Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:39, 17 October 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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I need some help

I would like to discuss you with my current situation with things. And it has gotten to the point that i do not trust the administration system itself. If you could hear me out, i would like some help in the matter. the highest i would possibly go is the arbitration committee. Over time, more and more of these occurrences have occurred with these members, however as the same situation occurred, more and more members have noticed the punitive bias certain members have grouped.

With what has happened and very limited both in knowledge and time to get back into Misplaced Pages, my options are limited (no matter how many people claim i have options, they are simply not in my situation). i would really like to return to Misplaced Pages, but only if there is an investigation behind the history behind certain recurring members throughout my history in Misplaced Pages, and perhaps some additional comments from members who also noticed this form of bias. If i'm right about this, this could be a major hole in how the administrative action system works.

If you are free and interested to know more, i would be willing to give further details. If you're too busy to take a look at this, it would be good to at least know you are and perhaps point me to someone with arbitration (that i can trust). But i wuld really appreciate it if i can also mention other editors who have noticed similar action. Lucia Black (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Another suggestion i would like to ask for is turn WP:PUNISH to be turned intoa policy, if possible more than just a guideline. Lucia Black (talk) 03:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't represent Jimmy, the WMF, or anyone/anything else in any capacity. A lot of people ask me, and I never promise that I'll bring attention to any cause before understanding it fully, and I speak up on relatively few that I have looked in to. I have next to no direct influence, and none that isn't out in the open for all to see. I'm almost 100% pure n00b to the project. Come to think of it, right now all's I got going for me is a blog some Wikipedians look at from time to time. But if you'd like to tell someone your story, I'll lend you my ear. Just drop me a note on my talk page if you're interested in borrowing it. Best. -wʃʃʍ- 08:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Jennifer Lawrence naked on Misplaced Pages again

Jimbo, exactly as I predicted, someone has made stolen naked images appear on Misplaced Pages's biography of Jennifer Lawrence again. I don't credit myself with any special powers of prognostication, it was just obvious that this would happen again if we didn't find a way to prevent it. Dozens of female celebrities have recently had stolen private images leaked to the public. Unless we find a way to stop this, we can look forward to it happening over and over. And the remarks on Talk:Jennifer Lawrence show that readers do notice and aren't happy. What are we doing to fix this? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I highly recommend that we move the image that we want in the article onto English Misplaced Pages and link to it locally rather than at Commons. In this way, we can make sure that at least English Misplaced Pages lives up to our ethical standards. This should be the case unless and until Commons does the right thing and protects the image on their end. It is a terrible loophole that something critical on Misplaced Pages is left vulnerable to shenanigans on commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The infobox image has been fully protected on Commons for several days. The other images were fully protected about 12 hours ago, and are set to stay so until April. You know, if someone had just asked a Commons admin to do that.... -mattbuck (Talk) 14:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Why weren't the other images protected after the first time this happened? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

JImbo, that's fine for Jennifer Lawrence, but what about the literally dozens of other celebrities involved in the recent leaks? And what stops naked Jennifer Lawrence pictures showing up on unrelated articles? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Apparently you can just ask Mattbuck to protect them and... problem solved. If that turns out not to be true (I won't prejudge the question) then I recommend moving them to English Misplaced Pages and protecting them here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Post a list of articles whose pictures you want protected at commons:COM:AN and we'll take care of it. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I avoid participating at commons due to the blatant harassment of me that is tolerated there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't stating that you in particular had to do it, but if someone could come up with a list of what articles/images need protecting, that would be helpful. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

What is your suggestion to stop this? --NeilN 14:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Beyond not allowing uploads, there's not really any way to avoid it. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That's obviously untrue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

???. What's to stop editors from uploading pictures and adding them to wherever they like? There's no magic solution, just like there's no magic wand to wave away vandalism. --NeilN 15:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to ask why we (or commons) allow images to be replaced in this way, without any checks. It is an obvious vulnerability, and we appear to have no mechanism whatsoever available to detect it. Why not? There must be software available that can compare old and new images to see whether they are similar (reverse image searches clearly work that way) and the occasional false positive would be no more problematic than those from our existing anti-text-vandalism bots. And if we can't do that, perhaps we should consider some kind of mechanism for allerting those watching articles using images that the image has been changed - an automated post to the article talk page would be better than nothing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Is there anyway I can help out?Mirror Freak My Guestbook 15:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It seems that if someone can get a list of images in 'Fappening' affected articles to Mattbuck, he'll protect them at commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Have we tried to compare the names of the photos that the vandals are uploading? There may be some kind of similarity between them.Mirror Freak My Guestbook 15:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Changing file names is trivial. --NeilN 15:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The vandals are replacing images that are already on Commons, so the filename doesn't even get looked at. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Such a mechanism would be very helpful, Andy. Some easy way to detect that stuff certainly. I mean, I have some 82k pages on my Commons watchlist, which is enough that I can't actually edit the raw watchlist anymore, but even if all those were images it's not even close to 1% of Commons. Most images likely are watched by their dead account uploader and no one else. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Following a suggestion above by AndyTheGrump: could software be used that assesses the similarity between an existing image and a replacement? I suspect most updates are very similar and could be accepted automatically, while radical changes with low similarity could be flagged for attention. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's better than nothing, but for images where there's cropping or things are being moved around for any one of a hundred legitimate reasons, it's going to create a significant number of false positives which will require equally significant amounts of volunteer effort to approve. Nick (talk) 00:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

For so you know, All pictures from enwiki article of Jennifer Lawrence have been protected. All naked images from Jennifer Lawrence (at least all we are aware of) have been deleted from history and oversight. I've just reported it to the Legal and Community Advocacy team. Do not hesitate to contact one of our fonctionnary (even privately if one don't want to go on Wikimedia Commons). --PierreSelim (talk) 06:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Pierre. The discussion here is about how to stop this from happening again and again and again. There seems to be absolutely nothing to prevent vandals from replacing the lead image in Ol' Waylon Sings Ol' Hank (to choose a random article) with a naked image of Jennifer Lawrence (or any one of dozens of other celebrities who have had their private images stolen and leaked to the internet recently). Legit Alternate Account (talk) 15:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The situation on Commons

The situation at Commons and the situation with civility in English Misplaced Pages are similar in the sense that a Wikimedia community has gotten out of line with WMF guidance. In the case of Commons, it is apparently simply out of control, and maybe WMF needs to intervene. In the case of civility in the English Misplaced Pages, reasonable editors can disagree, but the community is ignoring or disregarding the (nominally overarching) WMF policy. It appears that the WMF can't or won't enforce its own policies. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

How does this have anything to do with the Lawrence situation? --NeilN 15:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Robert, could you please explain quite what you're referring to regarding civility and Commons? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I am referring to two different situations that are related only in that two Wikimedia communities behave in ways that are out of line with WMF intent and the intent of Jimbo Wales. The civility issue doesn't have to do with Commons, but with the English Misplaced Pages. WMF and Jimbo Wales favor high standards of civility. The English Misplaced Pages has low standards of civility. Some editors essentially get a pass on civility. Very little can be done about it, because if one of them is blocked, the block is reversed by another admin, and the restoration of a block would be punitive rather than preventive. Jimbo Wales expresses concern about the deteriorating civility situation. There has been discussion of the use of WMF resources to address the issue. I know less about the Commons situation, but it is my understanding in the specific case that a legitimate image of the actress was replaced (vandalism) with a stolen nude image of the actress. Has the Commons editor who replaced the image been blocked or banned from Commons? The two situations are not related, except that they appear to illustrate disconnects between WMF policy or intent and the actual environment in the Wikimedia community. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If you know less about the Commons situation, why comment it was out of control? A quick check would have shown you the editors were blocked with no fuss. --NeilN 16:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for blocking the vandals. I will add that part of my comparison of the two situations is that in both cases Jimbo Wales complains, but either doesn't do anything or doesn't do anything obvious, although he has reserved powers in English Misplaced Pages that he doesn't use. (Does he have reserved powers on Commons?) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: I had nothing to do with blocking the vandals. That was the admins on Commons. Jimbo has the founder flag on all Wikimedia projects. --NeilN 16:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever blocked the vandals. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to take issue with the idea that these people are somehow "Commons vandals", they're vandals that have attacked the entire Wikimedia family of sites, every single Wikimedia Foundation wiki that uses these files was affected. I'm also quite frankly shocked and very disappointed that you think the administrators on Commons wouldn't block these accounts. There's the obvious and very important moral argument about uploading these images, we know the subject asked people not to view them or further distribute them, so respecting the subject's wishes is of course paramount, but there's a boring, practical legal issue - these images are simple copyright violations that have to be deleted, we have a legal and a moral responsibility to make sure that copyright violations are not distributed further, which we do day in, day out by blocking those who upload copyright violations. Nick (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

When I made the suggestion, Commons responded in about an hour. Ideas for restricting overwriting of files or improving watchlisting are being discussed now. I think that Commons deserves to be dealt with in good faith here, without the whiff of pessimism I'm getting above. The overwrites to files have always been problematic - they can be used to retroactively make User: pages look scandalous, or to get into POV battles -- or worst of all, and most frequently, they are used to "update" figures over and over again, contrary to WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM, so that instead of having individual snapshots in time for, say, the spread of an epidemic, we end up with a mess of old history versions, none especially accurate, where the functions of removing errors and changing the time the file represent are slurred together preventing the creation of an encyclopedic resource. Yet, of course, we do need to be able to make corrections to errors; maybe a same author mechanism, with an admin exception for rare cases, would work. But please, talk about it, don't just diss Commons.

As for protecting every celebrity in "The Fappening", there's only so much we can do. If we froze every one of their articles so that nobody could add new images, then we'd be "punishing" them by hindering coverage. If people can add new images, they'll never all be protected. While it is fair to give special protection to Lawrence since she has been singled out here, it's not obvious that the people who didn't complain will be similarly targeted. We need to balance the risk -- hindering the flow of information to the 20,000 people day after day, month after month who view Lawrence's article, versus roughly 300 people who saw the picture during each of the two photo substitutions. To me, Misplaced Pages's purpose is supposed to be sharing information, and it deeply troubles me when people put the goal of blocking information so high above that this purpose isn't even weighed in the balance. Wnt (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Obvious suggestions

Since @NeilN: asked me, here are some of the obvious suggestions to deal with this problem:

(1) Don't allow brand new accounts to replace existing images.

(2) Images that are uploaded to Commons should be approved by someone before they can be used. I'm not the first person to suggest this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat the suggestion. Why would you let anyone upload random images and not check them for copyright status, personality rights, & etc before you let anyone with an internet connection see and use them? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Things that won't work: protecting images after vandals have already used them or protecting all of the images of Jennifer Lawrence (for example). Any image can be replaced with a naked picture of Jennifer Lawrence. My thanks to the vandal who made that point clear on this very page a few minutes ago. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The first one would be good (though exceptions should be made for own files), but the second one... it would be like turning on flagged revisions across all of wikipedia. In a way it makes sense, but it goes against the idea that "anyone can edit". -mattbuck (Talk) 22:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't prevent anyone from uploading pictures, it just requires that the pictures are approved before they can be used. How does that go against "anyone can edit"? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 22:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Mattbuck: Any idea how many images are uploaded to Commons every day? --NeilN 22:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is going to be very unscientific, but looking at commons:Special:NewFiles, the first 200 take us back roughly 20mins. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but what percentage of uploaded images are actually used in articles? I did a similarly unscientific check of about two dozen images added 24 hours ago, and found only one used -- a rate of under 5%. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think any approval process would have to be at the Misplaced Pages-level (when an unchecked image is added to an article), not at the Commons level, as there's too much incoming trivial stuff to wade through. If approval implies you've checked for copyright violations then that significantly adds to the time (there have been instances where it's taken me ~10 minutes to properly ascertain the copyright status for an image). For a first cut, approval might mean the image isn't obviously inappropriate. This would require software changes which prompts the question, how prevalent is this problem? I know we've had a recent spate of high profile incidents but the addition of inappropriate images (content-wise, not referring to copyright) to articles is something I rarely come across. --NeilN 01:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If the answer for not checking that each uploaded image satisfies the criteria that Commons has defined is that "it takes too long" then why bother setting criteria at all? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 03:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to make sense. It's like asking if your speed isn't monitored at all times, why bother setting a speed limit at all? --NeilN 09:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is like that. Or, the situation on Commons is like saying that guns and bombs aren't allowed on planes, but we don't bother to check you or your carry-on luggage. Analogies are fun. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

So you're comparing paid staff checking for objects used to commit terrorism to unpaid volunteers checking for copyright violations. How absurd. Do you want to apply pending changes on every Misplaced Pages article as well? --NeilN 15:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I would rather discuss ways to fix the problem than get involved in debating details of poor analogies. You seem to be resistant to looking at any changes to the status quo. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 15:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I sketched out a first cut solution along with a question. You replied with the unhelpful "why have any rules at all?" --NeilN 15:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Checking images at each Misplaced Pages when they are added to an article would do nothing to mitigate the problem of replacing the existing image on Commons. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

mattbuck has already said your first point was good. I'm trying to address your second point. --NeilN 15:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Flagged revision of upload is not gonna work efficiently in any case. But I have a third suggestion: Anyone who wants to upload new image to Commons has to be at least autoconfirmed user in any Wikimedia project assuming they're using global account. So this new rule would not affect those experienced normal users who seldom upload image to Commons but actually prevent brand new accounts from making disruptive upload. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 03:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Why should an user who's only interested in donating photos be forced to make text edits? --NeilN 03:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The threshold of passing autoconfirmed in English Misplaced Pages is sufficiently low. If a brand new user dreadfully wants to make massive uploads on Commons, they can ask another user for proxy upload, so the files are at least (theoretically) examined by a 3rd party who has at least some basic knowledge of our policies. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Slow down there. I see no reason to assume that this couldn't work efficiently. For one thing, it might be useful to distinguish between people who upload one, two, or ten images and people who upload hundreds of images at a time. Let's ignore the massive, semi-automated uploads from Flickr and other known sources. How many images are uploaded per day (excluding bulk uploads and bot uploads)? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 03:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@NeilN:, any thoughts? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 15:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Legit Alternate Account: You're looking for stats I can't give you. Maybe the WMF should get a staffer to come up with these numbers along with answering the questions I posed above? What we're talking about requires a software change which in turn needs a justification. --NeilN 15:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

A really obvious solution is not to have images in those articles. Images aren't a requirement and notable celebrities have enough external links if people need pictures (maybe we need a "no image" page protection flag). We've always had vandalism and can never stop it completely. Even with lockdowns, the images will move to other areas. e.g. do we prevent uploads for images in the main page? BTW, I'd also suggest checkusering all uploaders of the material and storing that information for either law enforcement or civil suit. If any of the women have filed, it might be in WMF's interest to join them as victims in any class action as a show of support and access to logs of uploaders, page views, etc. --DHeyward (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation's FY2013-14 financial report

WMF released their audited financial report for Fiscal Year 2013-2014 (ending June 30, 2014) yesterday. The pdf for the 14-page report may be found HERE. I was extremely surprised to see on page 9 what appears to be a new line item among the foundation's investments — "mortgage-based securities" — consisting of just over $6 million in value, or about a quarter of the foundation's total investments. Investment in corporate bonds has also nearly doubled over the previous fiscal year, to about $7 million. At the same time, investment in low-risk/low-return treasury securities and municipal bonds has fallen from over $9.6 million to about $7.9 million. I am not a financial analyst, but it appears to me that WMF's asset manager has made a decision to become more aggressive in investment strategy. My question is this: is this an appropriate strategy for a public charity — absorbing additional investment risk in an effort to achieve greater investment returns?

My second question, closely related and from the same page of the report, is this: even with the more aggressive investment strategy, WMF's net income on investments for FY2013-14 is stated as $243,000 on $23.26M invested — barely over 1%. What is the story here? Carrite (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Garfield at the Foundation is better placed to answer specific questions about investment strategy. I will only comment on the high level philosophical question.

I think it can be a mistake to be either too conservative or too aggressive with investment strategy. We certainly do not want the Foundation to take wild risks (speculating on currency or investing the entire reserve in growth stocks or something like that). Nor should we want the Foundation to invest only in extremely low-paying assets.

Here is a typical discussion by nonprofit governance experts: "Good risk management with regard to an investment strategy requires the organization to balance three, sometimes-competing goals: 1) minimizing investment risk, 2) obtaining access to the funds when needed, and 3) earning a reasonable rate of return." Read more here

One important risk management principle is diversification. So having debt instruments of different classes (mortgage-backed, corporate, and government bonds) can reduce overall risk. As we put it: "If the asset values do not move up and down in perfect synchrony, a diversified portfolio will have less risk than the weighted average risk of its constituent assets, and often less risk than the least risky of its constituent." See Diversification (finance) for more details, including (if you have the stamina) some of the mathematics behind it.

Finally, another important principle in longterm asset management involves matching the timing of income to the timing of expenses. In our context, that can mean looking to a diversity of maturities. The risk on a zero coupon 30 year government bond can look substantial in the short run, but does guarantee (nearly so) a particular payoff at a particular time in 30 years. This last is only one example to highlight the principle - not a specific goal for our investment strategy. The principle is that we should have securities which mature in the short term, as well as securities which have longer maturities.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I spent a few years working for an asset management firm. We specialized in asset management for insurance companies which are decidedly not charities, but many of the same principles apply. I'll echo what Jimbo said while differing on literally one word.

One important aspect of asset strategy involves monitoring the timing of income and expenses. The technical term used is "duration" which loosely speaking can be viewed as a timing metric. However, we emphasized duration management as opposed to duration matching. Duration matching (which is what Jimbo described) isn't necessarily the optimum strategy. Some departures from the matching strategy are acceptable. However, the larger context that analyzing the relative timing of income and expenses is exactly the right approach.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm still not getting two things: (1) Why all of the sudden is WMF putting about a quarter of its chips into Mortgage-backed securities (regarded as the economic snake oil that caused the 2008 crisis)?; and (2) Why is net investment income on $23+M invested so paltry, particularly if a move has been made to more higher-risk/greater-reward investments? Who exactly at WMF could explain these things? Carrite (talk) 18:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The investment policy - decided by the board - does bear some looking at. It looks like the results are consistent with blindly following that investment policy, but I would have hoped that the asset managers wouldn't have done something as (removed word) as investing in municipal bonds.

First you have to understand that there are $28M in cash equivalents (something over 6 months spending) that are not included under "investments." But this amount of cash yells out "super-conservative" right from the start. The table on p.9 shows

Fair Value of Investments

• Fair value measurements at June 30, 2014 using significant other observable Description inputs (Level 2)
• Certificates of deposit $ 2,157,598
• Municipal bonds 4,039,187
• Mortgage backed securities 6,032,385
• U.S. Treasury securities 3,875,028
• U.S. Corporate bonds 7,019,079
• Other 137,369
• Total $ 23,260,646

The $4M in municipal bonds is a huge red-flag. People invest in munis, despite the low returns, because the proceeds are exempt from Federal and (usually) state taxes. As a non-profit the WMF doesn't pay federal and state taxes. Somebody is asleep at the wheel on this one.

The $6 M in mortgage backed securities seems a bit high, but since mortgages are a huge part of the fixed income (debt) markets, it would seem reasonable to have some of this debt. Note that I'm not saying "mortgage backed derivative securities" There's no reason for those.

More later. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the discussions below, I just had to remove the word "stupid" above. My apologies. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Insurance companies report investment income including and excluding realized capitals gains. This statement did not say. If we assume that realized cap gains are either not in here, or not large, the question is whether the rate of return is reasonable. The next point to make is that one should not relate the investment income to ending assets. The better measure is average invested assets. Without access to that number, a rough surrogate is the average of the latest and prior years assets. The yield is still low, but that make it 1.2% rather than 1.0%

Now examine yields available (Vanguard is a good source):

1. Mortgage backed securities 1.43%
2. Intermediate term treasuries 1.62%
3. Cal Munies 1.52%
4. GNMA 0.21%
5. CD (not from Vanguard) 1.00%
6. Intermediate Corporates 3.13%

Not knowing the exact mix or securities makes the comparison iffy - I picked intermediate term, it may be that there is a mixture of short and intermediate term. Based on the available yields I would have expected more like 1.4%-1.6% so the 1.2% raises questions, but not the "what the hell are you doing" questions. I also see that they used to own a bunch of TIPS which they sold. TIPS have a very low yield, so depending on when they were sold may affect the yield quite a bit.

