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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 31 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 29 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 97 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 77 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 68 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 59 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 51 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Wicked (2024 film)#RfC on whether credited name or common name should be used

(Initiated 33 days ago on 11 December 2024) Participation mostly slowed, should have an independent close. Happily888 (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done @Happily888: guninvalid (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 24 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 12 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 12 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 110 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 76 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 67 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 16 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

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Requesting AWB access ( User: OccultZone )

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Following a complaint on ANI about 70 days ago, my AWB access was revoked by Nick after community consensus.(check )

Yesterday I had asked Nick if I should request for the AWB access based on my performance since the revocation.(check ) I hereby request access to AWB.

I apologize for any inconvenience I caused. I understand the concerns that were raised. During this period, I have made about 30,000 edits and avoided any mistakes. I have been involved with a few backlogs, article creation, promotion to GA, DYK.

Thanks -- OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 08:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you give us a summary of what you did wrong, and what you intend to do differently if we decide to give you back your AWB access? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Od Mishehu: I had changed dates on about 245 pages, and carried out delinking of wikilinks on articles, such edits violates rules of AWB.

I won't be doing that again. I will be mostly using AWB for working on the backlogs as usual, like I have done before. For a name, there is a category, Category:Infobox book image param needs updating. Used to have about 15,000 previously, I had fixed 5595. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. You weren't stripped of AWB access for delinking and changing dates, and the link you provide above is rather disingenuous – this is the actual discussion that led to your being barred from AWB. Those were just two of a big stack of reasons, and the briefest glance at your recent contributions shows that the circumstances which led to it haven't been addressed. Among the things that led to your being stripped of the bit were making strings of trivial edits with no visible impact on an article – still going on as of today; and, more significantly, making rushed script assisted edits without bothering to check their edits, resulting in errors being introduced into the mainspace – , , , , today alone. Yes, everybody makes mistakes and one mistake every thousand or so edits is understandable, but that's five obvious errors (in the sense that even the quickest of glances would have told you you were making a mistake) out of 28 mainspace edits today. An 18% error rate is atrocious, especially since in light of this appeal you were presumably being more careful than usual. In light of what happened to Rich Farmbrough, you're getting off lightly in that it's only AWB you're blocked from. Mogism (talk) 15:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mogism: I have not used any scripts. I started doing the persondata backlog from today, are not errors. I agree that there were more than 2 concerns and also that the edits were contrary to the rules of AWB. I assure that I won't be making them. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@OccultZone: This edit was an error. You then kindly fixed the error a few hours later. GoingBatty (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mogism and OccultZone: Cleaning up backlogs is a reasonable task, even when it doesn't have a visible impact on the page. (The benefit of using AWB to make such edits is that it can also make other general fixes and typo fixes at the same time. The down side is that it takes longer to check each edit before saving.) It's great when OccultZone uses an edit summary to make it clear why the edit was being done, and suggest that OccultZone does so for every edit. I also suggest that OccultZone marks edits as minor edits when doing tasks such as adding {{Persondata}} short descriptions or {{WPBIO}} |listas= values. I wonder if this edit and this edit are correct. GoingBatty (talk) 20:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@GoingBatty: About , check . It was confirmed that Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean names are not same as the western, middle eastern and South Asian names. You can check the defaultsort, they are same. Check Hu Jintao's defaultsort for an example. is also correct because "Melamparambil" is not included in his real name, many Indian names include the name of profession or region. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I happened to work on persondata for the first time ever, today. Although it is pretty obvious that I would be more careful than ever with that, it was indeed first time and I know that I wasn't perfect with it. When I used AWB, I had "Typo fixing" disabled, and later I had also disabled "auto tagging". OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I happened to work on persondata for the first time ever, today. Well, no, you chose to work on it for the first time today. It's a subtle difference, but important. What made you choose it, and what research did you do concerning persondata before working on it? I'm asking not to be picky, but because I think your answer might be valuable in showing how you decide to do mass edits, and how you check the edits you have done. Begoon  22:31, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Correct and I looked on to the short descriptions that have been used by other similar articles, before I will add some. After these all edits, I have found that best way to check edit is to re-read before submitting it. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is obvious that whenever you have the latest evidence of violation, you are prevented from the right. Few days ago, I had opposed the rollback right of Flyer22, however, I had to realize after seeing the closure that output is also measured by the experience, that the user has with the distinctive editing pattern. When there is almost 0 trouble, it can be appreciable. I liked , After reading the users TP and archives I have found no issues which give me cause for concern. Noteswork (talk) 17:37, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Quoting GoingBatty: The down side is that it takes longer to check each edit before saving. Looking at the ANI discussion Mogism links, and reading Mogism's comments on recent errors even when editing manually, I think this is certainly one thing people will be concerned about. Editing at high speed needs good grasp of what is being done, and careful checking so that errors don't become a huge problem.

• The edit rates discussed at that ANI make checking edits next to impossible. Can Occultzone tell us what they will do about this issue, so that we can have confidence they will be actually checking edits?
• Additionally can they explain how they will deal with future concerns expressed by other editors with their automated editing? Again, reading that ANI, it seemed very difficult to get OZ to even admit they had made any errors at all. Communication, and possibly language, issues were a major stalling point in that discussion. Has there been progress there?
• Finally, will OZ make a firm commitment that, should errors, or a series of errors, be discovered in future automated edits, they will fix the errors themselves, immediately, before moving onto anything else?

I think answers to those questions might make folks more comfortable about this. Begoon  20:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• 12-17 edits every minute for hours may lead anyone to believe that I am not checking edits before clicking 'save' button. I don't deny that, I have actually worked on that by giving more time into making edits look more manual than I used to do before. Rechecking is always best way to deal with.
• Like Nick had analyzed in the end, that I was speaking more for saving the access than recognizing the mistake, he seemed to be correct with that. It can be seen through the archives of my talk page. But since the next day(18 July), I have not tried anyone to give any chance that they would complain. Tried to improve my approach in dealing with the people. Talk page remains free of complaints.
• Obviously and it is one of the core concept of editing that whenever you make any errors, you have to fix each of them. I am sure that I wouldn't be making in fair amount, and I will try figuring out soon. During these many edits(since revocation), I had some instances where I would make an error but fix it quickly. Thanks OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 22:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

But you didn't answer the questions at all really - by point, here's what you ignored or missed:

• You didn't tell us how you would check edits, you just were concerned with whether it "looked like" you were checking them. This sentence worries me enormously: I have actually worked on that by giving more time into making edits look more manual than I used to do before. You've worked on making your edits "look more manual"? How about working on actually checking them?
• I asked you how you would deal with future concerns.
• You didn't firmly commit to fixing all of your future errors immediately, before moving on. You did say you are aware of this, and you want to improve, so that's encouraging.

I'm sorry if you think I'm picking on you, and it's quite possible I've misinterpreted your answers, because, and here's the other problem, your English is very hard to understand. In the previous ANI you breezed past concerns about communication, raised by BrownHairedGirl and others, basically ignoring them. That worries me. I think you think your communication is better than it really is. It's actually very difficult to follow lots of what you say. I don't think it's wise to let folks who can't answer basic English queries about their actions in an understandable way use mass editing tools. Sorry if that's harsh, but there are practicalities to consider here. Begoon  23:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• I had answered that above, I had said that I re-read every edit before submitting. If I wasn't checking before submitting, I guess I would be having many of the errors and complaints during these 30,000 edits.
• I would attempt to resolve the issue before making any other edit that is related with the issue. For example, when I had started doing the listas parameter, I had complaints on first day, but that was also the last day. It is usually better to resolve at first.
• Yes I agree that I would fix the current issue before moving on, knowing that small amount of mistakes can take bigger form if they haven't been resolved. Just like it happened before, and it should be avoided.

In fact, I had promoted articles to GA, DYK. It was pretty easy to collaborate other editors who were working along. There were numerous queries, but I don't see them repeating same question or concern again. I agree that it was one of the issue that I would ignore the concerns about the edits that I was making, because I thought that I was going by the policy of basic editing although it contradicted the rules of AWB about which I wasn't so aware, but that was my ignorance. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 23:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all your answers. I'm sorry if you feel I bombarded you, but automated tools have the power to do a lot of damage, very quickly, which is difficult to fix. I'm not going to !vote either way - I think you have very good intentions, but I worry that you tend to overestimate your own language and editing knowledge and skills, which can cause problems, so that leaves me undecided, at this point. Begoon  00:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Still oppose I see no reason to reinstate AWB here. The tasks described sound like something that should be raised at WP:BOTREQ too. Lugnuts 08:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• During these 4 days, and considering the above mentioned discussion, I have made about 2000+ edits, it includes 1000 edits concerning with the living parameter. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:46, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Weak support I think we can give the access back. I revoked OccultZone's access once but I think they are more experienced after this time. We can always take the right back once again if more problems occur. The last time the problems were because they used a third-party script in a large scale. I also believe that it's better if they do any changes semi-automatically and slowly than with a bot. It's true they still make mistakes, most probably due to hight edit ratio, even without AWB. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

So access has been revoked more than once? I didn't realise that. I'm still concerned - I'd certainly like to see it stipulated as a condition of any return of access that they agree to immediately fix any errors pointed out to them, before moving on, as they seem to agree above. Begoon  08:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'd like to AGF and presume that OccultZone has "really learned a lot from {the} incident" and would benefit the project with renewed AWB access. I find i am unable to do so, however, on a couple of counts. One, i'm still concerned about communication ability; i don't really see improvement in it versus the previous incident. Two, the answers to Begoon's questions are, at best, evasive and, possibly actually deceptive; i would like to see more clear explanation from OZ of what he has learned and how he is planning to modify his behaviour. Three, the point Magioladitis raises, that AWB access has been revoked at least twice, with apparently no learning taking place the first time, at least needs to be answered before it is regranted. Cheers, Lindsay 22:20, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@LindsayH: I have answered every query, I know now better than what I used to do before that what users usually expect after they raise any concern about the mass editing, especially since the revocation I have tried giving them no chance as I have avoided objectionable edits. For the first time, like it was also noted in the ANI, it was revoked for a different reason. That time I had about 10k edits with AWB, but later, I had 85k, we can say that I had little better idea about not using AWB for the things that lead to revocation. For the 2nd time, it was due to the mass changes to wikilinks, and date/numbers. Although I realized that they are ultimately contradictory to the rules of AWB. I am also concerned with the backlogs that require attention. While most of them cannot be handled with semi-auto programs, some of them like I have named one among few others can be better handled with AWB. If we suppose that there would be similar circumstances like before, I will definitely seek consensus for the changes before making them. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 00:03, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support .. Starting from the end of last year, after Sati (practice) was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section, it was having many edit wars, I was informed by Mark Arsten on Indian noticeboard. My intervention was not a success, after a few days there were more doubts because one theory was not applying on other page or it's subsection that was actually relevant with the content of this page. I was kind of sure that this article would be brought to ARBcom.
  Occult has done enormous work on this article and adequately solved these disputes. It has been helpful for many other pages(e.g. Death by burning, Women in Hinduism). Bladesmulti (talk) 06:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

That's great. I'm not quite sure what it has to do with AWB access though, really. Seems to me if OZ has talents dealing with those Indian articles, something we desperately need, then he might be better off devoting more time to that, and less time to churning edits we could get bots to do, avoiding the risk of repeating the problems he's had with those. Just an idea, though, and obviously it's up to OZ how he wants to spend his time, in the end. Begoon  07:27, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for writing. My comment was more about how Occult is capable of handling situations. IMO, Occult has provided just enough evidence of an explanation that may reasonably be correct, and it will be sufficient for giving 'em enough rope. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but read what you linked... I don't want to see a well-intentioned user like OZ "hang himself". OZ has a lot to offer, and I don't want to see him back in the same, problematic situations he has been in, since we can't afford to lose good users. Begoon  12:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes it was a problematic situation, I regret it. I used to think that what I could do to avoid, still do. I can affirm that I've learned, will continue to learn without causing any trouble. All in all, thanks for the kind words! OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support Per Magioladitis and per commitment not to repeat the mistake in the future. VandVictory (talk) 05:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support - If we are indeed a community that believes in second chances, and one that understands that sometimes we all err (sometimes egregiously), then it seems logical to allow access back. I see a lot of discussion of minutia and use and such, but to me, granting access is primarily based on around the individuals general understanding of policy, their willingness to accept responsibility for the actions and overall "clue". OccultZone is a good editor, and like the rest of us makes mistakes, but I'm confident he will move forward with caution after this. If not, bit stripping is free and it can be removed again. In the spirit of giving bit access to anyone willing and capable, I think we should not hoard the bits here. Dennis 2¢ 16:28, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support per WP:ROPE.--v/r - TP 21:31, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Just unarchived this thread, it may require formal closure. Thanks OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 11:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Once again. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 13:13, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support I've basically retired, so didn't notice OZ had since unarchived this again, several times, until just now. The guy is obviously desperate for an answer, yet restrained and patient in that pursuit, and churning out productive edits meanwhile. This is a good thing, speaks well to his intentions, and makes me feel it would be unfair not to offer him that opportunity. I considered this unfinished business when I left, still do, and now urge someone to close it, in his favour. Do be careful, and responsive to concerns, though, OZ - use the WP:ROPE well - I doubt another "episode" concerning problems with mass editing would end well. Begoon  14:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

General sanctions for matters pertaining to units of measurement in Britain

Pursuant to a discussion at WT:MOSNUM, I'd like to propose that general sanctions be established for matter pertaining to units of measurement in Britain. This is a subject area that has seen persistent disruption for many years. For those not familiar with the situation, Britain is currently in a state where both metric units and imperial units coexist. Many people express a preference for one system or another, and the matter is quite political. Our style guide has recommendations about what units to use in articles with strong ties to Britain at WP:UNIT, but these have often been the subject of acrimonious debates. Edit wars about which units to display in articles have caused various problems, including a sock-puppetry campaign by banned user DeFacto. Given all this, and given the recurrent disruption and inordinate time-wasting that is caused by this type of behaviour, I'd like to propose enacting general sanctions, as I said above. These general sanctions would enact WP:1RR for edits that switch units between imperial and metric in UK-related articles, and would allow uninvolved administrators to place sanctions on those who behave disruptively in matters pertaining to British units of measurement. I'm open to other proposals, as well. However, I think that it is about time that something was done to curtail this incessant disruption. It is harmful to the encyclopaedia, it wastes time, and it causes editors to wage political wars on articles that scare aware good editors. Please do comment. I recommend that anyone who comments here should read the talk-page archives at WT:MOSNUM, as they provide a good history of the dispute. RGloucester — ☎ 18:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support This is long overdue. To put this into perspective, current guidance is to use predominantly metric units with the few exemptions defined where the imperial unit remains the primary unit and to provide a conversion; to be clear the guidance is to use both systems. Its a sensible compromise yet we have seen the talk page held hostage by pressure groups seeking to use wikipedia to advance an agenda; they are not here to build an encyclopedia. For example, the pressure group the UK Metric Association has been advocating its members use wikipedia to advance their agenda since 2008 , equally guilty are the British Weights and Measures Association . The problem is both camps are completely inflexible and compromise is an anathema to both, this is making consensus building impossible with ordinary editors unwittingly finding themselves in the middle. A perusal of the archive demonstrates just how much effort is diverted and wasted in dealing with utter trivia. WCM_email 23:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but where in your UK Metric Association source do you see them asking their members to use Misplaced Pages to advance their agenda? All I see (on page 4 of the newsletter) is a very sensibly written piece describing what Misplaced Pages is, noting that there are POV policies and style guides which need to be followed, and asking readers to "correct any inaccuracies" in articles related to metrication. It's pretty much the sort of neutrally worded message one might expect to see one of our own WikiProjects addressing to completely new editors. The British Weights and Measures Association post is similar; it simply describes a good-faith clarification they made to an article, and doesn't actually advocate its members to use Misplaced Pages for advocacy purposes. Maybe both groups really are using Misplaced Pages to push their points of view, but if so, there's no evidence in the links you've provided. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
• Weak support. The situation sounds rather problematic, and the proposed solution sounds good if applied only to individual editors, as proposed herein. The field is so broad that anything beyond the limited scope herein proposed would be destructive: we mustn't go any farther. Placing sanctions on the whole field would amount to general sanctions on the entirety of the UK, which would be nutso. Nyttend (talk) 23:42, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

@Nyttend: I didn't mean "the whole field", I meant what you said. I apologise if I wrote something misleading. Administrators should be able to place sanctions on individual editors, as proposed above, and as you said. RGloucester — ☎ 00:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I was supporting weakly because you said "I'm open to other proposals, as well". We should not be open to other proposals, because the only other proposals that would address this specific problem would be far more wide-ranging than would be appropriate. Nyttend (talk) 12:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. The situation in Britland isn't problematic, this appears to be a solution in search of a new way of spelling Aluminum. We really need to stop Americans using cups and spoons in recipes before tackling this. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 23:49, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? This has nothing to do with WP:ENGVAR. This is about British people arguing amongst themselves about whether metric or imperial units should be made primary in UK-related articles, not about Americans doing anything. The idea that "the situation isn't problematic" is absurd; I recommend you take a look at WT:MOSNUM at this very moment to see why it is problematic. RGloucester — ☎ 00:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

My point is that this is a non-issue, and you know it. The vast majority of Britlandians have no issues on this subject, and the WT:MOSNUM link is a hed rerring. The 'camps' are unimportant fringe nobodies, the issue in the UK has been settled for years. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 01:16, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Er...I don't know if it is settled or not, but I do know that people keep bring it up, edit warring over it. All the more reason to institute sanctions, so that the vast majority of Britons needn't be plagued by petty nonsense in British-related articles. RGloucester — ☎ 01:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. It's just a time-wasting discussion. Everyone who actually lives in Britain knows that we buy fuel by the litre but every road sign shows miles. Eric Corbett 00:44, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support Don't forget, Eric, milk is sold in pints AND litres. Blackmane (talk) 02:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

