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Revision as of 00:17, 3 October 2004 editFormeruser-81 (talk | contribs)22,309 edits →"Crackpot" theories← Previous edit Revision as of 01:13, 3 October 2004 edit undo64.30.208.48 (talk) →"Crackpot" theoriesNext edit →
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:For LaRouche, it was a crushing blow. :For LaRouche, it was a crushing blow.
reasonable assertion reasonable assertion
::''Why is that? How would you know? --] 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)''

:His first wife Janice had similarly walked out on him a decade earlier, taking with her the couple's young son. :His first wife Janice had similarly walked out on him a decade earlier, taking with her the couple's young son.
True True
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:His previous conspiratorial inclinations had now grown into a bizarre tapestry weaving together classical conspiracy theories of the 19th century and post-Marxian economics. :His previous conspiratorial inclinations had now grown into a bizarre tapestry weaving together classical conspiracy theories of the 19th century and post-Marxian economics.
Coloured by Berlet's POV but it is true there was a change in LaRouche's thinking Coloured by Berlet's POV but it is true there was a change in LaRouche's thinking
::''Herschel offered a non-psychobabble explanation for the change. --] 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)''
:He began articulating a `psycho-sexual' theory of political organizing. :He began articulating a `psycho-sexual' theory of political organizing.
True True
:Sexism and homophobia became central themes of the organization's theories. :Sexism and homophobia became central themes of the organization's theories.
True True
:'''POV.''' '' --] 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)''


So how is this paragraph the package of lies described by LaRouche's defenders? ] 00:17, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC) So how is this paragraph the package of lies described by LaRouche's defenders? ] 00:17, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:''The supposed causes are not proven by the effects. --] 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)''

Revision as of 01:13, 3 October 2004


Irresponsible edit warriors

I am trying to clear up some of the material on the Herschel Krustofsky list. People who revert these edits should have the courtesy of participating in the discussion on the list. Weed Harper 14:18, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You are trying to smuggle various LaRouchite fantasies back into the article. These will of course be reverted. Adam 14:38, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your accusation is impolite and wrong. I didn't insert anything; I took out material which is obvious POV, and which you did not defend in the talk pages. Weed Harper 19:57, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Attn. User:John_Kenney and User:Bcorr: this article is listed under category NPOV_disputes. It is poor Wikiquette to revert numerous edits, which have been thoroughly discussed on the talk pages, without participating in the discussion. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:03, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Anonymous Sources

After the big fuss made about quoting Ramsey Clark, I think that the allegations from anonymous sources should be removed. Imagine if Herschel or myself tried to put in a pro-LaRouche quote from an anonymous source! An anonymous source cannot be put under the same sort of scrutiny that Ramsey Clark was. It looks like someone is trying to make sure that Fred Newman doesn't come under that sort of scrutiny.

Also, accusations that come from Dennis King should be identified as coming from him, and not simply presented as fact. As far as no one discreditting Dennis King, what is there to discredit? He was a guy scratching our a living as "Caspar the friendly ghost writer", selling term papers to college students. Then he was paid by a bunch of rich right-wingers to write an attack on LaRouche, which was circulated to a tiny group of die-hard LaRouche-haters, and then it wound up in the discount bins at K-Mart. Then Dennis vanished back into obscurity. Weed Harper 19:57, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It looks like someone is trying to make sure that Fred Newman doesn't come under that sort of scrutiny.

Does it really? What I wrote was:

Ironically, Newman has been accused of similar psychological abuse and of copying LaRouche's methods in his own group, the International Workers Party.

