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In this world, hatred has never been defeated by hatred. Only love can overcome hatred. This is an ancient and eternal law. –Dhammapada (1:5)

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ANI

I want to thank you for your helpful advice you offered me in a July 24 ANI discussion. It is easy to get lost in all these noticeboards that say "this noticeboard cannot resolve your problem, try the other one" which possibly leads to another board twice that ineffective. I wonder if anyone does that for a living? Sincerely, ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 00:46, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think all of the noticeboards need a facelift and a new user-friendly algorithm for traversing the maze. It just doesn't work for most editors in the current form. So, I'm clearly in your corner. Viriditas (talk) 01:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a no-brainer. I would virtually welcome any change that involves better usability of Misplaced Pages and the entire elimination of a bureaucratic aspect here that seriously slows down the user experience. I think Misplaced Pages takes itself too much seriously which hurts the overall image of the project and of course has an impact on the number of its fanbase (or userbase if you will). ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 23:46, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Getty Kouros

Hi. In writing the article I relied heavily of the Getty Kouros Colloquium Report. I still have my copy, so if you would like to indicate what needs referencing I'd be happy to try and help. It should be said that there isn't very much literature on the subject. Twospoonfuls (εἰπέ μοι) 09:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

@Twospoonfuls: almost half of the article lacks inline citations. In order for me to pass it (or any other reviewer for that matter), it would require inline citations for most of the article. The reason I contacted you is because I was hoping you could add inline citations, nominate it for GA, and then perhaps myself or another editor could review it. Viriditas (talk) 10:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

File:Mancowbk1.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Mancowbk1.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. RJaguar3 | u | t 22:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Paul Conrad

On 31 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Paul Conrad, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the political cartoonist Paul Conrad was awarded the Pulitzer Prize three times, in 1964, 1971 and 1984? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Paul Conrad. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Fascism or anarchy?

• "Misplaced Pages is fascism if it extends to giving the Foundation complete freedom, it is anarchy if it extends to giving editors complete freedom."
  (Apologies to blogger Trolldor)

Regarding this, might be easier for the community to influence the WMF board. By my reckoning we can vote in five seats and four more are appointed by the board themselves. --NeilN 07:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm tempted to reply with a quote from Emma Goldman, but I won't. :) Since you clearly know more about this than I do, may I ask, what is the problem with the board now, and why isn't the community influencing them at present? Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Probably because voter turnout is so low (I didn't vote, did you?), board members from the community seem to be more of the administrative type rather than the editor type. Imagine if we could get a couple of active editors on there? --NeilN 16:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Winged Victory of Samothrace may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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• The sculptor is thought to be Pythokritos of Rhodes.<ref>(Paul MacKendrick - The Greek Stones Speak, pub Norton & Company 1962</ref> When first

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Translation

The sandbox‘s Talk page seems otherwise occupied, so I thought this the next best place to leave a note: I’m getting a bit of cognitive dissonance from the second third passage. If the thesis is that the stele is about a metaphorical game, and contrary to prevailing opinion, it would seem to make more sense to say “More than (about) flowers … More than (about) Demeter & Kore.“ But in that case I would expect the French to read Plus que … rather than Plus de …. OTOH the style is somewhat elliptical, and it’s possible a sophisticated native speaker would read it that way regardless. (Or it may be an idiom of which I‘m unaware.) There may be further discussion in the review that clarifies the intent here.—Odysseus1479 23:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you're right. The author of the book seems to be adding an interpretation that succeeds the original one, that initially pointed to the women as goddesses rather than mortals. Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I‘m beginning to be concerned that the quantity of copy-pasted material (and close translation thereof) may be stretching the boundaries of fair use. Do you think we should continue off-wiki? Feel free to e-mail me to discuss options, if you like.—Odysseus1479 04:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Can I send you the original the pdf? Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

