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Revision as of 19:02, 18 September 2014 editNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,504 edits →Nishidani: final note to correct a meme← Previous edit Revision as of 19:08, 18 September 2014 edit undoNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,504 edits →Statement by Nishidani: Whoops. Needed a linkNext edit →
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:::] you write: :::] you write:
:::'The editor could benefit from not being an exclusively single-issue editor.’ :::'The editor could benefit from not being an exclusively single-issue editor.’
:::Even the most cursory glance at my main page shows that is utterly false. Over half of the 200 odd articles I’ve created or worked on in depth have nothing to do with the I/P area, i.e. ] (done as a joke to rise to a wry off-the-cuff suggestion it couldn’t be improved beyond a stub); ] (suffering disturbance from a ranking scholar who had a private thesis and a ] conflict), ] (reading it I detected Chinese source bias, fixed and reformulated the whole article), ] (Again plagued by stagnation and stood over by a conspiracy-theory lobby. I heard ] 's exasperated cry for help and three of us redid it to FA level over 8 months of hard work), ], ], ], ], ], ], ] (catching an exasperated remark at some forum over its state, which I hadn't read) etc.etc. Doing hard articles is a real pleasure, and I've never, save in one case, found the labour I put in challenged. The heavy investiment in the I/P area is explained quite simply. Using the same rigorous source evidence, close construal and methods I use in those articles, I am persistently reverted, challenged, branded as an anti-semite, or drawn into outlining extenuating indeed exasperatingly tiresome justifications on the talk pages, often in defence of a plain commonsense reading of the rules, or of source prose, in the face of a general trend of ] by editors who do not ''seem'' particularly interested in what we're doing here, writing a global encyclopedia that every party can read and not feel underrepresented. The result is area article stagnation, and an underinvestment by otherwise interested editors because the attrition on personal time is unenviable and often pointless. ] (]) 19:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC) :::Even the most cursory glance at my main page shows that is utterly false. Over half of the 200 odd articles I’ve created or worked on in depth have nothing to do with the I/P area, i.e. ] (done as a joke to rise to a wry off-the-cuff suggestion it couldn’t be improved beyond a stub); ] (suffering disturbance from a ranking scholar who had a private thesis and a ] conflict), ] (reading it I detected Chinese source bias, fixed and reformulated the whole article), ] (Again plagued by stagnation and stood over by a conspiracy-theory lobby. I heard ] 's exasperated cry for help and three of us redid it to FA level over 8 months of hard work), ], ], ], ], ], ], ] (catching an exasperated remark at some forum over its state, which I hadn't read) etc.etc. Doing hard articles is a real pleasure, and I've never, save in one case, found the labour I put in challenged. The heavy investiment in the I/P area is explained quite simply. Using the same rigorous source evidence, close construal and methods I use in those articles, I am persistently reverted, challenged, branded as an anti-semite, or drawn into outlining extenuating indeed exasperatingly tiresome justifications on the talk pages, often in defence of a plain commonsense reading of the rules, or of source prose, in the face of a general trend of ] by editors who do not ''seem'' particularly interested in what we're doing here, writing a global encyclopedia that every party can read and not feel underrepresented. The result is area article stagnation, and an underinvestment by otherwise interested editors because the attrition on personal time is unenviable and often pointless. ] (]) 19:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


====Statement by Zero0000==== ====Statement by Zero0000====

Revision as of 19:08, 18 September 2014

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    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Darkness Shines

    DS is granted an exemption in order to bring an article of his choice up to GA standard, at which point the topic ban will be re-evaluated. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    Darkness Shines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – ~~~
    Sanction being appealed
    Topic ban from all pages related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed.
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    Callanecc‎ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator
    notification.

    Statement by Darkness Shines

    Since the TBAN was imposed I have brought Rape during the Rwandan Genocide to GA status, and the Rape during the Bosnian War article is now a GA candidate, I have expanded and replaced most of the references on the article, removing primary sources as well as newspaper references and replacing them with academic sources. This is a controversial article and I have managed all that work without losing my temper at anyone. I should like the chance to do the same thing with some articles dealing with human rights abuses in the region covering the TBAN. I have also created a few stubs and another article which appeared at DYK, Rape during the Sierra Leone Civil War. I believe the TBAN has now become punitive and not preventative, as I have had but one drunken outburst since it was imposed. The following users requested I let them know when I file an appeal, so am pinging them. @RegentsPark: @Drmies: @Bbb23: @Vanamonde93: Darkness Shines (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

    @Glrx: It most certainly was sourced, "the widely held estimate is that almost 200,000 women were raped during those nine months. Yet in an interview with me in Dr Geoffrey Davis , who was working in Bangladesh in 1972 suggested this number was far higher." Nationbuilding, Gender and War Crimes in South Asia p 120. On "The PHR report also showed that ninety four per cent of internally displaced persons (IDP's) had been victims of some form of sexual assault". see Women, Migration, and Conflict: Breaking a Deadly Cycle p50, "94% of displaced households", and that is the source used. On 215,000 to 257,000 victims of sexual abuse, cite to Physicians for Human Rights estimates that during the conflict, between 215,000 and 257,000 of them were subjected to sexualized violence, and now you can say sorry, cheers. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

    Sandstein, what source misrepresentation? That is a PA as it is not true. I just wrote the quote above. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell:. Other than a 1RR restriction, which I would be fine with, (barring the usual BLP, copy vio stuff) I cannot think of anything myself. Darkness Shines (talk) 06:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

    Keysanger has declared himself uninvolved, however he is involved in a content dispute with myself and another editor on the WoTP article. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell:, I can assure you I will do my best not to lose my temper, and I have been very careful to not get into editing disputes when on the piss. As to your point on sourcing, no can do. The majority of sources I ues are books from academic publishers or journals I access through JSTOR. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell:, I am not being intransigent, I got the impression you did not want me using offline sources or paywalled papers. I am OK with the suggestion, but have a question. GA reviews can take up to three months, do I have to wait from when I rewrite an article, nominate it, and then hang around for months before it passes before asking for the TBAN to be fully rescinded? Darkness Shines (talk) 15:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Callanecc‎

    As I said when DS asked me on 8 Aug, I would have been happy to lift the TBAN myself if there was nothing of the same behaviour as what led to the ban. However I found some edits of concern so wasn't willing to lift it myself. Now I see why he reacted the way he did but comments like this are just not acceptable under any circumstances. Having said that, if other admins agree that the TBAN can be lifted I'd be quite happy to do it myself but I like some agreement to do it.

    Whether it's still required, if others agree I'd be quite happy to lift it as a second chance. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell: as the admin who imposed the sanction I'm quite happy for that suggestion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 1)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Darkness Shines

    Statement by Shrike

    I think DS did a good work on those articles. So he should be given a second chance.--Shrike (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Collect

    For what damage DS may have caused, the penalty may not quite fit the crime at this point. One voice for "second chance" on this. Collect (talk) 23:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

    I haven't always gotten along with DS in the instances where we have interacted, but he is an excellent content contributor and I do not believe he deserves a TBAN.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 11:53, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Glrx

    The TBAN had other issues besides personal attacks. See insertion of unsourced figure of 200,000 rapes at result/DS. Consequently, I looked at Rape during the Sierra Leone Civil War to spot check fact figures; I looked at no other article. There's a claim in the article that "The PHR report also showed that ninety four per cent of internally displaced persons (IDP's) had been victims of some form of sexual assault". There's also a claim of 215,000 to 257,000 victims of sexual abuse. The latter claim can be bound in Reis/PHR report on pages 4 and 59, but it is not on pages 17-18 as claimed in footnote 15. I did not find any support for the first claim of 94 percent. The PHR report does state that 94% of households (a household comprises more than one person) surveyed had one or more incidents of (not necessarily sexual) violence (eg. pp 2, 71). Page 47 states, "Regarding sexual violence, 9% (94) of the 991 respondents reported one or more war-related sexual violence experiences." See also Table 2, page 44, that breaks down the type of violence in households.

    I'm concerned that DS is not accurately reporting statistics and that there could be an extraordinary POV bias.

    Consequently, I would not lift the TBAN.

    I'll commend the claim of only one recent civility incident, but I did not examine civility. Glrx (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell:. 1RR does not address misstating sources. (WP:V.) 1RR would prevent an edit war over challenged material, but many incorrect assertions may go unchallenged. The 94-percent-of-internally-displaced-persons statement went unchallenged in RdtSLCW. Even when that statement was challenged here, DS neither understood the challenges nor the source. DS also does not discern that the earlier 200,000-rapes issue is not about the number of rapes but rather that the cited source never stated such a figure. Glrx (talk) 21:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell: Mea culpa: 1RR was DS' suggestion not yours. Glrx (talk) 21:59, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

    Doesn't this violate the TBAN?

    Glrx (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

    I looked over the original AE request, and given the outrageous conduct by Darkness Shines which led to the AE enforcement request, as well as during the AE enforcement request, and given that this was only a few months ago, I strongly recommend denying this appeal. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Kingsindian

    (I am not sure if I am "uninvolved". I have not edited in ARBIPA generally, but I have edited in ARBPIA.)

    In my brief interactions with DS, his conduct was fine and civil. I did not agree with any of his edits, but then I disagree with the edits of lots of people, so that is perhaps not too important. I do not have any opinion about wider matters. Kingsindian (talk) 08:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Keysanger

    I am very concerned about DS's behaviour in the Talk page of War of the Pacific.

    1.- User Darknes Shines cites A Reference Guide to Latin American History (page 155) as support for the 14. February 1879 as the date of the beginning of the War of the Pacific, The source is fine, but here are a few more: . The book states on page 155:

    Bolivia responded to Chilean protests by asserting the legality of the tax and declaring war on Chile (March 14., 1879). By that time Chilean forces had already seized the Bolivian port of Antofagasta (February 14., 1879).

