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Why does the article only mention one guy Quinn allegedly had a relationship with

I'm sure the claim was there were five of them, maybe I missed it, but I think in that case it should be made more clear.Halfhat (talk) 15:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Mentioning any of the other allegations would be a BLP violation - it is only the one with Grayson that has recieved attention as being proven false, that means that we have to include it to complete the others. Any of the other ex's allegations are unnecessary in the scope of GG and fail BLP as our RS's do not address these others. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Here are some sources: .--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:39, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Not enough, really. They mention the allegations alongside the main one but do no attempt to discredit or the like. As such, that's gossip that flat out fails BLP. (The only thing that might be necessary, and I am very much against including it unless it needs to be, is the mention of the certain chain in association with the allegations as shorthand for the situation, but that's not really used alot around. --MASEM (t) 17:55, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Wilipedia is not in charge of policing peoples sexual activity on behalf of creeps. Artw (talk) 16:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

More evidence that GamerGate isn't about Zoe Quinn except for all the GamerGate people who want us to republish all the details of Zoe Quinn's personal life. Thank you for helping demonstrate why reliable sources treat GamerGate as a fount of misogynistic harassment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:24, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

From my perspective, the issue here is that we are misleading readers by characterizing it as though she simply was with another guy, with some editors even wanting to downplay the cheating aspect, and her boyfriend went on a tirade against her sparking off a wave of misogynistic harassment. According to Gjoni, the problem is that she cheated on him with multiple men. There is actually even more to it than that, but the reliable sources only talk about the cheating on him with multiple men part. You can guffaw about how this proves it is all totally about Quinn, but it is really about the narrative. It is well-recognized that Gjoni's post was a big part of what sparked this off and it is also well-recognized that many media are using their characterization of that post and Gjoni to perpetuate a certain narrative regarding GamerGate. Not suggesting we go on about all the dirty details, but I think simply noting the allegations concerned cheating and concerned more than one incidence of cheating is an important bit of context. It does give you a little insight into why Gjoni might have been a tad upset. Again there is more to it than just cheating, but that is what we have from reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

We need to move off that fact, because it wasn't Gjoni's initial accusation, but the ones that extrapolated that to professional impropriety and that is the only accusation that is significant to GG. We are not here to even question Quinn's personal life choices at all, and it would be BLP to go into that further than the fact that the ex felt jaded enough to announce her relationship with Grayson. --MASEM (t) 20:13, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so if nothing Gjoni said was relevant then I say we remove all of Marcotte's insinuations about him, the New York Times characterization of his blog post, and any other references to Quinn's "personal life" and focus only on what people inferred from his blog post with nary a mention of what he actually said. Editors cannot have it both ways and still be in accord with NPOV. We can't avoid mentioning the allegation of Quinn cheating on Gjoni with multiple guys on the basis of it being irrelevant despite getting mentioned in numerous reliable sources and simultaneously weaponize his blog post against GamerGate without being at odds with policy.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:30, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I would agree with this - this should not be about anything about their past relation (outside they used to have one). To be clear, this is not for removal of the stuff about Depression Quest and the harassment she got for that beforehand (that establishes that she was a "target" before the accusation), but any other personal life stuff about Quinn that is extraneous from the issues of GG and her subsequent harassment should be removed. --MASEM (t) 20:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

TDA: Can I ask what parts of "Quinn's personal life" you are seeing in the article that shoudl be removed? I'm not sure what you mean (or if you are just saying we shouldn't care to have them even) --MASEM (t) 20:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

So basically, the material in question would be the following:

Amanda Marcotte in an article for The Daily Beast described the controversy as arising from the comments of a "vindictive ex-boyfriend", stated it was "pure misogyny to use online harassment troops" against Quinn . . .

. . . noting that its origin was attacks on Zoe Quinn concerning her personal life.

This post, which The New York Times described as a "strange, rambling attack," . . .

In fact, if Gjoni is so irrelevant to this subject that we cannot mention the allegation of Quinn cheating on him, let alone with multiple guys, then the only mention of him should be when mentioning him putting up the blog post, rather than referring to the controversy in terms of "Gjoni's accusations" or "Gjoni's blog entry" at other points in the article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

So again you are stating that this whole gamergate thing is because allegations of Quinn's sex life being more interesting than all of the basement dwelling gamergaters could possible hope to ever experience? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:02, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

That is just being childish. Come on man calm down. You're just being prejudiced. We're not here to argue about the merits, or lack there of, of GamerGate. We're here to make a good article covering the drama. Halfhat (talk) 00:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

When the gamergaters start showing actual adult interest in actual conflict of interest and not on childish prurient "drahmaz" over wild and meaningless allegations of other peoples sex lives as rationale for harassment and stop flooding this talk page with fixation of the same, then there may be reason to treat the comments here as anything other than childish lashing out by sexually repressed basement dwellers. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Like most origin stories, it is important and it is only natural that it be discussed. As I told Masem, if we are not going to note what many reliable sources note about Gjoni's accusations, then we cannot be using other people's characterizations of him or the blog post and still remain in accord with NPOV.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

That is hardly what I am saying and it is definitely not my position. We cannot be right with NPOV if we are saying the blog post can be used against GamerGate without us being clear about what the post concerned. If the position here is that we have to ignore numerous reliable sources noting the allegations concerned cheating because his allegations are irrelevant, then what people think of Gjoni and the blog post is also irrelevant since their thoughts are premised on his allegations. My default position would be to keep the stuff about Gjoni and the blog post being evidence of "vindictive" behavior and misogyny, but note the blog post concerned Quinn allegedly cheating on Gjoni with multiple men. Both details are backed by numerous reliable sources, but if we are saying the latter detail cannot be included, then the former detail is no better for inclusion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, we don't have a lot of RS on what else was accused in that post so that's why per BLP reducing the "important" of the blog post should be done so that it is simply "he accused her, others jumped on that". --MASEM (t) 00:21, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but mentioning other people is not a violation of anyone's personal lives as these people worked either with press and gaming community as well. --Artman40 (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

It is a BLP violation to make a claim about the relationships, however, even if the names are recognized people. --MASEM (t) 22:44, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Just because someone works in the "press and gaming community" does not make their personal lives a subject of Misplaced Pages interest, and it doesn't change our reliable sourcing requirements. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

At least the article should mention that the press does not comment on those other people. It would be hypocritical to only include Grayson. It would be like saying that the person is innocent when committing 4 crimes, being charged with 5 and finding 1 of the crimes baseless. --Artman40 (talk) 09:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

No. There is zero public interest in any allegations made in an ex-boyfriend's "strange, rambling attack." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There IS public interest. By the way, Kotaku, Destructoid and other sites are accused on harming journalistic integrity and therefore count as primary sources. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/09/09/GamerGate-Why-Gaming-Journalists-Keep-Dragging-Zoe-Quinns-Sex-Life-into-the-Spotlight --Artman40 (talk) 11:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Breitbart is not an acceptable reliable source, and your claim that sites "accused on harming journalistic integrity" (huh?) become primary sources is utterly nonsensical. No, they don't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Excactly why aren't Breitbart, Nichegamer and Techraptor reliable sources and why is Cracked a preferred source to Forbes? --Artman40 (talk) 12:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Cracked is not used on this article. It may be used at Zoe Quinn because it's a piece she wrote about herself, but nothing else from Cracked is being used anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Breitbart has an established history of blatantly lying, taking things out of context, and other instances of a complete lack of journalistic integrity to even be close to be considered a reliable source. The only reason the gaters have latched onto it is because Milo Yiannopoulos and Gamergate supporters have a lot in common. I don't know what Nichegamer or Techraptor have said on these matters, but the issue at hand here is that in the context of what Gamergate wants itself to be about, there is only one personal relationship out of all of Eric Gjoni's allegations that the latched onto and wanted to expose and that was the relationship with Grayson rather than anyone else Gjoni rambled on about.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:16, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

With that logic, we can say that Kotaku, Polygon, RockPaperShotgun and other alleged sites want the context of Gamergate to be about misogyny despite GamerGate not being about misogyny. --Artman40 (talk) 16:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

That is not what people are saying here or on this article. Again, people acknowledge across the board that Gamergate wants to be about journalistic integrity, but they note that there is a misogynistic streak in the actions perpetrated under the name of Gamergate. This has been picked up outside of the gaming websites, where as the pro-gamergate rhetoric only comes from these fringe and completely unreliable sources.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

requesting 5 sources for ingrainedness of MISOGYNY

@Masem: regarding your removal of a reference where you said:

There are at minimum 5 sources for this. This was established on talk page before, discuss there and do not change again

I would like to see these 5 references, or be provided a link to where they were provided previously.

Keeping in mind that this is about misogyny, not sexism. This dispute is about calling misogyny ingrained, not calling sexism ingrained. Sexism is a broad issue I am not objecting to, as I see it ingrained in pretty much anything.

As misogyny is hatred of women, I would like to see these 5 sources you claim support the allegation that hatred of women is ingrained within gaming culture.

I believe that if multiple sources DO support that, that we should list them all as references on the page. Listing shadow references doesn't make any sense.

We currently only list one reference, a 2011 article from VentureBeat, and I supplied a 2012 article from VentureBeat which contradicts the casual claim of it being ingrained, which explicitly states in the title that gaming culture is NOT misogynistic.

Unless there is a basis for thinking McLaughlin a more reliable reporter than Yang, I think you ought to explain why we leave Rus's article up as a reference while you have deleted Joe's article as a reference, when they come from the same news site.

I am open to considering your sources, but if you won't link to them in the article, you should present them here on request. Previous replies I have seen have moved the goalposts of the issue and not addressed misogyny directly in references. Ranze (talk) 23:48, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You're arguing a different point. The current situation is about the sexism and misogyny in the culture, whether from the harassment or just as it has been for sometime. Those are the five references at the end of the first paragraph. Your edit was saying because one author said otherwise, we can't say it's about misogyny but that's clearly not the case. Now on the other end of the argument, a very different one, is the claim that these have been issues for some time, and we've had this discussion before in the archives that point to several points in VG's industry past that discuss both terms (), but for the purposes of establishing that it's been around, we need that one source for the word "ingrained". Your source is only one voice, and also is a clear blog piece and not a reviewed work and such is unallowable as a source. --MASEM (t) 23:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

To be more exact - in the lead, the broad summary of sources clearly shows that sexism and misogyny are long-standing issues in the industry and to go into any more detail in the lead is bogging that down. In the body, we can (if necessary) present Yang's opinion as a counter statement, though again, I caution that as a clear opinion piece and not necessarily one with journalistic standards, we may not be able to use it. But if it usable, its in the body of the article. --MASEM (t) 00:02, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The broad summary of sources? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it since that seems more like a personal opinion. You have to cite the sources and proof that there actually is misogyny -- if it is just a reporter or a cluster of reporters claiming such a thing then it isn't worth anything. Only if the reporters themselves provide actual proof to their claims can they be taken as anything but just an opinion panel. Like mentioned before, sexism and misogyny are two different things and I'd argue that sexism itself hasn't been proven either. For instance if a woman isn't hired because the men there don't want to work with women, guess what? That is NOT sexism, that is just exclusion. Likewise, misogyny is hatred of women, if you want to say somebody practice misogyny then you would have to actually prove that they hate women. But that is the problem with how media allows feminism and people to get away with this kind of crap. Since calling somebody a misogynist could land them sued for slander and libel, people instead call institutions and groups "misogynist". I.E they are claiming that the core reason of a group hates women. In other words they are claiming that the game industry hates women as a sex. ORLY? and their proof? Well, that is why we are asking you to actually post proof. If you don't you are just turning wikipedia into a propaganda page for feminism.--Thronedrei (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

There are several sources in my link above, including two GDC talks from developers, citing misogyny from the industry/content creation side - maybe not intentional but prevailing through video games through the decades. (And no, the definition of misogyny is not "hatred" but "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women", the latter the focus of most every discussion on the issue) --MASEM (t) 17:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Above where? Please post links again in reply to my reply here. Also, no you are incorrect; misogyny MEANS hatred for women: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/misogyny You probably believe it is dislike because of this source yes?: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny But even the Oxford dictionary mentions that it is derived from the word hatred. So just because Oxford is trying to redefine the word for some odd reason, does not mean that it is correct. Reality is still reality, not what we pretend it is. --Thronedrei (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Repeating from a few comments above: I have listed several articles. And while dictionaries use only the "hatred" def, at least, online, the fact that there's other variations of that means that we cannot assume that people are using "misogyny" to mean that the industry "hates" women, but certainly the other definitions apply. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

No, I asked you to list and link to the sources again, not link to a page where you had "somewhere" had linked to a source. I'm not 100% sure exactly what articles you claim as proof see? That said reading the replies there I notice it as as full of fluff and no real proof. The only thing you can cite is that these sites CLAIM that there was misogyny -- but these sites are second hand sources and should be treated as such. At the very least if you want to still keep the lie that there is misogyny (even though it can be misconstrued as if there actually is) -- you need to make sure that it is absolutely made clear that there is no proof in the articles themselves but that they are just wild claims spouted by the blog sources. For instance many of these stupid blogs use the whole trolling as "evidence" that there is sexism, they claim that rape threats are sexist... but that just shows how utterly bafflingly stupid they are. Threats of rape is not sexist, only a sexist feminist would claim this since rape can happen to both genders. If a man or a woman threatens a woman with rape, then this is a threat, not a sexist comment. Again, this just shows how stupid people are. Which brings me back to the whole "Misogyny" discussion. No and absolutely no -- you can't use the word misogyny to describe people that are distrustful of women since it is used as an umbrella word. You have other words you can use instead such as "prejudice against women" or "mistrust" if that is what you are going for. That said, these blogs are beyond stupid. Where is the prejudice? It is all based on facts. Look at Sarkeesian and Quinn, they did exactly what people knew they would do, they started creating crap and ruining things. A woman's brain is different than that of a mans, it is not prejudice to expect what is biology. --Thronedrei (talk) 18:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

"We're not sexist! Women create crap and ruin things!" OK then. <facepalm> NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Reality is sexist now? Go on? Tell me how referring to what actually happens is sexist. Sexism is a prejudice; stereotyping and discriminating based on gender right? But it isn't prejudice if the stereotype is actually true. Sexism only exists if the stereotype is false. But that is a problem many feminists and SJW's have, they believe that stereotypes don't exist.--Thronedrei (talk) 13:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

How fucking hilarious is the paranoid capacity for unthink. Now even Oxford has joined the conspiracy against the poor whinging gamergaters and sexual fixations and harassment! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Please read again. As Ranze (below this post) pointed out, I wasn't saying that Oxford did it because of Gamergate; I was making the claim that post modernism was at fault.--Thronedrei (talk) 13:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe @Thronedrei: speculated as to why Oxford was changing the meaning of the word. He did not mention this event being related to gaming, so I believe you are constructing a straw man to misrepresent Thronedrei's commentary and should stop doing that. Ranze (talk) 11:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Harassment occurring does not make harassment ingrained. This is tantamount to saying fiance-punching is ingrained in football just because it has happened with Ray Rice. I already dismantled the 5 references at the end of the first paragraph in our previous discussions, not a single one far as I recall used terms like 'ingrained' in associating misogyny with gamer culture. The burden is on you to explain here how those references support the use of such a strong word which composes a strong condemnative statement about gamer-culture. You only have 1 author saying it is ingrained, and there is at least 1 author saying the culture isn't misogynistic (more strongly, and more recently) the other sources do not make claimed about the culture overall or it's ingrained attributes. The discussions we had before had bad rebuttals I never got a chance to reply to because they got archived so quickly, you never defended those 5 references as conveying this message, nobody did. The OR section criticism stands: saying misogyny is ingrained in game culture is still original research, because you're quote-mining a single article on a news site while removing contradicting articles from the same news site. There is no uniform viewpoint, so Misplaced Pages should not speak as if there is.

I call on you to directly show us where these sources call misogyny ingrained. If you want to change it to long-standing, feel free to edit the text and argue on that end. It seems to me that when called to task for 1 term, it's flipped to another in a cup game. You call Yang's article an 'opinion piece', what qualifies you to say that Yang's is opinion while McLaughlin's is journalistic, exactly? Ranze (talk) 00:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You're mixing apples and oranges. The five references at the end are not supporting the claim of "ingrained" but instead that GG is about sexism and misogyny in the culture. There is one used source to identify that these aren't new topics but I've pointed to where you can find several more sources that assert this. And again, the culture is not just gamers, it is gamers and devs and publishers - everyone being "guilty" here, not just an isolated group. And again, your source is not usable as a counterpoint to the many sources we have as it is just an opinion piece. --MASEM (t) 00:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a settled issue. Further rehashing of a settled issue is disruptive. Tarc (talk) 00:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Hardly a settled issue. Saying it is "ingrained . . . in the gaming community" is a generalization about the gaming community being deeply sexist and misogynistic in nature, which is a very serious allegation (just so everyone remembers the severity of the term, "misogyny" literally means "hatred of women"). Nothing I have read even remotely convinces me that this is an accurate description or sufficiently backed by reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The key is that we're talking the culture which is fully inclusion of gamers and developers and publishers, so it's a broad allegation that applies across the board. If it was specifically only for gamers that the phrasing was intended, I would definitely be asking for more, but by pointing to the culture, we are addressing "everyone". --MASEM (t) 00:32, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

So, are you saying that developers hate women? or that game-companies do? Or that most "gamers" do? See the problem here? You are using a blanket claim which you don't actually go into specifics with. Since the blanket statement includes any and all there is no need for the person making the claim to actually provide any proof or so it seems. So exactly what are you saying? Are you saying that the "culture" of gaming is created or based on hatred of women? Or... what exactly ARE you saying?--Thronedrei (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

No, you're using too strong/narrow a definition of misogyny. "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women" is what is referred to here, with the last part being the more applicable focus. And this is mostly from the dev/publishing side that can be sourced as a long term problem, and very difficult to paint gamers as such until only these recent harassment attacks. "Culture" is the proper term, though again, I would rather say "industry" since that's where the problem is clearly originated from. --MASEM (t) 17:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Umm no. Misogyny might be an umbrella word that is both used for mistrust for women as well as hatred but that is the problem isn't it? If somebody mistrusts the intentions of women as a group based on their gender then they are mistrustful right? That does NOT mean that they hate women. However since the word misogyny (as you very well know) also means hatred for women, such a word can't be allowed when it does not actually describe what it is intended to describe. So if there is contempt or whatever for women -- then write THAT instead. Don't throw around the word misogyny as if it didn't actually mean hatred for women, because it does.--Thronedrei (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Because it is not just one single "aspect" of the definition of misogyny that's an issue here. The largest component is the prejudice side but there has definitely been cases in the past of people in the position of power in game devs/pubs that have shown outright dislike and hatred towards woman. Similarly, I've read many proGG threads, and I would certainly characters most of that as prejudice but there are also clear signs of dislike and outright hatred. The umbrella term is the most accurate term to use. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

First of all, since you are not a valid source yourself masem, saying "I have read" is not a valid argument, at least not one that can be applied to writing a wiki article. Secondly, please provide proof that people in the position of power in the gamer industry has done anything unfavorable (as far as the gaming community go) because that they hate women. See, even if it was true -- you can't use it unless you can actually prove it. It would be slander and libel. That said, when you are writing an article that is trying to cast a group in an unfavorable light you need to be extra careful that the article actually represents the group and not just a few individuals within it. Only if the group as a whole "hate women" can you make the claim that it hates women. For instance Valerie Solanas shot Andy Warhol, she was a feminist... so among the many feminists at least one was trying to murder somebody. Does that mean that we should brand feminists as a bunch of potential murderers? See how that works? YOu need to be consistent masem.--Thronedrei (talk) 14:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, look at past sources I have linked for the history of problems with how females are treated in the industry. Second, we are not treating the definition of misogyny as "solely" the hatred of women. That's not how the sources are using the word either (at least, the ones that are less biased) - they use the word because it is accurate - it doesn't take much to see that those involved in the harassment have primarily targetted women - but calling those attacks "misogyny" is a less harsh than calling out those attacks as "hatred of women", and so is a much more balanced word. This is also true of the word in the past for game development - unequal numbers, pay differences, contempt for women, etc. It's exactly the right word to describe the problems in the past, and the problems currently. (But I also will note, when you start looking at areas beyond video games where there are similar problems, the word "misogyny" is the flavor of the day, to speak, and used whenver it can be injected. However, we have documented evidenced that misogyny in the past was actually called that. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It is sourced, that's all there is to it. The present wording was somewhat of a compromise from the previous version as well, but now, suddenly, it isn't good enough? Do you think you're fooling anyone here? The slanted pro-GG editors scream and demand a change, and their editing suggestions are met halfway. Then a few weeks later, they come back again because THAT previously agreed=-upon wording is now no longer any good. So you're going to approach this "death by 1,000 cuts" style until it is in exact tune with the minority pro-GG point-of-view. Not gonna happen. Tarc (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

"ingrained issues of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community". Ingrained isn't needed at all. Ingrained means a habit, belief, or attitude firmly fixed or established. Calling the gaming community sexists and misogynists in the first sentence is clearly controversial. Diyoev (talk) 07:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I had less a problem with "long-standing" than "ingrained" as the former only suggests there have been issues of sexism and misogyny in the community for a long time, which does not cast that issue on the whole community. To say it is "ingrained" is to effectively stain the entire community as sexist and misogynist.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:47, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

At one point I had used the word "video game industry" as to reflect that the producers of the content were aware they were creating this problem, also taking some of the blame off the gamer side (as other wording can do potentially). --MASEM (t) 01:01, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

@Masem: I think you ought to choose a single role regarding this article. You should either be a moderator (as we see you using your administrative powers in the below section) or advocate your interpretation of this conflict. You acting as an administrator here is a conflict of interest when your are simultaneously engaging in POV-pushing.

