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Revision as of 17:35, 4 July 2006

List of Jewish communists

This entry, stated by indefinitely banned trouble-maker JJstroker (talk · contribs), is inherently problematic. The page will likely attract anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi POV-pushers, who argue that there is some sort of a connection between Communism and Judaism. Moreover, classifying who is a Jew is often a difficult judgment call outside the competence of Misplaced Pages editors. For example, Karl Marx, who is listed on the page, is a paradigmatic example of the difficulty of determining who is a Jew. Marx’s family converted to Lutheranism; and, later in life, Marx, like many communists, rejected organized religion. Strong delete. 172 | Talk 04:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete contains all of seven people, most of whom are better described as "of Jewish ancestry" rather than simply "Jewish". There's no corresponding List of Christian communists, List of atheist communists (for consistency, would that be coextensive with List of communists?), etc. - nor is there a need for them. Opabinia regalis 05:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Note - the list was a stub, indeed, so I added a few very influential: Rosa Luxemburg, Marek Edelman, Ernest Mandel, Ygael Gluckstein, Jesus Christ (more will follow). It is still a stub, but that is no reason to delete it, is it? ActiveSelective 06:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Active: Could you explain to the peanut gallery exactly how you arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ belongs on the List of Jewish communists? Since when does Christianity = Communism? I must be missing something, right? Hmm, it must have been the day I missed that liberation theology lecture on "Kermit the Frog is a communist ("frogs of the world unite -- before you croak!") and thus he is a very vulnerable "Jewish" frog. IZAK 10:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • First, Christ isn't communist in my perception. Nevertheless, (1) the phrase that "Christ was the first communist" is quite a common - whether I like it or not. (2) Liberation theology is indeed a good argument for adding the name (with some reserve) (3) The term 'communism' is not only used for modern-day Communism since Karl Marx. For example, there is also Primitive communism. (4) The prominent leader Karl Kautsky wrote a long article on Christianity and compared Christ's ideology to that of communisms. You see, many reasons not to ignore the connection laid down by many people - even though it is not my personal opinion. ActiveSelective 10:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Active: The problem with all this stuff is that it is not mainstream and until such time as it's accepted by the mainstream churches this type of "information" will always run afoul of WP:NOR and hardly ever be fit to be NPOV. You know, Jesus lived so long ago you can call him anything you like, but that does mean it's valid to do so. Communism is associated with the likes of Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung and it is doubtful that Jesus could or should be placed in the company of such modern-day figures. Why is it that there is this desire to connect anything significant to the Jews when the Jews and Judaism utterly reject such connections on their behalf? IZAK 11:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Well, it's hard for me to defend an opinion that is not mine. But I think the argument goes something like this: the vision of communism is a classless and egalitarian society; communists are for the redistribution of wealth and organizing social security. A particular communist zionist movement organized kibutzim. It is not all that different from a Jesus who chases the rich out of the temple, shares bread and fish, and says the poor will be taken up in heaven and the rich should first share. ActiveSelective 15:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Everyone is a stealth Jew! JEW! JEWSSS!!! Danny Lilithborne 05:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not a useful list. -Will Beback 05:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - You're very right anti-semites have no business here or anywhere, and therefore your warning is a valuable addition to the pages and talk pages. Not oposing that, the combination of the two subjects (the love-hate-relationship of Communism-and-Judaism and the Jewish communists caught in the middle) remains a very interesting object of study since it is connected to many questions in history and politics; it is just like the similar complicated love-hate-relationship of Judaism-and-Zionism (see Jews against zionism). Why did the people of one of the most backward countries in the world, and certainly the most anti-semite country, chose Trotsky (and other Jews) among their communist leaders? How very different where the personal and political fights of these particular communists against racism from outside, isolation from inside, opposing the zionist racism? Jewish communists have a very interesting history of their own no other Jew or communist has. Rather than deleting this list in order to prevent possible abuse (call it pre-emptive deletion) and thereby also preventing any normal use, I would suggest: (1) to add your warnings to the pages. (2) also to start an article on why it is difficult to determine who is a Jew and who not. How the term "Jew" changed during history from its original religious meaning to a new racial meaning and all the confusion and abuse inbetween? Then a "list of non-Jewish Jews" as illutration? ActiveSelective 06:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I find the topic somewhat interesting as well, as a historian who is of Jewish background. Still, as Misplaced Pages:Relevance instructs us, just because a topic is interesting does not mean it is encyclopedic. The object of study you describe is beyond the scope of Misplaced Pages, as it is not Misplaced Pages's place to decide on the difficult question of who happens to be a Jew. (Religious affiliation is one criterion, but it does not apply to the bulk of 'Jewish' Communists, who, like Karl Marx, did not practice Judaism.) Thus, I cannot imagine this page continuing to exist within the framework of Misplaced Pages's content guidelines. 