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If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. My watchlist is over 2,000 pages at the moment, and I'm not keeping up with every page. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Editor's Barnstar
	Thank you! Have a great day! Levinas 25 (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

"Technically, any change, no matter how small to the text of an article, is a revert."

The WT:EW thread has been archived. The issue appears to have had a lasting impact; recently there was a block regarding a 1RR article where the user made a good-faith rewording in an attempt to find consensus. It is lamentable that the AN thread was closed with "The technical definition of a revert has been clarified". That shouldn't have happened.

I still believe the foremost problem is an admin problem, not a policy problem, even if the policy could use refinement. I have encountered many behavioral issues from Bbb23, even recently where WP:ADMINACCT was flouted in plain sight. "Technically, any change..." is such an unbelievably implausible interpretation, and in the context of the behavioral problems it seems more likely to be a post hoc rationalization offered under pressure in an AN thread. In any case, it should not set a precedent.

Something is wrong here, but I'm not sure how it should be addressed. vzaak 15:43, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi vzaak,

In our ample free time™, we can work on a {{supplement}} to provide a wide variety of examples. That would give us an opportunity to explain at length and answer some of the questions and "but what ifs" that were raised in those discussions. I don't think that any existing essay addresses this at all, so step one is a new name, I guess. WP:Identifying reversions? WP:Definition of revert? WP:Differentiating between reverting and collaborative editing? What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

A supplement is a good idea for a "second aid" treatment (I would pick WP:Identifying reversions because it gets away from the "mechanical" connotation of WP:Definition of revert, and the last one is too narrow), however I believe a "first aid" treatment is still necessary because the negative consequences seem to remain. Someone needs to climb the Reichstag and announce that "any change = revert" is simply not true. It should not be the basis of any admin action. Like don't delete the main page, that should be obvious, yet this particular form of insanity seems contagious. vzaak 18:16, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, vzaak, I agree that we need "first aid", and we will get there. But I think it will be easy to clarify the policy if we have "second aid" in place to deal with objections and corner cases. It might be better to expand Misplaced Pages:Reverting, which I'd forgotten about. Maybe Brian would be interested in helping, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The admin at issue here may have been too rigid either because he has a rigid mentality or because a rigid interpretation helped process "cases" faster. Keep in mind here that black and white thinking keeps the world simpler and may help one move quickly on to the next decision. A call for exercising due diligence and doing more investigating might have been all that was missing. But it probably is indeed best to start by ensuring that the policy wording is not playing enabler because in the future there will probably eventually just be someone else who interprets the policy wording in the same aggravating way if the wording allows that.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Have a peek at this -- similar behavioral problems to those I encountered, including the admin refusing to provide the violating diffs and treating others as if they understand what is going on in the admin's mind. "Those changes constitute a revert." This has to stop, and by more direct means than those hitherto employed. Combined with my experience (and the sublinks therein) and other cases I've seen, I believe there is a strong arbcom case against this admin. vzaak 23:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's look at that dispute:

• G's bold change
• S removed only one of the new sentences ("#1")
• G's restored sentence #1 and then made other consecutive edits
• S reverted a change to a completely unrelated sentence ("#2") (G accepts the reversion of sentence #2, and never touches it again.)
• G made more bold changes, all unrelated to either sentences #1 or #2
• S removed sentence #1 again
• G made more bold changes, again, all unrelated to either sentences #1 or #2
• D reverted to the previous day's version

Well, there you have it: G made four, mostly unrelated, non-consecutive changes to that section on the same day, and S reverted two of the changes (one of them twice), so that's "edit warring" by G according to some rigid and/or sloppy people. But I doubt that this will be even remotely interesting to ArbCom. You'd be better off with an RFC/U for admins. And to qualify for RFC/U, we need two editors to complain at him about the same overly aggressive block. So far, only the blocked editor appears to be complaining, and that's "one", not "two".

And in the long run, what needs to be dealt with is the policy, but rushing in isn't going to help. We need to build the ground work for clarification, so that the proposal will be sound and so that the discussion won't get derailed by people who focus on silly cases. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

There are really three separate matters,

1. Bbb23's interpretation of "revert" is unique and inappropriate. To my knowledge, no person on Earth believes what Bbb23 believes, admin or otherwise.
2. Bbb23's behavior surrounding the issue is disruptive.
3. Long-term goal of trying to reword the policy to prevent such an outlandish interpretation.

The third point may take up to a year, who knows. In the meantime, the disruption needs to be addressed. At least two of us have been, as Stephen Colbert might say, "Caught in the headlights of Bbb23's justice." Can't this be brought to RFC/ADMIN? I suspect others may submit concerns as well, for instance contemporaneous with my recent interaction was this thread which shows similar behavioral problems. vzaak 18:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

On #1, I'm not sure that even he believes what he once said. We don't want to leave people no room to change their minds about off-the-cuff remarks.

Yes, the one admin's problems can go to an RFC/U. (RFC/ADMIN and RFC/U are the same page.) But to do that, you need two people who agree to certify that they have attempted to resolve the same dispute, and you need to assume that the admin patrolling new RFC/U pages will be rigid in his interpretation of every single word of the requirements, and especially rigid in defining "the same dispute". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

At guidance it says "...if anyone else has had the same issues with the editor in question..." while elsewhere it says "the same dispute". The former fits but the latter fits only under the assumption that two instances of the same underlying problem are the same dispute. I don't know what to make of this. vzaak 22:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I've spent a lot of time looking at RFC and RFC/U pages. You should assume that the strictest possible interpretation will be the one that is used, because I've seen the more generous (and sensible) interpretation accepted exactly once in the last year. However, any, even trivial, "attempt to resolve the dispute" is normally counted. So if you joined some other user's dispute discussion, then you and that user would count as "two", even if your "attempt" involves just one or two short messages on the user's talk page. (Naturally, this assumes that the other user is willing to participate in certifying the RFC/U.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no personal relationships with any persons involved in this matter, but do have an interest in more judicious, accountable control over the way reversion rules are applied (in the Huggle and Twinkle world we live in). Hence, I have an interest in your long term goal. But, I will assist (and encourage sympathetic admins with whom I relate, to assist) only if the first two matters that you list are dropped. This because your doing so would reflect the fact that you appreciate that injustices occur here at WP, regularly, and to get hung up in a personal sense over any one of them is counterproductive. As well, its chapter-and-verse back and forth have led on both sides to caricatures of fellow editors/admins in ways that are unacceptable for practical progress. (No one of us is wholly good or bad, competent or incompetent, guilty or blameless, in any one situation or in general.) If you can step away from the past situation, and work to formulate a plan on the long-term goal, I am in and will recruit others to support. If moving forward seems (as it now does), to be linked to vindicta, personal or otherwise, I am out. There is not enough time in the world to deal with the injustices I and my family experience personally, let alone of those of the many less fortunate (affluent, lettered) than I, and so I simply cannot commit time to the literal myriad of ongoing, non-lifethreatening injustices that characterize this place. Ping me, if a long-term-only plan can be the focus. No messages at my talk, only here. Cheers, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Leprof 7272, it's possible that the admin in question will eventually end up at RFC/U no matter what any of us do, because that happens on occasion to admins who have such rigid approaches. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:13, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Block review idea

I've started a thread at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab)#Block review. Your input there would be appreciated. GabeMc 19:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Are you stalking me? (kidding)

Just wanted to say I appreciate that we're in so much agreement lately. Personally I think some of these discussions are going on far longer than they really "should", but at least everyone's being civil, and I think progress is being made...gradually. DonIago (talk) 16:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Stalking someone as sensible and rational as you (and you must be, because we agreed on two things! ) would be a happy change of pace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

(eye-roll) Should I be worried about logging on here some day to find that you've nominated me for adminship? :p DonIago (talk) 04:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Having managed to dodge the hazing ritual that is RFA myself for this long, I'm not likely to be nominating anyone else for it. It doesn't seem like an act of kindness to someone that you like. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps an April Fool's, then? :p DonIago (talk) 12:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Would be the perfect day, if you don't mind fielding complaints from grumpy killjoys. A few years ago, I saw a newly minted admin blame his election to everyone having a hangover after New Year's. Perhaps all nominations ought to begin on a major holiday? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I thought editing Misplaced Pages was all about fielding complaints from grumpy killjoys. :p If nominations on major holidays still face substantive but reduced scrutiny from said GKs, I'm all for it. But would my nomination be "challenged or likely to be challenged"? DonIago (talk) 16:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a rule that all RFAs are automatically challenged, by one of the "I hereby challenge every sentence in the entire encyclopedia" people? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:28, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps they could challenge it by removing it? That would be a bit of a win-win for me! DonIago (talk) 18:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:40, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:You don't own Misplaced Pages

Given your apparent (to be nice) contempt for content editors and the community in general in this essay, I wonder how you expect we might take anything else you say to assuage in the light of such fiascos as the VE as genuine. You seen to have laid out your position and stall clear enough. I read it as a massive smack in the face. The feeling on the ground has long been that the WMF believes "Our developers would have such an easier time if it wasnt for the *damn people* who use the product". Thank you for chrystalising this fear. Ceoil (talk) 16:45, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• You might want to check the dates on that essay. I started that page a couple of years before the WMF hired me (on a temporary, part-time contract) to help them collect feedback from editors.
• This is not the WMF's view of editors. This is editors' views of the small minority of editors who, upon being told that a minor UI change was made as a result of an editor-initiated, CENT-listed RFC at the Village Pump (a discussion that resulted in unanimous support from two dozen editors) nonsensically persisted in claiming that the devs changed the website "against consensus", or even that there was never any discussion in the first place, instead of saying something rational like, "I missed that discussion, I disagree with the outcome, and I'd like us to re-open it".
• Finally, if you want to send it to MFD, then feel free. As far as I can tell from comments and links made since I started it, the net result will be a failed MFD note on the talk page, plus more people knowing about its existence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions 2013 review: Draft v3

Hi. You have commented on Draft v1 or v2 in the Arbitration Committee's 2013 review of the discretionary sanctions system. I thought you'd like to know Draft v3 has now been posted to the main review page. You are very welcome to comment on it on the review talk page. Regards, AGK 00:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter—March 2014

The template dialog has been simplified to make it faster and easier to add parameter data. Read the user guide for more information.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor team has mostly worked on changes to the template and image dialogs.

The biggest change in the last few weeks was the redesign of the template dialog. The template dialog now opens in a simplified mode that lists parameters and their descriptions. (The complex multi-item transclusion mode can be reached by clicking on "Show options" from inside the simplified template dialog.) Template parameters now have a bigger, auto-sizing input box for easier editing.  With today's update, searching for template parameters will become case-insensitive, and required template parameters will display an asterisk (*) next to their edit boxes. In addition to making it quicker and easier to see everything when you edit typical templates, this work was necessary to prepare for the forthcoming simplified citation dialog. The main priority in the coming weeks is building this new citation dialog, with the ultimate goal of providing autofill features for ISBNs, URLs, DOIs and other quick-fills. This will add a new button on the toolbar, with the citation templates available picked by each wiki's community. Concept drawings can be seen at mw:VisualEditor/Design/Reference Dialog. Please share your ideas about making referencing quick and easy with the designers.

• The link tool now tells you when you're linking to a disambiguation or redirect page. Pages that exist, but are not indexed by the search engine, are treated like non-existent pages (Template:Bug).
• Wikitext warnings will now hide when you remove wikitext from the paragraph you are editing.
• The character inserter tool in the "Insert" menu has been slightly redesigned, to introduce larger buttons. Your suggestions for more significant changes to the special character inserter are still wanted.
• The page options menu (three bars, next to the Cancel button) has expanded. You can create and edit redirect pages, set page options like __STATICREDIRECT__, __INDEX__ and __NEWEDITSECTION__, and more.  New keyboard shortcuts are listed there, and include undoing the last action, clearing formatting, and showing the shortcut help window. If you switch from VisualEditor to wikitext editing, your edit will now be tagged.
• It is easier to edit images. There are more options and they are explained better. If you add new images to pages, they will also be default size.  You can now set image sizes to the default, if another size was previously specified. Full support for upright sizing systems, which more readily adapt image sizes to the reader's screen size, is planned.
• VisualEditor adds fake blank lines so you can put your cursor there. These "slugs" are now smaller than normal blank lines, and are animated to be different from actual blank lines.
• You can use the Ctrl+Alt+S or ⌘ Command+⌥ Option+S shortcuts to open the save window, and you can preview your edit summary when checking your changes in the save window.
• After community requests, VisualEditor has been deployed to the Interlingual Occidental Misplaced Pages, the Portuguese Wikibooks, and the French Wikiversity.
• Any community can ask for custom icons for their language in the character formatting menu (bold, italic, etc.) by making a request on Bugzilla or by contacting Product Manager James Forrester.

The developers apologize for a regression bug with the deployment on 6 March 2014, which caused the incorrect removal of |upright size definitions on a handful of pages on the English Misplaced Pages, among others. The root cause was fixed, and the broken pages were fixed soon after.

Looking ahead:  Several template dialogs will become more compact. Looking further out, the developers are also working on support for viewing and editing hidden HTML comments. You will be able to see the Table of Contents change live as you edit the page, rather than it being hidden. In-line language setting (dir="rtl") may be offered to a few Wikipedias soon.

If you have questions or suggestions for future improvements, or if you encounter problems, please let everyone know by posting a note at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback or by joining the office hours on 19 April 2014 at 2000 UTC. Thank you! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC comment

Hi! Would you care to vote or comment at this RfC? I noticed your name at the talk page for WP:NOR and figured you'd be an appropriate editor to ask, since the discussion concerns that policy. Dan56 (talk) 06:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

"extract the content"

I understand why you don't like the phrase, but the point isn't to view each fact within the scope of the entire article. It's to prevent people from using Twitter sources and saying things like "well, you know 'it' must mean her lastest album because the date is three days before she announced it, and 'there' must mean London because she talked about London on Facebook the same day, and ...". Each cited source has to explicitly support the fact it is used to support. If you can think of a better phrase to get that across, I've got no objection to changing the text.—Kww(talk) 01:24, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Kww, I don't think that's actually the point. Certainly that sort of thing would be bad, but the GNG is aiming at a broader idea: the sources (taken as a whole) need to provide enough information that you can write an encyclopedia article (without violating NOR). The requirement of "significant coverage" is not about whether the meaning of "it" or "there" is plainly stated.; it's about whether there is enough information in the sources (taken as a whole) to write an entire article without violating NOR.

The first words of the list item is the clue here: We're talking about why we need "significant coverage" before we can have an article on the subject. "It's Monday afternoon here in London, and I just finished my latest album" is not "significant coverage" of the album by any stretch of the imagination. You can certainly use a statement like that to support one sentence, and it won't require the least bit of OR to figure out the who, what, and where for your single sentence. But you simply cannot use a source like that to write an entire article. It's not possible to write an entire article from that tiny source, because it does not provide "significant coverage" of the subject. It only provides a tiny little detail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It's that "taken as a whole" idea that your change missed. Your phrasing seems to apply it to each and every source individually, but your explanation here addresses the need to be able to add all the sources together as the foundation of an article.—Kww(talk) 02:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's talk about this at WT:N. Other people might have good ideas. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	For your hilarious yet insightful commentary at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical), striking the delicate balance of light humor and astute relevance and seriousness I've not seen anyone do in a long time. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 07:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm glad. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for your helpful responses to my questions on the WP:MEDRS talk page. How refreshing to be taken seriously and without all the attitude. I don't know why this is so difficult for some people. Notice that the contrast between you and your fellow editor didn't end there. Not content that he'd found enough reasons to insult me on that page, Jytdog decided to come to my own talk page to find new reasons. So pointless. So what if I don't understand medicine. I'm not a doctor. I'm an engineer. So again, thank you treating me nicely. Msnicki (talk) 01:26, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter—April 2014

You can use VisualEditor to make redirects. First, remove any unwanted content from the page. Then go to the "Page options" menu (next to "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cancel⧽") and choose the "Page settings" item. Click the box to "Redirect this page to". In the box, type in the name of the page that you want to redirect this page to.