Masem if the 5 references are about GamerGate and not gaming culture, why exactly did you bring them up here? If these references did not support your declaration (you have made it yours by restoring it) about gamer culture then it was misleading for you to refer to them during your reversion.

You continually claim 'many sources' but have not listed them here or on the page. As you admit, the five you referred to are related to whether or not misogyny is a factor in the gamerGate controversy, not in gaming culture as a whole, leaving you bereft of references.

@Tarc: settled this issue isn't, as TDA points out, and your effort to squelch conversation through intimidation by throwing accusations like 'disruptive' around is itself disruptive to discussion, where we aim to properly vet all sources to see whether they adequately and fairly support statements Wikipedians have made here.

Getting back to Masem's further claims here, although I agree 'community' is broad and can apply to developers/gamers, widening the net does not strengthen any arguments for labeling misogyny as 'ingrained'. Developers have created several characters with moustaches, and the gaming community includes gamers who are fans of moustaches, and may even grow them. The mere presence of a factor does not qualify is to say 'moustaches are ingrained in gaming'. Isolated presence is not overwhelming presence, and if you want to upgrade the former to the latter, you must properly reference it, which has not been done.

Getting back to Tarc's further claim, it hasn't been properly sourced, because it is only displaying a single source showing a single isolated view. No valid reasoning has been introduced as to why this sole viewpoint is being portrayed as truth, when I have provided a source of EQUAL WEIGHT which has a contradicting viewpoint.

Tarc I am finding difficulty assuming your good faith when you paint this particular issue as pro-GG in nature. This actually isn't about GamerGate at all. This is about a broad statement made in this article applying to a much wider topic, that of gaming in it's entirety. Thinking that misogyny might not be ingrained in gaming, thinking you're only showing the elephant's trunk, does not relate in any way to holding any particular stance about GamerGate in particular. The participants in this controversy do not reflect gaming culture or community as a whole.

TDA I agree, while I have problems with both ('long' being too strong, IMO) ingrained is way more suggestive, any neither are properly referenced. We ought to dial this back to just 'sexism' until desciptors about misogyny are referenced in a balanced way, they never have been. Ranze (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

It is completely okay to do non-controversial corrections as an involved person. I can't add new stuff while its protected but fixing a wikilink is not an issue for example. As for references I have provided a link to a prior discussion that gives at least 6 that talk about sexism and misogyny in the past of the VG industry, and this was part of the previous discussion that Tarc has pointed out that we've gone over and over again and a consensus was reached on the wording. You need to go back and re-read those discussions first. --MASEM (t) 01:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Fixing a typo would be a non-controversial correction. What you did was not a correction, it was nothing like 'fixing a wikilink' and it IS a controversial edit. The page is locked with YOUR (and Rus McLaughlin's) viewpoint, even though you haven't sourced it in a balanced way. Adding things is not the only way to generate controversy. You removed a reference, removing a reference is not controversial.

What you have done is enforced a biased view of the discussion of misogyny's role in gaming community/culture. Previously I removed the claim of long-standing (now allegedly inherent/ingrained) misogyny and you added it in again, rather than supply supporting references on the article (nor even on the talk, your claims about doing so are false) you just injected your PoV as summary.

The prior discussion's 6 links have discussed RECENT events in VG industry. You are portraying those reports inaccurately by injecting your PoV that they constitute a new 'ingrained' issue by putting forth that sole viewpoint and squelching the contrary viewpoint that gaming culture is not overall misogynist and that these are merely accessory events by portions of it (much like criminal violence and football players).

Tarc has not 'pointed out' anything real, he's clearly, like you, trying to restrict conversation here by calling us GGers and disruptors, even though this is not making claims about GG and in reality, generalizations about gaming culture are themselves disrupting and distracting from an article that is supposed to be about GamerGate and not about injecting isolated unbacked criticisms of gaming community/culture as a whole.

If misogyny is an ingrained issue, why is it not even mentioned on articles about gaming community here? The reason that jumps out at me is that pages like that lack dedicated PoV-pushers continually re-inserting unbacked claims as this one has.

I am not making any support of GamerGate here, and the only thing I am disrupting is evidence that Misplaced Pages is hosting a biased improperly sourced assertion (a claim that misogyny is ingrained in gaming community) because only a single-sided (single-referenced) viewpoint is being conveyed here.

If this is to be balanced and you want to rely on VentureBeat as a reliable source of references, then you are obligated to mention Joe Yang's headline alongside Rus McLaughlin's footnote. You are conveying undue importance to Rus' article because it suits your viewpoints even though there is no reason provided to give his article priority over Joe's.

You are wrong when you claim consensus was achieved over what wording is ideal. Consensus was not achieved, the argument merely got buried. Past consensi also do not remove the requirement of adequate referencing. If 10 page editors reach a consensus that 'Obama is a martian' it doesn't mean someone can't come along later and demand proper referencing for it. The need for proper sourcing outweighs tyranny of majority (or more accurately, tyranny of the daily-editors over the weekly).

I have reread all those discussions, I was part of them and saw how they concluded, and nothing of required substance was added prior to their archival. If you think anything was, summarize and reiterate how MULTIPLE sources allege this to be ingrained, because the two VentureBeats cancel each other out. Find a 2nd supporting the viewpoint you keep adding in and I'll then shoulder a burden of searching out further contradictors to provide a balance viewpoint. Ranze (talk) 01:59, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The rest of us have come to consensus, so asking us to rehash a point you disagree with is disruptive. (Also, the edit of removing your change was done before the article was locked, and because it introduced an unreliable source into an article that needs higher scrutiny of sources, so that was not done as an admin action). --MASEM (t) 02:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

And again to point out: the Yang VB article is not a reliable source for the claims as it is specifically labelled as an unreviewed opinion piece, while the other VB article is not and presented as a editor-reviewed work. Huge different there. --MASEM (t) 02:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You are painting a false picture of those discussions, I was not the only detractor to your arguments then, nor am I now, nor would opposition being singular matter, consensus is not a vote, it is more than majority, and I am not convinced you have even that. I am not understanding your argument for one VB article being reliable and the other being unreliable. Let's compare:

1. Rus McLaughlin (February 15, 2011). "Sexism and misogyny are gaming's status quo". VentureBeat. Retrieved September 28, 2014.
2. Joe Yang (11 December 2012). "Why gaming culture is not misogynistic". VentureBeat. Retrieved 10 October 2014.

You claim 1 from 2011 is "editor-reviewed work" while 2 from 2012 is "unreviewed opinion piece". These articles are not merely on the same website, they are both part of the same ongoing series called "GamesBeat". Let's look at the actual phrases:

1. This post has been edited by the GamesBeat staff. Opinions by GamesBeat community writers do not necessarily reflect those of the staff.
2. This post has not been edited by the GamesBeat staff. Opinions by GamesBeat community writers do not necessarily reflect those of the staff.

Now keep in mind that BOTH of the GamesBeat articles on VentureBeat contain this disclaimer:

• These are unvetted stories from the GamesBeat community. The staff picks the best ones and edits them for the front page.

So while the 2011 was 'edited', it is still 'unvetted' and does not reflect staff opinions. All this could mean is that staff had to fix a typo in the 2011 article but didn't have to make any corrections to the 2012 one. That an edit was made does not in any way give the 2011 article more reliability than the 2012 one. 'Staff pick the best ones' means that BOTH were reviewed by staff.

I request you admit that your summary here was wrong, and that you are misleading talk page readers about these sources. BOTH pieces are presented as editor-reviewed works AND 'opinions by community writers' (this phrase is the single time 'opinion' appears on either article). They are of EQUAL status and you are misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting the relevance of an edit being made to one. Ranze (talk) 02:19, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Even considering that, Yang's article does not counter the statement we make. Key quote "gaming culture is not inherently misogynistic. Its institutions, its structures, hierarchy, its payscales, and its distribution of power may be misogynistic, yes, but gamers themselves are not misogynistic. Their beliefs and rituals are not inherently misogynigistic." We are not saying that the gaming culture, by its nature, misogynist, only that there does exist misogyny within it for some time, and the Yang article agrees on this point. --MASEM (t) 02:58, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

That is , as long as other editors agreed that the first piece to source "ingrained" is fine, then this source can be used as a backup to that claim as well; if not, we've demonstrated in the past archives how the term still applies since it goes back pre-2000 (it is also fairly obvious to any subject matter expert in the field). --MASEM (t) 03:01, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

@Masem: Who is the 'we' making the statement? That's whoever added it, and I suppose whoever adds it back when it is removed or changed. You are wrong, Yang's article definitely DOES counter the statement. The source for 'ingrained' is McLaughlin saying misogyny is ingrained 'in video game DNA'. If we take 'game DNA' to mean 'culture' then Yang saying misogyny is not inherent in gaming culture definitely contradicts the interpretation that McLaughlin took.

I think the issue of disagreement here is the amount of weight we see in the adjective 'ingrained'. You summarize this as meaning 'exists within' but its usage has a stronger impact than that. Some definitions use the word 'fixed' for example, with 'ingrain' meaning 'deeply connected'.

For example look at some definitions from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ingrained

• complete/utter
• deep-rooted
• deeply impressed or instilled
• firmly-fixed
• inveterate (meaning hardened/constant/habitual or set/fixed/rooted)
• usage: "you don't change corruption that deep and that ingrained in a culture from the outside."

Ingrained means inherent, basically. A clear thing here may be that Yang is distinguishing between gaming culture and gaming INDUSTRY. Since the core phrase you rely on is a metaphor (game DNA) I think you should also be wary of interpreting that to mean a comment on CULTURE when it could simply be a comment on PRODUCT.

This source is a contradiction, not a back-up. I do not remember you competently arguing that the term goes back pre-2000 as a comment on culture. Whenever you wish to make request to previous discussions I request you link to the archive. In this case I would also like it if you could directly link to your pre-2000 source and also quote an excerpt and interpret it. I responded to older articles you brought up before and found them completely off-topic red herrings. Ranze (talk) 11:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No, "Ingrained" is not a synonym for "inherent" (which I completely agree on your issue if they were). Inherent means the issue is unavoidable, it comes with the field; ingrained means it can be fixed. Yang's article does not counter this: the sexism/misogyny can be fixed but it is still a deep problem in the field. --MASEM (t) 13:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Brianna Wu

, was following this last night, this appears to be first story about it (and do not: gamasutra has put a statement that they are involved due to the Intel piece - that's okay to use them). However, as she is not notable (for a standalone page), I 'm not sure if we need to include yet as another example. --MASEM (t) 20:21, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Venturebeat too so we can avoid the dependent source. --MASEM (t) 20:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Re/Code has it now as well: NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:38, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Kotaku:

Worthwhile quote there: "I was literally watching 8chan go after me in their specific chatroom for Gamergate," she told Kotaku today. "They posted my address, and within moments I got that death threat." Artw (talk) 22:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Not notable, already countless mentions of harassment, it was a throwaway twitter account. Maybe a one sentence mention with other figures harassed. But this will fall into yet again another "according to Kotaku writer A GamerGate is misogynyst, according to Gamasutra writer B GamerGate is misogynyst" Loganmac (talk) 22:26, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Your claim that it's not notable is interesting, yet reliable sources state otherwise. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. We only need a sentencet to mention here, up where we talk Phil Fish. I know there's been talk of how many have been harassed/death threated/doxxed (and claims on both sides) but the only major ones that have been reported are Quinn, Sarkeenstain, Fish, and now Wu. --MASEM (t) 22:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Milo has also been mentioned here and there, including in the Kokatu article linked above. And the Slate twitter piece mentioned other online harassment, although not as serious as what has been covered. It may be worth thinking about an "Online harassment" in the "Backlash and social media campaign" section, although we're probably getting to a point where a discussion about an overall reorganisation is perhaps merited. - Bilby (talk) 00:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Milo was also mentioned in the latest RealClearPolitics and Slate pieces. Willhesucceed (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Also in The Verge. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:52, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

And Destructoid. I'll start working up a proposal section shortly. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually this might be best: Polygon, which includes confirmation that the police are investigating. Again, we only need like a sentence for this, given that she is not that significant yet to the overall issue, but it is a noted example of a problem. --MASEM (t) 00:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

A sentence, a paragraph or whatever we see fit. Artw (talk) 01:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

For now only a sentence or two are warranted. That is the way it is with Phil Fish.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps now her previous article on misogyny and sexism in gaming can also be included in the article as it was before?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

We can add she was harassed from that before, so not an unknown in this, but the rest of the details would bog this down. Again, a sentence or two is literally all that is needed if we decide to add this. --MASEM (t) 14:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Article predates the controversy so it should not be included. I think reliable sources about this incident already mention her previous writings and experiences.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Now in The Boston Globe. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

We will be definitely including that source, over any of the ones above. --MASEM (t) 14:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Daily Mail (UK) for some more national newspaper coverage. This event seems to be getting quite a lot of coverage outside the gaming/tech press. 78.105.4.241 (talk) 10:40, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Brianna Wu appeared on MSNBC's The Reid Report this afternoon to discuss the death threats and GamerGate. Viewable here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Definitely would at minimum want to point out that over 1.2 million tweets have been made about GG , as to demonstrate the size/scope of the matter (currently the article gives no idea of the size/scope of the matter). I'm sure there's a few other points in that. --MASEM (t) 20:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Brad Wardell interview

I don't know if this is notable, reliable, or not, but I believe this is the first time a game developer has really weighed in: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12397-Brad-Wardell-GamerGate-Interview

I leave this here for others to use, or not use, at their discretion. 2601:B:3100:5E9:6439:B30B:3F8C:B85E (talk) 01:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I self-correct. A number of articles from various industry professionals, spanning a variety of different views, were posted simultaneously: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews This was merely the first one I encountered. 2601:B:3100:5E9:6439:B30B:3F8C:B85E (talk) 01:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Technically there is also a similar set from female game devs, though the Escapist has come under some flak on this in both presentation and the fact the female devs all replied anonymously. (in addition to one of the male devs having a reputation in the present situation). I'd rather cut down on the singular opinions here only due to how that is creating the bias here. --MASEM (t) 03:04, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Ingrained misogynist and sexism in gaming community

So hating women and sexism is what makes a gamer community? According to whom and on what factual data? Accusing millions of people of being sexist and misogynist just because they wear the tag "gamer" is a serious accusation. Is it a requirement to be a misogynist or are you a sexist if you are a gamer? Is it some small minority with those beliefs? Can you paint the whole gaming culture as sexist and misogyny based on an editorial piece? What is the consensus of the editors here on this? If its a minor belief within the gaming community, shouldn't this reflect the fact? If it is a major held belief, then leave it at that, but we would need some proof of that. 76.27.230.7 (talk) 03:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It reflects the sustained patterns of harassment that women within the video gaming culture, from developers to players, have experienced over the years. Tarc (talk) 03:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: that sounds like original research to me. Male players and designers have also sustained patterns of harassment and generalizations about their attributes. We could go so far to say that sexism is a problem in gaming as it is in ANY subculture, but to claim that sexism is worse, or that the particularly distasteful flavor of it that is genuine misogyny happens more in gaming than elsewhere (which is what 'ingrained' or 'long-standing' or even mentioning it at all conveys) is a strong claim which demands strong referencing, which hasn't been provided. It's also unclear just how much sexist harassment exists, since some harassment painted as sexist is actually a criticism of other attributes of a woman (like what charities they claim to donate to, or the actual quality of their game) which are being misleadingly reframed. Ranze (talk) 12:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As with most of your input into this area, you are woefully incorrect. We go by what the reliable sources say, which note the deep-seated sexism and harassment that males in the community subject females to, and have been doing for quite awhile. Males who have been harassed have not been singled out because of their gender, when is where your boiler-plate Men's Rights Movement claptrap of an argument usually falls apart. Tarc (talk) 12:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Please quote your reliable sources as well as provide links and proof that they are actually reliable. That said, I have never seen any proof that 'gamers' that happen to be female have been harassed due to their gender more then men have. Rape threats are not sexist, they are threats. Please learn what sexism is. Also, there no proof that the peopel making the threats are gamers themselves.--Thronedrei (talk) 14:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: what does did you cut n paste this from the Men's Rights Movement? from your summary refer to? Believing that emotion-conveying words (hatred, fear, etc.) are overused in cases where a lack of evidence for emotion exists does not make one part of an interest group.