That would be great. I‘ve just applied at the Library for JSTOR access, but don’t know whether I qualify or how long it will take.—Odysseus1479 09:53, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, regarding your question in bold, I don’t think so: the passage immediately below says essentially that Hampe’s explanation raises more questions than it answers; the introductory disclaimer suggests to me the foundation for an Occam‘s-razor heuristic. Afterwards the focus turns to the evidence for the dominant view, a positive counter-argument to follow the negative one.—Odysseus1479 07:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

That makes sense. However, if you review the original pdf, you'll notice right away why I thought it was a quote. In any case, it sounds like you are able to identify Hampe's original argument as it appears in the book, and Picard's criticism from the review. This is exactly what I want to add to The Exaltation of the Flower article. If you are interested in having a go at it after you've read the entire review, please have at it. Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

—Odysseus1479 01:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Odysseus1479: FYI... initially, all I did was use the "email this user" function. Since you didn't receive any of the emails, we seem to have an ongoing problem with the subsystem, or the email address you have set in your preferences is incorrect. You may want to have a look-see. In any case, I've sent you a new dropbox link via the dropbox interface, specifying the new email address you just gave me. I'm happy to continue to translate via Google if need be. Let me know what you want me to do. Keep in mind, the copy of the translation to date is still in my sandbox history. Thanks for your help on this. Viriditas (talk) 01:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Your VPT comments

Hi Viriditas. I can see that you are annoyed about the Reflinks/Toolserver issue and the wider software development situation at the WMF. But sarcastic comments like these and less-than-civil comments like these are not helping. If anything, comments like those are going to make WMF staffers a lot less likely to want to read VPT. On a scale of one to ten of comments that will get the WMF to actually change anything, I wouldn't rate those comments higher than a two. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I present to you Exhibit A. — Mr. Stradivarius 17:05, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Albinia

Just in case you're not following at the ref desk, I thought I'd let you know I updated Albinia Cust Wherry's ancestor chart. We have another article on one of her ancestors, Sarah Trimmer. - Nunh-huh 21:00, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm thinking of creating a bio, but not much to go on at this point. Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@Nunh-huh: can you take a look at User:Viriditas/Albinia Wherry and make any additions? Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

At the moment, I can only think of using the standard ahnentafel template rather than the fan chart, so there can be clickable links. I've changed it, but you of course can change it back if you want. But I regret I don't have any additional biographical detail to add. Beatrix Albinia Wherry, her daughter, married Richard William Oldfield in 1914, and they had two daughters, Albinia and Pandora, but that probably doesn't belong in Albinia Cust Wherry's article. - Nunh-huh 04:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I have a fairly decent photo of Albinia Wherry, published 1929 in London in her final book The Albinia Book. I'm not sure that it's in the public domain, though, so I'm hesitant to upload it. - Nunh-huh 03:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Is the photographer identified, or identifiable? Much hinges on that. Under UK law the photo becomes PD 70 years after he or she died, but if it’s anonymous that’s 70 years after first publication instead—here that would mean since 2000. Although WP only requires conformity with US law, the URAA basically respects foreign copyrights on anything published since 1923. So if it turns out that the photographer is identifiable but is not known to have died before 1944, we can’t be sure the image is in the public domain. OTOH once there’s an article that needs it, it can be uploaded locally with a fair-use rationale, since the subject is long dead (and assuming no free image of comparable value to the article is available).—Odysseus1479 06:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, TPS :)

The photographer is not identified or identifiable; the only credit is "Illustrations and Genealogies collected by Albinia Frances Stewart". If that means the photo is PD under British Law, I think that means that it is PD under U.S. Law. Here's the reasoning: This is a work first published outside the U.S. by foreign nationals after 1923 but before 1977, published without compliance with U.S. formalities (there's no copyright notice), and in the public domain in its source country as of 1 January 1996. Per this table, that should make it public domain. - Nunh-huh 06:32, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