However, as already noted, this isn't the right venue for such a discussion, and you aren't really interested in my take, you want to hear from WMF, but having spent years doing this, I couldn't resist.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I share Smallbones' query re Munis. Why?--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Municipal bonds pay a lower rate of return than corporate bonds because their interest is exempt from federal income tax and some state taxes, so that the net return to the investor is comparable to that of corporate bonds. As a 501(c)(3), the WMF does not pay federal income tax and probably does not pay state income tax. The investment in municipal bonds would appear to be a mistake. What is the explanation? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, ask Garfield.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Garfield? Link? Ping? Carrite (talk) 23:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Garfield - to be clear, I'm not brushing you off. While I support fully a diversified investment strategy involving different maturities and different risk categories, I'm curious myself about the municipal bonds decision.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

This discussion should be continued somewhere else. There's too much nonsense on this page right now. To be clear, I don't think Garfield is doing anything but implementing the investment policy laid down by the board, and the board policy is what should be reviewed, as well as possibly the investment managers who actually run the money. Where's a good place? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the thinking in this thread, but I think it will be helpful to have some context and an update. When I arrived at the Foundation we were only investing in CD's. After being around for awhile, I realized that this strategy was too conservative and did a revision to the investment statement, which was reviewed by the Audit Committee, that allowed for investment in other short term 1-2 year maturity fixed income investments. I went looking for a firm that would handle the short term reserve fund at a reasonable cost and was only able to find Rockefeller & Company which was willing to do the investing and manage the portfolio for 25 basis points. I asked for a conservative portfolio, which they delivered and turned out to be too conservative. The portfolio was diversified by adding MBS and as noted the TIPS were removed from the portfolio. Around this time, an additional revision was done to the investment policy which was approved by the Board. In order to implement this revision of the investment policy, which included a long term reserve, an RFP for investment advisory services was issued and US Trust was selected. We are in the process now of moving the assets from Rockefeller & Co. to US Trust. With this change, I will need to select a target return for both the short term fund and the long term fund and the allocation to MBS will be reduced. So to respond to some the questions: Why Muni Bonds? Because I asked for a conservative portfolio and the manager making the selection of assets added Muni bonds to diversify the portfolio without adding risk. Why MBS? They are a diversifying asset class that adds diversification and return to the portfolio. Was the allocation to MBS overweight? Yes, it was a tactical allocation to take advantage of a favorable market. The situation has changed and the asset allocation to MBS is in the process of being reduced. Was I happy will the return of the portfolio? No, one of the reasons the old manager was not selected to continue on managing the short term reserve. As for where to have this conversation, please feel free to email me directly at gbyrd@wikimedia.org. Part of our agreement with US Trust is that I can publish the quarterly statements from US Trust as part of the monthly WMF report. So as you look at the statements, feel free to email with any thoughts or ideas. The other thing that is helpful is feedback on the target return for the short term fund and the long term fund. In this thread there was a suggestion of a target return of 1.4% to 1.6%, let me know given the duration of the short term fund, if you agree. I am also open to thoughts on the target return on the long term fund. Also, when talking about investments it is very helpful to me to cite your sources of your comments. Opinions are interesting, but when I work with a investment manager it is helpful to give them sample portfolios or articles on the topic in order to facilitate the discussion. For example, I would be interested in reading the sources for the comments "The $4M in municipal bonds is a huge red-flag" or MBS as a "more aggressive investment strategy". Thank you for your questions and if you have any additional questions please contact me directly.GByrd (WMF) (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I've added a few wikilinks for the general reader, Garfield. If that's impertinent, feel free to revert.

Thank you for the links.GByrd (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This may interest onlookers: Wikimedia Foundation Investment Policy.

Garfield, are our donations being invested in tobacco, alcohol, gambling or fossil fuel companies? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I like cigars, beer, gambling, and gasoline. I don't want any support of the American war machine. The next person is gonna want to divest from companies doing business with Russia for their anti-gay policies. Or divesting from the Middle East for the treatment of women. Or divesting from China for their various human rights abuses. Next think ya know, WMF will own an 80% share in an organic soy bean farm in Canada which uses only rainwater collected by living wage workers and exchanges its products for fair trade handicrafts from Central America. (I'm tempted to make a joke about still being able to achieve a 1.1% rate of return in that situation, but I'll let it go.) Carrite (talk) 16:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There are currently no restrictions on what type of companies the assets of the short term fund are invested in, so there may be tobacco, alcohol, gambling or fossil fuel companies among the holdings of the short term fund at any given point in time. As User:Carrite points out, there is currently no indicators for what is a community consensus on what a socially responsible portfolio looks like. If one day we do find a consensus, then I will be able to ask our fund managers to add a type of investment, such as green energy, or not invest in a company or sector as needed.GByrd (WMF) (talk) 18:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Garfield. If we left the ethics of the WMF's investment choices up to the those who dominate the ethics discussions in this community, we'd be manufacturing sarin. It's really a decision for the board. I'd appreciate it if you would raise the option for their consideration at some point. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Apart from any other "socially responsible" investment issues, how about not investing in any countries where the government blocks or restricts access to Misplaced Pages? (I do not know whether there are any such investments currently.) Neutron (talk) 19:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I've taken the discussion of municipal bonds to User talk: GByrd (WMF). Robert McClenon (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

To close the discussion on this page on the issue of municipal bonds, the reason for them in the portfolio beyond diversification is that in our case the average current yield of our municipal bonds is 2.79% versus the average current yield on our corporate bonds of 2.30%.GByrd (WMF) (talk) 19:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. In general, municipal bonds are not a good investment for a 501(c)(3), but in this case it appears that the research was done. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo...

I hope you'll take this as it's meant--that is, without too much rancor--but I think it's time for you to put up or shut up. I think the problem that (at least some) people are having with your issues with Eric is that, while you're talking about it, you're not actually doing anything about it. If you think Eric should be banned, don't just snark about it on your talk page: actually start a ban discussion on AN, or Arbcom case request, or whatever you think should be done. Because right now, at least from where I'm sitting, all it looks like is that you just want to take potshots at him from the sidelines (and, until this ANI thread, in a place where you forbade him from responding, which is hardly an open discussion), and you don't actually care about fixing this "failure of governance". If you really think this is a problem that needs solving, then it's time to get on your proverbial horse and ride: marshal your various arguments and diffs of evidence and start the discussion in the appropriate place (this talk page ain't it), just like any other editor. Stop talking and start doing. oh, and if you think that "well, I can't start it because I'm Jimbo, and people will think that Jimbo starting a discussion means it won't be fair to Eric"--well, snarking from the sidelines against him isn't much better, so why are you doing that? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Writ Keeper, and I wish you would officially take a stand against EC's continued abuse and construct a ban proposal. He is poisoning our culture by encouraging unfathomable behavior, and an example needs to be made that this is not acceptable. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I would love to have some assistance in doing that. I am hopeful that the Foundation will step in with a strong statement to the effect that abuse of other editors is not acceptable simply due to good or allegedly good content contributions. There is a huge error going on - the idea that good content contributions are so worthwhile that any kind of outrageous longterm abusive behavior is ok. The error is in ignoring what such behavior does to poison the community discourse and drive away good editors.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I would love to see that, too. Jimbo, are you able to facilitate that in any way? Have you asked the Foundation to consider such a statement? StAnselm (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, tonight.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Did Jimbo do something bad?Amanda Smalls 20:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. I did make the point that a particular editor with a long track record of abusive behavior should be banned. Such opinions are welcomed and a normal part of our discourse, but of course if I say it, it has the potential to great Great Drama. But I think that a wider conversation needs to be had about what kind of community we want to be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If that "wider conversation" is limited to the on-wiki environment without enforcing the Terms of Use, it will simply perpetuate the cycle of abuse against you and so many others. What other venues would you suggest for this "wider conversation"? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Those terms of use are so nebulous that they would make any conflict resolution or user conduct management way more difficult. e.g. defining what is "harassment" and at what point one blocks etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey Jimmy, you're in a bit of a Catch 22 with a great point here. Indeed, everything you say seems to be good fodder for Great Drama in the community, and, for the same reason, you're about the worst candidate to call people's attention to that fact. So, like it or not, I'm going to expound a bit on the subject.

A lot of Wikipedians probably think that being the founder of something like Misplaced Pages is all champagne, caviar, hobnobbing with world leaders and movie stars, etc. I'm sure you get your share of that, but I see some drawbacks. In fact, if I were given the chance, I think I'd pass myself. That's because I'm a very opinionated guy who cares deeply about the projects I work on. If my words carried so much weight, I'd have to be very careful where I was swinging them; I'd have to get used to holding my tongue on a lot of issues that I care about. This discussion is a pretty good example; editors express opinions on which other editors should be banned all the time, and they aren't accused of abuse or malicious intent. I'd want the same luxury, and, as you may or may not be aware, I already work very hard to maintain as much of that luxury as I can, despite my family situation.

But you've already got the Midas touch, whether you're putting your seal of approval on a new community initiative or reaching for your breakfast toast. And, at the risk of being called an asskiss (I've been called a lot worse by people who don't know me any better than most, if not all, people who so confidently call you nasty things on the order of "cunt" know you), you're clearly a very intelligent, opinionated guy. You get things that a lot of other people don't, and you see beyond the immediately obvious, as you did when putting your finger on the error in measuring an editor's contributions to bad behavior as a way to decide whether that editor should be allowed to continue misbehaving. I can only imagine what it's like to watch what you've seen grow from a glint in the eye to what Misplaced Pages is now, and not being able to weigh in on most matters simply because the weight of your words would tip the scales til they're flipping through the air. A lot of people would say you've made your bed, and they'd have a point. But I think it's worth reminding the good people here that being a founder doesn't always mean you get to do or say things others can't. Sometimes it means you can't do or say what everyone else can. -wʃʃʍ- 02:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone else notice Jeniffer Lawrences boob on this page?Amanda Smalls 20:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Boobs removed from Commons. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No they are not. See Amanda Smalls 20:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

mattbuck can you revdel the revisions in question and protect that image? There is one other image vandalized by the same user. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

a particular editor with a long track record of abusive behavior should be banned - you don't need a Foundation statement to do that. Just go. - 94.0.109.71 (talk) 20:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you need assistance? Why does this have to be a Foundation issue? Just do it if you're gonna do it. Stop trying to throw your weight around behind the scenes with statements like "I am hopeful that the Foundation will step in" and step up to the plate yourself. I'm not a lawyer, but it was my impression that this kind of thing, for better or worse, is not the Foundation's job. And y'know what? Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't; maybe consensus is with you or maybe it's against you. Or maybe there is no consensus. But in any of those cases, you should just learn to live with the results like the rest of us, even as you work to change it. Part of "everyone can edit" is that sometimes people you don't like or would rather not work with are allowed to edit, too. That's the path you chose for Misplaced Pages; you should start dealing with the consequences. I'm speaking in metaphor here, but shit or get off the pot, man. If you're going to do something, do it. If you're not, please stop talking about it. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Without a proper mandate, to do so would only invite a silly mega-drama and not actually progress things. I do agree with "shit or get off the pot" - I am just saying that suddenly coming out of a general approach of not personally wielding the ban hammer and trying to build appropriate community institutions to deal with problems would be unwise. Building consensus for a positive change and shepherding through some breakthroughs in longstanding community deadlocks is the right way forward. Assistance appreciated!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, What can I do to help?Amanda Smalls 20:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Stick around. Weigh in. Email the Foundation. Find other good editors and build a movement for an RfC to make this issue clear. Ask probing questions at next ArbCom election and make sure that there are clear statements on whether or not we should tolerate abuse and misogyny. There's no one simple thing, but being here, joining the campaign, will make a world of difference.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• "Find other good editors and build a movement for an RfC" Would that be canvassing? J3Mrs (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Oddly, I just redacted and warned an editor for accusing Eric of misogyny (with, of course, as usual, no evidence whatsoever)... . Black Kite (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

But the last few edits at ANI are a great example of the toxic environment. Not your edit necessarily, but the fact that another personal attack was removed and that edit was reverted. So one personal attack stays and the other is redacted. There should at least be some sort of system and some sort of standards. StAnselm (talk) 21:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but there's a big difference between criticism and diagreement, and accusing someone of being a misogynist (with, as per usual, no evidence whatsoever). That's why I redacted that. Black Kite (talk) 21:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that, but surely "Jimbo is unfit to be the public face of Misplaced Pages" is also a personal attack (given that it is not backed up with evidence, either). StAnselm (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It does sound like hard work, though. Even just sticking around can be tough sometimes. StAnselm (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• If you ever accuse me of misogyny again Jimbo then we'll meet at AN/I. Again. Eric Corbett 21:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll just quote you: "dishonest cunts" "fucking cunts" "if you don't want to be called a cunt don't act like one". I won't even get into "you're plainly an idiot" or the abusive comment that started all this in which you attacked a female editor's intelligence. Evidence matters, and it is overwhelming.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

See, Jimbo, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You say the evidence is overwhelming. So put it in an Arbitration request already. If it's as overwhelming as you say, they'll ban Eric just like you want them to. I know lots of people have little faith in Arbcom, but I don't think they're quite that bad. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

OK, enough. Time to put up or shut up please Jimbo . You can have no problem finding diffs that Eric is occasionally incivil, but if you think you can prove that he is a misogynist I think you will find yourself struggling badly (and the simple use of the "C" word doesn't count - I think you know very well how that discussion went). Black Kite (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The "quotation" above of Eric re "cunt" was not a quotation but really a paraphrase, one presumably to personalize what he wrote to make it seem worse, where no personalization was intended. (Here's the actual quote: "Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one.") What Eric actually wrote is (IMO) good advice for anyone and everyone, it wasn't a threat or condition for a name-call against the editor Eric was in dialoge with, as the paraphrase attempts to make it seem. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You keep saying "allegedly good content contributions". I personally find that offensive, at least acknowledge "good content contributions". Do you have any idea how much work Eric and I put into getting Enid Blyton as a tiny example from a start class article into an FA article for instance. All for free, not a cent. Nobody has to put a thing into wikipedia and you can't expect "professional" level civility on a website which relies entirely on people putting in a lot of work without compensation. If you can't respect the work people do here for free, how can you expect those editors to respect you? Sure, you think Eric is outrageously abusive, but if you bothered to stop and read some of his articles you'd at least understand why so many support him, even if you disagree that his content is worth more than his behaviour.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo's behaviour is far, far worse than anything I've ever done. Eric Corbett 21:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• You don't need a movement to start an RfC. Just start one. There's no need to wait until the next cycle of elections--WP:ARBREQ is right there and still open for business. When I'm telling you to do something about it, I don't mean ban him unilaterally. That is, of course, a bad idea. But what I'm trying to get at here is that the community is deadlocked because we don't agree on what the right thing to do here is. And you do not get to make up our minds for us. If you want an answer to "should Eric be banned", then pose that question to the community, and accept their answer, whatever it may be. You don't need a mandate to do that, and we already have the community institutions for it: either AN for the community as a whole, or Arbcom for a smaller group that doesn't get as easily drowned out in white noise. Neither of those institutions are perfect--far from it--but they're what we have. Use them. Is there gonna be a lot of drama? Undoubtedly. You seem to think it's worth the drama, though, so just suck it up and get to it.

  And if you don't want to do that? Fine. But then you should stop talking about Eric in the meantime. You've made your opinion eminently clear already. If you're not interested in seeing if that opinion stands up to the community, stop voicing it. Because no, it's not nice to continually say that someone should be banned. Being banned is not a nice thing. We need to be open about such discussions, but you're not really discussing it, are you? A real discussion would take place on AN or somewhere similar; neutral ground where such discussion actually has the potential to reach a constructive conclusion, whichever way it turns. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, I will appreciate assistance in that. I'm just curious - what's your opinion. Should we be the kind of community where comments like ""dishonest cunts" "fucking cunts" "if you don't want to be called a cunt don't act like one" should be accepted and ignored, no matter what the human cost? I don't think so. I think the biggest detriment to the encyclopedia's quality is toxic behavior like that. It's time to take a stand, and I hope you will support me in that. Without support from you, and others, and the Foundation, there is no hope and we'll go down the path of other communities which succumbed to trolling.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Substitute cunt for fool. Is that ok? The majority of EC's utterance of "cunt" are clealry used that way. Calling someone a cunt can be a serious PA. However it's like porn. You know it when you see it._Two kinds of pork_Bacon|

• It's rather one-sided though, isn't it. Jimbo speaks and his acolytes fall to their knees, Who would have the balls to block Jimbo? I on the other hand am easily blocked. Eric Corbett 21:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  The only reason that you haven't already been banned is your acolytes, though I prefer the term sycophants. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It should be one-sided, and of course it is. The point is that I don't go around abusing people, calling them misogynist terms like "cunt" and using sexist terminology like "who would have the balls to block Jimbo". That kind of behavior is simply unacceptable and it's high time that we said so clearly and without regret.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy, I know you think living in high-end London or wherever you do now means you're now a Brit who fully understands British culture but I really think you should try living for a few weeks in average cities and towns in the UK, especially among working class communities. Calling somebody a cunt is simply an uncouth word like "twat" is in a lesser degree for somebody who is a contemptible ignorant person. "Who would have the balls" or "who would have the bollocks" simply means "who would have the courage". You really do not get that these remarks are in no way intended in a sexist terminology, they're deeply engrained in the British vernacular, at least among those who represent the vast majority of the country. Yes, the c word might still offend a fair few people and it does still tend to be one of the more controversial words especially among Americans but it is definitely not intended in the way that you think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Calling someone a cunt is seriously uncool no matter where you're from. -wʃʃʍ- 00:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually Jimbo, you do go around seriously abusing people. It seems you confine the very worst of your abuse to the very best of the content builders. Among other things, you have called them "toxic personalities" and "lacking in honour". What is really going on with you? Please step back while you still have some respect from editors who are seriously here to build the encyclopedia. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If "cunt" is a misogynist word, why do we have WP:DICK? More to the point, I think you know very well that in many countries "cunt" is not used in that fashion, and the UK is one of them. Black Kite (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You forget that I live in the UK, and "cunt" is considered a personal attack here as it is anywhere. It is not at all acceptable to call people names (of whatever provenance) at Misplaced Pages, and the apologetics for abuse must stop.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a personal attack, no-one is disputing that, but you're claiming it's a misogynist one. If I do something stupid at work, I'm just as likely as anyone else to be called a "stupid cunt" regardless of my genitalia. Would you claim that being called a "dickhead" is a misandrist attack? Black Kite (talk) 21:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Have you ventured into Council house territory before? I can assure you cunt is a well established vernacular.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 22:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no longer WP:DICK. There is "Don't be a jerk" 70.171.253.242 (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you claim that Eric is responsible for all these editors leaving without providing diffs, even when Giano asked for them to indicate Eric is causing half the community to walk out. But take that one article, one of hundreds Eric has contributed to. Nearly 30,000 hits a month. The work that went into that benefits 30,000 people a month, people generally who could not give a monkey's right testicle how it got there and how civil the editor/s who wrote it out. In one year that's 360,000 people, in ten years that's 3.6 million people benefiting from the work put into that one article. Add up all the FAs and GAs he has written and reviewed and in ten years this work is benefiting hundreds of millions of people. Do you see now why we think this is more valuable to us than if he didn't exist on here? We lose a contributor like this, "outrageously uncivil" or not, and that's a loss to that many readers over ten years which you don't seem to care about. Is this an encyclopedia or not? What really matters here? Can you really expect exemplary behaviour from everybody given the lack of compensation for the blood, sweat, and tears put into the project for free? Honestly, I'd rather not see this bad blood on here between the two of you and would rather see Eric getting on editing happily, but at least look at the other side of the argument... What's more important. FA quality work benefiting millions upon millions of people globally or one editor being mildly offended by being called a "dishonest cunt". Put it in perspective. What really matters here? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, are you suggesting that as editors accumulate contributions they also accumulate amnesty regarding atrocious behavior? Is that all one needs to do is improve an article that gets lots of hits then they can all people "cunts"? Rationalobserver (talk) 21:35, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

What you haven't accounted for is the uncountable (because they aren't here to count) number of women and thoughtful kind contributors who have been driven away by a toxic environment in which calling people 'cunt' and similar is considered defensible. What diffs can I show to show you the people who don't edit because we tolerate such? I could show you plenty of diffs of outrageous behavior - but I don't think you are asking for that because you know and (I think) acknowledge that it's true. What you are asking for is evidence that it matters. The only evidence I could possibly give is that during the era when I personally banned people for much less than that, we enjoyed spectacular growth in contributors in no small part because finally, thankfully, people found a place of fun, of love, of lightness, of intellectual joy, rather than the sexist outrageous insult that is rampant online. What really counts is the hundreds of millions of pageviews on art

Yes, we have plenty of editors here who are both productive and "civil" by your standards, but everybody is different. Don't all dedicated contributors count? Couldn't some of the things Eric says be dealt with with less drama and comments?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the block button tends to reduce drama quickly and firmly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? I'm glad you've found it so. Bishonen | talk 23:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC).

