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Weight of Chains 2 ?

I couldn't find any mention of a release date for WofC 2 on the Malagurski web-site as claimed by the article .... Also the (named) sponsors are once again principally Serbian Diaspora organisations. What is the official position about a film that hasn't even been released yet? … ps The section isn't even grammatical.Pincrete (talk) 14:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Further to above, Even if the release date is confirmed, I suggest single sentence additions to the existing refs to WoC2 covering: 1). Release date (and location if known) 2). that the film was funded in the same way as WoC. The present section (apart from being ungrammatical) reads like a press release.Pincrete (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager, could you explain to me how removing a 'cyclic link' (a link which sends the reader back to the same point on the same page that they are already on), constitutes 'vandalism'? Pincrete (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Release date There is no mention on the BM site of a release date for WoC2 ... merely a 'watch this space' notice ... I propose therefore to merge the two refs to the sequel. Any objections anyone?Pincrete (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Merge proposal I propose a merge of the two refs to W of C 2 thus:- A trailer was made for a sequel, "The Weight of Chains 2", but - as of June 2014, - a release date has not been announced. The sequel is being funded in a similar manner to the original. (+ refs to funding & release info) … anyone disagree ? Pincrete (talk) 17:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed. It's time to cut back the Malagurski-spam. bobrayner (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It has simply been a question of me not having time … the merge and some other tidying will happen ASAP.Pincrete (talk) 17:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate & dead links

Not sure about proper procedure here, but two of the refs attached to the 'Raindance' screening are to Serbian sites. I don't quite see how they verify that the film was shown in London. One of them is anyhow dead and the other seems to be a general article about BM. The film WAS clearly shown at London Raindance and the UK link is still live. Should other refs be removed ?Pincrete (talk) 15:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Update August I have removed the self-sourced interview reference also another reference ('Kusturica' selection) which does not mention WoC anywhere, I have also removed a few words about the Min of Cult being due to speak on the same day as the cancellation, as the relevance is not established either in the article or the source. … … ps I confirm that the RTS link is dead (though accessible by Wayback) two interesting points about this ref 1) fairly minor is that it appears to be saying that WoC WILL BE shown … … 2) more interesting, is that it refers to WoC as part of a special season of films from the Balkans, that would be that well known part of the Balkans called Canada! (Someone with better knowledge of Serbian than I would have to verify that I am correct).Pincrete (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

A seperate dispute (a revert war?)about dead links on 'screenings' seems to be going on between UrbanVillager and Bobrayner. Not only do I confirm that most/all of the links are dead, I also confirm that they have been dead since at least Autumn 2012, when many of these links were the subject of discussion on talk. UrbanVillager knew many/most of them to be dead at that time because he introduced me to 'Wayback', which enabled me to access some of them, therefore my sympathies are presently wholly with Bobrayner on this matter, these links are dead.

Whether it is customary to mark links as dead, is a matter about which I know nothing, except a tendency to think that it is helpful to the reader to do so.

There are also other 'un-productive' links in this article, such as the 'Ann Arbor' link which takes one only to the AA site, on which there are no records of WofC at all, (this again has been the case for at least two years) ... it all seems very unhelpful to the reader.Pincrete (talk) 11:35, 5 June 2014 (UTC) Update Links 13 & 20 also lead 'nowhere useful' ...I checked all of those marked as dead by BobR and confirm them again to be dead ... Some are accessible using 'Wayback' or similar.Pincrete (talk) 15:34, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

We've had problems with fake sources on these pages. This is just a continuation of the problem. bobrayner (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Two refs are word-for-word duplicates (ie one is simply a mirror) both appear to end 'the author announced today' ie self-sourced … (but my Serbian is not good enough to guarantee that).Pincrete (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Multi-stage edit

I have just performed a multi-stage edit.

Stage 1 I reverted to Bobrayner's last edit in which (most of) the dead links were marked, some of these are accessible using 'Wayback', but that doesn't make them live. If i have time I may replace present links with their Internet Archive address. Secondly I removed the named sponsors (GRC was mentioned twice) , this was the subject of extensive discussion in the past, concensus was that a 'general' statement about the method of funding was in order, since it was noteworthy (diaspora organistions + individuals) and specific mention of GRC, since its founder is both an interviewee in the film and a cited source for info about the film - but, there was no good reason to mention organisations or individuals by name. Thirdly, I merged the two refs to WofC2 and tidied the phrasing.

