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Revision as of 08:00, 8 September 2014

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 07:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

2009–10 Liga Bet

2009–10 Liga Bet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This is a forth division season results. Fails to satisfy Football notability Guidelines. scope_creep talk 18:22, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Speedy keep The nominator does not appear to have read the guidelines they are quoting (which is actually an essay), as it does not make any reference to articles on league seasons. However, it does quite clearly state that "All leagues whose members are eligible for national cups are assumed notable." (Liga Bet clubs play in the Israel State Cup, and therefore the league meets this criteria), and therefore I see no reason why a league season article should be deemed deletable (particularly as they exist for numerous other regional, non-professional leagues). Number 57 18:27, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep I second Number 57's remark. All IFA-affiliated leagues' members in Israel are eligible for the cup, and therefore, not only fourth tier meets the criteria, even fifth tier (which I plan to add in the future) and what was previously the sixth tier are eligible. Eranrabl (talk) 19:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Number 57 21:46, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - The league itself may be notable, but not sufficiently notable for an article about its individual seasons. The division is divided into regional groups, which has traditionally been an indicator that individual season articles are probably not required. – PeeJay 21:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @PeeJay2K3: We have individual season articles about leagues down to level 9/10 in England. Do you not think it's a bit ridiculous that level four in Israel is not deemed as notable? (and yes, I know WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but it the precedent would suggest that being regionalised is not a problem for league season articles). Number 57 21:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
    • I was always under the impression that regional divisions weren't deemed automatically notable. If they pass WP:GNG, that's fine, but I think that only national divisions should have these articles. I'd be very surprised if those season articles about English level 10 divisions have anything beyond a minimal lead section and a series of tables. – PeeJay 22:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
      • There are at least two websites (in Hebrew) dedicated for Israeli lower leagues, from third to fifth tier (doublepass.sport5.co.il, goler1.co.il), as well not-as-deep coverage in major news websites (walla.co.il, one.co.il, panet.co.il, etc.) and coverage of individual teams in local news websites. I think it might comply with WP:GNG.Eranrabl (talk) 03:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep - Based on the League notability, "All leagues whose members are eligible for national cups are assumed notable." and just to mention, last season, fourth tier club, Maccabi Sektzia Ma'alot-Tarshiha, have reached the quarter finals of the national cup. definitely eligible. Franforce (talk) 01:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:NSEASONS which is quite clear that only top professional leagues need there own season articles. Seems a big WP:NOTSTATS violation as well. @Franforce:, @Number 57: your comments seem to misunderstand that this is an AfD about a season article, not the league, unless I have misread them. Fenix down (talk) 15:24, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @Fenix down: WP:NSEASONS is about seasons of individual clubs, which I fully agree should only be allowed for fully-professional leagues (and have argued this in the past when people have created season articles on clubs in the Football Conference, for instance). However, we are talking about a league season here, not a club one, and as I pointed out, these are widely extant for numerous non-professional leagues (e.g. this level 9/10 league in England). I've also amended my initial response. Number 57 15:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

• Delete - fails WP:NSEASONS. Lower level leagues do not merit individual season articles if GNG is not met. GiantSnowman 09:15, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @GiantSnowman: It can't fail WP:NSEASONS, because that guideline is only about seasons for individual clubs. This is about a league season, and there are numerous other examples of lower league seasons on Misplaced Pages (all the way down to level 10 in England). Number 57 11:50, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
    • WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 11:58, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
      • I already addressed that argument above. Eranbl also pointed out that there is coverage of this league which counts towards WP:GNG. Number 57 12:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
• Delete. Fails WP Nseasons. Szzuk (talk) 15:15, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I know it isn't a team, still fails. Szzuk (talk) 15:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
    • That makes no sense. The guideline is not about league seasons, so it cannot fail it. Number 57 16:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
      • There is no specific guidance for such a specific case as this. Nseasons is as close as we're going to get. The whole league is barely notable so why we'd want whole unpopulated seasons is beyond me. Szzuk (talk) 17:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
        • League seasons are magnitudes more notable than club seasons, so the guideline is not relevant in any way. As I've pointed out already, numerous other articles on regional league seasons exist, and have done for several years. As for this being "unpopulated", have you even looked at the article? It's complete - it has the league tables, playoff results, club changes etc. Number 57 17:17, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
          • I've seen the article, it is populated in all the ways Nseasons say we should avoid...Szzuk (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
            • Again, Nseasons is irrelevant, as it is about club seasons. But anyway, it has enough prose in it to qualify for WP:DYK, so it's clearly a viable article. Number 57 17:39, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
              • I think the information needs summarising and a paragraph placed in the league article. Szzuk (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seddon 19:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Keep - in addition to the earlier arguments, if deleted, this would have to be redirected and merged to 20 other articles about the league. But then we'd be looking at splitting that article because it's too big. This works. No harm, no foul. Nfitz (talk) 18:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
• Keep As per Number 57 and Eranrabl .Strictly speaking WP:NSEASONS is about individual club seasons not about the league seasons.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Finally, someone that has actually read the guideline! Number 57 12:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 04:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Procedural Note: This debate was closed as 'keep' by a non-administrator. This closure was in error, as there is no consensus whatsoever in the above discussion. While acknowledging that this discussion has been going on for some time and a resolution would be good, I have relisted for another 7 days so hopefully consensus can be reached one way or another in the additional period. Obviously, if that isn't possible, closing as "no consensus" would be appropriate. Daniel (talk) 04:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Keep - As above with the other keep arguments. I think its unfair to deem this to fail notability, fact is it's a well written article and I were to be involved in Israeli football I would appreciate this. Regionality doesn't really mean it can't have a separate article - many countries a) frequently change the regions and how lower league are organised, so who knows this could become a national league one day, and b) have even 2nd tiers regionalised, for example Bulgaria has done so until recently. This season seems to important also with the fact that it was the closure of Liga Artzit which means that the season was important in terms of restructuring the league. Anyway who are we to say the English Conference North/South (7th tier) is more notable than the Israeli 4th division. Abcmaxx (talk) 15:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.