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Gender Gap Task Force Issues

Initiated by Robert McClenon (talk) at 16:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Robert McClenon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Eric Corbett (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Two kinds of pork (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Carolmooredc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Neotarf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Carolmooredc: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ACarolmooredc&diff=624688611&oldid=624677750

Eric Corbett: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AEric_Corbett&diff=624688858&oldid=624686942

Two kinds of pork https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ATwo_kinds_of_pork&diff=624689176&oldid=624112702

SPECIFICO https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ASPECIFICO&diff=624689498&oldid=624236287

Neotarf https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ANeotarf&action=view&diff=624785214 (Added by clerk: Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC))

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=624112438

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=624433683&oldid=624432719

Closed version of ANI thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=624420359&oldid=624419734#Disruption_of_Wikiproject

Statement by Robert McClenon

Recent reports of disruption of the Gender Gap Task Force, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, were taken to WP:ANI and were closed inconclusively. The suggestion was made that the issue of disruption of the GGTF should be addressed by the ArbCom. The founder of Misplaced Pages concurred: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&diff=624271238&oldid=624271124

The Arbitration Committee is asked to open a case to consider user conduct issues at the GGTF. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:20, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The Wikiproject on countering systemic bias, and the Gender Gap Task Force, are ongoing activities for the improvement of Misplaced Pages. The Gender Gap Task Force (GGTF) is being disrupted by disparaging comments by two editors (EC and TKOP) who are not participants in the task force who question the need to address the gender gap, and by hostility by one participant in the task force (SPECIFICO) to another participant in the task force (CM). The ANI was closed inconclusively. A full evidentiary case is needed to identify the issues more fully. It is requested that the ArbCom consider whether topic bans for disruptive editing or interaction bans are necessary. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Update by filing party

Since the task force has not been disrupted since the ANI thread was closed inconclusively, I am willing to withdraw this filing without prejudice and refile it in the future if the disruption resumes. (I am not optimistic, but I am willing to wait and see.) Robert McClenon (talk) 23:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Additional comment by filing party

First, the climate at WP:ANI is toxic. The hostility at GGTF hasn't really cleared, only gone to WP:ANI.

Second, I will note that Sitush wrote, at WP:ANI: "We've got the wrong target here and her

Statement by Eric Corbett

I can only assume, given ArbCom's predisposition to blame everyone and apportion blame across the board without bothering to look at the evidence, that this is a form of seppuku on Robert's part. Eric Corbett 02:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Two kinds of pork

This request is premature and should be declined. There are problems, however these problems can be resolved if everyone examines their own behavior and makes some adjustments. Yes, there have been unwarranted accusations on the group talk page. Yes there is some incivility. I think all parties should bend over backwards to AGF. Don't assume someone has an agenda (other than wanting to close the GG). Don't make ad-hominem arguments. Don't try to look for a personal attack in every sentence, as it only fosters ill will. The arbitration guide says this is not to be a debate, so I won't address some points raised by some others that I naturally disagree with. I suggest an examination of the talk archives would give the arbitrators an unadulterated version on the background of this filing.

One of the problems that this project has is some of the participants seem to believe that the project should be owned by, run by, and for women only. No one believes (or should) that any project should be owned or run by one set of editors with specific traits. This project is not just supposed to benefit women, because closing the gender gap benefits everyone.

Example 1: Neotarf (talk · contribs) asked for clarification about whether a video could be used as a RS, I suggested they check RSN and the response was Why don't you present it to them yourself if you think they may be interested. I posted it here as an FYI for consideration by the women, in the context of their project.

Example 2: Neotarf again makes ad-hominem attacks and continues to assert the project is owned by gender. That Cla68 is concerned about misogyny I find surprising--from the comments he has made off wiki I would have guessed the opposite. Likewise with the individuals who were previously interested in editing pornography articles and who are now engaging with the Gender Gap project--I can't seem to follow why they are unarchiving threads that were previously archived by the women as off-topic or disruptive.

Could you imagine the hue raised if someone on another project made similar comments but replaced "by the women" with "by the white Protestants?" I'm willing to cut Neotarf a little slack because I recognize there is a gender gap, but the small minority that are claiming feminine ownership and making ad-hominem attacks are digging in their heels and show no signs of relenting.