That particular kettle of fish has been boiling for ages. RGloucester — ☎ 02:41, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I know. It amused me the first time I saw it, but after living there for a while, it was something to get used to. Never ceases to amaze me how big a deal people make out of it. Blackmane (talk) 05:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support Going in pursuit of the original discussion and the statement by RGloucester. Edit war over minor units cannot be ignored. VandVictory (talk) 05:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Question relating to the implication if this proposal was accepted and implemented. Would this really apply to any editor who made unit changes to any of the 10000s of articles that may be considered to be related in such a way to that UK? If so, how would this sanction be publicised and made known to every new editor who came across what they thought was a unit anomaly in such an article. It wouldn't be practical to alert each and every editor about to make such a change to each and every qualifying, would it? ProProbly (talk) 06:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @ProProbly: If implemented like the WP:ARBPIA 1RR restriction, it would basically involve editors being notified after they made edits that changed measurement formats on British articles. After being notified, they would be blockable if they went on to violate the restriction. However, no-one should be blocked for violating 1RR if they have not been notified (although the ARBPIA page states this is possible, in practice it is not done). Number 57 09:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
    • @Number 57: Thanks, that helps clarify the likely consequences. That relies on someone who knows about this sort of thing spotting it. Would that also mean, do you think, that someone who changed a qualifying UK article to comply with their interpretation of the WP:UNITS guidelines would also be warned? ProProbly (talk) 20:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
      • @ProProbly: I wouldn't call it a warning - it's a notification that the sanctions exist. But yes, everyone who makes those kind of edits should be informed. Number 57 20:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/DeFacto Seems likely this is a sockpuppet of DeFacto. WCM_email 10:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• What about height - both metric and imperial are used in the UK (imperial probably more prominent IMO) and we have {{height}} which converts from one to the other, but which should be displayed primary? GiantSnowman 09:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Height is already in WP:UNIT, but see WT:MOSNUM#Which units should be primary for the height of a UK statue of a UK politician? for an example of how much heat and how little light can be generated by such questions. NebY (talk) 09:27, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

And thats a perfect example of disruption, where one editor took it upon themselves to edit counter to the Manual of Style, to work through a category switching unit order. They then bragged about it offsite and invited other members of their pressure group to join in. But of course per WP:OUT I can't point this out. WCM_email 10:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know that. Good grief. We so need general sanctions. NebY (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

What might not have come across in Curry Monster's point was the sheer scale of the abuse - this was well over a thousand articles over the course of several months (during this period, according to their contributions, this editor did little on Misplaced Pages other than converting articles in this category against MOSNUM consensus). Kahastok talk 18:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. We have a workable and mainly working compromise at WP:UNITS and a general desire for peace. But long conflict has left many twitchy and it would be impossible to agree a comprehensive phrasing of WP:UNITS that would cover every possible eventuality - previous attempts to tighten the phrasing have foundered in mutual suspicion of what loopholes and interpretations the other side might seek to exploit. It remains fertile ground for extremists, particularly one who refuses to accept consensus and has no compunction about, indeed takes pleasure in, stirring and wasting the time of fellow editors. NebY (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @NebY: The "compromise" does not reflect the real-life UK practice though and carries no explanation as to the reason for not so doing. It is not supported with evidence, in fact it flies in the face of the available evidence. In short it is totally biased in favour of the metric system. If we fix that, people might respect itProProbly (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@ProProbly: I'm glad to see you engaging in civil discourse here, however, this is not the place to go on about changing MOSNUM. That discussion should take place at the MOSNUM talk page. This discussion is only about the proposed general sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 20:29, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support—The immediate concern is the latest batch of DeFacto socks, and I don't think the issue would have come up here if there wasn't such a backlog at WP:SPI. We also have discretionary sanctions for WP:MOSNUM (thanks to NebY for pointing this out), but using this doesn't seem to be a good fit for blocking socks or solving the wider problem described in the proposal. If this is what it takes to get the disruption to stop, then let's do it. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I don't think Misplaced Pages needs punitive sanctions on discussing UK units. However, there should be some way of settling disputes over units that get out of hand and a more effective way of dealing with sockpuppets. It is crazy to fight over whether a statue was 9 feet or 2.7 metres tall. The best way to sort this out is to find out the actual height of the statue and go with that. I also think there's something wrong with a hard and fast diktat that all British heights and weights must be Imperial first when UK Rugby League, Rugby Union and Premier League put metric units first for their players. I think we all know that most milk in the UK is sold by the pint but some milk is also sold by the litre. However, MOSNUM could be read as if milk was only sold by the pint. While MOSNUM could do with some tweaking, there's no way that the general preference for miles could or should be overturned at this time. Michael Glass (talk) 12:51, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Mr Glass, whilst I do respect your opinion, this is not the place to be discussing changes to MOSNUM. That's a different pint-bottle of fish, meant to be dealt with at MOSNUM. The purpose of this proposal is to provide mechanisms for dealing with disruption in this topic area, not to quash discussion on potential changes to MOSNUM. Third-party administrators would be able to impose sanctions, as appropriate, on editors who "repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process" (copied from WP:General sanctions). RGloucester — ☎ 12:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

OK, but much of the discussion here has been about what MOSNUM says. If the sanctions are going to apply to such things as edit warring over units of measure, fair enough, but if the sanctions are going to be applied to offences against MOSNUM, then MOSNUM had better be beyond reproach. Michael Glass (talk) 13:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Michael Glass: No, no. Not "offences against MOSNUM". MOSNUM is not and will never be infallible. Like I said, the point is not to quash discussion about changing MOSNUM, but to curtail disruptive behaviour in those discussions. Only uninvolved administrators will be able to impose sanctions, and only for the reasons that I quoted above. You needn't worry about not being able to discuss changing the current guidelines. RGloucester — ☎ 20:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Background and current situation: Currently the discretionary sanctions (DS) authorised by the Arbitration Committee in the article titles and capitalisation case apply to WT:MOSNUM. Given this comment by an arbitrator on the case's proposed decision talk page the DS likely also apply to article talk pages. If that is the case then the only place they don't apply (depending of course on how broadly you construe) is the changing the characters on articles. From my reading of this thread and of recent discussion regarding it the disruption is being driven by a small number of users and a banned user's socks (which the sanctions will do nothing to stop. My suggestion: (administrative opinion to stay uninvoved) Instead of authorising a brand new set of sanctions for this area can I suggest instead that we just go with the current discretionary sanctions and if editors side step them and only edit war over the characters in articles then they can be brought here individually for topic bans. As far as I can no one has alerted the people involved to ArbCom DS (now mostly done) or made a report to AE so the DS haven't had a chance to work. If I'm reading something incorrectly or you don't agree please feel free to reply so we can discuss. Cheers, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Relating those sanctions to this matter seems like a bit of a stretch (one arbitrator's vague words seem like a spurious link), and does not do anything about article-space edits. I see no reason why a new set of sanctions cannot be established for this matter, specifically meant for this purpose, as opposed to weaselling around with old Arb Com sanctions. As far as "a small number of users", there are recurrent editors that cause disruption, but it is certainly not limited to them. Whilst I do agree that what you said could be done, bringing editors here for topic bans, and so on, this mechanism is slow and bureaucratic, often does not work until the disruption has not gone on for ages, and really does not give the appropriate tools to administrators in this area. This is not an area where edit warring or disruption is ever appropriate. There are very few good reasons to ever edit war over units of measurement, perhaps even fewer than in other content areas. Given the history here, I believe that implementing some kind of sanction specifically for this purpose cannot hurt the situation, it can only help it. RGloucester — ☎ 13:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The diff provided is a former arbitrator replying to a current arbitrator's comment that someone would "wikilawyer" DS to articles. I agree that having overlapping DS and GS in the same content area -- arguing MOSNUM and UK units in the same discussion -- would lead to unnecessary ambiguity. Given the community consensus that's forming, an explicit AC:RFAR request to extend DS to UK units seems reasonable. I lack the wikitime at this moment to fill out all the pixelwork. NE Ent 15:02, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I would be fine with such an amendment, but I'm not familiar enough with the hidden gears and cogs of Misplaced Pages to attempt to do anything of that sort. RGloucester — ☎ 16:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't quite see that overlap would be a problem and if we have sufficient consensus here, should we bother an overloaded Arbcom? After all, we're used enough to telling editors that they're in breach of multiple policies. Can't the community simply impose general sanctions identical to standard discretionary standards with the addition of 1RR on all conflict between editors regarding units of measurement in UK-related articles, wherever across en.wp such conflict takes place? That should suffice for warnings and actions alike. NebY (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

That's my thinking, NebY. ArbCom seems to make everything more complicated than it otherwise needs to be. Perhaps it is because I'm British, and in Britain courts (yes, I know ArbCom is not a court) do not have powers of legislative interpretation. I honestly believe this is a matter better suited for a new set of general sanctions. However, if those administrators who are frequently involved in general sanctions matters, such as Callanecc, believe that an amendment is better suited, I'd be happy to take that approach in the interest of compromise. RGloucester — ☎ 20:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support the principle of general sanctions in this area. What we have at WP:UNITS is basically a decent compromise. Not perfect, but probably the best we're going to get given the levels of distrust on talk.

I would note that when the current rule has been taken to forums for UK-related articles outside MOSNUM it has generally been pretty well-supported. It's quite unusual for this to get brought up at WT:MOSNUM by non-regulars: I had a look and I found only one discussion on this topic on MOSNUM in the last year at that was not either started by a UK-Units regular (including DeFacto socks) or immediately prompted by the actions of a UK-Units regular. And POV pushers on both sides have come unstuck when they've appealed to what they thought was a silent majority consensus for their preferred system - only to find that in fact, editors were happy with the status quo.

I would in particular broadly endorse the points that User:NebY has made. But I would note that a major part of the problem has been outside MOSNUM, with people mass-converting whole topics from one system to the other, particularly when going against MOSNUM advice, and in favour of their own POV. These editors have generally not been sanctioned in the past, and they should have been. We can get too hung up on DeFacto - he's not the only one by any means. There are plenty on the metric side as well - the main difference is that they aren't blocked or banned. Kahastok talk 18:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I did forget to say that the problem and the fertile ground for conflict extends well beyond MOSNUM, and I didn't want to imply just one person or just one side needed to exercise or suffer more restraint. NebY (talk) 19:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support no-one says it's logical, but it's real. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support - long overdue. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support based on evidence presented here. NE Ent 10:23, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support per all the above, this is sorely needed. WaggersTALK 10:45, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed wording/remedies

As a broad consensus seems to be developing in favour of my initiative, I'd like to propose a wording for these sanctions.

In articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, any editor who systematically changes values from metric units to imperial units or vice-versa without justification, or who edit-wars over such a change, may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator if, after being notified of the existence of the British units general sanctions, they repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or normal editorial processes. Sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviours, or any other measures that the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, an editor must be given a notification with a link to the decision that implemented these sanctions, and should be counselled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines. After being notified of these sanctions, the editor will be subject to a one revert per twenty-four hours restriction when changing values between different systems of measurements in articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom. Notifications must be logged at the general sanctions page to be effective. Sanctions may be appealed at the administrators' noticeboard.

Does this seem appropriate? RGloucester — ☎ 16:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Can we add that any reference to suggestions that we base unit order on the source used ie source based units is disruptive? Its just as bad from a disruption POV as the edit warring and unit changes. WCM_email 17:19, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The point of general sanctions is not to stifle discussion, but to discourage disruptive editing and behaviour. Such an addition would be completely inappropriate. If an uninvolved administrator believes that someone is editing disruptively, then they can be sanctioned. RGloucester — ☎ 17:29, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You mention the UK: what about the ROI, as well as ambiguous situations such as Man, the Channel Islands, and the various remaining colonies such as Anguilla, BIOT, or Tristan da Cunha? I'm not pressing for such sanctions or attempting to opposing them: I simply wonder how you'd accounted for them, whether "we should include them", "we should not include them", or "the precise boundaries ought to be left to the enforcing administrator". Nyttend (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no ambiguity in Ireland. It is completely metric, at this point. As far as I'm aware, there has never been a dispute over units at articles relating to the places you mention, and hence I do not think it is necessary to specifically include them in the scope. They are such minor cases that I doubt it will ever be a concern. RGloucester — ☎ 19:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

In other words, the scope should mirror the MOSNUM guidelines, which specify "the United Kingdom". RGloucester — ☎ 19:27, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Ahem. Kahastok talk 19:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Given that the Falkland Islands are a British Overseas Territory, it is quite obvious that that article has "strong ties" to the UK. RGloucester — ☎ 19:55, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I agree entirely. I only brought it up because there seemed to be some question and there was a suggestion that it hadn't come up - after all, the FI have the same status as Anguilla, the BIOT, St. Helena/Ascension/Tristan da Cunha et al. Kahastok talk 20:02, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

What I meant was that I don't think there is a need to specify that these sanctions apply to the "British Indian Ocean Territory", or whatever. That seems like overkill. RGloucester — ☎ 20:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

It's late and I'm still buzzing from an extraordinary poetry reading (capacity crowd on its feet), but I can still see how to drive several coaches and horses through and around that phrasing, and I'm sure more alert and less buzzing minds will thoroughly enjoy thinking of more. Maybe patch in "or who edit-wars over such a change, or otherwise engages in disruptive behaviour regarding units of measurement in such articles, may be sanctioned..." Or just look at how DS like WP:ARBPIA are phrased and talk of editors editing in the area of units of measurement in UK-related articles. NebY (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Fewer word proposal:

In articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, any editor who systematically changes values from metric units to imperial units or vice-versa without clear justification, who edit-wars over such a change, or who otherwise disruptively edits may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator if, after being notified of the existence of the British units general sanctions, they repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or normal editorial processes. Sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviours, or any other measures that the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Notifications must be logged at the general sanctions page to be effective. Sanctions may be appealed at the administrators' noticeboard.

Less is more NE Ent 23:05, 10 October 2014 (UTC) (edited NE Ent 23:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC))

I'm of the opinion that it is important that procedure be clear, and I think that your version leaves out a good deal of the procedure. I based my proposal off the British Isles sanctions and the Syrian Civil War sanctions. I believe it is important that we make note that sanctions require notifications and must be logged. I'm also not sure why the 1RR was left out. RGloucester — ☎ 23:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the logging, I missed that on the copy paste and have updated. The proposal says after being notified of the existence of the British units general sanctions, I believe that is sufficient. Additionally, as a too long veteran of the dispute resolution boards, the more language present the more violating editors will seize as an argument for why they were done wrong: But I wasn't adequately counseled! I think it best to keep it short and sweet. NE Ent 23:59, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I can support the version you've just edited, though it needs a bit of copyediting. RGloucester — ☎ 00:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm concerned that this version will be gamed to push source-based units over the top of MOSNUM rules because of the reference to "clear sourcing".

Source-based units - that is, a system whereby you use the same units as primary as the specific source used to justify the information (regardless of any other consideration) - has long been used by POV pushers as an excuse to impose their personal preference in this area (because they choose the sources that use the units they prefer). MOSNUM has never preferred source-based units - in fact source-based units have been repeatedly rejected (for the same reasons as would apply to source-based spellings) at WT:MOSNUM when they have been advocated by those same POV pushers - but it has in the past contained wordings that those editors claimed allowed them to override the rest of the guideline in favour of source-based units. The justification claimed for the mass-conversion of articles described here was source-based units.

We should be very careful to avoid wordings that might be similarly exploited. Kahastok talk 08:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I support the wording as proposed. If MOSNUM recommends one thing and a source gives another unit as primary, this could be an issue that needs to be looked at. Automatically labelling discussion about this as disruptive behaviour sounds quite problematic. After all, between the Metric fanatics, the Imperial fanatics and the MOSNUM AS IT IS! fanatics, we need to tread a very fine line. Michael Glass (talk) 13:16, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I would support the wording if the words I have struck through are removed. I know I speak from bitter experience but we've editors like Michael Glass have been pushing the idea of source-based units for years ad nauseum. This is one of those disruptive ideas that won't go away and its an excuse to edit counter to MOS. As noted above, a source is selected simply to impose personal preference and the wording proposed left room for further disruptive behaviour. WCM_email 13:30, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) In light of this comment, and having considered the point about outing raised here and concluded that so long as the evidence is on-wiki there is no problem. I'm not going to pussy-foot about this any more. The editor who went through well over a thousand of articles in a particular topic - sportspeople - converting them from one unit to another directly against MOSNUM guidance, claiming that that guidance was overridden by his preference for source-based units (used as a proxy for metric units because of his choice of sources) is Michael Glass. And it's not the only UK-related topic he has mass-metricated, directly against the advice of MOSNUM with no particular justification, claiming source-based units.

Now that was 2011-12, so it's certainly stale now - but it does nicely illustrate why I and others have particular reservations about Michael's motivations here and why I and others see Michael's constant calls for source-based units on MOSNUM talk (most recently this morning) as problematic. Frankly, he's one of the worst offenders we have here. Kahastok talk 13:39, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Adding to this post-edit-conflict. I would endorse Curry Monster's point here. Kahastok talk 13:39, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You fellows are getting something wrong here, as did PBS below. The point of these sanctions is NOT to enforce the compliance of articles with MOSNUM. It is to stop disruptive systematic editing. Someone systematically "enforcing" MOSNUM could be just as disruptive as someone doing otherwise. Changes of units of measurement in British articles should be done through talk page discussion, and these sanctions are meant to facilitate that. They are supposed to stop disruptive editing, stop edit-warring, and so forth. The fact that you fellows are attacking the motives of Michael Glass here is entirely inappropriate. This is not a place for that. This is only meant for the discussion of the potential sanctions. Please take your off-topic comments about MOSNUM and Michael Glass elsewhere. RGloucester — ☎ 15:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, I've removed "sourcing", and left "clear justification", as I believe that makes it clear enough without delving into over specification. RGloucester — ☎ 15:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The wording including the reference to sources it appears to me leaves us open to the argument that this does not count as systematic mass-conversion of articles because it's based on sources (because it applies source-based units). Michael appears to endorse this idea. The wording of sanctions should clearly not undermine the MOS, and there is strong potential for this to do so. Kahastok talk 15:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

It does not "undermine" the MOS, nor does it "support" the MOS. It has nothing to do with the MOS. It has to do with disruptive editing. Regardless, it no longer says anything about "sourcing". RGloucester — ☎ 15:59, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that this dispute has poured over onto this page is proof of why we need these sanctions, regardless. RGloucester — ☎ 16:02, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• Okay, let's try a new proposal meant to address concerns below:

In articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, any editor who systematically changes values from metric units to imperial units or vice-versa without clear justification, who edit-wars over such a change, who disrupts talk page discussions or normal Misplaced Pages processes pertaining to British units, or who otherwise disruptively edits may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator. Sanctions can be imposed if, after being notified of the existence of the British units general sanctions, the editor repeatedly repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or normal editorial processes. Sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviours, or any other measures that the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Notifications must be logged at the general sanctions page to be effective. Sanctions may be appealed at the administrators' noticeboard.

