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Move review for Budweiser

An editor has asked for a Move review of Budweiser. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. Jirka.h23 (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Budweiser move - I see no consensus

Before I go to WP:MR, I would like to understand why you thought there was a consensus in favour of a move. It seemed very clear to me that there was no such consensus: the three options proposed received broadly equal votes, though the Anheuser Busch option received least. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course. As I said, this was a very difficult close and I put a lot of thought into it. By my count there were 3 participants who wanted the dab page to stay at the base name: In ictu oculi, IJA, and Yaksar (I actually miscounted this in my close; a fourth participant, Edwardx, went on to support one of the move options). Several of these fail to take into account English-language use, and I considered their arguments less convincing. The other 12 participants favored one or the other move options. Of them, the majority, 7, favored the proposed move: Purplebackpack89, bd2412, Calidum, AjaxSmack, Red_Slash, Born2Cycle, and SilkTork. 5 more participants felt there should be a move of Budweiser trademark dispute (back) to Budweiser: 65.94.169.222, Jenks24, Wbm1058, Edwardx, and Gregkaye. In general, I found the arguments supporting a move to be stronger than those against. And of the two, the proposed move had the better support.

Leaving the dab page at the base name may initially seem like the obvious result, but it would have been going with an option favored by only 3 of 15 participants. There's also a matter I chose not to get into in my close, that the articles were recently moved around without discussion, which further confuses things. In other words, the proper result of a "no consensus" close would have been to move the concept dab page back to Budweiser, rather than leave the dab page there. This could be an acceptable result, but again, I felt consensus leaned roughly toward the proposed move: some move was clearly favored, and this was the best supported of the two discussed move options, it was the best supported individual option, and the !voters had strong arguments.--Cúchullain /c 20:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• It was an excellent close. Well explained. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, SmokeyJoe. It certainly took me a while ;)--Cúchullain /c 23:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

It took me a long time to decide that I couldn't decide. In particular, I like the observation that the status quo was not well supported, and there was a rough consensus for a direction to go. I recommend that any further discussion focus on developing a consensus for the next step. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Reasonable close IMO. Thanks for taking the time to make it, wouldn't have been an easy call whichever way you went. I probably didn't help much by muddying the waters and talking about restoring the concept dab. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Jenks. And don't worry, the waters were plenty muddy already! Your suggestion was entirely reasonable and I strongly considered it, but ultimately decided to go with the option supported by more participants and their equally reasonable arguments. All in all, a very complex decision.--Cúchullain /c 12:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Due process

My understanding of the convention in dealing with RtM is this: unless there is a clear consensus for change, then the article stays as it is. It is not enough to say that you found the arguments convincing: you are not judge, jury and executioner. As an Administrator, you may only determine whether the Request has been managed fairly: you may only make a judgement call if there is a substantial majority but a small but noisy minority. That was not true in this case. You go on to assert that arguments against should be discounted because, in your opinion, "these fail to take into account English-language use". First, you have no right to discount votes like that and in any case I think you mean 'American language' use. Please remember that there is wide international readership for en.wikipedia because English is the most common second language. And for what its worth, many restaurants and up-market bars in the UK serve Budweiser Budvar rather than Bud. Finally, two wrongs don't make a right: I questioned the editor who moved this article to a simple disambig without consultation, but nobody but I and the mover showed any interest. I'm somewhat amazed by the number of editors that came out of the woodwork when a proposal was made to give a US corporation precedence, timed perfectly for the August holiday season in Europe. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:59, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Closers are absolutely expected to use their judgment to determine the quality of arguments in light of the relevant policies. Consensus is not a vote, and limited local discussions can't override the project-wide consensus behind the policies. As for English use, that's a key part of our naming policies and guidelines. WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and the WP:NAMINGCRITERIA all indicate that we rely on English use and sources (no, not "American language") in determining titles on the English Misplaced Pages (because we're trying to ensure that our English-speaking readership can find the information they want easily). Those opposing the proposed move made no argument that the Czech beers are commonly known as just "Budweiser" in English, which weakens their argument that they're so commonly known as "Budweiser" that the Busch product can't be the primary topic. But at any rate, the local consensus was against leaving the dab page as Budweiser; only 3 of 15 participants advocated that option.--Cúchullain /c 20:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Reboot

We went through a long debate three years ago about whether a certain film was a reboot or a prequel. I see no use in opening the door to that debate again by mentioning original possible conceptions in the article. The film is a series reboot. Unless you're going to spend lots of space on explaining how it became a series reboot and was no longer a prequel by the time it entered production, no good will come from mentioning that word. You're not giving space to all the other decisions that went into its early development, so there's no need for this detail. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about debates that happened at other articles, but the problem is your edit didn't accurately follow the cited source. I'm fine with describing the movie as a "reboot" in the lead and most references, but a good portion of that interview is Jaffa and Silver talking about various possible conceptions of how it's related to Planet, and they're specifically non-committal about it being a "reboot". As such, saying it was "conceived as a reboot" isn't a fair representation of what they say. Your edit also introduced some unnecessary passive voice.