You can also set or remove categories for the redirect in the "Page options" menu. Read the user guide for more information.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor team has mostly worked on performance improvements, image settings, and preparation for a simplified citation template tool in its own menu.

• In an oft-requested improvement, VisualEditor now displays red links (links to non-existent pages) in the proper color. Links to sister projects and external URLs are still the same blue as local links.
• You can now open templates by double-clicking them or by selecting them and pressing  Return.  This also works for references, images, galleries, mathematical equations, and other "nodes".
• VisualEditor has been disabled for pages that were created as translations of other pages using the Translate extension (common at Meta and MediaWiki.org). If a page has been marked for translation, you will see a warning if you try to edit it using VisualEditor.
• When you try to edit protected pages with VisualEditor, the full protection notice and most recent log entry are displayed. Blocked users see the standard message for blocked users.
• The developers fixed a bug that caused links on sub-pages to point to the wrong location.
• The size-changing controls in the advanced settings section of the media or image dialog were simplified further. VisualEditor's media dialog supports more image display styles, like borderless images.
• If there is not enough space on your screen to display all of the tabs (for instance, if your browser window is too narrow), the second edit tab will now fold into the drop-down menu (where the "Move" item is currently housed). On the English Misplaced Pages, this moves the "Edit beta" tab into the menu; on most projects, it moves the "Edit source" tab. This is only enabled in the default Vector skin, not for Monobook users. See this image for an example showing the "Edit source" and "View history" tabs after they moved into the drop-down menu.
• After community requests, VisualEditor has been deployed as an opt-in feature at Meta and on the French Wikinews.

Looking ahead:  A new, locally controlled menu of citation templates will put citations immediately in front of users. You will soon be able to see the Table of Contents while editing. Support for upright image sizes (preferred for accessibility) is being developed. In-line language setting (dir="rtl") will be offered as a Beta Feature soon. Looking further out, the developers are also working on support for viewing and editing hidden HTML comments. It will be possible to upload images to Commons from inside VisualEditor.

If you have questions or suggestions for future improvements, or if you encounter problems, please let everyone know by posting a note at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback or by joining the office hours on Monday, 19 May 2014 at 18:00 UTC. If you'd like to get this on your own page, subscribe at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor#Newsletter for English Misplaced Pages only or at meta:VisualEditor/Newsletter for any project. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Invitation join the new Physiology Wikiproject!

Based on the long felt gap for categorization and improvization of WP:MED articles relating to the field of physiology, the new WikiProject Physiology has been created. WikiProject Physiology is still in its infancy and needs your help. On behalf of a group of editors striving to improve the quality of physiology articles here on Misplaced Pages, I would like to invite you to come on board and participate in the betterment of physiology related articles. Help us to jumpstart this WikiProject.

• Feel free to leave us a message at any time on the WikiProkect Physiology talk page. If you are interested in joining the project yourself, there is a participant list where you can sign up. Please leave a message on the talk page if you have any problems, suggestions, would like review of an article, need suggestions for articles to edit, or would like some collaboration when editing!
• You can tag the talk pages of relevant articles with {{WikiProject Physiology|class=|importance=}} with your assessment of the article class and importance alongwith. Please note that WP:Physiology, WP:Physio, WP:Phy can be used interchangeably.
• You will make a big difference to the quality of information by adding reliable sources. Sourcing physiology articles is essential and makes a big difference to the quality of articles. And, while you're at it, why not use a book to source information, which can source multiple articles at once!
• We try and use a standard way of arranging the content in each article. That layout is here. These headings let us have a standard way of presenting the information in anatomical articles, indicate what information may have been forgotten, and save angst when trying to decide how to organise an article. That said, this might not suit every article. If in doubt, be bold!
• Why not try and strive to create a good article! Physiology related articles are often small in scope, have available sources, and only a limited amount of research available that is readily presentable!
• Your contributions to the WikiProject page, related categories and templates is also welcome.
• To invite other editors to this WikiProject, copy and past this template (with the signature):
  • {{subst:WP Physiology–invite}} ~~~~
• To welcome editors of physiology articles, copy and past this template (with the signature):
  • {{subst:WP Physiology–welcome}} ~~~~
• You can feel free to contact us on the WikiProkect Physiology talk page if you have any problems, or wish to join us. You can also put your suggestions there and discuss the scope of participation.

Hoping for your cooperation! Diptanshu 12:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Osteopathic manipulative medicine

Hi WhatamIdoing, just wanted to let you know that Alexbrn responded to your comment and the discussion is ongoing. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 08:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Medicine Barnstar
		To WhatamIdoing, thank you for your dedication to improving medical articles. Axl ¤ 09:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for being one of Misplaced Pages's top medical contributors!

please help translate this message into the local language

	The Cure Award
	In 2013 you were one of the top 300 medical editors across any language of Misplaced Pages. Thank you so much for helping bring free, complete, accurate, up-to-date medical information to the public. We really appreciate you and the vital work you do!

We are wondering about the educational background of our top medical editors. Would you please complete a quick 5-question survey? (please only fill this out if you received the award)

Thanks again :) --Ocaasi, Doc James and the team at Wiki Project Med Foundation

WT:AT

Hi, you wrote "There's a remarkably lousy test proposed above," - I agree with you comments (though software costs are peanuts for publishers, the cost of French Polish Vietnamese is (a) the $1,000s it costs to employ extra proofreaders (b) doubling at least publication schedules). What particular edit by whom are you referring to, I see several comments scrolling up. Could you link to the specific one? Many thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

In ictu oculi,

• You don't employ extra proofreaders to use diacritics on names in English articles. Assuming that there is a proofreader at all, the same person proofreads the entire article. To use Vietnamese diacritics on a couple of names, you don't need a proofreader who specializes in Vietnamese. At the very most, you would give the proofreader one accurate copy of each name and ask them to make sure that each instance of that name matches it. In other instances (if you use extensive passages or a non-Latin language, for example), the publisher tells the author to proofread the non-English sections. Or, in an unfortunately common arrangement, you don't have a proofreader at all.
• Why do you think that adding a few diacritics would mean that you need to double the publication schedule? I'm betting that using diacritics for a Vietnamese player would add maybe 60 seconds to the time needed to proofread a feature-length article. That's all the extra time it would take me, anyway. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not talking about articles, I'm talking about print sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

In ictu oculi, so am I. I'm talking entirely about reliable sources that normally appear in print, like newspaper articles, magazine articles, and academic journal articles.

Have you looked at sources like The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage? It explicitly says, on page 6, not to use accent marks or other diacritics for any language except a few European ones, and to omit accents not only from all non-English words (including all places), but also from all names of people who do not live in the US, and only to include accents on the names of US residents if you are absolutely certain that the person prefers it that way.

In the face of an explicit editorial statement against using diacritics like that, the only possible conclusion is that they do not use Vietnamese diacritics because the made an conscious decision not to. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, correction obviously, I was forgetting newspapers also still exist on paper, I am talking about book print sources. Clearly the only possible conclusion is that they do not use Vietnamese diacritics because they made an conscious decision not to. As I said above "I agree with you comments", which includes because they made an conscious decision not to. We could also adopt a short-turnaround newspaper MOS if we made a conscious decision to do so. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:09, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• What was the specific diff of the "lousy test"? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: Male rape

Thank you for your warning. Gosh, I should change it right away. I hope you can help me to check after i change it :( thank you. Okkisafire (talk) 06:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

BUT IF I can't fix it, it will be better if the article is deleted entirely. I don't want to violate the laws. Okkisafire (talk) 06:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Is it allowable if i publish the statistical numbers or other statistical data? Okkisafire (talk) 06:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

And actually, it was Flyer22 who made the trivial changes, not me. She helps a lot. Okkisafire (talk) 06:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Whatamidoing, if you need my quick respond next time, I suggest you to leave your message on my Indonesian Misplaced Pages talk page. This problem surely makes me feel nervous -_-" and fortunately I open English Misplaced Pages today. Okkisafire (talk) 06:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm finish. Please check it, if I still do something wrong. And about the grammatical error, I'll ask my friends to repair it. Thank you :) Okkisafire (talk) 09:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

So how is it? Is it acceptable already? Okkisafire (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. To answer that, I would have to read every single source, which I unfortunately do not have time to do. The changes you made looked pretty good, but I am not an expert in either the subject or in copyright law.

If there are other problems, then whoever notices those problems will either fix it or tell you about the problems they found. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

21-OH

I do hope that you see this message, but either way, I do not know my way around Misplaced Pages enough to create categories on this page to address my concern. I recently added Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia due to 21-Hydroxylase Deficiency as a cause for Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome and my entry was reverted to the old. What I've read is that it affects 1 in 8 Ashkenazi Jews, otherwise known as Germanic Jews. They lived in Germany, Switzerland, and France, and many of their descendants are American. Can we at least add it to the category, so people can be aware of it when researching this condition(PCOS)?

Thank you for your time, David Winkler — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidlwinkler (talk • contribs) 19:29, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi David, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! I hope you'll stick around.

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency affects one in 15,000 children, according to the article, which is not very many. According to this journal article, it affects only 1–2% of Ashkenazi Jews. The one-in-eight number is probably the frequency of the recessive gene, not the frequency of the disease. What this means, in effect, is that even among the high-risk population of Ashkenazi Jewish women, the cause of PCOS-like symptoms is probably not CAH.

By the way, did you know that there is an article about the Medical genetics of Jews? I don't know if it's current, but I thought it might be interesting to you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your response and the good explanation regarding percentages. What I do know is that depending if one or both genes are defective then you can either be a carrier or have the disease, respectively. A carrier can develop PCOS without displaying other characteristics such as hirsutism or shortness of stature. As a layman, I of course have many questions as my ex-wife went 45 years without being diagnosed until I noticed peculiar signs and symptoms in my son such as hirsutism, and shortness of stature.

My father's ancestors migrated to America from the Rhineland Valley of Switzerland where a high percentage of the population is of Ashkenazi inheritance. Personally, I suffered a severe reaction along with acute kidney failure due to the ingestion of navy beans and my cardiologist is helping me look for a better primary to write the case study. In a month or two from now I'll send you a link to the medical journal where it's published. I diagnosed myself through Google and Wiki before my physicians gave me a symptomatic diagnosis for the horrifying experience I suffered. The genetic test was negative so I guarantee it's a huge breakthrough and you'll hear about it. Because of it, you'll find at the top of the chart a remark about Favism with some ???s next to it... ]

Thank you again! David — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidlwinkler (talk • contribs) 02:07, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

This fringe journal issue

Keeps coming up. Do you think we could get some wider input and get some better clarity? (I would certainly appreciate it). My impression is that while people are often very keen to discuss individual cases - often heatedly - there is less enthusiasm for discussing this issue in the abstract. Perhaps if we try and get some better wording at WP:FRINGE and/or WP:MEDRS that might pique some interest? Alexbrn 15:20, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

A general rule should be, if it's indexed at PubMed, it's not a fringe journal. There's reasons why I and many other editors use exclusively Pubmed when researching and discussing complementary medicines. DVMt (talk) 15:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

PubMed is not an indexing service. It includes all kinds of rubbish, like articles from the aforementioned Homeopathy journal. MEDLINE indexing - a different thing - is already a factor mentioned at WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn 15:28, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

So let's talk about the abstract for a moment: my main concern is people (policy writers and quoters) using the wrong words to describe concepts. I'm a policy wonk; this matters to me. I spent three years cleaning up after people who thought that secondary and independent were synonyms. We have almost convinced everyone that WP:Secondary does not mean independent, although there's one (otherwise truly excellent) editor who still thinks that this is a dubious distinction. I really, really, really do not want to go through the same long process with mainstream and independent.

I recognize FRINGE's needs. I also recognize FRINGE's uses, which are far broader than what was intended. FRINGE is a convenient stick for beating POV pushers, and it gets used against people pushing views that aren't really FRINGE.

This takes us to the issue of altmed vs esoteric: FRINGE is intended to cover stuff Hulda Regehr Clark and Psychic surgery—stuff that nobody really believes is useful, not even other altmed people. It is not intended to cover stuff like Dance therapy, which is technically both "unproven" and "alternative" for cancer patients, but that is readily accepted by everyone ("I think you need to get some exercise." "I hate going to the gym. How about I go dancing instead?" "As long as your heart rate gets up into the target range for at least half an hour, that's fine"). In other words, FRINGE is for stuff that is as widely discredited and as widely rejected as the Moon landing conspiracy theories. That doesn't include all of altmed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Well put. I also feel that we are labelling whole systems of healing and/or professions as fringe as opposed to delineating clearly what aspects may be fringe and what's not. DVMt (talk) 15:51, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

@WAID, yes - it's the grey area articles (notably chiropractic and acupuncture) where this is most problematic (partly why I don't edit them much as I think they are as intractable as Israel/Palestine articles). Things like dance therapy, T'ai chi and so on - as complementary therapies - are less problematic, except where their benefits are sometime overstated. And then there are the "obvious" and well-described fringe things: e.g. Craniosacral therapy, Gerson therapy, homeopathy (though all these articles are subject to regular skirmishes).

So, I think you're raising a concern "behind" the question of fringe journals, which is that WP:FRINGE is being used in a "far broader" way than was intended. Could we isolate some particular wording in WP:FRINGE that bears on this? Alexbrn 16:13, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Chiropractic is also a complimentary therapy which is used primarily for MSK issues and back pain and neck pain in particular. 9/10 patients present to DCs for MSK complaints , have developed evidence-based guidelines , have developed an evidence-based faction in the profession have pioneered World Spine Care which, surprise, focuses on evidence-based management of spinal disorders in the 3rd world, and now DCs are permanent part of the Olympic games as part of the medical staff and . Comparing the chiropractic with homeopathy is apples and oranges at this point. DVMt (talk) 17:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

But Alex is probably right that the dispute is probably intractable, because if you wrote about that 90%, you'd have some "straight" person come over and say that you were misrepresenting his profession by not emphasizing the other stuff, and some anti-chiropractic editor egging him on, because he'd rather discredit everything, and emphasizing the old garbage makes it easier to ridicule (which is true for mainstream, too; for example, there are a lot of older midwives in the US who chose their profession because mainstream medical care was so awful: Don't touch the baby, especially premature babies! Just put them down on their tummies and leave them alone. They're too fragile to hold).

Alex, I think it might be easier to address the medical issues rather than the general ones. We could do that by saying that altmed is not automatically fringe, and that something allegedly "mainstream" can be. I often find that it's useful to give examples, because that gives people a better sense of the scope and scale. I think that most editors can grasp the difference between non-fringe-y altmed, like massage or echinacea supplements, and the true fringe-y stuff like Gerson therapy.