172 | Talk 06:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) Well, I've seen many well written articles on problematic subjects. Atheist authors and believers cooperated on the Existence of god article, not deciding whether God exists or not, but displaying the whole spectrum of arguments evenly. With similar caution the different interpretations of the word "Jew" can be described. (2) Also, the list of terrorists is about who is 'generally considered' as such, and the list of humanists is about people who 'self-identify' as such - whether they are or not is thereby left out of the question. The perception of them being so is an important real power in itself. Likewise, Karl Marx is generally considered being 'Jewish' even though he wasn't religious. So, it means we should choose our words carefully here, indeed. We must also reference to the article Who is a Jew?. ActiveSelective 08:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
      • This is not just a problematic subject, but a problematic list. Just about every entry on the list would be a POV judgment call. Your own addition, Jesus Christ - according to some interpretations a communist Jew, in particular, raised eyebrows. 172 | Talk 08:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
        • I hear you. You are welcome to delete the entry. ActiveSelective 08:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above.--Tdxiang 06:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep - ActiveSelective does make some valid points I'd heard before (not from anti-Semites, which I am not). With reservations because of the obvious target, but would prefer to "be bold" with articles. If the list isn't fleshed out with more substance and discussions of this unique political/religious subset in due time, though, I'd likely change my vote. HumbleGod 06:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom (I like Jesus Christ as the #2 Jewish Communist abakharev 06:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Jesus Christ - according to some interpretations a communist Jew I missed that line earlier. Yeah, this article ought to go. 172 | Talk 06:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Jesus and indiscriminate nature of list. What's next - list of redhaired wide receivers? - CrazyRussian talk/email 07:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As mentioned, this 'list' was compiled by a previous troublemaker, and is likely just another joke of his. There are only so many Communists in the world and whether or not they are Jewish or are of Jewish ancestry is entirely irrelevant unless they say otherwise. On a more personal note, this strikes me as an attempt to black-list Leon Trotsky, a human being I have much respect for (this comment withstanding bias). Black-Velvet 08:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete per nom and indeed everyone else. Surprising this page has lasted this long. David | Talk 08:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this very clumsily written list. It's in fact a misnomer to say "Jewish communists" as this article implies quite blatantly that it's somehow one's "Jewish-ness" (implying a connection to Judaism as well) that has anything to do with being or becoming a "Jewish communist." This is similar to claims by communists that it is "Jewish capitalists" or "Jewish financiers" who are behind the world's ills. Then there is the claim that there is "Jewish racism" versus the power of "Jewish liberalism". So its "Jewish-this and Jewish-that" and it's all quite meaningless. This madness can go on and on unless it is stopped, and now is as a good a time as any to do so. Perhaps a better title may have been Communists of Jewish descent or The role of Jews in the history of Communism written in a very delicate and professional manner, but as this article stands it is nowhere near that. IZAK 09:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • A rename is fine. More info in the article is definitely very very welcome. However, I do not see how the article determines communism to be a Jewish thing. People become communist by chosing, whatever their religious or ethnical background. Likewise, you're not seriously considering List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners to be about 'Winners of the Jewish Nobel Prize', are you? ActiveSelective 10:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Active: I do not like any lists or categories of Jews. At one time I thought some moderate lists were ok, but things have gotten out of control on Misplaced Pages with all kinds of crazy lists growing every day (see Category:Lists of Jews). See my views about any lists or categories of Jews at User:IZAK/Deleting lists and categories of Jews. Misplaced Pages is NOT Jew Watch and should not be inadvertantly aping it. IZAK 11:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete. Very valid topic but very bad form. --TJive 10:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As a general principle, we shouldn't be making lists of members of ethnic group-by-ideology. However, per IZAK, I think there would be room in Misplaced Pages for a careful article along the lines of The Communist Party and African-Americans.--Pharos 10:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep, per above keeps. Shaun Eccles-Smith 10:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC).