Please explain how this statement "make(s) sure that Fred Newman doesn't come under that sort of scrutiny"?AndyL 20:15, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's not what you originally wrote. And anyway, it's wrong. Who on earth has accused Newman of "copying LaRouche's methods"? Weed Harper 20:25, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That is what I wrote prior to your comment above. As for who would accuse Newman of copying LaRouche - quite a number of people:

Newman often bragged about how much he learned from LaRouche, and, as noted below, the reported organizational operations of LaRouche’s group are frighteningly similar to those of Newman’s group.
Like LaRouche’s National Caucus of Labor Committees, Newman runs a very tightly con-trolled organization.  Like LaRouche, Newman has created numerous organizations (most only paper) with divergent names; some to attract particular individuals, some solely to make money, many with names so similar to true left organizations that unknowing individuals are often fooled (e.g., Rainbow Alliance and Rain-bow Lobby, which have no connection to Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow Coalition; the Unemployed and Welfare Council, which attacked the Na-tional Welfare Rights Organization, etc.).

(Newman then went on to form the IWP and to apply his own brand of totalitarian psychotherapy to lure and maintain cadre as slave labor, while mimicking LaRouche’s use of transient front groups, as well as his clever habit of accumulating millions of dollars in federal matching funds through pretentious presidential campaigns.)

the fact that the IWP's fascination (and rivalry) with Lyndon LaRouche (aka Lyn Marcus) clearly remained intact a full two years after their brief 1973 alliance is indicative of a lingering obsession. As you will note, the paper even quotes LaRouche with occasional reverence. (For LaRouche's early theories, see LaRouche's Beyond Psychoanalysis, "The Sexual Impotence of the Puerto Rican Socialist Party," and "The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach." See also Washington Post and Political Research Associates.) This article also reveals how the IWP's political tactics eerily shadowed that of the NCLC (in fact, the IWP's venture in to electoral politics may have been motivated by LaRouche's 1975 presidential campaign).  Finally, I somehow suspect that Newman has not yet matured beyond the fixation with "power and authority" as outlined herein.

AndyL 21:36, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)




Dennis King

Attention Weed Harper: We have already been through this argument several times with Herschelkrustofsky. King's book is the only published biography of LaRouche. Until someone writes a better one (and god knows why anyone would bother), he is the best source. His book was published by a reputable publisher. Until such time as he is shown to be an unreliable source, we are entitled to cite him. I remind you that Herschelkrustofsky asserted that King had forged his citation of the article in which LaRouche said that only 1.5 million Jews died during World War II. I located the LaRouche article proving that King was right and Herschelkrustofsky was wrong. So spare us further histrionics on this subject. Adam 23:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What Herschel asserted was that King provided no quote. Don't put words in his mouth. And King could be Mother Theresa as far as I am concerned, his opinions and theories should still be attributed to him. Opinions and theories are not the same as verifiable research. I think this article would be better if some of the opinions and theories were trimmed. Weed Harper 20:22, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article is now so long that sadly it is necessary to split it in two. I think splitting it along biographical / ideological lines is a good way to do it, but I am open to other suggestions. Adam 00:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

By eliminating large segments of your own theories and gratuitous attacks, you could make the article quite manageable. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:39, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We could have an article called United States v. LaRouche that deals specifically with the legal case. AndyL 01:29, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

POV Sources

Just because someone has their own web page doesn't make them a source worthy of inclusion in a Misplaced Pages article. I can see why you fellows kept them anonymous for so long. Weed is correct in making the point that if Ramsey Clark's opinion requires a lengthy disclaimer -- after all, he was only Attorney General and a recognized authority on the misuse of the criminal justice system for political purposes -- then there ought to be some discussion of the background, qualifications, and political biases of Dennis King, John Foster Berlet, Tim Wohlforth, Scott McLemee (who the hell is he?), and various disaffected members of Fred Newman's group.