    There is no support for the 14. February as date of the beginning of the war. He invented a support of a RS where it doesn't exist.

    2.- Furthermore, User Darkness Shines had no problem to invent a Combat of Antofagasta, on 14. February 1879. despite I asked DS twice (, ) to deliver a WP:RS for the statement, DS never did it. He invented a event that never occurred.

    3.- In the same comment he states To write "some authors consider the 14 February as the beginning of the war, other not" is OR, as you have no source to support that statement, albeit he self had deleted my proposal (Some authors set the beginning of the war with the first naval battles, others on February 14, 1879) and the given RS:

    I ask the members of the committee "to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment". --Keysanger (Talk) 16:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

    @DS, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that what you did. --Keysanger (Talk) 19:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Black Kite: Darkness Shines has, since his TBAN, faked Reliable Sources, invented historical events, misrepresented statistics, insulted other editors, is unable to answer the the most simple questions about his doings, and he finds always a good reason to justify his malpractices. For every of these cases you find facts in this discussion. There is neither remorse nor change. I would suggest that you again read Darkness Shines's long paper trail of blocks and imagine how many deletes, reverts, edit wars, discussions, insults, protected articles, conflicts between editors, how many good editors that never will come back, and how many wasted time for admins has caused his behaviour. Your duty is "to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment" and that is "now" and not "may be tomorrow". --Keysanger (Talk) 15:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved OccultZone

    @Black Kite: I agree with this proposal. I was thinking of nominating one of his article to GA, he can be helpful. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 17:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Brief statement by Drmies

    I support lifting the ban. Drmies (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    Result of the appeal by Darkness Shines

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Note: Without assessment of the request, the relevant TBAN was applied by Callanecc here and modified here (original AE request that let to the TBAN here). - Penwhale | 22:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
    • I'll note at the outset that I participated in the administrators' discussion that led to the ban being appealed. The appeal does not address the reasons for the topic ban, so we may assume that their validity is uncontested. Instead, the appeal argues that the topic ban should be lifted because of good article work done by Darkness Shines, and no loss of temper on their part. However, as Glrx points out, the topic ban was not (only) imposed for deficiencies in self-control, but also for edit-warring and misrepresenting cited sources. Because the appeal does not address this misconduct, we can't establish that the ban no longer serves a preventative function. I would therefore decline the appeal. Moreover, Darkness Shines writes in their appeal that they had a "drunken outburst" since the ban was imposed. In my view, people susceptible to drunken outbursts on Misplaced Pages, however rarely, should not edit sensitive and controversial topics. For this reason, too, I would decline the appeal.  Sandstein  19:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
    • What Darkness Shines now says (on 19:37, 30 August 2014) about their source misrepresentation that contributed to Callanecc's decision to impose the sanction is at odds with my assessment of their editing in the previously mentioned administrators' discussion. This indicates, to me, that the ban is still needed to prevent similar misconduct by Darkness Shines in this topic area.  Sandstein  19:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Is there a slightly more refined restriction that we could impose to recognise DS's improved conduct since the topic ban and allow him to make constructive edits but to keep him away from the conflicts that got him the topic ban in the first place? DS, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:25, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Glrx: 1RR was not my suggestion, and is not one I endorse. I agree with you that it would be inadequate, though it would not address the issues you raise, such as your concerns over sourcing in the Sierra Leone article—which is not covered by the current restriction an is out of scope for this board. That said, I'm not convinced that such a blunt instrument as a blanket topic ban from the subject area is (still) merited, and I would be interested to hear sensible suggestions for lesser restrictions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Here's an idea. Why not let DS chooose a specified number of articles (say 3) in the TBAN area that he wants to improve/bring up to GA, and let him work on those only for a specified amount of time? Then if this is successful, to come back here and discuss a further lifting of the TBAN? Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
      • That seems a reasonable compromise, though I'd prefer it to apply to one article at a time and the lack of scrutiny of GAs makes me nervous. I would need assurances on neutrality and sourcing (particularly that that the sources were properly represented—not just assuming good faith for offline/paywalled sources), but if I got those assurances and DS managed to avoid getting into personal disputes along the way, I would be more amenable to loosening or lifting the topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:03, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    • There have been no comments in four days, and I sense that there is no momentum for lifting the ban or granting an exemption. Does any admin who favors lifting it want to lead the way here? Otherwise the ban-lifting, which requires consensus, will probably fail. The AE archive bot has taken this report away once already. EdJohnston (talk) 04:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
    @HJ Mitchell -- Thanks for the proposal. Are you willing to be the admin who Darkness Shines negotiates with, to agree on the article and review the sourcing? EdJohnston (talk) 15:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
    That would be fine. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

    Haberstr

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Haberstr

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Haberstr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBEE : Topic ban (at least temporary) from Eastern/Central European topics (or at least Russia/Ukraine)
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Sept 1 Baseless accusations about some conspiracy which involves myself, User:RGloucester and User:Iryna Harpy and perhaps User:331dot
    2. Sept 1 More unfounded aspersions of conspiracy and tag teaming... in the same comment in which s/he demands that *others* assume good faith towards him/her!
    3. Sept 1 Tendentious wiki-lawyering about the use of the WP:WEASEL word "alleged" (Haberstr wants articles to say everything is just "alleged" when it doesn't match his POV)
    4. Sept 1 WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. More of that in other diffs and in regard to other comments by other users.
    5. Sept 2 More accusations and WP:BATTLEGROUND
    6. Sept 2 "There's an organized and successful effort to make Ukraine conflict articles biased." - baseless WP:ASPERSIONS, WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, conspiracy talk. Later added ". Because there is a team of four or five working together it is impossible for one editor to stop their POV push" (just to be clear, the editors he's accusing of being in a conspiracy together actually *disagreed* with each other about the relevant article. Two of them actually more or less supported Haberstr in this particular instance (they wanted the relevant article deleted) but they had the nerve to disagree with Haberstr elsewhere, hence the aspersions.)
    7. Sept 2 - more of the same.
    8. Sept 6 WP:BATTLEGROUND style comment, more thinly veiled accusations of some conspiracy and strange talk of some "New Cold War"
    9. Battleground section title on another user's talk page
    10. Sept 6 Snide comments on the talk page repeating the implied accusation of collusion or some "secret conspiracy". This is after repeated warnings from other editors and me mentioning that if he continues with these baseless accusations he'll wind up at WP:AE
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Notification of discretionary sanctions by User:Callanec on Sept 1 , note most of the WP:BATTLEGROUND comments were made *after* the notification/warning was issued.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Since User:Haberstr moved over from Syrian-war related articles (where he also apparently got into some trouble) to ones related to the ongoing situation in Ukraine, he's displayed a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, has made a series of baseless accusations towards any editor active in this area who has disagreed with them, and engaged in tendentious editing. I'm mostly skipping evidence and diffs for the last one because it's mostly and specifically content related but it has involved moving talk pages without consensus (while move discussion was ongoing), changing wording to highly POV versions and demanding that his POV is given WP:UNDUE space in relevant articles (see the diff with comment by Kudzu1 above for an example). He's been warned/talked to/notified several times. Initially his most egregious comments were confined to his talk page but he has since began to make similar comments and aspersions on article talk pages.

    His behavior has been noted by several editors (though of course, Haberstr contends that these are in a conspiracy against them):

    • Warning by RGloucester about Haberstr's WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT problems.
    • Warning by NeilN
    • Comment by Kudzu1 on the nature of what Haberstr regards as "NPOV":
    • Warning about the baseless accusations by Iryna Harpy and
    • Comment from 331dot about Haberstr's accusations
    • 331dot pointing out the problems with Haberstr behavior, and a warning about unilateral page moves ,
    Further comments and replies
    Reply to HiLo48's edit at 02:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC) (moved here by Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC))
    HiLo48, it's not that. Me and you have had our disagreements but I've never seen a reason to take a dispute with you to this particular noticeboard (and if somebody does take a dispute they have with you here, I would be happy to say a few things in your favor - guarded and qualified, of course, but positive none the less). Yes, people will have different perspectives. And it may even be the case that it is very hard for these people to find common points of agreement. The problem with Haberstr' behavior is on a different level, however. It's classic WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT combined with a disruptive approach which says "If I don't get my way, I will get back at you by making your (editing) life difficult". Which is the quintessence of WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:NOTHERE. EVEN IF somebody happens to agree with the POV they're trying to push, it's hard to defend the way they're going about it. Volunteer Marek  04:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Penwhale: " @Volunteer Marek:, can you answer Sandstein's question?" - I'm sorry, what question are you referring to? I see one question mark in Sandstein's comment and that's at the end of a statement addressed to other AE admins. Volunteer Marek  04:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Penwhale: Well, the word "obviously" and the phrase "on their own" are in that sentence. You should probably ask Sandstein to clarify if you're not clear on what he's saying. My view is that, sure, any particular one of these diffs is not sanctionable on its own. Which is why I didn't run to WP:AE the first time that Haberstr started accusing editors about being in a conspiracy against him. Or the second time. Or the third time. It was only when he kept doing it, when it started to become an issue on talk pages - in that it pretty much shut down productive discussion - that it reached a certain critical point, where it became clear that Haberstr's battleground mentality was disrupting the editing process that I filed this report. I don't disagree with Sandstein's assessment except perhaps in the matter of degree (I'm also assuming that the rest of his comment, the part about bickering is not directed at me but some of the other commentators, as the only other comment I posted here was trying to say something nice about HiLo)

    I'm sort of not clear about what is you're asking. Volunteer Marek  18:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notification of this request


    Discussion concerning Haberstr

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Haberstr

    You're losing this veteran editor, Misplaced Pages, and I've made thousands of NPOV edits since 2007. These obviously POV Ukraine entries, where the POV editors don't even allow a widely supported POV tag, that's just not encyclopedic, it's just too much. (Note that this arb com attack on me was apparently sparked by my request here: Ukraine: Volunteer Marek's pre-discussion removal of POV tag (twice) on admin noticeboard.) But, if Misplaced Pages has taken the side of the U.S. and NATO in the New Cold War, then there's no problem, because Misplaced Pages now has become the pro-NATO Misplaced Pages in all its Ukraine conflict entrie. I understand that the Russian-language Misplaced Pages is appparently anti-NATO, anti-U.S. POV on Ukraine conflict articles. Ain't war by other means just fine and dandy!?