On a related point, I've finally started the fairly tedious and somewhat complicated work of merging WP:INDY and WP:Third-party sources. We've talked about it for years. It may take me months to finish, but when that's done, it should help with my main concern, which is people mis-using independent when they really mean biased. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the majority of your point, WAID, but for the straight DC to come on and and challenge that, they would need the appropriate reliable source. I guess what I'm getting at, specifically, is chiropractic management of MSK issues considered fringe? This article suggests its a 80/20 in favour of DCs who practice primarily MSK . The profession has endorsed a spinal health experts identity at the international level (WFC) it was confirmed by the colleges and in this report from 2013 confirms Palmer is onboard as well . It's really the fringe within chiropractic that does not endorse the spinal health/msk model and I'd like for that to be clear. DVMt (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that the common forms of manipulative management of MSK pain is fringe, whether that's done by a DC or a DO or a PT or the patient himself. It may not work especially well for chronic back pain, but, then, neither does surgery or drug treatment. "Effective" is not what makes something mainstream, minority, or fringe. What matters is whether it's generally accepted in the entire, big-tent field of medicine (not just within its own field). The views of the straight DCs or the mixer DCs don't matter as much as the views of the non-DCs.

So imagine a survey not of chiropractors, but of physicians, nurse practitioners, clinical officers, physical therapists, sports medicine people, allied health workers, etc., even dentists and licensed altmed people, like massage therapists and acupuncturists. Do they recommend it? Do they use it personally? AFAICT, most mainstream healthcare practitioners around the world recommend manipulative medicine and/or acupuncture for MSK pain (to suitable patients, however they define that); therefore, that's mainstream.

To find out whether this sub-field is fringe, we ask the same question: Do the people in this broad field recommend "straight" chiropractic for non-MSK stuff, or only MSK-type chiropractic? AFAICT, a mainstream practitioner is likely to oppose chiropractic for, say, cancer care or diabetes, even if he or she recommends it routinely for an acute back injury. Almost no one (except straight DCs themselves) recommends it for cancer or diabetes or any number of the other things that straight DCs claim to be able to treat; therefore, those uses would be fringe.

Does the system for figuring this out make sense? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:28, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Well it seems we agree about that as well. How do we get that to be reflected however? Your interpretation that manipulative treatment for MSK pain is mainstream is something that is inherently logical yet because this conversation isn't happening at WT:MED or WP:FRINGE it's going to be ignored and the usual extremists battles will play out. How do we go forward? DVMt (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Somebody with back pain might do as well just doing exercise, get the benefits without the magical trappings and attendant bill! Cost-effectiveness is an important consideration: PMID 21328304 ? By "manipulative treatment" do you mean massage, physiotherapy ... ? it seems a broad term. Alexbrn 03:38, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

You're assuming that it's magical when someone has a mechanical MSK problem and someone provides a mechanical solution to a mechanical problem is magical. There is tons of science in musculoskeletal medicine regarding manipulative therapies, in regards to their effectiveness, cost-effectiveness, safety, basic sciences, that are done by by primarily DOs, DCs, PTs and PhDs from various fields such as engineering, statistics, anatomy, epidemiology, etc. Manipulative medicine is broad but the context in which it is used determines whether or not it has mainstream acceptance. In the case of manipulative medicine, it is mainstream for MSK but not for non-MSK. The difference being there isn't presently a) sufficient evidence that demonstrates comparable effectiveness b) is accepted within the health professions and the public. We're 40 years deep now into research of manipulative therapies for MSK disorders and the WP default position is that it's pseudoscientific. That's bogus. DVMt (talk) 04:45, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it's magical when it incorporates (and charges for) magical elements like detecting vital vibrations or subluxation, and/or attempts to treat systemic conditions which have no MSK connection. "Manipulative medicine" is too broad a term to be useful: of course some kinds of manipulation are useful. Misplaced Pages has no "default position" and does not even mention pseudoscience in relation to Physical therapy, say. (Of course this raises the question: if chiropractic/osteo* are, in effect, equivalent to massage or 'vanilla' physical therapy, what is their distinctive reason for existing? Relatedly, proponents of these magicks are keen to make out that they are as one with the acknowledged benefits of vanilla therapy, and so perfectly mainstream thank you very much. This is a game that recurs on Misplaced Pages, but it's a bit rum: like claiming homeopathy is legitimate because drinking its remedies is known to cure dehydration!) Alexbrn 06:42, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I was under the impression that a partially dislocated joint ("subluxation") was something that even orthopedic surgeons could detect. They even seem to think that it could happen in the spine, and that it could cause some problems that surface elsewhere, like pain in the leg.

Misplaced Pages, the publication, may not have a default position, but the editorial community here does, and it lines up with Quackwatch's opinions very neatly.

Cost is irrelevant to the question of whether it works, and whether it works is irrelevant to whether it is mainstream. Arthroscopic knee surgery for knee pain has been demonstrated to be useless with high-quality evidence, but it's mainstream. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:10, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

"the editorial community here does, and it lines up with Quackwatch's opinions very neatly" ← that is generally true: Misplaced Pages has a skeptic outlook and oppresses fringe viewpoints. Such is the operation of consensus. Personally, I think that is A Good Thing. Alexbrn 15:18, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn, you're missing the point again. Manipulative medicine manipulates 'something i.e. manipulable lesion. You are referring to 'magical' subluxations which, is of course, the metaphysical POV which is fringe, but yet cannot seem to understand that you're endorsing the 'straight' perspective (fringe) and ignoring the mainstream perspective (biomechanical lesion) that is found in the ICD-10 under the MSK section . So unless you're stating that the ICD-10 and the WHO are not credible then you'll need to revise your rather extremist POV. Questioning the existence of osteo/chiro is beyond the scope of this thread, but I would add the research shows that 90% of MM in North America are carried out by chiropractors with the balance being provided by osteos and physios. Also, regarding treating systemic disease, I already demonstrated that according to the research that # is 10%. So you're focusing again on the 1/10 as opposed to the 9/10. Also, you're conflating things again, with homeopathy and now vanilla therapy. It would be much easier if we stuck to this subject. So long as you keep thinking that the dysfunctional articulations whether or not they are in the spine or peripheral joints don't exist then you miss the point why professions DOs, DCs, PTs, DVMs, NDs and some MDs manipulate. DVMt (talk) 15:53, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Alex, this talk about magick isn't helpful. If you wake up with a crick in your neck (has that ever happened to you?), and someone pushes or pulls on your neck for a second, and immediately afterwards, you have full range of motion in your neck, then there's no magick of any kind involved. "A crick in the neck" is a "subluxation" by everyone's definition, and manipulative treatment seems to be pretty immediately effective for it from what I've heard.

The community runs skeptical, but source-based NPOV is not optional, even if the unsourced or undue material is WP:The Truth™ according to all right-thinking rational people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:33, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

WAID, re: the question above (MM for MSK conditions) which is currently default pseudoscience, where would be the best avenue to have a broad discussion on this and come to some kind of consensus? This would apply to osteo, chiro, PT and others that use manipulative techniques for MSK conditions. DVMt (talk) 15:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It depends on what you want to achieve. Are you looking for a specific change to a guideline (e.g., adding a note to FRINGE that altmed is not 100% fringe-y), or are you looking for a general discussion? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like there not to be blanket like descriptions, such as 100% of alt-med is fringe and there is no science whatsoever in CAM. But rather than be too broad about it, I'd like to stick to MM for MSK. CON can change and it should reflect the times. Having QuackWatch be the judge, jury and executioner, well, isn't very balanced. DVMt (talk) 01:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Fuzzy boundaries. CAM ≠ alternative medicine. MM ≠ fringe. All alternative medicine (in the sense of unproven things used/promoted as an effective alternative to medicine in pursuit of medical goals) is fringe by definition. As has been said many times, alternative medicine that works is ... medicine. Complementary therapies (i.e. used as an adjunct to medicine) can be nice & helpful, but sometimes are subject to exaggerated claims. The big picture here is that some chiropractors want to make a land grab for spinal manipulation in general and re-brand, cutting the loony element adrift. Good luck to them, but Misplaced Pages can only observe, and not participate in, these struggles. Alexbrn 05:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The definition of FRINGE is not "unproven". The definition of "medicine" is not "things that work". Really: that's an appealing definition, but it is by no means generally used or generally accepted. That is strictly a minority viewpoint. If that were true, then all sorts of conventional medicine would suddenly become "alternative", from including: refusing to let patients drink water eight hours before surgery; refusing to let them eat after surgery; doing almost any sort of arthroscopic knee surgery for cartilage damage; any cough medicine containing dextromethorphan; prescribing antidepressants for mild depression; and many, many more. The opposite of alternative is conventional. Both conventional and alternative could be evidence-based.

Or, to put it another way, if you wake up with a crick in your neck and a chiropractor fixes it for you, that was "alternative" even if it worked, but if a PT made exactly the same motions, then it's "conventional" even if it didn't work. Eventually, that treatment might become generally accepted, in which case it will stop being called alternative, but the process is not instantaneous. This has happened in both directions, but one simple example is childbirth: Lamaze techniques used to be "alternative" and now they're not, and home births used to be considered conventional, but now they're alternative (in the US). Does the baby say, "You've labeled this 'alternative', so I refuse to get born"? No. Homebirths are still effective at birthing babies (safe, even, for low-risk pregnancies), and Lamaze breathing is no more effective now than it was when it was called alternative and bashed by anestheisologists and obstetricians all over the country. The label has more to do with social reality than with biological reality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and I should have added "... as generally accepted by respected etc. sources". MM is not inherently fringe; but it would be if it used to treat (say) pancreatitis. Are we actually disagreeing? Alexbrn 16:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

To the extent that you keep saying that "All alternative medicine is fringe" or "All unproven substitutes for conventional care are fringe", then, yes, we are disagreeing.

You seem to be operating in a "digital" system: something is either wholly conventional or wholly fringe, with no middle ground between the two. I see this as more of a spectrum issue. FRINGE is meant to deal with the stuff that's really "out there", not the stuff that is just a little less accepted than average. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, no - I wrote about the "grey area" above, and constrained my definition of fringe altmed to "unproven things used/promoted as an effective alternative to medicine in pursuit of medical goals". Sure, there are degrees of fringeiness. Alexbrn 17:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps some examples will help. Can you name five altmed practices that are truly altmed (that is, truly substitutes for conventional care) but not FRINGE, and explain why they're not FRINGE? Can you name five others that are truly FRINGE, and explain why they are? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn, I see the same as WAID, you're operating in a false dichotomy either some is completely and incompletely fringe. Again, you bring up MM and pancreatitis whereas I specifically stated is MM for MSK fringe? WP (and your line of reasoning) also is always implying of alt-med is in an alternative to medicine instead being complementary. By your logic, there are also degrees of 'mainstreamness'. So long as you take what seems to be a dogmatic skeptical stance (which is the polar opposite of the 'true believers' then this is problematic. To suggest there is no science in manipulative therapy research is, well not true. There are mechanisms of action which are known, including a mix of biomechanical , somatosensory activation neural responses (primarily neuromuscular) and sensorimotor integration . These are 4 reviews that get dismissed as fringe, well, since some medical physicians here operate under the assumption that a) SMT is bogus/fringe, b) SMT= pseudoscientific and c) all 'altmed' journals are inherently bogus and biased. Like WAID correctly asserted, there is a spectrum of quality and professionalization of specific professions and/or interventions. Furthermore, MUA is something that is gaining increasing interest as this document shows and specifically states that since the 1980s "spinal manipulation has gained mainstream recognition". Surely in 2014, 30 years after the fact it was dubbed to have gained mainstream recognition one would think that this evolution would be noted. The fuzziness of which you speak of is actually pretty clear: MM for MSK and MM for non-MSK. Unfortunately, Alexbrn and others who share the same hard-line POV conflates the two while I am merely trying provide a long-term solution that affects DCs, DOs, PTs, some MDs and some DVMs. DVMt (talk) 00:37, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

@DVMt As I wrote, "MM ≠ fringe" ... there are valid applications, but that does not legitimize otherwise quack professions which encompass it. Alternative medicine is different from complementary medicine (except in the minds of some Americans, I understand, because of a political decision taken there once to conflate the two). I don't know what your point about MUA is. MUA physicians claim it is "mainstream" - what a surprise! BTW, our article on Manipulation under anesthesia is a massive MEDRS fail, no? Alexbrn 05:23, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

that does not legitimize otherwise quack professions which encompass it

Is the converse also true? Do quacks among MDs de-legitimize that whole profession? Or should we look at the majority instead of the minority? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, to some degree: that's why "MD" is no guarantee of anything much. Alexbrn 17:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

@WAID I suppose once something is known to work it already has the trappings of convention to some degree, but from recent editing I can think of some altmed-ish things which are not really fringe (because: they have been found effective to some degree): Mindfulness for anxiety (rather than medication); honey for treating coughs (rather than some kinds of medication); Tea Tree Oil for fungal nail infection (perhaps, rather than pharmaceutical preparations); melatonin for aiding sleep. One fascinating one is circumcision for HIV prevention, which seems to have started life as a kite-flying exercise by proponents of circumcision, but turned out to be true (so is not really now altmed, I suppose). For the firmly fringe you might look at Burzynski clinic, craniosacral therapy, rife machines, reiki ... Alexbrn 06:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I asked for things that are really-truly-cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die altmed, not things that you accept as nearly conventional, but your reasoning is illuminating enough: you persist in saying that things that aren't effective are fringe. Shall we now go tag everything about OTC cough syrup as fringe? Where exactly in FRINGE does it say that all unproven or ineffective medical treatments are FRINGE?

(Also, the physician described here does not sound like a "proponent of circumcision" to me.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

No, you misrepresent what I am saying. To repeat, the fringe altmed intersection happens for "unproven things used/promoted as an effective alternatives to medicine in pursuit of medical goals". For the circumcision thing, I was thinking of much earlier - of Aaron J. Fink for example. Alexbrn 17:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn doesn't seem to consider the majority vs. the minority, even if the data suggests it's a 80/20. Instead, it's more black and white and labelling a whole profession as quackery. If MM doesn't equal fringe then why are you editing in the exact opposite manner and putting in the lead the OMM is pseudoscientific? You're saying one thing here and doing the exact opposite. Also, WAID raises an excellent point, you persist in saying that things that aren't effective are fringe.. I'd like to hear your clarification of this, please. DVMt (talk) 17:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

More fuzzy straw men. MM (in general) ≠ OMT (a system based on Still's dogma). Ineffective things aren't fringe; ineffective things promoted as effective alternatives to effective things (at least) are. Alexbrn 17:34, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Nothing fuzzy, and certainly not a straw man argument. Whether it's OMM, CMM, OMPT, it's still MM. And that's the point. We agree that MM for MSK isn't fringe. Next up, is reworking WP:FRINGE so that the major key points of this discussion are noted and updated. Currently fringe has gone rogue and that's leading to chronic problems. We can do better. DVMt (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

"Whether it's OMM, CMM, OMPT, it's still MM" ← no, it is a type of MM; you are blurring categories. Cranial therapy is a type of MM, and is as hardcore fringe as you could hope to find. Alexbrn 04:25, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn says, the fringe altmed intersection happens for "unproven things used/promoted as an effective alternatives to medicine in pursuit of medical goals".

So Alex apparently believes that standard OTC cough syrup is FRINGE altmed:

• It is promoted as being effective for suppressing coughs, and it has been scientifically proven to be useless.
• It is promoted as an alternative to prescription drugs that actually work (e.g., codeine). Nobody recommends taking OTC cough syrup when you're already taking codeine.
• It is promoted "in pursuit of medical goals", namely to make sick people stop coughing.

Now, if dextromethorphan isn't really FRINGE altmed according to your definition, then tell me what dextromethorphan actually is. How could someone completely unfamiliar with cough treatments tell the difference between the wholly ineffective dextromethorphan, which is sold in a bottle that claims it will suppress a cough, and some equally ineffective homeopathic water, which is also sold in a bottle that claims it will suppress a cough? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

To be accurate, a substance can't be fringe. But assuming your "scientifically proven to be useless" is solid and settled, the promotion of the substance's worth in the face of that evidence would be fringe. To quote the guidance: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field. For example, fringe theories in science depart significantly from mainstream science and have little or no scientific support." Alexbrn 05:54, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The science is solid here.