I would suggest that the inclusion of such "sources" is just a disguised form of inserting your own POV. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:31, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Scott McLemee is a journalist who wrote the article "Spotlight on the Liberty Lobby" for the fall 1994 issue of Covert Action Quarterly. My source for the new Wohlforth quote is not his website but his book "On the Edge: Political Cults Right and Left" coauthored with Dennis Tourish of the University of Aberdeen. AndyL 21:38, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bizarre Article

This article is loaded with trivia from the 1970s, when LaRouche was pretty much an insignificant figure. He didn't develope any real influence until he was released from prison in the 90s, and the article doesn't cover that period. How useful is that? ---


Actually, the limited electoral success of the LaRouche movement was in the 80s and ended with his imprisonment. He had some access as well with the Reagan administration but none to succeeding administrations. Saying that "he didn't develop any real influence until he was released from prison" is an inaccurate statement. As for "trivia" from the 1970s I suppose it might be convenient from LaRouche's standpoint not to mention anything that happened prior to around 1980 (and indeed, his official biography on LaRouche sponsored websites pretty much ignores his days as a "leftist" and the transition to his current views) but this is not an official biography and his history is germane. By the way, in future please log in when you make edits. Making signficiant edits while not logged in is a violation of wikietiquette. AndyL 21:52, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't have a log-in, and Misplaced Pages does not require me to have one -- it just says that it brings "many benefits." If you have a bone to pick with me, e-mail me at peter_abelard@ausi.com. Plus, it wasn't until the 90s that LaRouche was elected to the Universal Ecological Academy of Moscow (BTW, in Russia "ecological" doesn't mean a bunch of greenies), and made an honorary citizen of Sao Paolo.

LaRouche had more influence in the Clinton administration than with Reagan. You won't find it in the media, but it's true. You don't measure LaRouche's influence by electoral results -- you measure it by the spread of his ideas. It's not like professional sports with a scoreboard. And the most important development in the history of the LaRouche movement is the beginning of the LaRouche youth movement about four years ago. LaRouche never gets any real media coverage, he relies on face-to-face discussions and distribution of literature, and that is going on now on a much wider scale than ever before. The real history of the LaRouche movement is just beginning. --C Colden 04:28, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Free School courses

Herschel, LaRouche's explanation for giving courses in Marxist economics is from his autobiography. AndyL 02:45, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your point being?--Herschelkrustofsky 13:29, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A google reveals five references to the "Universal Ecological Academy of Moscow", all at LaRouche websites. Conclusion: like the Eurasian Landbridge, it is a LaRouche fantasy. Adam 04:55, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You seem to have confused "googling" with "research."--Herschelkrustofsky 13:29, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Fot telling whether an organisation is currently in existence or a figment of your imagination it is actually quite effective, as was shown with the Eurasian Landbridge. Adam 13:41, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Claims made in the article

There are many claims made in the article with no evidence. For example, the claim that LaRouche opposed abortion. See Weed Harper 14:55, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche doesn't answer the question. He states he opposes the "pro-life movement" but doesnt' give his views on abortion. Perhaps you can explain the "anti-Mathusian" position of the organization he founded, the "Club of Life". What are its views on abortion?AndyL 15:01, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

He states that he opposes single issue politics. He has no view on abortion per se. Besides, you put it in the article to make it look like LaRouche was part of the pro-life movement. That is untrue.Weed Harper 15:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What does "Club of Life" do? What is their position on abortion? Do they favour restrictions on it or are they against restrictions?AndyL 15:27, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Abortion Policy:
He received a 10% score from Planned Parenthood and a 75% from the National Right to Life Committee.
13. ABORTION POLICY:
  • National Right to Life Committee
Pro-life in every way (against euthanasia, capital punishment, etc).

AndyL 15:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Coming over from Requests for Comment

Hi. I have come over here from Misplaced Pages:Requests for Comment after someone posted there links to two old versions of this article and asked for votes of preference between the two. I don't see any reference to this request or to any voting here on this talk page, and the two versions have apparently been superseded by more recent versions. Is there any current interest in garnering outside voters for these two versions, or can the voting request be removed from the Requests for Comment page? --Gary D 08:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Protected

Sorry I didn't get the protection notice and stuff done last night, my connection went belly-up just as I clicked "protect". Please try to hash out the arguments here instead of in the article history. silsor 15:37, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

May I play the devil's advocate?