Males and females have both been victims of harassment. To paint men as the harassers of those females who allege they were harassed is itself sexist, as females have also been critical of other females. This is more of a gamers criticizing gamers issue, sometimes a criticized gamer is female, that doesn't necessarily make the criticism sexist. Sometimes it is, yeah, but it's fine to reserve the right to assess that on a case by case basis. Our views may not match on which sources ought to be called reliable. Males have actually been singled out for their gender among gamers too, where do you think terms like 'neckbeard' originate? Is that meant to apply equally to women? The whole stereotype of gamers being more sexist than others or even misogynist are themselves sexist stereotypes male gamers are subjected to more than female ones. Ranze (talk) 12:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, Men's Rights claptrap. Men attacking other men are not doing so for a gender-based reason, it simply does not exist; when women are targeted for being women, that is a whole different situation, esp. when the threats revolve around sex-oriented violence, as Quinn and Sarkeesian and others were subjected to, and continue to be subjected to at present. Do not ping me again, as I am less than interested in your rather callous opinion on this tangent. Tarc (talk) 13:35, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, more unsubstantiated claims. Where is your proof that men targeting women is sexist? Where is your proof that men targeting men isn't? Also, sex-oriented violence? If you mean sexual-oriented violence, then that is not sexism.--Thronedrei (talk) 14:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Tarc you are welcome to ping me as often as you like, I will try to remember to avoid doing so in the future, though I hope you'll forgive me if I forget in a couple months or something. I would appreciate it if you could respond solely to the content of our discussion and not start your rebuttals with distracting ad-hominem accusations. I will point out that it is possible for someone to be discriminatory against a group one is a member of. Men can attack men over women for sexist reasons, women can attack women over men for sexist reasons. I do not believe the gender of Quinn and Sarkeesian are the primary reasons either are attacked, and I don't think that has been proven in any reliable way. There are gender-neutral reasons provided for the criticism of both. To say that attacks on them revolve around sex is like saying that attacks on Obama revolve around race. Although certainly bigotry can rear its head in both cases and contribute to unjust criticism, to use that to create a broad brush to condemn most criticism as being rooted in this is unfounded. I also don't think Quinn or Sarkeesian threats 'revolve' around sex-oriented violence. Although it is inevitable that somebody (probably a troll rather than someone with genuine intention) will throw a 'u gonna get raeped' in the direction of any public figure, no conclusive evidence has been presented that this content forms a significant portion of (much less majority of) criticism in their direction. Ranze (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's the thing: It doesn't have to be "proven." We don't operate on your standard of "objective proof," we operate on a standard of what reliable sources say. And reliable sources say that misogyny and sexism is endemic in video gaming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Ranze:, Tarc is known for posting inflammatory remarks and turning your words into strawmen as above. It's supposedly against the rules, but there's no admin around here willing to enforce the rules; so your better chance is ignoring anything s/he writes that is not directly related to making changes to the article content. As Tarc has yet to write anything with respect to article content, that means ignoring almost anything s/he writes at this talk page. 212.0.102.74 (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Even if someone is being rude or engaging in fallacy I still prefer to engage in conversation in hopes of things improving. I don't like the tactic of ignoring. Even if they don't change, replies can still benefit readers who might otherwise believe straw-men introduced unless they are destrawed. I would like to see more active admin involvement aimed at improving the quality of discussion and resolving disagreements. WPns like Masem have been polite and not engaged in the level of name-calling I've seen from others but even there we often seem to reach impasses of subtle yet import differences in how we interpret both conversations and words used in references that great vast gaps in what conclusions we reach as we converse. Especially here I maintain an imagining of mutual good faith that could benefit from co-operative admins, as opposed to condemnatory admins which might be more appropriate with name-callers like Tarc. Ranze (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

We do not make the statement that the sexism and misogyny is ingrained in the community, but the culture (encompassing all parts of video game industry including devs and journalists and publishers), a very key difference in wording. I would agree that we actually would not be able to say that the community has these ingrained issues as that's very difficult to source, but for the culture, it is very well sourced and acknowledged as a problem. --MASEM (t) 13:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the key phrase is that you (take it singular or plural) are making this statement, rather than a balanced assessment of references commenting on the issue. Yang clearly contradicts and luckily for you the page was locked preventing your blatant removal of contradicting evidence to advance your PoV. The word 'acknowledged' is biased, and your false claim is not well-sourced at all, you picked a single journal entry and ignored contrasting viewpoints, cherry-picking only the reference that supports you. Ranze (talk) 12:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Revealing that you are in the organization means nothing. The possibility of being neutral while being involved in the issues is a misleading argument. Again, it means nothing. Possibility means nothing. A chance of it's validity doesn't implicitly give it validity. Repeating the point I have made in my previous statement, she is in the Kotaku as a writer when Gamergate happened. Kotaku is the website involved in the controversy, her words on the subject is therefore discredited. I wasn't talking about Gamasutra. Note my conversation above when I made this point. Exefisher (talk) 06:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Kotaku was not involved; the initial accusations were not made at Kotaku but at the writer. Big difference. --MASEM (t) 13:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Masem: Isn't the idea more that Gawker Media as a whole is involved? Ranze (talk) 19:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Uh, no. You can't seriously be claiming that anyone who has ever written for Gawker Media is now "involved" because they write or wrote for a large media conglomerate. That's patently absurd. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think THIS hits the nail on the head Retartist (talk) 22:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is the person involved in the controversy allowed to be a source in this?

The WSJ article was written by the same person involved in the controversy, this is bias. EDIT: Corrections I meant the Time magazine article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exefisher (talk • contribs) 09:16, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing from the Wall Street Journal used in the article. Could you be more specific as to the issue at hand?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:30, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Per your correction, it has been previously discussed that content by Leigh Alexander prior to Intel pulling ads from Gamasutra are still considered reliable sources because at the time she was not a "person involved in the controversy". You cannot retroactively discredit a source like this because the author has become part of what has since happened.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Corrections. She's in the organizations involved in the controversy. Since that's the case, using her article as a source will be counted as bias. I — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exefisher (talk • contribs) 11:36, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

What "organizations involved in the controversy"? Is this organization the "video game media"? It's clear you're trying to discredit her word here, and the word of anyone that has voiced opposition to Gamergate. It's not going to fly.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Ridiculous for you to assume that I meant video game media, do not make a strawman. Kotaku is involved in the controversy, also video game media is GENERAL. Kotaku is one of them which is involved in it. Also it is quite clear that you are trying to discredit my words here and the word of anyone that is for Gamergate. It's not going to fly.Exefisher (talk) 04:44, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Exefisher, this has been pointed out again and again, and a handful of editors continue to insist that it's a usable source. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Willhesucceed (talk) 13:15, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Consensus on an issue that can be argued doesn't mean anything other than argumentum ad populum. Exefisher (talk) 04:44, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Populum implies there's a majority, I think 'handful' is more appropriate, I don't think people insisting a NYT article by a Kotaku member is a valid source necessarily constitute a majority, so WHS is more like 'some people insist so... why u object?" or something. Ranze (talk) 12:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Or the way to actually explain it is, a majority of editors cite project policy regarding verifiability and sourcing. This is not a point of legitimate contention. Tarc (talk) 13:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The Time piece was written well before the Intel bit made her "involved", so it is a completely acceptable source. Now that she is, her writing would be a "dependent" source as involved, meaning we'd prefer independent sources for equivalent information, but not invalid as a source. --MASEM (t) 13:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC) Again, she is involved in the organizations which is in the heart of the controversy. Therefore she was bias even before she herself was involved in it.Exefisher (talk) 04:44, 13 October 2014 (UTC) Never mind that Alexander writes for Gamasutra, Polygon, Kotaku, that she's written over and over again about how much she despises her audience, that her Twitter feed is full of even more of such bile, editors will continue to insist she's a good source on this. Imagine if we treated the Westboro Baptist Church's thoughts on homosexuality as reliable. This is basically the same thing. But it's okay because Time knows so much about video games that surely they wouldn't pick the wrong person to write the article! ;) Willhesucceed (talk) 17:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind: sources are judged case by case , and in reference to what they have done. Alexander has a history of good journalism before this, so if she writes an article that contains factual statements with no hint of bias or opinion, that's fine. If she writes something as her opinion, we have to judge how appropriate it is to include here. (Note that her "rant" piece on the death of gamers is not used to source anything about the event, outside of it being highlighted in the Intel situation, for example). --MASEM (t) 17:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The fact that she was involved in the controversy destroyed her credibility in the subject, using a piece of opinion as intel itself is a fallacious move and further judging is unnecessary. Explanations? An opinion which is a judgment of situations not a descriptions even if it is, it's bound to be bias. Exefisher (talk) 04:44, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it didn't. I mean, seriously, can you put together a comprehensible argument? If "being involved in a controversy" meant we could no longer use someone as a source, wouldn't we have to remove every single pro-GamerGate source because they're involved in the controversy too? Think for 10 seconds before you post such illogical word salad. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

That isn't even what I said. Also, a strawman, it isn't just a "being involved in a controversy" argument, it's being involved therefore being bias about it. So no. It's a comprehensible argument if you simply just comprehend it. Also do remove any pro-Gamergate articles just base on an opinion because unless it describes facts, it likely won't have neutrality. Exefisher (talk) 05:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You sure do like being condescending don't you, Willhesucceed? (´･ω･`) Perhaps she would have a better view of the movement if it hadn't attacked her viciously and cost her website money because people were incensed over her actions instead of just like not going to her website anymore. No. You have to get advertising pulled instead of just not going to the website in the first place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Do not make ridiculous accusations of attack unless you have evidences. No one other than trolls have attacked her, generalizations and false accusations is unfounded for Misplaced Pages. Moreover is your "perhaps she would have better view of the movement" admitting that she is bias?Exefisher (talk) 04:44, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

And who are you to make pronouncements of who attacked her or not? Are you presuming to know better than her who attacked her? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Never said that. Was referring to Ryulong's accusations of Willhesucceed attacking websites. I didn't make any pronouncement. Are you referring to the generalizations I made? 4chan is the main place where they actually attack Zoey Quinn other than that there nothing of note that, no source or evidence of anyone else that is just attacking her for the sake of it.If you have it. Show it. Exefisher (talk) 05:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference between a dependent source (which she now is due to the Intel part) and an unreliable source, which there is no evidence that she is unreliable that has been brought forward. Bias != unreliability unless it has been a clear pattern of bias for a long time, which cannot be shown here. We do have to be careful but we don't avoid her. And as pointed out several times before, the articles we use from her were before Intel pulled their ads so those are even more in the clear for this. --MASEM (t) 04:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, a piece of opinion cannot hold any neutrality because it is bias and therefore unreliable. You said that the clear pattern of bias cannot be shown here but I already said the very fact of being involved in the controversy themselves has already discredit the argument altogether. The argument about it intel had already been explained. "using a piece of opinion as intel itself is a fallacious move and further judging is unnecessary. Explanations? An opinion which is a judgment of situations not a descriptions even if it is, it's bound to be bias." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exefisher (talk • contribs)

By default any opinion piece will have a bias, which doesn't make it unreliable. It is if that bias continues into non-opinion pieces that becomes a question of reliability (eg of the Fox News style). Being involved does not implicitly create a bias; they are dependent, but they can still report neutrally on the manner as long as, should it apply, they reveal their connection to it (as Gamasutra is now doing as they report on GG based issues). And again to stress: at the time that those articles were written, she was not involved - the Intel issue , or even the intense criticism on her Gamasutra piece - had not happened, so a source cannot retroactively become unreliable because of a sudden new involvement that arrives. --MASEM (t) 15:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Opinions are bias. Since you have accepted it as a fact, there should be no further debates. The article cannot be used as a source for supporting the statement of allegations being unfounded, it can be said that she denied the allegations that was put forward not that it was unfounded. Revealing that you are in the organization means nothing. The possibility of being neutral while being involved in the issues is a misleading argument. Again, it means nothing. Possibility means nothing. A chance of it's validity doesn't implicitly give it validity. Repeating the point I have made in my previous statement, she is in the Kotaku as a writer when Gamergate happened. Kotaku is the website involved in the controversy, her words on the subject is therefore discredited. I was not talking about Gamasutra. Exefisher (talk) 06:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You're simply wrong, per established WP sourcing policy. Alexander's earlier pieces are completely valid sources. Your argument effectively eliminates any video game journalist from being used as a source due to being involved in GG, which is not going to happen and would leave even a more biased article against proGG since mainstream sources aren't taking that side with any severity. --MASEM (t) 13:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No, if a "body" has a vested interest in the outcome of any given situation, then that needs to be taken into consideration. I'm not saying that gamer journalists should be banned as sources, but they need to be treated as the second hand sources they are in some/most cases, and as a political organization with a vested interest in an outcome favorable to them in other cases. For instance any article/blog written by somebody on the "pro-Gamergate" have a vested interest in one outcome right? And the same thing can be said about the journalists that are trying to cover up any misconduct. As such, they can bear witness -- but their witness itself is NOT proof of anything. Proof is actual proof you know? That is why anything reported from a gamer journalist on the subject since they by rule can't be unbiased in something that they are personally involved in, should be seen as a claim made by anyone else. They are no longer valid sources. Referring to them as a source is like Misplaced Pages referring to itself as a source.--Thronedrei (talk) 14:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It is worth remembering that Alexander's piece in Time is not a significant source in the article, as on the whole it is only being used to support the opinions of Alexander, or to provide additional support to claims that are already referenced. Is there any particular use of the reference that is a concern? - Bilby (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about the use of biased sources in the broader term, not that Jason Alexander man in particular. Any and all sources need to be treated as what they are if referenced at all when they are being used. I.-E we should not treat a piece written by a person with a clear bias as a "reliable source". Once they are bias they are the opposite of reliable as far ass neutrality go.--Thronedrei (talk) 14:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I assumed that this was focused on Leigh Alexander's article from Time. I guess the main point is that the reliability of a source is dependent on the claim that it is making - strong and controversial claims need strong sources, but uncontroversial ones can be more forgiving. If the sources being questioned are only used for uncontroversial claims, then it isn't a major concern. - Bilby (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Every source has a bias and there is no such thing as perfect objectivity. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

"Biased" is not unusable, per WP's rules. We have to aware of the bias, and make sure that when they state opinions we're clear they are opinions, but their facts are consistent with facts presented by other sources and with even blogs and forum posts that we can't otherwise use, so no one is falsely reporting the facts of the case here. --MASEM (t) 14:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm tired of people mentioning WP rules and not posting them in their actual post. Please reference the actual wiki rule, don't just link to it since wikipedia is muddled. That said, I don't recall making the claim that biased sources were unusable, I was making the claim that a biased source was invalid and later that they no longer can be considered a reliable source. The issue here is that the article does NOT mention that Alexander has a vested interest in a favorable outcome for himself, nor is it mentioned that Jason Alexander was just posting an opinion and that his articles was not based on actual investigative journalism. Unlike many pro-gamergate posters here, I feel that this gamergate article should be cut down in size and only contain a bare minimum of info. But that is not what has happened here. Opinions written on blogs by bloggers are used as source and evidence when they are nothing but second hand opinions. Since when did Misplaced Pages start using opinions posted by bloggers as actual proof that something was actually true?--Thronedrei (talk) 14:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe the relevant policy you are looking for is WP:OPINION. If you think there is an opinion piece being used to characterize opinion as fact, or being used to add facts not referenced in other sources, by all means be bold and make the change yourself. Once you do, just mention the change on the talk page in it's own section. aprock (talk) 00:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Source saying the gaming press is biased

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/10/11/gamergate-does-games-journalism-have-a-liberal-bias-problem/

"These sites shame readers and proponents of GamerGate with attempts to appeal to their humanism, effectively coercing emotional responses. Instead of objectively reporting on a cultural dilemma, these journalists become personally involved."

"Much of this content is sensationalist in nature and is so saturated with bias that the writers neglect their duty to present clear, dual-sided content. What readers are given instead is eerily similar to propaganda."

"Sottek’s piece feels like a personal tirade, a kind of rant, where he attempts to unceremoniously dismantle the movement while being oblivious to his favoritism of games journalist Leigh Alexander, games developer Zoe Quinn and left-wing feminist critic/activist Anita Sarkeesian."

"These outlets conveniently overlook the swath of offensive content found in Alexander’s social media interactions on Twitter, which have since been deleted."

"It could even be argued that key websites support Alexander by writing smear content because of personal favoritism–not professional courtesy–and used their high standings in the media to retaliate."

"Attacking GamerGate seems like a knee-jerk reaction to a very real threat–one that could out the media’s established, almost-incestuous relationship with itself. But even still the liberal media refuses to take responsibility for its part of the cultural rift simply because it doesn’t see what it’s done wrong."

"This is not a media that’s free of corruption. This is a media that freely caters to liberal activism and shakes its finger at you for saying its wrong."

These are the most interesting quotes. Racuce (talk) 09:30, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

BrightSideOfNews.com is not considered a reliable source as Derek Strickland is not a member of its staff and is simply someone who has been using the website to publish content on Gamergate that would not get posted anywhere else.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 09:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, that is unfortunate, but thanks for pointing this out Racuce (talk) 10:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If it's been published there, it will have gone through the editorial team. Therefore it's RS. Willhesucceed (talk) 10:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Similar pieces by the author at the website have been pointed out to not be reliable sources on the Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn pages. Strickland is not a staff writer and BrightSideOfNews.com's format just goes "send us a story and we might publish it".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Source those claims. Willhesucceed (talk) 13:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have to source shit here but if you insist Talk:Zoe Quinn/Archive 1#Possible sourcing for controversy., Talk:Gamergate controversy/Archive 1#Finding Sources, Talk:Gamergate controversy/Archive 4#Why was my submission closed?, Talk:Gamergate controversy/Archive 5#NPOV tag, Talk:Gamergate controversy/Archive 6#Undue weight tag, Talk:Gamergate controversy/Archive 7#Asian sources / Patreon / Quinn, Talk:Anita Sarkeesian#Pieces discussing general criticism. Pieces from Bright Side of News have been consistently rejected as reliable sources, primarily because Derek Strickland is not on the payroll for the website and they have no information available on their guidelines for submission or their editorial policies. They invite anyone who wants to publish something through them to send them an article. It's self-publishing being vaguely given some credence. I can also see that you, Willhesucceed, have consistently pushed for pieces written by Strickland to be used in this article. Drop the stick.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be applied to the source used from Time Magazine since she was not the official writer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exefisher (talk • contribs) 11:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but Time Magazine has a history of editorial oversight. BrightSideOfNews.com does not. Stop trying to get the Leigh Alexander piece removed because she was critical of the movement and then her website had its advertising pulled in retaliation.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the Time article gets to stay because Wiki contributors say so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Willhesucceed (talk) 13:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Time is an established publication with an editorial history that everyone knows about. BSN* is not. Drop the stick. This is just the same gater shit over and over again. You want unbiased press but you praise the press that's highly biased in your favor.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

More strawman from you. Exefisher (talk) 06:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I have yet to see a decent argument given for why BSN is not a reliable source. Derek Strickland has extensive experience in gaming journalism and BSN requires that any submissions include sources and be reviewed by the editorial staff, even if we assume the staff listing is an exhaustive up-to-date list. We cite the rantings of a late-night comedy talk show host regarding the state of journalism and even use her to rag on Milo a bit, so I think this source should at least be given more meaningful consideration.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

His writing has been excluded on every other page related to this topic because of the BLP concerns in his writing, the fact that he is. It a staff member of bright side of news, and that their submissions process is not known. It only says that maybe they will give the wrter credit. Why is Strickland writing for this website and none of the other ones he apparently has a history with? Why is this man's opinion, being touted as a neutral and unbiased source by the pro-Gamergate editors, so important that we must use it to refute everything else in the article when no one else on the Internet will publish his writing?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You can't just cry "Not reliable" without reason and have that be enough for policy reasons. None of the discussions you point to establish any consensus on the source and the reasons you provide here are completely absurd. Many outlets do not explicitly lay out in detail how they review submissions. The fact it is subject to editorial review is important. The fact they demand that submissions come with sources is important. The fact the author has long-time experience in gaming journalism is important. All I see in all those discussions are a few people who clearly disagree with what the writer is saying coming up with a bunch of invalid reasons to exclude him as a source.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

An unreliable source declares a reliable source is biased. That's the beginning and the end of the discussion right there. Tarc (talk) 13:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

New article from Reason magazine

Part 1 (suggesting part 2 may be coming).

Yes, Reason is liberal-leaining and so definitely siding proGG on this but it is also a person not involved in the gaming community and for all other purposes an RS, for at least setting up some of the rationale of what proGG side is looking for. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, this is the same article published in RealClearPolitics. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

With some slight changes:

Note: This version of the article incorporates a minor correction to the original, which incorrectly stated that the Kotaku editor who contributed to Zoe Quinn's crowdfunding account went on to review her game. It also contains some additional information in the first paragraph on the political profile of GamerGate supporters.

Willhesucceed (talk) 15:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It still contains a number of unsubstantiated or outright debunked claims about Quinn that may make it tricky from a WP:BLP aspect. Also Reason is basically the house magazine of the Libertarian movement, and in no sense "Liberal". Artw (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

However, unlike the pub in RCP (which admits its an aggregator and not editorialized), Reason is, making at least some of the comments usable. I did see the "mistake" about Jade for example, but there's other factors that are completely legit "here's what proGG is looking for" statements that are not refuted by anything else we have. --MASEM (t) 15:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Useful for her opinions, if we decide they're interesting enough to merit inclusion. Not usable for allegations about living people. She states her POV on her sleeve right up front by comparing "SJWs" to "cultist zealots who enforce the party line with the fervor of Mao's Red Guards." So like The Week piece, et al., it's an op-ed rather than a reported news story. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:42, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The difference between the Cooper piece and the Young piece, is that the former did not really make any factual claims about anything. It was pure opinion, while the latter contains many factual claims, backed by sources. Her opinionated statements should be treated as opinion, but her factual statements should be given greater consideration.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think we can use this for any BLP (outside of some claims that proGG have been harassed or doxxed), but her other points are reasonable for inclusion to document the proGG side. --MASEM (t) 21:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any actual sources for the key claims about living people, just links to the same tired, accusatory conspiracy nonsense at best and argument by assertion at worst. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If we're going to go down that path, all of the articles based solely on Quinn's claims will have to be removed, as that's as good as being unsourced. Goodbye, New Yorker! Willhesucceed (talk) 22:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a big difference between conspiracies theories that have no sourcing to back it up at all, and someone claiming they are being issued death threats and harassment that can be verified by looking at social media to see what is happening. --MASEM (t) 23:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't really see any conspiracy theories in Young's piece, nor anything significant about living people not already covered by other sources. Her characterization of "Social Justice Warriors" is no less inflammatory than the characterizations of GamerGate we find in countless sources being used in this article for factual details.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that this article makes claims about identifiable living people, which we treat significantly differently than claims about an anonymous, amorphous Twitter-hashtag group. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Leigh Alexander's "list of ethics problems"

From her own blog.