Here's the thing: Medicine is not "science". If you look around the drug store, you will see that promoting dextromethorphan as an effective cough suppressant is common. wikt:Mainstream means "Used or accepted broadly rather than by a tiny fraction of a population or market." Mainstream means "a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence". Mainstream doesn't mean "no scientific support".

So what's broadly used for treating coughs? The US alone spends $4 billion on cough medicines containing this stuff each year. What's broadly accepted? It is (still) FDA approved for this indication. What's the prevailing activity? If a non-alt-med person has a cough, he buys this stuff. What's the current standard? This is recommended every day by doctors all over the world, especially if they think that you aren't miserable enough to justify a codeine prescription. (Some of those doctors probably don't know that it doesn't work, but others do, and recommend it as an unannounced placebo, or to get you to take the other drugs in the same cough medicine.)

This is mainstream. This is conventional. It's not evidence-based, but mainstream medicine in general is not evidence-based.

Or, to put it another way, this isn't FRINGE, because medicine isn't science. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, WAID, for using this excellent example of how Alex's view of fringe, may very well be fringe in itself. I think there's so conflation and confabulation going on. DVMt (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

So, did you all reach a conclusion? It doesn't really seem like the conversation was ever really finished. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I think we're agreeing to disagree. "Mainstream medicine in general is not evidence-based" ... right. Alexbrn 07:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. What we're seeing is how your interpretation of fringe is off-base. And since you're editing fringe-related topics with an incorrect perception, then this false idea gets promulgated. So, as far as I see it, the burden is on you to explain your position more succinctly. DVMt (talk) 13:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

LOL - tell you what, go to the Homeopathy article and argue that fringe doesn't apply because medicine is not a science. See how far you get with that. Let me quote you WP:FRINGE again: "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field". I understand there are people who want to change it so we do not define fringe "in a very broad sense", but their argument is not with me, it is with the guidance. Alexbrn 14:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You're conflating things, Alex. First, we aren't discussing Homeopathy, which is a red-herring. Second, I agree with you homeopathy is bunk, so we can clear that up right now. This thread is about MM for MSK. In this discussion here, you've made claims which we have rebutted. It's up to you to prove your point. You're also misrepresenting what WAID is saying. For instance, off-label use isn't exactly scientific, nor proven, and pretty controversial. Specifically it states Off-label use is the use of pharmaceutical drugs for an unapproved indication or in an unapproved age group, unapproved dosage, or unapproved form of administration.. Pot meet kettle. DVMt (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Fringe journals break

Alex, perhaps we're talking about different things when we say evidence-based. So imagine that you go into the doctor for an annual physical. Think about all the things that happen. Do you know anything about the evidence for those things? There's very little. In fact, there's some good evidence that you shouldn't be there at all. They check your weight: fine, but does the doctor talk to you about it? Probably not. The doctor's decision to skip that conversation is consistent with conventional medical practice, but a departure from evidence-based medicine. They take your temperature: fine, it's an extremely low-risk test, but there's zero evidence that it's anything other than a waste of time for a healthy person, so that's a departure from evidence-based medicine. They take your blood pressure: fine, and that's consistent with evidence-based medicine. They check your heart rate, even though there's zero evidence that this is a worthwhile test in a person who claims and appears to be healthy, so that's another departure from evidence-based medicine. They take a health history, but they ask questions for which there's no evidence (or even evidence against), and they omit other questions for which there is excellent evidence. Then the doctor refuses to discuss points in that history for which there is good evidence that he should (sexual health is the most commonly given example), which is another use of conventional medical practice while rejecting evidence-based practice. (The doctor will plead a lack of time if pressed on this point, but he does somehow find time to make small talk about your family or job.) He (I assume you see a male, since most people's GP matches their own gender) will listen to your heart and lungs (good evidence). He'll palpate your neck (there's some good evidence against doing this). And so forth, through the entire ritual.

Or let's take another common scenario: A month after this rather pointless physical, you have a bad cold, so you go to the doctor. A bad cough is the #1 reason to see a doctor.

When you make the appointment, do they tell you what the evidence says about whether you should be seeing the doctor at all? No. They follow the conventional model of letting the patient choose when to make an appointment. When you get there, they check your weight. Why? No good reason: your weight won't have changed much in the intervening month, and any variation will be put down to a change in clothing, hydration status, or when you last ate. They check your temperature (good evidence) and blood pressure (no good evidence that I've seen for this, but we'll say that they're doing it as general preventive medicine rather than related to your cold). They ask how long the cold's been going on (good) and what your symptoms are (good), but don't ask whether it's keeping you from sleeping well (bad) or whether you are exposed to tobacco, marijuana or other smoke (bad). With luck, they'll check your chart or ask if you have any special risk factors (you can't practice evidence-based medicine for a cold if you don't know whether the person has asthma, AIDS, or other risk factors). You tell them that you have a bad cough, a runny nose, a sore throat, and no fever. They look down your throat and do a rapid strep test, saying "strep is going around" (bad; strep is basically always going around, and the evidence says that they're not appropriate for people with your symptoms). They check for lung sounds (good) and maybe decide to send you off for a chest X-ray (maybe good, but probably bad in this case: it depends on the reason). Then they conclude that no fever and no inappropriate lung noises (and a clear chest X-ray, if one was ordered) means that you just have a boring old cold. You say that you really just want to stop coughing because your muscles hurt so much, so the doctor recommends over-the-counter cough syrup, which is conventional but a clear violation of evidence-based medicine. Then he suggests coming back if it hasn't cleared up in two weeks, which is a very conventional recommendation, but one that I've personally seen zero evidence to support.

Do you see how the pattern here? Quite a lot of what's happening in these very common medical encounters has nothing to do with the evidence, and everything to do with what patients have been culturally conditioned to expect. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

What a load of bollocks! You are so distant from reality (my reality anyway). This bears no real resemblance to my interaction with medical professionals. Alexbrn 18:52, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn you've just experienced cognitive dissonance. You've never even considered the possibility that conventional medicine wasn't solely based on evidence? We are culturally conditioned, we bring our Western lens, just as the East brings its own view. You are basing this on a n=1 as opposed to understanding the bigger picture. The science and art of medicine is much more than writing a script. The doctor-patient interaction is fundamental in the healing process. As is mind-body therapies and relaxation therapies. Body based manipulative therapies. Your personal opinion is getting in the way of facts, and evidence. The longer this thread goes, it seems like you are misinterpreting what is actually fringe and what is assumed to be fringe. Medicine isn't completely scientific. CAM isn't completely unscientific. These issues exists on a continuum and your seemingly cynical viewpoint isn't productive moving the discussion forward. I am sure many others would be interested in this conversation, as it is germane to many topics. Perhaps we can open this up for a RfC or DR. Maybe even move it to the Fringe Talk Page? There's been a lot of good evidence presented that supports we redefine fringe to be more specific and more contextual. The black and white, false dichotomy logical fallacy has been exposed, and we can really use this to try to improve things over a long-standing, chronic problem at WP, namely the science of CAM. WP asserts CAM is 100% pseudoscientific and not based on solid science. Well, neither is medicine. There is the art of medicine as well, it's those grey areas that need some enlightenment. DVMt (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn, perhaps you'd like to tell us what happened the last time you went to the doctor for a bad cold? Did they check your weight? Take your blood pressure? Recommend any treatments? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Why on earth would I go to a doctor with a bad cold? I imagine (if I did) they'd tell me to rest up and take paracetamol for any aches & pains, and possibly tell me off slightly for coming to the surgery with a cold. No GP has ever taken my blood pressure and I have only been weighed once, around 20 years ago, as a matter of routine, when signing on for a new practice. The doctor said I was a bit overweight (she was right). Alexbrn 05:38, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

You go to the doctor with a bad cold to achieve three things that you can't easily achieve any other way: (a) to make sure that you don't have pneumonia, (b) to make sure that you don't have strep throat and (c) to get a prescription for codeine, which actually is an effective cough suppressant.

If your GPs have failed to take your blood pressure during the last couple of decades, then they have, by that omission, failed to follow evidence-based medicine in treating you. There's pretty good evidence behind routine screening for blood pressure (just not necessarily in people with an acute illness). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, so I wouldn't go to the doctor for a cold unless things were really bad. On blood pressure, here in the UK, the NHS these days routinely invites people for this kind of routine screening every five years past the age of 40. For myself, I'm outside of that since I am in a comparatively more watchful regime overseen by my cancer nurse, which means I have had blood pressure readings taken before/after surgery. I am struggling to see what this interrogation of my medical experience has to do with whether or not we should be allowing charlatans to advocate their wares in Misplaced Pages via fringe journals. Alexbrn 19:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

We are talking about whether there might be a difference between "conventional medicine" and "evidence-based medicine". It appears that there is: some conventional medicine is evidence-based, and some of it is not. In your opinion, is the non-evidence-based part of conventional medicine supported by "charlatans" publishing in "fringe journals"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Even though you may not go to a GP for a minor cold Alex, it is common practice for many people to go to their physician for exactly that reason. There are certainly people who wait until things are "really bad" (sometimes too long as a matter of fact), but many don't and I think that's important to keep in mind. Though I see personal anecdotes coming into play here and it's nice to see everyone sharing their own subjective experience, the fact remains that it only represents your own experience and your own experience may not be representative of what happens on a population-based level. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 20:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Alex, I don't see this as interrogation, but rather you sharing your personal experience. We're just asking you to clarify your position. You seem to have confused EBM is synonymous with conventional medicine. We've been using examples of how this is not the case, and these are legit cases of how things work in health care in general. Neuraxis (talk) 03:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

You're all tearing into a strawman. Obviously medicine at large has aspects other than applied science / EBM. But those are not altmed; altmed is when ineffective things are pushed as an alternative to effective treatment. Yes, in the course of a consultation family doctors may offer a friendly chat; and yes that is not necessarily EBM, but it is neither fringe nor altmed; if it became the "Talking Cure" & proponents claimed without evidence that it was effective for treating disease, then it would be fringe, sources would no doubt describe it as such as WP would duly frame it applying fringe guidance. (And no doubt we'd have Talking Cure therapists here on Misplaced Pages trying to fluff its article, just like we've got homeopaths/chiropractors/osteopaths today). Alexbrn 07:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn says, "altmed is when ineffective things are pushed as an alternative to effective treatment"

But that's exactly what my doctor above did, Alex: he told the patient to take a completely ineffective (but FDA-approved and strictly conventional) cough suppressant as an alternative to writing a prescription for one of the ones that actually works. Note that sentence: "the doctor recommends over-the-counter cough syrup, which is conventional but a clear violation of evidence-based medicine". It's a violation of EBM because dextromethorphan is utterly ineffective as a cough suppressant.

According to your personal definition, did that doc engage in altmed, or not? Or is the MD, despite doing exactly what you decry as "pushing an ineffective treatment as an alternative to effective treatment", still not engaging in altmed? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

From what you're saying it sounds more like a recommendation made in ignorance rather than being "pushed as an alternative". I think I could usefully refine my definition by bringing out the "commitment to the cause" element ... Alexbrn 16:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that it's ignorance; in most cases, I suspect that it's simply that the patient expects the doctor to prescribe some sort of medicine, and suggesting a spoonful of honey (which actually works/is evidence-based, at least for the tickle-in-the-back-of-your-throat sort) is not a socially acceptable prescription.

I think what would make more sense is to divide medicine up like this:

This reflects the significant role that social acceptance plays in determining whether something is "altmed" (or "complementary", as opposed to "just normal"). The things that society in general (not merely up-to-date experts) accepts as normal medical treatments are "conventional" medicine, regardless of whether they work. The things that society in general does not accept as normal medical treatments are "complementary or alternative medicine". Things that are effective (or not) are things that actually work (or not), regardless of whether or not they're accepted by society at the moment.

The "at the moment" matters a lot. If you go look up the history of some very old interventions, you'll find that they fall in an out of favor. Swaddling newborns in Western cultures is a good example of this: it was considered normal and effective until the early 19th century. Then it was a horrible imposition on the baby's free will and useless. And now it's widely accepted, promoted at hospitals all over the Western world, and known to be effective at promoting sleep, health and growth.

Swaddling went from conventional to alternative and back to conventional. What people believed about its efficacy changed over time. It actually remained effective the entire time. The fact that it's currently accepted makes it conventional. The fact that it works makes it evidence-based. The fact that there are people fanatically dedicated to promoting it (one doctor has written a book promoting it because he believes that swaddling will reduce the number of babies that are murdered by their parents) is neither here nor there. "Commitment to the cause" isn't obviously relevant; what matters is how society as a whole—the millions and millions of people who make up "society"—happen to categorize it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Interesting matrix - so the question would be how to the cells map onto altmed and/or "fringe". According to Misplaced Pages, altmed is "any practice that is put forward as having the healing effects of medicine but is not based on evidence gathered using the scientific method". This it seems is exclusively based on a definition from the (American) National Science Board. The NHS has a different take, saying "Treatments are sometimes used instead of conventional medicine, with the intention of treating or curing a health condition. The NCCAM says that use of treatments in this way can be called alternative medicine". and helpfully also say "There is no universally agreed definition of complementary and alternative medicine". One thing I'm getting from this is that our Alternative medicine article needs some work! Alexbrn 10:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

So Alex, are you stating there is no evidence-based CAM? Neuraxis (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No, he's saying that it's difficult to figure out what CAM actually is. It's not hard to go look up individual treatments or fields (just find a source and see whether it says "Foo is alternative"), but if you're looking for a wide definitions that covers everything, it's difficult. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

To a first approximation (to a first approximation, the entire universe is made of Hydrogen), I'd divide up the matrix like this:

Within this, it's necessary to recognize that I've drawn lines between them, but both of these measures exist on a continuum.

There may be almost enough public acceptance to consider a treatment normal medicine; chiropractic for acute back pain falls into that category. (In fact, the chiropractic industry may be stretching the altmed label beyond endurance in the US, because it's probably good for their income to maintain cash-based practices instead of having their patients expect them to do health insurance paperwork.) There are also altmed treatments that are far less accepted than homeopathy. One problem with "acceptance" is that it's going to vary by culture. (My thinking is that anything that is equal to, or less socially accepted than homeopathy, in whatever the main culture is, deserves full-scale FRINGE treatment, at least as far as the 'social' side is concerned.)

For evidence-based, there are treatments that are proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. There are treatments that are probably working, at least a little, but the next paper could change that. There are treatments that are probably useless, but the literature is divided; there are treatments that are proven worthless—we have gone past "different people disagree" to "even proponents think it's busted".

Complicating this item: There are treatments that are still completely experimental e.g., anything that belongs at Experimental cancer treatment, and there are treatments that apparently work, but have little clinical relevance. Imagine a diet pill that, if you took it every day for a year, caused a weight loss of just 10 grams a year: it's a "real" weight loss, so it "works", but who cares if you lose ten grams in a year? (My thinking is that anything that has reached the evidence-of-not-working state deserves full-scale FRINGE treatment, at least as far as the 'evidence' side is concerned.)

So this isn't really a bright-line, black-and-white matrix, but I think it might be a useful way of considering the difference between some different categories. Also worth mentioning is that the boxes aren't equal in size: there's far more in the "conventional and evidence-based" group than in the "alternative and evidence-based" group. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It looks reasonable; I suppose using different definitions the cells would be labelled differently, so by the National Science Board definition, cough syrup would be altmed too (which seems odd to me). And I'm not sure how "alternative" honey is: the NHS advises "The simplest and cheapest way to treat a short-term cough may be a homemade cough remedy containing honey and lemon". But as you say, these lines are not clean divisions.