Stage 2 I clarified the phrasing of the Pavlica criticism, I realise that this has been very controversial in the past, I modified the Pavlica comment ONLY to the extent that I said that the 'technical' criticism (using fiction film … a fairly minor breach of documentary ettiquette), was ONE of his criticisms. I may do further tidying when I have time. Two changes which I can't work out HOW to make, but which annoy me greatly result from using a film template, these are 'screenplay' is usually only used for a fictional film (script or narration or writer for a documentary, normally), similarly, you can't STAR in a documentary!Pincrete (talk) 16:33, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Nice work. Well done. bobrayner (talk) 20:07, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Stage 3 I have updated some dead references to their internet archive address ... I also merged the 6 lines of the 'Beldocs ec/ho' screenings as this is (as I understand it) a 'touring festival' with screenings in numerous towns. The previous layout displayed more space to these screenings than does the source! I also did this in order to save amending 6 references (the same ref.in fact).Pincrete (talk) 19:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

In what sense Canadian?

UrbanVillager, it was not me, but Bobrayner who removed the 'Canadian' description, though I wholly agree with it, I DID add the reference to the location of his film company (and copied it from one of the other BM pages). Re: your comment "What matters is that it's a Canadian film.". Firstly you aren't consistent, when another editor described the film as 'Serbian' you said 'films don't have ethnicity' ... apparently they do have nationality! What matters is to state as accurately/fairly and as succinctly as possible what its claim to being Canadian IS. Normally there is no problem with a film, if its creative input is French, if the funding is French, if the film company is established in France and the filming is done in France, and the core audience is French, then it is a French film. None of these apply to WoC, its claim to being Canadian is solely the registered office of the production company. Therefore I believe that to be both accurate and fair to the film. On several sites the film is described as being 'Serbian', I would not agree to putting that in the article either, just as I do not agree with describing it as 'Canadian' … I think sticking to factual information is better.

Just for analogy, 'China News Agency' probably have registered offices in London, I don't think that makes them a 'British News Agency'. Do You?12:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)Pincrete (talk)

For the love of God, watch The Weight of Chains on YouTube, at 1:59:03 where it says "This is a Canadian film", it was produced by a company registered in Vancouver, Canada (the ethnicity of those who give donations to the production company is irrelevant), and yes, films don't have an ethnicity, but they do have a country of origin - in this case, it's Canada, so it's a Canadian documentary film. Your analogy has no relevance in this case (it's not a media outlet, it's a production company), because what matters is where the production company is based, pure and simple. If it was a co-production between a company in the U.S. and a company in France, it would be an American-French film, even if the financing came from China and Tuvalu. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:19, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The film's distributors describe the film as Serbian, as do some of the film festivals, some other festivals categorise it as being a Serbian film but from Canada, therefore its nationality is not as clear-cut as you suggest. So, what is wrong with stating what the Canadian connection is CLEARLY - which is (as you've just said) - that BM's Prod Co. is registered there?

BTW I haven't mentioned the ethnicity of private contributors anywhere and haven't added anything of that sort in my recent edits. BTW 2 (read above), it was NOT me that removed 'Canadian', but it was me that pasted in the film company location (copied from another BM page!).Pincrete (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

"For the love of God, watch The Weight of Chains on YouTube, at 1:59:03 where it says "This is a Canadian film"". UrbanVillager, the film was posted on YouTube by BM himself, now we all understand what your understanding of a reliable source is! The nationality of the film is not clear-cut and is shown differently on various sources, (including BM's own distributors) . Therefore I propose to remove the 'Canadian' reference.Pincrete (talk) 18:15, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you going to dispute that the film is called "The Weight of Chains" (the name that the author, Malagurski, gave it) if some other people call it differently? 'It's his film, but hey, who cares, let's see how other people call it!' Watch the credits, it states that it's a Canadian film, end of discussion. --UrbanVillager (talk) 18:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Re: no consensus on removal. Actually UrbanVillager, 3 editors recently have wanted to remove 'Canadian', I myself asked you here 3 weeks ago what the argument for retaining it was, you chose not to reply. Now we have "Watch the credits, it states that it's a Canadian film, end of discussion", which gives a pretty clear indication of what your definition of concensus is and your definition of a RS.