Delete Gilgamesh he 11:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete I often ignore articles about Jews when there are similar articles about other groups. There aren't any communist lists focusing on Christians, Muslims, or Buddhists. Obviously another anti-semitic attempt to skew the Wiki against Jews.

--Yodamace1 11:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete POV bait Kuratowski's Ghost 11:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Inherent POV risk, pointless list (an article on Jewish communists would fare much better). Also: why does it presently lists socialists, labour activists, feminists? And what is the point in listing books? JFW | T@lk 12:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete An article explaing the relationship between Jews and Communism (ie zionism etc) is one thing, but a list of Jewish communist has no meaning. Jon513 12:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination - these "list of Jewish xxx" have got to go. --Leifern 12:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Kuratowski's Ghost --Ioannes Pragensis 13:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Strong Delete As per most of the above. I'm not sure this deserves inclusion. After all why not include a list of socialist zoroastrians if the above deserves entry. Amists 13:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete it's nearly as hard to decide who's a communist as it is to decide who's a jew! jnothman 13:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:WING --Shirahadasha 14:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Misplaced Pages need not foster or revive the Jewish-Communist conspiracy fetish. Dauster 15:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I would also oppose a list of Catholic fascists. The conceptual frame for both is one that amplifies historic stereotyping while obscuring encyclopedic content. These--and similar diads involving a religion and an object of scorn--need to be enclosed within broader discussions in order to minimize their use by bigots by placing the discussion in a detailed and nuanced context. This is the approach at Neofascism_and_religion that helped calm down edit wars and exploitation by bigots. In addition, the underlying assumption of the existing entry is that Jews appear to be a biological or genetic concept, rather than a religion and ethnicity with a wide range of forms. Some of the people listed clearly walked away from both the religion and the ethnicity. What is left is the non-existant racial or biological "Jew"--the core concept of Hitler. Misplaced Pages should avoid taxonomies favored by the Nazis. The page looks just like dozens of others I have studies...on neonazi websites. Same claims. Same list. Same echos.--Cberlet 16:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I see no point in having a list when the communists in question are described on individual pages. -- Owoc 16:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination and jnothman. --Metropolitan90 16:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this crap. Antisemites are always trying to ascribe everything evil to Jews, not the least pernicious association of which is this particular one. A study of Jews in the history of communism might be worthwhile, such as the article The role of Jews in the history of Communism that IZAK mentions, but that article ain't this one. The only possible use for this article is if it's gutted and restarted to cover the epithet of Jews as Communists, but that clearly was not the purpose of this article, nor do I see anyone volunteering to write one up...regardless, the present article should not be preserved in the history of such an article should it ever be written. Tomer 16:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete per Opabinia regalis and CrazyRussian. Non-encycopedic listcruft that violates WP:POV. Agent 86 17:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• 'Delete. It should be noted that Walter Benjamin, a German-Jewish philosopher, theorized, albeit in very oblique terms, a connection between Dialectical materialism (the philosophical core of Marxism) and Jewish mysticism. However, this list does not explore this issue. As many have pointed out, many of those listed can only be determined as either Jewish or communist loosely, if at all. Moreover, Jesus was not a communist, for much the same reason as why the Sumerians were not Christian: namely, it's utterly anachronistic. Communism specifically stipulates its own emergence in the process of history; therefore it makes little sense to call someone who lived two millenia ago a Communist.