I've been looking at these talk pages, and two things jump out at me. First, that the participants are mostly highly polarized pro- or anti-LaRouche, and second, that virtually every participant has encountered LaRouche activists first hand on the street.

LaRouche is a revolutionary, and everything he says is a challenge to the status quo, whether in politics, science, or art. The news media defend the status quo, and Misplaced Pages is part of the news media (it seems that you can put any opinion you like in a Misplaced Pages article as long as it has appeared in other media.) I doubt that any person has ever supported LaRouche based on media coverage -- they support LaRouche because they have read his pamphlets first hand.

My suggestion to Herschel and Weed is the following: why not stop making a fuss, and let Adam, Andy, 172 and Bcorr make the article just as outlandish and over-the-top as they like? People will compare it to LaRouche's literature, and see that it is completely fake, and get angry, and be more likely to support LaRouche. Don't you think that will serve your purpose better than if the article is a lukewarmish "consensus" article? --C Colden 04:22, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh no, C Colden, It's not. The point of Misplaced Pages is to take NO STANCE on anything. See: NPOV. WhisperToMe 02:32, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article in question is light years away from NPOV, and doesn't seem to be getting perceptibly closer. --Herschelkrustofsky 06:08, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

To say that LaRouche's influence is measured by his spread of ideas, and not anything factual like stats or votes, is silly since there are no ideas of LaRouche's which are original which deal directly in politics. Now LaRouche can tie in Gauss' 1799 thesis on algebra to the allegedly Malthusian Club of Rome, and if you are familiar with esoteric knowledge and masonic lodges and Judaism in 15th through 19th century England, and use the David VanIcke and Alester Crowley school of research, then pow, it all makes sense. The SDI was not proposed by LaRouche. It was not his idea. Reforming Bretton-Woods, also not his idea. What we are dealing with here on wiki on the LaRouche page are the protests of his minions. Their complaints have resulted in a better NPOV article, and their input is welcome no doubt. Now, the rest of this is my POV . . . Its clear to people familiar with history-not-as-told-by-LaRouche that LLR was trying to follow a path similar to that of Mussolini. Of course Mussolini had far more respect and influence among the mainstream Italian Left before going on to support WWI and starting the right wing squadre Fascisti. Also, Mussolini was far younger and more charismatic and had a better approximation of the situation on the ground. The begining of the economic downturn which was signified by the Club of Rome's pronouncements and the Oil crises led LaRouche to think that the next great depression was fast on its way and that history would allow for the rise of new corporatist leader. The similarities in all fronts are stunning. The cult mind will filter out any information which the mind's indicators sense my shake the foundations of loyalty to the cult, so herchel and weedy and you guys, I'm not trying to change your minds. Capone 20:43, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Chaim, you got yourself a log-on! And how's your Dad? 172.193.16.95 21:10, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think Herschel is guilty of POVness too. This is why the Arbitrators are trying to determine who is "right". *groan* WhisperToMe 00:26, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, no. The arbitration committee made it clear that they had no intention of determining who is "right." They would only rule on issues of Wikiquette, and not on the content of the article. Also, they appear to be closing the case. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:40, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Either someone should protect this article again or some action should be taken against those who are reverting to a totally POV version. I've already used up my three reverts and now the article is stuck on the LaRouchite version until someone else comes along. Everyking 23:44, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Which version do you consider totally POV? Weed Harper 00:22, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dispute tags

Removing dispute tags is vandalism. If you remove a dispute tag when a dispute has not been resolved (And if you find your edits being generally reverted, it's a good sign the dispute has not been resolved), you are vandalizing the page, and you will find the entirety of your edit reverted. Furthermore, if you repeatedly remove dispute tags, you will find yourself blocked from editing.

