbett/Personal attack? Scalhotrod/Harassment? Jimbo Wales/Civility?
14 July 2014 13:46 Context: SH & Lightbreather topic-banned for edit warring (Callanecc was clerk)
22 July 2014 17:27 SH started "Gone silent?" on another editor's talk page to speculate about LB's editing intentions
23 July 2014 02:02 LB asked Callanecc (on his talk page) to intervene
23 July 2014 02:15 Cal told SH and other editor to stop
23 July 2014 06:51 Other editor deleted "Gone silent?" discussion
24 July 2014 00:48 LB started discussion on the AN TALK page about how to start a civility board
24 July 2014 20:14 EC commented, punctuated with now famous "C" remark
25 July 2014 17:47 SH called EC's comment "Brilliant" (SH was not part of the discussion)
26 July 2014 04:01 LB read EC's full comment, asked EC to remove "C" remark
26 July 2014 21:27 Djembayz removed comment
26 July 2014 21:29 2 min later, Richard BB restored EC's comment
27 July 2014 01:56 LB started "Personal attack(s) and harassment" discussion at ANI per WP:NPA
27 July 2014 04:08 LB replaced "C" word per WP:RPA
27 July 2014 04:10 2 min later, EC restored "C" word
27 July 2014 12:35 ANI discussion closed by Black Kite w/out action
28 July 2014 15:39 SH edited LB's talk page, on a discussion he was not part of
28 July 2014 15:56 SH edited LB's talk page archive, on a discussion he was not part of
28 July 2014 16:01 LB started discussion "Stalking by SH" on Callanecc's talk page; asked Cal to intervene
28 July 2014 16:05 SH started and pinged three editors to a discussion on his talk page about LB
28 July 2014 17:34 SH joined GGTF less than 48 hours after LB joined and less than 2 hours after LB invited three other editors to join
28 July 2014 19:44 Not hearing from Cal, and feeling anxious, LB asked at ANI for an Admin to eval SH's conduct per WP:DWH and WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE
28 July 2014 19:57 13 min later, request closed by Hell in a Bucket (not an admin) for "forum shopping"
28 July 2014 20:06 Drmies (admin) commented agreement that ANI discussion not needed
28 July 2014 20:19 LB started appeal on Drmies talk page headed "Please reopen"
28 July 2014 21:37 Drmies disengaged from the topic
29 July 2014 00:11 LB started discussion "I don't know if it will make any difference..." about Civility problems on Jimbo Wales talk page
What is obvious, to me, is that I was not "forum shopping." First, as I said earlier, that is primarily about content disputes, not conduct disputes. And I followed the instructions that WP:PA and WP:HARASS give. I do think if I had it to do over again, I would've left a message on Callanecc's talk page that I was moving on to ANI. And a message on Drmies' talk page that I was moving on to Jimbo's. Perhaps then you and a couple others would not have been so quick to conclude that I was forum shopping. Aside from that, despite all the grief, I don't think I would've done anything differently. The issue of Civility on WP - of which my most recent experiences with Eric and Scal are only a small part - must be addressed, IMHO. Lightbreather (talk) 00:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Again, thank you for your reply. I hope our work together in the future is more productive.
Finally, since some admins have been pinged here, I have a question. Do we editors have files? If there is something in mine about forum shopping, I would surely appreciate having it removed. In fact, if there is anything in it apart from my topic-ban for edit warring with Scalhotrod on the NRA page, I would like to know. Lightbreather (talk) 00:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
@Lightbreather: First, there are no files on volunteers of the project. The closest thing would be the log of active arbitration sactions and the user's block log.
Next, I'm sorry but seems to me that you're shooting yourself in the foot again. If you're going to give a full accounting of the situation your table should include:
  • That you filed at least two cases at WP:AE against @Scalhotrod:. (Pinging for transparency)
  • That you joined WikiProject Pornography. You did this after you had complained that Scalhotrod's membership in that project made you uncomfortable.
  • That Scalhotrod proposed a voluntary interaction ban in which you declined to participate.
Now Scalhotrod's behaviour has been quite lacking, but those last two points make your accusations of harassment suspect at best. You need to be aware that, given the above, going from venue to venue accusing someone of harassment looks very much like trumping up a case against an ideological opponent that you want blocked.
So here's some advice you've heard more than once: Stop, drop the stick, and go write some content. You seem good at it. Leave the drama to the people that feed on it. All these fights you've been part of the past few days will amount to nothing. ARBCOM isn't going to accept that silly case and I'm sorry to tell you that the WMF isn't going to get involved in trying to enforce something as culturally nebulous as civility. In fact, you should realise that neither the WMF nor Jimbo enjoy much respect from the community these days.
209.197.6.136 (talk) 02:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh and in case it isn't obvious, I am not HiaB. 209.197.6.136 (talk) 02:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
What would have made obvious who you are, would be leaving a signature. But at any rate, I will reply. Regarding the three items you gave. I could've made a table a mile long if I included every interaction between Scal and myself. I kept it to my recent complaint, which was harassment. The first AE, mid-May (2 months ago), I made against him would not have been at AE, except that another editor suggested that I take all disputes about GC articles there... so I did. Actually, it should be noted at that AE I specifically said that I did not want Scal banned. The second AE, mid-July, was the one that ended with both of us topic banned (for edit warring) from GC articles for six months. That is where I started my table of recent events.
Scal proposed an interaction ban after Drmies made it clear that part of what he (Scal) had been doing was inappropriate and unwise. (Drmies later went into more detail about all of Scal's behaviors, including provocation and hounding.)
Considering that our (Scal and I) conflict had been on GC articles, we were effectively following an interaction ban... until he started doing the things that are outlined above.
As for my joining the porn project - so what? It's scope has four parts, and I want to work on the fourth. Since his contributions are virtually exclusive to the other three, we won't be interacting.
Finally, re your advice, no thank you. First of all, I'm not in the habit of taking advice from IP addresses. Second, I've heard it before. If accepting the status quo were going to make me a happier, more productive contributor, it would have done so by now. I am not giving up on the idea that Misplaced Pages ought to enforce its civility policies. Lightbreather (talk) 16:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks HB, I hope there isn't a 2 drink minimum for the floor show. OK, if I just watch from the peanut gallery? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 03:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not the IP which isn't to say I don't ever use an IP but when I do I self identify ] Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes User:Lightbreather you are right those are the correct areas of resolution, the problem was you were told by multiple people, admin and non, that there was nothing to be done. I understand that you didn't get the response you wanted but we can't go to multiple pages and boards hoping to get our preferred action, or rather we can to an extent, tt costs credibility though. I'd point out though that in quite a few things your definition of what constitutes an attack is overly broad and a hell of a lot on the overly sensitive side. That's just my honest opinion, one of the reasons why you are being singled out more then Scalhotrod though is that he knows when to disengage..There's a time to disengage too and in this situation it's past. I'm unlikely to have further thoughts on this subject as I think we will not agree until you allow yourself to calm down a little with the overall situation. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
" knows when to disengage." That's a good one, HiaB. But thanks for the post from yesterday, really. That was better. Lightbreather (talk) 20:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
User:Lightbreather, Let's assume for one moment you are absolutely correct he is the problem.. I'm not justifying what or why in this situation he disengaged but in the here and now he did which left the spotlight on one editor right now correct? I was to a lesser extent but everyone has agreed pretty much I'm not the issue...There is indeed a time to disengage. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)