• I'm amazed by Jimbo's statement: "the block button tends to reduce drama quickly and firmly" - is he truly editing the same encyclopedia as the rest of us, or even living on the same planet? I clearly recall the RFAR of Jimbo when he'd blocked Bishonen and the subsequent leaks of the arbcom mailing list of the time. Quite astounding. Giano (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be better to say that blocking useless editors tends to reduce drama. Looking at Eric Corbetts, or for that matter my block log and one can see that the blocks were always overturned way before they expired. There has to be another approach than a block.--MONGO 01:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The smugness behind Jimbo's comment turns my stomach. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The number of hits an editor gets at their articles is, or should be, irrelevant. The community does not have one set of standards for prolific contributors and another for everybody else, nor is that a good idea. In fact, it's an absolutely terrible idea. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"The most fundamental problem of politics... is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness" - Henry Kissinger --Epipelagic (talk) 21:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• (in response to Jimbo asking me what my own opinions are) Honestly, Jimbo? I'm reserving judgement until I see the evidence. Historically, I've been more in favor of Eric than not; it seems to me that he does tend to get provoked into saying the things he does. And after all, he does come from a different culture than I do, and who am I to judge him? Lately, though, I've been starting to think that respect for others' cultures needs to be a two-way street, and that, while we should be understanding when someone says something that we find offensive, they in turn should be understanding when we say it's offensive, and at least make an effort to change their patterns. Eric doesn't do the latter, no question. So I see sense in both sides these days; much would depend on the evidence (which must necessarily include context, not just sound bites).

  But like I say, who am I? I'm Jean Valjean! My voice is only important as a single member of the entire community's; I don't get to make calls about whether he should or shouldn't be banned, admin, 'crat, or otherwise. And neither do you, founder notwithstanding. It's the community's decision and nobody else's, and if you insist on talking about it, I wish you would do so in a venue where the community can opine. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are surprised that I ask for your opinion - it does count. I fail to see how he's been provoked. What culture do you imagine he comes from where nasty name calling is accepted? The UK? I live here, and that's not what culture is like here at all - nor anywhere.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• There is a fantastic NLCS game 3 taking place right now Jim. Why don't you watch the last half instead of responding here for a while?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 21:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you say that Eric is responsible for the driving away female contributors by calling people cunts, but genuinely my experience of him and his talk page stalkers is that his involvement in the project has actually encouraged collaboration with quite a few decent editors here and there are many female editors here who've been grateful for his involvement and frequently turn up to thank him. Have you seen this? He honestly seems to attract female editors and article collaboration with them rather than repel them. There are many textbook civil editors on wikiepdia who regularly turn up on Eric's talk page and thank him for assistance and are willing to overlook anything he might say and see the bigger picture. Your view of Eric is entirely dominated by those negative comments and drama which you witness without having first hand experience of seeing that actually a lot of the time he has a way of actually increasing collaboration and improving content and mutual respect between editors if he is approached in the right way. Sure, I'd rather Eric kept what he thinks to himself at times like most of us do here to simply avoid the reaction, but I do think it's bleeding obvious that the current way of dealing with it is not working and creates more problems than what we being with. Blocks tend to inflame the situation more, I'm not sure why you think that is the solution, in fact I'm pretty sure a few weeks ago you said that abolishing civility blocks was a good idea to reduce the drama and backlash. OK you block Eric for calling somebody something, what about the huge backlash and admin circus act which follows. Is this really dealing with the actual problem, the root of it?? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Luis Suarez is a great footballer who scores brilliant goals and helps other players score great goals. But when he goes and bites someone, or stamps on them, or abuses them, no-one says he should be excused because of that. He gets a ban, for violence and for bringing the game into disrepute, and sometimes he (sort of) apologises. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that Suarez is paid a shit load of money on a weekly basis and football has very specific rules which are generally universally enforced. Eric works here for free and wikipedia's rules are about as contradictory and universally unenforced as you can get.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Surely, Mr Wales, you must realise the irony of using the WMF in this way to further a (as yet unsubstantiated) personal vendetta against an individual whose work (and resulting click-through, views and donations) pays the salaries of those very same WMF staff? WMF isn't simply gifted funds because of the excellent governance arrangements it has in place (which you admit have failed anyway) - content drives donations. I have no problem with your having personal disagreements with others but the petulant manner in which you have gone about fighting this particular battle is unbecoming. Respect for you and this project is diminished by your conduct, in this instance, not that of Mr Corbett. You dislike Mr Corbett and his style (which is perfectly fine) but you clearly haven't yet gathered enough evidence to come even close to substantiating your claim that he is a misogynist or that he is driving editors from this project. I wonder if the WMF would assist me in making a case against those editors far worse, far more divisive and far more toxic than Mr Corbett could ever be? I think not. St★lwart 22:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no irony. There is no vendetta. The facts are very well substantiated - I have given exact quotes which no one denies. And my clear and obviously correct point is that his behavior is destructive to Misplaced Pages because it costs us good contributors who are not willing to put up with his abuse. Content absolutely does drive donations, which is why it is critical for us to get rid of editors who drive way good content contributors through abusive behavior. The case for his behavior being destructive is absolutely clear, unless you really do think it is ok to call people 'cunt' and to attack the intelligence of other contributors in the course of what should be routine editing. What more evidence do you need?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you're talking a big game here. Gather up your evidence--your actual evidence, not just assertions--and walk the talk. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 23:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have given exact quotes which no one denies. Wrong. (See above.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Mr Wales, you've given "exact quotes" that amount to no more "disruption" or "destruction" than the average Australian would experience on a daily basis. What you've described amounts to no more than routine playground vernacular. You'd have a tough time getting an Australian high school student reprimanded for that sort of language, let alone suspended. Yet here it suggests "misogyny", a failure of governance and disruption that must be stamped out. What say you of the systematic gaming, bullying and unfounded accusations used by others on a daily basis to actually drive people from this project? People you actively support and encourage while those using "bad words" suffer the full force of the WMF they fund? There is no irony? St★lwart 00:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I've really had quite enough of this. Jimbo Wales is a . Now block me. Eric Corbett — Preceding undated comment added 23:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
• Can we just block Eric now and be done with all of this drama? There are clearly two sides to this and I feel editors have had enough of Eric's un-civility and attitude from remarks he makes in his edit summaries to making snide remarks on his talk-page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  Doctor Freud might suggest that Eric has an unhealthy relationship with Misplaced Pages, and he is subconsciously trying to justify his own banning, which would serve his persecution and messiah complexes. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  I don't think Jimbo needs evidence here, all you have to do is see Eric's edits over time. Take a dive through and im sure you will be more than convinced. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  What of? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Can we just block Jimbo now and be done with all of this drama? There are clearly two sides to this and I feel editors have had enough of Jimbo's un-civility and attitude from remarks he makes in his edit summaries to making snide remarks on his talk-page. LHM 23:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  No, the reasoning behind it is that Eric has had a long history of this with multiple editors, I can agree that Jimbo should not have been feeding into it but do not see a reason for a block on that side. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  No, Kk87, I don't think you quite understand what's going on here. Jimbo's history of antagonism toward some of the very best content creators we have is quite long: Giano and Bishonen are a couple more, in addition to Eric Corbett. This project would be better off if Jimbo left it, never returned, and this page was deleted and salted. LHM 23:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  Lith I just want to say that there is already an arbcom case involving Eric's conduct here with another issue: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force as for the others I cant speak for them. its one thing piling up on top of another that is a bad trend here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm late to this argument but I don't see Jimbo abusing people like this Eric person. Took a look through his user contribution page since 1 July and noted the following:

Have you got nothing better to do? Why not try writing an article yourself? Or what about taking a long walk off a short pier?
Let's face the facts. You're an incompetent editor determined for whatever reason to add unnecessary clutter to an article that you couldn't have written even in your dreams. Do you understand now?
Well think again.
That might be a first. Have you ever significantly improved anything?
When did you start reasoning?
I appear to have overestimated you Alfie; obviously you can't read.
Who cares what the article says? Haven't you got anything better to do?
Only in your rather ill-informed opinion.
I'm annoyed that you're wasting my time.
Bloodofox is even more incompetent than you are, so his displeasure is of no consequence to me, or I dare say Sagaciousphil either.
Unlike you I do not consider myself to be a superior source to the OED
It's you that's simple.
You really are a tedious twat.
I learned years ago that arguing with a fool make you the greater fool.
Waiting to see if this gets blanked. Nyth83 (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That is evidence right there, yet some turn their heads because of friendship. if this were by any new editor I am sure they would be blocked by now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Kk87, in an ideal world, Eric wouldn't swear, I'd miss less errors when reviewing or writing articles and we'd have no need of drama boards.....but it isn't and here we are. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Casliber: That's why we have WP:BATTLEGROUND, I agree nobody is perfect people will swear but considering all of the diffs above I think it is fair to say that this is long term abuse against editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Knowledgekid87: - a converse view is that the editor in question is very helpful and industrious around 90-95% of the time but has a short temper. Contrast that with editor or editors who contribute little content but spend a great deal of time at drama boards, Jimbo's talk page and/or arbitration pages arguing about......lots of things and being divisive. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

By that logic, a kid who gets good grades and does volunteer work around school shouldn't be punished if they punch a kid at recess. A bit of a vulgar (read: clumsy) analogy, but if I were to make the types of incivil/(clearly) attacking edits Eric has made that I've seen for even a minute in a place where people could see it, I'd probably be blocked, or at least raised at a noticeboard with much less biased discussion. Saying that someone who contributes good things but 5-10% of the time blows up in ways that violate policy should be given a different set of circumstances is a bit like saying the President (in specific, the POTUS) should be above law and appeal. (Whether or not you believe that's what's actually happening in either circumstance is less relevant in this analogy as opposed to actual policy and law in the situations.) - Purplewowies (talk) 07:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Jimmy, I think this discussion raises something more fundamental. This is no longer your website—you started it, yes, but it has grown beyond your control; beyond he control of any individual. The day-to-day running of the project is down to the administrators, who are appointed by the community to serve the community, and when administrators disagree, we have the arbitration committee. You have, wisely, in recent years (explicitly or implicitly) adopted a role closer to that of a constitutional monarch, a ceremonial figurehead, than that of a leader. Your talk page has long been used as a forum for discussion of all sorts of issues. At times, it has been a productive venue and a good place to raise general issues that don't being elsewhere. But recently, your comments have produced significantly more heat than light. And that is because you have, in my opinion, departed from your role as a constitutional monarch; constitutional monarchs have a right to be informed, to advise and to warn, and they occupy an incredibly rare and incredibly special position in the governance of their nation. But to continue occupy that position, and to discharge its duties effectively, the constitutional monarch has to remain above the fray, out of the day-to-day running of the nation, and somewhat detached (some might even say aloof) from the coal face. That means that they do not get to use their position to advocate for their preferred solution to the problems of the age, they do not act as though they are above their nation's laws (in our case, WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:POLEMIC, and where the community they serve is divided they should be extremely careful not to exacerbate those divisions. If the monarch fails to discharge those responsibilities, one of two things happens—the monarch abdicates, or a constitutional crisis ensues which probably results in the abolition of the monarchy in its entirety, without even a ceremonial or traditional role. So I am asking you, because I care deeply about this project and I believe that you are inflicting wounds on this community which impair it from carrying out its functions, which are quite simple: to write and maintain an encyclopaedia. Everything which does not contribute to the fulfilment of that function is a distraction. Editors who spend the majority of their Misplaced Pages time on talk pages, noticeboards, and other fora dedicated to meta aspects of the project rather than writing or maintaining the encyclopaedia are a problem and sooner or later usually end up blocked or banned. Jimmy, you need to choose whether you want to accept the responsibilities of the role you have chosen (and thus, to put it bluntly, hold your tongue, especially when expressing your opinion would exacerbate deep divisions within the community), or you need to abdicate and behave like any other editor, subject to the same rules. The middle ground is a constitutional crisis, which will only distract further from the encyclopaedia and thus is not in anyone's best interest. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:48, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  I'm thinking Cincinnatus is needed on occasion. Not that I would support Jimbo blocking any editors himself, least of all Eric Corbett or little ole me for that mattter.--MONGO 01:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• HJ has nailed it in a diplomatic manner. Sorry Jimbo. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Exceptionally well.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:15, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yep, nailed it is right. Well said. St★lwart 06:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree with HJ. Giano (talk) 07:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Nah, never liked the Constitutional Monarch analogy very much (for starters). I see a very woolly contribution, boiling down to: Jimbo shouldn't have an own opinion, and when he does, he should be silent about it. Nah, not the best option for Misplaced Pages. I support Jimbo's approach in this very much. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with User:Francis Schonken and respectfully disagree with User talk:HJ Mitchell in that Jimbo has as much right to an opinion as any other editor. However, my original point is that when he complains idly without doing anything, it is seen as a failure of leadership, and he should know that if he complains without doing anything, it is seen as a failure of leadership. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• ? In case you hadn't noticed: Jimbo's leadership (which is however limited, see his own comments above) comes out of this untarnished. A leader does not implement an action: he points out the problem, others do what has to be done. Those not doing what has to be done diminish the leadership, not those who do, after the problem has been carefully explained. The only thing worse for the stature of the leadership is that the leader can't find a single soul to do what has to be done, and would do it himself in the end. That would equal zero leadership, not leading anyone but himself. So all those asking "please Jimbo push the button on Eric C yourself" might just have been a bit more honest to the community, they envy Jimbo's leadership, and want to damage it, more than that they want to protect it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I think the above post is one of the most pompous and pretentious pieces of drivel that I've ever seen written of Misplaced Pages. The only person likely to applaud it is Jimbo himself. Giano (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments for Jimbo et al.

First, I agree with User:WritKeeper that it is time for Jimbo to put up or shut up. Jimbo: Please stop making snarky comments as if there was nothing else that you can do. I understand that you don't want to use your reserved power to ban users. However, when you don’t use that reserved power and don’t use any of the options available to general editors, you aren’t exercising leadership. What you can do, yourself, without the need for an RFC or for WMF action, is to go to the ArbCom. You can ask them to open a case against any editor or editors that you think are poisoning the culture of the English Misplaced Pages. (Also, you can present evidence in an open case.) If you really think that a particular editor is a negative to Misplaced Pages, ask the ArbCom to act. You created the ArbCom so that you wouldn’t have to ban users yourself; you can ask them to ban a user. The ArbCom has, in at least one case, banned an abusive content creator. Don’t just complain. Please, do something or be quiet. (The editor in question has been blocked for 48 hours, but the block will expire, and doesn’t take the place of requesting arbitration.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, don’t just complain about Commons. If it is as bad as you say, get the WMF to do something about it rather than just holding your nose and ignoring it. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Part of the trouble is that the WMF have no power over Commons. A large part of the recent trouble at Commons was about demonstrating that WMF had no power over Commons; one Commons bureaucrat made bad and harmful decisions re some bad behaviour by another Commons admin, just to spite WMF because he could. Commons then chose to support him in this. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Second, Jimbo mentioned getting a statement from the WMF and mentioned the possibility of an RFC. I have previously suggested that the WMF should conduct a survey of editors on civility enforcement and other issues. An RFC is the standard Misplaced Pages method for surveying active editors. (I had suggested a statistical survey including both active editors and former editors, but an RFC is a valid approach.) However, there is no need to wait for an RFC (or a statistical survey) to run its course or for the WMF to issue a statement to request arbitration. The two processes can run in parallel. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Third, the WMF could also review the governance and civility enforcement process, which is seriously flawed in at least two respects. The first problem has to do with blocks. Because a block can be lifted by any administrator, and because policy is that blocks are preventive rather than punitive, civility blocks are short-lived. Once any administrator lifts the block, further discussion of its appropriateness is mooted because there is nothing left to discuss. Should there be a more coordinated process for review of blocks? Should the arbitrary lifting of blocks be treated as wheel warring? Should blocks sometimes be punitive? The second problem is that “the community” at the noticeboards is not an effective mechanism for dealing with divisive users or divisive issues. Does “the community” at the noticeboards even represent the larger community of editors? Is some sort of governance reform needed? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Not that anyone cares, but this essay began during the first (at least I think it was first) EC Arb Case. I still feel it contains useful civility concepts the panda ₯’ 10:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

One of the concepts that it contains is that civility blocks should not be reversed without cause. I agree. As long as the arbitrary lifting of civility blocks is accepted (when it should perhaps be treated as wheel warring), abusive editors will persist in being abusive. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This is all rather dull

Well, here we all are again: Eric has said the 'C' word and some people are having fits of the vapours, others are having hissy fits and the great majority probably could't care less. Care is actually an interesting word in this particular case because surprisingly perhaps of Jimbo and Eric, I suspect it's Eric who cares most about the project. I believe that the reason that Jimbo won't put his money with his mouth is because he can't be bothered to spend the time researching diffs and typing up a case against Eric - it takes time and commitment - neither of which I have seen much evidence of recently from Jimbo towards this project. Oh yes, he loves the TV appearance, travelling the globe and opining on matters upon which I sometimes feel he's ill qualified to comment, but life 'aint all jet-set glamour - at least it's not for most of us. Now take Eric, not a lot of glamour sitting at home, spending hours researching pages, then typing them up, and when he's not doing that for his own articles, he's generally copyediting for other people. What does he get in return? Quite frankly - not a lot. We hear much of his insults to others - and yes his short temper does seem to gain control sometimes (incidentally. in England, there's nothing at all misogynistic about the C word; it's just a stronger version of dick, prick, wanker, arse and utter fool), but when some utter fool refers to his content work as 'alleged' - can you really blame Eric for losing it? However, Misplaced Pages has its fair share of idiots and Eric should learn to be more tolerant of them, but we are not here to judge Eric - there are proper places and procedures for doing that. Jimbo needs to learn to stop stirring up trouble and making snarky comments unless he's prepared to do something about it - or at least ask one of his courtiers here to do it for him. Jimbo's continued, current trouble-making comments woudl not be tolerated from other editors. So make a case or shut up. Giano (talk) 12:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to say something similar - I'd rather be called a cunt than an "alleged" good writer - incidentally with that last adverb Jimbo it's a pretty disparaging slur on the whole Featured Article process BTW. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is Giano seriously invoking WP:V on the question of whether Eric behaves badly or not? That much isn't the question, it's what to do about it.

Is WP to issue a pair of magic hats where the wearer just doesn't have to follow WP:CIVIL? If so, who gets one? Could Peter Damian reapply? (I'd like to see his positive contributions here even more than Eric's). Will there be a RfSwearyHat process, where a contributor sufficiently hard working gets their just and profane reward?