This page has been spending far too much time protected, and the people who are causing its continual protection are either going to stop disrupting the page or stop editing Misplaced Pages entirely. The choice is theirs. Snowspinner 16:11, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Deletion of information

Large scale deletion of information - also vandalism, unless said information is copyvio or disprovable through some objective source. looking at the talk page, I don't see anything indicating either of those things to be true. Snowspinner 18:51, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Snowspinner, the Adam and Andy version of the article was so riddled with POV that I think the decision to replace it with a new article is an appropriate one. I provided a substantial list of factual errors in their version, and also enumerated the inappropriate insertions of personal opinions and theories -- the authors of those opinions and theories have consistently refused to discuss them on the talk pages. If you think that writing a new article represents vandalistic "deletion of information", then it is valid to raise that question as well with respect to Adam's "deletion" of the previous article back in June. I approved of Sam Spade's efforts to reconcile the various versions, but his efforts were thwarted when Adam and Andy simply deleted anything that didn't conform to their rather egregious POV. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:03, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please try to correct the existing article instead of throwing out all of the work. Snowspinner 03:09, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner, please look at the history of the article during the last two weeks of August. You will see that Herschel and I made numerous attempts to do precisely what you are suggesting. Each time, either Andy, Adam, Bccor or John_Kenney would simply revert without participating on the talk page. This is very frustrating and it seems to me to be poor wikiquette. Weed Harper 14:46, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would say that poor wikiquette is repeatedly reverting to a much shorter, blatantly POV, and obviously unacceptable version of the article. Everyking 15:06, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I see the Herschel list of objections. What I don't see is any evidence supporting his claims. Since I tend to think of the more complete article as the default option, how about for any information you want to delete from the article, you provide, on the talk page, a citation. So as not to become overwhelming, let's limit ourselves to, say, five pieces of information at a time, and when we've settled those, we'll move on to the next five? Pick five things that are erroneous about the long version of the article, list them below, and then provide a source from which you are getting your information that it's wrong. Then Adam, Bcorr, et al can respond, and we can move through them calmly and systematically. Snowspinner 15:45, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
Excuse me, but isn't the person who inserts an allegation into the article supposed to be the one that can provide a citation to back it up? Since this edit conflict has become like a trial, I think "innocent until proven guilty" should be the standard. Besides, many of Herschel's objections are to personal opinions or theories inserted by anti-LaRouche activists. Weed Harper 21:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Current Five Facts

OK, to try to facilitate this process, I'm making this section. It will have, as the name suggests, five subsections, each for specific facts that are disputed in this article. If you desire the removal of a fact from this article because it is inaccurate, please use one of the five sections to list it, along with some citation. If you believe the citation offered is flawed, respond with a reason. We'll try to figure out what needs to be included, what needs to be removed, and what needs to be included with a note that there is disagreement on whether this is true. Snowspinner 21:01, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to note that most of my objections to this article (at this point) are to violations of NPOV, which are massive and pervasive; the writing by Adam in particular has an intensely propagandistic quality, and the article is written, not as an encyclopedia article, but as an essay that attempts to prove various theories supported by Adam and Andy. For example, "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." This involves POV speculation on Adam's part, attributing to LaRouche some sort of conspiracy to bring waves of new people into the Democratic Party (I believe this is what used to be called a "voter registration drive.") In fact, what LaRouche was actually doing is promoting his agenda to people who were already Democrats.