Re: Are you going to dispute that the film is called "The Weight of Chains ?, Well Yes, I would, if the distributor called it something else, and most of the screenings called it something else, then I WOULD expect that to be accurately reflected here, along with the filmaker's own title. I am perfectly happy for any form of words that accurately reflects what the film's relationship is to Canada (or to Serbia), or for no mention at all of nationality. You alone insist on a particular description, which sources (including the distributor and festivals) do not support.

Re: Your analogy has no relevance … it's not a media outlet, it's a production company. … … Errrrmmmm? Yes, and a cow isn't a potato, it's a cow! … … The obviousness of the difference between a media outlet and a production company is lost on me I'm afraid.Pincrete (talk) 22:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The film states that it's Canadian. It can call itself whatever it wants, just like you call yourself Pincrete. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant, it's like if you said "I think the sky is green". The film is Canadian, nobody but the author, who is Canadian, can decide on that, and he obviously wrote "This is a Canadian film" in the end credits because it was made in Canada and it's Canadian. Stop vandalizing the article with your POV. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The ownership is tiresome. Yes, UrbanVillager, we know you have a revert button. No, that doesn't mean you can put whatever you want in the article when several editors disagree. bobrayner (talk) 18:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager There is a clear concensus for removal of 'Canadian'. Personally, I am not adamant about its removal nor on how the film's provenance should be described, only that it should be as accurate, fair and complete as possible. You alone refuse to enter into dialogue, then sail in and revert, 'BM says' and 'I say', so it must be true, being the nearest thing to argument you offer.

You have reverted about 5 other changes at the same time (for each of which I gave a reason), please enlighten us about these. Is Perkins claim to being an economist that HE says so, that BM says so, or that YOU say so? Because you've forgotten to tell the people over on the Perkins page (he has a degree in business studies I believe). I removed things like 'internationally known' because it is meaningless fluff and some parts I changed were just grammatically wrong (the adjective of culture is either cultural or cultured, depending on the meaning), or 'clunkily' phrased.

I am now going to do something which, I believe, I have never done before which is immediately revert you. (nb this was written at the same time as BR's preceding comment)Pincrete (talk) 19:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager Re: your most recent revert, I can only echo "The ownership is now very very tiresome."Pincrete (talk) 15:03, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager, this silly repeated reverting is tiresome, it wastes time and resources, despite multiple provocations in the past (re-inserting dead links, re-inserting cyclic links, re-inserting bad grammar, re-inserting unsourced claims, accusing me of OR because I mentioned things on this talkpage which are in the text, then repeartedly saying 'look at the film it says … ', therefore it must be true), despite all these I have tried to reach compromise rather than simply revert, but I'm afraid patience is exhausted.Pincrete (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager I and Bobrayner (both of whom have a longish connection with this page) have clearly indicated that we agree with the removal, other 'anon' editors have agreed, can you please explain to a simpleton like me, (who as you have said several times 'can't read' and 'doesn't speak English'), could you please explain how that does not constitute a consensus, and how/why you on your own ARE a consensus. I repeat my offer to discuss ANY compromise that accurately reflects the connection of the film to Canada (or anywhere on the planet).Pincrete (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• The ownership is tiresome. Yes, UrbanVillager, we know you have a revert button. No, that doesn't mean you can put whatever you want in the article when several editors disagree. bobrayner (talk) 21:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Added references. Regards, --UrbanVillager (talk) 21:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

UrbanVillager The reference does no support anything except the filmmaker's claim.Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

OK UrbanVillager, and bobrayner, I propose a fairly 'clunky' compromise, something like "the filmaker and (neutral way of phrasing some others), describe the film as Canadian (UV's refs), whilst the distributor characterises it as Serbian. It has appeared in the Serbian films category at several film festivals (refs to distributor and appropriate festivals)". The sentence would probably need moving, within the intro. Reaction?Pincrete (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC) … … ps I have just removed IMDb ref "IMDb content is user-submitted and often subject to incorrect speculation and rumor. The use of the IMDb on Misplaced Pages for referencing is considered unacceptable and strongly discouraged."

There is no compromise on facts. The film is Canadian, it says so in the film credits. Either you can't read or have a POV agenda. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

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