(Addendum: due to various edit conflicts, I was replying to a posting suggesting the photo was PD as of 1991 rather than 2000. If 2000 is the date, it's a lot less clear. - Nunh-huh 06:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, sorry about that; I somehow read the publication year as 1920 at first. I considered striking instead of rewriting, but didn’t think it had been up long enough … wrong! The URAA is a problem, because if the photo was still copyrighted in the UK as of 1996, it gets US protection until 1929 + 95 = 2024.—Odysseus1479 06:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Siduri

The quote was in a jpg which was copyvio and later deleted. See Talk:Siduri. Dougweller (talk) 05:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to Maup Caransa, but we cannot accept original research. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You turned Dutch "de kampen" into "Nazi concentration camps" without supplying a reference for your change. Not OK. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. The source in question referred directly to German camps, which is short for Nazi concentration camps, as our redirect makes clear and as other sources in the article note. Your warning, as well as your revert, was completely bogus. Viriditas (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

72 Hours

You have been blocked enough to not need a template. You know the drill. Your recent edits have been disruptive but not quite block worthy. You crossed that line when you decided to undo an admin edit to ANEW because it didn't go your way. If you feel the admin was involved you should open a discussion about it, not revert them. Spartaz 06:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If I feel the admin was involved? You must not be paying attention. Admin John proposed sanctions against me in the ANI thread on Drmies, and then he waltzed over and closed the EW thread in favor of Drmies. This is such an open, brazen violation of WP:INVOLVED that it is entirely appropriate for any editor to strike it out. It's simply hilarious though, that you expected me to open another thread (three total threads open, including ANI, RS/N, and EW) in which case, my act of opening another thread would have resulted in a block. I think it is safe to say that the Misplaced Pages administration is incapable of being held to the same standards as regular editors, and the involved action by John and your subsequent block demonstrates the problem for anyone paying attention. What you don't seem to understand is that I don't care about being blocked, I care about editors being treated fairly and equitably regardless of their user rights. However, I want to thank you for proving that the admin corps is incapable of controlling or patrolling their own. It's important that more editors discover that the policies do not apply to admins, and that admins are an elevated class of users not subject to the same rules as regular editors. The more people that discover this, the more we can change the system. So thank you for using me as a guinea pig. I appreciate it. Viriditas (talk) 06:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Beetstra: No, you're wrong. I never made a single revert. Go look at the page history. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I said 'editors', not 'Viriditas'. --Dirk Beetstra 07:43, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, but in context, it sounded like you were referring to me. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
• @Sitush: Yes, I know about Jimbo and Carol, but please understand, it's far more complex than that. Check out our article on the Californian Ideology and please read "Anatomy of the Deep State". If you don't have time, just search the article for the keyword "libertarian". I don't fault anyone for subscribing to these kinds of ideologies, but in the 21st century, we need to move beyond these old ideas and find new ones that work. Personally, I'm especially interested in the intersection between the values we hold dear as a civilization (rule of law, free trade, research and development, environment, etc.) and the preservation of human values. There's just not enough work being done to study this interaction, as this is where all modern conflict and dispute originates. Thanks for your reply on Lightbreather's page. BTW, I'm still deeply jealous of the drawing Anna did for your user page. It's her best one yet. You are a very lucky person. Viriditas (talk) 07:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
• @Spartaz: When you have a moment, could you please show me the evidence for this alleged disruption you say I caused? I just had a look at the last few days of editing and I couldn't find a single diff that could be construed as "disruption". On the other hand, I found major edit warring, personal attacks, and involved admin actions by admins, all for the purpose of protecting other admins. I realize you aren't very active on Misplaced Pages (and only seem to show up to block editors by proxy) but when you have some free time, I would love to see the examples of disruption you say I caused. Pointing out problems with content on a talk page isn't disruption. Attempting to fix those problems isn't disruption. Getting reverted isn't disruption. Making an ANI report describing these issues isn't disruption. Filing a RS report isn't disruption. And making a report on EW isn't disruption. However, according to your actions, doing all of these things is disruption if the subject of the reports and filings is an admin. Do I have that right? Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Surely you can understand that the sum of your actions can be disruptive even if no single action was. The forum shopping in particular was disruptive in my opinion, and that is disregarding other issues. It looked at lot like "asking the other parent" to me when you went from venue to venue when you did not get the answer you wanted in the first place. Chillum 02:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for taking the time to offer your personal opinion. I value your commentary and seek to understand it. I also recognize that good people can disagree based on their own perspectives formed by unique experience and insight. Ideally, there is a middle where different views can meet. In this case, I'm having difficulty seeing what you consider as "forum shopping". The ANI discussed the overall problem in general, and the RS/N report focused on a single unreliable source. The edit warring report was filed much later, only because the edit warring had not stopped and had continued into the second day. While I would have preferred the ANI report to focus on the edit warring, it had been seriously sidetracked by thread hijackers and grudge match warriors, in addition to major distractions caused by editors misinterpreting what the report actually said. For those reasons, the edit warring filing diverged into a new report, initially focused only on the reverts, until of course, the traveling circus showed up to distract and evade from the central points once again. So based on the above, I must disagree with your opinion. At no time was I ever forum shopping. And since you don't appear to be familiar with my style, I must inform you, at no time was I ever attached to any outcome, nor did I express an outcome that I desired. Therefore, there was nothing to "ask" the other parent to do or act upon. Thanks for sharing. Viriditas (talk) 02:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The totality of your behavior was disruptive and your actions turned a simple content dispute to discuss on an article talk-page into a multi-headed hydra monster spreading across multiple venues. Your final straw was striking out an admins determination of your AN3 report which made it very clear to everyone (except clearly yourself) that you we going to continue your actions until you got the outcome you wanted. Clearly you don't see it (or pretend not to) but multiple editors warned you in various threads that you needed to dial it down but instead you kept ratcheting it up. This has nothing to do with any advanced permissions that other users might have but everything to do with your actions. Indeed, the last time I recall Drmies interacting with me was to harshly berate me for blocking Eric Corbett for one of his bouts of bad language. Instead of making sly allegations of bias based on admins sticking together perhaps you should look more closely for the beam sticking out of your eye. Spartaz 06:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, your comment shows that you are completely unable to demonstrate a single, solitary diff demonstrating "disruption" on my part. I'm afraid that's because this alleged "disruption" you claim exists never actually occurred. As the diffs on ANI that I provided show, I used the article talk page appropriately to discuss problems with the content and made very minor changes. In response, three different edits I made were reverted three separate times by an administrator, who has expressed little to no understanding of the concept of edit warring, and feels that policies don't apply to them.