We can exempt ourselves from the difficulty of categorizing experimental treatments because it seems intent is a common component of definitions of alternative medicine, and experimental treatments aren't put forward as being cures (except by some notable quacks).

Another factor here is the basic science. As David Gorski is fond of pointing out, there is no point in considering evidence around Homeopathy because basic science tells us it cannot be effective. Homeopathy is an obvious case, but altmed offerings which have this pseudoscientific/non-scientific aspect can also get the fringe categorization from this avenue of thinking. Alexbrn 08:10, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Appealing to David Gorski's authority (logical fallacy) is really reaching down. Basic science sciences research is broader and this is a good resource as to what it actually is. This 'intent' point you bring about is smoke and mirrors, for it is pure speculation and conjecture. Again, no one here is disputing homeopathy is one the fringe side. So, using this red herring example, yet again, isn't necessary. As WAID suggests, chiropractic does have scientific evidence in favour of comparable effectiveness for specific MSK conditions (low back pain being the most widely recognized). But, further, there are also basic sciences research allowing us to know the mechanism of action. This 2012 review discusses how SMT results in plastic changes in the CNS that address aberrant sensorimotor integtation. Is this fringe and pseudoscience? Neuraxis (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Why do you say that dextromethorphan is "alternative" in the UK? It's a "Pharmacy Only Medication" in the UK, which means that it's just as "alternative" as clotrimazole for athlete's foot or hydrocortisone for poison ivy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Mentorship

Would have preferred to have asked privately, but I feel that I would benefit from having you as a WP mentor. You're a moderate like myself, and I respect you and the fact that you're a good listener. Hope you take my request into consideration. Regards, DVMt (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm flattered by the request, but realistically, I can't commit the time to mentor anyone, and I wouldn't want to mislead you by even trying to. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Not a problem. Thanks for the timely response! :) DVMt (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-21

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Tech News updates

• Tech News is one year old this week; thank you for being with us!

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf5) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on May 15. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on May 20, and all Wikipedias on May 22 (calendar).
• The jQuery JavaScript library was updated on May 16. Please check that your gadgets and scripts still work.
• MediaViewer was enabled for all users on the Kannada (kn) and Telugu (te) Wikipedias on May 13. It will be enabled on the German (de), English (en), Italian (it) and Russian (ru) Wikipedias and on all Wikisource wikis on May 22. Feedback is welcome.
• VisualEditor was added as a beta feature to Wikimedia Commons on May 15. You can enable it in your preferences.
• You can read a summary of the Wikimedia technical report for April 2014.

VisualEditor news

• VisualEditor's buttons and icons can now be accessed using keyboard keys.
• VisualEditor's new citation tool now matches templates like {{cite_web}} and not just {{Cite web}}.
• VisualEditor's welcome message will no longer be shown to users who have already seen it.
• VisualEditor now shows a clearer message when you cancel an edit.
• The toolbar of the PageTriage extension will no longer be visible inside VisualEditor.

Future software changes

• User ID number will no longer be visible in preferences.

Problems

• For several hours on May 16, there were problems with loading gadgets on some wikis due to a server problem.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Causes of NHL

Regarding the discussion on PCBs and NHL: The statement as written is simply not factually true. The reason it is not true is that the cited papers are not "studies" or "original research" but merely reviews or summary papers which discuss actual studies done by others. Nor do they establish "cause." The cited summary papers by Kramer and Freeman were paid for by plaintiffs' counsel for purposes of this pending litigation are the only writings on the subject that use the word "cause." Epidemiologists writing the results of their research are generally not medical doctors and therefore do not report the statistical results of their studies in terms of "cause"; rather they report their results as statistical "associations." A true statement would be that some epidemiology studies show an association between PCB exposure and NHL, and others do not show such an association.

I am posting this on the NHL talk page. Furthermore, this comment has been reproduced on the talk page of editor , both of whom have been involved in this discussion. User:Glynn Young — Preceding undated comment added 15:36, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I have replied at Talk:Non-Hodgkin lymphoma#New language for the Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter—May 2014

Did you know?

The cite menu offers quick access to up to five citation templates.  If your wiki has enabled the "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽" menu, press "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽" and select the appropriate template from the menu.

Existing citations that use these templates can be edited either using the "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽" tool or by selecting the reference and choosing the "⧼visualeditor-dialogbutton-reference-tooltip⧽" item in the "Insert" menu.

Read the user guide for more information.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor team has mostly worked on the new citation tool, improving performance, reducing technical debt, and other infrastructure needs.

The biggest change in the last few weeks is the new citation template menu, labeled "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽". The new citation menu offers a locally configurable list of citation templates on the main toolbar. It adds or opens references using the simplified template dialog that was deployed last month. This tool is in addition to the "⧼visualeditor-dialogbutton-reference-tooltip⧽" item in the "Insert" menu, and it is not displayed unless it has been configured for that wiki. To enable this tool on your wiki, see the instructions at VisualEditor/Citation tool.

Eventually, the VisualEditor team plans to add autofill features for these citations. When this long-awaited feature is created, you could add an ISBN, URL, DOI or other identifier to the citation tool, and VisualEditor would automatically fill in as much information for that source as possible. The concept drawings can be seen at mw:VisualEditor/Design/Reference Dialog, and your ideas about making referencing quick and easy are still wanted.

• There is a new Beta Feature for setting content language and direction.  This allows editors who have opted in to use the "Language" tool in the "Insert" menu to add HTML span tags that label text with the language and as being left-to-right (LTR) or right-to-left (RTL), like this:  <span lang="en" dir="ltr">English</span>. This tool is most useful for pages whose text combines multiple languages with different directions, common on Right-to-Left wikis.
• The tool for editing mathematics formulae in VisualEditor has been slightly updated and is now available to all users, as the "⧼math-visualeditor-mwmathinspector-title⧽" item in the "Insert" menu. It uses LaTeX like in the wikitext editor.
• The layout of template dialogs has been changed, putting the label above the field.  Parameters are now called "fields", to avoid a technical term that many editors are unfamiliar with.
• TemplateData has been expanded:  You can now add "suggested" parameters in TemplateData, and VisualEditor will display them in the template dialogs like required ones.  "Suggested" is recommended for parameters that are commonly used, but not actually required to make the template work.  There is also a new type for TemplateData parameters: wiki-file-name, for file names.  The template tool can now tell you if a parameter is marked as being obsolete.
• Some templates that previously displayed strangely due to absolute CSS positioning hacks should now display correctly.
• Several messages have changed: The notices shown when you save a page have been merged into those used in the wikitext editor, for consistency.  The message shown when you "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cancel⧽" out of an edit is clearer. The beta dialog notice, which is shown the first time you open VisualEditor, will be hidden for logged-in users via a user preference rather than a cookie.  As a result of this change, the beta notice will show up one last time for all logged-in users on their next VisualEditor use after Thursday's upgrade.
• Adding a category that is a redirect to another category prompts you to add the target category instead of the redirect.
• In the "Images and media" dialog, it is no longer possible to set a redundant border for thumbnail and framed images.
• There is a new Template Documentation Editor for TemplateData.  You can test it by editing a documentation subpage (not a template page) at Mediawiki.org: edit mw:Template:Sandbox/doc, and then click "Manage template documentation" above the wikitext edit box.  If your community would like to use this TemplateData editor at your project, please contact product manager James Forrester or file an enhancement request in Bugzilla.
• There have been multiple small changes to the appearance:  External links are shown in the same light blue color as in MediaWiki.  This is a lighter shade of blue than the internal links.  The styling of the "Style text" (character formatting) drop-down menu has been synchronized with the recent font changes to the Vector skin.  VisualEditor dialogs, such as the "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-savedialog⧽" dialog, now use a "loading" animation of moving lines, rather than animated GIF images.  Other changes were made to the appearance upon opening a page in VisualEditor which should make the transition between reading and editing be smoother.
• The developers merged in many minor fixes and improvements to MediaWiki interface integration (e.g., edit notices), and made VisualEditor handle Education Program pages better.
• At the request of the community, VisualEditor has been deployed to Commons as an opt-in. It is currently available by default for 161 Misplaced Pages language editions and by opt-in through Beta Features at all others, as well as on several non-Misplaced Pages sites.

Looking ahead:  The toolbar from the PageTriage extension will no longer be visible inside VisualEditor. More buttons and icons will be accessible from the keyboard.  The "Keyboard shortcuts" link will be moved out of the "Page options" menu, into the "Help" menu. Support for upright image sizes (preferred for accessibility) and inline images is being developed. You will be able to see the Table of Contents while editing. Looking further out, the developers are also working on support for viewing and editing hidden HTML comments. VisualEditor will be available to all users on mobile devices and tablet computers. It will be possible to upload images to Commons from inside VisualEditor.

If you have questions or suggestions for future improvements, or if you encounter problems, please let everyone know by posting a note at mw:VisualEditor/Feedback or by joining the office hours on Thursday, 19 June 2014 at 10:00 UTC. If you'd like to get this newsletter on your own page (about once a month), please subscribe at w:en:Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Newsletter for English Misplaced Pages only or at meta:VisualEditor/Newsletter for any project. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) 22:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-22

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf6) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on May 22. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on May 27, and all Wikipedias on May 29 (calendar).
• MediaViewer will be enabled on all Wikisource wikis on May 29, and on the German (de) and English (en) Wikipedias on June 3. Feedback is welcome.

VisualEditor news

• VisualEditor's welcome message and wikitext warning now say that you can switch to source mode editing and keep your edits without saving them.
• A bug that caused files not to appear after saving edits in the File: namespace was fixed last week.
• VisualEditor tabs will no longer appear in namespaces where VisualEditor is disabled.
• It is now possible to edit inline images with VisualEditor; many minor bugs related to images have also been fixed.
• VisualEditor will no longer convert spaces to underscores inside links to pages in namespaces that include spaces in their names.

Future software changes

• Wikimedia Labs will stop working for about 10 minutes around 18:00 UTC on May 30 due to a server upgrade.
• It will soon no longer be possible to upload different files under the same name at the same time using the UploadWizard tool.
• Links to TIFF, DjVu or PDF files created with the syntax ] will now show an image caption if there is any text after page number; previously they caused the given page to appear.
• You will soon see information about global blocks for IP addresses on their contributions page on your local wiki.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

08:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Sugar candy

Hello! Your submission of Sugar candy at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 23:30, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Great mindless think alike

As the saying goes, great mindless think alike.

• Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Widener_Library
• Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Sugar_candy

EEng (talk) 23:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

It is a highly variable process. People don't agree on what is really required; the only point of true agree is that they really want other people to quit telling them that they screwed up. And since those other people feel free to make up standards in their complaints, it is very hard for the DYK group to stick to their written standards. If they follow the standards, they get complaints from uninvolved editors; if they don't, they get complaints from nominators about making up rules as they go along (because they are making them up as they go along).

I usually don't think it's worth bothering with, and wouldn't have in this case, except that I'd recently seen yet another complaint about DYK "always" having the same boring types of articles (roughly, promotional articles and things that 99% of readers obviously won't care about, or, for extra credit, spammy, US-centric, self-promotional articles about obscure insects that almost nobody cares about—you know how complaints like that overstate the situation). So here's a general article on a subject that anyone can understand... and if it helps reduce their complaints, then great, but I probably won't bother with another DYK for a long time. I just don't care enough to mess with it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I was mostly thinking about the mindless exclusion of list-material-that-could-be-run-into-text-if-you-really-insist (in your case) and explanatory-text-that-could-be-run-into-text-if-you-really-insist (in my case). Beyond that, my complaint about DYK is that it encourages (as I said somewhere) fake-finished slapdash articles (devoid of cite-needed or clarify-needed tags etc.).

Over and over I'm told (though nothing in the rules say this) that DYK articles are supposed to be 5 days old yet completely tag-free, which can only achieved in one of two ways: (1) by "accidentally" leaving out tags you know ought to be there; or (2) degrading the article by removing routine, uncontroversial and almost certainly sourceable which just for the moment lacks a RS.

Whereas FA should be WP's best work, DYK should be frankly works-in-progress i.e. the attitude should be, "Did you know ? -- if so, then you might have the knowledge and interest to improve this frankly incomplete article on Subject S! Click here to help!" That would make sense. Instead we present, linked from main page, article that confuse the novice about how WP content is developed, and disgust the knowledgeable with their insipid writing and abundant untagged problems. EEng (talk) 04:33, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a problem, isn't it, EEng?

Do you remember ever running across the early "rules", which included an admonishment to "Always leave something undone" in articles? The idea was that it encouraged collaborators and especially that it gave new people an obvious place to start. I think it would be a good idea for DYK to resurrect. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

In a "while" (days or weeks, depending) I'm going to be disputating this very issue at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Jean_Berko_Gleason (where the reviewer thinks notability is the threshold for article content) and at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Jack_and_Ed_Biddle (where the reviewer seems to want all kinds of minor clarify-needed resolved -- again, a main-page appearance will be the perfect time to attract someone who knows the answers and where sources might be). Perhaps you will keep an eye on them. EEng (talk) 10:52, 29 May 2014 (UTC) P.S. For the record

I agree with you, but it's important to remember the pressures on the regulars there. If they do what you and I believe is right for this particular thing, then they get people of the "the Main Page should be perfect because it's an honor to appear there" persuasion yelling at them. An effective solution needs to provide them some insulation against this pressure. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:40, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-23

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf7) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on May 29. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on June 3, and to all Wikipedias on June 5 (calendar).
• CirrusSearch was enabled as the primary search method on all Wikipedias with less than 100,000 pages on May 30.

VisualEditor news

• Templates that redirect to other templates now get the TemplateData of their target.
• The toolbar of the PageTriage extension will no longer be visible after you save an edit with VisualEditor.
• VisualEditor now checks if your browser supports SVG files to avoid displaying broken icons.
• There is now a new type for TemplateData parameters: date for dates and times in the ISO 8601 format.

Future software changes

• MediaViewer will be enabled on the German (de) and English (en) Wikipedias on June 3. Feedback is welcome.
• You will soon see a warning if you visit a contributions page for a user that does not exist.
• The search tab will soon be removed from user preferences. You will be able to set your search preferences on Special:Search.
• You will soon see a label next to the little triangle arrow for the Actions menu in the Vector skin (screenshot).

Problems

• For about 20 minutes on May 29, all wikis were broken due to a configuration error.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

08:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment

I'd like your feedback on this: "The burden of proof is in the lap of those who wish to present an idea. An idea is thus false until proven positive rather than the other way around." This statement seems to be illogical. How can something by default be automatically false and not neutral? Am I misunderstood? DVMt (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Well... yes, the statement is false as written. (It is not neutral, either:  the truth value of the presented idea is unknown.)

But this statement also happens to be a nearly accurate description of how some parts of some scientific professions work. It's a good model for researchers (although technically, a new proposal is potentially false, not definitely false). It's a poor model for clinicians. For example, physicians who are committed to evidence-based medicine will say that unless and until there is good-quality evidence that parachutes reduce trauma in people who jump out of airplanes, then nobody should use a parachute. (If you haven't seen it before, then PMID 14684649 is a systematic review that finds no good-quality evidence that parachutes work.) If taken to an extreme, this can be very harmful. If taken with some common sense—or even with a desire to do something other than wring your hands, on the grounds that you hate to see someone suffering and the insufficiently studied but conventional treatment might work—then it's probably okay. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Your input would be appreciated

Hi! This was opened up yesterday and is directly related to this ongoing discussion at your talk page. Your comments would be helpful regarding whether or MM for MSK is currently pseudoscientific and fringe. The policies contained therein might be in need of a bit of review and modernization that helps delineate the subject matter more succinctly. Neuraxis (talk) 19:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for help with possibly copyrighted images

Hello WAID! I don't believe we've directly interacted before. It's always a pleasure to see you around and I don't believe I've every seen you say something that is not reasonable, grounded, and with a view to consensus in mind.