Statement by SPECIFICO

I had no comment when this request was initially opened. Events since that time have made it clear that the community and nearly a dozen Admins have not been able to address things in a rational, orderly, or equitable manner. The credibility of fundamental WP processes is at stake. I now urge Arbcom to hear this case, possibly with revised or expanded definition as to its scope and involved parties. SPECIFICO talk 00:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Carolmooredc

1. I think this request is premature since the three parties who have been criticized as disruptive have not even been given a chance to prove they can work collaboratively. So I believe this request should be closed by the nominator.
2. Note that everything they've complained about has been individual opinions ignored too long on the main page, discussion points, poorly formed proposals, odd ball comments and annoyed reactions to their constant criticism and nitpicking. About the only thing accomplished since the project became more active again in early July is creation of a Draft Gender Gap Task Force Resources page, much of it from links posted at the Wikimedia Foundation-sponsored Gender Gap email list. Because of the disruption it has been impossible to discuss in a serious and collaborative fashion what we think the scope, goals and projects of the task force should be. However, one would like to think that editors would take the advice of the ANI closer.
3. I should not be the only complainant mentioned because these individuals will single me out as the real problem as they have done in this issue and as one has in the past. A number of other individuals also have been supportive of the project and expressed some or a great deal of dismay at the process on the talk page; half of them commented at the WP:ANI. They too should be listed: User:Anne Delong, User:BoboMeowCat, User:Elaqueate, User:EvergreenFir, User:Rich Farmbrough, User:Knowledgekid87, User:Lightbreather, User:Montanabw, User:Neotarf, User:LawrencePrincipe, User:SlimVirgin, User:Thebrycepeake. Other individuals tangetially involved in the project have had useful ideas and critiques; some explicit supporters of the most critical individuals also have commented. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

@User:Rschen7754 and @User:The Devil's Advocate. First I believe I cannot talk about the past proceeding you mention. However, I believe I can say that as I have evidenced in the SPECIFICO section of the Disruption of a Wikiproject ANI, I have been under unrelenting Wikihounding from SPECIFICO for more than a year. See especially the April 1-September 3, 2014 Interaction Analyzers Results. Staying away from certain articles and ignoring his following me to to articles he's never edited before hasn't stopped it. Failing to respond at all often was difficult once his Wikihounding started at the Gender Gap task force. Thus I brought it up at ANI that SPECIFICO's motivation for disrupting the project seemed to be more animus of me personally (as others have noted in the ANI, on the GGTF talk page, on his talk page and even here). (Note I had intended to take other action regarding SPECIFICO on the Wikihounding issue, but this seemed the more pressing matter.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Sitush wrote on User:Talk Jimbo Wales: The sooner the misconceived "Task Force" (why not "Project", instead of a military-inspired term that implies official status?) is disbanded, the sooner harmony will be restored. He still posts at the project. (Also Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias lists seven "task forces".) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

If Admins would just page ban the people opposed to and/or disrupting the project there would be no need for arbitration- but some people want it! (1), (2) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sceptre

The community has proved itself unwilling to improve itself in how it treats women editors, and issues regarding women. Thus, it falls to the Arbitration Committee—or even more drastically, Foundation fiat—to bring the hammer down. This is something which has been obvious to women editors for a very long time. For example, see the article about the 2014 Isla Vista killings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), in which organised POV pushers insisted on the inclusion of category because the opposite category was included (for a multitude of good reasons), despite said inclusion being in violation of our foundational policies.

I recall an incident about five years ago in which Jimbo Wales stepped in when an admin edit warred to keep misogynist content on the front page. I honestly doubt that he would be able to do so now. The lunatics are running the asylum, and it's driving editors away by the day. I honestly feel the Misplaced Pages's "woman problem" is not going to get any better unless drastic action is taken. We've tried the carrot; it's now time for the stick. Sceptre 23:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: I think there may be parallels to be drawn with the Chelsea Manning debacle. For almost certainly the same reasons. Neutrality in an hostile environment is abetting hostility. Sceptre 23:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by EvergreenFir

I am somewhat involved in this, particularly in the now-closed ANI. As I expressed there, I have serious concerns about Eric Corbett's incivility, general disruption, and personal attacks against Carolmooredc and other users. Please see this section for details about my concerns and evidence supporting my claims.

I am on the fence about this ARBCOM filing. I agree with Carolmooredc's above comment that more time could/should be given to the editors in question after the close of the ANI. However, I am highly pessimistic about the ultimate outcome and feel that the ANI was not given the serious attention it deserved and that what is clearly unacceptable behavior by Eric Corbett was overlooked or ignored. As I mentioned in the ANI, threats of administrative attention/punishment has been enough to temporarily halt the offending behavior from Eric Corbett, but the behavior soon-after resumed.