Fact One

"From left to right" -- this is a characterization of LaRouche that was agreed upon by LaRouche's opponents, but has no basis in fact. LaRouche was a leftist in the 50s and 60s, and in the 70s he shifted to being an FDR-style Democrat. A few points of evidence: LaRouche actively supported debt moratoria for the Third World. "In August 1976, Fred Wills, then Foreign and Justice Minister of Guyana, and an ally of Lyndon LaRouche, brought up a resolution for a debt moratorium at the Non-Aligned Movement summit in Colombo, Sri Lanka, reiterating his call before the UN General Assembly shortly thereafter." LaRouche made a similar campaign against the harsh austerity demands of New York City's creditor banks, which victimized the poor and minority communities of that city, and he advised Mexican President Lopez Portillo in 1982 to declare a debt moratorium (which was done). In the early '80s, LaRouche and his organization opposed the Reagan administration's decision to side with the U.K. in the Malvinas war, and opposed as well the Reagan policy of arming the Nicaraguan Contras. In 1984, LaRouche formed a close friendship and working relationship with Amelia Boynton Robinson, an important leader of the 1960s American Civil Rights Movement, who became Vice Chairman of the LaRouche-affiliated Schiller Institute. Similarly, LaRouche's 1988 candidacy featured, as his running mate, James Bevel.

I'm having no trouble finding sources that accuse LaRouche of fascism, and suggest that he is far-right wing. It looks to me, particularly looking at the political philosophy page (And I'm speaking here of your preferred version, not the Adam/Andy version) that LaRouche's precise classification along the political spectrum is yet another area of debate regarding him. Could the article perhaps be revised to reflect his changing positions in a way that does not use the "left/right" distinction at all, and then include a paragraph somewhere that describes the controversy on labeling him as left or right wing? Snowspinner 22:54, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
There are several issues involved here. First, there is no question that LaRouche did change in the seventies, from being a quasi-Marxist to embracing the American System (economics). Adam and Andy have attempted to suppress any discussion of the American System angle, either reverting references to it, or disparaging it as a school of thought. An honest article is going to have to address it.
Secondly, and I think that this is central to the controversy, there are essentially two versions of LaRouche's views: the one he espouses (and his writings are very prolific, leaving no doubt as to where he stands) -- and the the other being the characterization that was agreed upon back in the 80s by the John Train Salon, which version Adam and Andy assert is the correct one. This is a peculiar state of affairs, which the article should attempt to clarify for the reader. If your research on LaRouche consists of Googling the English language internet, any reference to LaRouche will tend to fall into one of these two irreconcilable categories. You might come away with the impression that there are actually two quite different political activists, both named Lyndon LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, I imagine you will get exactly that phenomenon. The article, then, needs to reflect both of these LaRouches, and it needs to do it without value judgment on which portrayal is more accurate. Snowspinner 22:44, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I propose "Post-Marxist Policies" as a neutral title for this section, which is descriptive rather than trying to advance a dubious POV theory. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:42, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fact Two

"Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." If the expression "Eurasian Land-bridge" has ever been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, it was certainly not by anyone connected to LaRouche. The Asian Highway is, as the name suggests, a highway. LaRouche's proposal involves primarily rail projects, with the emphasis on high-speed (and preferably mag-lev) rail, combined with other forms of infrastructure such as oil and natural gas pipelines, water management, and fiber-optic cables, to form what LaRouche calls "Development Corridors." LaRouche's proposal does not resemble, nor could it be responsibly confused with, any other.

If you look in the talk archives you'll see that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" question was discussed extensively. To be frank there is no independent evidence that such a project as described by the LaRouchites exists. Herschel produced a number of articles as evidence but they did not stand up to scrutiny. From time to time several LaRouche sources claim that hte "Eurasian Land-Bridge" is also known as the "New Silk Road". In fact, this is the nickname for the Asian Highway.Herschel is yet to respond to my detailed criticisms, I'll dig them up again if he wants to revive this issue.AndyL 20:10, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Are you claiming that LaRouche never made such a proposal? I have a 300 page report on his proposal that is about 12 years old, and I know of two conferences that were held, in Russia and Egypt, to discuss his proposal. I had to re-write the Eurasian Land-Bridge article because you deleted it, and according to Snowspinner, that is vandalism. I linked the article to reports on both conferences. Weed Harper 21:44, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Are you claiming that LaRouche never made such a proposal?