There's another user who posts an inordinate amount of dissection images of questionable value on Anatomy articles.

Many have a copyright tag viewable in the image: File:Slide3ddd.JPG

I worry these may be deleted en masse at some arbitrary future time, so I'm not particularly inclined to rename to more useful names when I see them, or add captions. I can't find anywhere to ask about this on commons and I find the environment both confusing and very unwelcoming. I was wondering where I can make this request? I'd like it clarified because I do believe these images have a useful place in commons, but it may be good to clarify this somewhere. I'm sure there is not a question about WP you couldn't answer, hence my request here! --LT910001 (talk) 00:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi LT910001,

If it's really okay, then there should be a note on each and every single file description page with an OTRS case number, after they have have verified permission from the copyright holder (who really could be the uploader, but they're supposed to get the paperwork sorted). I'm guessing that most of these images are also published at http://www.anatomyumftm.com/ which has a note about the Wikimedian contributor's name—so I'd guess that it's probably okay. However, User:Moonriddengirl is the real expert on these things (and also one of the kindest Wikipedians ever), and she will know more about what to do than I. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Aw. :) I would agree with WhatamIdoing that the mention of the user is very helpful, and I see that the user has been around this block before (Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/All uploads by User:Anatomist90). So there has been OTRS communication. A clearer statement of license on that website would be very helpful, even if it were just a note saying "All images uploaded to commons by User:Anatomist90 licensed blahblah". But what I would do on transferring any of those images to Commons is note that the uploader is acknowledged and link to that deletion debate, with a note that OTRS confirmation of identity is indicated there. --Moonriddengirl 10:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. From my understanding images under copyright that aren't licensed are deleted in commons. This happens at an arbitrary timepoint, and I was concerned that if I start editing these images my editing would be in vain as the image could thereafter be deleted anyway. So from what what you say about the OTRS ticket, I shouldn't worry about this. Thanks for your prompt reply, --LT910001 (talk) 03:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-24

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf8) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 5. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on June 10, and to all Wikipedias on June 12 (calendar).
• You can now use guided tours on the Arabic (ar), Bengali (bn) and Norwegian (no) Wikipedias. If you want this tool on your wiki, you need to translate it and ask in Bugzilla.

VisualEditor news

• You should no longer be able to add empty references with VisualEditor.
• The "use an existing reference" button in the reference tool is now shown as disabled, rather than hidden, when the reference has content.
• You will now see category contents again after saving an edit to a category page with VisualEditor.

Future software changes

• MediaViewer will be enabled by default on all wikis on June 12. Feedback is welcome.
• You will be able to use information from Wikidata directly in Wikiquote pages starting on June 10.
• On wikis with the Translate extension enabled, translation administrators will soon be able to use the page migration tool to import existing translations to the new system.
• You will soon see metadata on file description pages for Ogg files (example video, example audio). Some metadata with non-English characters may need to be purged or transcoded to UTF-8 before they show correctly.
• Templates containing <ref> or <references> tags will no longer need dummy parameters to prevent caching.
• You will no longer be able to use Special:Thanks directly. The page will soon show an error message when you visit it.
• Hovercards will no longer flicker.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:39, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

In re your reply above

Agreed, What, agreed. And understand, that you were not the one I was trying to re-direct, in terms of time and attitudes, above. Cheers, admire you, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 02:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Sugar candy

Hello! Your submission of Sugar candy at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Storye book (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-25

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Reminder

• You can subscribe to the wikitech-ambassadors mailing list to get news more quickly and to send feedback or report problems.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf9) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 12. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on June 17, and to all Wikipedias on June 19 (calendar).
• You can now read a summary of the Wikimedia technical report for May 2014.

VisualEditor news

• You can now easily see the target of a link or other information using the context menu.
• When you edit a reference, you can now empty it and click the "use an existing reference" button to switch it to re-use another reference.
• You can now add and edit {{DISPLAYTITLE}} and __DISAMBIG__ in the page settings menu.
• The tool to insert special characters is now wider and simpler; the order of mathematical symbols is now correct.

Future software changes

• Media Viewer will be enabled by default on all wikis on June 19. Feedback is welcome.
• You will no longer be able to use navigation popups and Hovercards at the same time.
• You will no longer see image thumbnails on search results pages on Wikibooks and Wikisource wikis.
• It will soon be possible to globally rename global (SUL) users.
• Tablet users will be redirected to the mobile view of Wikimedia wikis starting on June 17.
• The special page that lists most linked-to templates will soon include pages from all namespaces; it will also be renamed to Special:MostTranscludedPages.
• An IRC discussion about Phabricator will take place on June 17 at 17:30 UTC on the channel #wikimedia-office on freenode (time conversion). You can also read a blog post about the upcoming switch to Phabricator.
• You can now comment on the draft 2014-15 goals of the Wikimedia Foundation engineering department.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Cancer terminology

Hey WAID. I have literally spent the last few weeks trying to figure out cancer terminology. It makes ones head spin.

WHO more or less appears to use neoplasm and tumor interchangeably. This even applies to leukemia. Additionally I have been trying to update us to their 2008-2010 nomenclature. See discussion here Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:26, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion on linking to wikias

Are you still supporting what you said few years back in place such as Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_21#Wikias? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:32, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, as a description of the community's practice, that is still true, except that ELN was created in the meantime, so problems should be reported there.

Personally, I've never been excited about a link to an open wiki, no matter how large and stable it is, so you can expect no more than tepid support from me in any particular dispute. I'm happy to correct errors in people's understanding of the guideline (e.g., someone wrongly saying that all links to all wikis are prohibited), but I haven't yet been unhappy to find a discussion close with consensus against a link to another wiki. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

AlexNewArtBot/MedicineSearchResult

Hiya. If you've currently got no solution for filtering the list for unpatrolled pages (like my old (crappy) script), would you like a rewrite? fredgandt 03:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fred! It feels like it's been ages since I've seen you around.

No, I don't have a current solution, and I did really like what you had written. However, I've also not had time for tracking that page this year. If you want to write one, I'd be happy to test it for you, but I don't know how much daily use it might get in the near term, if I'm the only person interested (and I'd hate to have you go to the trouble of creating something that didn't get used as much as it deserves!). I think that User:Ironholds has been doing more page patrolling than I; maybe he would know who else might benefit from a way to do page patrolling by subject area? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Frankly it's kind of a pain to do :(. But in terms of usefulness, there have been some requests historically, but I don't recall them well enough to point them out, I'm afraid. Ironholds (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Okies. I'll leave it on a back burner, but let you know when I get around to it (relatively soon since I'm in the mood). I think (honestly can't remember) I made it work on any AlexNewArtBot/*****SearchResult page, so other projects might also like an updated (working) version.

I appreciate your consideration of my time and effort :-)

"I'll be back" fredgandt 22:53, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much done, but for what is no surprise to me - a slight error! :-/

However: it's much faster, and in theory more accurate (cough) or at least will be soon. Even in it's current state, it's not bad.

So you've no excuses now! Get back to patrolling!

Take care, and I'll see you again in another year or two ;-) fredgandt 20:56, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-26

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf10) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 19. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on June 24, and to all Wikipedias on June 26 (calendar).

VisualEditor news

• You can now drag-and-drop selections of content, not just files and templates.
• When dragging an item, you will now see a line that helps you to drop it.
• You can now only move an image to the start of a paragraph, not to the middle of it, so you don't accidentally split it.
• You will now be warned if you add wikitext to file captions and references.

Future software changes

• You will no longer be able to upload files on wikis that do not have any copyright tags.
• CirrusSearch will be enabled as the primary search method on additional 70 new wikis, including Meta-Wiki and Wikimedia Incubator, during the next week.
• CirrusSearch results will soon take into account categories, the first paragraph and the wikitext of a page. You will also be able to use regular expressions to search the wikitext. It will take a few days for the changes to be enabled on all wikis.
• You will soon be able to watch translations for e-mail notifications without receiving an e-mail when they are reviewed by another translator.
• An IRC meeting to organize old high priority MediaWiki bug reports will take place on June 24 at 17:00 UTC on the channel #wikimedia-office on freenode (time conversion).

Problems

• On June 19, all wikis were broken for about 15 minutes due to a high server load.
• Between June 13 and June 15 there were problems with the scaling of video files due to a configuration error.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion is not clean up listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Misplaced Pages:Deletion is not clean up. Since you had some involvement with the Misplaced Pages:Deletion is not clean up redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Launchballer 08:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor global newsletter—June 2014

Did you know?

The character formatting menu, or "Style text" menu lets you set bold, italic, and other text styles. "Clear formatting" removes all text styles and removes links to other pages.

Do you think that clear formatting should remove links? Are there changes you would like to see for this menu? Share your opinion at MediaWiki.org.

The user guide has information about how to use VisualEditor.

The VisualEditor team is mostly working to fix bugs, improve performance, reduce technical debt, and other infrastructure needs. You can find on Mediawiki.org weekly updates detailing recent work.

• They have moved the "Keyboard shortcuts" link out of the "Page options" menu, into the "Help" menu. Within dialog boxes, buttons are now more accessible (via the Tab key) from the keyboard.
• You can now see the target of the link when you click on it, without having to open the inspector.
• The team also expanded TemplateData: You can now add a parameter type  "date" for dates and times in the ISO 8601 format, and  "boolean" for values which are true or false. Also, templates that redirect to other templates (like {{citeweb}} → {{cite web}}) now get the TemplateData of their target (bug 50964). You can test TemplateData by editing mw:Template:Sandbox/doc.
• Category: and File: pages now display their contents correctly after saving an edit (bug 65349, bug 64239)
• They have also improved reference editing: You should no longer be able to add empty citations with VisualEditor (bug 64715), as with references. When you edit a reference, you can now empty it and click the "use an existing reference" button to replace it with another reference instead. 
• It is now possible to edit inline images with VisualEditor. Remember that inline images cannot display captions, so existing captions get removed. Many other bugs related to images were also fixed.
• You can now add and edit {{DISPLAYTITLE}} and __DISAMBIG__ in the "Page options" menu, rounding out the full set of page options currently planned.
• The tool to insert special characters is now wider and simpler.

Looking ahead

The VisualEditor team has posted a draft of their goals for the next fiscal year. You can read them and suggest changes on MediaWiki.org.

The team posts details about planned work on VisualEditor's roadmap. You will soon be able to drag-and-drop text as well as images. If you drag an image to a new place, it won't let you place it in the middle of a paragraph. All dialog boxes and windows will be simplified based on user testing and feedback. The VisualEditor team plans to add autofill features for citations. Your ideas about making referencing quick and easy are still wanted. Support for upright image sizes is being developed. The designers are also working on support for viewing and editing hidden HTML comments and adding rows and columns to tables.

Supporting your wiki

Please read VisualEditor/Citation tool for information on configuring the new citation template menu, labeled "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽". This menu will not appear unless it has been configured on your wiki.

If you speak a language other than English, we need your help with translating the user guide. The guide is out of date or incomplete for many languages, and what's on your wiki may not be the most recent translation. Please contact me if you need help getting started with translation work on MediaWiki.org.

VisualEditor can be made available to most non-Misplaced Pages projects. If your community would like to test VisualEditor, please contact product manager James Forrester or file an enhancement request in Bugzilla.

Please share your questions, suggestions, or problems by posting a note at mw:VisualEditor/Feedback or by joining the office hours on Saturday, 19 July 2014 at 21:00 UTC (daytime for the Americas and Pacific Islands) or on Thursday, 14 August 2014 at 9:00 UTC (daytime for Europe, Middle East, Asia).

To change your subscription to this newsletter, please see the subscription pages on Meta or the English Misplaced Pages. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 04:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Candy bar

Per your comment at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Food and drink – Snack bars, check out the new Candy bar article, and please feel free to expand it. Thanks! NorthAmerica 10:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Further input still appreciated

At Misplaced Pages:External_links/Noticeboard#Honorverse_wikia. In particular, you were cited at Talk:Honorverse#Can_we_link_honorverse.wikia.com_from_external_links.3F and we still disagree there, even with regards to which position your comments support. Any help in breaking this deadlock would be appreciated, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-27

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf11) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 26. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on July 1, and to all Wikipedias on July 3 (calendar).

VisualEditor news

• Context menus in VisualEditor will no longer flicker and disappear when you insert a new reference, formula, image, etc.
• A bug that prevented relocating items due to cache was fixed last week.
• VisualEditor will no longer scroll to the bottom of the page when you try to edit section 0. When you try to add a formula, VisualEditor will no longer scroll to the top of the page.
• Links to category pages or file pages added with VisualEditor will now work correctly.

Future software changes

• You will no longer be able to upload files on wikis that do not have any copyright tags.
• Toolserver tools will be stopped on June 30. Please make sure to change gadgets that link to the Toolserver to point to Tool Labs instead.
• CirrusSearch will be enabled on June 30 as the primary search method on 34 new wikis, including the Czech (cs), Danish (da), Finnish (fi) and Hebrew (he) Wikipedias.
• All Wikimedia wikis will be using a security method called perfect forward secrecy starting on July 1. If you see a problem, please report it.
• Starting on July 1, it will be possible to globally rename global (SUL) users.
• You will soon see block information when you visit the contributions page or try to edit the user page or user talk page of a user who is affected by an IP range block.
• You will soon be able to use {{!}} as a magic word to produce the pipe character, for instance for use in tables.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

06:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-28

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Tech News updates

• We are looking for contributors to help write a new issue every week. If you would like to help, please contact us.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf12) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 3. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on July 8, and to all Wikipedias on July 10 (calendar).
• CirrusSearch was enabled on July 1 as the primary search method on 36 new wikis, including the Norwegian (no), Portuguese (pt) and Ukrainian (uk) Wikipedias.
• It is now possible to create Atom or RSS feeds for Word of the Day, Word of the Week and similar entries on Wiktionary wikis.
• You can now use a graphical interface to edit TemplateData information on the English (en), French (fr) and Italian (it) Wikipedias.

VisualEditor news

• Saving an edit with VisualEditor will now be much faster.
• You can now add a caption when you add a file to a page with VisualEditor. You can also change the file to a different one and keep the existing caption.
• When you switch to the Edit source tab, you are now asked to keep your changes. You no longer need to find the option in the menus.
• The reference tool that adds empty <ref></ref> tags is now at the bottom of the Cite menu, below references that use templates like {{Cite web}}.
• Context menus will no longer be shown over items that you can edit directly, for example formulæ.

Future software changes

• Starting on July 9, it will be possible to globally rename global (SUL) users. The feature was first scheduled for July 1, but was delayed due to bugs.
• A plan to enable CirrusSearch as the primary search method on the 11 largest Wikimedia wikis has now been prepared.
• If you use references on a page, you will soon always see them at the bottom of the page, even if you forget to add the <references /> tag (or a template).
• Black-and-white XCF images will soon display correctly.
• Description pages of SVG files will soon always show download links for multiple resolutions (example). The links were previously shown only for SVG files in large original resolutions.