Something does need to be done about the disruptive behavior on the project. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Ihardlythinkso

ANI was closed inconclusively?! Perhaps you simply didn't like the close and are now forum shopping. The close clearly implied that grounds for allegation of disruption were misconstrued. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:29, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by slightly involved AnonNep

Given that any decisions by Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force will need to be approved by the broader WP community, through relevant processes, in order to take effect, I believe ongoing comments by those questioning the very existence of the project, at the 'in project' discussion stage, are disruptive. (There will be be plenty of discussions they can argue against if any proposal reaches the WP policy stage).

I do think it is unfortunate that Carolmooredc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s personal history has been brought into this but I don't think this can be completely laid against those accused of disruption. A project like this needs to represent all those effected not just a chosen figurehead. Some people bring unconnected baggage with them.

I don't want to see anyone banned, but would have preferred some form of warning at ANI, to give the project some space to develop ideas that will be then be taken to WP forums where they may well be cut down. That hasn't happened. I would at least like to see some prohibition on questioning the project's very existence before it has time to bring any proposals to the broader community for debate. AnonNep (talk)

Comment by Knowledgekid87

This is not going to be solved by shaking hands and making up, it is clear that there is editor dis-function going on with this project. Something or someone has to give in order for this to be resolved and I do not see any clear path towards this. I just undid an edit that linked Carol's alleged passive-aggressiveness to a mental disorder: the attacks keep piling on, no editor or editors should have to go through this. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Rschen7754

SPECIFICO and Carolmooredc were both parties to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian economics, and had topic bans passed against them. To see the same two parties here too is concerning. --Rschen7754 04:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment by JMP EAX

For what's worth, I'm repeating here the opinion I've already expressed on Jimbo's talk page: this is exactly the kind of case that ArbCom should take on. (The older discussion is now archived.) The ANI/community participants failed to resolved the conflict, but the issue(s) keep coming up. JMP EAX (talk) 12:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbcom, you were saying... ? It is funny how an edit war that could be easily solved with blocks became the banning case despite being featured in exactly one ANI thread, but this isn't worth your attention. JMP EAX (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Tarc

Only tangentially involved in this one, no worries Arbcommers! As I see this, there is a serious problem if an editor or several editors join and comment in a WikiProject to which they appear to be diametrically opposed to the very premise of said project. There's a line between healthy dissent and intentional thwarting of a project's aims, and if you accept this case, I think the evidence will show disruption, e.g. "feminist bluster" and "strident feminists running riot"

What would one do with an atheist who holds religion in utter contempt if they joined WikiProject Christianity? Or a Republican that sought to stymie efforts at WikiProject Democratic Party to bring Democratic politician pages to FA status?

• A new wrinkle to consider; Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sitush/Carol Moore, trending towards deletion. Revenge article-writing on one's wiki-opponents is quite an old tactic around here, one thought to be long-forgotten.

Statement by Scottywong

My only involvement in this was to close the ANI thread. My opinion is that an arbcom case on this situation would be a colossal waste of time. I admit that I might be biased, however, because I believe that the majority of arbcom cases are colossal wastes of time. The primary activities that occur on Misplaced Pages can be lumped into 3 categories, in order of usefulness to the project:

1. Editing articles
2. Talking about editing articles
3. Talking about talking about editing articles

We're currently doing #3, and this RFAR is a request to extend #3 to an extreme degree. My opinion is that we'd be better off jumping back a level to #2.

As I said in my closing statement at ANI, this is simply a case of editors (on both sides) that need to grow up and act like adults. The Wikiproject members need to realize that criticism is not always disruption, and learn how to accept criticism and use it to strengthen their ideas, rather than rejecting it and attempting to silence it by banning editors from the discussion. The editors who are accused of disruption need to realize that their criticism will be easier to swallow if it is delivered compassionately, as opposed to delivering it in a cantankerous and argumentative manner.

Now, we could either end this now and encourage the editors to work this out among themselves, or we can spend weeks generating gigabytes of discussion to come to the same conclusion, shoot out a couple of toothless admonishments, and end up at the same point. ‑Scottywong| confer _ 17:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Milowent

I'm uninvolved; stumbled across all this after seeing Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Missing_articles and then creating back labor in a moment of epiphany that it was hard evidence the gender gap exists.