Understanding she's involved, etc. etc. , that this is an SPS, etc. etc. I will point out that I've seen this linked now from a few other RS places (eg ) to show that there is legit ethical concerns in the industry above and beyond the current GG issue. I know there's other sources that are by VG journalists that affirm that there are self-recognized problems with how the current VG journalism industry is being run. I'm just not 100% sure how to include it or if it needs including. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Could probably go at the end of the second paragraph. Artw (talk) 19:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

And no, showing that concerns about journalistic ethics in games journalism exist does not support the claim that GakerGate has ever addressed them, in fact per the source they have not. Artw (talk) 00:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that she made that blog post purely in reaction to the GamerGate thing. No idea how it's relevant, just putting it out there. --86.140.193.247 (talk) 00:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, could we get a couple of those mentioned source in here as well? Would be nice to substantiate the points she makes in her blog with other sources. --86.140.193.247 (talk) 00:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure we can source better the specific cases, my suggestion is that here is a journalist that provides a partial list of what issues they know are wrong with game journalism, suggesting they want to also try to fix the situation with input from those concerned about it. --MASEM (t) 15:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

If we're mentioning said ethical problems it's fine. It's funny that she doesn't even mention the major ethical problems in gaming right now that involves her though — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loganmac (talk • contribs) 08:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Quinn picture

Given that the picture on Zoe Quinn got switched out for a cropped headshot, should the picture here get replaced as well? Also, since it's still a crummy picture either way, has anyone asked her if she'll release a better photo of herself into the public domain or licensed as CC-BY-SA? --PresN 22:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I prefer the uncropped picture on both articles, it shows Quinn at an industry event. Whereas the crop just shows a face. I thought about cropping it originally, but couldn't get it a size I liked without including too much of the guy on the right, so just left it as is. By chance, I spotted Quinn commenting on the photo in a Reddit thread and directed her to Wikimedia Commons - hahnchen 00:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

She's released another picture of herself as CC-BY-SA, it's now up on Zoe Quinn if anyone thinks it's better. --PresN 03:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That picture looks really amateurish for an Encyclopedia, the picture in the article is fine. Good quality and shows her at a gaming event as mentioned Loganmac (talk) 08:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Conflicts of interest? Were there any?

With a couple of snips for brevity, the opening now reads:

Gamergate ... concerns ... journalistic ethics in the online gaming press, particularly conflicts of interest between video game journalists and developers.

I've snipped out the bits I don't see a problem with, in order to focus on what remains.

Do we have any actual evidence from reliable sources of de facto conflicts of interest? Obviously the Zoe Quinn allegations won't wash there. Anything else mentioned under the Gamergate tag? I do notice that we state that the initial assertions of conflict of interest were proven unfounded.

I'd suggest changing this to:

Gamergate ... concerns ... journalistic ethics in the online gaming press, with a primary focus on alleged conflicts of interest between video game journalists and independent developers.

This drills down a bit to the original unfounded allegations which are still, alas, circulating.

We don't want the opening section to promise more than the article body can deliver. --TS 23:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, we have journalists themselves recognizing that they have conflicts of interest with AAA publishers (as well as indie devs) - eg , (from 2012), , and I could get more. It is not limited to the indie devs here, and is one of those problems they do recognize. --MASEM (t) 23:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Whoa! Collosal misuse of sources there. Artw (talk) 23:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

To date GamerGate has uncovered nothing that would reasonably be described as a conflict of interest, corruption or an infraction of journalistic ethics. Nor do they actually show any interest in any of those things, despite claims to the contrary. Artw (talk) 00:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I've heard pro-GGers scream about the GameJournoPro email list/group. Would it be considered a breach of journalistic ethics for said journalists to talk amongst themselves about whether or not to cover a story, or would the fact that the story would cause unneeded harm actually support journalistic ethics? --86.140.193.247 (talk) 00:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Every profession has back-channels for talking amongst themselves, socializing, sharing ideas, discussing issues, etc. While there could theoretically be concerns if literally every journalist on the list agreed about everything... the leaked e-mails actually revealed that there was widespread disagreement among list members about the issue, that the idea of putting out a group support letter was generally rejected and that nothing remotely resembling "collusion" occurred. What ended up being leaked were long e-mail threads of journalists arguing with each other. Which is why the "story" was a fat nothingburger that never went beyond Breitbart. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Right, JournoList wasn't a thing at all. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

If this had been covered by anything remotely resembling the reliable sources that covered JournoList, your comparison might have merit.

JournoList was explicitly, if not admittedly, ideological; limited to liberal and liberal-leaning journalists only; and a number of the leaked e-mails showed behavior that was, charitably, open to interpretations that it represented bias. GameJournoPros had none of the above features. The e-mails were leaked... and everyone yawned because they showed nothing more than journalists arguing with each other. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:40, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

A number of sources have mentioned the Patreon problems, especially in Asia, and every time I bring them up editors waffle and hum and haw. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Please note that the allegation that was considered unfounded was specifically the claim of Quinn having sex for a positive review of her game. There is no indication that actually happened and Grayson did not write any such review. We have nothing addressing a broader claim of a conflict of interest on Grayson's part based on his relationship with Quinn. As to conflicts of interest that have been noted in reliable sources, you can check in the legitimacy of concerns section where some are noted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no such broader claim, because for a conflict of interest to exist you have to have two conflicting interests. Absent a review by Grayson, there's no interest to conflict. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, no there was an article written about her and, per Kotaku's disclosure, it was right before the relationship started. Reliable sources have not really touched that angle of the story, though, hence why we should make it very clear what allegation we are saying was proven unfounded.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The story wasn't about her, it mentioned her. It was before the relationship started, by anyone's timeline. Any allegation about that article is, at best, totally-unprovable speculative gossip seeking literally anything with which to attack its target. Which is likely why no source has touched it or is likely to. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

So could we switch to saying alleged? I'm not seeing any Gamergate-derived conflicts. Doritogate was ages ago and, besides, the Gamergate people really haven't gone after the AAA developers the way they did Zoe Quinn. --TS 02:15, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I'd have to chew through a few sources, but first - while alleged, some journalists and devs specifically in response to the GG side have stated they have connections with others, and have discussed this is norm for the industry - as to a point admitting part of the proGG complaints (the other aspect, that journalists have specifically favored these people, are unfounded to the best I know). As such, if we want "alleged" we'd have to reword the statement. Second, it has been established that these past issues with the journalistic press has been part of the complains of GG (though far from the current ones), that before GG went down, there was already distrust of the system. Add that there are people on both sides that want to open a discussion of game ethics. (Mind you, there's a lot you can read into why the GG side has not gone after AAA developers which has been discussed above, but would be OR for this article). --MASEM (t) 02:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I've seen the gaming media pointing out possible problems, and I've seen the gamergate email campaigns against media outlets whose views are too progressive for their liking, but I've seen very little in the way of sourced, specific criticism about any genuine conflicts of interest coming out of gamergate (as opposed to out of the gaming media). They exit, but with nothing to connect them to gamergate, presenting these sources as examples of the 'corruption' that gamergate claims to be attacking would be original research, because the fact is these are not the issues that the movement is focusing on. In fact we've had several occasions now of people saying 'hey, why hasn't gamergate mentioned this very real, concrete and obvious example of conflicts of interest in games journalism instead of, you know, setting off another harassment campaign of yet another relatively minor indie dev?' The most recent (though I don't think it's made any RS yet) being the question of why Escapist's vehemently pro-GG editor who published their recent article about 'what Game Devs think' about gamergate (that is, the *real* game devs, the male ones, to contrast with their previous article about what the *female* game deves think) didn't disclose his financial interest in one of the devs selected to represent 'game devs.' Sauce for geese isn't sauce for ganders, I suppose. I think at this point it's past time to stop taking gamergate's word for the 'corruption' angle in absence of any source other than gaters saying 'gamergate is about corruption.' -- TaraInDC (talk) 02:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

There were a whole pile of problems with that Escapist piece - it wasn't their finest moment. :) Other than the false allegations about Quinn and Grayson, I'm aware of two claims about COI emerging from GamerGate. One was the Patreon issue, with at least two journalists supporting a developer through Patreon. That, however, is questionable in regards to COI, as I don't think a solid case has been made as to why that should be regarded as a COI. The second was with a journalist who was close to a developer, and I believe it was claimed that they shared a house at some point. That one was more substantial, in that the relationship was of close friends, and did lead to some clarification of the ethics policy from one of the gaming sites. Beyond that, the various allegations of COI from the GG-side of things have been unproven, as far as I'm aware. - Bilby (talk) 03:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Even though we're reaching Forum type discussion, not having monetarial links to your subject is almost the number one rule of proper journalism, why do you think otherwise. In more serious aspects of journalism these people would be laughed at for not acknowledging it. And as mentioned before, the GameJournosPro list, someone saying they shouldn't "cover" the story is collusion, blacklisting and unethical everywhere you look. That journalist you say shared a house, it's a Kotaku journalist (not giving names for BLP), but she did in fact re-edit her articles to include mentions that she was close to the people being covered. Saying there's no COI anywhere is just ridiculous and I hope you don't really think that Loganmac (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The Kokatu journalist is the one issue that has been shown to have been a COI through GamerGate, although it is unclear as to how significant it was - an issue, but not on the same level as some of the COI problems we've seen in the past. But that might be enough to say we don't need to add "alleged" to the article. The GameJournosPro list ended up being largely overblown, but at any rate isn't a COI concern. - Bilby (talk) 04:35, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You obviously haven't actually read the leaked e-mails from the list, because there's nothing about them that can remotely be described as "collusion." Nobody agreed on anything except that harassment is a bad thing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, this is not a forum but I'll source this http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/09/19/inside-the-secret-world-of-games-journalism/ "they discuss what to write about, what to include, and more importantly, what to omit.", one screencaps says and I quote "I would LOVE to use my platform to reproach this kind of behavior... but that would go against 's valid and understandable desire not to have this personal matter publicized by the media... Maybe we should just stick to Twitter to boost the signal on this one, rather than our 'front pages." "Maybe we should get a public letter of support going around decrying these kinds of personal attacks, signed by as many sympathetic journalists/developers as we can," "Maybe we should just use this as an excuse to give more attention to her work... I know I've been meaning to review Depression Quest since its Steam release." Do you think this is ethical in any way or form or you're just defending you view point for the sake of not agreeing with anything about GG, also lol, just to let you know, I've had acess to more emails than there are publicly available, personally I think this discussion should be locked as it's not even relevant to the article Loganmac (talk) 05:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's the key word: Discuss. You have provided a number of cherry-picked quotes from the many people expressing their opinions about the subject. You have conveniently omitted any number of quotes from people who were uncomfortable with the idea of "signal boosting" and you have conveniently omitted the fact that the vast majority of people commenting on the "public letter of support" idea said it was inappropriate and the person who offered the idea later withdrew it and said he recognized the ethical issues with what he was proposing.

The word "collusion" doesn't mean "people expressing opinions," it means some sort of under-the-table agreement to do or not do something. None of the e-mails show any sort of general agreement by any group of people to follow a particular party line on this matter — thus, there is no "collusion." That's why reliable sources completely ignored it — because it's a nothingburger.

All you're left with is a bunch of journalists talking to (and arguing with) each other about what they're writing, how they're covering it, their thoughts about the issue, etc. In other words, a standard professional backchannel as has existed in every profession forever. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Just before we go any further along this path, whether or not the GameJournosPro link was ethical is interesting, but not related to a conflict of interest. It might have been unethical, but it isn't a COI allegation, so won't help the current discussion as to whether or not the claims of conflicts of interest were alleged or real. - Bilby (talk) 06:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is one example not currently covered in the article: .--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe that has been discussed before but has shown no obvious connection to GG. --MASEM (t) 05:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Read the article, please.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It's a different version of what has been put before, but key is the lack of any serious connection to GG - beyond happening at the same time the situation with GG blew up. There is no evidence that the report of the hack was driven by backlash from GG from other sources that also reported on this. --MASEM (t) 06:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The Reddit thread was being pushed on Twitter by GamerGate before anyone reported on it. Kotaku not giving them credit is, well, unsurprising. Suffice to say, it was definitely tied in with GamerGate and we have a reliable source that verifies as much.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, the story was discussed before, and we've determined the ties to GG are tenuous at best - it happened at the same time when ethical reporting was being questioned by GG and the fact there's no direct mention of GG or the issues of GG by involved parties is a strong hint that it's not tied to it. Even this CinemaBlend piece doesn't affirm a connection, just noting this went on as GG was in full gear. --MASEM (t) 06:21, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Funny how an account just popped up on Reddit all of a sudden in the middle of all this to make a bunch of claims about Australian gaming media being too close to the Australian gaming industry and yet you are arguing that, even though a source explicitly relates this to GamerGate, we should not include it because you feel this has nothing to do with GamerGate despite it being pushed a lot on Twitter by a bunch of major names in GamerGate prior to the reporting. Cool, and apparently Tara is going to use such exclusions as a reason to slant this article even more against GamerGate. I am thinking you are either just more moderately anti-GamerGate than some of the others here or are basically the Alan Colmes of GamerGate sympathizers.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It's looking like the upshot of this conversation is that no, there are no reliable sources indicating any legitimate conflicts of interest or other ethical problems that have been targeted, promoted or investigated as part of gamergate: all we have are sources on ethical problems, and sources that say that gamergate says its about ethics, but nothing that connects a to b. In light of that I support Tony Sidaway's initial proposal, but I think further work will be needed on the lede in light of the fact that two months down the line we still have few if any reliable sources taking the gaters' narrative seriously. We have extensive sources for the movement's misogynistic harassment and essentially nothing for its 'ethics concerns;' it's time the lede acknowledged that. -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

So, in light of the very clear opposition to the already blatantly anti-GamerGate slant of this article, you are proposing that we slant it even further on the basis of you thinking that the various changes in policy regarding conflicts of interest do no warrant it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

you've pretty comprehensively failed to make a case that GamerGate has ever turned up anything worthwhile. What you're doing now is basically just special pleading. Artw (talk) 23:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

"This article is so biased!!!" is not a coherent argument. We're supposed to be reflecting the sources here, not bending over backwards to accommodate poorly-sourced fringe viewpoints, no matter how many individual accounts are advocating that we do so. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

And you continue to downplay that while we cannot introduce more proGG arguments due to lack of any, we don't flood the space with antiGG ones just because there's counterpoint. There's moderation in how much of the antiGG side we should present while saying neutral in the matter. --MASEM (t) 23:15, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I really don't think WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE support you on this - it's basically just a personal theory of yours. Artw (talk) 23:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that "we cannot introduce more proGG arguments due to lack of any" is exactly the problem here. "Both sides have points" and "the truth is somewhere in the middle" are not always 'neutral' positions. See Gray fallacy. So long as we're abiding by WP:WEIGHT we're fine - and I'd argue that we're not, but only in that we're currently giving too much credence to the gaters' position. We have sources for the fact that gaters say their movement is about corruption, but actions speak louder and the reliable sources on what the movement is actually doing tell a very different story. Our lede currently has a rather inappropriate pro-gamergate bias by stating uncritically that gamergate is about things like corruption, ethics and conflicts of interest when the only such claims that the movement has even raised have proved to be complete bunk. We are not expected to treat all 'sides' of an issue seriously when our reliable sources are not doing so, and the preponderance of reliable sources do not take the 'it's about corruption' angle seriously. We can say that they claim it's about corruption, but at this point we're burying our heads in the sand by saying that it actually is, in Misplaced Pages's voice. -- TaraInDC (talk) 23:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree that we might be giving some weight to the proGG side, but at the same time, we are overloading this with very negative opinions about the proGG from antiGG sources that basically are there to convince the reader that proGG is bad, and that is not our function. Are they seen in a bad light? Sure, and there's no way to avoid that. But as pointed out before, we don't need to use sources to take pot shots at them every opportunity one arises, which is what the present Responses section is basically doing. Granted, with more articles coming out that now attribute stronger language towards proGG (eg "hate mob" in some recent ones), it is going to look worse for the proGG side but we can still moderate how much we include that points a finger at them. (We don't do this for "evil" people or groups in history, there's certainly no reason to do this here)

And "We are not expected to treat all 'sides' of an issue seriously when our reliable sources are not doing so" is absolutely the wrong attitude to take. First, some but not all are dismissing the proGG side, but there's still plenty of legit serious discussion about their complaints, and as such we as a neutral entity have to try that seriously in as much as we can to source it. You cannot reject this approach, this is required under NPOV, recongizing that the broad claims of what proGG want are far outside of FRINGE. We have to take what is being reported about what they want as serious as we take the claims the antiGG is making to effective balance this article in as much as it can be. That's one reason why we get floods of external editors and SPAs because there are people editing this that would rather not even give the proGG side the time of day. Until every source says "The GGers are spouting nonsense", we have to treat that side as a serious party in the debate. --MASEM (t) 23:35, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Reddit does not get a vote on whether we follow Misplaced Pages policy. Artw (talk) 23:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Reddit or the like as a source. I'm talking about established RSes that are at least still giving serious weight to the issues of proGG. I fully recognize that the trend right now is that if a segment of proGG continue the "strategy" they have been doing (re: Wu) that they are going to find fewer and fewer sources that will take them seriously, and at that point, there's little that this article could even do to give them a fair shake. But that day isn't here yet. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Artw was likely referring to the fact that you appear to be attempting to use the fact that this article is attracting lots of SPAs and POV pushers as evidence that it's biased against gamergate. I think that's a terrible argument, not the least because it essentially boils 'consensus' down to a majority rule: "if lots of people arrive on the project just to push a pov, that must mean the article is wrong!" Most of the SPAs won't be happy until the article is completely whitewashed and only portrays their movement the way they want it portrayed, so that's a terrible argument.

We are talking specifically about whether or not it is appropriate to state uncritically that gamergate is about conflicts of interest in absence of any evidence, and despite the sources we have which have pointed out that this isn't the case. I don't care that you think that an absence of 'pro-gg' sources means that we must limit well sourced information you consider 'anti-gg.' We need to know how you can justify the information in the current version of the lede when our mainstream sources are not only not supporting the idea that gamergate is concerned with corruption, but actively coming out against it. Repeating the same vague arguments you've been using for weeks about 'anti-gg bias' and 'too many quotes' and 'piling on' and so forth is not getting us anywhere. We have source after source that is focusing primarily on the misogynistic harassment that's the only tangible thing coming out of gamergate, and several that have mentioned the claims about 'conflicts of interest' and so forth only to state that they're simply hot air. At some point we're going to have to accept that this is not 'anti-gamergate bias.' It is pro-reality bias. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been involved in situations where there is a flood of SPAs making changes that are "stupid" changes (for example, following a Game Grumps run of Another World, too many editors were trying to change the charcter name to "Mike" to reflect a joke in that youtube). That type of stuff, I ignore and won't worry about. On the other hand, there are clear and valid concerns that this article is far too slanted as an antiGG piece and not considering the proGG side under a fair light (note: not necessary fair time, 50/50 split, but simply how the issues are presented.), and so the flood of SPAs that call out the unbiased aspects of this issue, irregardless of how much they may be fumbling around with proper policy applications, is a data point to not ignore, because they are correct - this in no way is a clinically neutral article. It makes WP take a side that has yet to be determined to be the "right" side - it's the more popular opinion in the press, definitely, but that doesn't make it right, and we should not be treating it as "right" just becuase there are a magnitude more voices speaking towards it. --MASEM (t) 22:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Escapism article

Could this article be more biased?

