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Revision as of 17:32, 29 August 2014

This article was nominated for deletion on 13 October 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Neutrality

The article contains the line

The World Congress of Families is a worldwide coalition that stands up for the position of the family, in a time of eroding family life and declining appreciation for families in general.

written in such a way that it seems to be a statement of fact. I wouldn't be surprised if it's copied directly from the group's site or other media. I'm not sure of the best way to fix it, though. --67.175.53.13 (talk) 00:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I've changed it to make it a bit more neutral.Veritas Omnia Vincit (talk) 08:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Controversy

There were already several citations alluding to the controversy surrounding this group, but no explanation as to the source of that controversy. I've attempted to highlight some of the roots of that controversy, while maintaining a neutral tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.184.9 (talk) 15:18, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality

This wikipedia page has been written with an over dependence on appeal to unproven authority of truth, from liberal homosexual lifestyle propogation advocates to present a discrimatory bias against the pro family group which the article is about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.86.33 (talk) 19:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I just reverted a series of edits which seriously compromised the neutrality of this article. I am not sure it is neutral in its present form, either, but the new additions were beyond the pale and cannot be tolerated on Misplaced Pages. Warnings have been issued. Elizium23 (talk) 02:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Those were all sourced additions. If you feel any were beyond the pale let's work them out instead of restoring a very non-neutral version as you have done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masioka (talk • contribs) 02:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC) — Masioka (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Unacceptable additions, all of them, each and every one. Revert the whole thing and start over again with a NEUTRAL tone. You have turned this into an attack page. Elizium23 (talk) 02:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's what we have the talk page for. I have removed your speedy deletion template and unblanked the content: it has to be real bad to warrant deletion as an attack page. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 02:52, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It is hardly an attack page. WCF is best known for their politics which are anti-gay, they are some of the leading force behind the kill the gays legislation in Uganda, and the anti-gay propaganda movement in Russia. They are a professional hate-group facilitator. That is not my assessment but from researchers who specialize in these areas. This page was all but an advertisement for them before which is dishonest. Masioka — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masioka (talk • contribs) 03:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC) — Masioka (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Although I have no problem calling the WCF a hate group, I think the lead didn't need to include so much criticism of the group. I moved that material into the Criticism section and replaced it in the lead with a more general statement that the group's views are controversial. I hope that's an acceptable solution. Aristophanes68 (talk) 04:01, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, that's proper. Drmies (talk) 04:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The article is starting to look better under the care of myself and Aristophanes, but Masioka has commenced an edit war over a BuzzFeed source. It's not WP:RS. Remove it. Elizium23 (talk) 04:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see much of an edit war, but I have warned Masioka about removing the POV tag. Drmies (talk) 04:45, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how reliable BuzzFeed is, but most of those stories could be found in other more traditionally reliable sources anyway. Aristophanes68 (talk) 04:55, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is reliable. I didn't remove the POV tag. Masioka — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masioka (talk • contribs) 05:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC) Masioka (talk) 05:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)— Masioka (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'm also a little nervous about tagging articles by LGBTQ news sites with the verifiability tag. Yes, they're invested in covering the stories from a pro-gay/trans perspective, but automatically tagging them as questionable also seems a little bit biased against LGBTQ folk as well. They're going to cover things that the mainstream press won't (if only because of their niche audience), and to question their reliability just because they're not neutral seems a bit insulting to queer folks. Aristophanes68 (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