First, our guideline on Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing indicates that edit warring is a sign of disruption, and the edit warring by the aforementioned administrator is clearly supported with diffs provided on ANI and the EW board. There is absolutely nothing "disruptive" about providing these diffs and discussing them, so your allegation that I have disrupted Misplaced Pages by bringing an administrator to task for their disruptive behavior is without merit, and is nothing more than a silencing tactic.

Second, our policy on Misplaced Pages:Edit warring indicates that "Editors who engage in edit warring are liable to be blocked from editing to prevent further disruption." The admin who was reported was properly warned and yet continued to edit war against multiple users. In response to this disruption, an involved admin with a long, sordid history in the ANI archives of taking action while being involved, closed the report as no action—just after directly participating in the Drmies ANI, where he personally supported Drmies and called for my head. Once again, the evidence of the "disruption" can be found solely in the diffs of the administrators you and others are rallying around to defend, not in my actions.

When you are able to provide a single, solitary diff showing how I was disruptive in this affair, I may begin to take what you say seriously. Until then, the actual, documented evidence shows the opposite of what you claim. It shows that a group of admins have rallied around their own to defend and protect edit warring by admins, false allegations by admins, and personal attacks by admins. The evidence shows that at least one admin has misused their tools as an involved admin, and others as protectors of each other, not in defense of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines.