I've tried to revise this to make it more clear. RGloucester — ☎ 21:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Does this address the appropriate concerns? RGloucester — ☎ 16:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the "five pillars" bit is worth having. Is there precedent for such language? I'm afraid this whole thing might wind up being a civility slugfest.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:33, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I have a number of problems with the proposed text:

1. It introduces an "offence" ("systematically chang values from metric units to imperial units or vice-versa") that does not have a sufficient basis in policy. It is disruptive if it is followed by edit-warring, which is clearly covered by policy.
2. If the text about systematic changes were to remain, it should not be listed first, since the main problems are uncollaborative editing on the talk pages and edit-warring. A quick look at WT:MOSNUM, even just the relatively minor example of the current (lengthy) discussion on Misplaced Pages's primary use of imperial units for milk in bottles (as opposed to milk in general or milk in other containers!), should indicate where the problems lie.
3. I think blocks of one year without reference to the (administrator) community (e.g. via a noticeboard) are excessive. I think a maximum ban of three months (which can be repeated if the behaviour continues) should be sufficient. Normal blocks still apply, of course, so I don't see a special need for longer blocks or bans using this mechanism.
4. I also don't see a special need to refer to the five pillars.

So how about the following suggestion:

For articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, any editor who disrupts talk page discussions pertaining to British units, edit-wars over the order of metric and imperial units, or who otherwise engages in disruptive editing, may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator. Sanctions can be imposed if, after being notified of the existence of the British units general sanctions, the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to expected standards of behaviour, in particular those related to consensus-building and edit-warring.

--Boson (talk) 22:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, the five pillars are always referenced in general sanctions. Traditionally, this is done by piping "the purpose of Misplaced Pages" to the five pillars page. However, I personally find the piping a bit bizarre, and so removed it in favour of an explicit mention. The policies that are listed at the "five pillars" page are essential to Misplaced Pages, and are in fact policies. They are meant to be adhered to, here as anywhere. All general sanctions include a mention of these. "Blocks of up to one year" are par for the course in general sanctions. I'm merely using the standard measures that general sanctions follow, and I see no reason to make these sanctions different from other sanctions, as I said above. Systematically changing of units without discussing such changes and without clear justification is an example of disruptive editing. It has noting to do with an "offence". This is the essential problem with British units, and as such, modelled after the British Isles sanctions, should be primary. Talk page disruption is a problem, but it is inherently secondary in terms of how problematic it is to mass edits in the mainspace. Therefore, I strongly oppose placing talk page matters first. Disruption in the mainspace is always more disruptive than disruptive on the talk page, given that such mainspace disruption can compromise the encyclopaedia and its readers. Please follow the standard "general sanctions" format". They are called "general" for a reason, and there is no need to make many exceptions for this particular example of them. They are meant to be simple, and they are meant to be general. RGloucester — ☎ 22:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I would prefer the piped version if that is what is done traditionally. Could you point me to the format for general sanctions that you are referring to. You refer to the British Isles sanctions and link to general sanctions, but you are apparently not referring to the text I find there:

"Any editor who systematically adds or removes the term "British Isles" from multiple articles without clear sourcing and justification, or who edit-wars over such addition or removal, may be added to the list of topic-banned editors. For the purpose of adding users to the list and enforcing restrictions under this provision, an administrator should be uninvolved. An administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions (note: enforcing this provision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute). Sanctions imposed under this provision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee. Administrators are not to reverse such sanctions without either (1) approval by the imposing administrator, or without (2) community consensus or Committee approval to do so. All sanctions imposed are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/British Isles Probation Log."

--Boson (talk) 00:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@Boson: See the following, from the general sanctions page:

In areas of conflict the Arbitration Committee occasionally authorizes administrators to impose sanctions on editors working on pages if after a warning they repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Administrators may impose a broad range of sanctions including blocks of up to one year, article or topic bans and revert restrictions. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions for more information, areas subject to discretionary sanctions can be found here. The community may authorize sanctions which echo those imposed by the Arbitration Committee, with the exception of appeal and logging procedures.

This is the basis for all general sanctions. I originally got the idea for these general sanctions from working on clarifying the Syrian Civil War general sanctions in a recent AN discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 01:06, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

If I understand that correctly, the formulation is used as a general explanantion or rationale for sanctions at WP:General sanctions, rather than in any particular sanctions text, except in the Syrian issue, which you worked on. By the way, your ping did not reach me, although I have all notifications switched on. Is this a known bug related to your signature or something? --Boson (talk) 09:49, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't accept your argument that "mainspace disruption can compromise the encyclopaedia and its readers" in this particular case – when we are talking about whether to write

• 270 metres (900 ft) or
• 900 feet (270 m).

It just makes it seem more dramatic than it is. --Boson (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It is disruption, nonetheless. Our as an encyclopaedia integrity is at stake, and this particular behaviour is always disruptive and almost never productive. Consensus is critical in this area. That particular text is part of all the sanctions, as it is the basis for general sanctions. When anything says that "general sanctions" may be imposed, it means that these are the "general sanctions" that can be imposed. RGloucester — ☎ 13:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

FWIW I would strongly oppose Boson's wording because it entirely skips out the nub of the problem. If we could be sure that the mass-conversion of articles would cease, talk page discussion would be easier. RGloucester is right that that such mass-conversion is almost always disruptive. Note WP:FAITACCOMPLI, which points out an Arbcom ruling describing just this kind of behaviour: this precisely describes what some editors have attempted in this area. Kahastok talk 17:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Support/Opposition

Strongly Oppose This is instruction creep of the worst sort. It is based on turing the words of a guideline into enforceable policy. Any such enforcement such as this should be based on polices not guidelines "Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts." (Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines)

The devil is in the detail. Why just Britain?

Scope: What does United Kingdom mean does it include does it include the Isle of Man the Channel Islands etc? Is the Channel tunnel French or British. Does this apply to the height of someone who holds both British and Irish identity. Does it apply to someone a Republican born in Northern Ireland who does not recognise the British State and travels southern Irish Passport? What about the speed of a tanker ship does it only apply to British resisted ships or British owned ships as well? Does an article such as the Bombing of Dresden in World War II, What about the Battle of Waterloo does it come under this? What about the American War of Independence (fought before the UK came into existence) and the War of 1812 (after the UK came into existence)? What about the Duke of Wellington who was Anglo-Irish, what about Michael Collins born in the United Kingdom died in an Irish Free State? What about William Joyce executed as a British traitor? What about Henry VIII (born before the UK state existed)? What about articles on Australia prior to Dominion status? What about British India which was a member of the League of Nations? What about the Boer War? What about biographies of British Army soldiers born in the Dominions? The article Tram uses British spelling so is it closely linked to the UK? There are two different articles on railways vans, Clearly boxcar is not British but what about covered goods wagon? The point about British Isles is it is narrow in scope and easy to understand. This is broad in scope and open to lots of misunderstandings and also creep.

"These general sanctions would enact WP:1RR for edits that switch units between imperial and metric in UK-related articles" So what happens to the rest of the edit that involves more than "switch units between imperial and metric" is all the text in the edit involved under 1RR or just the bits in {{convert}} template? Weight in tonnes is about the same as weigh in long tons. In the case of RAF bomber raids were the weight is given as 10 tons and has been copied into a Wikiepida article as 10 tons, if someone changes that to 10 tonnes is that subject to this as clearly 10 tons is ambiguous (could be read as 10 short tons)?

Should the pull-weight of English Longbows be given in lbs, kilos or newtons, are newtons part of this? Is switching between kilos and newtons a breach of this 1RR? If not, then is switching between lbs and newtons a sanctioning act, if so then what is the point of the sanction?

If there is a mix in the article where some place imperial first and the other place metric first is homogenising them all one way a breach of this sanction?

If a horse is measured in hands, does that have to be shown in any other imperial system? Would including hands and having them deleted come under this rule?

Height of humans should it be measured in centimetres or metres does conventing from one to the other breach these sanctions, if not then what is the point of the sanctions as that can be just as divisive as between feet and inches and metres?

The MOS is a guideline not a policy. Before any such proposals as those suggested above (which are based on a guideline), implemented there needs to be a widely advertised RfC, with dozens of people involved (not the less than 1 score who have discussed it here). So an RfC should widely advertised include advertising it on the talk pages of any and all WikiProjects which edit "British" articles. It needs to be put forwards with clear initial wording so that people who are not familiar with British weights and measures are clear on what is being proposed.

-- PBS (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you've misconstructed the purpose of these sanctions. In no way does this intend to make "MOSNUM an enforceable policy". Many articles don't even comply with MOSNUM. Even on one of those articles, if someone goes around switching units (perhaps to "comply" with MOSNUM), gets reverted, and then keeps switching units, that would be an instance where these sanctions would apply. There do not apply to normal editors making changes, and discussing and attaining consensus for unit changes on the talk pages of articles, nor do they apply to those who discuss changing the guidelines at MOSNUM. They only apply to those who switch units constantly with no good reason, and edit disruptively as such. Read the "British Isles" sanctions. This is similar to that. It isn't like there would be a ban on switching units, and it does mention "with clear justification". Merely it would force discussion on the talk page, as opposed to having systematic changes of units across articles, like the proposals specify. RGloucester — ☎ 14:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Any such disruption would be equally true for any article so why single out a specific set of articles? -- PBS (talk) 19:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The point of general sanctions is to allow administrators to deal with disruptive editing swiftly in specific areas of conflict. Edit-warring and disputes over units in UK-related articles have caused innumerable problems and inordinate time-wasting. Systematic changing of units in many UK-related articles, as has been done many times by various people, is disruptive. I don't think there has ever been a conflict over American units, Australian units, or whatever. That's because those countries all essentially have one set of units, more or less. In Britain, this is not the case, and that's why we see constant conflict over units. Units in Britain are politically charged in a way that they are not in America, Ireland, or Australia, and that's why they've caused endless conflict here. That's why general sanctions are appropriate. They grant administrators the tools they need to deal with conflict that otherwise isn't being dealt with. The status quo is to let disputes fester for months, leading to all sorts of nonsense like sock-puppetry, disruptive editing, &c. It simply does not work. RGloucester — ☎ 20:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow what you mean for two reasons. First is all pages with measurements need then in imperial and metric, if not then they are either difficult for an American to follow or for an Australian (so at worst all one is talking about is which comes first). Second what does "UK-related articles" mean --See my comments above--ie what is the strict definition that you wish to use for that term? -- PBS (talk) 14:18, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah! You haven't followed the conflict, then. All articles have both metric and imperial measures, or at least they are supposed to. The area of conflict is whether metric or imperial measures should appear first ("primary"). It may sound minor, but it causes 10 tonnes (9+4⁄5 long tons) worth of headaches. That's exactly why it is needed, the same as with the British Isles sanctions, which are most similar to this proposal. It causes inordinate disruption. UK-related articles refers to articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom, the same way "strong ties" works for ENGVAR and date formats. I don't think a strict definition is necessary. If it wasn't necessary for date formats or ENGVAR, I don't see why it would be here. That's up for article talk pages to decide, and in the case of sanctions, for the uninvolved administrator to decide. RGloucester — ☎ 15:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

In British English both day month and month day are used. Your are talking to one of of those who was involved in early over ENGVAR :-) ENGVAR is fine vague definition for a guideline because it is an exception to the rule of it an article started out in one version of English do not change to another, and people in good faith can debate on the talk page if a particular page falls in or outside a particular ENGVAR. If you want to use it for sanctions (where by definition good faith is lacking) then you ought to come up with a precise definition of what you mean. I have given lots of examples above of the problem of scope. So what is your clear definition for enforcement of sanctions? --PBS (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I take your points above about advertising this more widely and agree that would go better with some more preparatory work on the wording. But I don't think that wording should be extremely tight and fear the first proposal placed too much emphasis on disruption within articles by unit-switching. This proposal's here and meeting with such general support because we've seen so much wikilawyering, so much playing merry hell with the details and so much delight in finding new tactics and battlegrounds. Looking at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions#Sanctions placed by the Misplaced Pages community, I'm attracted to the brevity of "Men's Rights / Men's Rights Movements" and "All pages about social groups" and would favour simply "Units of measurement in UK-related articles". If "UK-related articles" seems too broad, we can probably find a tighter phrasing such as "articles primarily concerning UK subjects". I don't think it's necessary to be explicit that this includes talk pages and project pages and the like, any more than it is for MR/MRM and social-groups sanctions. NebY (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with NebY, here. However, I see nothing wrong with "articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom". This is a standard definition used here on Misplaced Pages, and is used for MOSNUM purposes. I don't see how this definition is inappropriate. In articles without strong ties to the UK or US, metric is favoured by MOSNUM, though it says that changes should not be made without discussion. In those cases, any dispute would fall outside these sanctions. This only applies to UK articles, like, for example, Bristol Temple Meads railway station. RGloucester — ☎ 17:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm hesitant about the "strong ties" phrasing only because it might encompass articles which also had strong or stronger ties to other places - I'm not sure quite which, maybe soccer or World War Two or some such. Still, maybe we can make progress by looking at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions#Sanctions placed by the Misplaced Pages community and considering how we'd fill in the columns along similar lines, for example:

• Applicable area: "Units of measurement in articles primarily concerning UK subjects", "Units of measurement in articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom"
• Type: "1RR and discretionary topic bans or blocks"
• Sanctions: "Explicitly including but not restricted to switching units, forum-shopping, tendentious editing and disputation, being boring" - could probably be trimmed further, though it is tempting to paste in Boson's list. NebY (talk) 17:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Reluctantly oppose the suggested wording. It is not balanced because it does not explicitly and adequately address the main problems, which are at discussion venues such as WT:MOSNUM and talk pages – and in fact distracts attention from these problems, which are more to do with:

• the uncooperative approach of a very small number of vociferous editors
• repeated discussions of previous behaviour that verge on personal attacks and focus on individual, named editors rather than addressing their arguments
• an apparent unwillingness to assume good faith on the part of at least one editor
• consensus building being derailed by walls of text and circular discussions
• discussions of alleged conflicts of interest that verge on (purported) outing
• collaborative editors being tempted to leave and effectively grant veto power to more vociferous and persistent editors.

Whatever the intentions or motivations of any of those involved, changing the order in which metric and imperial units are shown (or the addition of metric units to comply with WP:MOSNUM, as in the recent dispute) is objectively nothing like as disruptive as the nature of the discussions at WT:MOSNUM. What we really need is something that enables egregious sockpuppets to be blocked very quickly, and encourages constructive and brief debate of issues aimed at improving the articles and the guidelines.--Boson (talk) 15:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Er, the wording says "who otherwise disruptively edits" and "who does not adhere to the five pillars". This is fairly standard for general sanctions. It doesn't specify every particular behaviour, merely "disruption". If an uninvolved administrator believes that something is extremely disruptive, he can sanction that editor. RGloucester — ☎ 17:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is the enumeration

1. any editor who systematically changes values from metric units to imperial units or vice-versa without clear justification,
2. who edit-wars over such a change,
3. or who otherwise disruptively edits.

The main problems with UK units are more to do with the disruption of the consensus-building process on the talk pages, but the "otherwise" is intuitively understood to mean "disruption of a similar nature", which would probably suggest edits to articles similar to edit-warring. This would target editors "guilty" of one type of potentially disruptive editing and give ammunition to other editors who are actually causing the problem. Similar problems come up in law; I'm not sure if it's covered by the principle inclusio unius est exclusio alteriu. So if we are to have an enumeration, we should probably include both types of disruption, specifically referring first to talk page disruption, and something like the Ninth Amendment ("the enumeration of certain types of disruption shall not exclude any other types of disruption"). --Boson (talk) 19:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't accept that the described issues are the key problems on talk. If those issues exist at all, they arise primarily through exasperation when the same editors make the same arguments for the same changes over and over again, which certainly does happen. In some cases they've been making the same case for years on end, it's been rejected at every turn, and the reasons provided for rejecting the case have been ignored the next time. Editors should not be expected to counter the same argument the 50th time an editor has raised it in the same way as they countered it the first time; to expect them to is to expect an inhuman degree of patience.

I would also note that the difficult nature of talk page argument is to a major degree driven by the backdrop of experience of disruption caused by mass-conversion of articles - particularly when this arises through Wikilawyering the guideline. It is much harder to get consensus when there is no trust, and that backdrop means that there is very little trust. It is this that, ultimately, is a major cause of the problems on talk. If we could be sure that such mass-conversion would no longer take place, I believe that would make discussion at MOSNUM talk easier. Not necessarily always easy - you have people who demand 100% metric and people who demand 100% imperial and it's going to be hard to reconcile them regardless - but easier. Kahastok talk 19:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

We should remember what started the current flair-up: the discussion WT:MOSNUM#Which units should be primary for the height of a UK statue of a UK politician? started by an egregious sockmaster after this edit] changed the non-compliant "a nine-foot bronze statue" to " a 2.7-metre (9 ft) bronze statue" to make it comply with WP:MOSNUM, which requires that metric units also be specified. --Boson (talk) 20:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been pointing this out. If we could get to a stage where people did not use DeFacto socks as an excuse to escalate this, but rather did what we really should be doing - closing the discussions started by DeFacto socks and letting sleeping dogs lie - then this would also reduce the problems at talk. There are ways in which we reduce the arguments here, but they require everyone's cooperation and we don't have it. Kahastok talk 20:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem at WT:MOSNUM is not that some people want all metric and others want all imperial. Excluding the contribution of the DeFacto sockpuppets, the disputed issues (as I understand them) are relatively minor:

• whether to refer editors to "The Times" style guide
• what to do about sports where metric measurements are often used by the relevant associations (and The Times style guide says that metric measurements are preferred for sports) but the text of WP:MOSNUM (excluding the reference to The Times style guide) prescribes imperial measurements
• what to do about milk, beer, and cider (where the guideline (arguably?) deviates from legislation and usage).

The problem is that the situation is repeatedly misrepresented and disrupted in the way described above.--Boson (talk) 20:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If that's how you've understood the issues here, then I believe you've misunderstood them in general. We do have editors who argue 100% metrication and we have editors who argue 100% imperial. Not all of them are asking for it all at once, but it's clear that that's the desired final result. A major argument in the present dispute, for example, is that change would make the guideline more metric and that that would be desirable in and of itself - which misses the point entirely (as Misplaced Pages is not allowed to express such a POV).