If you think SwearyHat is a stupid idea, then think for a moment - isn't that what we've already done? If we are to, let's be honest about it. I can understand how the single unique founder gets one (and "alleged" was unhlepful snark, no matter who said it), but is that to be the only one? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Question: Who has "the vapours" and "hissy fits"? Answer: Women, children, and maybe effeminate men. As in:

"Uncle Henry... and utter lack of patience with feminine timidities and vaporings." (Gone With the Wind)

"the demanding diva had a major hissy fit when she had to wait for her trailer to be ready" (Merriam-Webster)

They're related to female hysteria, and in this era they're meant to belittle complaints. 70.171.253.242 (talk) 21:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Eric isn't a misogynist. He's an equal opportunity ass. In working class London, where I worked for a few years in the 80s, "cunt" was a term of abuse applied exclusively to men and (usually paired with "dumb" and a chuckle) was even a coarse term of endearment. In Australia, where I now live, it doesn't have that latter use but is applied almost exclusively to men, and means a callous bastard. I'm just noticing it creeping into fringe discourse applied - very rarely - to women here, and when it is it is dripping with all the misogyny it seems to carry in the US. I assume it's creeping here from there.

Attempting to characterise Eric as a misogynist is draining your case. Those who know him well here know he's just an ass. In my opinion, he should be blocked for a long time. For being an ass. Admittedly, he's often an ass to people who are more trouble than they're worth. He's fairly discriminating in his assness. But not always. He does get it wrong. I supported the last lengthy block, and supported lifting it early because he showed some signs of self-awareness about the problem. He's lapsed and needs to be blocked again. For a long time. For being an ass.

Calling people cunts and dicks and telling them to grow a pair shouldn't be tolerated in any civilised 21st century work environment, and this is a work environment. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

And neither would standing around the water cooler complaining for hours on end and not doing anything constructive.....at any work environment. So you'd prefer to take a character slur as an insult than a swearword?Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If you're saying gruffness and repeated (if naive) use of sexist language is less toxic than character assassination, then I agree. That is the sad thing about all this. Eric's treatment of people he deems to be fools is beyond the pale for a civilised workplace, but only just beyond. It's an edge case, and just (but firmly and obviously) over the edge in my opinion.

Sad, because this flamboyant sideshow is obscuring the real civility problem here. The real toxicity. Some of the very worst characters here are strutting about waving admin badges in people's faces, never using a word like "cunt". While many admins here are saints without whom this place would disintegrate, some are pure sadists. And there are many long-term users who are patent psychopaths, who've never called anyone a "little shit", but have driven off hundreds or even thousands of well-meaning volunteers, while our wisest admin got blocked by Jimmy for losing her temper once, and calling someone that. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You are just as likely to hear the word cunt on a polo pitch as a football pitch. In both places it's said in the heat of the moment and it's not attractive. But this is not the place to be discussing its merits and use by one particular editor. Jimbo knows that full well. All I am saying is that Jimbo needs to make a case or drop it. This continued sniping (hoping someone will do it for him) from the sidelines is no good to man nor beast. Giano (talk) 13:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that the spoken word is, indeed, heat-of-the-moment. On Misplaced Pages you actually have to type it, then click save - in the time it takes to click save, Jiminy Cricket should have time to kick in and prevent one from actually clicking the button. Unfortunately, many people don't have that conscience to think of the repercussions, or count to 10 before clicking save the panda ₯’ 13:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that used to be known as MONGO-itis.--MONGO 14:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

How about we calm down, and take a minute to breathe. Editing while frustrated never results in progress.Amanda Smalls 13:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I just want to say that after Eric was blocked the drama of course did not end there. Some of Eric's supporters lashed out at the admin who blocked him , bringing up past edit stats as a way of an attack. Is this what it is coming down to? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• It clearly is what it's coming down to. We are here to write an encyclopedia, so if someone is not pulling their weight, it's hardly surprising if someone points that out. Chillum just loves the attention these blocks bring him, and Jimbo lives in a fools paradise surrounded by these attention seeking sycophants, all of them yearning for a pat on the head from a self-appointed 'constitutional' monarch who would not know the meaning of the term if it jumped up and bit his behind. By all means, condemn the use of the C word (I do too), but let's not be hypocritical about why some are doing so. Giano (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Do you have any diffs to prove this about Chillum or any admin that takes a stand against established editors for being in the wrong? The things admin here enforce are things set by consensus, if you believe the admin is acting badly then report it with evidence otherwise don't just throw accusations into the air. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• My takeaway from this is that repeatedly calling users with whom you disagree a "cunt" or an "idiot" is acceptable as long as you are Eric Corbett, but calling Eric Corbett a misogynist is unacceptable, or as they say around here, "beyond the pale". That Eric would threaten to take someone to AN/I over a nasty label is embarrassingly hypocritical. I'm not sure why any respected editors defend him, and as was said above, his behavior would never be tolerated in a work environment, so why is it tolerated here? Rationalobserver (talk) 20:09, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Calling Eric Corbett a misogynist is unacceptable, or as they say around here, "beyond the pale" because it is wrong, and undermines any argument based on it. Waving about the misogynist label in an attempt to get him sanctioned will only result in hoards of people (who otherwise might have allowed that, yes, sanctions are now overdue for his unacceptable equal-opportunity oafishness) to rise in his defence. It is a stupid tactical blunder. This farce couldn't have been scripted better. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed 100%, he does nothing but piss others off and is already subject to an arbcom case involving his behavior. I don't care how good of an editor he is what he is doing is showing he is unable to work with others. Yes I know he has made friends with some I know he gets along with some as well but that does not excuse the bitter taste he puts in everyone else's mouths. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• So if you feel so strongly, why are you discussing it here, and not in the correct forum? Launch a case, you have the power and ability - so why not get on and do it? Or is it that this is a nice safe place to say what one likes? I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is not a Catholic confessional - Jimbo is not the Pope - he's an editor just like you and me. However, he is a more manipulative one and he wants someone here to launch a case for him - that way, if it all goes horribly wrong, guess who gets covered in shit. On the other hand, if it all goes well, you will be his special friend for....well a few days. Funny old world is Misplaced Pages. Giano (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• There is already an arbcom case that involves Eric's behavior so it would just get pointed to that. As for Jimbo if you have issues with him then that is another story here I don't expect Jim to do anything as there are already things in place that can deal with this. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Really? Why are you here mouthing then? Giano (talk) 20:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I can ask you the same thing why are you here? It would be better to address this through the Misplaced Pages foundation than on here. As for the earlier reply I was agreeing with Rationalobserver. the thing Jimbo can try to do is work with the foundation to help heal this divide. No editor regardless of how many contribs they have should be held above everyone else this includes Jimbo. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I agree, and I think it's more than a little bizarre to see so many adults defending what's obviously unacceptable behavior. I'll bet Giano wouldn't let his child or employee call him a "cunt" or an "idiot", so why does he want to defend Eric's propensity for such immature and unintelligent responses? Misplaced Pages is losing editors, and it's not just because of reverts, it's also because the culture here has degraded to the point that most other websites are more civil, which is ironic, IMO, as this place ought to be a bastion of intellectualism, not barroom profanity. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm quite sure that my children have called me far worse things than 'idiot' - I'm confident enough to live with it. If I heard them call me a cunt, they would be well aware of my displeasure - probably painfully! However, Eric is not my child and I'm certainly not his father, so I won't presume to lecture him. The point I am attempting to make, is that there is a forum and a procedure for dealing with these matters, and it's not another editor's talk page - especially when the editor whipping up the hate (Jimbo) has banned the other editor (Eric) from that said talk page. The distressing truth is that, for all his posturing, these days Jimbo is just another editor - he has no more real power here than you or me. Yet he uses his page to attack other editors and expects some form of royal/diplomatic immunity. Well those days are over. He needs to prosecute Eric officially or shut up - not sit her like some embarrassingly naked emperor.Giano (talk) 21:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• My point was not that you are Eric's father or that you should lecture him, but if you defend his abusive behavior you passively condone his actions, which negatively affects the community at large, as evidenced by this most recent chapter in the time-sink that is Eric Corbett. I.e., the only reason that Eric isn't already banned is because of editors like you who make apologies for him, suggesting above that since, IYO, "cunt" is not that bad of a word in the UK, every editor of Misplaced Pages must learn to deal with it, versus taking a stand and asking (read: compelling) Eric to stop. From the Urban Dictionary: "Cunt: Derogatory term for a woman. Considered by many to be the most offensive word in the English language." Rationalobserver (talk) 21:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• You really must learn to read what is written, digest it and then not make false assumptions. I don't think you will find me apologizing for Eric anywhere, or suggesting that others must learn to live with the term. Eric's a grown man he can fight his own battles - except of course for when he's not allowed to explain or defend himself. I am suggesting that a case against Eric be heard in the correct forum, and he be allowed to defend himself. This is not the correct forum and he cannot defend himself. Ill-informed comment from those such as you in the wrong place is not helpful. Giano (talk) 21:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Your response reads as a thinly veiled attack on my comprehension skills. FTR, above you said: "Eric has said the 'C' word and some people are having fits of the vapours, others are having hissy fits and the great majority probably couldn't(sic) care less." This comment obviously downplays the concern, and it even suggests that a bunch of silly people are throwing "hissy fits" over a perfectly acceptable word such as "cunt". E.g., incidentally. in England, there's nothing at all misogynistic about the C word; it's just a stronger version of dick, prick, wanker, arse and utter fool. Is this not an attempt to re-define the term so that it's not as offensive as those throwing "hissy fits" are making it out to be? "Cunt: All senses of this word are vulgar slang and are very strongly tabooed and censored. The meanings that refer to a woman and a contemptible person are used with disparaging intent and are perceived as highly insulting and demeaning. There are many words used to refer to people in sexual terms. However, to call a person a cunt, especially a woman, is one of the most hateful and powerful examples of verbal abuse in the English language." Rationalobserver (talk) 21:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• You seem to be somewhat irrational, and reading between lines things which aren't written. This is obviously a personal issue for you, so I will leave you ponder it and further research the word cunt and it's uses. I will agree with you, that when used against a woman it's very horrible, and I've not known Eric do that. However, I'm not sure that in the 21st century we should have vulgarities that are worse for one sex than the other. I tend to think of both sexes as equal. Whatever, this is going off at a tangent. I've more than made my point about there being a time and a place to try Eric, and this is not it. Good evening. Giano (talk) 22:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• "'My research into the gender dynamics of online discussion forums found that men tend to be more adversarial, and to tolerate contentious debate, more than women,' said Susan Herring to a reporter from Discovery News. 'Women, in contrast, tend to be more polite and supportive, as well as less assertive ... and (they) tend to be turned off by contentiousness, and may avoid online environments that they perceive as contentious.'" Editors who regularly call people "cunts" and "idiots" contribute to a contentious environment that subsequently discourages women from participating, thus driving new users away and inhibiting the continued growth of this project. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)I'm British. There's been such bullshit written about the c-word not being sexist in the UK. It's not used in the same way as in the US (i.e. it's not used to describe women) but in the UK it's without doubt nevertheless considered offensive to women however it is used. A 2005 report commissioned by Ofcom on offensive language in broadcasting, and cited by The Guardian newspaper here stated "Most offensive word to majority, and never really acceptable (though some might occasionally use). Very strong word and particularly disliked by women." DeCausa (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
• Another to help slay this ridiculous canard: http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidance-language-full/ Andy Dingley (talk) 22:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, it might be true that a lot of women find the word offensive and consider it the most vulgar word. But where I come from (southern Wales), it's pretty common among younger guys to call somebody it, much like "don't be a dick" or "what a twat", and not in any way intended to be offensive to women when directed at a male. In fact I've often heard it used in friendly banter such as "Yes!! I won £10,000 on the lottery last night. The friend says "Lucky cunt". In fact Sir Bob Geldof called Russell Brand it on live national television here. Is he this grossly evil human being who wants to offend women? Did the audience walk out in shock horror? I think not. However, when it is angrily directed at a woman then it is seen as one of the most offensive things you can say and I'm pretty sure Eric would never call an editor known to be a woman it. Honestly, I'd rather than nobody swore at each other full stop on wikipedia as I know different people can be offended by different things, but I don't think of it as this huge taboo. Yes, it's stronger than "idiot", "prick" or "dick", but if you think it's uncommon then you've obviously not spent time in working class communities and schools around the UK. Do I think we should really be calling each other it on wikipedia? Nope. But I do think that some of the psychological bullying and other methods on here are a lot more degrading to individuals.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is neither youngsters' banter, nor a television show with whatever celebrity. In general, the Misplaced Pages community doesn't accept the name-calling along those lines, even Dr. Blofeld's opinion concurs on that point. It's up to Eric to accept that or not. Thus far Eric refused, when asked politely. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:20, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I see a few possible, credible outcomes:

1. Eric gets a clue and drops the language. No big deal, the rest of us seem to manage. We all get to do something sensible. Haters continue to hate, but no-one else cares about them. This appears "unlikely".

2. We throw Eric to the wolves. There's justification. There's enough support for this. We survive afterwards.

3. We allow Eric to continue, possibly making it official (an idea as good as the Pokemon: namespace was). We should then stop complaining about a decision we've made, but we won't.

Now I can live with 3a. I don't like it, but I'm not one of those obsessed with him. What concerns me though is 3b. We allow Eric this licence, but then every other foul-mouthed divisive troll starts to demand it too. After all, why can't they? We're based on "pillars", objective principles that apply equally to all. We have a problem with this already: we're inconsistent in their application (look at what was done to Alan Liefting recently), we have a big problem where all admins are infallible (and will block anyone who says otherwise). ANI is a popularity contest, even ANEW is getting that way. Commons, previously a mellow backwater, has grown worse than WP. We need (far more than this one editor minor issue) to address this subjective inconsistency. Eric and Giano are some of its biggest critics, and not unreasonably so. Yet we cannot give Eric a privileged mouthpiece to swear at our wrongs if doing so relies on using exactly that same uneven privilege to the nomenklatura. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the Misplaced Pages community has general expectations for behaviour in the same way that world religions like Christianity have a moral code for how human beings should be. In practice what percentage of people follow them all exactly? That's life isn't it. It's difficult to really enforce anything on a public website in which volunteers are here donating time and resources anyway out of their own goodwill. A large part of wikipedia in all honesty does actually function like a school playground in which "he called me the c word" type complaints to the teacher as Stuart I think it was said is unlikely to be reprimanded let alone expelled for. Yes, we would all like to think of ourselves as a professional encyclopedia company rather than a schoolyard which would typically have editors who mutually respect each other and display maturity in discussing development and produce a lot of content without drama or attacks, but wikipedia is not a professional institution with editors on a payroll. Basically Jimmy and the foundation want wikipedia to have a formal code and expectation of editors in institutions such as the BBC etc, but are unwilling to compensate people for producing content and for following that code. What can you really expect in a volunteer community? Of course Jimmy has the vision of an ideological community in which everybody is nice but the world is not like that and if you seriously think that disagreements and occasional heated arguments from time to time don't break out even in real world businesses and institutions with sweary personal attacks then you're deluded. I'm sure sometimes they're uncannily like Glengarry Glen Ross LOL!! For the record, I don't think it's that much to ask for editors to avoid calling each other names most of the time, but it is inevitable that some editors have less control over their feelings than others. Do we ban anybody with a temper? Or just those who have a temper too frequently for comfort?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Re. "It's difficult to really enforce anything on..." Don't think so, see my proposal here --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we have general rules on behaviour. We should follow and enforce them, to the extent of banning content contributors.

If we don't do this, we no longer have rules, we have guidance. Guidance for an uncontrolled, life-tenured clique of judges who detect, try and punish wikicrimes as a single person. Implementation of such has thus become subjective. Eric rails against this, but his approach for doing so has come to rely on the same cliques and untouchable celebrity as what he complains of! He's gone from being a critic of the problem to becoming its embodiment. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:05, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, if it is that important to the website then it needs to be universally enforced and no double standards which frankly plague the site currently. And civility needs to be extended beyond sweary personal attacks to psychological bullying and stalking if it is to be fairly dealt with.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• At the risk of sounding like a parrot: do something about it, in the correct place, instead of complaining endlessly here. You are all like Jimbo, you want to berate Eric and incite others where he has no redress, but have no inclination to launch a case yourselves. Giano (talk) 11:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, who's complaining here, without doing something somewhere else? I replied "don't think so" to the complaints and did something somewhere else. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Well! I don't think it counts if you don't notify him on his talk page. Otherwise, it's rather like hanging a dead man. Giano (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Seems a rather clueless comment. Quoting from the proposal I linked to: "(Eric Corbett's) ... talk page ... protected ." If you can't stop complaining doing something elsewhere, please at least stop the complaining for reading what others did. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm no prude but.

Can someone remove the crotch shot pic?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 21:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. But yes.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed the 'Talk Page Stalker' template. Images were being added to that then appearing on this page. AnonNep (talk) 21:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the image is now protected locally and at commons, I've restored the template. Tutelary (talk) 22:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Template protected for autoconfirmed users only. User adding explicit pics was redlink name not IP. If it happens again someone just remove Misplaced Pages:TPS/banner (and surrounding double brackets) from top of this page. AnonNep (talk) 22:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ohhh, so that's why someone vandalised a picture of a cat. I do wonder about vandals sometimes. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I bet the same person posted the two Jennifer Lawrence pics, put the porn shot on the Main Page, and did this. They're all the same modus operandi (Logs). Wnt (talk) 02:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Respect

Hey Jimbo. I've only been an active editor for a few months, and unfortunately I've already witnessed exchanges that are remarkable in their ferocity and disregard for others' feelings. All too often, Wikipedians seem to lose sight of the issues at hand and resort to personal attacks and displays of disrespect in surprisingly petty matters.

What I find particularly interesting is that this behavior would not be tolerated in other online communities I've been a part of, and none of these communities had a formal process to deal with unwanted behavior like Misplaced Pages does. It got me thinking about what constitutes respect in those communities and how it is enforced. As far as I can tell, respect is defined by the values that everyone in the community shares; these values seem to be unwritten, but emergent in every member's behavior. And they are enforced by individual members of the community acting on their personal values. When one member of the community disrespects another, members of the healthiest communities immediately step up in plain site to say that's not what the community is about. Showing disrespect only puts the community's respect for that member on the line. In contrast, disrespect seems to be ignored- and sometimes encouraged- by Wikipedians who are not on the receiving end or addressed after the fact in committees and administrative boards. I think the silence sends a clear message to newcomers about what they are considering being a part of, and it's hardly flattering.

I'm curious what you think about respect within the Wikipediaverse. As a community, do we share the values that would add up to basic respect for others in most other communities? Are such values not relevant to our community, because Misplaced Pages is about building an online encyclopedia and not giving people warm fuzzies? It seems like iour values would run deeper than that. Or is it possible that Wikipedians have grown complacent and won't consistently stick up for these values because they've seen them violated so many times? And the $1m question: how can we promote respect in the community before we have to worry about enforcing it? Best. -wʃʃʍ- 22:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Your comments and questions are very wise. I have much to say about them.

First, our community has fundamental values that are very strong traditions and are deeply opposed to personal attacks and misogyny and so on. But they are also very fundamentally about hearing people out, even people who are not mainstream nor being kind and thoughtful. Both of these traditions are valid and have value, but they are also in tension. We don't want to be a community that is a police state where any form of dissent gets you blocks, but neither do we want to be some kind of 'radical free speech zone' where the most insulting and abusive behavior is tolerated.

Second, until a certain point in time, I personally made decisions to "thread the needle". My judgments were far from perfect - no human being could be perfect. A better approach was apparent and we took it - move that decision making into the community, building institutions over time to make wise decisions. (Knowing full well, of course, that institutions make errors too.)

Finally, here we are today. My view is that much of what we do still works remarkably well. But we have an increasingly hard time dealing with certain types of incredibly destructive behavior from people who also do good content work (or allegedly do good content work). The view - which you can see here in tonight's discussion - is that if someone can write featured articles that have a high number of pageviews, we should accept astonishing abuse, such as calling people "cunt" or "idiot". And - to be at least a bit more complete in my remarks - the behaviors are not just random minor violations of "political correctness" but ongoing thoroughly and unapologetically abuse behaviors justified by people (particularly women, I'm afraid) "deserving it".