I'm very glad this incident occurred, so that others can see the true nature of administration on Misplaced Pages, and how it does not represent the community nor regular editors, as it seeks to promote its own interests and its own values over and above the values of fairness that we should expect. No, it is very clear to anyone watching that the administration of Misplaced Pages has devolved into a corrupt oligarchy that has no concern nor any interest in moving the community forward. Major disruption to Misplaced Pages did occur, but it was caused by administrators, not editors, and it was administrators who failed to act and take responsibility. The community must come to terms with the fact that the administrator class no longer represents them and action must be taken. Viriditas (talk) 06:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

There is some wisdom in what you have said. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I am familar with the policy here. You are not the first user I have blocked for disruption. As I said before your spawning of discussions across multiple noticeboards was disruptive but not quite to the point where it was block worthy. I am sure you are aware of your own edits but for the same of any passing readers you opened an ANI, a RSN and an AN3 within an hour of opening a discussion on the talk page of the article concerned with your dispute. Multiple editors asked you to tone it down but you continued the argument. Disruptive but not quite block worthy. What swung it for me was your decision to strike out an admin action at AN3 because your opinion was that the admin was involved through commenting at ANI although it appears that their commentary was in an administrative capacity which cannot make them involved. By this act you crossed the line and I blocked you for the disruption you caused. ANI thread & RSN Discussion. I would say that you were displaying disruptove behavior by refusing to listen to other editors and refusing to engage in consensus building (4a). Essentially you tendentiously insisted in your interpretation of a text and refused to listen to any opinions different to yours and caused a lot of drama and disruption as a result. In such circumstances you did not need to do very much to cross the line into blockable territory. Spartaz 19:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