But as I say, one of the major issues is the history of some editors Wikilawyering the rules to push their preferred system. If we could be sure that this will stop, then I believe that this would assist in resolving things by generating trust. I know I would be far more willing to trust that people are not going to systematically abuse the MOS if I was confident they would be sanctioned for doing so. Kahastok talk 20:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Re your last point, that's why I used "including but not restricted to" phrasing above. NebY (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

That goes a long way to alleviating my concerns and is a good basis for further discussion, but the wording probably still needs a bit of tweaking. --Boson (talk) 20:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Certainly. Do you want to suggest tweaks, or talk about what's missing or off so that we can find a brief phrase for it? NebY (talk) 06:25, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't think we can leave in the bit about "being boring", though it is tempting. Perhaps an explicit reference to talk pages and some links to relevant guidelines that include WP:IDHT] etc. would be sufficient. --Boson (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm quite prepared to sacrifice "being boring" - it was more of a placeholder. I had hoped "disputation" covered talk pages and edit comments - maybe that can be made clearer by extending the examples of behaviours as you suggest, as in this draft: "Explicitly including but not restricted to systematically switching units of measurement without consensus and forum-shopping, disruptive, tendentious and time-wasting editing and disputation concerning units of measurement". Mmm - that's verging on too lengthy. Thoughts, anyone? NebY (talk) 18:17, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

@NebY and @RGloucester What does "primarily concerning UK subjects" mean? What precise is the definition of UK/United Kingdom that you are using? -- PBS (talk) 14:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a "precise definition" is necessary. This strike me as splitting hairs. Like I said, I would use the exact same "definition" used by MOSNUM, that is, articles with strong ties to the United Kingdom. RGloucester — ☎ 15:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm puzzled too at the implication that we would need a detailed definition of the United Kingdom. WP:MOSNUM#Choice of units itself has "In non-scientific articles relating to the United States... In non-scientific articles relating to the United Kingdom... UK engineering-related articles...". Looking for similar scope issues, I find WP:ENGVAR#Strong national ties to a topic has "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation". Sanctions are no more precise than those policies, which wouldn't surprise anyone who's seen bounds tested: "related to Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related ethnic conflicts, broadly interpreted", "Articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted", "Explicitly including caste associations and political parties related to India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal." and more. There isn't a great deal to choose between RGloucester's phrasing and mine; mine is intentionally slightly more restrictive.

I saw your list of possible grey areas above. They are always with us. Editors have been applying their interpretations of WP:MOSNUM#Units in many surprising ways and arguing fiercely about many possible interpretations. Conflict over use of imperial or metric units has extended to articles very similar to the ones you mention, maybe even to some of those very articles - I haven't checked. Those conflicts can be bitter and fierce, long and draining. We're proposing to damp down those conflicts through sanctions and, I'm glad to say, we actually have strong general consensus among the combatants for this effort - if we can find a suitably balanced phrasing. NebY (talk) 17:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Would anyone care to propose a new wording that incorporates the concerns of other editors here? RGloucester — ☎ 18:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

@NebY and @RGloucester When did the UK you want to use in this these sanctions come into existence? -- PBS (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

???? This is not necessary. Any article with strong ties to the United Kingdom. That means that it includes articles like The Protectorate, as that event is historically tied to what is now the UK. It really doesn't matter when the "UK came into existence". As it says at the MOS for ENGVAR, the Great Fire of London is written in British English because it has strong ties to Britain, even though Britain did not exist in the modern sense at the time of the fire. We don't write that article in Early Modern English, but British English. RGloucester — ☎ 23:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I've made another proposal above, if you care to take a look and see if it addresses your concerns. RGloucester — ☎ 04:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

@NebY do you agree with RGloucester's assesment of what UK means ? -- PBS (talk) 20:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

My "assesment of what UK means" is irrelevant. If these sanctions are applied, no-one is going to call me up and ask me what UK means, or consult this discussion for my assessment. NebY (talk) 08:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@NebY so you are supporting a proposal in which you think there is no agreed definition as to scope. Why? -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@PBS:That's not what I said and it doesn't follow from what I said. I've supported the suggestion of sanctions. I haven't supported RGloucester's wording, which I have tried to discuss with them, and I have floated an alternative approach to a formal wording. I now despair. I'm staying away from the latest WT:MOSNUM monster and have only come back here when you've pinged me. NebY (talk) 12:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester I am not sure which proposal you are referring (what is the time stamp on it). If you do not mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland then you should not link to it. Instead you need to define what you mean by the UK. Do the proposed sanctions include articles about the 26 counties of Ireland that were part of the United Kingdom? -- 20:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to play what I presume is a game. It is fairly obvious what it means, and that's why it is used already for the sake of ENGVAR and date formats. "Strong ties" to a particular country, as opposed to others. Ireland is outside the scope of these sanctions, as they are totally metric, and as has been explained above. Sadly, I feel that you fail to realise that the Great Fire of London has strong ties to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" despite the fact that that state did not exist at the time of the fire. That's because the territory where that fire took place is part of the modern United Kingdom, and hence the history of that territory has "strong ties to the United Kingdom" as opposed to other states. The history of southern Ireland does not have strong ties to the modern UK as opposed to other states, as the state that it has the most strong ties to is Ireland. Is that that difficult to understand? My proposal is in the "propose remedies" section. RGloucester — ☎ 20:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester It is incorrect and therefore misleading to say that Ireland is totally metric. It is far from it. It is very similar to the UK, with TV and newspapers using non-metric, and people mostly using non-metric in everyday life. The only difference from the UK is that the Irish government has changed speed limits to kph, but people still have mph speedometers and speak in terms of mph. Ireland should have a section for articles with strong ties to Ireland being required to use the same units as the Irish do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.215.35 (talk) 22:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose in Strongest Possible Terms largely for the reasons enunciated by PBS. Further, what does "strong ties" to the UK mean? What system of units would be used for Capture of USS Chesapeake? DocumentError (talk) 23:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

These sanctions are not about determining what units are used where. That's already determined by the MoS (WP:UNIT). Please actually read the MoS and its section on "strong ties" before commenting. RGloucester — ☎ 12:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester: but you have to "play that game" because you are proposing to put into place sanctions that can have editors banned for a year. For a start you give the example of the "Great Fire of London" but it can be argued that is because London is within the country of England and the country of England is where the English Nation resides (strong national ties to the English). That does not mean that there is a strong national tie between the the state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it depends on whether one sees the state of the (UK) as encompassing four nations or just one -- a very topical political argument. -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The point about WP:ENGVAR is it is an exception to a rule (of no changing spellings etc from the initial spellings), but there has to be a consensus to apply it in any given context. It is from a guideline and "guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts" (WP:POLICY) and if there is an article written in a different dialect of English then consensus has to be obtained before a change takes place. This means that even if in your opinion an article has close ties to Britain, if it is written in another dialect then British English does not apply (EG War of 1812). If the initial author had written that in British English then it would still be in British English. But according to what I understand you are suggesting that even if an article is not written in British English if the subject has strong ties to the United Kingdom then such an article would be subject to the proposed sanctions. -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

You stated above that in you opinion it applies to The Protectorate but it does not apply to the 26 counties. Then what about the Siege of Drogheda? I raised this problem of scope in the Discretionary sanctions discussions of 2013. -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I also strongly object to the idea that there should be a sanctions warning/information page, you will also find those arguments in Discretionary sanctions discussions of 2013. -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment If editors want to bring in sanctions on changing measurement types why not make it universal instead of trying to defined it to a poorly defined subset of articles? -- PBS (talk) 12:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

This is only a problem with British units, that's why. There is no reason to apply sanctions in areas outside the dispute. You are talking about discretionary sanctions, but these are general sanctions. There must be a page to coordinate and log sanctions issued so that administrators can be held accountable. I'm sorry, but I have little tolerance for this odd nonsense about the "nation of England". Can we please have even the smallest semblance of common sense on this page? "Strong ties to the United Kingdom" is an established phrase in Misplaced Pages jargon. There is nothing unclear about it. As I've said, and as it says at the page I piped it to, strong ties means "strong ties to one country as opposed to others", meaning that in areas where multiple countries have strong ties, it does not apply. I do not take kindly to one editor stonewalling what is overall a broad consensus of many editors above. I'm happy to work to create a good wording, but this is just taking it to another level. RGloucester — ☎ 13:09, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

""Strong ties to the United Kingdom" is an established phrase in Misplaced Pages jargon." Where? -- PBS (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@PBS: MOS:TIES and MOS:DATE TIES. RGloucester — ☎ 01:06, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess I don't understand why you care about this in the first place. When I suggested using an internationalized form for the United States you said "In English, American means "AMERICAN". Do you think I cater to the whims of foreigners? Please, go to "the Hispanosphere" Misplaced Pages, where they can indulge you in stupidity." Since the majority of this master Anglophone race are in the USA and they use imperial units why are we catering to the whims of the dirty foreigners? I thought you were against that? DocumentError (talk) 03:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Please take your irrelevant and entirely off-topic vitriol elsewhere. RGloucester — ☎ 03:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm ... okay. DocumentError (talk) 07:11, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Moving forward

It is about time we moved this forward. There is no reason to allow this proposal, like so many others, to flounder. There is broad community consensus that something must be done about the present circumstances, and I intend to get these sanctions up and running. Let me propose another wording, using the basic general sanctions format. This wording should address the concerns of PBS and NebY above.

In articles that have strong ties solely to the United Kingdom, as opposed to other English-speaking countries, any editor who systematically changes values from one system of measurement to another without clear justification, who edit-wars over such a change, who disrupts talk page discussions or normal Misplaced Pages processes pertaining to units in UK-related articles, who engages in forum-shopping, or who otherwise disruptively edits may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator. Sanctions can be imposed if, after being notified of the existence of these sanctions, the editor repeatedly repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or normal editorial processes. Sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviours, or any other measures that the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Notifications must be logged at the general sanctions page to be effective. Sanctions may be appealed at the administrators' noticeboard.

This is my attempt at clarity. Let's not let bureaucracy destroy something that has the potential to abate disruption. RGloucester — ☎ 22:32, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposing community ban on Bigshowandkane64

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bigshowandkane64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been edit warring on several articles pertaining to Disney, wrestling and children's television-related articles since his indef block back in 2013, and has also been adding unsourced information in several BLPs. More recently, he appeared as MickeyMouseTheCoolGuy46 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and has continued the same pattern of edits like the previous accounts (, , ). This editor has shown that, despite being given one last chance after another, he is a net negative to the project. This last round of sock puppetry is the final straw. I would like to propose that we should place an indefinite community ban on this individual.

• Support as nominator. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. VandVictory (talk) 01:44, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. User has no desire to change which can easily be seen in his edit summaries of his most recent sock. AcidSnow (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
• Partial support. I support a ban of Bigshownandkane, but not an indefinite one. It's rather easy to tell that this individual is young and immature, so I propose that we issue a 1-2 year ban to allow him to gain some maturity and give him a chance to become a constructive contributor. However, if he violates the ban, perhaps we could look into extending it to indefinite. --Writing Enthusiast 04:53, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support per WritingEnthusiast. Although after a read of their contributions, I would say a ban of no shorter than 5 years with no recourse to appealing the ban for at least 2 years. However, continued socking from the close of this proposal would receive my support for an indefinite ban. Blackmane (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Someone close this? VandVictory (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be nice if there were a few more editors to comment on this before closing. I understand that this has been open over a week now, but despite the unanimity 5 !votes is hardly a significant size. Blackmane (talk) 03:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I see no evidence that allowing him to edit is beneficial to this project. --Kinu /_c 04:10, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

How to handle the user described on the Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP page

There seems to be a good faith disagreement about how to handle the user described on the Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP page. A recent example of which is 186.37.203.126 who has opened a discussion at User talk:Drmies#Seeking your opnion. The difference of opinion seems to revolve around whether or not the user is banned, and whether the edits should be reverted. I've been asked on my user talk page to intervene recently, and I've taken the view that the user is banned. However, the fact the user has started a discussion on an admin's user talk page is enough to give me pause. Anyway, hopefully we can clear this up, and either agree the user is banned or not. PhilKnight (talk) 10:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It appears to be a case of either a) the guy is banned, or b) he does exactly as he pleases on Misplaced Pages, where no rules applies to him whatsoever. He gets blocked for something, and he immediately comes back using a different IP. He currently has two blocks outstanding, yet is still editing. He freely claims that we "cannot prevent him from editing" . His editing is (mostly) fine, until someone disagrees with him or reverts him, then there's reverting with no discussion and eventually, unacceptable levels of personal abuse. I don't believe Misplaced Pages benefits from his presence, and I only know of one editor who appreciates him, among the large number who find him to be disruptive. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:04, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Bretonbanquet, I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the same unhelpful argument rehashed. Their edits are improvements, pure and simple. If you revert them until abuse starts, then for all I know you're baiting them into using foul language. I'd be pissed too. Reverting these positive edits (there's a laundry list on my talk page, User_talk:Drmies#Seeking_your_opnion) makes no sense and only leads to frustration, admin involvement, LTA, cases, mass rollback--in short, needless drama. What do I care who makes this edit? It's a good edit. And now Zambelo (who's always on the look to get something on me) feels the need to join the fray, with this well-explained edit, in which a 2008 source which doesn't mention the subject is made to announce something in 2012 (go look for "Beta" in that article). Bravo. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, I exist but for that very reason /s. Seriously, you need to stop with the personal attacks. But I'll be sure to bring this up when I bring your conduct to arbitration. Zambelo; talk 02:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, his editing is mostly fine – mostly. Not all of it. And immediately you assume that he is being reverted ad infinitum and goaded into using bad language. I really don't know why you would come to that conclusion. Do you have any proof of it? I have not reverted him on a systematic basis, only where I feel there is a problem with his edit. I do not necessarily advocate reversion of all of his edits. The point is that any reversion of his edits results in an edit war, refusal to discuss and eventual abuse. He effectively bullies others into accepting his edits. I have never been able to question a single edit of his, or even start a discussion, without a major struggle and being called names. And I'm far from being alone. I do not understand why you would support someone who makes a few minor improvements to the project when the trade-off is regular abuse and an open admission to gaming the system. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

He has been blocked repeatedly and feels no need to address the reasons for the blocks: vile personal attacks, edit warring, etc. So long as he is allowed to edit -- for whatever reason -- why would he do anything to conform to community standards? He won't, as his recent actions confirm He then is shocked that anyone would dare to claim he is editing in defiance of a block despite (as noted) repeatedly saying he is -- and will continue to -- evade all attempts to block him. Drmies asks to what end we would enforce a block. In this particular case, to get rid of an abusive editor. In a larger sense, so that we can meaningfully claim to block disruptive editors. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I have not reverted him on a systematic basis, only where I feel there is a problem with his edit.

,,,,,,,,,,,

Why lie? 186.37.203.196 (talk) 15:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Who's lying? Those are the edits I had a problem with. Some of your work I reinstated. Some of my reverts were reverted by other editors who thought your edits were OK, and I left them. Dozens and dozens of your edits I checked, and left as acceptable. Why don't you list those? I've already said that mostly your editing is fine, but it's not your editing that's in question here. You're evading two blocks by posting here. The fact is, you can do whatever you want here and you basically do, by your own admission. The rest of us are not free to challenge you without fear of edit wars and abuse. Right or wrong? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

More lies - no surprise. I guess you do it because you get away with it. That was just a small sample of the many edits that you have reverted on a systematic basis, without regard to the content. If you genuinely had some kind of problem with an edit such as moving a reference to a sensible place, you would a) have been wrong, b) been obliged by the conventions of the encyclopaedia to explain what your problem actually was, and c) not moved the reference again yourself. And why don't I list the edits of mine that you have personally approved? Either you're just trolling, again, or you seriously don't realise that no-one but you can possibly know which edits those might be. Either way, it's more cause for concern about you. 186.37.203.122 (talk) 17:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you engage in a discussion at all without accusing someone of lying and trolling? I restored that part of your edit which I felt was acceptable, yet that's not good enough for you either? As for all the edits of yours that I felt were acceptable, how about all of those from your last two or three IPs that I didn't revert? I checked all of them. You have no need for concern about me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's possible we're getting off topic here. From my perspective, if we conclude the user is banned, then as far as I'm concerned, reverting his edits in accordance with WP:BAN would be permissible. PhilKnight (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I have never been banned. Once you acknowledge that, I'm sure you'll have words with User:SummerPhD about the idiocy of making false claims just for the purpose of destroying substantial amounts of hard work. 186.37.203.122 (talk) 17:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• In my view, the question of whether the person behind the various IP has been banned is moot. The edits in question improved the encyclopedia, and even though mass reversion of such edits might be permissible if s/he has been banned, I believe that even then, it's a textbook example for why WP:IAR exists. Are we here to enforce rules to the detriment of encyclopedic content? Or are we here to improve this encyclopedia? Those are the questions at the crux of this, in my opinion. LHM 17:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