But taking this case would be premature, as Carolmooredc says. if the project fully supported it as now necessary, I might think differently. But once I realized Eric is the artist formerly known as Malleus, I laughed my ass off. I like the guy from afar, but he's a drama magnet who can offend whoever he has a mind to, women have no lock on that. A few cranky editors causing problems at a project is unfortunately par for the course around here (oh the abuse WP:ARS has suffered!), and while it may be more problematic due to the greater focus now rightfully being given to our norms which may deter female editing, this current dispute is not something an arbitration can solve at this point. Maybe down the road. Declining to take this spat doesn't mean Arbcom believes gender diversity (a ha another one I just created; wtf, how did it not already exist?) is not of crucial importance.--Milowent • 18:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by I JethroBT

Also not involved in this situation.

Based on the ANI close, I'm not convinced other editors or the parties involved are able to meaningfully resolve the issue. Conflicts on this particular project page may cease, but they will likely arise someplace else with some of the same players, perhaps on an article or on another project. I'd like to point to findings of fact in this case that are worth evaluating in this situation:

• Fair criticism - Was the discourse around the merits / criticism of the project dignified and did it involve personal attacks?
• Good faith and disruption: Was the discussion around criticisms disruptive, even if it was made in good faith?
• Baiting: Were comments made that would understandably provoke another edtior?

Arbcom has been reluctant to rule on civility-based issues in the past, but many committee members agree that it is a significant issue. What is clear to me that when committee members say things like when there is no need to escalate with snark and rudeness, please don't escalate with snark and rudeness () that are flagrantly obvious to most of us, there are some editors who persistently do not care, and it's really not OK to believe that repeating such things, correct as they are, is going to mitigate the conflicts surrounding behavior that is inconsistent with the above principles.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Just gonna say that ArbCom should not accept cases on the basis of the Dear Leader giving his blessing. I get that some may be tempted to see a case because Eric's name is attached to it, but he actually seemed to be nicer than usual in this instance. The only thing I see of particular concern that might need to be addressed is the interaction between SPECIFICO and Carolmoore. Given the nature of their interactions in the Austrian economics arbitration case, there may be a need for a more general restriction, such as an interaction ban. ArbCom does not really need to take a case to do that and it doesn't even really need to go to ArbCom should that be considered necessary. Perhaps people can take it here.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

Newyorkbrad and everyone Formulating one's points in such a discussion will not always be easy; for example, how does one best discuss making Misplaced Pages more appealing to "female editors" without crossing the line into role-ascription or gender stereotyping?

This very issue came up Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender_gap_task_force/Archive_3#Scope. Notably the two editors SPECIFICO and TwoKindsofPork raised it. I hope I put their minds at rest.

It seems to me that the idea of closing (or narrowing) the gender gap is one that, like wikt:motherhood and apple pie₂, everyone agrees to. And in a general way, of course, so they should.

However when one wants to discuss proposed actions it is important to establish the parameters, and for this we need a basis in evidence. And we need to be very careful. Example: one editor extrapolated from general Internet research "So women online place more importance than men on spending time with people congenial to them" however research on Misplaced Pages editing shows that women are more likely to edit contentious articles than men.

In an environment where these sorts of statements are being made ab initio they are likely to be challenged. These challenges come from a number of quarters, and while Eric's are abrupt and abrasive in what I understand is his normal manner (which does not mean they are invalid), the majority seem to be fairly phrased objections.

Given also that there seems to be an assumption that there will be a gendered divide (including I believe at least two women miscast as men, as they were seen as opposing a female editor's statements) it is not surprising that conflict flares from time to time.

I have asked (here) that: If someone is being disruptive, please follow one of the usual procedures so I suppose I must take some responsibility for the ANI and this request, but I did add a rider my preferred procedure is to ignore disruption, thus making it non-disruptive, and I believe this is by far the best way forward thought this prickly thicket.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC).

Statement by Montanabw

• Arbs: Please vote to decline—I beg you: Gender issues on wikipedia are a legitimate concern, but this is neither the time, the place, nor the right parties. This does not excuse anyone who may have exhibited poor behavior, but such things should be handled on a case by case basis. Discussions at the GGTF page involving the named parties are mostly just (sometimes heated) banter about ideas and any action at this time is premature. Worse yet, it could create a "bad facts make bad law" scenario. Montanabw 22:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Anne Delong