From the lede to the end of the article, this is heavily skewed towards a feminist viewpoint. Articles are cherry-picked to support one point of view, and weasel words are used constantly to support one side. Come on, Misplaced Pages editors, I know we can do better than this. Lithorien (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are written using only content that can be verified by reliable sources and must not give undue weight to minority view points not represented in reliable sources. In his instance, that means that this "feminist viewpoint" you describe is what predominates in the media regarding Gamergate as it is seen as conservative gamers trying to exclude feminist discussion of video games from the Internet by means of threatening to kill at current count 3 different women who dared to 1) have a sexual partner who happens to write for a cpvideo game news site and made a video game they didn't really like, 2) provide feminist commentary for video games that they do not really like, and 3) I don't really remember what Brianna Wu did to receive the most recently reported death threat. However, this content in the article presently does not actively exclude the content regarding seeking out conflicts of interest in the video games media and industry. It is just at none has been found that is reported in reliable source, at least none regardi he independent games scene rather than Bungee paying that one guy to do game reviews in front of bags of Doritos and bottles and/or cans of Mountain Dew. If you have any actual specific complaints, please raise them instead of vaguely complaining about something that has been discussed to death on this article's talk page.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Weren't you leaving to focus on other stuff lol that lasted a lot Loganmac (talk) 16:59, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I had free time during a layover.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Except as explained several times before we don't have to flood the article with one view because the other view cannot be readily documented. There is a major problem in that approach to villainize the entire other side. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Lithorien, "Heavily skewed" in this case just means that due weight has overall been given to reliable, mainstream sources. And those sources tend not to be in favor of foul-mouthed, anti-feminist conspiracy theorists. We've always had problems with systemic bias regarding stuff like the disproportionate number of articles on video games, military history and whatnot. This and the inane campaigning at Anita Sarkeesian is actually really part of the same bias, although in these cases, it's way past innocent quirkiness.

All I can say is: start getting used to the presentation of gender issues not going your own way. Even with female users in the minority, most dedicated users aren't keen on giving YouTube-ranters, Reddit regulars and other shrill amateurs undue representation on Misplaced Pages.

Peter 15:25, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You have too much faith in the editors. When the bias are systematic, nothing changes. Only way to fix this article is to make it unprotected and available for the mass to edit. Delay this enough and this article becomes THE Truth and a source of fact. 76.27.230.7 (talk) 18:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's content is based on verifiable facts, and not "THE truth" that the Gamergate movement subscribes to.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not certain I would label the problem in bias in this article a 'feminist' one necessarily. If anything it is more anti-gamer in nature. Feminism doesn't inherently mean calling something misogynistic for example, even if some of us might observe it is thrown around too freely based on unbacked reasoning amongst those communities, that is more like a problem that sometimes crosses over with feminism (much like sexism can be a problem that crosses over into gaming) and not an inherent attribute that would qualify describing the problem as based in that movement. Ranze (talk) 12:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

New Guardian article

It's actually more about how difficult it is to report neutrally on Gamergate due to the various tactics that the GG side uses. Definitely need to work this in if only to describe the broader press reaction to GG as difficult to judge and understand that side. --MASEM (t) 16:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I have been thinking there should be some effort to go into the politicization of the controversy and this actually offers a good take on it. The Bright Side of News being discussed further up provides another take.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Jezebel source (likely not usable but tracking for that)

Jezebel's take. Two problems here is 1) they're part of the same network as Kotaku so I'm sure there will be complaints on bias, and 2) they are a female-oriented website (not necessarily feminist but the implication that they bias on that side is there). As such, I can't see easy use save for the overall example of this author, who was doing a open survey study of the impact of sexism on video games who had the study effectively flooded with useless responses originating from some of the GGer side. (But again, do we need this? Only if a thirdparty comments more on this article) --MASEM (t) 18:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

They're also a group blog. So they're unusuable. Tutelary (talk) 18:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Not true: it's run very much like Kotaku as there is established editorial control, so that doesn't eliminate them as a source. --MASEM (t) 18:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

They're a blog. If they're somehow being used as a RS, the articles which do such should be investigated. Tutelary (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

No, the word "blog" isn't a magic word that prevents something from being used as an RS. Self-published blogs are not RS because they don't have external editorial control. Jezebel is not a self-published blog, it's a media platform akin to BuzzFeed, Kotaku, Engadget, etc. It has, in fact, a higher level of editorial control than the Forbes contributor articles by Erik Kain. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

So what's stopping me from starting my own 'blog' and calling it a 'media platform' to secretly influence articles on Misplaced Pages? Of course, shouting 'blog' doesn't make it unusable as a source, but The policy verifiability seems to make it so that it's largely unusable. Oh, and where's said proof of editorial control, North? I've yet to find a single instance of Jezebel having any. Tutelary (talk) 19:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, here's a link to their editorial staff that took me all of 5 seconds to find on the page. It's an established publication focusing on women's issues.

Nothing is stopping you from launching a publication that could be accepted as a reliable source at some point. You just need a staff, fact-checking and editorial policies, some time to develop a reputation... being part of a larger publishing organization never hurts, etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, so merely having a makeshift editorial staff is enough to render a blog completely usable, right? Tutelary (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

1. Moving the goalposts. You asked for proof of editorial control, I provided it. 2. The word "makeshift" needs a tag, because it's your unsourced and unsupported opinion. Not sure what it's supposed to mean in this context anyway. It has an editorial staff, same as Kotaku, Engadget, The Verge, Gizmodo, etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Not really, but it's interesting given your responses to certain sources but not others. Given you've been one of the main supporters of the present article, it's good to get your thoughts on what makes a certain source reliable but not others. So, editorial control = ultimately BLP compliant, plus a reliable source, even if it is a blog. - North. Got'cha. Will be researching sources based on this material. Thanks. Tutelary (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Remember that a key RS factor is a history of editorial control and fact checking. Jezabel's been around long enough to make that judgement call. Your hypothetical new blog with a new editoral staff will not (unless, for example, your editor in chief might have a previous well-established reputation. This was the case of Kotaku relatively recently when they brought Stephan Tolito on board who had a recognizable history of good editorial control). --MASEM (t) 19:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

We evaluate sources on a source-by-source basis; as Masem said, a new source can become considered an RS very quickly if it is run by a larger organization with a reputation and staffed by experienced journalists (such as The Verge or Polygon) and there are very old sources that have no chance of ever becoming an RS because of their structure and nature (DailyKos, RedState, etc.). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Isn't there a Misplaced Pages Policy for what counts a editorial control? Can't we use that? --86.140.193.247 (talk) 19:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

In this case Allaway is not a writer for Jezebel and this is obviously an opinion piece, which means our criteria should be based on her expertise. The Escapist describes her as a "student researcher" and she appears to be an undergraduate. While I applaud the young Miss Allaway on finding a way to hitch her wagons to this controversy to promote her school project, there is no reason why we should indulge this, even if the folks who own Kotaku decided to let her appropriate their megaphone to vent her rage at the people accusing their journalist of professional impropriety because some of them also spammed her open survey with junk responses.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I do agree that I don't think this is usable at this point (it's not unusable just because its on Jezebel, as being argued above, but there are other reasons it is unusable we should consider). But if a third-party points to this as an example of the effects of GG, then this can back up that source. --MASEM (t) 21:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, this subject heading is inappropriate. What's the point in starting a conversation about a source you think isn't usable in this article? Why this source in particular, when there are many published every day? As with your repeated comments about hypothetical future articles by Leigh Alexander being "dependant sources," when you do this it looks a lot like a preemptive strike, trying to shape the discussion on the usability of a source before anyone has even tried to use it at all. What's the harm in letting someone who actually wants to use the source down the line make an argument for it and respond to it then? -- TaraInDC (talk) 21:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm tracking sources that are out there that would otherwise fit RS standards that may be useful to the article. Just that on this one, my initial take is there's not much yet we can do with it. But if someone reads that and goes "hey we could include..." and start discussion for including, that's fine. This is exactly what talk pages are for. --MASEM (t) 23:12, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

This talkpage is full of unproductive arguing as it is: I see no benefit to starting conversations about how awful you think a particular source is when nobody has even found a use for it in the article. It's purely hypothetical at this point: we can't evaluate if a source is being used appropriately when nobody is trying to use it. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Talk pages full of arguments is tons better than edit warring, as long as it is always towards improvement (percieved or otherwise) of the article. As long as it's not beating a dead horse, it's valid for here. --MASEM (t) 22:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Vox article - "Angry misogyny is now the primary face of GamerGate"

Well, if the consensus of the reliable sources wasn't clear enough before... Angry misogyny is now the primary face of GamerGate, from Vox.

Late last week, after she posted links to a meme making fun of the #GamerGate movement on Twitter, game designer Brianna Wu had her personal information shared among supporters of the movement. Coupled with the endless stream of harassing tweets she had received in the wake of the memes and several that threatened specific acts of violence, it was enough to drive Wu from her home.

Unfortunately, this has become par for the course for the loose-knit #GamerGate movement. Ostensibly, it's a community of gamers who are concerned about ethically problematic relationships between independent game developers and the journalists who write about them. But in practice, the movement has mostly been about deplorable harassment and intimidation of critics — usually women — who dare to disagree with them. It has becoming a misogynistic mob masquerading as a social movement.

There are plenty of well-meaning, intelligent, thoughtful people within the #GamerGate movement, people who might not understand how journalism works 100 percent of the time, but also certainly don't bear ill will toward women. But the way #GamerGate keeps devolving into an incoherent, misogynistic rabble means those voices get choked out. As such, the movement is impossible to take seriously anymore.

Goes on to discuss the issues with it being an unidentifiable movement that becomes identified by its worst adherents, because it lacks any identifiable leadership or any means of steering it in productive directions.

Also a key quote: Instead, (GamerGate) began as an angry attack on Zoe Quinn, for the offenses of being young, female, outspoken, and sexual. This is another source flatly rejecting the claim that there was any wrongdoing by Quinn. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:35, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't actually add anything to the question of weight seeing as we already use Vox and it is not as distant from the controversy as other outlets that offer a less inflammatory take.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

There is between this and a few other pieces that have come out in light of the harassment against Wu as that there is an opinion that GG is a "hate mob" (note: a shared opinion, not a fact). But I'd like to see more that aren't as tight in the situation as sites like Vox are before adding that. --MASEM (t) 23:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's a better one from today from Business Insider - Video Gamers Are Having A Bizarre Debate Over Whether Sending Death Threats To Women Is A Serious Issue Or Not. Basically paints the death threats and angry rhetoric as the most visible part of #GamerGate to non-video game enthusiasts, or even as the only part that matters, and trivializes any journalism ethics concerns as the "video games journalism" field is a "niche" field that publishes "some pretty feeble stories posing as "news."". --PresN 04:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, at least someone recognises how laughable the industry's press is. Willhesucceed (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, no, it's not recognized as a hate mob if BBC Radio, Forbes, Slate, Techcrunch, Reason, Al Jazeera, etc. don't recognise it as such.

When Jezebel's on your side, you know you're in the wrong. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"When a woman-focused media outlet agrees with you (and with a majority of reliable sources) about what is widely regarded as a misogynistic harassment campaign know you're in the wrong!" This says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else, I hope you're aware of that. Have you forgotten that one of the biggest gamergate supporters writes for Breitbart.com?

The media is waffling less and less in their descriptions of gamergate, probably because it's two months later and there is still no evidence that it's anything other than an angry mob. Our article needs to start reflecting that fact. -- TaraInDC (talk) 14:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly what are you proposing? Are you saying that the article should mention that and extreme feminist outlet claims gamergate is a hatemob? If you are saying that the article should include the fact that feminists groups and SJW are making wild unsubstantiated hate filled claims, then yes... maybe that should be included as a sister article?`Because that ios what it is -- it is just feminists making wild claims they have no proof of. If you are referring to the actual incident that spiked the new hatred coming from these outlets, then it isn't reliable. There has been no proof that the troll was actually part of Gamergate or even that the incident actually happened.--Thronedrei (talk) 15:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that some have called it a "hate mob" (including these articles, as well as Quinn and Alexander) is unavoidable. We just have to present it as an opinion, not fact. (And some of these other articles have pointed out that if proGG wants to be taken seriously by mainstream sources, they would have come out against the harassment and distanced themselves from it long ago, but it hasn't happened, leading many journalists to believe that the claims made by proGGers aren't legit; even if the Wu harassment wasn't GG connected , the lack of condemnation to it is why many sources are becoming more dismissive of the proGG side) --MASEM (t) 15:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The point is, "Angry misogyny is now the primary face of GamerGate" is the mainstream point-of-view of this topic much as "Obama was really born in Hawaii" is the primary angle of Birthergate. There are secondary, bordering on fringe, points-of-view within each topic, but they are not given equal weight or footing. Tarc (talk) 15:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, no. This point is a significant view, but it is not clearly established as the mainstream view. It's too significant to ignore, but we can't adopt that view as the only one (all others being Fringe from that logic) as it's not yet clear that all current reliable sources are running on that idea. --MASEM (t) 15:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, yes. As noted above, as media outlets far removed from game journalism pick up on the matter, this is what they are noting. You can't fight the tide forever, I'm afraid. Tarc (talk) 15:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You have to stay more neutral. Vox is not "far removed", and Business Insider is far from sourcing like Washington Post, LA Times, or the New Yorker. It needs to be a prevailing factor across more sources to make that the key thought. Until then, this is a significant but not the only view. --MASEM (t) 15:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

BBC Radio Business Matters

Engadget guy specifically attributes the harassment to internet culture, not gaming culture.

Woman says corruption/ethics/professionalism concerns are valid. "The journalistic ethics in the coverage of games are really, really something to be worried about."

Wu's thing is connected to Gamergate, somehow, despite lack of any evidence.

The rest is old hat.

It starts at about 17:00. http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/business/business_20141014-0100a.mp3

Willhesucceed (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I see GamerGate is gathering attention from really mainstream places, MSNBC did a interview with two antiGG people which couldn't be more one-sided if they tried but, well. While the BBC stream was kinda neutral Loganmac (talk) 09:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

So, between this and Slate talking about Twitter and Forbes, we seem to have a question as to whether this is caused by gaming culture or internet culture. That seems worthy of inclusion. Willhesucceed (talk) 10:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Indiecade in the limelight of GG

. Not sure what can be included immediately from it, but it highlights the indie scene in light of the GG controversy. --MASEM (t) 06:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's the same thing over and over again. Maybe if it mentioned the IGF/IndieCade scandal lol Loganmac (talk) 10:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 October 2014

This edit request to Gamergate controversy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Edit the phrase "...developer Zoe Quinn was subjected to after an ex-boyfriend posted numerous allegations on his blog in August 2014, including that she had"

Should be "...allegations on her blog" 101.113.4.114 (talk) 07:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It was posted on Gjoni's blog, so "his" is correct. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Harassment of supporters of Gamergate

We finally have enough sources to note this, I think.

Techcrunch:

Since I wrote my initial draft, reports have emerged of increasingly worrying attacks on GamerGate supporters. A friendly reporter had a suspicious syringe sent to his house. There have been real-life threats. People have received intimidating phonecalls and text messages from complete strangers. An academic who supports GamerGate was doxxed and received a violent threat. Major games publications have yet to report on these attacks against their consumers.

Reason:

The TFYC hacking was just one of many disturbing incidents directed at GamerGate supporters. In late September, there was a "doxxing"—net-speak for public release of private information—directed at six prominent GamerGate supporters including Yiannopoulous and Baldwin, with their "crimes" listed alongside their home addresses. Yiannopoulous also received a jiffy bag in the mail containing a syringe. Oliver Campbell, a black male videogame journalist, has written about being harassed and threatened on Twitter after he spoke out in support of GamerGate.

A young female gamergater who wanted to be identified only as Lizzy F.—she says there have been attempts to hack into her email and Twitter account—wrote to me in an email that she has experienced a stream of harassment:

'I have been told to drop dead on multiple occasions, and received a threat of "I hope your windows are secure." The last statement was sent from someone who also threatened to release the home address of another female supporter. I have been called a gender traitor, a "token," all off the female derogatory slurs in the book, and even had my "woman card" revoked, somehow.'

Most hurtful, Lizzy says, was the accusation of "internalized misogyny" and tweets dismissing her as a male troll posing as a female. Like many other women involved in GamerGate, Lizzy had to resort to posting a photo as proof of her womanhood.

Slate:

Consequently, harassment has also been directed in return at GamerGate supporters themselves, who at this point endure constant doxing and torment of their own members; hashtag searches makes finding harassment targets easy. An unfailingly civil university professor who supported GamerGate on Twitter was doxed, told she was a “self hating fucker,” and warned that if she didn’t stop posting, “its time to just shove something metal and sharp in the closed up cunt of yours and twist.” Another anonymous woman was simply told, “I know where you live know who your family is. Stop posting about #gamergate.” Such occurrences are now commonplace.

Forbes:

abuse goes both ways. According to some #GamerGate is the tech world’s version of ISIS, the resurgent Middle-Eastern militant group responsible for things like killing and beheading innocent people. I’ve spoken with writers who claim to have been blacklisted for showing support for the movement.

Willhesucceed (talk) 11:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I think that it would be a mistake to do a section specifically on harassment of GG supporters, but I don't have a problem with an "Online harassment" section that covers (briefly) events from all perspectives. Harassment continues to be an issue - mostly from GG supporters, but also to them, so including this in the coverage as an ongoing concern makes sense. - Bilby (talk) 11:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There's little to no proof the harassment isn't from trolls. The few who have threatened anyone under the tag have been reported by Gamergate supporters. But the sources don't report that. I wonder why. It can't be because "women under attack by nerds!" makes a great story. Willhesucceed (talk) 11:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

oh poor poor poor gamergaters first people ignore their claims of conflict of interest because they are harassing. now people ignore their claims of harassment. its sooooooo horrible to be such an oppressed minority! what WP:SYSTEMICBIAS !!!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

In the same sense, there's little or no proof that the attacks on GG supporters are not from trolls - the lack of formal membership criteria makes it difficult to know who anyone is. All we can report is that harassment is occurring, both to GamerGate supporters and to people who have spoken against GamerGate, if we want to take that path. - Bilby (talk) 12:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, a section devoted to the online harassment is probably best. Willhesucceed (talk) 12:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

We can definitely have a section for discussing the general harassment of both sides and its implications.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I support the creation of such a section, though not without the awareness that this would be about the documentation of shit-slinging against both sides.

A section on this has been needed for a lot of time. Are there any sources yet on Boogie2988, JonTron, Eron getting doxxed and Milo Yiannopoulos getting a syringe sent to his house? I really stopped looking Loganmac (talk) 08:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

GameJournoPros

Not a single mention of this on the page, despite all these sources.

Pocketgamer, China Topix, tportal, Bright Side, Ars Technica, Forbes, bitgamer, recode, Erik Kain and other industry members

NorthBySouthBaranof previously claimed Chinatopix got "basic facts" wrong and should be excluded on that basis, but the coverage is a valid interpretation of events, they just haven't been reported by other places. You can double-check for yourself. Just because a publication approaches a topic from another perspective, as most of the Asian sources do, doesn't mean it's disallowable, especially when used in conjunction with other sources to note only those things relevant to the topic.