Problems

• Between July 2-3, there were problems with loading pages on multiple wikis due to a configuration issue.
• For a few hours on July 1, there were problems with uploading new files on Wikimedia Commons due to a configuration error.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Sugar candy

On 8 July 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Sugar candy, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that among sugar candies, translucent, rock-hard boiled sweets such as lollipops are not considered crystalline candies? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sugar candy. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-29

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf13) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 10. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on July 15, and to all Wikipedias on July 17 (calendar).
• It is now possible to globally rename global (SUL) users. Please go to the username changes page on Meta if you want to rename your account on all wikis.
• You can now read a summary of the Wikimedia technical report for June 2014.
• You can now read the latest issue of the Wikidata newsletter and translate it into your language.

VisualEditor news

• The tool to add templates and citations will now work for templates that include HTML comments or templates in their titles.
• The button to make images full size should now work correctly.
• References will now be shown in the default font size again.

Future software changes

• CirrusSearch will be enabled as the primary search method on the Dutch (nl) and Japanese (ja) Wikipedias on July 14, and on the Polish (pl) and Russian (ru) Wikipedias on July 16.
• The Special:Version page will soon show the exact version of MediaWiki and all extensions installed on your wiki (example).
• It will soon no longer be possible to order printed books of wiki articles via PediaPress. You will still be able to create PDF files.
• Pages that use {{DISPLAYTITLE:''title''}} more than once will soon show a warning. You can use {{DISPLAYTITLE:''title''|noerror}} to hide it.
• Pages that have the list of references added automatically will soon be added to a tracking category. Administrators will be able to configure the name of the category on their wikis.
• Administrators will soon be able to easily merge histories of two pages using Special:MergeHistory.
• Administrators will soon see links to delete files on Special:ListFiles.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:49, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Causes of Cancer

Compliments on that page. Sorry not to be in a position (literally) to help out. Best wishes, 109.157.86.177 (talk) 18:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Unlike Cancer, the new page Causes of cancer is currently open for anyone to edit, if you feel comfortable giving it a try. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks WAID. Unfortunately an acute flare-up of a chronic back problem means that I really have a duty to myself to resist all temptations to stay seated in front of a screen for any length of time. However, I'm continuing to think about how to handle the etiology/pathogenesis presentation conundrum within MEDMOS's somewhat unconventional (imo) guidance. I feel this sort of "causes" page might eventually turn out to be a useful 'background' workshop (excuse the phrase). Personally, I feel committed to trying to work these things out in a collegial way with a minimum of lexical obsessing/stress all round :-) 109.157.86.177 (talk) 20:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope we'll find a good solution.

Where pain problems are concerned, the technology isn't there yet. I've seen nagware that tells you to go stretch, but what I need is something more forceful, like "I'm blanking the screen for the next five minutes. You might as well get up and move around". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

:) Actually, just writing you that message helped me reinforce the idea. 109.157.86.177 (talk) 08:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Precious again

magic tools
Thank you, user with an annoyingly high Intelligence Quotient, for quality articles contributions in MED, VE support, precise language, and for speaking edit summaries, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 548th recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

amazing

this is probably one of the most truly diplomatic things i have ever seen on wikipedia. Thank you for what you bring, all the time. Jytdog (talk) 04:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The role of Community Advocates

Your comment seriously misrepresents and belittles the case which I have been arguing for some time, and not for the first time. I think you owe me an apology. Deltahedron (talk) 06:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I do not understand why posting the facts about how few CAs exist is "misrepresenting" or "belittling" you or your case. CAs simply do not have time to pick up any extra projects suggested by volunteers. If you can explain the difference between "proactive engagement" in math and "do the math project you suggested", then I'd be happy to hear it.

I want better math software, too. The fact that I want better math software does not prevent me from noticing that you're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to your choice of staff team. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Then let me explain to you. I did not suggest that community advocates should "pick up any project that any volunteer ... wants them to take on". What I have suggested is that advocates engage with the various volunteer and developer communities to find out what their needs are and use that to inform WMF planning. That is not the same thing and I find it hard to believe that you think it is. To confuse them as you have done is misrepresentation, and to misrepresent me as if I had suggested something that is obviously and ridiculously unworkable is belittling me.

If you genuinely cannot tell the difference between proactively engaging with a group and doing everything that group demands, then I cannot help you. But I am sure that you do, and your response here shows that in fact you do understand this perfectly well, even if you affect not to in your response here.

I do not understand what you mean by my "choice of staff team". I have no such team and have made no such choice. Your comment seems strangely irrelevant.

In your long response you explain that your job described by yourself as "ensuring that readers and editors are represented in the decision-making process and that our planned software adequately reflects user needs" is not what you say it is. Perhaps you would like to post a description of just what it is that you do?

I assume that you see no need to apolgise, although you have not said so explicitly. Deltahedron (talk) 17:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Your continued insistence that CAs engage in your chosen process amounts to an announcement that you believe that LCA ought to be doing this work. Also, please note that "any project" does not mean "every project": CAs cannot take on any extra projects suggested by the community right now.

I'm not part of LCA, by the way, and my method of representing the various communities in Product's decision-making does not involve starting open-ended, speculative discussions about who might want software changes. For one thing, I tend to start with what's reasonably possible and aligned with strategic goals, because having a long discussion about how X is terribly important, only to end with "Thanks for telling me about that problem, but there are no resources for that and probably won't be any for the foreseeable future" is only useful as a method of frustrating people.

Can you explain how "proactive engagement in math" differs from "do the project you recommended for math"? I'm not seeing a difference as far as math software is concerned. I understand the difference between "do this for every topic area" and "do this for math", but I'm not seeing the distinction you're apparently drawing between "do this for math" and "do this for math". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I am very surprised to hear that you do not understand the difference. But just to spell it out: proactive engagement with a particular community means contacting that community, discussing their requirements, summarising and prioritising them , working with them to help them and yourself understand what is necessary, desirable, achievable and so forth. It might well involve triaging community requests into important, nice-to-have and pointless; understanding linkages, implications and dependencies between community requests and other projects that you have sight of and they do not. It means using your skill, judgement, expertise and experience to discriminate and prioritise; to understand which areas of WMF need to be involved, how and where to insert requirements into WMF planning, advocating for projects. In the opposite direction it means honestly relaying news good and bad from WMf to volunteer communities, holding grown-up conversations about priorities, resources, practicalities. It does not mean doing whatever communities demand that you do, nor mechanically transposing their comments into other areas of WMF; neither does it mean blocking all community opinions with unresponsive jargon. That is what to me would be involved in "ensuring that readers and editors are represented in the decision-making process and that our planned software adequately reflects user needs".

However, you have made it quite clear that your view of "ensuring that readers and editors are represented in the decision-making process and that our planned software adequately reflects user needs" is radically different to mine. I suspect further discussion would generate more heat than light. However, there are some unanswered questions on User talk:Jimbo Wales that you might like to address. Deltahedron (talk) 18:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

You have once again failed to answer my very specific question. I assume that I have been unclear in asking it. Here is the question, again:

You want this particular model of "proactive engagement with a particular community":

• contacting that community,
• discussing their requirements,
• summarising and prioritising them,
• working with them to help them and yourself understand what is necessary, desirable, achievable and so forth.

I want to know how this list:

• contacting that maths editor community,
• discussing their maths-related requirements,
• summarising and prioritising them for maths-related editing,
• working with them to help them and yourself understand what is necessary, desirable, achievable and so forth for maths.

differs from "proactive engagement with the mathematics editors". Perhaps it will help if you fill out this little form:

Just feel free to change that table, so I can see what the exact difference is between what you want done at 800+ WMF wikis and their thousands of communities, and what you want done right here for the community of mathematics editors.

And if, as I continue to suspect, the answer is "there's no real difference", then please feel free to retract your repeated claims that what you want done for math is different from what you want done for every other community of contributors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this is the sort of question that has an answer, since it seems designed to make a point rather than to elicit information. As far as I can tell, the point would seem to be that you think I have made inconsistent statements. If you can exhibit those statements, preferably with the associated diffs, then perhaps I can begin to undersatnd and hence address the point you want to make. Right now all I can tell is that you are angry at something, but I don't what, when, where or why.

On the off chance that it helps, let me sketch the background. I have been concerned for some time about the current state and likely future of mathematics editing and rendering. After a long and, I feel, unncessarily arduous, process, I managed to elicit that there was a disconnect between what mathematics editors wanted or needed and WMF planning. In fact, it turned out that in this area there were no plans at all. At Jimmy Wales's instigation, I started a discussion and a proposal emerged which addressed points ranging from the structural and strategic to those specific to mathematics. Naturally as a mathematics content contributor I would delighted if the mathematics part of the proposals were accepted, but while a temporary gratification, this would not be a sustainable situation unless the structural elements were fixed as well.

I hope this helps you to understand the background to those proposals, which are perhaps slightly more complex than you may have given them credit for. Deltahedron (talk) 19:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I have been trying to discover how I allegedly misrepresented your goal. From your response, it appears that I have not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Then you would have done better to ask outright: I would have been able to give you the explanation. Here it is. You wrote "fixing that", where "that" means community advocates not being able to pick up any project that any volunteer like Deltahedron wants them to take on. Firstly, as I explained, "that" referred to the gap in perceptions between the various groups involved, and not anything I wanted anyone to do. Secondly, and far more importantly, I have not argued that community advocates should pick up "any project" that "any volunteer" wants them to take on. You made it sound as if I expected the advocates to be at the beck and call of the volunteers doing anything that anyone asked them to do. That would be absurd and unworkable, I have not argued for it, and for you to imply that I have, and that I expect you to undertake any project I happen to want, is to misrepresent my position. I have consistently stated that somebody, and I would have expected that to be an advocate task, should proactively engage with volunteers communities to find out what volunteers requirements are. I do not expect the advocates to meet those requirement directly, of course, as advocates are not volunteers. I do not expect advocates to esure every such requirement is passed to developers, as advocates are not senior engineers. What I would expect is that someone -- and it seems to be the advocate's role -- ensure that a balanced view of the possibly competing requirements is fed into the planning process at an appropriate, and that the decisions are fed back. I hope that makes it clear.

In future it would be helpful if you were to address this sort of question directly. I realise that "misrepresent" is a hard word and I do not use it lightly. A serious conversation about a serious matter is not improved by the sort of rhetorical display above that consumes time and screen space to little effect. You may have time to spend on that sort of thing -- I do not. Deltahedron (talk) 05:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

As I have told you before, the Legal and Community Advocacy department's remit does not include collecting product requirements. You may "have expected to be an advocate task", but it is not. But to help you understand the situation, LCA deals with things like kids posting suicide threats and DMCA takedown notices. They do not deal with software. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

You have indeed. However, your own personal job description states that you "support by ensuring that readers and editors are represented in the decision-making process and that our planned software adequately reflects user needs. The community includes the power users as well as the occasional editors, who have very different needs and very different ways of expressing their needs". I would be interested to hear exactly how you do that, especially if your department does not deal with software. Deltahedron (talk) 17:27, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Once again:

• I am not a Community Advocate.
• I am not part of the Legal and Community Advocacy department.
• I plan to work on my assignment, which is not any-and-all-software, but one specific product (VisualEditor) that is my assigned task.
• My methods involve relatively specific questions about specific tools in one product.
• My job involves supporting planned software; it does not involve planning new software. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

You're quite right -- I do apologise for confusing Community Liaison with Community Advocate. I suppose this just underlines the necessity for volunteers like me to have a staff member to guide them through the maze of WMF structures and procedures. I must have been confused by the fact that your supervisor at one time was Director of Community Advocacy. Deltahedron (talk) 19:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

The WMF, in my experience, is not even close to as complex as the English Misplaced Pages. For the WMF staff members who didn't start out as editors, it's practically impossible. One of the first orientation presentations is to tell them that more projects exist than the English Misplaced Pages, and for some (especially administrative people), this is news to them.

I've tried to amend the original statement in a way that I hope will be clearer. I can see how "any project" might be misread as "every project". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-30

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf14) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 17. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on July 22, and to all Wikipedias on July 24 (calendar).
• CirrusSearch was removed as the primary search method from Wikimedia Commons and the Spanish (es) Misplaced Pages due to a high server load. The plan to enable it on the Dutch (nl), Japanese (ja), Polish (pl) and Russian (ru) Wikipedias was also postponed to a later date.
• The tool that stores information about languages (CLDR) was updated to its latest version. You can still help translate language names into your own language so they can be used in the sidebar and other places.
• Translation memory for newly translatable pages should now offer more suggestions.
• A tool to convert MediaWiki pages to LaTeX is now available on Tool Labs.

VisualEditor news

• Tablet users visiting the mobile version of Wikimedia wikis will be able to use a special version of VisualEditor starting on July 31. You can test the new tool by choosing the beta version of the mobile view in the Settings menu. Feedback is welcome.
• All windows in VisualEditor have now a new design. Main action buttons will always be located in the top bar and will use simple words rather than icons.
• You can now easily open links inside the link editor, for example to see their target.
• Several bugs related to the positioning of the cursor around some items (like images and references) were fixed last week.

Future software changes

• It will soon be possible to watch individual discussions in the Topic namespace rather than whole pages for talk pages using Flow.
• You can give comments about the new version of Winter, a proposal to have a fixed toolbar at the top of wiki pages.
• An IRC meeting to organize Pywikibot bugs will take place from July 24 to July 27 on the channel #pywikibot on freenode.
• A request for comments on how to improve MediaWiki API was re-started on MediaWiki.org. Your feedback is welcome.

Problems

• Mailing lists were broken for about 16 hours between July 14 and July 15 due to a server problem.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Enjoyed your comments

In the current MEDRS discussion. TimidGuy (talk) 14:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Me too! I can hardly say how much I appreciate the wisdom of this editor. Gandydancer (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how to understand the compliments I've received recently for expressing near-despair. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I enjoyed your comments because they were apt and well stated, and they baldly and boldly noted the futility of opposing Misplaced Pages's most dominant faction. I sympathize with your despair. It is indeed frustrating when one sees, as I have, admins deliberately misrepresent sources, especially knowing that nothing can be done about it. TimidGuy (talk) 11:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

supplements and doctors..

well there is this Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I noticed your comment about the roomful of vitamin researchers who all used vitamins, and frankly, I'm pretty skeptical that this story is anything but that—a story. It certainly doesn't ring true to me, based on my personal experience. I know a number of people who do research on various aspects of nutrition, vitamin supplementation, and so forth. Of the dozen or so with whom the subject has come up, none of them take multivitamin supplements. None. They generally believe in the value of a healthy diet ("healthy" being variously defined, but typically heavy on fruits and vegetables), but none of them see any value in vitamin supplementation for people with otherwise adequate nutritional status. The exception might be vitamin D, which enjoyed (or is still enjoying) a moment in the sun, so to speak. I do know a number of well-informed people who believe in the value (or at least, the harmlessness and possible but unproven benefit) of vitamin D supplementation.

More generally, though, suppose for the sake of argument that a substantial number of researchers do take multivitamins. In what way does their personal choice reflect scientific consensus on the subject? Consider that scientific consensus clearly holds that smoking is harmful. Yet approximately 20% of physicians specializing in public health continue to smoke (PMID 24991556), a number not far off from the prevalence of multivitamin use among physicians. Surely the fact that a sizable minority of public-health experts smoke does not undermine the scientific evidence that smoking is harmful. Likewise, you can't turn around without bumping into a cardiologist who eats a crappy diet. Their personal dietary choices don't undermine the scientific consensus on the role of diet in heart disease.