I think this is fixable. But I think it requires an open and frank discussion, and a rallying call from seriously good editors who are producing good content but who think that we should *also* be working to welcome hundreds of *new* editors who are seriously good and also not jerks.

So I agree with you - "the silence sends a clear message to newcomers" - and I won't take part in that silence. I think we need to be vocal and clear - abusive editors will no longer be tolerated.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

(a) respect has to be earnt not demanded (b) if I had workers who spent all day every day at the water cooler complaining rather than doing any owrk they wouldn't be employed for long either. Jimbo, I presume you did mathematics to more than an elementary school level, why not look at Erics last 500 (or 100, 200 whatever) contribs and figure out what percentage are problematic or non constructive? And for fun, maybe comapre it with some other civility warriors? Or wllm or whoever? cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You raise an interesting question - how to measure the damaging impact of abuse. I respectfully submit that counting percentages of edits that contain abuse is not a very valid way to go about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I meant at least quantifying or appraising the data before firing off an opinion Jimbo - this place is full of folks making assumptions and assertions without actually checking facts. You appear to be saying you'd trust your own impressions rather than looking at data. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This business about page views earning leeway is nonsense, and I seriously doubt that "Eric's articles" get the most views anyway. But if page views earned you Wikipoints that could be redeemed as an indulgence, the main editors of George Clooney could do no wrong, but I doubt they go about the project calling people "cunts" and "idiots" and suggesting that their allegedly superior intelligence gives them license to do so, and I doubt they would get away with that if they did. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, I was just having this same conversation on FB this morning, and this seemed pretty apropos:

"I'm sure there's a feedback loop that comes into play sometimes too. When the larger culture starts noticing that a word is often associated with hurtful consequences, thoughtful people stop using it casually. The people who are left using it are the ones are more likely to be using it hurtfully to begin with - so the word becomes more strongly negative. The word 'fag' has definitely followed this trajectory on college campuses in the US. Earlier, many of its usage tokens meant just 'casual, nonspecific insult to masculinity'. Now, if someone uses it, you know they're an asshole."

—Neotarf (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Forget about pageviews as most of my work is on esoteric stuff too. Fact is that we are a volunteer project not an elite-recruitment agency and many of us here have faults one way or the other. I have written some thoughts on it at User:Casliber/Crossroads (very incomplete!) - we are at a point where we need all hands on deck to move wikipedia up in terms of reliability and "encyclopedic-ness" for lack of a better word. Blithe talk of the encyclopedia writing itself or just waiting for the next wave of newcomers to pick up is naive at best and could be catastrophic at worst. This is not 2005. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I should add - I've written 100 featured articles, plenty of good articles and been involved in various wikiprojects, stub contests, core contests and DYK. I've been elected as an arbitrator twice and nearly half of my 100,000+ edits are namespace. I've been published in (and reviewed papers for) peer-reviewed journals and have tertiary qualifications. I've spent years in all these areas looking at the content we produce over time, who writes it and how it is developing. I worry that pursuing this is one step closer to killing the goose laid the golden egg. I hope for all our sakes that I am wrong but don't say you weren't told. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You are starting to tear this encyclopedia apart Jimbo, encouraging much more serious toxic elements with your light, love and ban campaign. Please step back and reflect on what you are actually doing. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Epipelagic: I hate to break it to you but not everyone here sees Jimbo acting in bad faith. What I do see are sides forming if they haven't already something the Wikimedia foundation needs to look into . - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that any reasonable editor can possibly argue that EC's repeated misconduct isn't a cancer on the project, as their latest outburst demonstrates. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Au contraire. It's an environment rich in incivilites less easy to identify than "bad words", unrecognized and unchecked/unsanctioned, provoking responses you like to point to and blame, that is the real cancer. You're tapping the shadows. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don' think Jimbo is intentionally acting in bad faith, but (just as many people who don't work on or contribute much content) is missing the crucial point of how wikipedia is written, maintained and what it needs to do to remain relevant - and there is a real danger here of things going pear-shaped on a massive scale. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting point. But I'm a bit confused about the latter assertion. Sure, I'm pretty clueless (I'm learning as fast as I can!) about how Misplaced Pages is written, maintained, and how it stays relevant, but don't we know through empirical evidence that Jimbo knows a thing or two about it? I look at what's been accomplished here, and, knowing that Jimbo is imperfect (if not quite as imperfect as me), it's pretty easy for me to find good reasons to respect him and his contributions to the world. Knowing how to build a wildly successful online encyclopedia is one of them. -wʃʃʍ- 14:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Moving away from the current fracas, and looking more to the OP's general observation, I can't help feeling that Jimbo's response about WP traditions is quite distant from day-to-day reality. (Specifically, "our community has fundamental values that are very strong traditions and are deeply opposed to personal attacks and misogyny and so on. But they are also very fundamentally about hearing people out"). Leaving aside the specific claim of "mysogyny" and just looking at the broader pictureof personal attacks and a hostile atmosphere, there is a number of people who represent the positive attributes Jimbo describes, and perhaps there is a strain within WP that represents that "tradition". But frankly I don't think it's a prominent one. The combative/adversarial tradition in WP (which I think is the dominant one) seems to me an inevitable outcome of the basic edit/revert methodology. A revert, at its most elemental level, is a "hostile" act. We all get aclimatised to reverts in due course (more or less!) but you can see the raw impact on newbies, IPs etc when they become so offended/angered/perplexed etc at the reverting of their edit. A whole edifice (Talk pages, civility policy, Drama boards, BRD etc) has been built in an attempt to ameliorate that fundamentally adversarial basis to the way WP works. An adversarial atmosphere does not equal personal attacks etc of course. But, IMHO, it is the root out of which they grow. I'm not saying there's a better way of doing things - just that, in a sense, no one should be surprised that we end up with the atmosphere we have. DeCausa (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Good point. (I assume you're not saying we therefore can't do anything about the culture here. I'm pretty sure we can.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I was sort of edging towards it being inevitable (unchangeable?). But I'm a UK lawyer. English courts, like others in common law jurisdictions including the US but unlike civil jurisdictions, are based on an adversarial system of justice. However, in the English courts (don't know about the US) this is accompanied by an almost extreme form of "civility" etiquette amongst lawyers. May be there's a connection. DeCausa (talk) 15:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, while I think "civility warrior" is a hilarious oxymoron, I wouldn't be numbered among them. I'm talking about respect- not civility- which runs deeper and manifests in a much more profound, albeit nuanced, way. Another thought occurred to me while I was reading some of these responses: in communities that prize mutual respect as a first-class value, members are often highly influenced by what the people they respect think of their words and actions. If this respect is based on values like kindness, forgiveness, and inclusivity, in addition to measures of competency, it becomes a virtuous circle that builds a community in resilience, accomplishments, and numbers. Ultimately, I don't think it serves the community to tolerate disrespect under any circumstances, including from an editor with a huge number of great edits. We simply don't know how many contributors- existing or new- such behavior will turn away from the project and how many contributions they may have made otherwise. We've already to seen some disturbing trends, and many point to perceived hostility among editors as one of the causes. On the other hand, it would be ideal if we could stop such behavior by making the editor feel more included, instead of excluding him or her outright, for both the project and the editor. FWIW, I didn't open this section in reaction to anything Eric has done or said, and I really don't have enough context to comment on his specific behavior. -wʃʃʍ- 15:45, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Respect is far far more important than civility. But there is a huge difference in that respect is (or should be) earned whereas, on Misplaced Pages at least, it seems that civility is a right accorded to any random fuckwit.  pablo 19:29, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This is where we might disagree. I believe every person deserves not just civility, but respect, down to the last "random . And, FWIW, I don't presume to understand how smart someone is from a few interactions online. I'm interested in what they say, or I'm not. I don't see any reason to put them down, even when I don't understand what is interesting about it; why would anyone waste their time like that? -wʃʃʍ- 19:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I am interested in what they do. I am less interested in their social veneer. pablo 19:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You, Pablo, are a serious part of the problem. You've been actively encouraging rudeness and puerility here for as long as I can remember. Willm, this here is why "lead by example", alone, won't work. This person has undermined every discussion about civility I've seen on this project. There is a handful of such people here who - successfully - derail every attempt to make this a welcoming place for civilised discourse. I've deleted his gratuitous swearing. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect ;), we won't know what difference practicing respect (again, I consider civility a sort of "veneer"; I'm interested in the real stuff) can make until enough of us decide to give it a try. And what do we have to lose? To show you what I mean, I'll break a person rule of thumb and suggest that you could show more respect in your comment without compromising at all on your disapproval of Pablo's behavior. You can start by talking exclusively about the behavior, not the person. Then avoid any accusations that aren't directly supported by evidence in the form of a link, etc. This is, as far as I can remember (Pablo, forgive me if my memory fails), the first time I crossed paths with Pablo; your characterizations are almost all I will have to go by for now, and it would be tragic if they turned out to be unduly harsh. Unless they constitute a threat or hate speech, I'd also let Pablo's words stand for themselves; he has already accepted the consequence that people like me or you might think less of him for it. Finally, talking about what others can do to improve their behavior is best saved as a last resort- after all, it very rarely works. If you feel like there is some reason it will improve matters, then I suggest going about it in the most objective of terms. For example, I already know you from many interesting, constructive discussions, so in this case I'm betting on the possibility that you'll consider what I've said without taking offense and maybe even follow some of my unsolicited advice. Perhaps the most significant outcome that can come of it is I can also admire you for your rare ability to express disapproval and respect at the same time. Or you could just tell me to go screw. :) -wʃʃʍ- 03:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If the standard of discourse here were such that no one would even consider dropping an f-bomb in a very public forum, then all that would be required is leading by example and shunning those who can't behave. But getting from here to there will involve at the very least expressing bluntly what we think of oafish behaviour and deleting gratuitously offensive language, and occasionally (rarely I hope) showing oafs the door. We cannot expect sensible experts to engage in the present frat-boy culture, and this culture largely underpins the diversity problem. The success of this project depends, partly, on culture change. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Practicing respect isn't some panacea. No matter how many good vibes we groove out by respecting others, we'll always need a way to put an end to bad behavior when the person behaving badly can't or won't bring an end to it themselves. But every person who makes a personal decision to practice respect does their part to keep such cases to a minimum while making Misplaced Pages a more pleasant place for every Misplaced Pages you come across. You'd also help push respect to a critical mass, when everyone gets used to it in enough of their Misplaced Pages dealings that they begin to expect respect in all of them. I have a lot more to say about this, but I've decided to give Jimbo's talk page a breather and write it up in an essay instead. If you're interested, I'll send you a link once I've finished the first draft. Would love to hear your thoughts. -wʃʃʍ- 06:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes please. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Anthony - unsubstantiated hyperbole like yours above, and Jimbo's (still) unevidenced accusations of misogyny are a larger part of the problem. And if it is a 'culture change' you seek you could try not using terms like "f-bomb" and "frat-boy", neither of those figure in my culture and I suspect I am not alone in this.
Please do not edit other people's posts. It is extremely rude (ie uncivil). pablo 07:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

An image of you and your words - deletion nom @ Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales

Saffron Blaze (talk) 22:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

According to a reliable source, a commons admin (@Russavia:) made a corrupt offer to write a Misplaced Pages entry about an artist who does "penis paintings" as follows "I'm going to write a Misplaced Pages article about you, he said, and you penis-paint the face of Jimmy Wales, the cofounder of the largest and most influential encyclopedia in the world. The painting would then be added to the article." Source. Until that admin is blocked, either by the community at commons, or the Foundation, for harassment, and the work deleted then I have very little interest in responding to inquiries at commons.

I should be clear - the problem is not the abuse of me, but the toxic and juvenile environment at Commons. I have never failed in 30 seconds of looking to find a horrifying BLP violation at commons of a photo of an identifiable woman engaged in sexual activity with highly questionable provenance (for example a deleted flickr account). Every time (including tonight) that I go there hoping to see improvement, I am disappointed. And I think that as long as we tolerate it and don't bounce some very bad admins, we will not solve the problem.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I should also be clear that this notice was intended as a courtesy and that I was one of the vocal opponents of keeping the pricasso works. BTW, I find the environment at WP just as toxic and juvenile. Saffron Blaze (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This image seems to be based on a slide from the Wikimania civility speech of August 2014, which I took the liberty of making a transcript of at User talk:Neotarf/Jimbo civility speech transcript. Unfortunately the location of the audio seems to keep moving around and currently I have it at which I can't even sign in to now. I would trust this has all been posted to Meta by now, so maybe someone who knows how to find this easily would provide the location, which would probably solve the copyright mystery at Commons as well. —Neotarf (talk) 23:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Imagine a world where I am too important to respond to anything. There are people who actually collaborated on commons and not just disparage these people defining them as toxic and juveniles, paradoxically when your decision not to respond even more juvenile, to say, like a child. --Wilfredor (talk) 01:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is this how you respond at commons to complaints about harassment? To call the victim juvenile? Ok. But don't expect me to come over there very often.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: Assume a position of victimization is not the same as being a victim. To blame others guilt, because they are young and toxic, is when at least one negative comment and toxic itself. When you judge others seem to define yourself. What is happening in several projects is their lack of interaction with them, lack of leadership. Imagine a world where parents do not want to talk to their children because they are toxic and juvenile, what is the result? a toxic and youthful atmosphere conducive to yourself. I'm not against that WMF make money with our volunteer work, however, no interaction is unacceptable. So, I invite you to care more about the community and not only when cash is needed. --Wilfredor (talk) 12:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy, I've no comments about this particular case; but would like to know the copyright status of works/contents used in Wikimedia programs. We know now that all works by WMF staff are CC BY-SA 3.0. But there are lot of works prepared by WMF volunteers and individuals like you who are not directly under any agreement with WMF (my understanding). This creates some uncertainty about the copyrights of such works. Do we have a way to make sure all works used in Wikimedia programs are freely licensed? This will make our life easier and save a lot of volunteer time. Jee 12:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy, you trust in the Misplaced Pages community so much while at the same time you aren't happy with the Commons community. Could you please tell us what makes you to believe that the Misplaced Pages community is any healthier than the Commons community? Aren't there the same anonymous users who make both communities? Wasn't russavia a member of the Misplaced Pages community until recently, and how many more russavias are current members of the Misplaced Pages community?

I agree there are many BLPs violations on Commons. Why do you complain about it here, and do nothing to remove those BLP violations on Commons? Who governs "the largest and most influential encyclopedia in the world", anonymous members of the community, or the WMF, or trustees?

Why don't you start desysoping process of Russavia on Commons? The result would demonstrate what the Commons community is worth. 202.65.118.154 (talk) 22:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

In review

(1) Drama-monger Lightbreather does the I-quit-I-quit-I-quit-Eric-made-me-do-it shimmy. (2) The I Hate Eric gang shakes. (3) Jimmy Wales pops in with a gratuitous comment about a guy he has tossed from this page rather than going to ArbCom and offering legitimate testimony against him. (4) Eric, who never once in his entire fucking life failed to take the bait, takes the bait. (5) The I Hate Eric chorus pokes him with a stick. (6) Jimmy chips some more. (7) Eric blows his top and immolates himself. Very nice work building an encyclopedia, all of you!!! —Tim Davenport /// Carrite (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

On the bright side, User:Chillum had the good sense to not make it an indefinite block, so we have a better chance of avoiding the long AN/I thread, the drama and "popcorn" comments by onlookers, the early unblock by a supporting admin, more drama over that, a couple admin retirements, etc. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I heard popcorn? 'Tis the season, again, pictured, - again? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's hope. Someone find some wood.--v/r - TP 01:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I had to step away from that discussion myself--and take the Editor Retention page off my watchlist. —Neotarf (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm saddened, that my keep calm advice (at Retention) to fellow editors, hasn't been heeded :( GoodDay (talk) 01:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Now we have evidence that Lightbreather, Eric Corbett and Jimbo Wales are fallible human beings instead of bots. Does this result in megabytes of ranting and raving, or thoughtful de-escalation? I hope for the second option, but I am an eternal optimist. That means that I am destined to be disappointed quite often. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Jim, this entire thing was a provocation from start to finish. The threat to Misplaced Pages isn't a couple people with short tempers who habitually use rude language, the threat to Misplaced Pages are the crop of gameplayers who are here for theatrics and controversy rather than to build an encyclopedia. Carrite (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the threats aren't mutually exclusive... Gaijin42 (talk) 14:41, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Could someone provide a short summary of what this is all about for those who don't follow wikipolitics? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Mattbuck Do the value of contributions from high-content editors outweigh any problems caused by their incivility. The rest is a lot of counter accusations of who is actually incivil, who should be banned (Largely Eric Corbett and some others in the "incivil" side, with others (mainly those accused on the first part) saying Jimbo and "drama admins" should be banned.) and if the accusations of incivility are themselves more disruptive than the original incivility. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I think it is high time our beloved founder step away from commenting on Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages editors and leave opinions to the masses. Are you so naive as to think that if you, the founder of Misplaced Pages and a valued opinionater, made a passing remark critical of Eric Corbett, that it would go unnoticed? The Hivemind takes you word as law, Jimmy. Your opinions are worth more than anyone here, so do not be careless with words. KonveyorBelt 22:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Hardly a *passing* remark, this part of Jimmy's August Wikimania speech got a huge amount of applause. —Neotarf (talk) 17:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Help Save Misplaced Pages From Being Hijacked, Conspiracy and Censored

Mr. Wales, help save your baby from being censored, and Hijacked. I tried to add a page listing all the Legal Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, a complete unbiased record found in any good Encyclopedia. However some of the users have decided this should not be part of the document. They are Hijacking History and have an Agenda. At one time it was listed at Draft:Legal Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

The excuses for rejecting the page started at "This WAS a Work of Fiction", to

"How would I know? But if this costs $.10 a page it seems to me that the sites are copyright, too. And we cannot have copyright violations. Fiddle Faddle 14:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)."

It is now scrubbed from the delete log, and NO HISTORY AVAILABLE!! Some of the users involved were User:Bbb23, User:Fiddle Faddle, User:DrFleischman.

What I started with was;

Draft:Legal Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Since the passage of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, there have been numerous actions in federal courts to challenge the legality of the legislation. This article describes the challenges by date and case number of every case mounted against the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Format is date, case number, court, Constitutional Challenge All references should include date filed, actual government case number designations and status.

On July 29, 2014, (1:14-cv-01287-RBW)United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Constitutional Challenge . The State of West Virginia v United States HHS,et al was filed which challenges the "Administrative Fix" and other constitutional violations of the law. State of West Virginia has filed a Motion for Summary Judgment. Defendant (HHS) has requested an extension of time to respond until October 17, 2014.

On December 31, 2013, (1:13-cv-02066-CKK/14-5183)United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Constitutional Challenge . Cutler v. United States Department of Health and Human Services, et al. Cutler challenges the constitutionality of the Act, both on its face and as applied to him and his constituents. Cutler asserts that the provision requiring individuals to obtain health insurance coverage or face monetary penalties violates the religion clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and a previous Supreme Court Decision , “1947 Everson v Board of Education”, and allows the government to favor one religion over another religion. The process of empowering the United States Government to Certify that applicable individual is part of EXEMPT RELIGION or SECT, Cutler seeks a declaration that the Act is unconstitutional, invalid, and unenforceable. Cutler also seeks to "rollback" the law to the status it had prior to 2014 on various grounds, arguing that the law NOW violates the Constitution by allowing unequal protection under the law.(If You Like Your Plan, You Can Keep Your PLAN till October 1, 2016, but only if the insurance commissioner of your state agrees). The federal government's motion for complete dismissal is under review, as is the plaintiff's motion for partial summary judgment. Notice of Appeal was filed on July 25, 2014. On August 11, 2014 a notice of related case was filed for the case of State of West Virginia v United States HHS,et al (1:14-cv-01287-RBW). Lawyers from the American Freedom Law Center are handling the appeal.