You are describing the behavior of the administrator Drmies, who I reported to ANI for refusing to listen to any other opinions different from his own and for insisting on the sole interpretation of his text and edit warring, which prevented consensus building. You appear to have blocked the wrong person, and I suspect you already know this. As for "multiple editors" telling me to tone it down, you got that wrong as well. Multiple admins showed up to defend their own (as you are now doing) and began accusing me of saying things and doing things that never actually occurred, never once providing a single diff, as you continue to do. Other editors showed up in my defense to point this out. This is a tactic of admins when they find themselves in trouble. They circle the wagon and make false accusations and yell "disrupt, disrupt" while ignoring the actual problem under discussion. Admin John's involved closing was rightly struck out, and he has a history of acting as an involved admin. Indeed, acting as an involved admin is disruptive, and to prevent further disruption, his close was struck. I don't expect you to see the error of your ways since you are no longer active on Misplaced Pages and only seem to use your account to defend the admin oligarchy, but I think that when an admin disrupts the encyclopedia as Drmies did, they should be treated like any other editor; reports on their behavior should not be automatically dismissed and closed by other involved admins. And I think that an admin like John who has been acting involved for a long time now, should have their permissions revoked. Finally, I disagree that inactive admins like yourself should be able to keep their permissions, as we see time and time again that they are misused. Viriditas (talk) 20:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I saw that you told Chillum, above, "I value your commentary and seek to understand it. I also recognize that good people can disagree based on their own perspectives formed by unique experience and insight." In that context, I sincerely hope that you won't mind if I make a comment of my own. It seems to me that Spartaz blocked you for this, noting that you could have, instead, opened a discussion about it, which you certainly could have done. I also think that there was a sum of your actions in terms of ascribing bad intent to Drmies, repeatedly, when other editors were asking you not to. I would also invite you to consider how saying "I realize you aren't very active on Misplaced Pages (and only seem to show up to block editors by proxy)" to Spartaz only serves to make the situation worse. Again, I hope that you do not mind my saying those things. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:20, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind at all. Even though we disagree on quite a bit, you've always gone out of your way to be polite and friendly, and I must recognize and bow down to your superior interpersonal skills which I can only emulate. Viriditas (talk) 01:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope it was helpful. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It was, in a Good cop/bad cop sort of way. :) Viriditas (talk) 01:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas, I have responded to your requests for explanations in a polite and constructive way while your replies have been increasingly personal and unpleasant. I'm not sure what your objective is for this behavior, but if it was to make me cross so you can point to a grumpy response and scream "involved involved admin abuse" then I'm afraid that I have far more unpleasant stuff going on in the real world to be bothered about to be upset by you. That said, the law of diminishing returns has clearly set in and I feel I have fully discharged any blocking admin's requirement to explain their actions so you can carry on any further discussion as a monologue, Thanks. Spartaz 06:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Bad admin, no hot pocket! Cheer up, friend. It can only get better. Viriditas (talk) 06:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Arthur Rubin: I don't consider you my enemy. What is your reasoning behind that statement? And since I've got your attention, perhaps an ACME-certified sooper-genius like yourself can answer a simple philosophical question for me: why do libertarians self-identity as such, when the ideology they espouse is best classified as corporatocratists? Wouldn't it best to retire the label of "libertarianism" once and for all, and for all corporatocratists to finally come out of the closet? What do you think? Viriditas (talk) 04:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Libertarians do not recognize the premise that a limited government necessarily benefits corporations over individuals. In a sense, it would benefit the wealthy, because our government attempts to (what's the opposite of "benefit"? "detriment" isn't a verb) damage the wealthy. Since, as far as I know, a libertarian government hasn't been tried, we don't know what the consequence would be. But I'm what might be called a right-libertarian. Some libertarians do not think any government is necessary; people would naturally create a police force to enforce "natural laws", and accept "courts" to handle "breach of contract" and fraud. I believe that's been disproved. And there also exist "labor libertarians", who think that, with minimum government, labor unions would form, flourish, and be accepted. I don't think their theory has been tried, either, but I consider it unlikely, as I cannot think of many "strike-breaking" techniques which are not "legal" under a libertarian system. I'm afraid I do not understand the logic of libertarian socialism, so I don't really know whether it's a coherent theory. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The U.S. government has damaged the wealthy? Perhaps that's true in the Fox News Reality, but not in this reality. Income inequality in the United States has grown to its greatest levels not seen since the 1920s, with 46 million Americans living in poverty. This is what a libertarian utopia looks like my friend. Corporate profits are at historic highs because libertarians use the federal government as a welfare system while at the same time decrying its use by regular people. For example, Walmart cost taxpayers an annual $6 billion dollars by forcing their workers on to public assistance to survive; the fast food industry did the same, costing taxpayers $7 billion. In reality, your libertarian utopia depends solely on the federal government to survive, and without it, there would be no functioning large corporation in the U.S. It's time to get your own house in order, my friend, because when you look at the actual evidence, it shows without a doubt that libertarians vehemently oppose limited government, with the most "libertarian" American politicians responsible for expanding the size of the federal government to fight their perpetual wars in order to expand the size of their economic empires. And as far as the immigration problem is concerned, that's caused by the same economic policies supported by libertarians, forcing millions of people out of their home countries to avoid economic stagnation and strife caused by libertarian policies that destroyed their countries. And don't even get me started on the bailout of the financial sector (the majority of whom are libertarians), the endless violations of civil liberties, mass surveillance, and development of the police state that libertarians have helped construct and support. The libertarian "utopia" you promote is already a nightmare for 99% of the people on this planet. How about dealing with actual reality, and looking at what libertarian ideas and policies have done to average people, instead of talking about theory? The evidence is all around you. Libertarians want to suspend the rule of law, and the hard-won rights guaranteed to all peoples, regardless of class or income. Libertarians want to replace government by the people with government by the wealthy, and they aren't the least bit coy about this. Libertarians want to be able to trade goods and services without any responsibility to how their trade impacts people or the environment, and they don't want any restrictions on how they conduct their business. Libertarianism in practice, is indistinguishable from narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. It is therefore, no surprise that libertarianism wants to get rid of government, as government is the only thing preventing it from taking humanity back to the Stone Age. Viriditas (talk) 00:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have no idea what libertarians are. To begin with, there are no libertarian politicians in Congress or the US Senate; I thought Ron Paul was, but it appears I was mistaken. If there are any libertarian ideas put in place, it's not because of any people generally holding libertarian views, but because the views are held by others, either populists or anarchists. According to surveys, most people holding libertarian beliefs do not vote, so it would be hard to believe that libertarians have any influence. Or, perhaps you believe the Tea Party's propaganda that they are "libertarian".