Let's decide what should be included and what shouldn't. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with GameJournoPros is that this borders on BLP (it is an unfounded claim/inference about the actions of known living persons, something I checked on at BLP/N and was told better to leave this out). It's contribution to the overall GG story is very minor since I see little of the present proGG stuff pointing to that to say that is an ethics problem. --MASEM (t) 14:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

BLP problems can't be solved by phrasing it as perception? Diego below says there was no agreement on the issue of whether it should be omitted from the article. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Considering that there's little attempt to keep this page neutral despite the token cries for neutrality, I sadly doubt that these multiple sources will amount to anything at all. This page is already infamous for its partiality, and is obviously one of the bigger battlegrounds of the whole thing. Especially considering pro-GG sources are constantly questioned where as long as the anti side doesn't link Gawker or something it is accepted readily.Tupin (talk) 14:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The list was included at the article at one point, and was later removed because one editor opposed it based on the sources available then. Now that we have more independent reliable sources covering it, it should be included again. As for Masem's query at the BLP noticeboard, there was one editor commenting that it shouldn't be included, and other thinking that it could, so it doesn't set any precedent. Diego (talk) 15:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Your memory is faulty. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. You may want to read what I wrote instead of making personal attacks. Diego (talk) 16:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You said that there was 'one editor commenting that it shouldn't be included.' I see a lot more than one editor in that section expressing concerns about including breitbart.com's accusations. Your statement that only one editor opposed its inclusion is patently false. The sourcing for is also still weak, just as it was then: we don't seem to have any independant investigation, only a few minor industry outlets reporting on the accusations published on a site that is best known for publishing outright lies. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I said that there was 'one editor commenting that it shouldn't be included' in Masem's query at the BLP noticeboard. The only editor at that board against inclusion is User:John; meanwhile, User:Stuartyeates thought that it could be published if it's covered in independent reliable sources. Please consider asking for clarification when you don't understand why a comment has been made, before resorting to insulting fellow editors. Diego (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I see, I quoted the wrong section of your post: you said the information "was later removed because one editor opposed it based on the sources available then." That's not true, and saying so minimizes the past opposition to this information's inclusion. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As mandated by WP:DUE, it deserves a place in the article. Tutelary (talk) 15:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No actual collusion actually took place, this is a thoroughly debunked meme. There's no need to repeat every scurrilous and half-baked cover story the "pro-GG" people have concocted to cover their misdeeds here. Tarc (talk) 15:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The collusion has never been fully debunked (but that's not saying it is true either), and for that reason, as simply a claim of it, we should really not include as per the BLPN discussion even if we could. If it was dunked, then inclusion should be apparent, just like the allegation against Quinn. --MASEM (t) 15:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There are various ways to cover this in a BLP-safe way. We have several reliable sources noting that the leak of mails happened, and that it led to several proGGs to consider it as an explanation of the early "media radio-silence", and to Kyle Orland to publish an explanation at Ars Technica. Diego (talk) 16:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it has been fully debunked. A wild accusation was made, a person quite rationally explained that, no, this is what the e-mail list is really for, and the accuser and associated unreliable sourced that initially mirrored it went silent. This is a dead-end issue. Tarc (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If there are multiple high quality reliable secondary sources which present the content, then it can be added according to due weight. It would certainly help if someone interested in adding the content would highlight which are the 2-3 highest quality sources, along with excerpts covering the issue. aprock (talk) 15:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is there aren't. We have a few articles which are relatively low-quality sources, and they're all reporting on accusations which have gotten no real traction and which originate from a media outlet best known for making things up to attempt to discredit political opponents. We need much, much stronger sources which we can rely on to evaluate the situation properly and give it exactly the credit it deserves before we give Breitbart.com's accusations a place in Misplaced Pages. -- TaraInDC (talk) 15:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

So, you consider an article published under the auspices of Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher to be a low quality source? Diego (talk) 16:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I consider the sourcing we have here too weak to justify mentioning these accusations in the article, yes. You'll not that that is only a source for the fact that the accusations were made: it doesn't in any way indicate that they have any merit. I'm not doubting that Milo made unfounded accusations - I know he did - what I'm saying is that by including them here when they've been given only cursory attention by reliable sources we would be violating WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP. We have decent sources for the fact that Milo made an unfounded accusation, but we have very, very weak sources that support the notion that these accusations are noteworthy enough to merit inclusion. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Please inform us of something that is not clear from your interventions: what level of sourcing would make you accept that this incident has strong enough sources for including it? Because I definitely want to apply that very same criteria to the numerous opinions currently included in the article. Diego (talk) 16:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

High profile mainstream sourcing is going to garner the most support; Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, The National Review, LA Times, New York Times, etc. Of the sources listed above, only the Forbes one seems likely to gather broad support. Again, it's not about something being clear or WP:TRUE, it's about gathering consensus for inclusion. If you use niche publications that editors have never heard of, then the likelihood they are going be widely supported it as a source is fairly low, especially for anything which approaches WP:BLP requirements. For better or worse, that's how wikipedia works. aprock (talk) 16:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I should add that it is very rare for opinion pieces to be considered reliable for much beyond the authors own personal opinion (see WP:OPINION). As such, they should almost always be avoided in controversial articles like this one. aprock (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

One last note, the above sourcing guidelines relate to inclusion of a topic as per WP:DUE weight. Once something has been deemed of sufficient weight for inclusion (based on high quality mainstream sourcing), then other less high profile sources can be used, guided by WP:DUE weight as determined by the high quality sources. Said another way, Kotaku can't be used to establish enough weight for inclusion, but if the New York Times makes reference to a Kotaku article, then it can be used as a citation. aprock (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That leads me to conclude what other editors have already commented at this talk page, that the amount of personal opinions currently appearing in the article have been given undue weight and should be reduced.

As of now, we're giving any op-ed by a particular journalist the same weight that we give to main events, which does not make for a balanced article. The article should give more emphasis to the events that have been reflected at several independent venues, and less to the commentary on those events by single journalists in their opinion columns; unless one particular opinion has been itself collected by other media and identified as significant by other independent sources, it should be taken elsewhere. Diego (talk) 17:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You hit in on the nose. There are sections that are just "here's some opinions", and because opinions are going to be extensively available from one side and not from the other by the nature of this controversy, this simply is overkill on getting the point across. "GG is seen as a bad thing by numerous people" is necessary and unavoidable to state, but not to the degree that the point is hammered over and over. --MASEM (t) 17:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I'm an unrepentant inclusionist, I'm not fond of completely removing content that is sourced to reliable sources; I usually prefer to find it a better place when it's deemed irrelevant to a particular topic. I was thinking that it's time to WP:SPLIT this already long article upon the axis of factual vs opinion, creating Reactions to GamerGate. I think there are enough sources describing the nature of those reactions to make that subtopic a notable one, where those single-person opinions would actually be on-topic and not too much detail, in the way they're too detailed for this main article now. The current article could be made into a timeline of sourced facts and highly influential reactions (like those by Alexander or maybe Hoff Sommers, which have other journalists commenting on them), which IMHO would be much more neutral. This would also leave place at the main article to grow from the more in-depth, long-term analysis of the significance of the whole incident that are likely to happen in the future, without requiring us to delete the current content. What do you think? Diego (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

We do not need to fork anything off like this just to "eliminate the bias" on this article.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

This is the beginning attempt at a WP:POVFORK. Tarc (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

In addition, "Reaciton to" articles are WP:QUOTEFARMs, and not appropriate encyclopedic material. --MASEM (t) 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Removing undue comments it is, then. Diego (talk) 22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not a BLP issue to talk about a mailing list. We have multiple reliable sources discussing this and it only seems apt to include a mention of it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As above, which are the 2-3 most reliable mainstream sources mentioning it? If none (or one) are, then it's difficult to see how it should be included. aprock (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe Pocketgamer, Re/code, and Forbes are the best sources in the mix.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Of those, only the Forbes one appears to be a mainstream source, and even that is a "Games" column. As it only deals with the email list, it's hard to use it to establish due weight. Based on those sources, it's hard to see covering the topic in any sort of detail. aprock (talk) 22:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"Some games journalists discussed, among other things, GamerGate, on a private mailing list." That's a mention. It doesn't say much, but that's about all there is to say about it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yahoo News on Twitter's role in GG

stating that Twitter could take tech measures to help prevent the harassment but hasn't/doesn't compared to Facebook. I believe there was an earlier piece someone else posted that was about Twitter that included GG's impact, so there's possibly a point here. --MASEM (t) 14:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That's the Slate article, linked under BBC Radio Matters. It seems we should acknowledge how the online nature of this controversy has shaped it, in a more cohesive fashion than a few scattered sentences. Maybe a paragraph somewhere, if we can find enough sources. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Also Businessweek now . --MASEM (t) 14:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Brianna Wu sources

BBC News: GamerGate: 'Press must tackle misogyny,' says developer - "GamerGate could very seriously drive most women out of the industry. I realise that's a very strong statement and I absolutely mean it. I don't know a single woman in this field who is not asking herself if she wants to stay."

Vice: Does someone have to actually die before GamerGate calms down? - "GamerGate, to date, has taught us nothing. OK, maybe it's taught us that certain men are horrible and have no shame in announcing their hatred of women to the world in the most hideous manner available to them. If GamerGate really was about ethics, Wu or Sarkeesian wouldn't be going through what they are."

Vox:

MSNBC:

The Boston Globe:

All of this relies pretty much on her word alone, it should a mention but the coverage it got it's amazing for a obscure designer/programmer Loganmac (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Brianna Wu paragraphs

After commenting on Twitter about the GamerGate controversy, mocking GamerGate supporters as misogynistic trolls, game developer Brianna Wu was doxed on an Internet discussion board used by GamerGate supporters, including her home address. Subsequently, she received detailed, specific and graphic threats of sexual violence against her and her family, leading her to flee her home. Wu said the threats, coupled with those received by Quinn and Sarkeesian, demonstrated that GamerGate is little more than an angry mob bent on silencing women in video games. "GamerGate could very seriously drive most women out of the industry. I realise that's a very strong statement and I absolutely mean it. I don't know a single woman in this field who is not asking herself if she wants to stay," Wu said.

Writing in Vice, Mike Diver said that while the threats don't represent the viewpoint of everyone involved in GamerGate, many in the movement have attempted to downplay the threats, blame them on Wu or even claim that she made them up. Vox writer Todd VanDerWerff linked the threats against Wu with those made against Quinn and Sarkeesian, stating that GamerGate has a history of targeting women with abuse in an attempt to shut down debate. He said GamerGate supporters interested in discussing journalism ethics have been repeatedly drowned out and marginalized by the movement's "incoherent, misogynistic rabble" leaving GamerGate with little credibility. "The problem with the movement, then, is that it's unable to transcend its horrible roots to have actual discussions. It's clear by now that most #GamerGate supporters simply don't care if they share a movement with hardcore misogynists," he said.

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

i dont think a full section on Wu is appropriate. this is not a "list of women harassed under the auspices of gamergate hashtag" (although if we are going to consider the silly Reactions to GamerGate as a possibility, the list qualifies under the equal validity.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest it would be a full section area, but it certainly deserves a couple paragraphs. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

One paragraph, maybe. One short paragraph. Willhesucceed (talk) 19:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Where are the sources? Tutelary (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

They're linked above. One of these days, Wikimedia will come up with a decent way of doing inline sources on talk pages. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, can't see them. Also, I think I can agree with Willhesucceed. You can probably summarise her harassment and link it to the other cases in a single paragraph. Just have to find were to put it. --86.151.133.230 (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Read #Brianna Wu sources FFS.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the first sentence is good. The problem with the second sentence is that, as far as I know, this is only about one account making threats and that should be made clear. However, that second paragraph is lopsided. The fact you seem to like the Vox article so much is a pretty good indicator.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

One sentence is all that is needed. The suggested paragraphs shows more of the problems with flooding this article with antiGG quotes when we don't have to keep pounding the nail that the media see the proGG side as bad. There are other factors stemming for articles on Wu that lead to other issues, but we don't need to connect them to Wu. --MASEM (t) 22:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

While I agree we should not be pushing in so many quotations, the Brianna Wu situations deserves a lot more than a single sentence. For some reason that I don't entirely understand, this particular incident appears to be the one that is taking this well outside the enthusiast press.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Speculation of the three (Quinn, Sarkenstan, and Wu), she is the one that is most approachable and distant from the initial issues, and so the sudden harassment was seemingly out of nowhere (she retweeted some image macros and that appeared to be the thing that set some off against her). It is that reaction that is getting more attention (why there are sources now calling out this as a hate mob), and not so much about Wu's involvement itself. --MASEM (t) 00:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

She did quite a bit more than that, but BLP rules have caught my tongue. I too am bemused at the attention Wu's getting. I think it's a case of Intel's pulling from Gamasutra making the issue more notable, Quinn not being particularly sympathetic, and Sarkeesian's apparent desire to want to stick to the sidelines. Willhesucceed (talk) 01:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Vox Media owns Polygon. Are we relying on Vox and its subsidiaries too heavily?

Vox Media owns Polygon, one of the sites which ran the "Death of Gamers" slew and whose members were on the GameJournoPros list. Considering that they have a financial interest in making GamerGate go away (Polygon has lost advertisers from GamerGate email campaigns), should we really use them as 8 (2 Vox, 5 Verge, 1 Polygon found in a cursory glance. I'm sure there's more) of the 75 citations?--ArmyLine (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No. Stop pulling conflicts of interest out of your ass.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

And also, this is premature and unwarranted.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Per the latest GamerGate "campaign" they are at war with the following: Kotaku; Polygon; Destructoid; Rock, Paper, Shotgun; The Escapist; Motherboard; IGN; GameSpot; Gamasutra; Gameranx; PCGamer.com; Xbox 360: The Official Xbox Magazine; Total Xbox; Gameplanet; Gizmodo; TechCrunch; Ars Technica; VICE; The Daily Dot; Badass Digest; The Daily Beast; Raw Story; The Mary Sue; Salon; BuzzFeed; Uproxx; Paste Magazine; Wired; The New Yorker; Cracked; Mic; xoJane; The Verge; Gawker; Valleywag; Defamer; Lifehacker; Deadspin; Screamer; io9; Sploid; Jalopnik; Paging Dr. NerdLove; RationalWiki; TV Tropes

I would say this does not block any of them from being seen as a potential source of RSs. TV Tropes may be difficult to squeeze in though. Artw (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"Every single major media outlet is biased against us. Therefore, you can't use any of those major media outlets as sources in our article." Quite. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I make a simple observation and I get swore at and attacked for it by the two heaviest editors of this article. No wonder this article is such a hit piece.--ArmyLine (talk) 22:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe someone other than Ryu should comment on this?Tupin (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you two need to stop drinking the koolaid and instead acknowledge quality over quantity.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"Drinking the koolaid"? Like there's some widespread "far-right" misinformation campaign brainwashing people? Horseshoe theory proves itself again.--ArmyLine (talk) 05:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

No. What I'm saying is that you lot need to stop attacking me over the number of edits I've made to this article and its talk page as has been done to me off site by any idiot gater who thinks the mere volume of edits I've made to this page out of the hundreds of thousands of edits I've made elsewhere across the project means anything here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what part of my statement could possibly constitute an "attack." I observed that you are, once again, raising the umpteen-times-rejected idea that GamerGate campaigning against a source makes the source invalid, unreliable or otherwise unusable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

And non-gaming sources like Forbes have a financial interest in finding new audiences. It's capitalism, and financial interests happen. Luckily, our reliable source guidelines care more about reputations for fact-checking and accuracy. Woodroar (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Utah Terror Threat

Anita Sarkeesian Cancels Speech Following Terror Threats Artw (talk) 01:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Polygon too, suspect we'll have a local paper on it within 12hrs. Already creating strong opinions on the vg writer side, waiting to see the larger response. --MASEM (t) 02:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Salt Lake Tribune. --MASEM (t) 03:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Forbes, Ars Technica, Southern California Public Radio, Logan Herald-Journal (the local paper for Utah State University's college town). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's the original article, which states "the threat didn’t cite #GamerGate, but it’s just one example of the tone that’s appeared online since the hashtag appeared weeks ago." Kind of curious about the process in which the demonstrably factitious insertion of "I admit that it is unrelated but I'm just gonna stick it in here anyway" telephones into "directly related and worthy of incorporation". Perhaps it's related to the processing of sausage.--ArmyLine (talk) 05:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope. That's exactly what secondary sources do — they take primary sources, analyze and synthesize. We can't do that ourselves on Misplaced Pages (per WP:OR), but we can certainly quote secondary sources that do it.

Moreover, as per reliable sources, Anita has since stated that at least one of the threats directly referenced GamerGate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm curious what your yardstick is for a "reliable source" and why VentureBeat is one but Brietbart isn't.ArmyLine (talk) 06:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Neither are. aprock (talk) 06:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd call VentureBeat a great source, but unlike Breitbart, it doesn't have a reputation for publishing half-truths, misinterpretations, outright falsehoods and literal fabrications when necessary to suit its explicitly-ideological goals.

But I'm not sure why you're bringing up VentureBeat because I'm not citing VentureBeat, I'm citing Ars Technica, the Logan Herald-Journal, Forbes, The Deseret News, etc. When someone makes threats of an anti-feminist massacre at a major public university, you're gonna get some mainstream coverage, as this has. We don't even need the VentureBeat story, honestly. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

What does this have to with GamerGate? Loganmac (talk) 08:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Read the sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

it's on CNN now.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

In the morning wave of news stories, these threats against Sarkeesian have been explicitly tied to Gamergate by, among others, the Washington Post, The Guardian, KSL, the Salt Lake Tribune. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeesh, just when you think this couldn't get any uglier... This certainly puts the kibosh on the "poor souls just concerned about journalism ethics" bit ,at any rate. Tarc (talk) 12:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

We just need to make sure when this is added we don't get anywhere close to being critical of gun laws (which I've seen floated around in some sources). Somethink like "Sarkeenian cancelled a speaking engagement at ASU after the school received a threat of a shooting massacre if she were allowed to speak, and the school was unable to assure her safety." --MASEM (t) 14:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we have to be critical of gun laws, but yeah, we can mention the exact reason why she cancelled it — that the university was unable to assure Sarkeesian that guns wouldn't be allowed in the speaking venue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Given that the university in question is an unrelated party in all this, I think it would be nice to note precisely why they would not do that, i.e. that gun laws prohibit them from doing such things.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is relevant to this thread as it was published just days before the threats were announced.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

WAPost "Summary to date" article

This might be good to replace any sources that have been claimed as "biased" as it tries to give a fair shake to the proGG side (though reflecting that much of the media sees that as a mess). --MASEM (t) 04:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

It also provides a secondary source for Jennifer Allaway's research — In fact, thousands of Gamergate supporters on 8chan recently passed around a demographic survey on the gaming industry, put together by the researcher Jennifer Allaway; but alas, most of the responses contained only irrelevant (and telling!) messages, like “kill yourself.” NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

#StopGamerGate2014

The Daily Dot becomes the first source to examine the backlash-hashtag #StopGamerGate2014 that was launched in the wake of the mass-murder threats against Sarkeesian and Utah State University. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's blacklisted from Misplaced Pages, too. Funny how that commitment to reliable sources lapses from time to time.--ArmyLine (talk) 05:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Uhhh, no, The Daily Dot isn't blacklisted. If it was blacklisted, the link wouldn't even show up here. We use other The Daily Dot work as sources for this article already, actually. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

However, it is a weak source. Let's wait for a better one on this. --MASEM (t) 05:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's not banned as of now. It might have been a year ago when I tried to add a link. It's still worth observing that the commitment to reliable sources espoused by the frequent editors to this page wanes in the face of tenuous criticism of the subject.--ArmyLine (talk) 05:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

We are at a point here where it is very valid to review earlier sources and consider if they are really necessary or appropriate in light of more recent, more mainstream sources (see my point about the latest WAPost above); later sources will have a better hindsight view to help balance the coverage appropriately. That's why I think going on we have to be very hesistant about using "weak" sources like Daily Dot (It's fine for less controversial topics, but not here). Note that I don't think within 48hr we'll lack a good quality source for this current hashtag... --MASEM (t) 05:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Well I bet this counts as a "good quality source".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

As I said, within 48hrs I figured we'd have some; that, and a new WAPost one (separate from the summary above), and a Metro.uk... --MASEM (t) 14:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The hashtag's pretty much already dead. Gamergate deniers don't seem to have much commitment to their ideals. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is it? How can you tell? If it is dead then maybe we can add it in that there was another counter-hashtag that died. --86.169.65.31 (talk) 15:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

There are sites that map Twitter hashtags. It turns out I was wrong. It was dead as of a few hours ago. It's back at the moment, and centred on New York ... and the Philippines. I'll leave that to speculation. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

read: the earth turns, there's timezones and now the western world is waking up to flood social media again. We'd have to wait days to determine its' "death". --MASEM (t) 15:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

So... Check back in a week then? --86.169.65.31 (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Other sources for this: Kotaku, Christian Science Monitor, The New York Times, Forbes. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 October 2014

This edit request to Gamergate controversy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This should probably be set to reflect that it's affected by current events, given the threat at Utah State University (or at least some acknowledgement of the sort). Lucas "nicatronTg" Nicodemus (talk) 06:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

 Not done the purpose of that tag is for a currently breaking story. we are not going to "current event" everytime gamergaters send a death threat to another woman, otherwise it would never leave. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks! Lucas "nicatronTg" Nicodemus (talk) 06:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Possible sources for a gamergate opinions

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12391-Glaive-GamerGate-Interview They're quite hard to find since most sites have largely been opposed to it, so I thought it'd be worth posting this one as possible it could be useful as a source.Halfhat (talk) 08:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I don't want to make separate sections for them so I'll post anyother possible sources here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29616197 this one covers some for and against, as well as what going on with Brainna Wu.Halfhat (talk) 08:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Escapist did a whole bunch of interviews like that, but because of various issues surrounding them (that they did a similar series with female devs a few months back but all the devs there stayed anonymous; that they have had to pull a few of the interviews when they were found to be overly proGG, etc.) that we should avoid those. --MASEM (t) 14:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikileaks acknowledges GamerGate

I know this is primary source and twitter, but as a enourmous notable organization can this get a mention?