    The critical and obvious sign of POV is the following: nearly all RS report certain accusations against Russia as allegations or claims, but the POV editors insist on transforming these claims into facts. Sometimes they do so in the title of entries; see Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2014). (On the same article's talk page, see also this discussion: POV: Claims presented as facts. ) Usually, though, the claims transformed into 'facts' are in the introductory sentences of an entry. For example, here is something from the start of 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine: "These men were identified as Russian special forces and other paramilitaries." Well, no, RS reported these allegations as claims, not as facts. I of course changed the biased copy and was almost immediately reverted. Much much more on the intro paragraphs bias here and here. Here is something from the lead paragraph of Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation: "Russia absorbed the peninsula after staging a military intervention in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea ..." The preceding is in fact a claim, and is stated as a claim in all RS news reports. (By the way, the "Annexation" article duplicates 2014 Crimean crisis. Like the "Invasion" entry, I suppose the POV editors just wanted to get a contentious word into the name of another Ukraine conflict entry, and don't care about the duplication violation. Those editors had earlier, and without discussion on the talk page, changed the NPOV 'Incorporation' into the arguably POV 'Annexation'.)

    I have a long track record of working well with NPOV editors, working well with POV editors who sincerely want to become NPOV, and an ability to NPOV improve politically charged articles: , . And I have attempted to do the same regarding Ukraine conflict entries: I improve Ukraine-related articles with appropriate, balanced, NPOV edits and, when such changes are reverted (as they almost always are), I attempt to discuss the matter on article talk pages, and then as a last resort I appropriately tagging obvious POV entries as POV. I always support POV tag application with a substance-full list of many POV violations. The POV editors never engage, in particular Volunteer Marek, never engage in the normal, substantive discussion, and never allow the POV tag discussion to play out as Misplaced Pages policy requires. All attempts to get the POV editors to listen to what numerous people have said about their actions, their destruction and embarrassment of Misplaced Pages on the Ukraine topic have been futile. Anyone who reads their talk pages knows what is going on and disinterested administrators should consider a topic ban for those most resistant to NPOV. They can start with whoever started and still aggressively supports this ridiculous page: Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2014).

    Let's read that again: "If you have not taken sides and are in fact an editor who is NPOV-oriented, please discuss so we can agree that my lead is more or less (tweaking graciously accepted) NPOV. If you have enlisted with one side or the other in the new Cold War, please be self aware and don't get involved in the NPOV discussion." I stand by it; it seems like excellent advice, and I'm very surprised that an editor would attack such a quote.

    I also stand by the following opinion: "There's an organized and successful effort to make Ukraine conflict articles biased." Based on their extensive discussion on their talk pages, a pro-Maidan group is out to make Ukraine conflict edits POV anti-Russian and pro-Maidan. And I admit it is their 'right' to do so, if they can get away with it. However, I promise to desist from making such a claim or allegation in the future. As any dedicated NPOV editor will imagine, I've been very frustrated by the successful pro-Maidan, anti-Russian attack on Misplaced Pages neutrality. I have never seen anything like it, and I hope we see the back of it soon. At the very very least, though, POV tags should be applied to the worst violators while we wait out the POV editors. We owe that to our readers. In other words, the following sort of behavior needs to stop: . But it is not just Marek who is the problem: note the quick POV tag removal here: POV tag attached. Strongly pro-Maidan and anti-separatist/federalist, which includes the naming of the entry. Haberstr (talk) 00:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Discussion among editors who are not a party to this request is now closed.  Sandstein  10:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Statement by NeilN

    "If you have not taken sides and are in fact an editor who is NPOV-oriented, please discuss so we can agree that my lead is more or less (tweaking graciously accepted) NPOV. If you have enlisted with one side or the other in the new Cold War, please be self aware and don't get involved in the NPOV discussion" seems to be an unintentionally ironic but quite telling statement from Habestr. --NeilN 19:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Haberstr: You realize that that quote sounds as if you're saying, "of course my version is NPOV and anyone who disagrees has taken sides and shouldn't comment," right? --NeilN 01:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by 331dot

    I believe my comments above that VolunteerMarek has linked to speak for themselves. I think VM has summarized the situation well. I've never commented on this sort of thing before, so if further comment is requested, or if there are any questions by those making decisions here, please ask. 331dot (talk) 20:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

    I think it important to note again that Haberstr has requested the presence of many like-minded users here and that should be taken into account. @MyMoloboaccount:, the finding of Russian involvement in Ukraine is not a "conspiracy theory" but a finding by many reliable sources including governments, NATO, and news outlets. Russia does not have to admit to involvement for it to exist. I am open to more text in the article(or any relevant article) about Russian denials or Russian explanations, but that doesn't mean excising one POV for the other. THat also is only a small part of the issue here, as Haberstr has accused some(apparently not me, but I'm not sure) of being involved in an organized effort against them without any evidence. 331dot (talk) 15:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    I believe it should be noted that this post by Mondschein English suggests that any collusion here is by that side, not the people who started this discussion. We certainly know most of those posting in support of Haberstr were canvassed to come here by them with a non-neutral request to come here; I respectfully disagree with the admin below that it does not matter.

    It also seems that there is an anti-US or Western agenda here, based on the claim in that post that "the English Misplaced Pages, on some key international issues, seems to be controlled by the US government" or people "might be employed by the US gov" and that people "live" on Misplaced Pages. I don't "live" here nor do I work for the United States government. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by RGloucester

    There is no pro-Ukrainian cabal (junta) that is out to get Haberstr, that much I can say firmly. He has no shown no ability to work with other editors, no ability to help improve articles. All he has done is continually dirsupt Ukraine-related articles with tag-bombing and tendencious talk-page requests. All attempts to get him to listen to what numerous people have said about his actions have been futile. I do not appreciate being accused of being part of a junta. RGloucester — ☎ 21:43, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

    • @Haberstr: You know as well as anyone that I don't at all support the "Russian invasion" article, for a variety of reasons, and that I vigorously fought its establishment. I was exceptionally disappointed at the decision to keep the status quo, but there isn't anything I can do about that now. Take that up with the closing sysop, not me. RGloucester — ☎ 00:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Threaded discussion by HiLo48 suppressed unread. Please edit only your own section.  Sandstein  11:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by HiLo48

    As an editor that Haberstr did contact (I don't consider it canvassing to be asked to comment on a sensitive issue in which I'm interested), I will observe that Misplaced Pages's systemic bias almost guarantees that there will be a majority of editors here with a similar political bias on Ukrainian matters. We all have our biases. The important thing is to know one's own biases and try very hard to avoid applying them when editing. Some here don't do a very good job of it. They don't recognise their own biases, and they simply know that Putin is evil. Haberstr may not have behaved perfectly, but it has happened in an area of incredible bias, where he has been in a minority against what may not exactly be a cabal, but it's certainly a culture which isn't very open to differing views. Until the whole discussion becomes a more rational one, this looks to me like a somewhat vexatious attempt to eliminate an opponent from a discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 02:21, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Reply to Volunteer Marek's edit at 04:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC) (note added by Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC))
    The real problem though, as I see it, is the massive amount of blatant POV pushing that goes on in the area of topics on Ukraine. It's a toxic area, and most of the POV pushers suffer no consequences. While Haberstr's behaviour is wrong, asking him to change his behaviour while ignoring the POV pushing is simply not a fair and objective approach. I can tell that he is frustrated by that situation. Can you? HiLo48 (talk) 07:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Threaded discussion by 331dot suppressed unread. Please edit only your own section.  Sandstein  11:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


    User:Sandstein has hidden my defence of false allegations made against me. I find that completely unethical. It's yet more evidence to me that the Admin system in Misplaced Pages is broken. Here we are trying to convict one person for alleged sins, while all the while allowing other bad behaviour to continue unremittingly. The discipline processes here are a cesspool of lies and false allegations, and no Admin will do anything about them. HiLo48 (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Dervorguilla

    Compare Haberstr's assertion: “Gloucester, you may need to reread WP:ALLEGED, which counsels against use of the VERB allege and not the adjective "alleged" or the adverb "allegedly",”
    with the text of the WP:ALLEGED policy: “Words such as supposed, apparent, alleged and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate...." Zero verbs; four adjectives. --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Tourbillon

    I can't say that I have sufficient long-term observations on the user, but there are a few things I would like to point out. First, WP:CANVAS (which brought me here), conspiracy talk and other users' comments on Haberstr's inability to WP:HEAR make up for a good case of disruptive editing. Second, I do seem to be inclined to believe the user is demonstrating a battleground mentality and personal bias. However, the latter has been demonstrated by many other users in the course of this topic's development and surrounding discussions as well, which should be expected given the nature of these events. I'm perfectly aware of the WP:HEAR and conspiracy talk pattern (have been accused of being a "Macedonian government agent trying to deface Bulgarian history" by several users who sincerely believed that) and I know it doesn't lead to anything good, but the proposed sanction is somewhat harsh, in my opinion. This is not an extreme case of disruption involving continuous edit-warring, personal attacks and blatant POV-pushing. - ☣Tourbillon 07:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Sceptic1954

    I received a request from Haberstr to comment. I haven't followed his edits in any detail but would say that in IMO there is a very strong anti-Russian bias on this page. The only things which are absolutely certain are that a plane has crashed and there is an investigation underway and there are claims and counterclaims, but the claims of US intelligence sources made shortly after the incident are elevated to the status of statements of fact. So I hope that whichever uninvolved adminstrators review this will consider whether this is an attempt by one or more 'anti-russian' editors to ban someone of a different point of view. Even if there is an element of disruptiveness to his editing, and I've no idea whether this is the case or not, please also consider whether the interests of balance and neutrality should mitigate any sanction. Sceptic1954 (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC) I hope I don't get sanctioned for writing this but doesn't the name 'Volunteer Marek' in itself suggest something of a battleground attitude? Sceptic1954 (talk) 18:27, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Kingsindian

    I have no involvement with this issue except briefly participating in an AfD discussion started by RGloucester on the Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2014) (my vote was delete or merge).