The key information to get across is that this is/was a(nother) stab at the franchise, but it's not another straightforward sequel or remake (like all the other films made before it). I used this source because I couldn't find any better ones. I found nothing from Variety, Hollywood Reporter or other quality sources, and I couldn't find anything but blogs, middling entertainment websites, and press releases, which I'd like to avoid as we prepare for a GA/FA push. At least this piece is an interview with the writers themselves. If you can find a better source for the early part of the film's writing and development, I'd be amenable to changing the wording.--Cúchullain /c 23:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Certainly the main point is that this was another relaunch. My edit was accurate to that point. Don't say it was inaccurate because it left something out - something that is unnecessary and confusing to the reader. Once you open the prequel door, you have to spend time closing it. Either do that, or remove the prequel question entirely. It's unnecessary in an article on the whole franchise, and everyone involved knew it was a reboot before it got the green light. Jaffa even says "I guess, if I had to pick, I would say reboot." So why do you want to open this door? There's no need to include it just because a good portion of that interview is Jaffa and Silver talking about various possible conceptions of how it's related to Planet. The article's not on that interview, it's on the franchise. - Gothicfilm (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No, but we're using that interview as the source for how the project was conceived, and we have to follow it accurately. Unequivocally stating it was "conceived as a reboot" is simply not an accurate representation of that source. Unless you have a better source to discuss, there's really nothing else to do here.--Cúchullain /c 20:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Small details from a source are used all the time as a ref, without reflecting the overall scope of that source. But I'm sure you already know that. You have given no reason for why that detail needs to be in there. Again, Jaffa even says "I guess, if I had to pick, I would say reboot." The idea that we can't get across that this was another relaunch without going into that detail because it's included in that one source is, to put it politely, invalid. The wording can be re-edited in any number of ways, leaving out prequel issues, and still be accurate. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:46, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Small details can be taken from a source when they're accurate representations of what it says, and that's not. Both Jaffa and Silver are all over the place about what exactly it is and how it relates to the original. There is absolutely no reason we can't or shouldn't say "reboot or prequel"; it's a perfectly reasonable summary of their ambivalent comments. Again, unless you have a better source for how the script was conceived that says this wasn't a prequel, there's really nothing else to discuss here.--Cúchullain /c 22:02, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Again, Jaffa even says "I guess, if I had to pick, I would say reboot." But if you insist on opening the issue, it has to be closed. Otherwise one could oppose the article as GA/FA on the grounds it fails to accurately classify the finished film. I'll add a quote to the article, which of course means it will be more lengthy. On this one detail. Which I tried to avoid. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

That cherry-picked quote does not accurately represent the writers' entire discussion on this topic. "Reboot or prequel" does it adequately. I really don't know why you're fixating on this one thing out of all the more important things to do at the article.--Cúchullain /c 22:23, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It's obviously not meant to represent the writers' entire discussion on this topic. And I've explained my position. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It's meant to explain, very briefly, how the film was conceived. And yes, it absolutely must accurately represent the source. Here are other quotes from the same interview:

Jaffa: "We were interviewed on the set last summer, and I said, 'Well, it's a reinvention,' and someone quickly said, 'Well, that's exactly what Tim Burton told me in 2001,' you know? So, it's really hard to say."

Silver: "I agree with you." Jaffa: "Well, I totally agree with that."

Jaffa: "Meaning, what's going on in our world today, that if the right dominoes were to line up, touch each other, it could lead to apes taking over the planet and, perhaps, getting Colonel Taylor on that beach in thirty-nine hundred years."

Jaffa: "where the Icarus comes in has yet to be determined."

Again, saying unequivocally the movie was "conceived as a reboot" doesn't represent the source. I hate to take something so trivial to WP:DR, but I'm tired of going back and forth here.--Cúchullain /c 22:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

So am I. I added the quote as a parenthetical, as that is the least verbose way to do it. The quote comes from your own favored source. The wording around it can be changed, but the issue cannot be left open. And do note Icarus was mentioned above. A number of people seem to think it is a worthy subject of interest. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It's frustrating you went ahead with that addition, after I specifically objected to it and recommended we seek dispute resolution. Frankly, working with you has been frustrating in general. I'm going to file for WP:3O.--Cúchullain /c 01:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Anyone reading the above can see you objected to "conceived as a reboot", and you wanted to take that to WP:DR even though I never proposed that on this Talk page. And that is not what I just put in. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I also objected to you adding that cherry-picked quote and gave a long explanation why. It's clear this is getting no where. I've started a WP:3O request.--Cúchullain /c 02:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Blacktown

Hi. What's the issue with moving Blacktown to Blacktown, NSW?