"Journalistic organisation WikiLeaks recognized GamerGate 'found out media is corrupt'" Or something like that? Loganmac (talk) 08:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't see a problem if it is posted as an opinion, it's a verified account. I'm just a n00b though. If you want a secondary source what about this? http://www.newstatesman.com/media-mole/2014/09/wikileaks-wades-gamergate-says-nato-corrupt-video-games-journalism Halfhat (talk) 08:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC) Edit: It doesn't refer to that tweet in particular but does show the same sort of position.Halfhat (talk) 09:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Hasn't the results of the AMA been constantly thrown out because of the wispy washy nature of the question posed and the answer given? I don't see why we need to mention that the website backs them up in any fashion when it solely revolves around the claims of censorship happening when people are getting banned for violations the terms of services of the forums where they are claiming it is happening.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I saw that, and read through the linked article, and found zero mention of GG. We're not going off one tweet to say there's support. --MASEM (t) 14:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 October 2014

This edit request to Gamergate controversy has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article is in no way objective and is clearly editorialized. I suggest deleting this page and starting over.

122.210.183.62 (talk) 10:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This is neither a valid nor an uncontroversial request that can be handled by this template.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

How about you start rewriting it, then submit your work? I think the problem is that it was a bit of a websites vs the users situation, and the websites are much easier to source than the users.Halfhat (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Basic Lack of Explanation

I clicked to this article to get a basic understanding of what a news report meant when it called someone a "Gamergate critic," and after reading the entire article, I'm still confused as to what "Pro-gamergate" or "we in GamerGate" means or really even what a "GamerGater" is. I think this means the article is missing a very basic explanation in the intro section, probably because everyone editing the article has that knowledge, and possibly because it's hard to explain. I'm getting a fuzzy understanding that GamerGaters are critical of people who are critical of misogyny in gaming, is that correct? Obviously this is not something I can fix <g>, so I thought I'd bring it up here. EDIT TO ADD: Actually, maybe I can fix it...I could add as a final sentence to the first paragraph of the intro, "GamerGaters" are gamers who are critical of people who make accusations of misogyny in gaming." Then someone who understands the issue more clearly than I can come along and fix it. But that would require two protected edit requests, eh? I'm happy to make the first if no one objects. valereee (talk) 12:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

There simply is no clear cut definition of what all of this is, which is why it is referred to as a controversy rather than a social movement. And, your definition is actually incorrect as far as I can discern. "Gamergaters" want better ethics in video game journalism, while those contra to them believe it is a conservativistic backlash against diversity in video games and those who play them when they factor in the misogyny, harassment, and death threats sent to public women in video gaming, which in turn prompted the development of a side movement that goes "we're women, gays, not-whites, etc. who play video games and want ethics in journalism".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is locked, so there's no way we can add such basic clarifications and fix it; we should hang our heads in shame of the poor work done. Is there a way we can start it all over again and get a smaller version which actually explains what happens and only contains content we can all agree with? (BTW, Recode has a basic vocabulary definition, we could use that to explain the jargon). Diego (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

(E/c)some gamergaters want what they claim to be "better ethics in video game journalism" but when you drill into the specifics of their issues is essentially that they do not want journalists to cover any cultural aspects of games or to cover games that do not fit traditional high end corporate video games. the loudest aspects using the gamergate hashtag merely use that pretense as coordinating effort to harass women.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong/TRPoD, but there has to be SOME basic understanding in the heads of people who use the term "GamerGater" of what it is they're trying to convey. Does it mean someone who is in FAVOR of those critical of ethics in video game journalism? Those opposed to accusations of misogyny in video games? It's somewhere in there. We can't find some agreement on what the term even MEANS? Diego Moya, instead of starting all over again, perhaps a new page, "GamerGater" which tries to simply define what that means? Not explain the controversy -- just discuss what it means when someone says they support or oppose GamerGate. valereee (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with describing it is that it's a leaderless anonymous identity movement with the only barrier to entry being the ability to type a hashtag into Twitter. So, as reliable sources have put it... while there are a number of people using it who genuinely believe there are problems with video games journalism, there are also a number of people using it whose intent is to harass women into silence. As TRPoD mentioned, the "problems" in journalism that have been mentioned are, at best, vague and ill-defined except that they don't like the fact that some outlets publish reviews by ostensible-"SJWs" which include social criticism of video games. I've heard a few say, incoherently, that what they want is "objective reviews" of games — which is literally a contradiction in terms. So it's always going to be really complex, but I agree we can do a better job than what we've got. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess I just feel like throwing up our hands and saying "Not only can no one explain this, we can't even come to terms of agreement on DEFINITIONS" is...dismaying.  :) Even if the explanation has to be something like, "Supporters of "Gamergate" are variously described either as misogynists reacting to feminist criticism of video games or as critics of journalistic ethics within the video game reporting field." With appropriate sourcing, of course. I mean, there has to be SOME statement that can be made that can at least frame what people mean when they call themselves or someone else a GamerGater. So that when newbs come in, they at least have a hook to hang the term on. valereee (talk) 14:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

'Supporters of "Gamergate" have generally been described as misogynists reacting to feminist criticism of video games or as critics of journalistic ethics within the video game industry's press." That's a great suggestion, as it makes the two major issues/camps clear for newcomers. I tweaked it slightly. Thank you very much for joining the discussion on this page. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) Its not up to us to create a coherent rationale for gamergaters because they have been unable to do so for themselves. We report what the reliably published sources say and what they say is: "gameragate is a harassment campaign that has a vague un-articulated set of complaints that mostly are we dont like that gamers are being called sexist and it is our complaints that should be given priority and coverage and not the concerns about the death threats issued under our name - the harassment doesnt count." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, it's not up to us to create the rationale, but we can state what the mainstream press is saying about both ends of the spectrum. valereee (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

again, right from the lead: "Although these concerns proved unfounded,(8a) allegations about journalistic ethics continued to clash with allegations of harassment and misogyny.(10) Other topics of debate have included perceived changes or threats to the "gamer" identity as a result of the ongoing maturation and diversification of the gaming industry. ... This opposition, however, has often been expressed in the form of personal harassment of female figures in the industry rather than constructive cultural conversations.(10)(12) The harassment campaign against Quinn was of such ferocity as to attract significant mainstream media attention which focused on the sexist, misogynistic and trolling elements within the gamer community. Allegations of impropriety in gaming media have prompted policy changes at several outlets, and commentators generally agree that systemic problems in the gaming media need to be discussed; however, the harassment and misogyny associated with Gamergate is seen as having poisoned the well.(10 12 15) Furthermore, the choice to focus the campaign on a heretofore relatively obscure independent developer rather than AAA publishers has led to questions about its motivations.(14 15)" Are you sure you are reading our article ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, yes, I'm reading your article.  :) All that doesn't tell me which of these two elements is "Pro-GG" which is what brought me here in the first place and which seems very basic to understanding any discussion of the issue. valereee (talk) 15:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no real description of "pro-GG" or "anti-GG" unless it's something being said by someone who defines themselves as "pro-GG". The article describes that the Gamergate movement wants to discuss issues of ethics in video games journalism. The article goes on to also describe that there are many who believe that the movement is a vague justification for continuing gamers' propensity to attack women and outsiders, considering that the focus has been spent on independent games and their developers (who tend to be women) rather than the big name studios that have the financial means to actually produce conflicts of interest that do not revolve around accusations of who has had sex with who.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

For instance, the post just following this one mentions an article where the "Writer is sympathetic with the proGG side" so clearly that's something those editing this article understand as a shorthand for...what? valereee (talk) 15:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

as per the Guardian, ( in the Guardian's voice and not an opinion piece ) "Ostensibly a campaign against corruption in journalism but in practice a grassroots attack on feminist critics in gaming" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

BBC Business Matters, Reason, Techcrunch, Forbes, Slate and others disagree with you on that. Willhesucceed (talk) 14:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

As others have pointed out, there is no clear cut, unbiased definition of what GamerGate is out there, and what it is depends who you ask as to the specifics. (Your definition, for example, is strongly pro-GG, and that's not anything supported by articles). It is a complex mess, so the best descriptor is that it is a controversy over two major sets of issues, as started in August 2014. To define it anymore would be to engage in too much detail within the lead. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, I can't agree that to define it in a way that at the very least gives someone new-to-the-issue some sort of basic understanding of what the two sides are arguing represents providing too much detail in the lead. valereee (talk) 14:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Every mainstream press article that tries to define it has to spend several paragraphs to set the stage so they can get to the point of defining two sides (as each side sees it) for the unaware, the same approach we would have to take, which would be too much for the lead. It's a controversy, it involves two major elements (sexism and misogyny in the video game culture, and journalism ethics). --MASEM (t) 14:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, but that's actually a reasonable explanation: it involves two major elements: sexism and misogyny in the video game culture, and journalism ethics. It doesn't have to be a long explanation, and it can be objectively stated. As it stands there is NO basic explanation whatsoever. valereee (talk) 14:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

what article are you reading? Gamergate (sometimes referred to as GamerGate or as a hashtag #gamergate) is a controversy in video game culture which began in August 2014. It concerns ingrained(1) issues of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community, as well as journalistic ethics in the online gaming press," -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, but which is which, I guess, is the issue I couldn't figure out. Which is Pro-GG? What does it mean to be Pro-GG? Does that mean you are in the sexism/misogyny camp or in the journalistic ethics camp? EDIT TO ADD: I've figured it out by now, of course, after all this discussion here in the Talk page, but when I first read the article, I had no idea. THAT's what I meant by needing more explanation. valereee (talk) 14:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I would say that's missing is identifying the parties, but that was highly contested because even the lines on that that were not clearly drawn. --MASEM (t) 14:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Masem, and that's what I'm asking if we can agree on. I hear you that this is highly contested, but is there ANY explanation of what Pro-GG means? valereee (talk) 15:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

so your concern is that we dont specifically define the terms "pro-gamergater" and "anti-gamergater"? I am not sure why we would try, its not like there are official "party affiliations" that people sign on to with defined platform and position statements. and We only use "pro-gamergate" once in the article (and never use "anti") and its use is near the end where context should be clear. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, my concern is that when someone unfamiliar with this topic but who has recently read somewhere the term "sympathetic to gamergate" or "critic of gamergate" comes here to try to figure out what that means, we've failed them in a very basic way. valereee (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a suggested content change that would help? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, I was thinking some explanation of the shorthand we're using when we say "sympathetic to" or "critical of" gamergate -- something we can agree on that is generally what is meant by these types of shorthands. I'm asking if we can get some agreement on a very simple explanation of what these terms are intended to convey to those in the know. valereee (talk) 15:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

so somethings like changing "The controversy came to wider attention due to a sustained campaign of harassment that indie game developer Zoe Quinn was subjected to " to "he controversy came to wider attention due to a sustained campaign of harassment under the hashtag #gamgergate that indie game developer Zoe Quinn was subjected to " and "allegations about journalistic ethics continued to clash with allegations of harassment and misogyny" to "allegations about journalistic ethics under the gamergate hashtag continued to clash with allegations of harassment and misogyny committed under the hashtag"? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking of something more direct: The two primary 'sides' in the argument are generally those who are focussed on accusations regarding journalistic ethics (generally, "sympathetic to Gamergate") those who are focussed on accusations of misogyny ("critics of Gamergate.") Or something along those lines that can be agreed upon as generally what we mean when we're discussing the issue using those types of or similar designations. valereee (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

except there are not actually any "sides" - theres a bunch of tweets under a hashtag, with the most notable being vile harassment. There are people appalled by the harassment. There are people saying "ignore the harassment" look at this other stuff. There are death threats. There are people leaving the industry. there are people saying "there is tangential stuff that might be interesting, but you are focused on minor issues of women's sex life and are not adequately responding to the harassers in your midst acting under your name. there is harassment of those who dont cover the "look at this". Its not A vs B. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:17, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

However we want to phrase it, though, you'll agree there are people who call themselves or are called sympathetic to gamergate and those who would call themselves/be called critics of it? That's the key issue, IMO. I would hazard to say that the MOST frequent reason someone comes to this page is to answer that question because they came across an article that said someone was "Pro-GG" or whatever and were wondering what that indicated. I'm off to the airport. Maybe I can come up with a couple of sources that describe 'sympathetic to" and "critical of" gamergate that could provide a starting point. valereee (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

No, i dont agree that everything can or should be boiled down to a "them vs us" in general or in particular in regards to this bruhaha. It is people promoting that type of simplistic "it must be either / or" ("it must be my shoot em up games or those crappy art games, and I am not going to let it be art games without a fight" that are behind this whole mess in the first place -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, I agree, not everything can or should be boiled down to an us vs. them paradigm. I do believe that in order to understand this issue, we need to be able to understand what people mean when they say, "sympathetic to GG" or "critic of GG." That's all I'm looking for. valereee (talk) 19:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I dont think that is possible. no one who says "i am progamergate" means "I am all for violent harassment of women in games and the gaming industry". but you do have a group of people who are attempting to insist that a word means one thing and the world must go along with their meaning and the rest of the world saying that word has been so intensely associated with violent harassment of women that it cannot "mean" anything else. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

At one point I added in the lead who the main parties were (a subset of gamers , and game devs and journalists) but this was highly critisized because the groups are not that exclusive - there's some devs/journalists that side with the proGG, and there's gamers that are decidedly antiGG. However, I will still contend that for a lead statement and with the application of common sense, that that type of statement is not to be read as exclusiviely limiting the line between those two groups. --MASEM (t) 15:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

These two sources might be useful:

• Hathaway, Jay (October 10, 2014). "What is Ganergate, and Why? An explainer for Non-Geeks". Gawker.
• Dewey, Caitlin (October 14, 2014). "The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read". Washington Post.

--Elonka 14:48, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

We should really be trying to avoid Gawker sites only because of the fact that we're going to keep running the same line of complaints "They're tied to Kotaku, and they're involved!" But the WaPost story proves my point: it takes 3 paragraphs to even skim the surface for details. We don't have that type of space in the lead for this. What we have now is the best one sentence description on the matter. --MASEM (t) 14:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, well, clearly no one else here really thinks this is a problem. Just thought the discussion might benefit from someone unfamiliar with the topic describing the confusion she still felt (after having read, yes, THIS article), over what seems like a very basic point. valereee (talk) 15:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, no, i think everyone here acknowledges that the article is highly problematic. But much of that comes from the fact that it lacks reliable sources covering it from a perspective where it is clear what the actual context and impact is - and that wont be able to happen for several months yet as it is still "breaking" and so amorphous, except for the harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay. I do wish that now, while it's actually happening and people are likely to be coming here for help, we could have SOME indication of what the media are talking about when they reference "Pro-GG" or "sympathetic to" or "critical of." Clearly everyone here understands what is meant by these terms, so it just seems like at the least we could find some sort of very very basic explanation that can be agreed upon. valereee (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

"That can be agreed upon" - there's the rub! It's not that we don't think it's a problem - you're absolutely right that it is. But essentially the difficulty here is that there are no really reliable sources on what gamergate is, only on what gamergate does. We can't read the minds of every gamergater on the planet, so the best we can do is take what reliable sources are observing about them and work from there. So while we have gaters claiming that they're all about ethics, but we have outside observers noting that their ethical claims are vague and generally miss the big, obvious issues in favor of fixating on a number of female indie devs, critics and journalists. It doesn't help that we have a large amount of pressure on this page to paint gamergate in the best possible light, and give equal weight to the ever-less-believable 'ethics' angle despite the mounting evidence that it really is nothing but a mass harassment campaign, so what we're left with is a wishy-washy mess. -- TaraInDC (talk) 16:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Taraln, LOL! Yes, that does seem to be the rub! I was thinking...if we could find in the mainstream media some descriptions of both (all) 'sides' that characterize them both as from both the positive and the negative points of view...that is, something like, "Sympathizers of Gamergate have been characterized as "(terrible people)" and "(wonderful people") and critics have been characterized as "(ditto)". valereee (talk) 19:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) Misplaced Pages is a work in progess. We cannot make stuff up, even if it would be "helpful", only report on what has been published and present it as best we can reflecting the mainstream analysis. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think your observation has merit, and I hope we come up with a way to better explain it to those new to the topic. What we have here is a Ms. Quinn, a female software developer in the gaming industry, an industry that is predominately male, so there's already gender-based friction there. She also works with games that aren't in a "traditional" flavor, i.e. no shooting aliens, hijacking cars, or pretend wars with pretend guns and pretend squadmates. Then her now-ex pens a blog that accuses her of infidelity with a game journalist, and a movement starts...taking that blog accusation and adding on assertions that that was the reason her games were reviewed favorably. So legions of anons start threatening her and anyone who defends her, while claiming what they're REALLY mad about is the perceived corruption of gamer journalism, and they have taken #gamergate as their rallying term. Herein is the problem; one side decries the misogynistic harassment that Quinn et all have suffered, while the other side essentially lies and says they're just arguing the ethics angle, and that the harassment is unfortunate but unconnected. It's like Obama and the birthers all over again; only the birthers saw themselves as noble patriots fighting for freedom and truth, while the rest of the universe dismissed them as loons. Tarc (talk) 15:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I do think that Valereee has a point, that the lead could do a better job of describing the two sides of the controversy. Perhaps we could add a couple sentences after the first sentence, that say something like, "The controversy generally resolves into two sides, involving tens of thousands of participants on social media: One side that (generally) sees GamerGate as a positive force promoting ethics in games journalism, and another side which (generally) sees GamerGate as a negative force which is using claims of conspiracy to launch misogynistic attacks at a variety of female game journalists and developers." --Elonka 16:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Elonka: That's exactly what I was thinking of -- some descriptions from reliable sources that describe gamergate both as what its most well-intentioned supporters want it to be and what its most ill-intentioned participants are using it for. 71.34.154.63 (talk) 11:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC) valereee (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't really change anything new in the lead though I do agree we should mention is is one driven by social media. It also perhaps simplifies the issue too many to a point that one side or the other could take offense at that. It's very difficult to make a concrete statement what it actually is without ticking someone off. --MASEM (t) 16:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

(e/c)Except there are at least four major "sides" : Those using Gamergate as cover for vile sexist harassment, those using gamergate for a set of varied and amorphous complaints about how journalism and the industry mistreat gamers, those being harassed, those appalled by the harassment (and stunned by the cluelessness of those who say that the sexist harassment is unimportant and should be ignored and what people should really care about as being important is the unfocused complaints about how gamers are mistreated by having to put up with cultural analysis of their games and culture and being classified as sexist) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, if there are four 'sides' then we can perhaps illuminate what those four 'sides' (for want of a better word) are? valereee (talk) 19:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

feel free to offer suggestions, but as Masem has said, at this point, you will have a hard time finding a consensus of reliably published sources that affirmatively agree and clearly enunciate such a distinction. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

TRPoD, but do we need -consensus- among reliable sources, really? If one reliable source describes GG sympathizers as 'ostensibly interested in journalistic ethics but drowned out by trolls' and another describes them as 'a hate campaign in whistleblower's clothing,' can't we simply use both sources? (I'm more concerned about gaining agreement =here= than within the mainstream media.) 71.34.154.63 (talk) 11:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC) valereee (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The issue is that it's not this "us vs. them" thing that people within the movement want to make it out to be. There are no "two sides". At its core, it says it wants to clear out conflicts of interest in gaming journalism, but there are also threats to people's lives that are done essentially in the name of the movement, but are being dismissed entirely as "Just something on the Internet". The people who are calling out the issues with misogyny and sexism are not saying that ethics problems do not exist. They just say that the ethics are not related to the independent developers they're attacking. And then there's arguments that the games media isn't presenting what they want to read by spending time on critical commentary on the story and its themes rather than "is the game fun". The sides are effectively "stop sending me death threats" and "hey, you should stop sending death threats" against "stop writing about things we don't want to read about" and "Five Guys".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm on board with that. All I'm looking for is some clue for newbs as to, when some mainstream media article refers to someone as a 'Gamergate critic' or whatever, what they mean. That is, are they (more or less) critical or sympathetic with WHAT? valereee (talk) 19:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

People are either sympathetic with the desire to seek ethics in gaming media or critical of a movement that has not effectively distanced itself from members threatening to shoot women in the head for being feminists.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the "I don't care about critical commentary of the plot and symbolism, that's SJW bullshit" and the "critical commentary is more important to the survival of the medium than how fun the game is to play" fits in here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Valereee: Let me give it a shot.