    • If Sandstein does not see any evidence of misconduct in the diffs, his statement based on Haberstr's comments here constituting part of WP:BATTLEGROUND seem to me too strange and harsh. I have very little experience in WP:AE, but Haberstr's comment is simply saying that they find WP:SYSTEMICBIAS in Misplaced Pages articles. Notice that all the sources cited below are close to American govt. The statement by Haberstr is not evidence of battleground attitude, quite the contrary. I am not talking here about whether Haberstr is right or wrong about the systemic bias.
    • Haberstr's comment about the use of WP:RS in the article Russian Invasion of Ukraine (2014) is with some justice. It contains numerous examples of things asserted as fact, when they are just reporting claims by parties. For example, the first statement in "Events" section says "In late August 2014, Russia moved self-propelled artillery onto the territory of Ukraine,". The citations is to an NYT article, whose headline is "Russia Moves Artillery Units Into Ukraine, NATO Says". A similar example is in lead, "where beginning when Russia invaded mainland Ukraine.". The three sources cited are a) NYT article attributing claim to Western and Ukrainian officials, b) an opinion piece by American writer David Frum c) an interview with a former US official and scholar Strobe Talbott. I stress that I do not have detailed knowledge of this issue, but the common practice in WP:ARBPIA is to use WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and say that "NATO stated..." or "Western officials stated...". Kingsindian (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
    I have a couple of comments. Since there seem to be a lot of people canvassed, perhaps I can clarify that in my case, I was not canvassed, I just have WP:AE on my watchlist. Secondly, Haberstr's comments about POV are a bit broad, and can be read as both a "cabal" and as, more innocuously, WP:SYSTEMICBIAS and WP:NPOV. Anyone who has experience editing in WP:ARBPIA, for example, can immediately understand that many "nationalists" (of either side) edit there, and there is a strong POV bias, without any implication of people being a "cabal". Also, since this is English Misplaced Pages, it has a strong tendency to use, (and the article in question has used), English sources from Western press, quoting Western officials. There was a recent comment left here, which gives some statistics about a WP:ARBPIA article. Kingsindian (talk) 10:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    @EdJohnston: As you can see from above, I have already made the analogy with WP:ARBPIA. My conclusion was quite different from yours, though this might reflect my lack of experience and own POV. A couple of illustrations: In the charged atmosphere of WP:ARBPIA, almost everything is attributed. Here, I found numerous examples doing otherwise. Also, there is plenty of source bias (just look at the footnotes to the article and compare it to the link I gave above). Kingsindian (talk) 23:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by MyMoloboaccount

    Having reviewed this situation upon request by Haberstr, I have the following statement. This is a new user, and the nuances and conversational style of Misplaced Pages discussions might be unknown to him. Let him learn and help to edit the articles in NPOV way. Currently the articles about Ukrainian civil war are heavily POV and edited in extremely biased manner.Volunteer Marek is unwilling to compromise on reaching a neutral tone and coverage, and is pushing any conspiracy theory as a fact on these articles. It saddens me because I once knew him as neutral and valuable contributor, who I have defended numerous times, but I am afraid that in this case his personal theories and emotional engagement has taken too much hold of him. Let Haberstr continue editing under supervision, there are very few voices that would help in neutral coverage of the subject.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by The Devil's Advocate

    It should be understood that Marek is coming here with unclean hands. There are many examples of Marek POV-pushing on articles concerning this conflict. Here are just a few: . Marek, unfortunately, has a long-running history of problematic behavior in the Eastern European topic area, being one of the editors in the EEMl case and having been sanctioned multiple times since being allowed back into the topic area. There are POV issues all over these articles and the editors named by Haberstr are indeed part of the problem in that respect.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 19:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    KnowledgeKid, while canvassing is inappropriate, the fact is that he is acting out of frustration with POV-pushing going on in the related articles. Removing him from the topic without addressing the POV-pushing on the other side would not do anything to insure the improvement of content in the topic area. It would only insure further slanting of the articles concerning this conflict.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Knowledgekid87

    I just wanted to say that there appeared to be WP:CANVASSING per above going on by Haberstr to get opinions on the section listed on

    Statement by Herzen

    Below, Sandstein wrote: "the statement by Haberstr is concerning insofar as it alleges an organized propaganda effort by the 'other side' without providing any convincing evidence." I will give an example of what I consider to be clear evidence of some editors wishing to use Misplaced Pages as a propaganda tool. Consider the section on alleged antisemitism in the article on the Donetsk People's Republic. The sole subject matter of this section was the alleged distribution by rebels of an antisemitic leaflet. The Western media fairly quickly concluded that the leaflet was a hoax, and that rebels were not responsible for it. However the first paragraph goes on for five sentences without mentioning that it was a hoax. That is not explained until the next paragraph.

    Given all that has happened in the DPR since its creation, I really don't see why this one incident, the obvious purpose of which was to discredit the rebels and so was an instance of black propaganda (yes, there's even a term for this kind of thing), should get so much attention. So I deleted the whole section. In less than half an hour, Volunteer Marek reverted my edit. I asked him to take this to the Talk page, and he did. In reply to my comment, "I would say that trying to keep a discredited story alive is a violation of NPOV", he wrote: "Because, whether or not it was a hoax, the event was notable and widely covered. Actually 'hoax' is not the right term here - the event happened - what is disputed is who was behind it. The criteria for inclusion is not whether it was 'true' or not but whether it was notable." See what's going on here? The reason the incident happened was to discredit the rebels. The hoax served its function: the media gave it wide coverage. That made it "notable" according to Volunteer Marek. But both sides engage in propaganda every day. This is just one more incident of Ukrainian propaganda, and hence it stopped being notable once the media concluded that it was a hoax. For Misplaced Pages to give it so much attention is thus to make Misplaced Pages serve the goal of the people behind the hoax; though the press has long forgotten about this, Misplaced Pages has not, so the black propaganda lives on in Misplaced Pages. This is especially the case because the average reader, I believe, is going to conclude that if the article devotes so much space to this incident, there must be something to it. This is how propaganda works.

    Finally, another editor wrote, "The leaflet was real, get over it." This is what editors who want to get the absurd pro-Kiev government bias out of the Ukraine-related articles are up against. If Western media say one thing and Ukrainian media say another, some editors will believe the latter, even though Ukraine is in the middle of a war, and the media of war-torn countries tend to propagate a high level of propaganda. Why would another editor tell me to "get over it"? Obviously, because the pro-Kiev side feels entitled to control the Ukraine-related articles. And Volunteer Marek's starting this Enforcement action against Haberstr is just an unusually brazen attempt to exert such control. – Herzen (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by My very best wishes

    I support topic ban for Haberstr. This is a highly biased participant who should not edit in this subject area. For example, in this single edit he redefines 2014 Ukrainian revolution as "coup d'etat" and 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine as "assisted Crimean security personnel and defecting Ukrainian military personnel in peacefully securing the region" by referencing to the same sources which presumably supported previous version. Speaking about his recent multiple postings such as here and here, this is a clear example of WP:Canvassing and WP:BATTLE and therefore sanctionable. My very best wishes (talk) 18:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

    • Real problem of Haberstr is not his significant POV (everyone has POV), but his distortions of sources (see my diff above, where the source does not support his edit/claim about the coup d'etate in Kiev), and his open refusal to follow the official policy of WP:Consensus, as should be clear from his statements provided as diffs by Marek. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Here is the problem. Some contributors are involved in Misplaced Pages-related trolling meaning they conduct irrelevant political discussions (see statements by a few people here as perfect examples) or repeatedly blame others (diffs 1-10 provided by Marek). Such behavior is disruptive, explicitly forbidden by WP:NOT, and damaging for the project. This is more typical for newbies who can hopefully improve. However, such behavior by experienced contributors, who edited in ARBPIA and EE areas, must be sanctioned for the sake of the project. My very best wishes (talk) 15:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by Mondschein_English