That is not why I tagged it. Looking at the website as a whole, I became skeptical of editorial oversight and reputation for fact-checking. Admittedly my feelings are not based on anything concrete. I can't find anything at all on WP:RSN regarding this site; I would not object to removal of the tag if Aristophanes68 sees fit to do so. Elizium23 (talk) 14:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Gotcha -- thanks for clarifying. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It's fairly obvious that the vast majority of my contributions have been kept despite Elizium's insistence that they don't belong. And now, only after Aristophanes68's efforts is Elizium seem willing to accept another's input that indeed these sources are perfectly reliable. I don't see the content changing even if the most reliable Australian mainstream news journals were impressed upon the matter. WCF should be credited for being hugely influential in spreading anti-LGBT hate in Eastern Europe and Africa, hopefully no one will stand in the way of that sourced content. Masioka (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)— Masioka (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I feel, as does Aristophanes that it is not useful to include the SPLC designation in the lede section. I have therefore restored the {{POV}} tag on this article and demand that discussion and consensus ensue here on the talk page regarding the inclusion. We can go on at length about the bias and aggressiveness of SPLC, and discussions have already been held on that, but I can refer you if need be. Personally I feel that the SPLC is the hate group. However I fully support documentation of their positions and reactions in the article, I will not keep any of that out, I just want to ensure that it is treated neutrally and with due prominence. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

SPLC as the hate group? Where have I heard that from? Yes, other hate groups, and the extreme Christian right. Likely as the sole defense against their research that shows the activities of these groups over many years and throughout the world. The only reason to not include that they are a hate group in the lead is to mislead the public about what this so-called Christian group really does. Masioka (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, you can save your bile. Have you read the only article you're editing? It's not merely a Christian group! So spread your hate around to Jews and Muslims and secular scholars. Actually save your hate altogether, because while we can tolerate it on the talk page, it is not tolerated in articles, and you will soon be blocked for attempting to push an agenda in Misplaced Pages's voice. Elizium23 (talk) 16:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I think there is a question about whether WP as a whole should consider SPLC a reliable source in the sense of being neutral. They are clearly important, and I generally agree with them, but then a lot of groups I agree with have been pegged as non-reliable. That being said, I doubt people are tagging FOX News reports as being unreliable..... Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Hate group

A direct quote about World Congress of Families fine work: The World Congress of Families serves as a vessel to bring worldwide hate groups together, as one can see from perusing the sponsors for their international events. The Religious Right has lost the culture war in the United States, and they realized over the past decade that they would have to expand internationally in order to keep their pocketbooks solvent and their ideology relevant. They prey on nations mired in institutional poverty, and they aid foreign governments who find scapegoats that distract their citizens from turning a keen eye on their leaders’ role in their plights quite handy.

They should not hide their light under any bushel but let the whole world see their work in action. Masioka (talk) 16:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I will tell you what, let's make a deal. If you can find 2-3 reliable secondary sources, that is sources such as news outlets with a history of editorial oversight and a reputation for fact-checking, and these sources directly mention SPLC's categorization of WFC, then you can keep it in the lede. Right now the only sources you have are SPLC's own - that is, there is no proven coverage by reliable sources, and so the standard set by WP:DUE is not met. Elizium23 (talk) 16:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

As much as I agree that WFC are a hate group, I think putting that info in the lead does make it seem that the article is non-neutral. HOWEVER, I do notice that the leads of Family Research Council and American Family Association include the SPLC hate-group designation, so there is precedent. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:01, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

EXPOSED: THE WORLD CONGRESS OF FAMILIES AN AMERICAN ORGANIZATION EXPORTING HATE

http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/assets/resources/ExposedTheWorldCongressOfFamilies.pdf

Part of the Executive Summary:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The World Congress of Families (WCF) is one of the most influential American organizations involved in the export of hate. Since 1997, WCF has held conferences and events around the world that foster homophobia

and transphobia under the guise of protecting the “natural family.” It is connected to some mainstream conservative organizations and to the very highest levels of government in the countries where it operates.

Thanks to WCF’s connections, its rhetoric and its willingness to associate with and encourage radically homophobic and transphobic activists, the group has had an outsized influence on anti-LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) sentiment and legislation in many places. This report explores WCF’s influence in more depth, focusing on Russia — where the organization had its genesis — as well as Eastern Europe, Australia and Africa.

Masioka (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

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