  A note on "best known for": while I don't agree with blind mass reversion of the IP's edits, his crusade against "best known for" seems wrong-headed to me. It's a common phrase, used even in scholarly works. Here is just one example of it being used in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. There are many more such examples. LHM 17:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Banning is an extreme measure. I've looked at the long-term abuse page and at some examples; I've reinstated one edit in the list the IP gives above, and compromised on another. This is a long-running case and I see some mellowing: for one thing, the IP is apparently focusing less narrowly on the particularly contentious issue of whether "best known for" is a legitimate formulation in the lede of an article, or a sloppy piece of OR; for another, they seem to be using fewer of the nasty edit summaries, and I do see them carefully describing their reasoning in the initial edits. On the other hand I'm seeing numerous cases where the first revert gave no specific reason. Maybe my sample is poor; I admit I am utterly unable to judge which particular actors are in fact best known for one or two roles, and inclined to think the IP's right: it's usually more neutral to omit that, and where it isn't, it should be specifically referenced in the article. Because people's careers evolve. I'm getting the feeling this IP's career has evolved a bit too. IP, can we get you to undertake to clean up your mouth, realising that people of all sorts of backgrounds read these edit summaries, and calling someone a moron or even a twat (which like the other word for the female pudenda has differential force in different parts of the world, and neither particularly endears someone to a female editor like me) is just going to get you treated like a hoodlum? More use of article talk pages would also help: it's a place to record your reasoning. Others: shall we have a formal ban discussion, or can anyone find one that has happened? Or can we step back and avoid that in this case - partly by endeavouring to give a reason for the revert, just in case one time it isn't a banned editor? Since the banning offences in this case are apparently the behaviour after the first revert, I believe we may have a way out of that situation if we can keep things on the level of AGF and reasoned disagreement. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• I would suggest two courses of action. First, a series of filters to make this editor go away. Second, systematically remove the phrase "best known for" from every Misplaced Pages article. As disruptive as this guy is, that doesn't forgive this chronic piece of original research. We generally have no idea what someone is "best known for", and I can't envision a source that could make reliable statements about that for us to rely upon.—Kww(talk) 17:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Your first course of action will make our articles worse, so I disagree. I have a solution, but he doesn't want to play along: if he gets an account then, I have no doubt, all this will go away. Drmies (talk) 17:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
    • I think if he got an account then yes, largely it might go away. He would at least then be bound by the same rules as the rest of us, which currently he is not. Why does he not want to register? It would be a demonstration of good faith on his part. If he then actually discussed matters when challenged, in a civil way, then compromises could be reached. With regard to the "best known for" phrasing, I think in some cases he is right to remove it, but in others the subject only passes the notability criteria for one thing, and it's not really a stretch of OR to say that's what they're best known for. Including some small guidance on a subject's most notable achievements seems encyclopedic to me, particularly if reliably sourced (like any other statement). Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
      • You'll note above that in this very discussion, he has accused me of lying and trolling. The fact is that this guy appears incapable of being civil. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• I was asked to comment on my experience but I can't add much beyond what I've put at Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP#Comments from Wee Curry Monster. The guy's edits are mostly constructive and a lot are reverted by named accounts who should know better. Its those occasions where the edit doesn't improve the article, which are most troubling, since he doesn't engage with editors he simply resorts to the same foul mouthed abuse. I don't believe he responds like that out of frustration, I think that is a fig leaf he is hiding behind as it was supplied by editors defending him. The truth is as he admits himself, he enjoys being abusive to other editors. He doesn't fundamentally add to the encyclopaedia, you'll not see him producing content, simply a few quick grammar tweaks. To be blunt about it, if this were a named account who labelled everyone who disagreed with them a dopey C**T, they'd have had a series of escalating blocks leading to a permanent site ban long. As he IP hops he has been able to evade such sanctions. WCM_email 18:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

So far in this discussion, three edits from three IPs in defiance of a supposed block and the following: "Why lie?...More lies - no surprise. I guess you do it because you get away with it....Either you're just trolling, again,...I have never been banned.... the idiocy of making false claims just for the purpose of destroying substantial amounts of hard work." Is this editor blocked? In theory, yes. In practice, no. "Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia where personal attacks are just fine and blocks are meaningless." - SummerPhD (talk) 21:05, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. I've got a blocked editor, known for incivility, calling me a liar and a serial troll on an admin page with no admonishment whatsoever. Something he's done in countless other places to countless editors. And I'm actually starting to feel as if some people think I'm in the wrong here or making this stuff up. It'd be a joke if it were actually funny. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It is said that the editor is banned. Are they? If they're not, calling them "banned" is, well, a kind of untruth, call it what you will. But I don't think anything is going to come out of this. Tempers are going to get more inflamed, even though, WCM, the c-word hasn't fallen in a long time (as far as I know), nor does he say that to "everyone who disagrees with him". In fact, I restored one of their "known for"s since I was able to source that it was accurate. They didn't call me anything. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't know if the guy is banned as it all started way before I encountered him. I haven't used the word "banned"; I use "blocked" because that much is demonstrably true. As for the c-word, I don't consider it much more problematic than being called a liar and a troll, something which doesn't seem to bother you. These are still flagrant personal attacks, right here on an admin page. At the risk of sounding petty, he's hardly likely to call you names as you have supported him in the past. You even called him one of your favourite editors on your talk page. If he were to stop calling people any kind of names, c-word, twat, moron, liar, troll, anything like that – that would be a hell of a start. But if he can call me a liar and a troll here and escape any kind of sanction, then what's to prevent him doing it anywhere else? If he is to be considered some kind of untouchable editor, to whom rules don't apply, then well let's just admit it so we know where we all stand. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:15, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

You even called him one of your favourite editors on your talk page

Yeah, I really, really doubt that was meant seriously.

Sorry, Drmies, it's a bit too simplistic to claim that "Their edits are improvements, pure and simple". While this may be the case in some/most of their edits, it certainly isn't correct to say they are all improvements. To suggest that this edit deals with "copyright infringement" shows a lack of understanding with what "copyright infringement" is. When this was reverted—on a good faith basis—the insults started, and the editor started edit warring against three other editors. The IP initially refused to go to the talk page when requested; when they finally started on the talk page, the editor edit warred there as well, deleting other people's comments (six times in all!), and referring to me as a "fucking retarded little cunt." When this was taken to ANI, the IP edit warred there – again and again and again. To then avoid all the possible censure by jumping to another IP (while leaving a "goodbye message of "rm all the lies of idiots, cunts, retards and wankers" if NOT improving the encyclopaedia in any way, shape or form.

This incident did not start because it was a problematic editor being harassed, or because they had been identified and their edits reverted as part of a WP:BAN action, but because the editor did not understand what they were talking about and did not improve the article. It was their reaction at that point that was the problem. It is pointless to dismiss this problem by blithely claiming that "They're improving articles" so their behaviour can be overlooked. It is not always the case, and even the slightest interaction—even with the poorest of edits—will lead to a ridiculous backlash and foul-mouthed tirade. That isn't helpful, isn't constructive, and doesn't do anything to improve the encyclopaedia. – SchroCat (talk) 22:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to pile on you Drmies but as SchroCat shows he was dropping the C Word recently. Can I just make one quick point though, if he didn't react as he did it would be a lot easier for admins to deal with the named accounts who revert constructive edits by IP editors. That is one aspect of wikipedia I think we can both agree on that does need to be addressed. However, remember that when I came across this guy I did explain myself to him, which has never stopped him falsely claiming I reverted him solely because he was an IP. WCM_email 22:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster, you yourself dropped the c-bomb a couple of times (I suppose--some edit summaries were oversighted), quite recently: August of this year. No one, including me, is calling for you to be banned. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Drmies you know that I did that on purpose to prove a point. This guy has done it hundreds of times and block evades, I did it once and immediately I'm warned, quite rightly, with an escalating series of blocks being the next step. A named account would be blocked but he has got away with it literally for years. BTW did you notice something, I haven't suggested that he is banned either and I also made a positive suggestion why the abusive responses need to stop. WCM_email 22:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I recommend reading the just published Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Banning_Policy/Proposed_decision#Proposed_principles. My understanding is, if the editor is banned any is entitled to revert the edits, but others can -- quoting the committee "rarely and with extreme caution" restore them if they feel it benefits the encyclopedia and take responsibility for the edit. And editors are generally given leeway to manage their talk pages themselves. NE Ent 23:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Bretonbanquet, I called you a liar because you were lying. You claimed that you had never systematically reverted my edits; I posted diffs showing that that was exactly what you had been doing. I called you a troll because you appeared to be trolling; how do you think it looks when you ask me to post diffs of the edits of mine that you had decided you approved of?

As for "including some small guidance on a subject's most notable achievements", I recall that over a long period of time you have refused to understand that "X did Y" does exactly that, bizarrely preferring to edit war to force in a subjective, unverifiable and verbose claim that "X is best known for doing Y".

More falsehoods from "Wee Curry Monster", as has been his habit over the years. The first time I came across him, it was when he blanket reverted an edit I had made to Falklands War, an article on which he was subject to editing restrictions and clearly was trying to claim ownership of. He then stalked my edits to another article that he had shown no previous interest it, and reverted me there with the edit summary "rv IP edits". And now he has the gall to claim "I did explain myself to him", trying to pretend that he had a reason for that revert.

And SchroCat... Ah SchroCat. He of the famous "described in the UK press as being best known for starring". Enough said I think.

Here's the simple truth. I make edits to improve the encyclopaedia. They are utterly uncontroversial, and it's really not hard to see that they improve it, unless you're not very good with the English language. Indeed, back in the early days, no-one would have dreamt of kicking up a fuss about them. Until roughly 2006, I had never had any issue. Then the problem of people reverting without looking at edits began. Until about 2009 it gradually escalated, and people even began reverting with false accusations of vandalism. This began to get extremely offensive and irritating. In around 2009 this behaviour really began to take off, and ever since then I've found that you simply cannot edit with an IP address without being accused of vandalism. And indeed, you will get blocked for complaining about getting accused of vandalism. And then being extremely angry about such a ridiculous block is claimed as justification for the block.

These days it's just an endless Kafka-esque joke. Ever since the creation of the attack page, people have been using it as a reason in and of itself to block me. My efforts to improve the encyclopaedia are met with the likes of BretonBanquet, who runs off to admins requesting that I be blocked any time he sees edits that he suspects I have made. The admins are only too happy to oblige, presumably on the grounds that if an attack page against me exists, I must thoroughly deserve all the attacks.

To cut a long story short, don't revert for no good reason and we can all get along fine. Don't lie about me. And don't ever, ever accuse me of vandalism. That's really all there is to it. If you want an in depth explanation of why "best known for" is almost invariably wrong, that's a discussion for another place. If you really need it explaining to you that copying and pasting instead of writing your own words is not acceptable, even if you tell everyone where you copied and pasted from, again, that's for elsewhere. Don't revert for no good reason and we can all get along fine.

Question: Does the term "vandalism" apply if the edit is acceptable, but the edit summary is not - ie contains abuse, foul language and attacks on other editors? What is the accepted course of action in such a case? That seems to be an important consideration here - while many edits from the IP are acceptable, their tone and language in the edit summaries are a different topic of conversation. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks are unacceptable and lead to a block. Avoiding the block to come back with more personal attacks, though, seems to be up for debate. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

IP, one of the problems I have here is summed up by what you've written. I have not come across a perfect editor on Wiki. ALL of us err at times, and when that is pointed out we react in different ways, but the majority of the time we take it on the chin and at least let the matter drop, if not apologise and put the matter right. You don't. You have a WP:BATTLE mentality on pretty much any disagreement with your edit – good or not. As soon as you are reverted, the red mist rolls in and you revert, edit war, insult and attempt to belittle or bully others. I read your post above and at no point have you expressed any sentiment that suggests you see any problem at all in what you have done. Quite the reverse, in fact: according to what you have written, everyone else is the problem and you are the victim. That's some way from the truth of the matter. You continually dismiss the valid complaints of others (and yes, there are some invalid complaints too) and act like you've never made a poor edit in your life. Although you may have modified your behaviour recently (a moot point) there is still evidence of that disruptive editor just below the surface: that's not helpful or constructive in any way, shape or form. - SchroCat (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• SchroCat, if the IP has cleaned up his act recently, that is a far from moot point. Bretonbanquet, I don't see any good reason for this revert--that "years ago" was simply in the wrong place, and if you disagreed with the "verglas" thing you should have reverted only that part, and at the very least you should have explained. Yngvadottir's sample, of reverts without explanation, is highly representative. Perhaps the IP has a battleground mentality, but they're not the only one. Being reverted without explanation makes me angry too. Someone linked a diff about quotes and plagiarism--well, I disagree with the editor on that point, and one of the diffs in that long list on my talk page was one of those as well, and I didn't reinstate it. But that doesn't take away from the fact that all but a handful of those diffs were improvements. Of course I don't agree with their removal of a talk page post--but that was in March. I didn't see anything like that in recent edits (though I admit I do not look for or follow this editor), and I can't help but think that an invitation to discussion (on Talk:Ian Gow has something to do with it. Being taken seriously has surprising effects on someone's state of mind.

  Explanation is not necessarily justification. They got blocked for edit warring etc. on Wind wave, and for dropping some cusswords. It is not my job to defend every single one of the IP's edits, and I don't agree with all of them; one could say their actions led to the block. But these actions didn't come out of nowhere: it is worthwhile noting that all of that started when three of their productive edits, with laudable edit summaries, were reverted in one fell swoop, with no more justification than "Restore to version before editing by known edit warrior". But this by a user who has a user box saying "This user is against IP editing", so I suppose that makes it alright. Drmies (talk) 14:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies, if you notice, I subsequently restored that exact part of his edit that you describe. He admitted as much in one of his posts above. The "verglas" thing was a typically needless edit, and he made that part of the edit with no reasoning attached. It is extremely rare that I revert good faith edits without an explanation (check my 48,000+ edits), and in this case a) I was under the impression that this guy was already banned and blank reverts were allowed (I now understand that this guy was seemingly not banned, so fair enough), but b) in the past, when I reverted him with a full reason in the edit summary, all I got was a revert back, usually with abuse. I don't think you would find any other editor on Misplaced Pages who would happily call me a liar or a troll. In fact I know you wouldn't. Yet he repeats it every time he posts. I have disagreements sometimes, but who doesn't? Incidentally, I've never accused him of vandalism, if anyone's wondering. He's very uncivil and thoroughly disruptive, but he's not a vandal. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• It was the revert that was needless. Can you give me one good reason why the content of their edit warranted an unexplained revert? Is there any good reason to have a reference between "275,000" and "years ago"? Without such a reason, without an edit summary, with nothing but the apparently automated m, why would they assume any kind of good faith? At least Summer took the time to give an edit summary--I disagree with it, but it's something. I'm not calling you anything, I'm sure lots of others wouldn't call you anything. But anyone who gets reverted like this, apparently on sight, with no consideration at all for the content of the edit--what are they supposed to do, say "yes I'm just an IP who knows nothing" and move on? This has been going on for years. The frustration is theirs, not yours. Being called a troll or a liar is not nothing, but listed on my talk page are 44 edits which were all reverted, most of which were clear improvements, some of which we can discuss, but none of them were vandalism or personal attacks or whatever. Drmies (talk) 20:18, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies, I reverted both edits in one go, which I shouldn't have done, I accept that. I should have undone the verglas edit and left the other one rather than revert both and restore one. But you're assuming that's how I've always treated this IP – not true. I've spent a lot of time in the past on talk pages trying to talk to this guy, and I've made a number of compromise edits instead of reverting him, like this recent example. My revert, with reasoning: , and then I made a compromise on my own initiative . Any multiple reverting with no edit summary that you're seeing in the past week is the result of a long, drawn-out process, not the beginning or even the middle. I always treated this guy's edits with respect, despite the abuse, until I lost my patience with him. In no way whatsoever have I always treated this guy in an offhand way, and I resent the implication that I did. Yet I always received the same grief I am currently still receiving from him. The frustration is also mine, however much he may be frustrated too. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• The liars just can't stop lying, can they?

• he made that part of the edit with no reasoning attached
• that part of the edit, with reasoning clearly stated in the edit summary 186.37.203.227 (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Stricken. My mistake. A mistake, you understand, not a lie. How many times do you plan to call me a liar on this page? Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You just accidentally said something that wasn't true in a way that appeared to be intended to discredit me? Sure. As for how many times I plan to call you a liar, well, just as many times as I see you saying blatantly untrue things about me. I'm not going to leave them uncorrected, am I? I find your insinuations regarding our edits to Thin Lizzy verging on dishonest as well. You said My revert, with reasoning: , but there was no reasoning at all there. rv to long-standing wording, please establish a consensus on the talk page if you want to change it does not explain anything, does it?. And then you "always received the same grief", you claim. But what happened after you made your edit? Tell it how you see it, please. 186.37.203.227 (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if there is anything I could possibly do that you wouldn't consider dishonest in some warped way. There were no "insinuations" in my above post. You say there was no reasoning on my revert at Thin Lizzy, I say that was my reasoning. That was the long standing wording (not my wording) that nobody else had ever had a problem with, except you. My revert, my reasoning. Whether you liked it or not, that was the reasoning. I have noted that of all the times I asked you in an edit summary to use the talk page, you almost never did, preferring to edit war. I think that explains quite a lot, contrary to your claim. Yes, I always received the same grief. Generally, obviously, not there after I made the second edit to Thin Lizzy. I mean being called a liar, troll, stupid, and whatever else you called me over the years, in edit summaries, on talk pages. I am unable to tell it how I see it because I'd contravene civility guidelines, and that's something you've never been able to say. But this conversation is pointless here anyway. You have never had, and show no signs of ever having, any intention to collaborate civilly. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

An edit I made in reply to the IP in November 2013, that explains why I reverted a few of many edits by this IP editor two years earlier in November 2011. Fast forward three years later and he is still falsely alleging I reverted him solely because he was an IP editor by taking one diff out of context. This demonstrates his love of confrontration for its own sake and his WP:BATTLE mentality with anyone who gets in his way. WCM_email 14:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Your edit summary "rv IP edits" was, unfortunately for you, entirely unambiguous. 186.37.203.227 (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, I used the word "may" deliberately here – I have not followed their edits and have no wish to: I prefer to create content rather than haunt the dramah boards or go looking for trouble. Reading through the threads I see the IP has accused others of lying and trolling, so my AGF in saying "may" could be misplaced. I also suspect that the red mist isn't far below the surface, and the next set of reverts—even justifiable ones—will be greeted with the same toxic response as the others. I'm stepping away from this now: I have no axe to grind and hate spending time on the boards, but if the IP manages to wriggle out of the situation and is equally disruptive in the future, I hope there's a big pile of bricks to drop on him somewhere. - SchroCat (talk) 17:19, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to ban the user described on the Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP page

It is proposed that we ban the user described on the Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP page due to long term disruption.