    There seem to be a few strongly anti-Russian articles on the English Language Misplaced Pages, which are unheard of in any other Misplaced Pages. I did not even know there was an article about the supposed "Russian invasion of Ukraine": in Crimea Russian soldiers were already there per previous deals between Russia and Ukraine, and they were simply told to be on alert in case the Ukrainian government in Kiev did not like the results of the referendums and tried to do something stupid, i.e. violent. Who toppled the democratically elected governmets in Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Grenada, etc.? Russia or the US? In Eastern Ukraine there are mercenaries from all over the world fighting for Kiev, and also American soldiers in the form of Black Water, who got there in the very beginning. So if there a couple of hundreds Russians there, unofficially like Black Water, I think it is just fair. Why don't all these articles mention (or give relevance to) Black Water? Why don't all these article mention the proved fact that the US spent 5 billion, Billion with a B, dollars to destabilize the Ukraine? --Mondschein English (talk) 20:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Iryna Harpy: You are very much welcome! Usually, though, on Wiki you do not just delete something when correcting it (therefore eliminating proof of the error) but you strike a line through it and re-write the word correctly. :-) Moving on, thanks for telling me about this page not being a standard talk page, I was unaware of that rule (but then again, why did you answer here, then, instead of answering on my talk page? Well, I guess I will answer here, as well, in order not to make you feel too bad about that. :-)). Once again, are you calling me a spade, now? At least you could have called me a "duck", since I am indeed a U of O fan! :-) That is unimportant, though, what's important is: where did you see me mention the German Misplaced Pages? Where did you see me say that the German Misplaced Pages is better? Did you by any chance see my nick which probably sounds German to you and assumed that instead of talking about many other Wikis, like I actually was, you thought I was talking about the German language Wiki? Talk about misreading and jumping to the wrong conclusions... You also make a whole lot of accusations which do not even have a leg to stand on: I have no idea what you are talking about but here in the US we have a little thing called freedom of speech, among all the other many freedoms that we have, and therefore I respect your post, anyway. Kind regards and "g'dye, mite" (Very American of me to spell it the way it sounds to us!! :-)  :-) --Mondschein English (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    @Iryna Harpy: You are very much welcome! Usually, though, on Wiki you do not just delete something when correcting it (therefore eliminating proof of the error) but you strike a line through it and re-write the word correctly. :-)Moving on, thanks for telling me about this page not being a standard talk page, I was unaware of that rule (but then again, why did you answer here, then, instead of answering on my talk page? Well, I guess I will answer here, as well, in order not to make you feel too bad about that. :-)). Once again, are you calling me a spade, now? At least you could have called me a "duck", since I am indeed a U of O fan! :-) That is unimportant, though, what's important is: where did you see me mention the German Misplaced Pages? Where did you see me say that the German Misplaced Pages is better? Did you by any chance see my nick which probably sounds German to you and assumed that instead of talking about many other Wikis, like I actually was, you thought I was talking about the German language Wiki? Talk about misreading and jumping to the wrong conclusions... You also make a whole lot of accusations which do not even have a leg to stand on: I have no idea what you are talking about but here in the US we have a little thing called freedom of speech, among all the other many freedoms that we have, and therefore I respect your post, anyway. Kind regards and "g'dye, mite" (Very American of me to spell it the way it sounds to us!! :-)  :-) --Mondschein English (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    Hey @Geogene:, are you accusing me of something in particular? If you are, just spell it out, will you? As a Southerner I expect a fellow Southerner to show some manners. --Mondschein English (talk) 05:50, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    @Geogene:: You are right I am very new here, and you are also right that this place seems to be extremely difficult to figure out. I realize I have been making mistakes in terms of form, but I am indeed learning, alas slowly, and I can assure you that my heart is most definitely in the right place. The English Misplaced Pages is way above and beyond what I have been doing so far in terms of Wiki Editing: I am just an old time editor on the German Misplaced Pages (one of the few to be given the triple Edelweiß award there), the Boarisch Misplaced Pages, the Alemannisch Misplaced Pages, the Rumantsch Misplaced Pages, the Lombardisch Misplaced Pages (Admin there), and the Italian Misplaced Pages. That is it. I do appreciate your answer which seems heartfelt and sincere to me. Kind regards, --Mondschein English (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved Geogene

    I find it interesting that there are pro-Haberstr remarks here by no less than three editors with whom I have been involved in a content dispute at Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, an ARBEE article. All three of them were canvassed here. When was somebody going to drop an invite on my Talk page to leave comments? Respectfully, I disagree with admin Sandstein that this doesn't matter...if everyone agreed that consensus doesn't matter in this process, why have these discussions in the first place? I've never crossed paths with Haberstr but I have been accused of engaging in POV/COI editing conspiracies before. That's ancient history, but I know how irritating those accusations can be, and I have no sympathy for editors that persist in such nonsense after being told not to. This community is much too tolerant of them. Geogene (talk) 23:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Mondschein English: I disapprove of the canvass and disagree that it doesn't matter, but I am not petitioning for some sort of censure on you or anyone else that responded to it. I didn't single you out, but in your case, as a relative newcomer, I doubt you even knew about this necessary but counter-intuitive rule. I hope that everyone here still understands that this place is really difficult to figure out--although it may not seem that we do. Although I have mentioned aspersions to you recently, there are no allusions to any interaction that I have had with you, or anyone else involved, or any area of WP involved in this AE, and beyond that the specifics are of no importance. The point is that I have strong opinions about casting aspersions. Geogene (talk) 17:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by Iryna Harpy

    With respect, Sandstein, I have to agree with Geogene that you are being too dismissive of Haberstr's canvassing alone. It may only be a guideline, but it exists for a reason. If it weren't for his violation, half of the contributors commenting here would not have turned up and started wasting administrator and contributor time and energy; confounding the process by provoking arguments; tossing arbitrary and blatant advocacy into the mix (Mondschein English), ad nauseam. This was supposed to be an investigation into Haberstr's tendentious editing practices, not a free for all as to their personal views on what the content of articles should or shouldn't contain. I am personally involved as one of the editors at the receiving end of the accusation of being part of some form of cabal. If canvassing under the header of "The POV editors are trying to ban me for NPOV edits of Ukraine conflict entries" targeting more than 10 other contributors who have been selected explicitly for the fact that they have a history of constant content conflicts (i.e., beyond simple disputes and ending up at the ANI) with the editors being accused of being part of a cabal isn't deemed worthy of being sanctioned in itself, then the act of casting WP:ASPERSIONS most certainly should be reason enough for a topic ban. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

    That is a personal attack, Iryna Harpy. You also misspelled "Ad Nauseam". Latin is a difficult language isn't it? --Mondschein English (talk) 05:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    @Mondschein English: Thank you for proof reading and noting my error in such a courteous manner: adjusted. On a second note, this is not a standard talk page, so please keep your comments restricted to your own section. This page has already been cleaned up once by administrators frustrated by bicker-bloat. Finally, if I'm to be admonished by anyone, it should be the administrators. I was, however, making a more generalised statement about the severity of the impact of canvassing. In your case (WP:SPADE), I was commenting on content which, when parsed, reads as --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)how much better German Misplaced Pages is, and why anyone who can't accept that the scenario is a simple one - that is, as you present it - is just plain wrong. I would take that as being an 'ergo they're POV-ers who couldn't possibly be neutral and, resultantly, shouldn't have the right to edit these articles if they don't agree with a simplistic evaluation of current affairs'. You're making simplistic assumptions as to the position of the mainstay of editors who've been working on trying to balance the content for months on high traffic articles attracting POV-ers. That said, your comment was designed to justify Haberstr's months of tendentious editing. Severely tendentious editing is not justifiable. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    @Nishidani: I'm disappointed to find that you've made assumptions as to my neutrality, and the neutrality of other mainstay editors who were named by Haberstr as being part of a cabal numerous times. As you haven't been involved with these articles, you would be unaware of concerted effort to merge duplicate POV articles and delete a multitude of spin off articles not meeting WP:GNG surrounding events in Ukraine: we've not even finished identifying how many there are flying under the radar. If you'd care to read the talk pages (including numerous of archived pages) of just a couple of the main articles attentively, you might be surprised to find that there is consensus over their needing to be reigned in and cleaned up. This is why the major articles have featured RMs to delete or merge proposals. It is also why they're going through major restructuring. I'm not going to discuss my personal take on the political circumstances as the content is proscribed by sources. You should certainly be aware that you are discussing in your comment is subject to WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOT#JOURNALISM and, most prominently, WP:OR. What you suggest regarding Haberstr is incorrect: if s/he was the unfortunate victim of nitpicking, I would not be supporting sanctions and blocks. If I were POV, would I be arguing to exclude these sources and reverting content such as this? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by Nishidani

    I've looked at, but only made, one edit in this area. One certainly needs in these cases some tolerance for NPOV rigourists, and if Haberstr is such, then nitpicking to get him off the page, whatever the disagreements, is a dangerous move. That the conflict looks like a possible recycling of a Cold War scenario (not only a Russian POV: several Western analysts (Michael Hudson (see here),Stephen M. Walt (see here) share it, and Obama is busy denying it), is all over the sources (here) (here), and yet Marek dismisses this. There are huge geopolitical interests clashing, as NATO tries to drag the Ukraine into its orbit, and Russia strives to retain its traditional hegemonic interests (that Russia is governed by kleptocrats is no excuse: so is the Ukraine, past and present: Europe does better, its governors act on behalf of kleptocratic interests, but disallow direct representation), and most of our source articles tend to reflect the former's interest, as you can see by the extraordinary lenience, against its own rules, which the IMF displays in lending huge amounts of money to a country which is technically incapable of paying them back in defiance of its own in-house rules.(p.s.Iryna. I don't have a political pref. either way: I just suspect that the inhabitants, of whatever ethnicity or persuasion, are going to be thoroughly screwed up, by one or both, sides, abetted by the puppets within), and since we cater to the world, we should be extremely wary of our own 'Western/Nato/US' source bias.Nishidani (talk) 13:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

    Extremely well said! I could have maybe said something similar if I were half as eloquent! --Mondschein English (talk) 18:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    Iryna. I made no assumptions about you. I had to override my instinctive desire not to offend an editor for whom I have high regard, and whose edits have always struck me, where I encounter them, as informed by fine judgement. Note particularly, that I wrote if. I.e. I am not competent to make a call on Haberstr's edit history, and leave that to others. I am competent in judging (I listen wide-eyed, and read wide-eyed, innumerable press and television reports on that area that are farcical, as they are in the I/P area) WP:Systemic bias, and that is a very real risk in articles on the Ukraine, most notably in 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine, Russian invasion of Ukraine (2014). I work daily in one of the worst POV-driven areas, and with many editors whose approach there strikes me as erratic, nationalistic, and worse (on both sides, though mainly one). I just put up with it. If I ran to AE on strict principles, I'd be here all day, instead of actually resolving edit impasses concretely. It should be a measure of last resort, and Marek's evidence, and the fact that so many serious scholars think Western reportage is woeful, inspired my reluctant note. Regards.Nishidani (talk) 08:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

    Comment by Moscow Connection

    I am against any ban or topic ban for Haberstr.