• I have been only an occasional contributor at the Gender Gap task force, but each time I have visited I have observed that whenever a new thread is started which suggests some kind of positive action or direction to be taken by the task force, the thread is almost immediately flooded with discussions and questions about more general or peripherally related topics, complaints, disparaging comments, repetition of arguments from other threads, etc., rather than constructive suggestions. While these posts are mostly couched in civil language, the result has been that in many cases the thread was derailed and no progress could be made in working toward consensus on the actual threaded topic. I have no idea what this arbitration can or should do about this, but it seems that the task force has been rendered ineffective for as long as the problem persists. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Neotarf

I have no idea who has added me as a party to this case or why. According to a message on my talk page, my name was added by a clerk as proxy for an anonymous arbitrator. Let me know if I need to pay attention to this discussion. —Neotarf (talk) 02:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion by Cla68

While we're here, even if this case is declined the ArbCom can do its part to help with the GenderGap project. ArbCom governs en.wp's administrator selection process, correct? I suggest that ArbCom mandate that self-identifying female RfA candidates be considered as successfully passing the RfA with a 50% approval rate as opposed to the 65% rate that is currently used. This will help gain more female administrators on the project as the RfA, the way it currently operates, is such an unfair shark tank. No, I'm not joking or trolling. Cla68 (talk) 05:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've made a proposal here. Cla68 (talk) 06:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Carrite

There are POV warriors on both sides of this issue. If one side believes their "enemies" (and I don't use that term lightly) are going to be routed and that they themselves will escape unscathed if this issue goes through a full fact-finding process, they are sadly mistaken. I myself believe this entire "WikiProject" should probably be disbanded and moved off-wiki as inherently disruptive. Their mission is noble, their tactics and rhetoric is not. Carrite (talk) 13:41, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@CLA. Really, really terrible idea. Carrite (talk) 13:43, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sitush

I'd promised myself to stay out of this but the latest events have tipped me over the edge. For those arbs who expressed a willingness to be persuaded, please note this current ANI thread, which has turned into something of a Gender Gap Task Force pile-on probably because of this notification by an involved party. Please also note that the GGTF, which is swamped by Carolmooredc commentary, is censoring perfectly valid discussion, most recently by hatting and then, when challenged, rapidly archiving this thread. You'll note that my initial challenge there was polite enough; my response to Carolmooredc's mostly off-topic personalisation was, alas, not.

There is something rotten in the state of Denmark and freedom to discuss is being stifled by process. - Sitush (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc. You can't stop forum shopping the same comments at numerous venues, can you? It;s like the written version of verbal diarrhoea, sprayed everywhere, irritating, usually unwanted and, frankly, tedious. My views on the existence or otherwise of the GGTF are not relevant here and I won't be commenting in those terms. The problem here is behavioural. Yours, in particular because all you ever seem to do is try to use Misplaced Pages processes to censor other people and to rewrite your own history. You've been censured before but it seems to me that a review of the behaviour of yourself and perhaps others may be in order. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc, re: this. You've misunderstood me, again. I'm looking at filing a case about your behaviour generally (latest example here, which seems absurd to me). Nothing directly related to the GGTF, although obviously you have been active in matters relating to that of late and so your behaviour wrt that might be a part of the whole. I'm not sure whether ArbCom would prefer to roll all this up or not but my intention was a separate case, which will inevitably also put me and numerous other people under the spotlight. - Sitush (talk) 15:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

@@Robert McClenon, I've made the grand total of nine edits to WT:GGTF and there will be a few others knocking around elsewhere. I'm not a major player in this. Feel free to add me as a party but don't expect that I'll bother responding unless the Committee decide to roll up as per my message above. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Statement by J3Mrs

Carolmooredc conflates criticism of opinions or ideas expressed on the project page with personal attacks. As such she is proving to be a net negative by commenting on everything and drowning out more reasonable and measured voices. Until she learns the difference between such criticism and what constitutes a personal attack, nothing will improve. Some editors on that page who see incivility in others do not see it in themselves generating more drama for nil improvement to the encyclopedia. Stifling dissent is not the way to go and neither is looking for anti-feminist bias in every comment or criticism. Bad ideas are just that. J3Mrs (talk) 15:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Noting that there are 12 active arbitrators for the purposes of this request (Beeblebrox is inactive), so 7 is a majority. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Gender Gap Task Force Issues: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <3/5/0/1>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)