Sardaka (talk) 08:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sardaka, as I said, there was a requested move discussion (here) that resulted in the article being moved to Blacktown. Since the name was decided by a community discussion, it shouldn't be moved again without a new consensus. You can start another RM if you wish, but make sure you're up to date on the relevant naming conventions.--Cúchullain /c 13:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Having looked at the discussion, I still think it's a load of crap. Sydney subs are always "Suburb, NSW". Can't see why Blacktown should get special treatment. Sardaka (talk) 11:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Re Sardaka: again, you're welcome to start another RM to get community input, but make sure you're up to speed on the naming conventions. The first place to start is WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Additionally, a cursory look shows that plenty of Sydney suburbs are under their names without "New South Wales": Bungarribee, Horningsea Park, Mount Pritchard, etc. It's possible the naming conventions have changed, though a lot of the articles will need the "NSW" to disambiguate them from other topics with the same name.--Cúchullain /c 12:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

GamerGate

I can see that article probably getting quite heated very quickly and is tied in with current Sarkeesian events, so we may end up with another fork. Koncorde (talk) 09:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, possibly worse still it has been deleted, so expect some fallout on the Sarkeesian and Quinn articles. Don't agree with the deletion rationale used, it was far from an "attack" article - it was just weak. Koncorde (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I must have missed that. What happened here?--Cúchullain /c 14:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

GamerGate had an article span off, just a stub. No real content, but opened potential for people to push POV (which it almost entirely is anyway as most news media have only dealt with it in Op-Ed it seems). I raised concerns it was needless or should be part of parent articles such as gaming culture or gaming journalism where relevant / significant. In the end, creating articles for every meme or hashtag is a OTT. Someone rushed through a delete. My concern would be the usual accusations of suppression spilling over. Koncorde (talk) 16:08, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, I can't say I'm overly worried about "suppression" accusations, considering that folks can continue the discussion in various venues so long as they play by the rules. I would definitely agree that splitting off the fork totally unnecessary, and probably counter productive to producing real encyclopedic coverage. As we saw with Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, we've now got a mostly redundant second article that's stayed in a perpetually crap state, and at the same time created a second thing to worry about for editors who could be devoting their attention to improving the main article. "GamerGate" would have been even worse, since it's a one-time news story most folks will lose interest in quickly. In general I don't see the deletion as nearly as much of a problem as the fork would have been.--Cúchullain /c 18:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it's back up. I'll look into it.--Cúchullain /c 19:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I began the GamerGate article which was deleted (I think in error), and quickly replaced. As things now stand I want to thank you for WP:GOLDLOCK. A difficult editing environment is one thing, but GamerGate is not just radioactive, it's radioactive in ways I haven't seen in my eight years as a Wikipedian! Quite the learning experience, that. kencf0618 (talk) 22:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I would have pictured that, sadly. I'm sure things will die down once it passes through the media cycle. Then the trick is maintaining it through the years when fewer editors are interested.--Cúchullain /c 23:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It has gotten more coverage in the business press (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20140906VL200.html) and even in the The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression-quest), so the media cycle's not quite over yet. kencf0618 (talk) 23:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, with a lot of these it starts getting to the weekly and monthly dead tree press after it's already cycled through online; they then write about "the story so far", then about the reaction to their story on the story so far, etc. In this case it may go even longer, since "GamerGate" isn't even the real story, it's just a convenient point where the ongoing stories of misogyny in digital culture and ethics in video game journalism intersected. As with anything, though, it will eventually die down, and we've got to be vigilant in maintaining order.--Cúchullain /c 23:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Please semi-protect Depression Quest as well. Thanks. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

This article is quickly becoming a cesspit. Needs attention from a broader swath of editors to avoid BLP disaster, more or less. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Freedom

Hi Cuchullain! It seems that when you moved Freedom to Freedom (disambiguation), and then changed Freedom to redirect to Liberty, you didn't take into account all the pages that were linking to Freedom, such as Freedom (song). A bot "fixed" the double redirect by changing Freedom (song) from linking to Freedom#Songs to Liberty#Songs, which doesn't exist. Instead, it should have changed it to Freedom (disambiguation)#Songs. This is one of 14 bad edits that the bot made, which I am now fixing. When moving disambiguation pages in the future, could you please remember to change all the incoming links before a bot messes them up? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I usually try to catch that. Thanks for the reminder.--Cúchullain /c 14:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

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Anita Sarkeesian

Hi! Just wanted to say, I hope it's well worth your time keeping criticism off Anita's page, because it's coming whether you like it or not. It is out there, it's not being given attention, and we will not give up until it does. What's the point of what you're doing? Are you going to keep this up forever? Who's paying you?