    I've looked at the diffs provided by the requester and I see nothing bad apart except some mild frustration from not being able to change the articles. It is understandable that when a person sees something terribly unfair, he wants to fix it immediately and is frustrated that he is being reverted and drawn into a never-ending discussion. The articles are indeed pro-Maidan POV and there are indeed some editors who may have looked to Haberstr like they were supporting each other in the purpose of keeping the articles in their present state.

    As for the accusations of WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, I think Haberstr behaved "civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation". Even if he said something impolite, when all his changes were being reverted, there wasn't not much choice left but to "fight" for the good of Misplaced Pages. Cause non-neutral articles like these discredit the whole encyclopedia.

    (I don't want what I said to look like I'm accusing RGloucester and Iryna Harpy . They certainly don't "work with" Volunteer Marek, they are polite, they listen to other people's opinions, and I think they try to be neutral. But the problem is that their political views aren't exactly balanced... So if anyone wants to make an article less non-neutral, he has to put a lot of effort into convincing them... For example, I went away after this and this cause I understoood that Misplaced Pages is not worth the effort. But Haberstr stayed and "fought" for a better Misplaced Pages, and the requester tries to have him blocked for this. What will the outcome be? One good editor less? Ukraine-related articles fully controlled by Volunteer Marek and people biased towards the current Ukrainian regime?) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:43, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

    Result concerning Haberstr

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    A notice to all bystanders: Please stop arguing and bickering among yourselves, you're wasting your time. I couldn't care less about whatever opinions any of you might have about who is at fault here. The only thing that matters to me as an admin here is evidence, i.e., dated and explained diffs of actionable misconduct.

    Now, I see a lot of assuming bad faith on both parts of the dispute here, but I'm currently at a loss as to how we might translate this into useful admin action. None of the reported diffs by Haberstr strike me as obviously sanctionable on their own. Nonetheless, the statement by Haberstr is concerning insofar as it alleges an organized propaganda effort by the "other side" without providing any convincing evidence. This contributes to a picture of a battleground attitude that might require a topic ban. Any other admin opinions?  Sandstein  11:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

    • AE is part of the Arbitration umbrella, and as such we generally do not like people making threaded comments (especially since it can spiral out of control quickly). That being said: Allegation (both the term and action of Haberstr) should not be used unless that is the actual case. Thus, @Haberstr:: can you provide hard evidence to back up your allegation? @Volunteer Marek:, can you answer Sandstein's question? - Penwhale | 04:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    • @Volunteer Marek: I believe that Sandstein's assessment refers the diffs supplied by you (the "None of the reported diffs by Haberstr strike me as obviously sanctionable on their own." part), and I would like some more information on them. - Penwhale | 16:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    Re-reading this thread makes me instinctively want to topic-ban several participants, including Haberstr and Herzen for contributing to a battleground atmosphere by casting fellow Wikipedians in the role of operatives of a propaganda network, as well as others for casting aspersions and pointless ranting. (The only thing that does not bother me is the canvassing. This is not a consensus-based process, so it doesn't matter who makes statements.) Assuming that most of my admin colleagues will not want to go along with that, I recommend that we close this request with no action, except a reminder that others expressing opinions or making content edits with which one disagrees does not necessarily make them POV-pushers or enemy intelligence operatives. Comment on content, not on the contributor.  Sandstein  18:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    If you wanted to propose something a little more refined than a topic ban, Sandstein, I'd be open to persuasion. Perhaps a specific restriction against casting aspersions, backed up by lengthy blocks for violations? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    I'm not a fan of complicated sanctions. They tend to lead to an enforcement overhead that is not proportionate to their usefulness.  Sandstein  10:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

    Canvassing is bad behavior, even though AE has some structural immunity to being swayed by canvassing. Blocks for bad behavior are something we can consider here. Also, consider how we would normally handle complaints of WP:ARBPIA violations. If we saw so much partisanship and blanket accusations of ganging-up in an ARBPIA complaint we would probably issue topic bans for WP:BATTLE editing. I suggest admins should consider rereading the diffs 1 through 10 provided by User:Volunteer Marek at the top of this complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

    Because of continued bickering and battleground-like conduct among editors who are not party to this request, I've closed off discussion among them, although any existing informative opinions should of course still be taken into account. Now, on the merits, I think that we should close this with a warning to most participants that any battleground-like conduct, canvassing, soapboxing etc. may lead to a topic ban without further discussion. But if any admin wants to impose topic bans or other sanctions on the basis of the evidence already before us, then I could understand that too.  Sandstein  10:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I've read through all the comments on this request and checked out Haberstr's past record at the admin boards. At present I don't see a need to topic ban User:Haberstr. But it is clear that he engaged in non-neutral canvassing and I recommend a one-week block for that. Even if he's correct that some of our articles aren't neutral he needs to patiently work with others to get them changed. He appears to be convinced that the justice of his cause excuses his bad behavior. As User:Sandstein observes, he exhibits a battleground attitude and casts 'fellow Wikipedians as the operatives of a propaganda network.'
    • Haberstr seems to believe he is entitled to place a POV tag on articles he disagrees with: 'These obviously POV Ukraine entries, where the POV editors don't even allow a widely supported POV tag, that's just not encyclopedic, it's just too much.' Our Misplaced Pages practice is that the POV tag is placed to allow a respectful discussion of the POV issues to take place, and its continued presence requires consensus, not just the opinion of one person. EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

    Nishidani

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Nishidani

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Shrike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 13 September 2014 Reverting in middle of discussion by 5 editors that said the article shouldn't include this information and yet instead following WP:DR he reverted.In my opinion its classical case of WP:IDHT.
    2. 13 September 2014 Violation of WP:NPA by calling fellow editor ignorant and WP:BATTLE behavior by accusing other editor in vote stacking.
    3. 9 September 2014 Disrupting WP:OR board to WP:SOAP about an event by presenting his version of WP:TRUTH instead discusing WP:OR problems
    4. 8 September Blatant source falsification to WP:POVPUSH nowhere the source say that " settlers, who argue the presence of Palestinians is driving them off" .I could not find in the source that settlers said that.The source quite clearly says what is the reason by quoting head of settlers community.This edit was meant clearly to conceal those reasons to show settlers in negative light clearly WP:TE.
    5. 25 August 2014-"Your disingenuousness" - clear violation of WP:NPA and fail to WP:AGF.
    6. 22 August 2014 "Some idiot" Clear violation of WP:NPA.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

    The editor was banned indefinitely in WP:ARBPIA2 the topic ban was lifted by appeal

    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    • The editor was banned indefinitely by ARBCOM for exactly the same violations namely "edit-warring (, ), as well as incivility, personal attacks, and assumptions of bad faith (, , )." Though his topic ban was lifted nothing has changed in user behavior.
    • Its clear that his incivility and failure to WP:AGF with source falsification to promote his own WP:POV make him unsuited to edit WP:ARBPIA area.--Shrike (talk) 22:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC).


    Response to Kingsindian:

    • Please stop with Straw man arguments no one claimed that the user is not discussing.The user has clearly acted against consensus and reverted.
    • WP:NOTTHEM
    • Please explain what his edit has to do with WP:OR argument?
    • The diffs are not stale only one recent diff should be provided from the past week --Shrike (talk) 07:22, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Nomoskedasticity: So its OK to make personal comments about other users? And the phrase "his ignorance of international law" could be only construed as violation of WP:NPA also you forgot that was not the only problem in his comment but accusing of other user in vote stacking is clear indication of WP:BATTLE.--Shrike (talk) 07:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    @Zero0000 and Johnuniq: Then why not simply give a reasons the source talks a lot about that.This nothing more simpler then that.This edit was meant clearly to conceal those reasons to show settlers in negative light clearly WP:TE.--Shrike (talk) 08:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell:.How does calling anyone an idiot(dif 6) is "characterisations of another's edits" but if there will be such approach the area will be more toxic.Editors like Gaijin42 testify they don't want to deal with that . WP:CIVILITY is still one of the 5 pillars in Misplaced Pages --Shrike (talk) 05:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Nishidani

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Nishidani

    Sorry to be late in replying (if indeed a reply is necessary?). I notified the relevant page on Sunday evening at 20:29 that I would be abroad for a few days. If administrators want me to clarify any of those diffs I'll do so. I know I'm a bore at AE and often elsewhere and will simply for the moment list the chronology behind this incident which Shrike has seized on with such alacrity to allege I am someone totally unfit to edit the I/P area. It deals with the WP:BATTLE insinuation that with 1 revert I was 'edit-warring'. That this kind of 'stuff' can lead to accusations of the kind made here leaves me blundering about woefully wagging a wrinkled simian arse.