On October 30, 2013, (1:13-cv-01214-WCG/14-2123}. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin. Constitutional Challenge . Association of American Physicians & Surgeons and Robert T. McQueeney, MD v IRS. On September 22, 2014, the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago affirmed a Wisconsin federal judge's decision to dismiss a lawsuit filed last October by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Inc., and Robert T. McQueeney, who treat patients on a cash basis, and want to prevent everyone from being required to be covered by health insurance. The plaintiffs had sought an injunction blocking the IRS from collecting the penalty in 2014, on the argument that it would violate the Tenth Amendment and separation of powers.

References

• West virginia attorney general suing White House over Obamacare
• http://www.pacer.gov
• Transition to compliant policies
• http://www.pacer.gov
• http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/275834801.html

108.11.225.31 (talk) 04:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you have an agenda that you wish to advance? If so, the rest of the Internet is wide open to you. Blog to your heart's content. In the mean time, all that hijack-conspiracy-censored talk is oh so boring. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:18, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about the whole "Hijacked, Conspiracy and Censored" if the log is wiped then I cant see what happened, so I cant help you with that. What I can say is that it seems to be a NPOV (although a bit dry), however I question why you are linking to pacer? Yes it is the "official" government court filing system, but there are unofficial cache's of the files you can link to that do not cost money. Go see RECAP The Law. Or one of the other 3rd party hosting of court documents for instance one of your cases could be cited to: --Obsidi (talk ) 01:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Being nice

I am surprised at the way everyone is being hostile here. Misplaced Pages is a place where people are supposed to work together to improve the worlds knowledge. This cant get done if we are all fixated on tackling Jimbo or trying to prove everyone wrong.Amanda Smalls 14:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If only my advice (at WP:RETENTION) had been put into practice. Loosing one's temper, rarely helps at the 'pedia. Please folks, spread the words - "Make love, not war". GoodDay (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I stand with Amanda and GoodDay in saying that it is very important to me that Wikipedians be nice to each other. We all deserve respect. This is a personal value that I bring to the project, and one that I would like to share with my fellow Wikipedians. -wʃʃʍ- 15:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  The only way to improve the situation on Misplaced Pages is hiring mentally sound, completely independent from the community professionals to handle dispute resolutions.218.63.252.146 (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  While that may be a way to improve the situation- I've often heard this proposed to handle the most extreme examples of bad behavior that might put vulnerable members of the community, like minors, in danger, but it might solve other issues such as running grudges and enemy vs. ally thinking, too- it's hardly the only way. I think we all should stop looking for ways to force others to be respectful and promote respect by practicing it. This starts by being respectful ourselves, of course. But I believe it also means having the courage to speak up when we see one community member being disrespectful to others. We don't have to wag our fingers; simply stating openly that we don't believe a comment doesn't reflect the better values of our community is enough for anyone who has little context- like a new editor- to see that there are those who share their belief that everyone deserves respect and want everyone to have a good time while working on Misplaced Pages. This may make a much bigger difference than some veteran editors who have developed thick skin over the years may realize. It also wouldn't hurt to thank other members for voicing disagreement in a particularly respectful way. These are all things we can start doing right now, and the more people who take these first steps because they believe it's the right thing to do, the easier it will become for others. -wʃʃʍ- 18:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  (edit conflict)But no mentally sound person would want to handle dispute resolution on Misplaced Pages. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  I really don't think that is true at all - there are many good people who want to handle dispute in all kinds of situations around the globe. In fact, that statement seems to be attacking the mental competence of people who really do try to help - see my comment below about online nastiness. Neatsfoot (talk) 19:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Amanda, I agree with you 100%. But, I've been involved in web communities and internet interaction for many years, and my main (and saddest) conclusion is that the faceless nature of it brings out the worst in many people. The nasty side of people who are safe and hidden from physical personal contact can be very nasty indeed - exceptionally nasty in some cases. Neatsfoot (talk) 18:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you're right. But I believe that it goes beyond fear of bodily harm, if that's what you're implying by "safe and hidden from physical personal contact". I think it's all too easy to forget that there are people behind the usernames. People with feelings, just like our own. When grudges have developed, this is an incredibly hard problem to tackle. Do you think there's anything that we can do to encourage respect and discourage put downs? -wʃʃʍ- 19:19, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

While that may be true of the web generally, I don't see anything particularly nasty about what has been said towards Jimbo. I think some of his comments here have struck a raw nerve with a lot of people which is why a lot of respectable editors here have been outspoken, beyond being concerned with Jimmy's "constitutional crisis" and focus on civility. Your "Do you think there's anything that we can do to encourage respect and discourage put downs" remark though is rather ironic in this case. I'm not knocking Jimbo for thinking that calling people the c word is unacceptable on here, but I personally found his "allegedly good contributions" remark more offensive and disrespectful and an attack on content contributors at large who know how much hard work it takes to get an article to FA status. I agree with Casliber, I'd rather be called a cunt than have somebody publicly reject the hundreds of hours of hard work I've put into the site as if it doesn't exist. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of productive content contributors here including myself, Casliber and HJ have been outspoken on this. Jimmy, I strongly recommend that you look at the hard work put into articles here. Look at this originally here. Now compare it to the current article. Are you telling me that's an alleged good contribution? You may detest Eric, but you don't realise how some of your snide comments have come across to others who work hard here and have offended those who Eric has been of major assistance to and in some cases the difference between an article passing FA and not. By my count Eric has contributed 47 featured articles and 30 good articles to the project, not to mention hundreds of others he's had a hand in but not credited himself for. 47 featured articles is in no way, shape or form only "alleged good content". Bramshill House is another I worked hard on with much assistance from Eric, Yngvadottir, Drmies and others which really should be FA by now. He was instrumental in helping me get Abuwtiyuw, an article on an obscure Egyptian dog to FA status. To publicly stand and dismiss that level of project contribution because you find the behaviour of the individual ludicrously uncivil is an attack on the many of us here who are involved in the process. At least acknowledge the contributions, even if you think they pale in comparison to incivility.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no intention of taking part in this witchhunt—I couldn't give two fucks about either Jimbo or the Drama Queen—but, Doc, but I gotta call horseshit on your above comment. The Corbett has absolutely no compuction totally slagging the tens of thousands of productive edits of fellow editors (that one from back when I had a mere "nowhere" fourteen FAs to my name). Jimbo's "alleged" and the innuendo the thin-skinned choose to read into it pales in comparison, and I know other good editors have gotten it worse than I have (fuck, Eric's never even called me a "cunt"). If you're gonna defend Eric, try at least to be honest about it—there are plenty of us who refuse to censor our sailortalk, but only one who's being dragged through the mud for it, so let's not pretend it's merely for his pottymouth. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 08:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not trying to defend what he's said Curly, but all I'm saying is in no way can you dismiss his actual contributions as "allegedly good". That's what bothers me the most. Surely you can't deny that he has contributed something of real value to the content on the site even if you find him highly uncivil.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Have I done either? Of course not. I'm just this faux outrage over Jimbo's "alleged" makes me want to barf. We're supposed to believe that (a) Jimbo actually meant to dismiss all of Eric's positive contributions with an "alleged", and (b) even if he did, it actually matters? Sounds like canned drama to me. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Good point, but I do think it matters that the founder and public face of wikipedia doesn't seem to place much importance on content on wikipedia and that the people running the site pursue things which as HJ says are a distraction to building actual content. The "allegedly good content" remark I see as part of the wider overall attitude of them towards the people who come up with the real goods here, even those who are perfectly civil. I find it very discouraging as a contributor here that the people running the site seem to have little time for content contributors or ever give them much support beyond fundraising, that's why the remark bothers me in the wider context. If you banned Eric there'd be many others who would have to banned. Why is Eric being used as the scapegoat for all of the problems with incivility on the website? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Providing a space for them to publish their work is support; making a call for others to work together with them is providing support. Who else do you want to ban? Your claim that whoever they are, excuses others is another disconnect. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, I don't think there's any evidence that Jimbo "doesn't seem to place much importance on content ". It's not very helpful for anyone to keep repeating the same slur. He might place slightly less emphasis on content than some do, or than on some other aspects of encyclopedia-building, but I doubt even that. It's true he doesn't do much personally, but I don't think that should be held against him. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

But, in the overall scheme of things, is getting "an article on an obscure Egyptian dog" to FA status really that important? I'm not meaning to denigrate anyone's contributions, but I do question whether attempting to "perfect" (as some do) articles on obscure subjects is really the best way - or only way, as some seem to see it - of advancing universal knowledge. I admit that it's fun to try to do (and it's better having a really good article on an obscure Egyptian dog than not to have such an article), but I simply question whether it's as important in the overall scheme of things as some make it out to be. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Some of us were drawn to Misplaced Pages in the first place because it was sometimes the one place you could find decent info on certain out-of-the-way subjects. If it weren't for this long tail, many of us would never have bother to drop by, let alone stay. I'd say that articles on obscure dogs or whatever are exactly what gives Misplaced Pages its value—you can read about World War Two or Leonardo da Vinci anywhere, online or off. Misplaced Pages, on the other hand, gives you (more often than not) the information you're looking for now, and not just those articles someone somewhere has deemed "important in the overall scheme". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well said, Ghmyrtle, the contributers who do so get their plaudits, if they are into that, but it's entirely overblown, if someone wants to invoke privilege over others for that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:40, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Not as important as getting core articles like Enid Blyton, Frederic Chopin and Greater Manchester to FA no, but our goal it to get all articles up to FA status and make them the best we possibly can, is it not? @ Alan Who said "if someone wants to invoke privilege over others for that"? I'm not saying that that level of contribution means that you can justifiably go about calling people cunts, but I am saying that "allegedly good content" for editors who know how much work it takes to run the FA process 47 times is a big kick in teeth.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course. But some goals are more important than other goals. Incidentally, I agree that the words "allegedly good content" were not well-chosen - but everyone, even the most experienced, uses poorly-chosen words on occasions (which, probably, is why we're here). Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

What Dr. Blofield poses is a disconnect - no one is criticizing anyone for working on better content. Alanscottwalker (talk) 08:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes they are. Jimmy publicly dismissed 47 featured articles as "allegedly good" content. That was pretty mean-spirited too, whether he hates Eric or not.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I must be awful thick, but no matter how many times I reread his comment in context I'm unable to uncover this malice you allege lies between the lines. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 11:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, it is "allegedly good content" - a group of users have alleged it is good, others can decide for themselves. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, but by saying it I get the impression that he thinks very little of the FA process and the others involved in it and hasn't taken the time to look at the positive side of him which others here see.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I get the impression he sees the disconnect, we discussed above. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't necessarily just mean safe from physical harm, because I don't think it's as simple as that - and I don't think it's a conscious decision. I really just mean we're out of touch with the body-language feedback that characterizes real-world interaction. Face to face, we get quick feedback when we're going too far in confrontation, and that just doesn't happen in online interactions. In fact, I've found myself getting aggressive in online interactions where I just wouldn't in normal conversation - and it's occasionally shocked me. And when it comes to people who are naturally aggressive, well, it can become horrible. Neatsfoot (talk) 19:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Very true. There is so little unspoken communication, that we often don't even pick up when someone is joking. Getting to know each other- even online- seems to be a big part of reminding people we're all humans. A lot of Wikipedians may not feel like revealing more about themselves in hostile environments, however. Maybe that would be one of the benefits of speaking up to say that we expect respect. -wʃʃʍ- 19:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I'm not necessarily suggesting it, but what if people who wish to be part of the community were obliged to register with their real names? (Practicalities of how to achieve that are considerable, but I'm just thinking theoretically). As a start, at least, I think it's way past time that unregistered editing was stopped. Neatsfoot (talk) 19:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages would turn into Citizendum. They are all required to use their real names. Experts on certain subjects have their opinions taken as gospel, as well. Also, feel free to start an RfC, but I would be one of the people to oppose it; there was an analysis on this I believe and while there were some vandalistic edits, there was still a threshold of good faith contributions that they still allow it. Plus, some editors don't want an account, preferring to edit with just an IP. Tutelary (talk) 20:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I'm not necessarily suggesting it - these are just free ideas rather than actual proposals of any kind. We're just talking, and not anywhere near RfC. Neatsfoot (talk) 20:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

It also crossed my mind that we've hit on another potential benefit of removing some anonymity for editors. But, as Tutelary tells it, there are so many other considerations both pro and con that none of us want to get in to here if we want to stay focused on the issue of respect. I'll try to remember myself, but when we do have a rigorous community discussion about re-evaluating anonymity given what Misplaced Pages has grown up to be, would you please chalk that one up for the pro side? :) My name's Wil Sinclair, BTW. I'm not supposed to say it, but the next thing people find most interesting about me is that I'm the partner of the current WMF ED. My deepest, darkest Misplaced Pages secret? I wish that wasn't so damn interesting to everyone. Anyways, best! -wʃʃʍ- 02:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the culture of anonymity is going to change any time soon (in fact, with the way Misplaced Pages's crowdsourced governance has gone, I don't see anything significant being changed), but anonymity is, to a large extent, behind the nastiness that we see online. The more anonymous a person feels, the more likely they are to be abusive to others in a way they would not face to face. There are exceptions, of course, and some people are abusive under their real names - but in a way, I find that more honest. (And yep, I'd worked out who -wʃʃʍ- is ;-) Neatsfoot (talk) 05:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

One simple step that could help - just a little - would be to add buttons whereby editors on talk pages could "like" or "dislike" other users' comments there. Only the numbers "liking" or "disliking" would be shown, as on Facebook and other sites. That way, users could get an inkling of the support that individual comments had. Just a small step, but it could help. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: What's your say Jimbo?Amanda Smalls 19:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The most surprising thing I have seen is that my very strong defense of content contributors against an environment of toxic hostility is being interpreted by some as not caring about content contributors. My overall point is that merely alleging that someone's content contributions are great entirely misses the point which is that for some of them, their horrible abuse of others has an enormously negative impact on content contributors. Some leave completely. Some participate less. Some become resigned to a hostile atmosphere and allow themselves to descend to a similar level. Other, lesser editors, pick up the signal that being a jerk is ok, that using misogynist terminology can be hand-waved away, and themselves see very little reason to behave in a kind and thoughtful manner. There is a solution to this: defend content contributors against abusive behavior - even by other content contributors.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not questioning your desire for a civil community and where drama doesn't fester and become hostile and toxic. In practice I would too. And I also don't want editors to leave the project. You stated that banning Eric would be a very strong defense of content contributors on wikipedia but I've not seen any real evidence that Eric is responsible for dozens of great contributors leaving on a daily basis or even a regular basis. I'm aware of Khazar, an editor who I had a lot of respect for, but if somebody could compile a list of editors he directly forced out with diffs and retire notices I'd be more likely to accept it. I know a lot of editors from time to time have run into Eric and have felt exasperated with something he has said, I did myself, but I also know a lot of editors who came out of it (myself included) with greater respect for him and seeing how productive he can be in practice. Unfortunately I can't monitor what happens across the website on such a scale that I'm aware of every new editors who leaves, but I do think that your tendency to focus on his negative side and the fact that you're only approached about Eric over his behaviour has affected your view on what he actually does on here 90% of the time. That's why some people see that banning him or at least dismissing his work here as "alleged" as the opposite from defending content contributors and in all honesty why he's still here. We've witnessed what he does firsthand and value that more than the attack. An article like Trichy which User:Vensatry were struggling with which had prose problems and he gave it a full copyedit and it passed FA. I value that sort of thing a great deal on here.

The more disruptive aspect for me is the drama that is created and the hostile environment which escalates which I've said on several occasions really needs to stop and to change the way it is handled. I've not watched your talk page in a few years, but some of the things you've said recently have concerned me and I'm worried about where the project is headed which like HJ and Casliber is why I've been commenting here a lot in recent times. I've always been complimentary about the way in which the foundation keeps the website free and free of adverts, that's priceless, that's providing support for editors and hosting content granted, but I do get the impression that you and the foundation aren't focused enough on promoting content promotion on the website and attracting new editors and experts and allow issues like this to take up a lot of your time and are a distraction from what really matters. If promoting a civil environment is the key to building an encyclopedia and supporting content contributors, then as somebody suggested above, Eric doesn't lie at the centre of the problem. The problem lies in edit/revert scheme, drama boards, and the way talk pages are set up which encourage incivility and heated disputes rather than civil collaboration not to mention certain administrators having the power to police above editors who are a lot more valuable to the site in terms of production. If you're serious about promoting civility as the key to successful collaboration and encyclopedia building, then some major changes need to take place in how incivility from regulars is dealt with. If sweary personal attacks are not acceptable, then they need to be universally enforced and completely not tolerated from anybody. The civility blocks especially should be abolished and replaced with a system in which editors are given a certain amount of strikes and out scheme in a given year and blocking of established editors reserved to only occasions where they are incredibly disruptive and angry. If everybody has a certain number of chances, if editors have only one chance left before being banned for the rest of the year or something, they'll be more likely to control what they say. It's the only way to really deal with this if you find it too much of a problem to ignore. If you place a value on editing rights as a way to control civility I'm pretty sure you'd see results.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me Jimbo's mindset is focused on perceived incivilities coming from content contributors who are not admins. Whereas a far worse source of driving content editors who are not admins away (lower their participation, or drop out/quit) are incivilities coming from abusive admins. (Admins issuing bad blocks, threats to block; admins who go to reg editors's Talk pages to intimidate/harass; admins who break rules and are grossly uncivil with impunity, because they know they can get away with these things, because de-sysop is rare on the site; admins who buddy-up with their abusive admin friends in support of one another in a culture of mutual protection reminiscent of RL police society sub-culture. This is the kind of intimidating and uncivil environment you get when assigning "admin for life" and de-sysops are rare/near impossible -- a corrupted admin system. ) If I'm wrong and intimidation and abuse from bad admins causes less content contributor departure than departures due to content contributors who are not admins, someone please correct me; but I'd wager the problem is ten times the problem Jimbo is focusing on vis-a-vis content contributors re responsibility for toxic environment. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Another element of the WP environment which I believe is way worse than perceived incivilities from content contributors who are not admins for pushing editors to quit, is the uncontrolled, anarchic and nasty/ruthless environment at AN/I responsible for "lynch mob", "witch hunt", "Lord of the Flies", "mud-throwing" to have developed to level of accurate memes. (The governance structure and environment that has developed there as a result, is pathetic: anyone can take anyone to ANI/I for any reason; any irresponsible thing can be said there as editors know that venue is not one to scrutinize what is accused or alleged. It's a nasty environment and form of governance given the absurd title "community consensus". ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) People who leave out of frustration rarely do so because of what they, often correctly, perceive as a hostile environment where cussing at people, swearing, and being called "cunts" has become normalized. It is rare for someone to leave because of a single user, and rarer still for them to declare that they were chased off by a named user. Therefore "real evidence that Eric is responsible for dozens of great contributors leaving on a daily basis or even a regular basis" is largely unobtainable. That does not mean that one should dismiss the damage a disruptive and hostile user can cause. When a user has treated other people with utmost contempt with name-calling and snarky or sexually loaded personal attacks, they are a major contributor to the hostile environment that drives people away.

Even if we did have direct evidence that Eric caused someone to leave, for example a user declaring so in a parting statement, it would be easy to dismiss that too. For example: (a) That user who left is just a WP:DIVA, ignore him and good riddance. (b) The parting statement is a personal attack against Eric, look at the accusations he has to put up with! No wonder he was provoked! (c) The article contributions of the departed user don't measure up against Eric's contributions, therefore losing that user against keeping Eric is a good trade.

I have been mostly in observational mode regarding Eric since I in July 2013 unwisely closed an ANI in favor of leaving one of Eric's blocks in place. I was astonished at the fervor a number of users, including former ArbCom members, were willing to defend Eric and attack anyone who tried blocking him or leaving him blocked, some of them calling for my bit.