• Support site ban - I appreciate other approaches could be considered - requiring him to get an account, and not make logged out edits, but he seems unwilling to go along with this. Consequently, banning him, although perhaps somewhat harsh, is the simplest solution. PhilKnight (talk) 18:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Seriously unbelievable. Never did I think that anyone would take the bizarre crusade against article quality to such a level. 186.37.203.53 (talk) 19:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban – I can and have worked with many troublesome editors on here, and many IPs, some of which were ultimately blocked indefinitely by admins, but I always found common ground and a way to compromise. Always. Except this guy. It's always been his way or the highway, and that can never work on Misplaced Pages. The whole 'all my edits are wonderful improvements, so any disagreement with that is harassment from idiots' vibe, as displayed above. If he refuses to show good faith and register, or work co-operatively with others, I see no other alternative. It's simply unworkable to have an editor who refuses to abide by the rules that the rest of us must follow. His decent edits can still be kept, as no doubt he will continue to edit regardless of what happens here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • If you want to keep the guy's decent edits, don't revert them. Simple. "His way or the highway" is belied by the RfC on Talk:Ian Gow and the fact that he has abided by the community consensus there, which didn't go his way. Drmies (talk) 20:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
    • See, that's a big part of the problem here. Any disagreement I might have with one of his edits cannot possibly be justified, in his eyes and also, apparently, yours. And you appear to have chosen one example that contrasts with many, many others. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:40, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Bretonbanquet, I don't get it. If you support a site ban for this editor, you are asking for any and all of his edits to be reverted on sight. They cannot be kept; as Arbcom just clarified, in rare cases another editor is permitted to reinstate an edit by a banned user. But banned precisely means blanket reverting; that's the basis on which some have been blanket reverting this guy. We can't have it both ways. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
      • • Yngvadottir, as usual, I probably missed something, but when did ArbCom clarify the policy (the policy itself has not changed and allows for not reverting at all and reinstating a banned user's edit - WP:BANREVERT)? Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
          • Not a change, but clarified as part of the decision that appears lower down this page: rarely, and with extreme caution, we can choose to reinstate an edit by a banned user. Whereas the option to keep it, or revert wholly or in part on the merits, is what we have now, after he's banned his edits should be reverted on sight, and will be by someone else even if one decides to let one stand. (Or at least that's how I read it when I clicked to see what I'd missed.) Yngvadottir (talk) 02:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
            • Thanks for the link. Interesting procedural point, though. Do we comply with a decision by ArbCom or do we comply with policy? My understanding is that only the community makes policy, not ArbCom. Thus, to the extent the decision conflicts with policy, I'm not sure we have to follow it. Of course, the community can change the current policy to conform to the decision's language.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
      • Well, if that is what has been decided, then so be it. I understood that his good edits could later be restored, but if that is not allowed, then it's worth it if such a uniquely disruptive, abusive and uncompromising editor is removed. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - While I do understand and support the fact anyone can edit Misplaced Pages, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be allowed. It's the fact he is acting in an uncivil manner and the fact he is block evading. I've looked over things... the fact he has been doing this for years concerns me. I think it's time something was done, if he can't be trusted to work (and civilly) with other editors, it's time. I hope everyone understands. Updating, the users opposing have brought up good points. I just don't think insulting others should be tolerated this way. Either way, I hope this gets concluded soon. Kanashimi Hyoketsu 20:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • It couldn't since he's not vandalizing anything. So no, I don't understand. On my talk page are 44 edits he made, all of which were reverted. Please go through the list, as I have, and identify any of them as vandalism. If you can't find any, please withdraw your second sentence. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 20:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • don't revert for no good reason and we can all get along fine. Don't lie about me. And don't ever, ever accuse me of vandalism. And in response to that, what do we have? A false accusation of vandalism. And from someone with whom, to the best of my recollection, I've never interacted with. striking out after the user clarified that their words had been misunderstood. 186.37.203.227 (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
  • You misunderstand. I realize he's not vandalizing anything, that's why it is written as 'vandalizing'. I am supporting based on his being uncivil and ban evasions. However, I have removed that sentence as requested as it is causing confusion. --Kanashimi Hyoketsu 20:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban. For one thing, it's quite likely other copyeditors will decide to lop a few of the "best known for"s - they are low-hanging fruit. For another, the abuse has declined and to my mind never rose to the level of ban-worthiness; banning is the nuclear option and is and should be reserved for the few most incorrigible and disruptive editors. At worst, we should continue to block IPs that cross the line on edit warring and incivility; and as always, there's judgement involved in defining that line. At best, we keep a diligent and able copyeditor, one of many kinds of contributions the project has always valued, without requiring registration or any other kind of self-identification, which it's always been our policy not to require. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• No. User uses an IP. User makes positive edits. User gets routinely reverted for no good reason at all. User loses patience and uses cusswords. User gets blocked (does anyone even know when, or why, or how?), and this "originary block" initiates a cycle of supposed block evasion which is enough warranty for user's edits to be blindly reverted as if they were already a "banned" user. It is indeed a self-perpetuating process; the real surprise is that it took so long for this to find its way to AN. The amount of distrust here, the lack of desire to even attempt communication, the automated fashion of rolling back: I'm trying to bite my tongue, as the IP clearly didn't, though even his opponents seem to have noticed that he has been cussing much less--you see, it does not help to improve your behavior. Let's just say I don't have any good words for all of this. Anyone whose edits get reverted in this fashion, as a matter of routine, would lose their cool. I'm quite embarrassed, and the only bright spot is that Yngvadottir is against banning this editor; I hope there are more who study the matter carefully. Drmies (talk) 20:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban After reading through this thread and the evidence presented over time, I just don't see how the IP's behavior warrants a site ban. I largely agree with the analyses of Yngvadottir and Drmies. I am One of Many (talk) 00:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
• Question. Forgive me if the answer is buried somewhere, but all this is new to me. Can anyone tell me what the first block of this person was for, its duration, and when? If I understand properly, the person was blocked at some point and then during the block edited using a different IP, thereby evading the block. This phenomenon then cascaded so the person could never escape their original "sin" (whatever that was). Please correct me if I'm wrong about this. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Bbb23, I'm obviously not seen as neutral here, but here goes, take it as you will. It's extremely hard to pinpoint the first block as the number of IPs he has used is probably over 100. He has been blocked several times over the past few years, but it's hard to know exactly how many times, for the same reason – we just don't know all the IPs he has used. As far as I can see, each time he is blocked, he simply switches IPs and keeps editing (he has admitted this), to the extent that blocks are essentially meaningless, whether they are for disruption or incivility, or simply for block evasion. I think all the blocks in the past month are for block evasion. Any of us here would have been indeffed years ago for this, with SPI cases coming out of our ears, but somehow this guy is still around. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban - User completely ignores that there is any problem with edit warring and personal attacks, both of which are supposedly blockable offenses, though we seem to be reluctant to actually have the blocks mean anything. Editing in defiance of a block typically leads to extension of the block. We've counted 38 deliberate switches and the editor claims we miss most of them. After 10 or more trips through AN/I, 3RR and Sock, we're still at the point where we started: "Dear IP editor ignoring blocks for personal attacks and edit warring, If you continue to edit war and make personal attacks, we'll make you restart your router to continue editing. Please stop. Sincerely, 'fucking retarded little cunt'." At some point, whether or not he has made constructive edits ceases to matter. He is deliberately disruptive and divisive. Then again, I'm just some "fucking cunt", so what do I know? - SummerPhD (talk) 14:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Summer, you are no C* of any kind, as far as I'm concerned: you're a level-headed, highly productive, and net-assety editor, and I have loved you dearly for many years now. If the IP called you that, they ought to apologize. (I know they called others that, and I don't agree with it.) And, of course, they're an asshole. But is it worth a ban? Drmies (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

No, a personal attack is not worth a ban. However, repeated personal attacks and edit warring leading to a block, editing in defiance of that block, being blocked again for personal attacks and edit warring and repeating the s.ame behavior while crying "Boo hoo, I'm only trying to make the encyclopedia better, you fucking retarded cunt"? Yeah, that's worth a ban. To repeat, he sees nothing wrong with his behavior and does not intend to stop. I don't particularly care what this twerp calls me. The editor is question, though, had no way of knowing that. Personal attacks drive editors away. No one is irreplaceable on Misplaced Pages, including this lout. You think he's softening up. I say you're putting a coat and tie on a boar, offering him a seat at the table and wonder why the china is in pieces on the floor. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Given that you already reverted hours of my work with the false claim that I was banned, it's no surprise that you support a ban to retrospectively justify your strange campaign. I think my favourite one of your destructive edits was this one. Not once, not twice, but three times, you restored the article to a severely, obviously deficient state. Not once did you bother to leave an edit summary. Certainly you were just trying to provoke me. In fact, my only recollection of interactions with you is when you've undone my work for no reason. If people get angry when their work is undone for no reason, do you think it's better to a) ban them for getting angry, or b) not revert for no reason? 186.37.203.227 (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That you do not specifically remember attacking me is easily understood as a result of the number of times you've changed IPs to circumvent various blocks and the numerous editors you have attacked. I undid your work? Boo hoo. Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban vaguely based on the disparity between edits, edit summaries, and an unwillingness to accept that they may be incorrect, but also based on block evasion, which nobody else seems to consider important in this issue. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. Disruptive editor who blatantly sockpuppets. Not here to contribute collaboratively. -- Calidum 03:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

False claims, once again. By virtue of the fact that I've never had an account, it is obvious that I have never engaged in sock puppetry, blatant or otherwise. 186.37.203.227 (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Some of your statements in this discussion are sympathetic. This one is not. I would have thought you were above wikilawyering.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Drmies. I do not feel the user's behavior rises to the level of necessitating a ban. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban. I don't condone the conduct of the person behind all the IP addresses, but just because a person has violated policy doesn't mean they should be site-banned. In this instance, accepting what everyone on both sides says is true, I don't see the point of formally blessing the unconstructive reverts by other editors that are already taking place. Indeed, I'm not even sure that not site-banning the person will change much of the other editors' behavior. He may still be blocked when discovered, and he may still be reverted, if for no other reason than the sock puppetry (no matter what he says about the literal language of the policy). However, until and unless WP:REVERTBAN changes, it is still policy and permits other editors to reinstate the reverted edits if they feel they are constructive, and my understanding is many of them are. This is not easy for me because I am an SPI clerk and am not very forgiving of sock puppetry. However, I take comfort in the fact that King of Hearts, another SPI clerk, opposes the ban - and with remarkable concision. Hopefully, PhilKnight, a check user for whom I have enormous respect, will not take my oppose amiss.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:52, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban since the editor can and is willing to edit productively this should be encouraged. Rolling back good edits helps no one. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:50, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. Per summerPhd as well as the arguments made in the discussion above. We're too coddling of editors who make unfailingly good content edits but just happen to blow up at any provocation. Protonk (talk) 14:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for sanctions against disruptive users

False accusations of vandalism in response to obviously productive edits are extremely damaging to the project and yet are widespread. Due to the inherent extreme anti-IP prejudice which prevails in Misplaced Pages culture, a false accusation of vandalism against an IP normally leads to a block, no matter how obviously sensible the edit it. Anyone making an obviously false accusation of vandalism should be banned from editing for one week. 186.37.203.53 (talk) 19:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, my question above has not been answered. Is an edit that is in itself acceptable, but contains an unacceptable edit summary classed as vandalism? If so, then regardless of the content of such edits, they're vandalism. If not, then can somebody please clarify what the response should actually be to such edits?

I note that reading through this section the IP editor has made no mention of his edit summaries - pray tell what was his justification for using such edit summaries - and then evading blocks by unplugging and resetting his router as a result?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaheel Riens (talk • contribs) 13:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Incivility is not vandalism. If the edit is valid but the comment is offensive or otherwise uncivil, the edit should remain and the editor should be warned. Diego (talk) 12:40, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely true. But I don't think anyone really believes this person responds to warnings, after dozens of them, or blocks either, after many of those. Plus all the edit warring. I wonder if some people have really looked at this case properly, or looked back prior to the past week. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:45, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Looking to nom for RfA

We have only had a single successful RFA since the 4th of July. That's 1 successful RFA in 3 months. I would like to nominate someone but the two noms I had in mind are either AWOL or no longer a suitable candidates. If anyone would like to receive a nom, or at least a review to see if they even stand a chance, feel free to email me. I would like to possibly help a female editor pass RfA if any are interested as part of fighting the gender gap, but I am willing to nominate anyone and multiple candidates if I feel they are ready. I will be around most of the day and can be contacted via IRC or email.--v/r - TP 21:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• I just wanted to add that I am not opposed to nominating male editors, happy to do so. I would like to encourage more females to run and am happy to support them as well. For inclusivity sake, I am willing to nom anyone of any gender.--v/r - TP 02:12, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• User:TParis, I am not a female editor, but I'd like to be nominated, see User:Moonriddengirl/Coaching too. I need to talk to MRG here. --Tito☸Dutta 21:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• I'm too inexperienced right now, but I might be ready in a few months. I'm not really in a rush, though. --Writing Enthusiast 00:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• I'm pretty sure I'm male, but wouldn't mind being able to deal with housekeeping matters (SPA, UAA, AIV) without filing reports. That said, it's entirely possible some of my behavior during content disputes could be a black mark on me (though I'll note that it's always the other guy who gets blocked, banned, or told to drop it). I am not confident that I'm qualified to officially handle disputes between users, but have little to no interest in doing so (as an admin), so that shouldn't be a problem on my end. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• After seeing some of the downright cruel and vicious character assassinations in recent RfAs, I don't think anyone in their right mind would put their hand up. The toxic atmosphere at RfA would need to clear up before I'd even consider it. Reyk _YO! 00:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• I'd be open to at least a review as to whether I'd stand a chance. A glance between my legs suggests that I'm not a female, alas. To be honest, I'm not sure how having spiffy Admin powers would necessarily enhance my or anyone else's Misplaced Pages experience...but if I had concrete ideas about that, and a suitable case of masochism, I likely would have nominated myself some time ago. DonIago (talk) 01:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• I am a female but I really don't think there's much to be garnered in preferring one gender; It's understandable why you're doing it, sure encouraging more females to run would be a good way to stop the gender gap. But female doesn't always equal a 'good' admin. RfA also doesn't simply dorn an easier crowd because of what you have between your legs. They'll still be as reckless and as strident as with any nominee. Nonetheless, glad that you're taking a stand against the lack of successful RfAs by offering to nominate someone. Tutelary (talk) 02:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• Ever since I hit 5k edits and 1k undeleted mainspace edits (don't remember which came first), I've wanted to run a RfA just to see what people say - very little chance of passing, honestly, since most of those mainspace edits are either gnoming or adding/removing AfD tags (among other issues), so I wouldn't suggest nominating me unless you're either a sadist or masochist, depending on your point of view. As far as gender, since we seem to be making a big deal of that for no reason here (I remember a discussion on WT:RfA where it was established that there are proportionally more self-declared female admins in the admin corps than self-declared female editors on en-wiki), I prefer not to say on the internets (minus Facebook, where it's practically impossible), but given some comments I've made and the fact that I prefer to be referred to in the masculine, you can probably infer anyways. (Side note, I've been on IRC once, it's honestly quite boring. I expected something exciting and possibly scandalous considering how people talk about it here, but there was...nothing...) ansh666 02:46, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• While I would like to at some point, right now no because like Reyk says it's not worth the type of character assassination a typical RfA has for supposedly being "no big deal". Perhaps when it was coined in 2006 it wasn't because all you had to do was write enough GAs to gain the tools but now, it's a mess. Sometimes I think of it as an unbalanced beast priding itself on factors which admins don't require (why do you need to have a long history of content creation to use tools which don't require content creation skills?) and generally self-selecting based on a full cavity search of your history and deciding what blemishes to ignore or blow out of proportion, usually because one editor disliked it and many others just agreeing. To say I'm displeased with how RfA is run is an understatement, why anyone would bother with something more difficult and emotionally rigorous than a job interview for a few extra buttons baffles me. tutterMouse (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• I completely agree with TutterMouse's sentiments. It's just not worth it. JMHamo (talk) 13:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• User:Doniago and User:Ian.thomson have both commented above and said they would think about adminship. The two of them have some experience and have never been blocked. I'd encourage both to think more about the possibility. You both have commented at ANI or other boards quite a bit, and if you run you'd expect to get some questions about your work there. Both of you should consider doing more content work. I'm less familiar with User:Titodutta but a nomination is possible there as well. The conversation at User:Moonriddengirl/Coaching is going in the right direction but your chances at RfA would be better if MRG agreed to support your candidacy. EdJohnston (talk) 17:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Correction: I've been blocked once, many years ago, for reverting once too often. I've held back since and have only received one unofficial reminder to my knowledge. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You'd make a good admin in my opinion, Ian. Bishonen | talk 12:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC).

I agree with Bish. Also, having been on the receiving end of a block (albeit historical) is not necessarily a bad thing. It probably makes one more wary of using the right as an admin. Pedro :  Chat  12:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll be glad to make you even more wary, Pedro--after all, I need to get my quota for today or I don't get my check. Drmies (talk) 19:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

We told you not to mention the money. Pedro :  Chat  21:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Is it true that admins who block 50 or more editors get a toaster oven? DonIago (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

A great idea but unfortunately we do not. (Or, at least, I have not been sent one to me when I blocked my 50th editor. May be they only sent ovens inside the US, and I do not qualify).--Ymblanter (talk) 20:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I've never been blocked (unless it was so traumatizing that I blocked it out of my memory...ha ha). I don't know whether it could really be said that I've done "work" at ANI, unless opening cases, getting frustrated with the occasional perception that admins are less willing to step up to the plate than IMO they should be (not that I was in any way biased...) and providing a half-assed interpretation of events on rare occasion counts...does that count? :p As for content work...for better or worse, I've generally tried to limit my interactions with Misplaced Pages to "Misplaced Pages editing is what I do when it's slow at work". I'm both willing and able to check up on things otherwise, but I've resisted becoming much more involved, which I'll freely admit is a reason I may not be a good choice for an admin...though I imagine there are ways in which admins can be of use that don't necessarily require a heightened presence. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Ed! My apologies if I'm being overly-glib here...I think if I contemplated the possibility of WP adminship seriously at this stage rationality might get the best of me and I'd run screaming into the night (he said at 10 am). DonIago (talk) 14:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm with Reyk. I wouldn't advise anyone to go through a 2014-standard RfA. They're toxic, bitter, and pretty much random about who they promote.—S Marshall T/C 11:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Although not a regular participant in RFA, I have read a lot of them over the years and it basically boils down to 1) You're a saint to rival Mother Theresa (depending on your viewpoint) or 2.) You have skin thicker and harder than Emma Frost or Colossus. Blackmane (talk) 22:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Hey, they made me one! Even though I violated at least one of Kudpung's rules. (I cracked jokes. Maybe it helps to have experience in either stand-up or teaching.) Yngvadottir (talk) 13:04, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• I would certainly consider accepting an RFA nomination. I understand that I may be an unsuitable candidate as well. In any regard, I appreciate this thread, and the opportunity it afforded me to say this aloud.—John Cline (talk) 23:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think that you may be unsuitable?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello Berean Hunter, thank you for caring to ask this of me. Firstly, I should have said "I understand that I may be considered as an unsuitable candidate". This because I never believed I was unsuitable, nor that I'd be less than a net-positive; ever. From RFA/1, when I knew everything one could possibly glean, through today with all my mistakes in between – I'd be disingenuous to avoid the reality of potentially harsh criticism. For example, I'm nearly ashamed to admit that it would be RFA/5 for me, and I already know that for some, that alone is a bright line "quick-fail". I also said this, in part, because TParis knows me well enough, to remember some of my blunders without ever needing a diff. While I'd be glad if TP entrusted his nom to me, I owe him understanding, upfront, if instead he declined. With esteem.—John Cline (talk) 20:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Our interactions have not always been the happiest, but I'd never hold that against you personally. Besides, I can't seem to recall your previous username so that might work in your favor ;) I really do try to forgot bad interactions with people and not allow things to get personal. I think there are likely only two or three people that I could not remain objective for on Misplaced Pages and I think one of them is blocked 24/7. The other has been polite and mature enough to stay away from me and I've stayed away from him.--v/r - TP 20:55, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

• I've had someone suggest that I consider the position and am not adverse to being nominated. I realise that there would be pressure on the incumbent and that this is not to be taken lightly, therefore TParis is reviewing my credentials as to whether I am a suitable candidate. If anyone has valid objections as to my being a suitable candidate, or wishes to familiarise themselves with my contributions to Misplaced Pages to date, please feel free to ask questions or check my user history. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:38, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28#VideoPad

I ask an admin to revert the non-admin close at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28#VideoPad for procedural reasons:

1. The close violates the guideline Misplaced Pages:Deletion process#Non-administrators closing discussions: "Close calls and controversial decisions are better left to an administrator."
2. Contentious deletion reviews are always closed by admins.
3. The closer does not have the technical ability to restore the edit history. Misplaced Pages:Deletion process#Non-administrators closing discussions says, "Non-administrators should not close discussions in which they lack the technical ability to act upon the outcome."