Because of the leaderless, anonymous and free-form nature of Gamergate, its goals are amorphous and difficult to describe. While some supporters are interested in a discussion of journalistic ethics, many others have used the hashtag for campaigns of misogynistic harassment against prominent women in the gaming industry while still others have demanded that video game reviewers simply stop talking about issues of gender, race and class in gaming. The movement's lack of organization and inability to develop a coherent message is widely viewed as a significant reason for its public image being dominated by harassment, misogyny and violent threats. Caitlin Dewey of The Washington Post wrote that the movement has some well-meaning supporters "making some decent arguments," but they have been entirely drowned out by anonymous harassment and unproductive trolling. ""Whatever voices of reason may have existed, at some point, have been totally subsumed by the mob," she concluded.

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

NorthBySouthBaranof, it's The Washington Post. Like A Tribe Called Quest.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Bah, I can never remember which newspapers use the article as part of their formal name and which don't. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Northbysouthbaranof: That would have explained it to me. But in order to gain agreement, I would assume we'd need to find additional mainstream sources. 11:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC) valereee (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources for it, I just didn't bother inlining them here because it's just too damn fussy on a talk page. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been saying this since the beginning, look at KnowYourMeme's entry. Right away the reader knows where and why the controversy began, and then gives a timeline, I know this isn't how Misplaced Pages works, but the lead should be a little more specific for regular readers. Loganmac (talk) 20:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

We don't need Know Your Meme here to describe a thinly veiled hate movement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Decent GameIndustry.biz article on why GG is happening (coincides with some mainstream)

. Writer is sympathetic with the proGG side and points out that this is a backlash to the changing nature of video games, which is a point I think has come up in a few mainstream sources published over the last few days in response to the Wu and Sarkeensian pieces. --MASEM (t) 14:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Saw this, pretty neutral. Are you adding something from this. I see every time you post even mildly proGG articles your post gets ignored into oblivion and nothing happens Loganmac (talk) 20:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Pretty wrong, as it avoids talking about all of the substantive concerns. It's fine to add to the pile of sources that say the shifting medium contributes, but other than that there's not much value to it. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

BBC Radio Business Matters 2

Roger Hearing: "What lies at the core of the movement called Gamergate is actually concern amongst gamers that they're being deceived, that the people who write about new games have got rather too cozy with the people who make them, that they're damaging the industry by failing to be honest with the readers and the game-players."

Kain notes that The Escapist Magazine was upfront with problems in its policies, and addressed them with new ethics guidelines. Thinks that other game review/critic/reporting sites should be more upfront about what's going on. "A lot of these ... video game publishers pay for press to go to these events, preview events where they go and their plane tickets and hotel rooms are all paid for ... free food, free drinks, it's all very flattering as a journalist to be wined and dined and to get an all-expenses paid trip to cover a video game. But I think that it creates problematic coverage of that video game from a consumer standpoint." Consumer groups, ombudsmen, and a standard code of ethics have been suggested to solve these problems. "A lot of what we're seeing is growing pains ... The gaming press is very young compared to ... people covering film. People often say we don't have a Roger Ebert of criticism ... The press does have a long ways to go, the industry has a long ways to go. That even ties into some of these issues with misogyny and sexism ... This is such a young and male-driven industry ..."

David: "What it really boils down to: transparency is partially correct, but ultimately you should let market forces decide ... We know that this goes on in many different types of industries."

~17:00 http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/business/business_20141015-0100a.mp3

Willhesucceed (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Between this episode and the previous one, above, where the woman notes there are serious ethical concerns, it deserves bigger mention. Willhesucceed (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

While it is not our place to dissect these sources, this podcast is assuming that the movement is focusing on the big name publishers when it summarily has not.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately coverage has tended to focus on a subset of a portion of the concerns--those that are juicy tabloid fodder, I guess--which has had the effect of narrowing Gamergate concerns for now because they're on the defensive, but hopefully now that it's more mainstream other business outlets and such will be able to provide a clearer picture. Willhesucceed (talk) 16:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, the issue has gone more mainstream, i.e. Talk:Gamergate controversy#Utah Terror Threat, but unfortunately not in the direction that you'd prefer. "Angry gamers threaten school shooting" is what the traditional media will run with now; the encyclopedia and this and related articles will reflect that. Tarc (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

And it's great that some sources are reporting the facts: "An anonymous person ... The threat didn’t cite #GamerGate ..." VB And it's a good thing all Middle Easterners aren't tarred with the ISIS brush, right? Anyway, we're veering into forum territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willhesucceed (talk • contribs) 16:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

No we will absolutely not. Some have run with that, but there are still sources reporting on that and staying neutral like the BBC. --MASEM (t) 16:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we absolutely will (ain't imperative sentences grand?), IF reliable sources begin to focus exclusively on the hate and harassment, which is the direction they are heading. Tarc (talk) 17:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If the majority of them (particularly mainstream) go that way, then yes, that's how we'll have to do it, but they aren't there yet and there's still possible course correction if this last batch of antiGG support doesn't turn things around. --MASEM (t) 01:50, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

HuffPost Live

has reported on the issue twice now.

Wu, Kain, and 8chan's founder interviewed: mostly focuses on harassment.

Gamergate and three women who support it: mostly discusses ethical concerns and the misrepresentation in the media.

Willhesucceed (talk) 17:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Huffington Post is a very very weak source, and generally not appropriate for contested articles like this. --MASEM (t) 01:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Ya, I know, thought it was source worth noting here for easy reference if anything else comes up. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested edit - ending clause with preposition followed immediately by another preposition.

Please consider changing the opening clause in the second paragraph from:

"The controversy came to wider attention due to a sustained campaign of harassment that indie game developer Zoe Quinn was subjected to after..."

to:

"The controversy came to wider attention due to a sustained campaign of harassment to which indie game developer Zoe Quinn was subjected after..." David in DC (talk) 18:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

How about "The controversy came to wider attention due to a sustained campaign of harassment targeting indie game developer Zoe Quinn after..." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Solves the same problem less clunkily than my proposal. Cool by me. David in DC (talk) 19:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The third paragraph could do with some work

The rising popularity of the medium, and greater emphasis on games as a potential art form, has led to a commensurate focus on social criticism within gaming media and indie works. This shift has prompted opposition from traditional "hardcore" gamers who view games purely as a form of entertainment. This opposition, however, has often been expressed in the form of personal harassment of female figures in the industry rather than constructive cultural conversations. The harassment campaign against Quinn was of such ferocity as to attract significant mainstream media attention which focused on the sexist, misogynistic and trolling elements within the gamer community. Allegations of impropriety in gaming media have prompted policy changes at several outlets, and commentators generally agree that systemic problems in the gaming media need to be discussed; however, the harassment and misogyny associated with Gamergate is seen as having poisoned the well. Furthermore, the choice to focus the campaign on a heretofore relatively obscure independent developer rather than AAA publishers has led to questions about its motivations.

Several words seems poorly chosen. I think the use of the word campaign so be avoided, it's quite emotive and intimidating. I'd remove the reference to choice in ". . . the choice to focus the campaign. . . ." to make it more like ". . . the movement's greater focus. . . . ". We don't know of any leadership. I also question the use of personal harassment instead of just harassment. I don't see how it adds any actual information while it's quite emotive.

I think it also seems to make some assumptions."The harassment campaign against Quinn was of such ferocity. . . ." this would really need a citation, this is presenting unique information. "This opposition, however, has often been expressed in the form of. . . ." again I don't think you can assume the motives behind these people.

That's just my two cents Halfhat (talk) 20:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Words are emotive. There was a harassment *campaign* against Quinn which is well-sourced and unassailable. The "ferocity" part is similarly well-sourced. If you want another cite tag there, we can easily do it. The fact that the opposition has often been expressed in personal harassment is, yet again, well-sourced. We're not assuming anything, we're reporting what reliable sources have said.

The fact that there isn't any leadership doesn't prevent us from stating that the movement made choices. A leaderless mob can still make choices. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Words are emotive. However we want the articles to be nuetral and not express an opinion, using unnecessary emotive language does that. If there's a source for the ferocity of the harassment was the reason for the media attention then I think it needs to be more clear. If either of the citations say that the disapproval of the shift of gaming culture was expressed as harrassment I seem to have missed it, which I accept is possible. Reading source 10 also makes me question it's use as source for things other than opinion, it seems highly opinionated. Though I'm probably not experienced enough to really discuss that Halfhat (talk) 21:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) re: "The harassment campaign against Quinn was of such ferocity. . . ." content in the lead does not need a footnote if it is appropriately sourced in the body, and with dozens of such sources linked in the body no, it does not need a cite in the lead. It is hardly controversial - I have not seen one source that says the campaign of harassment was anything but over-the-top vile.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying the harassment wasn't ferocious. What I'm saying is we can't assume that that was the cause of the media attention.Halfhat (talk) 21:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, thats right, they covered it because they were interested in her sex life. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Or maybe it was something like she was easy to contact to cover the issue. Was easy to do sufficient background research due to previous coverage. My point is you are making a specific claim which is being assumed. That is not good. Halfhat (talk) 21:57, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Admins: proposed small wording change

Currently, the {{edit protected}} article includes this sentence: Forbes' Erik Kain, while stating Gamasutra shouldn't be punished for opinions of its writers, described Intel's decision as "a consumer movement, not an anti-women movement." Having read the cited article, I'd propose this revised sentence: Forbes' game reporter and critic Erik Kain wrote that he disagreed with Intel's decision to pull its ads, but said he believed the decision was motivated by Intel's understanding of the campaign as "a consumer movement, not an anti-women movement." Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 21:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks for catching that. Willhesucceed (talk) 21:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice work. I think it's better, but I think we should maybe tweek it. I don't think it's intel he disagreed with but the people doing the pressuring he said "I can understand why Intel pulled their ads, even though I disagree that this is the best method to continue the #GamerGate debate". Maybe something more like "Forbes' game reporter and critic Erik Kain wrote that he believed Intel's decision to remove its ads was motivated by Intel's understanding of the campaign as "a consumer movement, not an anti-women movement. However he felt that trying to censure people is not beneficial.""Halfhat (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Timeline source

Reason.com Has the above source been used? If not, it could be included. Retartist (talk) 22:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is reason.com considered a reliable source? I also skimmed it and it seemed quite pro-GG as well, though some anti-GG sources were used so I don't think there's a problem with that. Halfhat (talk) 22:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this has been discussed already. I could swear that there's a discussion elsewhere on this page about me allegedly violating WP:SYN by agreeing with someone wanting to say that the two female devs namedropped in this piece actually have been the targets of misogynist and sexist harassment by citing the news stories in question along with this piece. It also gets a lot of the details wrong, like the claim that one of Quinn's other partners was a judge in a contest Depression Quest won when Papers Please won and DQ only got an honorable mention. And it frames the hatred of Quinn as being related to the TFYC dispute when I don't think gamergate had any clue about TFYC until Gamergate happened because I don't think I ever saw Vivian James before August of this year.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Look above somewhere. Willhesucceed (talk) 23:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is Playstation Universe considered a reliable source?

They have a pretty interesting article that could be used for opinions and commentary. http://www.psu.com/feature/24941/GamerGate-and-MSNBC--Understanding-the-culture-war If it's considered reliable it could be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfhat (talk • contribs) 23:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

any non-known source that starts "You know that reliable source - its entirely wrong" is probably not. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Conflicting sources does not mean that X source is reliable while Y is not. They have to be evaluated based on reputation, editorial control, and the like. Editorial control is one of the biggest factors. They have editorial control. and even have an article here. If we're going to put RS based on editorial control, then yes, this would be a RS. They also do screen people before hiring them and actually do hire people. See http://www.psu.com/site/jobs Tutelary (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

and sony has no reputation for presenting news with accuracy and fact checking and it is calling a major news station with a reputation decades long. Which do we consider the reliable source? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources can still be wrong though. Throwing out PSU for not being in agreement with a reliable source is not valid. You can't say "Y is not reliable because they disagree with X about this subject" and expect people to take it seriously. If you think PSU isn't a reliable, bring up actual concerns with it. 24.192.67.45 (talk) 02:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There are multiple other sources which agree with PSU, just not specifically as re: MSNBC. However, considering it's otherwise in line with other RSs, it seems okay to me to use as an opinion. As to whether it's noteworthy ... Considering everything else going on, one website's opinion of one news outlet's coverage seems irrelevant. Willhesucceed (talk) 03:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It was discussed here, although there wasn't much of a discussion at all. Might want to start a new discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources. Woodroar (talk) 03:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

as an opinion it is clearly undue. there is not one reliable source which suggests that gamergate is not primarily about harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

NYT

link

Pretty disappointing. Thought they'd put more effort into it. Oh well. Willhesucceed (talk) 01:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

and

Stand out in particular. Tarc (talk) 01:35, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Also

Pay attention to the wording. Willhesucceed (talk) 01:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Your mean the wording that indicates that the "pro-Gamergate" factions keep sliding the goalposts backwards ever few weeks? Loud & clear, brah. Initially, these people and their defenders staked their defensive line on "harassment didn't happen", then it was proven that it did. Then it fell back on "it wasn't so bad", till it was shown that it was. Now we're approaching the Maginot Line; "it wasn't us!" I call that progress. Tarc (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea why you're haranguing me. I'm just pointing out the section. Willhesucceed (talk) 02:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Key quote from the director of the International Game Developers Association, showing the industry's stance:

Better lead sentence

Gamergate (sometimes referred to as GamerGate or as a hashtag #gamergate) is a controversy in video game culture which began in August 2014. Gamergate is the name of a controversy that started in August 2014 primarily over social media as a culture war between members of the video game media, developer community, and gamer community over pre-existing issues of sexism and misogyny in the video game culture, and the ethics of video game journalism. Aimed to capture a few issues that have been id'd above, adding in the idea this is a culture war (more than enough sources), identifying but not pigeonholing key players, and avoiding the "inherent"/"ingrained" issue with the fact that these problems have been there. --MASEM (t) 01:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree with that change. Q 03:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Could replace the laundry list with "a culture war in video game culture over pre-existing issues..." More concise and inclusive. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree with masem Retartist (talk) 03:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It has so many clauses that it seems like it should really be 2 sentences. Also the way two different meanings of the word "over" are used in the same sentence is a bit jarring. How about this: "Gamergate is the name of a controversy over pre-existing issues of sexism and misogyny in the video game culture, and the ethics of video game journalism. The controversy first arose in August 2014 and was primarily propagated via social media as a culture war between members of the video game press, developer community, and gamer community." ? -Thibbs (talk) 04:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I prefer yours, Thibbs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willhesucceed (talk • contribs) 05:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Template:2c Gamergate is a culture war that began on social media in August 2014 involving the video game media, developer community, and gamer community over pre-existing issues of sexism, misogyny, and journalistic ethics in video game culture. Cleaned up language, 51 words down to 36, better links. --beefyt (talk) 04:40, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I like it better, but I still find there to be too many qualifiers splitting the subject. At its most simple core it's "a controversy/culture war over pre-existing issues... and journalistic ethics." That's what the article should lead with. Then further qualifiers could be added to the end of the sentence. How about this: Gamergate is a culture war over pre-existing issues of sexism, misogyny, and journalistic ethics in video game culture that began on social media in August 2014 and involved the video game media, developer community, and gamer community. ? -Thibbs (talk) 04:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd split it up to make sure to add "members of" since not all of those groups are involved. eg "...journalistic ethics in the video game culture. The controversy started in social media in August 2014 between members of the video game media, developer community, and gamer community." --MASEM (t) 05:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate was not a "culture war", it was a lynchmob that backfired. "War" implies that there were two belligerents involved. Kaldari (talk) 06:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

That very article says "culture war". Also, a culture war is not always a war with two explicit sides, but can be a single group against a larger shifting tide. --MASEM (t) 06:40, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. Opposition withdrawn. Kaldari (talk) 07:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I think of the versions suggested, Thibbs' is the most readable, although I prefer the existing wording of 'ingrained' over 'pre-existing'. Kaldari (talk) 07:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

AgreeI think that's far better. Halfhat (talk) 09:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

reliable sources dont present it as a "culture war" - they present it as "Ostensibly a campaign against corruption in journalism but in practice a grassroots attack on feminist critics in gaming" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. This is a disingenuous treatment of the subject, bordering on deceptive, and I'm ashamed that an admin is actually behind it. This is ingrained sexism and harassment, long-ingrained in the gamer community that came to a boil over false allegations of impropriety against a female game developer. This is not a "culture war", unless there's a "culture" that is pro-sexual harassment in play here. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Harassment of trans and queer game developers

The cover story of this week's East Bay Express is about Gamergate. It's a pretty long and detailed piece. Interestingly, it includes discussion of a topic not mentioned in our current article: harassment of trans and queer game developers. It might be worth integrating some mention of this issue into our current article. Kaldari (talk) 07:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's finally talk about Patreon, shall we? Link to other sources in the archive. Also Reason. Gamergate's discovering Patricia Hernandez's conduct seems noteworthy. Willhesucceed (talk) 08:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's been a major part of discourse. How briefly can we summarize it? Halfhat (talk) 09:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Willhesucceed: the East Bay Express article downplays those quoted examples, though, even including this rebuttal:

Polygon editor Christopher Grant, meanwhile, published a blogpost reminding readers that "like Kickstarter, these contributions aren't investments. There is no equity to be gained, there is no market to capitalize on."

And at the same time they are contrasted with the

common practice for big-budget video game companies to wine and dine press at fancy events and give away free products like new game consoles.

So I'm not sure it's as damning as you would make it appear. Multiple editors above had also expressed concern with using Reason for BLP statements, which would include Patreon or any ethics claims about journalists. Woodroar (talk) 09:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit request

In the third paragraph, can we change "The harassment campaign against Quinn" to "The harassment campaign against Quinn and others". Several mainstream sources also discuss the harassment of Sarkeesian, Fish, and other developers and critics caught up in Gamergate. Kaldari (talk) 07:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

CNN

link

Willhesucceed (talk) 07:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It could maybe be used. It certainly seems like it was written by an outsider, that is really a good thing. It could be fleshed out more but how about adding

"Writting for CNN Brandon Griggs argued that while it was "at a basic level" a discussion journalistic integrity and gaming culture, it has also been used an excuse for harassment, particularly against women" Though someone else could probably do a better job. Halfhat (talk) 10:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I propose these changes to the second and third paragraph

I tried to make this less emotive, removed some redundancy, removed a couple parts that implied small pieces of unsourced information and tried to make it flow better.

The controversy came to wider attention due to the sustained harassment indie game developer Zoe Quinn was subjected to after an ex-boyfriend posted numerous allegations on his blog in August 2014, including that she had "romantic relationship" with members of the gaming media which prompted concerns that the relationship led to positive media coverage for her game. Although the concerns of at least one of these proved unfounded, allegations about journalistic ethics continued to clash with allegations of harassment and misogyny. The rising popularity of the medium, and greater emphasis on games as a potential art form, has led to a commensurate focus on social criticism within gaming media and indie works. This shift has prompted opposition from more traditional "hardcore" gamers who view games purely as a form of entertainment. Other topics of debate have included perceived changes or threats to the "gamer" identity as a result of the ongoing changes to the gaming industry.

Allegations of impropriety in gaming media have prompted policy changes at several outlets, and commentators generally agree that systemic problems in the gaming media need to be discussed; however, the harassment and misogyny associated with GamerGate is seen as having poisoned the well. Furthermore, the focus of the movement on a heretofore relatively obscure independent developer rather than AAA publishers has led to questions about its motivations.

Halfhat (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The allegations which have been widely reported in reliable sources (which are the only ones we care about) have been shown to be false, and we have no interest in any of the others. You've also removed extensive discussion of the threats against Quinn and others and how they are seen as being responsible for the fact that mainstream sources have focused on the movement's misogynistic, harassing and trolling elements. Those parts of your proposal are not acceptable.

We can get rid of the word "allegations" before harassment, though — it's well-sourced in reliable sources that such harassment has happened. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

as per NorthBySouthBaranof. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

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