I do not agree with Jimbo on everything, indeed I think I was the first admin ever to speedy delete one of his articles, but I understand very well where he is coming from here. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Sjakkalle: Yes, but do you not think there is general problem with civility enforcement on the site generally and would continue even if Eric was banned? Ihardlythinkso has identified much of the wider problem which exists and is the root cause of a lot of the inflammation here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a general problem indeed. Posing questions such as "What about the wider civility problem?" and "what about abusive admins?" is valid, but using that as a reason to ignore Eric's contribution to the mess is committing a fallacy of relative privation. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone else see the irony here. This discussion is titled as "Being Nice" I expected good things to come out of this.Amanda Smalls 14:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Good has come out of it, I've proposed a system of dealing with "incivility" and how the excess drama can be avoided. If Jimbo and the foundation choose to ignore me and continue with the same system they and the current system are going to hiccup time and time again over issues like this. If you really want civility on the website, stop moaning about Eric and put your money where your mouth is and start making changes.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

break 1

Nobody is perfect. Even the best contributors here do some things wrong with behaviour or (gasp) even with some of their edits. That doesn't mean their good work isn't good work, nor does it mean that bad behaviour or edits are not bad. In a professional environment, people are not expected to be perfect, but are usually expected to try to behave to some standard, and if appropriate, other professionals help them improve. But if someone can not, or will not, remedy significant defects and achieve the professional standard, that person either gets reduced to a contained role, or gets removed. Is Misplaced Pages a professional environment? Gimmetrow 15:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, as said further up on that wikipedia really wants to be a professional environment but can never be.. If a sweary attack is directly at somebody is prohibited on the site and really that much of a problem (which I can't see but still..), then it needs to be made universally so, including admins. If everybody has a 3 strikes and out on their account, and makes 3 sweary personal attacks in a given period like 6 months or a year, then an immediate ban from the website for six months or a year. Editors can win back a strike by not attacking anybody over a given period like a month or three and working hard on articles without disruption. If editors go through three strikes three different times then an indefinite ban from the website. So basically every editor has nine lives. Editors who know that another sweary remark to somebody will get them get them banned for six months or something, if they're really worth it and care enough as editors they'll try their best to avoid saying anything and keep editing even if they think it. Yes, it might seem pretty childish, but I think it's clear that a basic system like that would at least prove more effective long term than the sweary attack, block. unblock, drama etc happening again and again. I still think the real problem lies where Ihardly says though, and the incivility policy needs to be extended to those who psychologically bully and troll/stalk others on here to win points from their fellow admins. There needs to be something to gauge unreasonable behaviour beyond simple sweary attacks in the heat of the moment.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Who is going to "call" the "strikes," I ask? What automated system is going to maintain the score? And even if these questions are solved, ultimately this will just change the nature of incivility, not eliminate it. Anyone reasonably skilled in politics — a group which includes most administrators and most regular WP volunteers — is capable of ascertaining where the new lines of acceptable behavior are and modifying the form of their aggression and nastiness. I think what's unusual about the EC case is the way that he is clearly not capable of keeping himself within such boundaries. He is, on the one hand, a great Wikipedian. On the other hand, he just can't. What do we as a community do with somebody like this? Here we are deeply divided. On the one hand we have those like Lightbreather and Jimmy Wales that think such sins are mortal and that he should be thrown in the garbage dump as toxic to the Misplaced Pages project. On the other hand we have those who (like myself) think that there are actually relatively damned few skilled Wikipedians and that periodic bursts of unacceptable interpersonal communication are minor distractions in the big scheme of things, to be managed by short civility blocks. There is really no middle solution here and that's why the matter is so bitter. One thing is clear: false horror and provocations such as the root of this current incident on this page are more disruptive than the original offensive edit summary by a factor of fifty. It is the provocateurs that need to be taken care of forcefully as part of the solution. A new "game" for the provocateurs to play, with umpires calling "strikes" and scoreboards keeping "scores," will be even more of the same bullshit in new guise. Carrite (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If the certain swear words are considered offensive you could quite easily have an automatic system like with blacklisting for certain words. Every time someone says the c word or whatever a bot will mark the account. Do it three times and get banned for the remainder of the year. Of course editors would find a way around it, and there are far worse forms of incivility as witnessed on this page, but it would at least stop people calling xxx a c-word or telling people to eff off and avoid some of the words that people are most offended by here. I give up anyway, until the people with enough power here see some sense on this and make actual changes then talking about it and moaning about how bad Eric is solves nothing.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, you're giving off mixed signals. Do you actually want anyone to talk sense about this issue, or do you want to continue to portray it as if the only reason people want Eric banned is because he uses bad language? I've been studying this issue for all of a single afternoon, and yet even I've already picked up that this is not the real reason for the controversy at all (although it's inherently tied to it, as one inevitably goes with the other). The core issue is clearly his demeaning of other editors in a most personal fashion, which, while it may or may not be accepted in practice under certain circumstances (such as uncharacteristic heat of the moment outbursts which are quickly apologised for), is nonetheless per NPA considered eminently ban worthy if done in a calculated and repeated fashion, where remorse or regret is far from evident after the fact (and this seems to fit most, if not all, of the incidents I've learned of in here). And as it's possible to demean others with or without the use of any of the so called 'bad' words, a naughty words filter is just about the least workable solution of all. Patrol forty (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

So what if there was no "scoreboard", but rather zero tolerance for attacks, and applied to everyone,including you, me, Mr. Wales and Mr. Corbett? Then people would either get along or spend most of their time blocked. I suspect that many of the recurring cycles on WP are not going to stop without some difficult changes by everyone. Gimmetrow 18:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I say give that a trial for a year or so. Anybody who utters a personal attack, however minor, ban them for the remainder of the year. Over time when very few contributors are really left because they'll have been banned for the slightest heated retort, perhaps then we'll see which is more important, content or civility. It really is the only way to deal with it if you're going to make a huge issue of it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I just want to say that this isn't merely someone just saying "fuck you" to another person that is commonplace and even if its a person having a bad day okay that's fine people have bad days. When that same person continues to say it to multiple editors over a long period of time then there is a problem. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Quite true, it's not just about some nasty words. But I think most of us, if we can achieve some distance, can recognize rather unprofessional ways of addressing and referring to other editors. I've seen a few the last couple days, and nothing much happened about them. Do we really mean NPA? Not in practice, no. A couple radical approaches would be have zero tolerance and mean it, or abandon NPA entirely. Gimmetrow 18:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree Carrite. I'm just trying to think of something to put an end to the same cycle again and again and Jimbo blaming Eric for everybody leaving. Even you must admit that the cycle is ridiculous and creates a further divide and time wasting every time.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay I just want to say that the effect Eric puts on users here is toxic, from his edit summaries to his talk page rants. I don't care how good of an editor he is the fact is that Misplaced Pages does not need you. I have also seen the whole campaign on Eric's talkpage about how he wants to get paid for his edits, I do not see this happening either and question this silly boycott of editing just to prove a point. If Eric does stay he will just continue to bring other users down and its something that needs to be cut out and dealt with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, not helping Knowledgekid87, keep things constructive, stop attacking Eric.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Im just speaking the truth, when someone is attacking other editors non-stop it is something that needs to be looked into. You really don't see any attacks from Eric towards others here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You can only speak for yourself Knowledgekid87, you certainly don't speak for me. There are two sides to every dispute and while Eric has encouraged and helped more editors than I can count, I can't say the same for Jimbo. Eric doesn't suffer fools and that isn't a crime, nor does he attack others non stop but he does call out idiocy. I don't talk down editors who can't respond but I suppose you are one of those editors who can do so while "being nice". J3Mrs (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Again Eric can be a great guy but then again down the line someone who is just as good at editing can come along. I will stop as you do have a point that Eric cant respond. I am not surprised that you came to his defense though and do see this as a two sided conflict on Misplaced Pages. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I admired Eric's work from afar and had no contact with him. Then I did, and the first two times I received the full (and I think, underserved) force of Eric's bile. At Sunbeam Tiger he turned on a few subject expert new editors who had the temerity to pick holes in his shiny new FA (they were right, there were howlers that had passed FA). He called one a (I quote) "fucking idiot" and was then made "Editor of the Week" for his "work" on that article.

Eric's outrage is toxic, uncontrolled and very often mistargeted at those who don't deserve it. There is no justification for it because he could stop doing it. Even if we choose to allow his rage at those who do deserve it (I don't claim they don't exist, I claim that we work here under agreement not to react in such a way), he's not even controlling it to where it might be excusable. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that there are supporters on both sides, the edits are so good by Eric in the articles that other users turn a blind eye at how other editors are being effected by his rage. It doesn't stop there though the same supporters then chime in that other editors are at fault for being the aggressors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I looked on the talk page and read "That looks pretty good to me and seems to summarise the uncertainty about numbers pretty well. If Dennis Brown agrees, I'd be happy to add something along those lines to the article." from Eric in response to somebody who made a suggestion. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. This section is not about Eric anyway, it's about the overall issue and how to improve relations on the site.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

That is taken out of context from "Production numbers for Versions section", Andy refers to a comment made by Eric in another section, the FA one. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, I think you are wasting your time and energy trying to convince everyone that Eric is not the disruptive force that he obviously is. I wonder how many articles could have been improved if the same amount of energy that is expended defending him was put into article space. His position it that his 47 FAs give him carte blanche to act as he pleases, but TMK, there is no such policy or guideline to support that position. He's your buddy, we get it, but why should anyone else care that Eric has made a few friends that he has decide to not abuse? The value of his contributions has long been overshadowed by the time-sink that is his ongoing behavior problem. He is too immature to be as intelligent as he seems to think he is, as his emotional maturity is not in any sense superior to the majority of Wikipedians. If anything, it's lower than average. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, now this has turned into another Eric onslaught this is my last point here. Disappointing. I'm sick of the same thing happening time and time again. Either you set out very strict guidelines on what can be said with little tolerance universally or you simply ignore it and get on with editing. This attacking Eric and the repeated blocking and unblocking and drama has to stop. I seem to be one of the few people here trying to at least find a solution to at least improve the silly situation. Jimbo, you need to understand that there is far more to the problem than Eric simply calling xxx a xxx and far more to him as an editor. I'd rather he didn't say what he thinks to people so much, to avoid the drama and making him an easier target if nothing else, but as Carrite said he is who he is and you can't change him. A lot of the time he's right about the individuals and idiocy, even if he is ruder than most in telling them. I've spent a lot of my time commenting on this because I very much care about content production on here and the same cycle again and again is draining the time and effort of good contributors here who should be spending the time on articles. The problem has got worse since those things were said at Wikimania, and Jimbo's words have increased the number of bounty hunters looking for quick brownie points. As Giano said, if he's that much of a problem prosecute him for his crimes to humanity and stop moaning about it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

RE: as Carrite said he is who he is and you can't change him Is this not true of almost every editor who has ever been banned by the community? If Eric cannot, or will not change so as to conform to the community's basic civility expectations then he should be banned like anybody else would. His edits do not make a case for exemption, and his behavior has obviously been a disruptive time-sink. If this is about the good of the project we should ban him to save time and energy, as he is not worth it. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Does this "seem perfectly reasonable" as a reply to a new editor? How about this? Andy Dingley (talk) 16:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

To quote a recent comment, "He drives drives new editors away. He is toxic and immature". The original author was then accused of NPA and being a sockpuppet for not providing diffs. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree with User:Andy Dingley. An episode like that is an utter disgrace to wikipedia. The comments by Eric Corbett are wholly indefensible. This is not about "driving editors away" it's about not allowing editors to ever get started. I'd be put off for good by such a disgusting attack. And how do you judge if an editor has been "driven away" if he's almost immediately blocked? Incredible. 86.171.152.172 (talk) 21:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yep, there's a question of how some of those articles made it to FA in the first place, and how they've been kept there, despite frequent attempts to correct 'howlers' and update them, since. There's aspects of this that involve WP:Own and without other editors it would never be at this point. AnonNep (talk) 16:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I agree with Dr.Blofelds civility plan 110%Amanda Smalls 15:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree as well, something needs to change here. I also speak from being on the other end of the stick. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

So instead of allowing zero personal attacks, which we can't enforce at present, the proposal is to allow 3 personal attacks per person, and to reset the insult clock every 6 months? Is this some kind of joke? —Neotarf (talk) 17:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Exactly! Dr. Blofeld's proposal is unworkable, but I wonder about setting a maximum number of blocks, so that when someone reaches say their 10th block for incivility it triggers a 6 month ban. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It's nothing in comparison to the massive joke in governance which already exists on wikipedia and the clown operation we have running on here which can't even find a way to deal with this and can't even find a way to stop history repeating itself every few weeks. I think a three warnings and six month/year ban approach is perfectly reasonable if personal attacks are not acceptable. Eric has called how many people xxxx exactly and still edits here. He's having the last laugh at the incompetency of the way the site is run.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well the proposals you are making don't sound any better now that I think about it. Blocking Eric wont solve incivility here on Misplaced Pages but it will benefit a lot of editors from his long term abuse. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:20, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Haha, you really think 3 attacks and a ban for a year doesn't sound any better than xxx number of attacks, ten 48 hr blocks, 20 drama sessions etc, and still allowed to edit? C'mon, you'd be lost without him Knowledge, you'd have nobody to troll and moan about! At present attacking Eric is the best way to earn Brownie points!♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, you're giving out mixed signals here. Most of your posts seem to be aimed at keeping this Eric guy on Misplaced Pages, yet this 3 strikes proposal would seem to me to be a guaranteed way to kick him off it (eventually). From what I've seen, unless you make the work off period needed to cancel a strike ridiculously short (in comparison to the accumulative period), then people like Eric will simply career head long into a 3+3+3 ban within two years (especially if the threshold for getting a strike is simply a "sweary remark").

Evidence has been presented on this very page that shows that he is more than capable of earning strikes at sufficient rate to make this an inevitability, even if what you had to do to earn a strike was even more serious than just injudicious use of bad language (which really doesn't appear to be the issue people have with him), and was instead set to the more likely threshold, per NPA, deliberately demeaning/belittling/denigrating another user in a most personal manner (which more accurately reflects why people seem to think he doesn't belong here).

As others have suggested here, all the evidence shows that he is either incapable or unwilling to change his behaviour on any long term basis (certainly not long enough to ever get back to 0 strikes), and even you seem to admit there is a certain inevitability about him losing his cool (especially if the victim 'deserved it'), so what gives? What have I missed? More importantly, in contrast to the prize people like Eric would get under such a system (a limited license to vent at others), what amazing prize do you earn if you manage to go two years without earning a single strike, whilst in that period also managing to write X number of fantastic articles? If it's not a Porsche, I'm not interested. Patrol forty (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I feel that WP:NPA covers it and explains why making attacks on other editors isn't helpful. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Patrol forty. Absolutely I don't want to lose Eric as a content contributor here, which is why I've fought to the tooth and nail to defend him a lot of the time. I genuinely mean it when I say I've found him one of the best editors on here and a master copyeditor when he's in the zone. I personally don't find what he says to people particularly offensive, and I think in some cases he's right to be annoyed at idiocy, but I do see why some people are offended by it and I don't think it is compulsory to go about calling people cunts on here, put it that way. Basically I see a massive problem with the drama and the hostility and time wasting which results every time he is blocked and unblocked and how many otherwise productive contributors here spend time fighting the trigger happy admins and lynchers and the content vs civility argument. I've said for a long time now it's got to stop. I don't think many people here could deny that the current system of dealing with Eric creates a staggering amount of unnecessary drama and time wasting in discussions about him. That for me is far worse than what is said in the first place. So as much as I value Eric, if he's going to continue to say what he wants in full knowledge that somebody is going to kick up a fuss and block him, then to avoid that escalating, if the people running the website think civility is more important, then he either needs to try to be silent about the obvious assholes he encounters or something in place needs to be introduced to stop it happening time and time again. Perhaps if Eric knew calling somebody xxx would result in a ban for a year or something he might make that bit more effort to avoid it, however much he feels it necessary. Given that it's a volunteer website, he's quite right that he should really be able to say and do what he wants given that we're unpaid and don't have to be here anyway, but as it's quite clear the people running the site and many in the community object to him saying what he wants then some compromise at least is needed to at least try to move on more smoothly. The last thing I want is him to be banned, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit to wanting to see a better Eric who rises above all that and doesn't make himself so easy to target and dismisses the obvious assholes he encounters as not worthy of his words and leaves it at that. There's a group of toxic editors just waiting to pounce on him, so why give them what they want? That so many people like Jimbo only know him for being rude is terrible, and he's not getting the recognition he deserves because of it. Above all I want to see Eric consistently at his best and the drama fest every few weeks stopped. He's worth 50 of what some of the people here are worth to the project when he puts his mind to it, and I want everybody to see that, Jimbo included. I think some leeway for every editor should be allowed here, things can get heated, but I do see a repeat cycle every few weeks which a lot of us regulars who support Eric's work here and know how decent he can be as a person when things are going well don't want to have keep dealing with and defending all the time.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has the wrong idea about him, least of all Mr Wales. They just see him in a different light than you seemingly do, because they evidently do put more emphasis on people on Misplaced Pages treating each other with respect. Presumably precisely because they know full well people are free to leave the site at any time, and no amount of awesome contributions on his part is going to make up the shortfall. As you rightly said, nobody here is being paid to be demeaned or degraded - there are certainly other websites on the internet performing that service far more effectively than Misplaced Pages ever could. In the absence of any realistic proposals from you that will change the system in a way that gives people leeway without causing drama, I think it's decision time for you to be honest - if you think he can be saved from himself, then you're going to have to put more effort into getting him to change his behaviour than whatever it is you think you're achieving here. Painting his victims as the assholes, or indeed painting him as the victim, is going to get you precisely nowhere, because such a stance is, based on the evidence on this very page, at best, a rose tinted view of reality. If not, then I think you already deep down know what the outcome is, should a system ever be found which actually deals with it in a timely fashion without drama. FWIW, I'd advise you to concentrate on the things within your control, and forget about those that aren't. Eric's future behaviour is either within your sphere of influence, or it isn't - realising which one of those is true will probably save you a lot of stress and time going forward. Patrol forty (talk) 22:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying that every person he directs something at is an "asshole", I know he's offended some editors like Khazar and Tim riley who I consider decent editors. I'm referring to those individuals who know they're here primarily to cause trouble and act intolerably over content and in addressing him. He does have to deal with a lot of crap and I agree with his outlook on some of them even if I wouldn't tell them exactly what I was thinking. Look, I've said that he could modify what he says from time to time, but at the same time others also need to change and stop targeting him waiting to trap and block him. I don't think Eric would give a chimp's left nipple about such a system no, but my hope was that he'd care enough about content to at least adapt a bit and we'd see it happening less purely out of a love of content if nothing else. I'm just sick of the circus show every time he's blocked and you add that up in a whole year per involved editor. Not good. Oh, and for the record, I'm intelligent enough to know that nothing on wikipedia in terms of the way the site is run is within my sphere of influence because of the way the site is run where you'll be lucky to see one site change in five years. That's one of the biggest problems on here as some of the top contributors here, some of which have commented in recent days, appear to have a much better idea and understanding of how to improve the encyclopedia and solve problems than those running it do but are never given the time of day. The resistance to change is one of the things holding back our development. If we're not constantly trying out and experimenting with different things we're never going to find the best way to run this thing. My last post here, I hope some actually try to see some sense in what I've said. But this isn't the place to really see a positive improvement.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, I can't help but wonder why nearly every comment you make here seeks to minimizes the problem. Here is Eric calling someone an idiot over a comma, so please don't imply that Eric is always driven to abusive language by especially extenuating circumstances. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, most of the time whenever I see a comment it's usually directed at somebody who is utterly clueless and acting in the fashion which he describes. In some cases in all honesty there's some truth to some of his remarks for a shocking level of ignorance and idiocy, there's some real annoying people on this website, but there's also some perhaps who have been treated rather harshly for something minor. For the sake of the peace of the website though I think it can try to be avoided, or simply get another editor to make the needed changes if he thinks he's going to say something. Look, I don't want to argue this anymore. I think the personal attacks on Eric here, especially in his absence really need to stop, and that goes for you too Jimbo, and I think somebody with half a brain who has the power to start to make changes should find a way to deal with the repeat cycle and try to make things run smoother here, whilst retaining Eric and others so that we no longer have to keep arguing about this. A good place to start would be examining the root of the problem and realise that the admin structure and system in parts is to blame for a lot of the issue and works in a way which antagonizes people like him and to recognize that gross incivility exists beyond weary attacks psychologically on here (which is a far more toxic problem). Too much time wasted on this people, discussing this isn't going to solve anything and those of us intelligent enough here to formulate a suggestion to try to reduce the drama and conflict will be ignored and this archived within a day or two anyway. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:29, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

whenever I see a comment it's usually directed at somebody who is utterly clueless: more often than his talkpage stalkers are willing to admit, it's Eric who is utterly clueless. Even in those situations, it's Eric who's whipping out the "you're the cunt"s, while everyone else is trying to be civil. Talk:Sunbeam Tiger/Archive 2's another embarrassing example, as is Talk:Blue men of the Minch. Can we stop this pretending? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I think personal attacks by Eric really need to stop, yeah there might be annoying people here on wikipedia but that's life you don't go ranting over people for making mistakes and if you find them annoying then you deal with it and move on not belittle them, this is not grade school. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Its more turning the blind eye, you have so far posted evidence that Eric has lashed out at new users and blows up over the smallest things and yet it went ignored. Sorry that was Andy Dingley but still. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is Eric calling someone a "tedious twat" and suggesting they "try writing a decent article of your own for once", which would seem to violate NPA and OWN. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Also calling the admin who blocked him a "drug-addicted hillbilly" ? Looking at Chillum's userpage I found this: "Hello, I am Chillum. I like to chill out and smoke the herb. I sell coins for a living. I like to develop software" If this doesn't count as a serious personal attack I don't know what does. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Knowledgekid I suggest that you take your own advice, "you don't go ranting over people for making mistakes and if you find them annoying then you deal with it and move on not belittle them, this is not grade school" and drop the stick. J3Mrs (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I was not replying to you. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This is ironic and amusing. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Very much so.. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Cheer up, folks