   Before reviewing the discussion, the closer would have been forbidden from closing as restore the article's history. It is not appropriate to close a contentious discussion in which from the beginning you are restricted to one outcome.

Misplaced Pages:Deletion process#Non-administrators closing discussions says, "Decisions are subject to review and may be reopened by an administrator. If this happens, take it only as a sign that the decision was not as obvious as you thought."

Cunard (talk) 03:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment  Just 33 minutes before this post I wrote (at ), "...Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28...was closed tonight by a non-admin who has posted 25 times on the talk page of the AfD nominator, so it is possible that this DRV close will be contested.  Unscintillating (talk) 03:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• I noticed the close, was not much impressed with parts of the explanation, and consider the result surprising. I have not had a chance to study it carefully, but I expected to want to lodge a protest. I had not noted that it was an undeclared WP:NAC. I now consider it a bad NAC close and suggest its immediate reversion. Further, NACs are particularly unwelcome at Deletion Review. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Greetings.

A simple head count has 6 against restoring the history vs. 5 in favor of restoring, 1 neutral comment by Randykitty. As you can see, we have no clear majority and there is no way that the discussion could be closed as "overturn". Relisting was also out of question. (16 days already.) But again, per WP:NOTVOTE, a consensus in favor overturning was also non-existent.

In response to Cunard's objections:

1. It was not a close-call at all. Cunard says that because he is interested in undeletion of the article. But in reality, there were no two user who said the same thing except Sandstein and Codename Lisa. My decision was between Endorse and No consensus. Specifically, Administrator Randykitty ably defended himself.
2. Again, it wasn't contentious. It was a clear call. (It has become contentious with this thread. i.e. Cunard made it contentious as a way of bludgeoning the process. So, now, it is precedent and I will never again close a discussion in which Cunard is involved.)
3. Yes, but I didn't need that ability because the result of the closure was endorsing Randykitty's action.

Please note that I actually counted Thincat and S Marshall's argument as endorsing not overturning. Well, their argument are compelling that way.

In response to Unscintillating's objection:

This certain argument is repeated times and again ad nauseam. In the same deletion review page, there was an argument about an AfD that I closed against Codename Lisa. Sandstein agreed with CL in this discussion. CL and I were previously investigated for connection by administrator Atama. CL, according to herself, is so far accused six times of being the meatpuppet or sockpuppet of six different editors in the computing field. (I don't knwo exactly who these six are but one of them is I, one is Jeh and one is Mark Arsten. I remember the last because it was categorically ridiculous.) Basically, some people love to shout "The socks, the socks are calling!" when they run out of plausible arguments.

Fleet Command (talk) 04:03, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Picking out two saying the same thing as decisive is not how to weigh a discussion.

It was contentious, and your inability to read contention makes you particularly unsuitable to have done the close. Further, all moderately discussed DRVs are contentious. Admins do not take their closes overturned at DRV lightly.

Reading S Marshall as "endorse" is an appallingly bad read. S Marshall said the same thing as me. I

I suggest the best option is for you to accept this request for you to self-revert. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I know. I was just being polite. I found your statement in total inconsistency with the reality. Delete means what Randykitty did. Fleet Command (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You didn't like my !vote and so your used your WP:Supervote to ignore it? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:31, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Read below. Fleet Command (talk) 04:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you really referring to my comments in the DRV? Inconsistent with reality? Which statement in particular? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Your argument, in short, says "There was not delete in AfD". I checked the AfD. There was three. Either you are wrong or lying. I assumed good faith and chose "wrong". The amount of decision-making for Randykitty was minimal. Fleet Command (talk) 04:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Alright, please disregard my last. I was too harsh. You said "none of the participants said history deletion was required". There are two ways of looking at it:

1. Yes, they did. "Delete" has always meant delete in whole, not just the latest revision. One of the participants, Msnicki troubled himself to participate in DELREV and reiterate that he meant exactly this.

2. Even if they said nothing, silence means consensus; they should have spoken when they were able to.

Look, just as an admin cannot read a discussion and issue a verdict of "Keep" when everyone say "Delete"/"Merge"/"Redirect"/etc. he cannot read a discussion in which the consensus is "Delete" and instead, issue a verdict of "Redirect, keep history". The amount of decision-making for Randykitty was minimal. Fleet Command (talk) 05:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This is tempting me to reargue the DRV. In short, at AfD, Randykitty was wrong to ignore Cunard's clearly worded strong later argument for at least redirect with history preserved, given that it addressed all previous !votes, the not-meating-the-GNG part, and that there is no evidence that the earlier participants even read Cunard's 11:28, 28 September 2014 post. I guess that 5 minutes just wasn't long enough? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:30, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You are in effect suggesting that closing admin should have ignored the other three, two of them very eminent editors: Rhododendrites (an admin famed for seeking alternatives to deletion) and The Banner. In addition, there is evidence that Rhododendrites did read Cunard's comment. (Did you even check before accusing?) Finally, The Banner cited WP:NOTADVERT, one of the WP:5P which may not be overridden by any other policy, even WP:GNG. All bets are off. Fleet Command (talk) 10:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• This close was procedurally and substantively wrong and should be reverted.

• First, it directly contradicted the instruction at WP:DRV that "After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists".
• Second, there's a good reason why non-admins shouldn't perform closes like this. There were two possible outcomes: a restoration of the article's history, or no restoration. FleetCommand could only perform the second outcome. It was by definition a biased close (whether conscious or not) because the person who closed it could only close it one way. That's why, for instance, WP:NAC says that non-admins should only close deletion discussions when deletion is clearly not on the cards.
• Third, it was just wrong. FleetCommand criticises one side of the debate for eluding the question of "why should something that had no business being on Misplaced Pages in the first place must come back at all." Plainly that is wrong the question to ask. No-one genuinely made the argument that the content had no business being on Misplaced Pages; the delete argument was, in substance, that the subject of the article is not notable. If the closer couldn't understand this fundamental point then the close was performed on the wrong basis.

This need not be a drawn out process. Either FleetCommand can revert the close and walk away quietly, or any administrator can quickly exercise his or her discretion to revert the close themselves. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Reply to first: WP:NACD sanctions non-admin closure of discussion in the event of a backlog. 16 days had passed and this discussion was clearly a backlog.
• Reply to second: Closing a discussion as "Endorse" perfectly was well within my means and didn't need an account role that lack. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy and no amount of heated discussion can impact the fact that Randykitty interpreted the consensus correctly. That's the whole purpose of DRV.
• Reply to third: Wrong! Per WP:DRVPURPOSE, they must! In fact, the policy directly addresses your concern: "Deletion Review should not be used: 1. because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment".

Fleet Command (talk) 10:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Technical comments  WP:NACD is the guideline, while WP:NAC is the essay.  The reopening of a NAC should follow WP:TPO...so "reverting" is used in neither WP:NAC nor WP:NACD.  Fleet Command had the tools for this closing, so had sufficient tools as per WP:NACD to make a non-admin closure.  Administrators with a COI should not reopen an NAC, which specifically includes participants.  Unscintillating (talk) 07:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Technical comment A simple head count has 6 against restoring the history vs. 5 in favor of restoring, 1 neutral comment by Randykitty. As you can see, we have no clear majority and there is no way that the discussion could be closed as Overturn. Relisting was also out of question. (16 days already.) But again, per WP:NOTVOTE, a consensus in favor overturning was also non-existent. Fleet Command (talk) 10:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Somehow, FleetCommand has totally misunderstood what I said in that debate; to read my comment as an "endorse" is to get it completely backwards. I was trying to express a complex and nuanced thought without being too verbose, and I've apparently somehow been unclear.

  My view is that FleetCommand's good faith attempt to close this DRV was flawed. It should be reverted and re-closed by someone else.—S Marshall T/C 11:13, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• @S Marshall: Did you read above when I said 6 against restoration, 5 in favor? That mean I am counting you as "in favor of restoration"; otherwise, it would have been 7 to 4, not 6 to 5. But yes, your reasoning in fact worked against your verdict and showed why Randykitty was correct. Now, reverted and changed to what? Overturn? It hasn't gained neither the consensus nor even the majority votes. Fleet Command (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, I did read all your vote-counting, and yes, I do realise that you stand by your close. I'm afraid my view remains unchanged. I'm sorry if that makes you unhappy.—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Unhappy? No. What's the worst that can happen? An admin will probably come along, block me, ban me from DELREV, ban from interacting with Cunard, and overturns my closure to "no consensus". None of these are exactly bad. Fleet Command (talk) 12:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• I have undone the close and reclosed it myself.--v/r - TP 21:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Following an excellent suggestion by TParis on my talk page, I have undeleted the article history and moved the article as it was just before deletion (minus the AfD notice) to draft space here. It should not be moved back to main article space without significant improvements in sourcing and without having been checked by an admin (not necessarily me). --Randykitty (talk) 17:43, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
• I suggest taking a look at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Aggressive_and_abusive_editing.2C_excessive_abuse_etc_by_User:FleetCommand. As above suggested by Unscintillating , I smell an apparent tag teaming between the AfD nominator and the non-admin closer which spans entirely different topics. It certainly deserves a closer look. Cavarrone 06:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

File:Alka_Seltzer_tablet.JPG - hide previous revision?

A cropped version of File:Alka_Seltzer_tablet.JPG has been uploaded to avoid any copyright issues with packaging that was shown in the previous revision. Would it please be possible to consider hiding or suppressing the previous revision(s) of this image? Thanks. --Elegie (talk) 05:04, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Done. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Sarah Brown

I'd appreciate it if an admin that has not previously been involved could pop over to Sarah Jane Brown (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and educate the small cadre of people obsessed with moving the article. They seem to think there's a problem with the current title and that merely thinking so makes it so, even though many people (including Jimbo) disagree; they seem to think that they can arrange a vote with ad hoc weighting system rather than the usual process of consensus building; and they seem not to be too bothered about notifying the large number of people who have previously weighed in rejecting the many identically problematic solutions. Even if they are not actually engaged in trying to slip one past the goalie while he's looking the other way, that's how it looks.

Me, I think people obsessed with the titles of BLPs are almost certainly an inherently problematic class of editor, but what do I know? I'm obviously weird because I don't see anyhting wrong with the current title. Guy (Help!) 06:37, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Ha ha! You haven't seen the participant list. This is going to be the biggest and bestest move discussion in the history of Misplaced Pages. Johnuniq (talk) 07:10, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like there is plenty of attention on this at the article. If consensus is to use this method to determine a consensus, then so be it. I don't see the problem.--v/r - TP 17:46, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

To my amazement, the dispute is merely between Sarah Jane Brown and Sarah Brown, and the argument is over the need to select a primary article for the name Sarah Brown. That so many people is involved is proof not of the importance of the question, but the inconclusiveness of some of our procedures, and the absurd problems caused by our disam policy. DGG ( talk ) 22:54, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this for me. I confess, I saw it pop up in my watchlist and my heart sank. As is probably obvious, I do not think there is a problem to fix, and the titanic waste of effort in fixing this non-problem is a source of frustration. I am now back from my singing week in Enkhuizen so can participate in person rather than asking for help. Guy (Help!) 07:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Request article move to previous title -- currently locked into a non-neutral title -- Ebola "outbreak" in U.S.

As I mention here, it seems obvious to me that some admin attention could be very beneficial because a national newspaper is saying this is all far from an outbreak. However, the current article title calls it an outbreak: Ebola virus outbreak in the United States. I've tagged the article now. Previously I started a move request discussion, but it seems some immediate attention is warranted to reverse the move that caused the article to call the cases an "outbreak". Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:09, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Biosthmors You should request here -> Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Technical requests Bladesmulti (talk) 12:15, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Done, but perhaps I did something wrong there. It's quite complex all these templates and categories for technical requests and such. It seems all so simple what needs to be fixed in my mind. Hopefully this will take care of it. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I've now fixed the link in Template:Ebola which was generating a lot of references to the old article title. -- The Anome (talk) 00:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Please close my RfC; it's been resolved satisfactorily

I opened an RfC that has since been resolved, and it can be closed: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Redrose64 Tinmanic (talk) 23:46, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done NE Ent 00:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

admin

It's a long way to adminship and being here for just a week is only the very beginning of the process. Learn how the English (sic!) Misplaced Pages works and how to create content. Then you may apply for adminship through the usual process. De728631 (talk) 12:58, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

right to ask where I want to be adminis — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levente 2 (talk • contribs) 09:26, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

In about 5,000 more edits, see WP:RFAADVICE then WP:RFA the panda ₯’ 09:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

And without meaning to be rude, learn English first. Neatsfoot (talk) 10:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Admin to E-mail

Good afternoon all, I was hoping to find an admin I could e-mail. I have an account issue which needs to be forwarded privately. Anyone available? Thank you! -OberRanks (talk) 18:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

There isn't much sysops can do for you related to account issues. A bug request to the WMF technies might be better.--v/r - TP 18:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Its a tricky situation, if its okay, can I e-mail the details? -OberRanks (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

As an alternative, instead of email, you could connect to the IRC and ask to speak with an admin privately about a matter. There are generally a few lurking ones willing to help. Tutelary (talk) 19:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I did so! -OberRanks (talk) 19:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for RfC closure/Update: closure reverted

Hello, could an admin here please close this here. I'd done it myself as it had gone stale, but it turns out that is not the proper form as I'd started the RfC. Would appreciate it. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Update: Sorry to bother, but the closure by LHM was reverted here after Zad68 visited the editor’s talk here. Still need that closure and, obviously, it must be an admin to save further disruption. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• I restored the close. As a completely uninvolved editor, I looked at the discussion and judged where consensus lay. I will not restore it again, though, as if Floydian reverts again, it will then be a matter for administrator intervention. LHM 23:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you, LHM. I agree it will require admin intervention if he reverts again. Appreciate your patience and help. Thanks. SW3 5DL (talk) 00:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

    He's reverted again, so it's now out of my hands. I've opened an ANI thread about it. LHM 00:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

    • And I fully support LHM in his ANI complaint. There was no reason for this to need an admin, it's simply another example of disruption by this editor that has been present since the article was created. SW3 5DL (talk) 01:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

    SW3 5DL I visited Floydian's User Talk to let him know he was incorrect when he made this comment indicating he thought the close was made by an admin.

    SW3 5DL I agree with your comment above in this thread where you say "Still need that closure and, obviously, it must be an admin to save further disruption". The editor who closed that RFC wasn't an admin and per your own statement you agree it should be done by an admin. I'm in 100% agreement with you there. Zad68 01:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

    There is no requirement than an administrator close an RFC. Any uninvolved editor can do so. And I was uninvolved, and did so. Floydian was very out of line to revert the close twice. LHM 01:49, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Could the administrator who reviews that RFC also carefully investigate the discussion located there regarding possible WP:CANVASSing by the editor who started the RFC. I didn't even notice that discussion regarding the possible canvassing until just now, and I wasn't involved in that RFC. Zad68 15:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
  • While an editor has closed the RFC, the possible canvassing issue still needs to be investigated. Zad68 15:31, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

    Before closing that RFC, I briefly looked into the issue of canvassing, and saw no apparent problems in that regard. LHM 16:38, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

No canvassing done at all. On the contrary, all RfC rules on publicizing the RfC whilst waiting on the bot were followed. The RfC was posted at the Village Pump here, on the talk pages of 10 editors chosen at random from the Feedback Service List, per the RfC rules/suggestions for publicizing, and editors from the immediately preceding AfD were notified, per the RfC page. Only two of the editors chosen at random responded, JBarta and Silvo 1973, and both voted "Merge." I voted "keep." I've not made that many RfC's in the 6 years I've been an editor. The RfC page was most helpful and I followed it. SW3 5DL (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• Understand that's your take on it... The discussion there also includes comments from experienced editors who did express a concern regarding canvassing. If there's no canvassing issue, perfect, it'll get closed as such and it's settled and (likely) won't come back as an issue in the future. If there is, it'll be something you'll know to watch out for in the future. Either way, the project benefits. Zad68 17:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Beg pardon, but No, it's not my "take on it" at all. It's a matter of what I actually did and offering diffs to show what I actually did. I used the RfC page, I followed the instructions and did not violate the policy. Forgive me, but you on the other hand, have shown up here, no diffs in hand to support your unfounded accusations. If there's to be anyone "watching out in future" it seems it will be you making false accusations for no apparent purpose other than casting aspersions. SW3 5DL (talk) 18:10, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it is your take. Several very experienced editors with medical editors have expressed dismay at your editing style, your complete lack of awareness of proper policy and procedure, your seeming ignorance to your wrongdoings, and your continued steamrolling to get your way. You have completely dismayed the editor who has spent much of the past year building the ebola article to a good standard in regards to WP:MEDMOS. The completely blissful ignorance of LHM with regard to this matter is exactly why an admin should be closing the RfC. - Floydian  _¢ 03:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Where are the diffs that show this? You and Zad68 make these claims but as a very respected Arb once said, "No diffs, no case." End of. SW3 5DL (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I provided them in the RfC. I'll also provide this one as well, and a quote from it to highlight this situation: "Really, you'd think that just one editor could not cause so much disruption and take so much of the joy out editing" - Floydian  _¢ 04:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

How is that possibly related to me? SW3 5DL (talk) 06:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Because it was posted to my talk page in the context of your actions. - Floydian  _¢ 17:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nominees needed for Editor of the Week

Hey all, Editor of the Week has been going strong for almost two years now, but right now, our queue of accepted nominations is dwindling ... we could really use some more nominees. If you know of an editor (a non-administrator) who is underrecognized for fantastic contributions, regardless of the area of those contributions (articles, images, files, backlogs, noticeboards, etc. are all acceptable), please consider nominating them to receive some recognition. Please see the project page for more information. Thank you very much for your consideration ... this is a great tool for editor retention. Go Phightins! 17:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

• *throws dollar bills at the crowd* ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 06:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Can't believe I haven't seen this project - I've nominated someone :) *picks up dollar bills and scurries away* ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 06:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• It's all gone downhill since late July 2013. Lugnuts 08:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Lugnuts -- What makes you say that? The project is still thriving, just has a current shortage of nominees, likely an anomaly. Go Phightins! 01:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Redirect request - Mr Justice Mostyn

Please could searches and links for Mr Justice Mostyn be directed to the extant page for Nicholas Mostyn. Mostyn is a leading Judge of the Family Division of the High Court of England and Wales. Thanks.Mr Tangle (talk) 10:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Now done, I see. ThanksMr Tangle (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Lia Olguța Vasilescu should not be deleted!