    • I made this edit 13:48, 12 September 2014‎ (e.s:relevant also to dissent within the ranks by the specialists whose job it is to select targets, many of which have resulted in mass civilian deaths)
    • User:WarKosign‘s initial response several hours later (20:24, 12 September 2014‎)didn’t indicate any problem with this. He adjusted the sentence with the e.s:’ external link to wikilink, added IDF response to the letter by 8200 members, moved paragraphs - deaths should come before reactions.’
    • A half an hour later he had second thoughts and added an undue tag at 20:54, 12 September 2014‎, (e.s: an undue tag - the leter was written nearly a year before the operation, so it is not specific to it.)
    At this point, my new edit had stood for over a day, had been questioned by only one editor as possibly undue and the editor who thought so resorted properly to the talk page to resolve the difference of opinion.
    • Plot Spoiler, a mere 28 minutes after the discussion was organized, just walked straight into a page he doesn’t edit and reverted me 16:30, 13 September 2014‎ (‎Alleged violations by Israel: marginal relation to this conflict, more of the same POV pushing)
    • This is utterly typical of Plot Spoiler's practice, day in, day out all over the I/P area. He removes material with deceptive edit summaries on sight while ignoring the talk pages. If challenged, he disappears.
    Let me illustrate. Most egregiously for a recent instance I noted, at Battle of Shuja'iyya (2014) with this succession of edits (1) (2) (3).
    he removed en masse civilian testimony from the survivors of the Shujaiyya bombing. In doing so, he was merely repeating a large deletion previously attempted by User:Galatz some weeks earlier here an edit which I had to revert, while of course immediately opening a discussion on the talk page were Galatz to consider my revert unfair, here. Galatz never replied on the talk page, a third neutral party supported my judgement. Plot Spoiler’s deletions therefore were done in defiance of a talk page precedent supporting the retention of the material. He made a brief complaint on the talk page after placing a POV tag with the e.s:‘This POV pushing on Gaza conflict articles by the usual battleground editors is beyond the pale’
    I presumed by that that Plot Spoiler considers WP:NPOV to read contextually.. Only Israel's operational tactics are relevant to the page. Palestinian accounts are 'beyond the pale' (an unfortunate idiom, by the way). When I and another editor duly responded with technical corrections, he never replied to defend his behaviour or edit. He tagged it for discussion, never made one, and disappeared, an economical POV pushing mode. A POV tag signals a 'discussion is underway'. He dropped one, made no argument, but disappeared. Doing that means tagging is just an article smearing device to warn off readers.
    • This is the precedent for why I, having made an edit, which stayed up a day, had been queried, but then placed under discussion in the best possible wiki manner, reverted him (e.s:Undid revision 625392763 by Plot Spoiler (talk) Inadequate edit summary. Subjective judgement. Preemptive erasure of disliked material without discussion)
    • Shrike almost immediately reverted me. 20:57, 13 September 2014‎ (e.s. please follow wp:brd))
    • Two hours later (22:04, 14 September 2014‎) Shrike, having just read I would no longer be available on wikipedia for several days, responded with his customary courtesy I guess by filing this complaint against me in my absence. Read that ‘coincidence’ as you will. The gravamen of the charge is that I am ‘unsuited to edit WP:ARBPIA area.’
    There's definitely a deep behavioural problem here. I leave it to lucid neutral parties to analyse where. I'd like someone who has the instruments to begin to look into how often I have been subject to this harassment by editors identifying with one POV, i.e., brought to book on charges that have been summarily dismissed. Nishidani (talk) 12:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
    I hope I am not outstaying my welcome by adding, now that this vexation is over, just one clarifying note re one of the several wild charges repeated about me. Since this goes into the record, it's something I need to set straight.
    User:Plot Spoiler you write:
    'The editor could benefit from not being an exclusively single-issue editor.’
    Even the most cursory glance at my main page shows that is utterly false. Over half of the 200 odd articles I’ve created or worked on in depth have nothing to do with the I/P area, i.e. Chinaman's Hat (done as a joke to rise to a wry off-the-cuff suggestion it couldn’t be improved beyond a stub); Homer (suffering disturbance from a ranking scholar who had a private thesis and a WP:COI conflict), Epic of King Gesar (reading it I detected Chinese source bias, fixed and reformulated the whole article), Shakespeare authorship question (Again plagued by stagnation and stood over by a conspiracy-theory lobby. I heard User:Tom Reedy 's exasperated cry for help and three of us redid it to FA level over 8 months of hard work), Charles Dickens, Irving Goldman, Barasana, Franz Steiner, Gertrud Kolmar, Tsepon W. D. Shakabpa, Docetism (catching an exasperated remark at some forum over its state, which I hadn't read) etc.etc. Doing hard articles is a real pleasure, and I've never, save in one case, found the labour I put in challenged. The heavy investiment in the I/P area is explained quite simply. Using the same rigorous source evidence, close construal and methods I use in those articles, I am persistently reverted, challenged, branded as an anti-semite, or drawn into outlining extenuating indeed exasperatingly tiresome justifications on the talk pages, often in defence of a plain commonsense reading of the rules, or of source prose, in the face of a general trend of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT by editors who do not seem particularly interested in what we're doing here, writing a global encyclopedia that every party can read and not feel underrepresented. The result is area article stagnation, and an underinvestment by otherwise interested editors because the attrition on personal time is unenviable and often pointless. Nishidani (talk) 19:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Zero0000

    Disclosure: I edit in the I/P area, though I never edited either of these particular articles or their talk pages except for the talk page of Israel and the apartheid analogy in 2013. Zero 05:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    “What parent would allow his daughter to travel on a bus full of Arabs?”
    “Jews are wary of traveling on buses full of Arab workers from Judea and Samaria,” Katzover said. “A large number of them support terror. No one knows when one of them may pull out a knife for this or that reason… your average good Jew is scared to travel.”
    Amazingly, Shrike thinks that Nishidani's summary "settlers, who argue the presence of Palestinians is driving them off " is a misreport. On the contrary, this exemplifies Nishidani's carefully measured style of writing, since the source would clearly justify a much stronger summary. Zero 02:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Regarding diff #2, Shrike had written, inter alia, "Hamas of course control the borders of Gaza" and Nishidani attributed this to Shrike's ignorance of international law. This was an error on Nishidani's part; he should have just noted the astonishing chasm between Shrike's claim and the facts without theorising as to why Shrike made it. Zero 09:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    Gaijin's "evidence" consists of a few items of talk page discussion where Nishidani wrote something that Gaijin disagrees with. The weakness of this case is all too evident. It should be closed. Zero 01:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Nomoskedasticity

    Re diff 2 : "ignorance of international law" is of course not the same as "ignorant". The comment to which Nishidani responded shows that the editor is indeed unfamiliar with international law as relevant to the topic that was being discussed. Combined with Zero's points above, the observation reinforces my sense that this entire report is itself an exercise in bad faith and disingenuousness, perhaps rising to the level of WP:BATTLE. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Kingsindian

    Diffs 5 and 6 are stale (and anyway not actionable). To avoid WP:TLDR, I will address diffs 1, 2, 3.

    • Diff 1 is the most silly. Plot Spoiler (original revert) has made a grand total of 2 talk page edits, Shrike has made 34 edits while Nishidani has made 265. Who is discussing stuff and who is not? This is typical of Plot Spoiler's behaviour. I can give examples if requested.
    • Diff 2 is about an RfC which I started, in which everyone agreed on a compromise except the editor concerned (MarciulionisHOF). The editor initially insisted Sep 12 on putting up a long rant in the RfC header, and kept going on after the RfC closed. This is typical of his behaviour on the talk page. I do not want to get him into any trouble - he is probably new.
    • Diff 3 is about a content dispute. It took place both on the talk page and the WP:NORN. Needless to say, there is nothing actionable there.

    Call me prescient, but I knew this kind of gaming would happen. Kingsindian (talk) 06:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    A brief comment on diff 5. It was a productive discussion (though very long), and the editor (WarKosign) himself finally swapped the picture for another one I had suggested. Kingsindian (talk) 09:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Johnuniq

    Diff 4 asserts that this edit was "Blatant source falsification" because the source does not say "settlers, who argue the presence of Palestinians is driving them off". However, the edit is not falsification—it is simply a brief summary of the key points from the source. The source's heading includes "settlers demand Palestinian-free buses", and paragraph 4 includes the view of a spokesman that "...they've occupied the buses, not out of malice. They've scared away the Jews..."—in other words, the presence of Palestinians on the buses is driving away Jewish travelers. The source gives reasons that the settlers are reluctant to travel on a bus under the conditions described, but the text added by Nishidani is merely an accurate and neutral description of the key points—separate transportation systems were abolished, and settlers have protested because the presence of Palestinians has made settlers unwilling to travel on the buses. Johnuniq (talk) 07:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    • Re Shrike's comment at 08:24, 15 September 2014: The article is Israel and the apartheid analogy and Nishidani's edit addressed the fact that certain separate transportation systems were abolished (that is, were not apartheid). However, it would be misleading to leave the text at that as if Palestinians and Israelis were happily traveling together—accordingly Nishidani's edit identifed that the arrangements had been protested. How can that be tendentious editing? By contrast, adding commentary to justify the protests would be off-topic and minor POV pushing on the basis that any mention of an Israeli action must be accompanied with text to justify the action. Shrike's claims are very strong (blatant source falsification, tendentious editing) and would require strong evidence whereas I see only assertions. If reviewing admins agree, perhaps Shrike should be counselled against this approach. Johnuniq (talk) 09:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Re diff 5: Perhaps too much is being read into the term: disingenuous: lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere. The context shown in diff 5 is reasonable—an editor stated "I did not see the criticism, only that the photo disappeared without clear reasons" when in fact the editor had received a detailed explanation after asking at Nishidani's talk—that is lacking in frankness. Johnuniq (talk) 09:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by MarciulionisHOF

    Personal attack

    Nishidani caricaturized me a person crying that everything is antisemitic (pro-Palestinian theme - sample, generally derogatory - sample at "zion crime factory"):

    • "you're clearly endeavouring to personalize as antisemitic" ... (excuse for attack) - 08:56, 31 August 2014

    Justified the attack as deserving:

    • "The evidence for what I wrote is in the section heading you created." 15:43, 31 August 2014 (No. There is no evidence there.)
    Cheesehead hat (read: inappropriate) commentary
    • "the unilateral Israelocentric POV drafting"..." inside some Israeli ministry.:)" 21:36, 30 August 2014.
    • There's a bunch of other small ones which he did not respond to when asked for clarification -- e.g. needless use of "mass civilian deaths" in an edit summary, alleging "distaste" was the argument presented (when it wasn't). Ignoring major changes (the formation of a unity government) as "No sensible objections".."presented. Let's move on."
    • "You just about exhausted the hasbara printout sheet"..."taught to recite" 22:52, 11 September 2014
      • Both editors were rambling -- Nishidani embellished with a violation of smearing another editor with blue cheese spread. i.e. Implicating someone as reciting from a propaganda printout sheet.
    Side notes
    • I've asked for guidance. Sandstein suggested I ignore 'pettiness of others'. I also specifically asked about the history of Nishidani but only now learn of an indefinite block and other blue cheese spread pettiness. Fabulous.
    • "Self-revert, wait 24 hours, and revert." Kingsindian -- cannot be considered a good idea (I would hope). I see this type of thinking as 'Goya-worthy' and feel this a good place to get clarification for everyone. Please. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    @HJ Mitchell and Sandstein: - It would benefit the behavior of people involved if you add clarification to the issues I presented. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 06:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC) + MarciulionisHOF (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Gaijin42

    I have been previously active in the 2014 Gaza article, but have not been active for the past several weeks. He regularly disparages WP:RS as being unreliable propaganda (refering to them as Hasbara), and using his own WP:OR to argue why sourced information should not be included. His WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior is one of the reasons I no longer actively edit in this area. In light of his previous topic ban, it seems that there may be a persistent problem here. Due to my absense from the article, these "diffs" are all older (20 days?) so are not good evidence for current activity, but are useful I think in showing the persistent nature of the problem.