• It is essential that the Misplaced Pages community be able to discuss why women are drastically underrepresented among our editors, and what can or should be done about it, in a mature and sensible way. Formulating one's points in such a discussion will not always be easy; for example, how does one best discuss making Misplaced Pages more appealing to "female editors" without crossing the line into role-ascription or gender stereotyping? (This is not a concern unique to Misplaced Pages; it comes up time and again as all parts of society move toward true gender equality.) An interesting philosophical question (again with precedents extending well beyond Misplaced Pages) is whether a task force devoted to assessing how to solve a problem may properly move forward from the starting point that some form of problem exists, or put differently, whether questioning the existence or the nature of the problem represents participation in the task force's work or a derogation of it. And for us arbitrators, the main question presented by the request for arbitration is whether the petty bickering and feuding on the taskforce's talk page will stop soon without our involvement. I hope so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Accept. Noxious behavior on the wikiproject talkpage is continuing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC) And it has spread to other venues, and some of the user conduct is unacceptable. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• The Gender Gap Task Force is, in my opinion, somewhat different from the other WikiProjects, in that, to some extent, it is political in nature (and I'm using the term "political" latu sensu): I mean, the members of the Task Force are considering changes aimed at increasing the number of women editing Misplaced Pages and, assuming they are successful in proposing feasible innovations, these will have an impact over Misplaced Pages in its entirety. Case in point, the proposal to make edits made by women harder to revert. For that reason, I can see how having someone criticising proposals and possibly presenting alternatives can be useful for the project and can also prevent the Task Force from becoming an echo chamber. Of course, there is a difference between criticism and disruption: if, after review, it turns out that a person's actions are disrupting the Task Force, then that person should be asked to leave – and, failing that, be topic banned from participating further. On the other hand, the other members of the Task Force should be open to criticism, when made in good faith, without confusing criticism with disruption and calling for sanctions merely because someone disagrees with them – and also, though this is just my unsolicited opinion, in general all participants should try to avoid letting their voice drown all the others, regardless of how strongly they feel about the issue at hand.

  In this case, in my opinion, both sides have conducted themselves in a way that bears review, so I vote to accept the case. Salvio 09:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• There's certainly problems with the Gender Gap on Misplaced Pages, one that was a key focus for the Foundation last year (or was it the year before?) As it's such a "big" issue, tying outside problems like societal bias and technical issues with behaviour on Misplaced Pages, I'm not sure it can ever be solved. However, the Gender Gap Task Force is there to try and good on them for doing so.

  I've seen some "blue-sky thinking" on that task force, with "un-wiki" ideas such as requiring consensus of 2 editors to revert a female editor. "Blue-sky thinking" is all well and good, but many people don't understand that it's the first step in a process. After the ideas are created, however "out-there" they may be, they need to be criticised - it needs to be discussed what is wrong with these ideas. If there was nothing wrong with them, they would be happening or very easy to implement. From there, a pragmatic view should be taken on what realistic improvement can be made. Without these following steps, "blue-sky thinking" can actually be harmful - insulting those who are working hard on a project and demoralising those who cannot see these ideas come to fruition.

  Whilst I'm very happy that the Gender Gap Task Force is trying to increase the number of women on Misplaced Pages, I'm not happy with the fact that a subset of that task force is complaining about the criticism that they are receiving. Similarly, I believe the level of criticism could be improved, actually explaining where the issues are are rather than stating that they won't work.

  Overall, I don't believe this issues is ripe for arbitration, but I do think it's getting close. I'm leaning decline, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise. Worm(talk) 10:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm voting to decline at this point. I completely understand why this is such a fractious issue and where good faith on both sides isn't enough to bridge a fundamental divide between what the wider wiki community views as its goals and what the GGTF views as its goals. But one AN/I doesn't make this case within our remit as of yet. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
• Like WTT, I'm leaning decline, but could be convinced otherwise. There's certainly a reason we say "ANI is not dispute resolution". That's not in any way intended as an endorsement of the conduct I see taking place here, and we may need to handle the issue via arbitration at some point if things continue down that road. I'm just not convinced the issue has reached the point of intractable and hopeless for community resolution at this time. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who thinks it is already at that point, and why. Seraphimblade 18:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Accept, this shows all signs of becoming a very toxic situation, and developing events have convinced me they're not going to get any better at this point. Seraphimblade 00:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Decline per David Fuchs. Carcharoth (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
• It's a decline from me too, per David,  Roger Davies 23:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Hi Cla68. Interesting idea but, no, ArbCom has nothing to do with RFA; it's an entirely community process.  Roger Davies 05:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
• Decline per Fuchs, and also broadly per the line of reasoning presented by TDA above. NativeForeigner 01:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
• Decline per David Fuchs. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)