It is well sourced and a fact from Lia Olguța Vasilescu appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 11 October 2014. It is against the spirit of wikipedia to remove a fine article like this. Osugiba (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The above message was brought to you by a self-confessed sock of User:Iaaasi, who is blocked. (I'm leaving the message here as the sockmaster clearly has enough energy to create yet another sock to repost it if deleted.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

See here in WP:AN/I. -- Hoary (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Norden1990

I want to draw the attention of the administrators to the Norden1990 case. He has an indefinite block and he has made lots of illegal contributions since he was blocked. But unfortunately, administrators ignore his investigation page. The last investigation request was reviewed after 15 days and the closing message was "IP appears to be dynamic and the last edit made was over two weeks. Sockmaster has likely moved on to another IP, so I don't see how blocking would prevent anything. Closing. ". How can administrators be so sloppy here? They ignore his case and after 2 weeks they say "now it is too late" ? A reasonable administrators would have immediately have made a IP range block for the group of socks 84.236.42.94, 84.236.42.0, 84.236.7.157, 84.236.16.49.

I strongly suggest administrators to look at his case as soon as possible, before he "likely moves to another IP" again. Some range blocks could be shaped there (there are some clear favourite IP formats there). and maybe a site ban after so many months of continous socking. Osugiba (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The above message was brought to you by a self-confessed sock of User:Iaaasi, who is blocked. (I'm leaving the message here as the sockmaster clearly has enough energy to create yet another sock to repost it if deleted.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

SNL episode list disruptions

Two years ago several editors and I instituted the Episode list template on SNL season pages, where previously an inconsistent Episodes wikitable and an unencyclopedic/redundant "Listings" section documented episodes. Since we instituted the uniform Episode list templates, which are transcluded to List of Saturday Night Live episodes, anonymous editors began reinserting the original format into the articles, starting with Saturday Night Live (season 38).

Even a year+ after the Episode list template had been in place, the disruptions continued in season 39, most followed by immediate self-reverts. Today, two years after this originally began as edit warring, another one of these edits reoccurred on the season 40 page.

Season 38

• November 17, 2012‎
• November 20, 2012
• December 4, 2012‎
• December 10, 2012‎
• December 23, 2012‎
• January 7, 2013
• January 10, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• January 29, 2013
• January 31, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• February 21, 2013
• April 1, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• April 29, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• May 4, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• May 14, 2013
• May 20, 2013
• June 23, 2013
• July 19, 2013
• August 15, 2013
• September 9, 2013 & immediate self-revert

Season 39

• September 18, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• October 17, 2013
• November 2, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• November 24, 2013 & immediate self-revert
• January 8, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• January 18, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• February 6, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• March 21, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• April 25, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• June 7, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• August 4, 2014
• September 21, 2014 & immediate self-revert

Season 40

• September 28, 2014 & immediate self-revert
• October 20, 2014 & immediate self-revert

Is there anything to be done about these disruptions? I only ask because they affect the transclusions to the List of Episodes page as well as the season page's own stability. Should the season pages be semi-page protected or the anonymous editors warned/blocked? (though I did warn some of the individual anons previously Talk:List of Saturday Night Live episodes#'Listings' sections on Seasons pages / User talk:190.45.215.88 / User talk:24.73.197.194)

Thought I should ask for some feedback from objective administrators, since this is a unique situation. Thanks. -- Wikipedical (talk) 18:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I configured indfinite pending changes for Episode 40. Generally, I do not like an idea that pending changes should be indefinite, certainly not for the first time, but the maximum finite duration they can be set is one year, and here we have disruption which lasts longer than a year. In a couple of years, one can request the reduction of PC at WP:RFPP if needed. If for other episodes similar disruption continues, please ping me or post a RFPP request. I assume some of the regular editors of these articles are patrollers; if not they are invited to apply for the flag.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually Ymblanter, all forms of protection can have the length of time customized by using the "other time" selection and specifying the length of time in the entry box. The drop down options are just commonly used durations and are included for their ease of use. Mike V • Talk 21:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know, but I do not have any preferred duration here. I think we should look how often vandal edits appear and then decide. Everybody is welcome to change my protection though (I am going to bed and will not be active for the next 8 hours).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the topic ban of Lucia Black from Japanese entertainment topics

At Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive264#Excessive topic-ban, a topic ban of User:Lucia Black from Japanese entertainment topics was enacted. I'd like to propose that the topic ban be rescinded, leaving in place Lucia Black's topic ban from Ghost in the Shell and related articles, the prohibition on Lucia Black starting threads at AN/ANI without permission, and any other previously existing topic bans on Lucia Black that might be in place. I have not consulted with Lucia Black on this, but was reminded of that discussion because Lucia Black mentioned me on Jimbo Wales' talk page (and then posted on my talk page as I started writing this).

I want to acknowledge that I do think Lucia Black was disruptive at AN/ANI (including in the thread where the Japanese entertainment topic ban was enacted), and also that I think the topic ban from Ghost in the Shell and related articles was well deserved. I also acknowledge that Lucia Black seems to think that a group of editors are out to get her, and doesn't seem to understand that she actually has been annoying and disruptive in AN/ANI discussions. I thought that the proposal for a full site ban on Lucia Black was reasonable (even though I probably would have voted against a site ban had I voted).

Despite that, I feel the topic ban on Lucia Black should be removed for the following reasons:

1. Lucia Black was in general working productively with other editors on Japanese entertainment related subjects. For example, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Archive_61#We_need_to_make_reforms_.28MOSAM_fix_proposal_2.0.29 and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Archive_61#We_need_another_FA_article, from just before the topic ban was enacted. Because Lucia Black was already working productively in the area from which she was topic banned, the topic ban doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose. Suggesting that Lucia Black should show good work elsewhere before the topic ban is overturned also doesn't make sense to me, as again, she was already doing good work. The only areas where she was really causing problems were Ghost in the Shell and AN/ANI, and she already had separate topic bans for those areas. While she was continuing to be disruptive in those specific areas, topic banning her from other places where she wasn't being disruptive just makes no sense.

2. While I'm not entirely sure what subject area everyone edits in, the impression I got was that the people in favor of both a site ban and a topic ban were primarily people who have interacted with Lucia Black at AN/ANI, and that people who have interacted with Lucia Black on Japanese entertainment articles were mostly opposed to any sort of further sanctions. It seems nonsensical to me for her to be topic banned from Japanese entertainment when the people who work in that subject area don't want her topic banned.

3. Because a topic ban was proposed as more of an aside and not as the main subject of the discussion (which was instead for a full site ban), I think many people didn't mention that they were against it when they otherwise would have. For myself at least, had I realized that that a topic ban was a possible outcome of the discussion, I would have probably participated and voted against a topic ban. I think the consensus of the discussion likely would have been different had a topic ban been proposed directly, separate from the discussion of a site ban.

I want to apologize for taking up any more of anyone's time with this discussion. I know some users (e.g., Hasteur, Robert McClenon, and Salvidrim!) expressed frustration with how much time has been wasted on issues related to Japanese entertainment and Lucia Black specifically. I want to remind everyone that you don't have to respond to this thread (or any thread on Lucia Black, anime, or whatever) if you think your time could be more productively spent elsewhere. I've created this discussion because I personally think that Lucia Black was making good contributions, and that those contributions outweigh any time wasted on AN/ANI. I ask that anyone responding here please consider first and foremost whether the topic ban is useful for the subject to which it applies, Japanese entertainment, rather than focusing on AN/ANI. Calathan (talk) 21:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Her drama wasted too much time of constructive editors, and until the very end, she refused to concede any sort of responsibility towards her actions. Zero awareness of the issues. As far as she's ever let on, she attributes her topic ban 100% to "people out to get her", and "0% her combative and disruptive edits". I can't support repealing it with that sort of attitude. Sergecross73 msg me 21:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

But what does any of that have to do with Japanese entertainment? I agree that Lucia has wasted tons of time of people here at AN/ANI, and been really rude to people here, and doesn't acknowledge that she has been wrong here, but again, I don't understand why she would be topic banned from Japanese entertainment articles because of it. Calathan (talk) 22:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Because that's where all the disruption happens. I don't see what's not to get. Sergecross73 msg me 22:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

But the disruption doesn't happen there, it happens here, at AN/ANI. I've had WT:ANIME on my watch list for many years, and I can't remember ever seeing her be disruptive there. Likewise, I can't remember ever seeing her be disruptive on any anime-related article I've had watchlisted (though obviously she was disruptive on Ghost in the Shell, which isn't one I've watchlisted). Calathan (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing you don't spend much time at WP:VG then? She was disruptive with countless video game articles. I'm pretty sure a discussion at WP:VG that spurred the topic ban discussions. Couple all that with her endless issues with the Ghost in the Shell anime/manga articles, and it's pretty easy how they came up with a "Japanese Entertainment" description - the issues occur with Japanese video games, manga, and anime. Unless there's a fourth kind of Japanese entertainment she wants to edit, that this topic ban is impeding on, the end decision made a lot of sense. Sergecross73 msg me 23:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't spend time at WP:VG, so I wouldn't be aware of any disruption there. Ghost in the Shell was an exception to her normal behavior from what I personally witnessed. If there was a lot of disruption talking place elsewhere, then I admit the topic ban makes more sense. Calathan (talk) 23:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm honestly rather surprised you're going through such lengths to change her topic ban. Your account of her actions is more scathing than some of the people who wish to have her topic banned. Sergecross73 msg me 02:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I've notified Lucia Black of this discussion per the page instructions, though I told her I personally don't think she should post here. However, I was wondering if it would be appropriate for me to notify WikiProject Anime and manga and WikiProject Video games. My thought is that would be appropriate since they are subject areas to which this pertains, as long as the notices are worded in a neutral fashion, but I wanted to make sure first. Calathan (talk) 22:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of TBAN altogether, because Lucia hasn't provided any evidence that she even acknolwedges her problems, and has made no effort whatsoever to reassure the community that she will not continue the same behaviour. Propose narrowing/clarification of scope from "Japanese entertainment" to "Japanese anime and manga, broadly construed", because I think it maintains the usefulness of the scope, while providing a somewhat clearer guideline. I also wish to thank Sergecross73 for letting me know I had been mentioned on AN, because Calathan certainly failed to do so. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 22:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Salvidrim!, I'm sorry for not notifying you. I initially had your name and the other names I listed linked so that the notification system would automatically alert you that you had been mentioned. However, then I thought that might be rude, since I was specifically mentioning you because I thought you had felt this subject was a waste of time. I didn't want to seem like I was intentionally wasting your time, so I removed the wikilinks. It seems clear that you felt it was rude not to notify you, so I'm sorry for doing that. Calathan (talk) 23:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, I don't think that proposed narrowing makes sense. Sergecross73's commented above that he thinks Lucia has been disruptive on WP:VG, so if a topic ban is warranted, then removing them from the scope wouldn't seem to make sense. Calathan (talk) 23:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I do feel this is a waste of time, and I'm glad you realize that much, but notifying people you mention on AN/ANI isn't just suggested, it's required. As for the scope, "Japanese entertainment" doesn't even come close to being analoguous to "video games". Most issues at WP:VG, IMO, centered on animanga-related video games, and these would obviously be covered under "Japanese anime and manga, broadly construed". A topic ban is meant as an intermediary measure meant to try and avoid banning the user entirely; if there is continued disruption outside of the scope of the topic ban, that can be dealt with separately. I just think "Japanese entertainment" can be vague and that my proposed scope serves both Lucia and the community better by being more focused and unambiguous. Under the current scope, Mario games can be considered "Japanese entertainment", while Donkey Kong games wouldn't; that sort of illogical thing should be avoided whenever possible. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I thought it was only required to notify people whom a topic is about, not those mentioned in passing. The big orange banner that appears doesn't say to notify anyone you mention, but to notify anyone you start a topic about. I've never heard the requirement to notify anyone just mentioned come up in ANI discussions before, and I read those frequently. Anyway, I don't understand the statement ""Japanese entertainment" doesn't even come close to being analoguous to "video games"" . . . I don't think I suggested anything of the sort. I do understand what you are getting at though. I personally don't think the sanctions are useful, but if people do think they should remain, then it does make sense for them to be unambiguous. Calathan (talk) 00:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict × 4)Oppose at this time. This request seems to challenge the validity of the topic ban on several grounds, such as that those supporting sanctions were too far removed from Lucia Black's encyclopedia work to cogently evaluate the situation (essentially the opposite logic in WP:INVOLVED), and that the topic ban is too broad (though Calathan also seems to state that the siteban proposal was reasonable, even if he/she would not have supported it). Honestly, I don't find these arguments convincing. If Lucia Black is editing productively in another area and the topic ban had outlived its usefulness, some rolling back of the editing restrictions could be considered. But a facial challenge to the validity of the ban just doesn't seem right. What I find disturbing is the suggestion that AN/ANI regulars should just ignore Lucia Black's disruption of those fora in recognition of her positive contributions, rather than call for sanctions. This ignores the critical problem of unseen disruption—nascent editors who just stop editing when they encounter difficulties. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 22:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I do agree strongly that working well with other editors is important, and in general think it is more important than writing good content. If I thought Lucia Black was scaring away editors from Japanese entertainment articles, I would be in favor of topic banning her from there. However, I instead think Lucia Black is working well with other people on Japanese entertainment articles, which is why I don't think she should be topic banned from there (I do however, think strongly that she should be topic banned from AN/ANI). Calathan (talk) 23:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

• (Edit conflict x 2) Weak support. I didn't think she deserved to be banned from this stuff in the first place, and back then I voted accordingly, but her behavior wasn't flawless and she hasn't demonstrated any willingness to correct the problems there were. Tezero (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support- I thought the topic ban was unnecessarily harsh, overly broad in scope, and vindictive. It's been several months without disruption so the ban is clearly not accomplishing anything useful now, if it ever did, which I doubt. Reyk _YO! 00:19, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The bans purpose was to end her all excessively combative arguments. There haven't been any Lucia incidents since it was enacted. How can you say it accomplished nothing? Sergecross73 msg me 00:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

On the overwhelming majority of articles she's banned from, there was never a problem in the first place. The ban is unnecessarily broad and given the, I'll be blunt, sneaky way it was enacted I do not think it should stand. Reyk _YO! 01:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, we are talking about a large swath of articles here. to compare its like being blocked from editing all articles related to sports because bad choices were made on a superbowl article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support This support is coming from someone who works on anime/manga related articles, I feel that Lucia had already upset a certain group of editors and an excuse was looked for to drive the final nail in. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:25, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support Even if this is going to end up with clear oppose, no consensus, I have a thought that she has been changed. Knowing what type of discussion these editors had, she could have been blocked forever, may be she has learned something from the topic ban. She is eager to make useful contributions to this topic and so, the topic ban can be removed. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support - I was the original proposer of the topic-ban, as a "compromise" between a warning and a site-ban. I see no evidence that she has learned her lesson, to stop creating drama. However, she has served time that, for her, amounts almost to a site-ban. I am willing to see her topic-ban lifted on two conditions. First, it should be understood that any further public quarreling with other editors, at which she is a champion, will result in a two-month to six-month block. Second, since we don't know whether she has learned that lesson, she should continue to be topic-banned from any filings at WP:AN or WP:ANI. She doesn't acknowledge that she has learned her lesson, but WP:ROPE applies. If she doesn't know that she can hang herself with 14 feet of rope, we don't need to protect her. Lift the ban for now. Leave the ban on drama board filings in place. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:58, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Can you clarify what you mean when you say "any further public quarreling with other editors, at which she is a champion"? Debates are a part of Misplaced Pages. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose. Bans should be appealed by the user that is banned, not by a third party. Until we actually hear from Lucia Black here, I don't think this request is actionable. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - There is a simultaneous discussion going on at User talk:Jimbo Wales#I need some help that others may be interested in reviewing. For myself I stick by my original point. Despite Lucia Black's protestations to the contrary, I am highly skeptical that she is unable to edit in other areas to demonstrate her capacity to collaborate with other editors in a WP:CIVIL manner. I'm neither for nor against the current ban, but I understand why it was placed and I don't think bans should be treated lightly. Unfortunately I also can't agree with Calathan's description of Lucia Black's past problematic behavior as being restricted to the GitS articles and AN/ANI. Here's an example of a battleground that formed seemingly out of the blue at WT:VG. I'd love to see her prove herself elsewhere for a period to allow the community to see a positive record of her conflict-free editing. Again I am quite doubtful that she is actually incapable of editing other areas. That seems like nonsense to me. Whether she is willing to make an effort to prove herself is up to her. -Thibbs (talk) 04:10, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Editing and other functions disabled at Sankar Chakraborti

I was trying to make changes to this article based on VRTS ticket # 2014102010006554. I discovered that not only does the "submit changes" button not result in any response, but that the Search function does not work as well. I'm using monobook, for those who are interested. The other matter is that there are a very high number of transcluded pages on this article, which might be messing around with this. I've posted this to WP:VPT, but I wanted to post it here as well for the sake of urgency. I, JethroBT 00:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: While I was writing this, it looks like an edit was made to the page, so perhaps not everyone will encounter this issue. I, JethroBT 00:12, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

As it turned out, clearing my cache appears to cleared up these issues. I, JethroBT 01:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

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