My point is that even if 100% of vitamin researchers used multivitamins, their personal choices don't reflect the state of scientific evidence. These are two separate spheres. Scientists are people, and they're no more immune to the crazy ideas and irrational decisions than the average human beings. Even among people who are professionally highly rational and logical, superstitions and irrational beliefs persist (Atul Gawande wrote an interesting chapter in Complications about surgeons who refuse to operate on Fridays the 13th, for instance). MastCell  19:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It's much easier to quit vitamin supplements than to quit nicotine—so much easier, that one would have to assume that the vitamin is a deliberate, informed choice, whereas the tobacco use might be a sign of addiction or of perceived tradeoffs (I stink and am shunned and am poorer and will die sooner, but I feel better right now). Consequently, we might reasonably assume that these (mythical) researchers were basing their choices off the sum of their knowledge, rather than off the currently published literature. There is a sometimes sizable gap between the two, especially when consensus is shifting rapidly. (I heard this story more than a decade ago, before the Vitamin-E-kills-you headlines.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Fair point about the addictiveness of nicotine. At the same time, the evidence that smoking kills is much stronger than the evidence of harm with dietary supplements, so one would assume there would be more incentive not to smoke than not to take a multivitamin. Maybe it was a poorly chosen example, but my main point was that one can't judge scientific consensus by the behavioral choices of individual scientists.

Regarding vitamin E, the decade-ago timeframe makes sense. I remember working with a very well-known oncologist around the turn of the millenium who took vitamin E religiously because he was convinced, on the basis of preclinical data, that it prevented cancer. I think it would be very hard to find an oncologist who thinks that way now, in light of subsequent clinical trials showing no benefit and likely harm. Incidentally, there was a brief and speculative, but interesting, review on the topic of antioxidants and cancer in this week's New England Journal of Medicine (). MastCell  23:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Along those lines, do you know what I'd really like to find? A pair of good sources that talk about the idea that "toxins" (metabolic byproducts, that can only be avoided by eating exactly the right diet and taking exactly the right dietary supplements ) cause cancer. The "oxygen causes cancer" theory is more easily documented, but the "toxin" idea seems to be more pervasive. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

boy that is indeed a top-dog alt med notion. on sources, depends on what you mean by "good", i guess. this fails WP:INDY but is dead on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17658124. did a bunch of pubmed searches and found very little; millions of google hits though for "detox diets" and the like. Jytdog (talk)

Right, there's the acid–alkaline thing, but there's also just "toxins", with no further specification. I believe that "wearing a bra causes breast cancer" idea had this idea as their mechanism ( bras are tight, elastic stops lymph circulation, and then the toxins get you). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

stepping back...

If I may... your comment about doctors and supplements started as follows: "This reminds me of a story I heard about a conference on vitamin supplements...." As near as I can tell, the antecedent of "this" was a comment from Technophant that included the following: "If Misplaced Pages leaves out the known but unconfirmed and only reflects mainstream then its articles on medicine will remain short and incomplete like they are now." And I ~think~ the rhetorical purpose of the story was to point out that dietary supplement use (and more broadly, alt-med use) is mainstream even though the literature shows they are basically good for nothing (with some exceptions, folic acid etc). Is that right, WAID? assuming so.. stepping back yet again, the story was told in the context of other despairing comments you made on POV-pushing from both sides on alt med articles. So.... WAID, if you got WP to yourself for a day and chose to work on alt-med articles, what kind of middle would you craft? How would you implement WP:YESPOV and MEDRS in them? How would you talk about efficacy (or lack thereof)? How would you discuss the increasingly mainstream use of alt med modalities? I am interested to hear your thoughts, if you care to lay them out. (wide ranging question i know)Jytdog (talk) 00:23, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I think I'd find something more interesting to work on. But if I were doing this, and if you said I wasn't allowed to nuke the whole mess, salt the articles, and topic-ban anyone who had made more than occasional in this area, then these are the things on my mind:

• Make some of them quite a bit shorter (Acupuncture is at the upper limit of WP:SIZE, or 14 times the size of Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry on the subject, and Chiropractic is not far behind, which means that nobody will actually read those articles).
• Focus more on history and 'business' aspects (like how many people use it) than on physiological hypotheses.
• Move a lot of stuff to sub-articles (e.g., acupuncture doesn't work for infertility: it's just not important enough to get a section in the main article) so that the main article can focus on the main uses (i.e., pain for acupuncture).
• Strip a bunch of the 'let me tell you about this study' stuff (per MEDMOS). "A 2011 review concluded there was limited evidence as to the effectiveness of acupuncture as a treatment option for ADHD but cautioned that firm conclusions could not be drawn because of the risk of bias." would become "Whether acupuncture is an effective treatment for ADHD is unknown" (if that much; see the item above).

Finally, if I could make a wish that couldn't be as big as "everyone will become personally mature, aware of their own biases, and more interested in writing neutral, accurate articles than in winning the fight against the evil opponents" or even as big as "we will have a lot more high-quality research to draw from", but could still be pretty big, I'd have the science-y editors discover that something that is "only" as effective as placebo can be really good news for the patient in some cases (e.g., pain, depression), especially in the short-term. If you can get placebo-quality pain relief from an enthusiastic prescriber of homeopathy, which can guarantee of zero side effects, then that will sometimes be the healthiest option for the patient. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

that's helpful. and wry. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 04:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Help welcoming an expert?

WAID, I believe Dsrileymd may well be a member of the group responsible for drawing up the CARE guidelines (cf Case report#Reporting guidelines, a short section I recently authored as 86.181.67.132). Yesterday I somewhat hastily undid an edit he had made , as it seemed to me like a somewhat problematic instance of close paraphrasing. Not the kindest of welcomes to Misplaced Pages perhaps... For which I apologise. I have since posted a Medicine Project welcoming message on his talk page, but have refrained from leaving a more personalized message, both because that might seem somewhat strange coming from a ip and because I feel you might manage to be rather more welcoming than me! Best, 31.48.175.145 (talk) 20:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Close paraphrasing of densely worded facts can be difficult, and the English Misplaced Pages commonly uses a stricter standard than is legally necessary. I've left a note for Dsrileymd. I hope that we'll be adding another solid editor to our ranks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanx WAID. 31.48.175.145 (talk) 08:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

And thanks again :) 86.157.144.73 (talk) 08:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

FYI

FYI interest the editor who closed a discussion at WT:IRS has also closed a discussion in the archives with a similar summary. See: Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources/Archive 43#RfC - are newspaper headlines a reliable source per se?. Regards, Armbrust 06:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps he'll avoid those in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Sources for product specification

Surely the best source for the specification of a camera body is the manufacturer's own specification datasheet on their website (or the back of the manual, say). It has a high reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, and could be considered the authoritative source from which other's derive their data. Similarly, the winners of the Commonwealth Games may be best sourced to the organisation's own website. How does this square with WP's need for "third-party" sources? I understand the need for this for contentious issues and to establish notability where this is in any doubt, but can't see why we should push editors into using "copy/paste" alternative sources that simply scrape their data from the authority (while carrying adverts, say). -- Colin° 11:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Colin, for purposes of verifiability, I would accept the manufacturer's specification datasheet. I would also accept a magazine review of the camera that copied that information. But for purposes of notability, only the second would do.

Is there a dispute somewhere about this? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Not particularly. I was re-reading policy pages and they all seemed to emphasise "third party" sources as an absolute requirement, which surely isn't true for all information. Such as the examples I gave. So I wonder if our policy pages are being unnecessarily demanding for some kinds of non-contentious information. Surely where an organisation measures something or makes something as part of their business, then they are the authority for those measurements or the basic attributes of the thing they made. The ingredients list on a foodstuff is another -- would we really require someone to source that data to some other publication than the side of the packet? I agree about notability. -- Colin° 08:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

That's helpful; thanks for the context. One of my goals is to re-write WP:INDY and WP:3PARTY this year. I got started at User:WhatamIdoing/Sandbox_3 a while ago but need to get back to it.

The goal is to have most of the article sourced to independent sources, because that shows notability and also ensures DUE weight (not all about the manufacturer's POV). But for individual facts, the affiliated source might be not merely acceptable, but actually authoritative. I'll think about this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) use of drug label as a source is interesting in the context of this discussion. most authoritative? Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

For some things, not for others. A drug label (the prescriber's insert) is authoritative for things like formulation but not for things like the current common dose. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-31

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf15) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 24. It will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on July 29, and to all Wikipedias on July 31 (calendar).
• You can now download the latest version of the anti-vandalism tool Huggle.

VisualEditor news

• You can now create, edit, and view HTML comments in VisualEditor.
• The cancel button in VisualEditor toolbar has been removed. You can still use the Read tab and the Back button in your browser to cancel your edit.
• If you try to use a template which has no suggested or required parameters in TemplateData, you will now be asked to add the parameters.
• You will no longer be able to edit a page if you can't create it, for example on pages protected against recreation.

Future software changes

• You will soon be able to filter Meta-Wiki's user rights log by wiki and user.
• Wikidata will soon be able to store data about article status, for example "good article" or "featured article". If your wiki has highlighted content, please make sure it is on Wikidata's list.
• It will soon be possible to directly create empty pages, for example in the user namespace.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

08:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

TWA Localization

Hi, I am localizing the TWA into Telugu. I just got struck at the first page of the journey. Unable to get the pop-up. Could you please help in this task.
Praveen Grao (talk) 12:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Praveen Grao,

You really need to talk to User:Ocaasi. Ocaasi wrote it; he'll know how to fix it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you. :-) Praveen Grao (talk) 19:02, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-32

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Tech News updates

• Tech News will be presented at the Wikimania 2014 conference in London! If you will be attending the conference, please join us in Auditorium 2 at 14:30 local time on Sunday, August 10.

Recent software changes

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf16) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on July 31. Due to the Wikimania 2014 conference, it will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on August 12, and to all Wikipedias on August 14 (calendar).
• You can now test a new tool to render wiki pages as PDF files.
• You can now download an update to the archive of Wikimedia Commons files (uploaded up to December 31, 2013). If you have free space on your computer, please help preserve the files.
• New users using the mobile Commons site now need to make 75 edits before they can upload a file.

VisualEditor news

• You will no longer see an edit confirmation message after making a null edit with VisualEditor.
• VisualEditor will no longer change underscores to spaces in category sort keys.
• Many bugs that resulted in inserting the pawn and snowman symbols were fixed last week.
• Several bugs related to the use of references were also fixed.

Future software changes

• You will soon have a user option to watch pages where you revert edits.
• All Toolserver data will be deleted in September. If you want to back up your data, contact Toolserver administrators before August 31.
• Pages in the Translations: namespace on wikis using the Translate extension will no longer be indexed by search engines.

Problems

• Wikivoyage wikis were broken for about 45 minutes on July 29 due to a configuration problem.
• Some users were not able to log in on test wikis and MediaWiki.org between July 31 and August 1. The problem is now fixed.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you in London?

If so, can I have 15 minutes of your time? (Sorry if this is in the wrong spot - I'm still getting used to mobile editing.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:33, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Anthonyhcole,

I'm not in London. The entire rest of my team is, though, if you'd like to talk to any of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

OK. Will do. Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Collapse vs. Archive

Hi. I noticed that you reverted some edits at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment. I was wondering if you could point me to any discussion demonstrating a consensus against collapsing off-topic sections of talk pages. WP:TPO seems to suggest that off-topic posts, which would include "notices of disputes or requests for comment" on that particular talk page, can generally be hidden. This is obviously a different situation than the routine archiving of old discussion. Thanks. G. C. Hood (talk) 01:25, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Collapsing discussions makes it impossible to search those sections using your computer (e.g., with ⌘ Command+F). It produces some WP:ACCESS issues. Also, if you go through the archives, you'll see that it's just not been done at that particular page.

I've got no objection to you choosing to manually archive any inactive sections. Just please don't "hide" them from other people. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter—July and August 2014

The VisualEditor team is currently working mostly to fix bugs, improve performance, reduce technical debt, and other infrastructure needs. You can find on Mediawiki.org weekly updates detailing recent work.

The biggest visible change since the last newsletter was to the dialog boxes. The design for each dialog box and window was simplified. The most commonly needed buttons are now at the top. Based on user feedback, the buttons are now labeled with simple words (like "Cancel" or "Done") instead of potentially confusing icons (like "<" or "X"). Many of the buttons to edit links, images, and other items now also show the linked page, image name, or other useful information when you click on them.

• Hidden HTML comments (notes visible to editors, but not to readers) can now be read, edited, inserted, and removed. A small icon (a white exclamation mark on a dot) marks the location of each comments. You can click on the icon to see the comment.
• You can now drag and drop text and templates as well as images. A new placement line makes it much easier to see where you are dropping the item. Images can no longer be dropped into the middle of paragraphs.
• All references and footnotes (<ref> tags) are now made through the "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽" menu, including the "⧼visualeditor-dialogbutton-reference-tooltip⧽" (manual formatting) footnotes and the ability to re-use an existing citation, both of which were previously accessible only through the "Insert" menu. The "⧼visualeditor-dialogbutton-referencelist-tooltip⧽" is still added via the "Insert" menu.
• When you add an image or other media file, you are now prompted to add an image caption immediately. You can also replace an image whilst keeping the original caption and other settings.
• All tablet users visiting the mobile web version of Wikipedias will be able to opt-in to a version of VisualEditor from 14 August. You can test the new tool by choosing the beta version of the mobile view in the Settings menu.
• The link tool has a new "Open" button that will open a linked page in another tab so you can make sure a link is the right one.
• The "Cancel" button in the toolbar has been removed based on user testing. To cancel any edit, you can leave the page by clicking the Read tab, the back button in your browser, or closing the browser window without saving your changes.

Looking ahead

The team posts details about planned work on the VisualEditor roadmap. The VisualEditor team plans to add auto-fill features for citations soon. Your ideas about making referencing quick and easy are still wanted. Support for upright image sizes is being developed. The designers are also working on support for adding rows and columns to tables. Work to support Internet Explorer is ongoing.

Feedback opportunities

The Editing team will be making two presentations this weekend at Wikimania in London. The first is with product manager James Forrester and developer Trevor Parscal on Saturday at 16:30. The second is with developers Roan Kattouw and Trevor Parscal on Sunday at 12:30.

Please share your questions, suggestions, or problems by posting a note at the VisualEditor feedback page or by joining the office hours discussion on Thursday, 14 August 2014 at 09:00 UTC (daytime for Europe, Middle East and Asia) or on Thursday, 18 September 2014 at 16:00 UTC (daytime for the Americas; evening for Europe).

If you'd like to get this newsletter on your own page (about once a month), please subscribe at w:en:Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Newsletter for English Misplaced Pages only or at Meta for any project. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-33

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

• Due to the Wikimania 2014 conference, there were no MediaWiki changes this week. The latest version of MediaWiki (1.24wmf16) will be added to non-Misplaced Pages wikis on August 12, and to all Wikipedias on August 14 (calendar).
• Bureaucrats on all Wikivoyage wikis are no longer able to merge two accounts into one.

VisualEditor news

• Tablet users visiting the mobile version of non-Misplaced Pages wikis will be able to use VisualEditor starting on August 12. The feature will also be enabled on all Wikipedias on August 14.

Future software changes

• Internet Explorer 6 users will soon see a JavaScript-free version of Wikimedia wikis; JavaScript tools and scripts will no longer work on that browser. If you use Internet Explorer 6, make sure to update to a newer browser!
• If you visit a special page that requires you to be logged-in, you will soon be automatically redirected to the log-in page instead of seeing a warning.
• You will now always see recent changes to the source language text when editing a translation with the Translate extension.
• An IRC meeting to discuss VisualEditor will take place on August 14 at 09:00 UTC on the channel #wikimedia-office on freenode (time conversion).

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by MediaWiki message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

07:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

How about a nice cold one

I was in the neighbourhood and thought I'd drop in and say hi. SlightSmile 20:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)