    • (3rd comment in threaded discussion) "The Washington Post just picked up the hasbara, and we know from past studies this is propaganda. " and "My point is that this is an IDF meme"
    • Long difficult to quote WP:OR
    • Arguing that the NYT is not reliable (because they hire people from Israel!) while Palestinian bloggers are very reliable (972mag.com) (Entire section, but last comment in the section in particular)

    Gaijin42 (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


    Statement by Pluto2012

    NB: I have to state that Nishidani is a valuable editor that I like to collaborate with because of his deep knowledge both on the I-P topic and the wikipedia principles. On the other side, I prefer avoiding any interaction with Shrike who I don't see as a constructive and interesting contributor.

    I only focused on diff 3. This diff should be counted for and not against Nishidani and the different accusations he is targeted by, such as WP:NPA. Indeed, Nishidani explains very precisely in that diff why his contradictor (Shrike)'s point is not correct. He does it without any attack and is extremely factual. That is perfect exemple of the behaviour to adopt on wikipedia. It is amazing Shrike reports this. (Just for the following of this argumentation: Nishidani reports an WP:undue issue.)

    In this request, Shrike argues that the answer of Nishidani in diff 3 is a form of... wp:soap because he explains a problem of wp:undue on a wp:or board! That's of course not an acceptable argumentation. And other contributors here above mentionned it was not actionnable . I agree with them.

    But in my opinion, this diff and the fact it is reported by Shrike is actionnable against him for a topic ban on this board! Indeed Shrike proves here that he makes :

    • WP:Lawyering and just gathers argument to get arguments;
    • More, the argumentation of Nishidani in diff 3 proves (without performing any accusation there !) that Shrike was performing Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing because he didn't ignore the wp:undue problem reported by Nishidani. Civil POV puhing and Lawyering illustrate the same kind of disruptive behaviour very difficult to put in light but extremely time consuming for all contributors...
    • More, regarding the global lack of consistancy of this request, I think Shrike is just on the bad side of the WP:POINT.
    • I don't intervene often here but I have the feeling to see Shrike on each request (which the Referees/Admins will be able to evaluate better than me).

    For these reasons, I would suggest Shrike is banned to intervene here.

    Pluto2012 (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by WarKosign

    Diff #1: Nishandi added a paragraph that I saw as wrong. I partially amended the section, tagged it as dubious and opened a talk page discussion to address the matter. More editors agreed with me that the paragraph is WP:UNDUE, with Plot Spoiler removing the section. Nishidani called this "editing behaviour, of lockstep naysaying" "close to reportable" and restored the section contrary to the usual procedure.

    Diff #2: In several cases Nishandi made off-hand remarks about other editors competence that I found insulting. Here "this is the English wikipedia, and precise construal of source language is obligatory" implying that I lack it, and even bothering to provide me with a supposedly helpful translation to my native language that I did not ask for. Here "No sensible objections to 'governed' have been presented. Let's move on" - apparently an objection that the user doesn't agree with isn't "sensible".

    Nishandi mentioned on one of the talk pages being away for a few days, so any arbitration should wait a few days to give the user a chance to respond. WarKosign (talk) 06:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

    To be fair, I have not noticed Nishandi edit warring previously. The user does post long and detailed arguments with a clearly stated bias on the talk pages, sometimes winding into WP:SOAP and/or WP:IDHT. -WarKosign (talk) 17:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

    Statement by Plot Spoiler

    The most troubling issue here is the WP:tendentious editing displayed. Dismissing RS on occasion from the likes The Washington Post or The New York Times because in Nishidani's view they are parroting "hasbara" or some "IDF meme", while inserting content from non-RS highly activist blogs like 972mag. That is unacceptable, to go along with the incessant personal attacks and battleground mentality. The editor could benefit from not being an exclusively single-issue editor. It questions their commitment to the overall Misplaced Pages project instead of just pushing a certain point of view. Plot Spoiler (talk) 14:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

    Result concerning Nishidani

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    This request looks to me like a cynical attempt to eliminate an opponent. I see nothing actionable in the diffs, which appear to be a hodge-podge, put together to make the complaint appear more compelling, but what it boils down to is a trivial content dispute in which the complainant and the respondent are on opposing sides.

    • Diff #1 is the aforementioned content dispute. I find no fault with Nishidani's conduct here—this, broader view of the history is much more instructive. Nishidani added 2,204 characters at 14:48, 12 September 2014‎. User:WarKosign commenced a discussion on the talk page about the material at 17:02, 13 September, in which Nishidani participated; at 17:30 User:Plot Spoiler removed it; at 21:48 Nishidani reverted Plot Spoiler; and at 21:57, Shrike revered Nishidani, arguable tag-teaming to game the 1RR. This was the state of the talk page discussion.
    • Diffs 2, 5, and 6 are characterisations of another's edits, not of them personally' (the "P" in NPA). If we're going to start sanctioning people for that sort of thing, we would end up sanctioning just about every editor in the topic area.
    • Diff 3 seems entirely on-point and pertinent to the discussion.
    • Diff 4 is quite obviously a summary of the cited source. Nowhere is there any requirement that sources be quoted verbatim; Misplaced Pages being a tertiary source, summary is an essential part of writing the encyclopaedia.

    I recommend closure with no action against Nishidani, and consideration of sanctions against Shrike for using AE as a battleground. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:09, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

    I tend to agree. These edits do not strike me as disruptive and the complaint is, at best, far-fetched and, at worst, vexatious. I vaguely recall a number of previous similarly questionable and declined enforcement requests by Shrike, although I may confuse them with somebody else. If somebody can confirm that, I'd support a ban from making AE requests.  Sandstein  14:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
    No admin seems to be interested in taking action here. My appreciation, after also reading Nishidani's statement, is that there are probably editors here without whose contributions to this topic area Misplaced Pages may be better off, but I don't see the clear-cut evidence for any serious sanction. Without admin objection, therefore, I'll close this thread in the next 24 hours without action.  Sandstein  13:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

    I agree with HJM and Sandstein that no action against Nishidani is needed. This report by Shrike is far-fetched and unpersuasive. I recommend that Shrike be banned from participating in ARBPIA-related AE discussions for three months, unless his own edits are mentioned. The rationale is due to his using AE as a battleground. There are also long-term issues of tendentious editing by various people which I think Sandstein alludes to. Time does not permit considering every case of non-neutral editing, but whenever we have enough evidence to proceed, we should do so. EdJohnston (talk) 18:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

    Ithinkicahn

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Ithinkicahn

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    EtienneDolet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Ithinkicahn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:AA2
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    • The user engages in a relentless effort to remove any mention of the Armenian Genocide in Misplaced Pages. It's a classic case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The user's edit-summaries are almost always misleading. They're often times entirely irrelevant to what the user's edit actually entails (i.e. 14 August , March 12, and 31 July edits). Hence, it's impossible to detect where and when the user has deleted references of the Armenian Genocide. Consequently, all edits must be examined. These are the only ones I happened to come across:
    1. 15 September
    2. 26 August
    3. 20 August
    4. 18 August
    5. 16 August
    6. 15 August
    7. 14 August
    8. 31 July
    9. 29 July
    10. 15 July
    11. 24 May
    12. 21 May
    13. 12 March
    14. 2 March
    15. 2 March
    16. 22 February
    • The user also assumes an overt WP:BADFAITH towards his "opponents". He has openly exclaimed, even after I told him to stop with the badfaith assumptions, that "I have reason to assume bad faith on your part because of my experience with you in the past" (29 July). In an article where I have made only six constructive and harmless edits (), the user kept hurling accusations at me by calling me a POV pusher and accused me of historical revisionism (here and here). The user continued doing this even after I kindly told him to stop. Apparently, he was not interested in adhering to basic Misplaced Pages policy either (). Even with third-party users stating that the article was NPOV and reliably sourced (), Ithinkicahn continued unilaterally placing the POV tag and had edit-warred to get his way ().
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 23 February 2014
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I've tried to work with the user on countless occasions. In the past, I've granted him a barnstar and was always supportive of his edits in Turkey related articles. However, once the user started editing in Armenian related topics, it turned into an entirely different story. His deletion of massive amounts of information (often times sourced) concerning the Armenian Genocide is highly problematic. Most of his edits regarding the Armenian Genocide are driven by his own personal opinions and fall contrary to the general consensus Misplaced Pages has instilled regarding the subject. Consequently, the deceptive edit-summaries make it necessary to tend and examine each edit. Furthermore, an uncompromising attitude towards those that don't fall into the user's POV makes it almost impossible to work with him. Hence, for the reasons I have mentioned, I suggest that the user be banned from all topics related to Armenia and Turkey.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Ithinkicahn

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Ithinkicahn

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Ithinkicahn

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.