"It's nice, to be nice, to the nice" - Frank Burns (M*A*S*H TV series). GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I try, after all this is just a website ^-^. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

WP needs to evolve

For God's sake, the solution is obvious. (Jimbo, I plead you, for inspiration watch: Star Trek: The Motion Picture!) WP needs to evolve. Said evolution will solve all these bickering, "unsolvable" problems. (It means radical restructuring. What restructuring? I don't know, but there are 10 editors who do: The top 10 content contributors, elected by the WP community. )

This is the solution. It is appropriate, and guarantees a bright future. There is no chance for failure with it. Just the courage to restructure, rather than suffer the countless problems exacerbated by the current structure. (E.g., suggestions that Eric is a great content contributor but "just cannot control himself" is bogus and absurd. The fact is, he's enormously capable and intelligent, and is simply responding to the current dysfunctional structure full of flaws and hypocrisies. Put him to work with other top writers to solve/evolve out of the current conundrums. Given time/discussion such a team will work it out. Elect 15 so there are 5 backups if RL considerations cause any of the elected 10 must drop out. Not all top content contributors will want to offer their services {they may just want to continue to devote themselves to writing}, but many probably will, since their investments to-date dictate instinctive perservation of all the good that has been wrought from the wonderful seed of idea to make a comprehensive encyclopedia free to the world. {I suggest too, to get Neil deGrasse Tyson as spokesperson for the ongoing efforts of encyclopedia writers and the core top 10 team. I'm sure he will agree to do, free-of-charge, happily! <Because he is a good man, with eye on the future.>}]) Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Again per above saying that Eric has done no wrongdoing is absurd as is the idea of editors being paid for their work. This is an encyclopedia we are supposed to be working together here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:42, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Pure negative and not listening to the message I wrote. (It doesn't matter if Eric is guitly of "wrongdoing" or not. You're jumping on one person, the symptom not the cause. Try and think positive. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

"top 10 content contributors," "content"? Are we counting words in mainspace, or AfD tags?. "elected by the WP community" Oh, you mean Eric. 8-( Andy Dingley (talk) 16:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

So we put in place in this 'Top Ten content contributors' team and OMG! Misplaced Pages is farting rainbows but then one of the top ten calls someone a c*nt, tells another user they're stupid, suggests only an idiot would do that in an edit summary etc. What happens next? AnonNep (talk) 17:04, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It becomes a "We are better than everyone else" thing, the behavior continues and more editors leave as a result. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@AnonNep, @Knowledge -- so negative! Not "farting rainbows". (Solutions will take time, and be carefully worked out.) And your supposition that members will be uncivil in such a group/team is not logical -- the top 10 are too brainy to get into pointless/unproductive scrappiness. ) @Knowledge, the "we are better than everyone else" is eliminated in the fact that the top 10 are elected (and ejected) by the community (just like Arbcom). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

So anyone 'brainy' enough for the 'top ten' wouldn't be calling other editor's c*unt's right now? Or, are you suggesting they're lashing out because they're insecure and after being given formal recognition as part of the 'top ten' any abusive behaviour will suddenly end? AnonNep (talk) 18:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Anon, that's so (negative and) weird! The top 10 team will discuss in their group. (Public or private, I dunnah know. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You seem very focused on how important and special this 'Top Ten' will be but seem to show very little concern for possible victims of abuse. Straight question: What happens when a 'Top Ten' member calls someone a c*nt - keeping in mind they need to be answerable to the victim and the rest of Misplaced Pages not just each other - straight answer is... AnonNep (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

All editors should be treated the same regardless of their edit count, and making a hierarchy of exalted ones would only contribute to the problem. E.g., Eric thinks he is above the basic civility requirements because of his FAs and GAs, but who cares how many edits he's made? I do find it amusing that he put a "Master Editor" badge on his user page even though he is apparently 19,000 edits short of that distinction, but I digress. We are raking our brains for a solution, but it's already right in front of us, as Eric's behavior is already counter to policy. We need not reinvent the wheel here, we should ban Eric because anybody else would have been banned by now. It's not complicated; he does not deserve a green-light to abuse people at the expense of the project as a whole. We ought to put the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the one. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, EC did edit under another username and many of his contributions remain attributed to that account. I am fairly certain that he is fully entitled to display the "Master Editor" badge.—John Cline (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well then that's my error and a cheap shot anyway. I assumed that he had changed names but not accounts. I sincerely apologize to Eric for being petty. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Who said anything about "edit count"? (Not me. "Top ten" means the top content contributors most obvious to the community, who both contribute & value the encyclopedia by their proved contributions/writing efforts/time/sweat/tears.) And your continued harping on an individual editor of disfavor is ... toxic and has no vision for solution out of problems. (Go read again the proposals above. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I hear you, and I applaud your effort and attitude, but I don't like hierarchy's or pseudo-supreme courts; we already have ArbCom. I don't think we need to invent a new solution, the currently policies and guidelines are already plenty enough to ban problem editors, which is the most important step in protecting and nurturing a positive environment. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Rather than discuss it here I would be very interested in how the community feels about this proposal. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Concur. (But especially would like to get Jimbo's feeling re the evolution proposal here.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You're not going to find out how the community feels about the proposal, because every time someone makes a formal proposal, one of Eric's friends closes the discussion. —Neotarf (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well then someone can reopen it, if what people are saying here is true they should have no problem having the community weigh in on it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The only way to do this right is to organize. Eric's friends prevent his getting banned, but does he really have more friends than people he has abused? Rationalobserver (talk) 17:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, organize. (But huh?! You are still obsessed over one individual. You don't get it. Eric is one drop in the bucket. Together they will work it out . It's all good.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If you think it's a good idea then take it to the Village Pump. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

To die there? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Its not going to go anywhere here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Corbett is currently named as a party to an Arbcom case at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force. For anyone who wants to present diffs, one way or another, the evidence phase closes tomorrow. I doubt very much whether Corbett's enablers will be able to subvert the ArbCom process completely, if there are any users who are not too intimated to speak. —Neotarf (talk) 18:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

As I just said below, it puzzles me why the links presented above by Nyth83 yesterday haven't been presented as evidence. They seem quite convincing if the goal of that page is to demonstrate (rather than just allege) that he has an ongoing issue with being able (or indeed even willing) to treat other editors with a basic level of respect, that the issues with his behaviour go beyond just the use of bad language and fall squarely in the realm of demeaning/belittling/degrading others on a very personal level (NPA), and they also debunk many of the claims being made here by some about what might explain/excuse/justify such behaviour (namely that it's evidently not always 'deserved', or even justified, however loosely you might want to define those terms in a way that allows for 'colourful' characters to be able to contribute to Misplaced Pages alongside others who are more able/willing to 'conform'). Patrol forty (talk) 18:45, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso - thanks for a most valuable proposal . I think you're absolutely right that only a design led restructuring is likely to halt Misplaced Pages's decline. Also this is the best venue IMO. The proposal, at least in the modified form suggested below, needs buyin from Jimbo / the Foundation / Wllm and it doesn't overly matter what the community thinks at this stage.

Im not sure even our top content contributors would be best suited to the task. Reforming Misplaced Pages so editors can enjoy a relatively pleasant, thoughtful and collaborative editing environment is a non trivial task, close to the limits of human capability. One would need to address the underlying causes of not just the overt incivility, but the passive aggression which you, AnthonyColes and others rightly describe as far more harmful.

Eric may be a brilliant man, but he's not a first rate social engineer. I doubt any other of our top content creators are either.

In founding Misplaced Pages Jimbo Wales has been one of the 21st centuries greatest contributors to humanity. But reading recent posts Im not seeing an especially penetrating understanding of the negative social dynamics here - thinking Eric could be misogynist is a case in point.

There seems to be some great staff working and running the Foundation, but they're mostly techies. Wllm has some very attractive ideas, but if he thinks he can effect lasting change with lessons from smaller and relatively homogeneous online communities he'll soon be disillusioned.

Probably the only way to architect a restructuring leading to a lasting improvement in community health would be to commission a team of top line social engineers. 1) An expert in Deliberative democracy with plenty of experience in practical implementation, preferably near to the stature of someone like James Fishkin. 2) A leading expert in online communities, ideally with a specialization in power dynamics. 3) An experienced real world political fixer and consensus builder. They would need months to study, engage and consult with the community before finalising plans for the restructuring. These kind of people don't come cheap, a large six figure budget would be needed. FeydHuxtable (talk) 18:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Some reforms we need really aren't that complicated. For example:

• Set up a random jury system for deciding "verdicts" in "judicial" matters, rather than relying on the impartiality of arbitrators/admins. That way they can stick to interpreting the rules narrowly, and the impartiality of decisions is clearer, or at least randomer.

• Set up a work-based path to adminship, no votes and politics. You put in the effort and do (a), (b), (c), (d) without getting "convicted" of some sort of misconduct, you are qualified as a good enough editor all-around to do adminly tasks. Setting up some a la carte admin privileges ("unbundling") can be part of this.

• Remove every invocation of "editorial discretion" from policy. Editorial discretion doesn't make sense in an environment anyone can edit - it's like a flag in a video game. As long as there are flags, people fight for them; as long as editors are encouraged to use broad latitude to exclude information based on discretion, rather than clear policy guidance, they will fight over whose POV commands the gray area. Policy should be simple and focus on the basics of verifying the facts and handling them neutrally.

• Do not encourage templating. No one should have an expectation or duty to read and comprehend a message that a human being didn't take the time to write personally to him. Much of the incivil attitude on Misplaced Pages doesn't actually originate from human beings; it is people echoing and reechoing attitudes that ultimately began, one way or another, in a machine.

Wnt (talk) 19:35, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Except for removing editorial discretion I agree, and especially with what you say on templating. But even if you could identify all the needed reforms, we'd never get any where near consensus from the dominant portion of the active editors, who like and helped create the status quo. For me it would need a small team of leading experts, with a period of structured engagement with the community to gain legitimacy (partly by including some community generated ideas, perhaps some of your own.) And then for the Foundation to take the lead in implementing the reforms, by force majeur if necessary. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

By force? No rather than discuss behind semi closed doors why aren't you proposing ideas? Just because your ideas were shot down awhile ago or because you are in the minority does not mean you have to force your ideas on the masses. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with setting up "a work-based path to adminship, no votes and politics", but as long as admins can block !vote you will never see this to fruition. The only way to accomplish this via consensus is to disallow admins from !voting on the proposal, which is an unlikely scenario. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine an Internal Affairs department seeking pre-approval from the law enforcement officers they oversee. If they want to implement a change they do so without the consent of those potentially affected. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Per above I have started a discussion over at WP:PUMP you can find it here Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Reform for Misplaced Pages - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• The more amusing point about the above discussions is the people that haven't really contributed much to Misplaced Pages, aren't frankly competent enough to do so, and yet believe that their opinions about Eric and civility are worth listening to. They should really just disappear back to Facebook where they belong, but that's one of the problems with an encyclopedia that any idiot can edit. Black Kite (talk) 00:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• So you are saying that new users with few edits who have been rubbed the wrong way by Eric and are speaking their minds about it are in-competent? They should believe that they are being listened to as they are here by others who agree both new and old editor alike that enough is enough. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Hm. How many of the new users to whom you refer have been "rubbed the wrong way by Eric"? Can you not see that there has been a sudden revived upsurge in the "civility" campaign. I've been pondering why that should be so but have no answers yet. - Sitush (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Do you not see the diffs posted above? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:35, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Perhaps many of those editors would find it more rewarding to actually go away and write content for Misplaced Pages rather than engaging in arguments that they're not competent enough to either engage in, or indeed win. Having said that, looking at the quality of English on show there, perhaps it's better that they don't. Black Kite (talk) 00:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Honestly, the day anything approaching Ihardlythinkso's ... suggestion ... were to be enacted would be the day I put a retirement banner up and leave the site behind entirely. And I would simply laugh in the face of anyone attempting to form a random (read: ignorant) "jury", then I would ignore it and keep doing what I was doing. Resolute 00:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

A Brief Summary

I would like to try to summarize the last few threads briefly. First, there is strong disagreement about a particular editor who is generally credited with being an excellent content creator, but who has a is also said to have very long history of incivility and personal attacks. Some editors think that he is a net positive to the encyclopedia, and others think that he is a net negative and creates a toxic environment. Further discussion at Jimbo's talk page isn't about to resolve the division over this editor. Second, several editors have commented that the environment at the noticeboards is toxic. The noticeboards and the ArbCom are the mechanisms by which sanctions are imposed on disruptive editors, and the ArbCom is slow, so that the noticeboards are the only means by which speedy sanctions can be imposed. Third, at least two editors have proposed systems for reform of the English Misplaced Pages. One of those reform proposals has been questioned and criticized. The other one seems to have been ignored. Some sort of reform might be an alternative to the noticeboards. Can Jimbo or the WMF take the leadership concerning civility, the noticeboards, and reforms? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Do other editors think that is a reasonable summary of the last few noisy threads? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• That sounds about right to me. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• No objection. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Yup pretty much... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• No. Subjective analysis, eg: "who has a very long history of incivility and personal attacks" should be something like "is perceived by some to have a very long history of incivility and personal attacks". Most of his blocks haven't stuck, for example. Furthermore, I wouldn't trust Jimbo to lead a group of children across the road, let alone take the lead regarding any resolution to this issue. He has nailed his flag to the mast re: civility and, frankly, the sooner he takes heed of what HJ Mitchell said regarding "constitutional monarch", the better. As things stand at the moment, Jimbo is himself at least as lacking in honour and toxic as those to whom he has applied such terms in the past. He needs to rise above it all, as befits his perceived public status. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Re Second, Decausa flagged up that Misplaced Pages is adversarial even in its basic editing processes, to some applause. NebY (talk) 18:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Just curious but what do you attempt on accomplishing? If you propose new things for Misplaced Pages then take it to village pump. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Robert McClenon started all this palaver by requesting arbitration and mentioned Jimbo Wales in his reasons for doing so. He's hardly a neutral voice. This situation has been stirred by Jimbo Wales who won't/can't do anything but gets others to do his dirty work for him. I think I can speak for myself without him summarising what I mean. J3Mrs (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You're speaking, but you're not listening. The claims you made about what Eric does and doesn't do have been contradicted by links posted on this very page, yet you seem content to completely ignore them, which is an odd stance to take for someone who said there are "two sides to every dispute", or is concerned about neutrality. On that score, you're clearly advocating for one side, and one side only. I have no doubt Eric has "helped more editors than you can count", but it seems to me that you're not even remotely interested in counting the editors he has categorically not helped, such as those mentioned in the links above. I am also at a loss as to what to make of the 'suffer fools' comment. Everything I've read as far as Misplaced Pages's rules go, makes it pretty clear that the way you should treat others here is with respect, regardless of whether or not you think they're a fool. Patrol forty (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't start this "palaver". I only summarized it. This "palaver" is only indirectly related to the Gender Gap arbitration. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• You underestimate yourself, it is a direct result of your action. J3Mrs (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

No, no, no. Robert McClenon is obviously well-suited to his role. In fact, he has far more experience of dabbling round the edges than of content creation. There is a lot of that about on this particular page, including the situation of its owner. - Sitush (talk) 20:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Sitush, do you have any idea at all, how it makes me view the problematic edits you've made regarding me, to see you flinging ad hominem here, while allowing people on your talk page to continue lamenting the fact that you supposedly aren't editing at all any more? There is a thing called honesty and there is a thing called trolling. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't really care less how you view it, Demiurge. In particular because if anyone has a reputation for trolling it is you. I am editing under very constrained circumstances, some of which are known to people who matter. Right now, you do not matter but you may in due course be able to read of it in, say, The Times of India. - Sitush (talk) 23:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Ha. I was just about to request a summary of why this Eric guy has become such a divisive figure on Misplaced Pages, but as I was drafting this, Robert has helpfully provided one, so thanks for that. In my short time here I think I've got a good idea of what Misplaced Pages's major problem might be - it seems to me to have nothing to do with bad language, and everything to do with people deliberately ignoring others.

I myself recently used bad language (on the Aviation project talk page), but while I could say I was entirely justified, after someone twice accused me of "suspect motives" and said they found me "repulsive", despite me giving a thorough reply to them the first time they made the accusation, which they just ignored, even then, I felt guilty about having stooped to that level, and was surprised to not even be warned about it. I did notice one thing in all this text which appears to support my theory - the links presented above by Nyth83 yesterday seem to debunk many of the claims being made about this Eric guy, yet they persist regardless.

To my mind, the links showed quite clearly that he doesn't restrict his attacks merely to those who 'deserve it' (even if you were to accept the false premise that this would even be OK for a project like Misplaced Pages). They also show quite well that the controversy over his behaviour has very little to do with the 'badness' of any particular words he uses, but rather the intent behind them (to deliberately belittle and demean the other person, which seems to me to be indisputably against NPA).

On that note, as a Brit living in a working class northern city myself, I can confirm that while c*nt is used liberally in many situations, context matters, and it seems clear to me that none of those contexts apply on Misplaced Pages (basically, you can use it between friends, and even then only when it is obvious it's not meant as an insult - any other use is as offensive in the UK as it would be in the bible belt of America, and can result in violence if not retracted quickly).

But it seems to me those links might has well never been posted, for all the difference it appears to have made to the subsequent discourse. Which brings me to my issue - I had a similar experience when I tried to discuss whether or not the sources provided in the article on the HMS Richmond helicopter crash satisfy EVENT or not. I seem to have lost that argument by default because most people just chose to completely ignore me, while those who didn't, instead chose to reply to points I never made. Nobody ever really addressed any of the substantive issues I had. But reading up on some of this controversy, I do at least seem to have been lucky in avoiding being called a c*nt, idiot, moron, or whatever, so maybe I got off lightly? Patrol forty (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You're a fast learner, I didn't find pages like this for ages. J3Mrs (talk) 21:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not exactly hidden away, and I don't think me finding it after a few weeks snooping around the back offices of Misplaced Pages makes me a fast learner by any means, but thanks for the compliment. I've been getting a few tonight, so thank you all for that. Patrol forty (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty good summary of much of the "argument" here. Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I hope you like it and decide to stay. It can be a very satisfying hobby/public service and we need help in all domains - vandal patrol, article-writing, article-polishing, administration, governance and policy development. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for creating Misplaced Pages!

	Pika!!
	Have A Pikachu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Daemon64 (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2014 (UTC)