By definition, libertarians oppose unlimited government. Some support limited government, and some believe no government is necessary. Hence, the people you call "libertarians" aren't, even if they called themselves "libertarian". You can't blame libertarians for the so-called "economic libertarians" who are "social" and "military" non-libertarians, and who ask for government subsidies for their own businesses, as well as demanding to have their business practices unexamined.

For that matter, some libertarians (and it had been a plank of the US LP at one point) are in favor of environmental "taxes" and laws; representing the principle that an entity can be held liable for probable general damage, if the damage occurs, even if no rational person could attribute specific damage to the entity. Some libertarians even support unionization, although I don't see it as being compatible.

I could say more, but I see no need to engage in personal attacks, as you've done above. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:58, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Please say more, as you are bordering on No True Scotsman in the above. And there's no personal attacks anywhere in my comments, unless you consider attacking an abstract set of beliefs as "personal", which is a strange interpretation. Viriditas (talk) 07:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I see your point re No True Scotsman; however, I believe (well, most of the time) in the version of libertarianism I learned in the mid-70s to early 80s, so you should not expect me to defend "libertarians" who have views inconsistent with that version. The actual "famous" libertarians I have met include David H. Koch to the right and Samuel Edward Konkin III to the left. Konkin was an anarchist (in more than one sense), and Koch said that he no longer supports the Libertarian Party (at least, per our articles). Whether that means he's no longer a libertarian is open to debate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Great. But your claim that I "have no idea what libertarians are" is way off the mark. From what I've read, the observation that libertarianism can be viewed as "prepolitical...applied autism" has a lot of support. My criticism up above is echoed by dozens of reliable sources. Peter Corning says it better than me, however: "...we now have overwhelming evidence that the individualistic, acquisitive, selfish-gene model of human nature is seriously deficient; it is simplistic, one-sided and in reality resembles the pathological extremes among the personality traits that we find in our society. The evidence about human evolution indicates that our species evolved in small, close-knit social groups in which cooperation and sharing overrode our individual, competitive self-interests for the sake of the common good...We evolved as intensely interdependent social animals, and our sense of empathy toward others, our sensitivity to reciprocity, our desire for inclusion and our loyalty to the groups we bond with, the intrinsic satisfaction we derive from cooperative activities, and our concern for having the respect and approval of others all evolved in humankind to temper and constrain our individualistic, selfish impulses (as Darwin himself pointed out in The Descent of Man)... libertarians generally have no model of society as an interdependent group with a common purpose and common interests...The benign free market model of society is equally deficient. Many libertarians seem to be myopic about the prevalence of self-interested "organizations" in the marketplace, from the many millions of mom-and-pop businesses with only a few employees to mega-corporations with hundreds of thousands of workers (whose freedom they may severely restrict). These "corporate interests" sometimes oppose the common interest and perpetrate malfeasance. (Do we need to rehearse the recent examples of Enron, Capital Management, Countrywide, Goldman Sachs, BP, Massey Energy and other disasters?) So-called free markets are routinely distorted by the wealthy and powerful, and the libertarians' crusade for lower taxes, less regulation and less government plays into their hands. Perhaps unwittingly, anti-government libertarians would have us trade democratic self-government for an oligarchy." Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Blocked

I am sorry you felt the need to revert poor sources into a BLP at John Barrowman. I specifically asked at article talk that you refrain from doing so. I have blocked your account for one week as a result. The block length is partly predicated on your recent block earlier this month. I won't issue a template as it is clear you have been blocked many times before and know very well how to appeal if you so desire. I implore you on your return not to edit-war poor sources on BLPs as it will lead to a block every time. Best wishes, --John (talk) 05:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)