No. I'm saying that other than the Asian Highway (which was proposed in the 1950s) there is no independent evidence that this project exists. There is also a lot of evidence that the "New Silk Road" is the nickname of the Asian Highway. AndyL 22:20, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fine -- don't call it a project, call it a proposal. But stop trying to confuse "Eurasian Land-Bridge" with the "Asian Highway"-- no one else confuses the two, and your attempt to equate them is deceitful. --Herschelkrustofsky 23:51, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Since you are fond of Googling, you may try "Eurasian Land-Bridge""Asian Highway"". Each reference in the Malaysian, Indian and Chinese press considers them as entirely separate and distinct proposals, with the Land-Bridge being the larger and more ambitious of the two. The only article that equates the two is, of course, your bogus Misplaced Pages article. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:05, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You are either misreading or misstating your evidence. The articles you refer to, in fact, see the Asian Highway as *part of* the European LandBridge rather than as "entirely seperate and distinct proposals".

Asia Times: "The Asian Highway Project is expected to link Singapore with New Delhi via ... would ultimately form part of the more ambitious Eurasian Land Bridge spanning the ..."

The Hindu: "in particular the East-West corridor project and the Trans-Asian Highway. ... project, once completed, might be linked to the Eurasian ``land bridge ..." AndyL 04:00, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That is indeed what the articles say. And if the Asian Highway would ultimately form part of the more ambitious Eurasian Land Bridge proposal, then your substituted article was incorrect and misleading by saying that the Eurasian Land Bridge was simply a different name for the Asian Highway. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:32, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fact Three

"By the 1980s, LaRouche had became a strong advocate of nuclear power and what later became the Strategic Defense Initiative, after Reagan adopted it." This formulation distorts history in order to support Adam's and Andy's theory that LaRouche alters his politics in order to jump on various bandwagons. In fact, LaRouche was a strong supporter of nuclear power no later than 1974 , and the policy that became (in 1983) the Strategic Defense Initiative, was advocated by LaRouche in 1977 .

Is there somewhere I could get abstracts for the Campaigner articles in that ToC? Also, are those LaRouche penned articles, or merely articles that appeared in a LaRouche-edited journal? As for the SDI, do you have anything that goes back to 1977, instead of LaRouche saying in 2000 that he was a supporter in 1977? Snowspinner 20:52, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
You may download the entire Campaigner as a .pdf file here. As to whether LaRouche wrote all the articles, I think one area that is not in dispute, is that material published by LaRouche's organization generally does reflect his personal views, although he relies on his associates for a lot of original research, which he then incorporates into his policy overview. The article at this link includes a photostat of the cover of the pamphlet, "Sputnik of the Seventies," that was published in 1977 -- I don't think it's available on the web, but for what it's worth, I read it back when it came out. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:45, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Am I correct, however, that none of the Campaigner articles are by LaRouche in that issue? And, similarly, the Sputnik pamphlet appears to be by the US Labor Party, assited by LaRouche. Which is n ot to say that LaRouche didn't hold those views - just that the evidence doesn't seem a slam-dunk to me. Perhaps we could insert a statement to the effect of "LaRouche and his supporters point to X and Y (The Campaigner article and the pamphlet) as evidence, however, that LaRouche held these views well before Reagan's election." Snowspinner 14:50, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Fact Four

"LaRouche's supporters do not believe that he was imprisoned because of a criminal wrongdoing. Instead, they maintain that a vast, worldwide conspiracy framed him, and that this conspiracy has attempted to execute him at least three times." LaRouche's supporters do not maintain that a "vast, worldwide conspiracy" framed him; they maintain that it was a small and very specific group of people who framed him, which group includes the primary sources that Adam and Andy used for their version of the article . The frequent attempt to put words in LaRouche's mouth about various "conspiracies" is in fact an effort to support Adam's own "conspiracy theories" about LaRouche.

Your link itself refers to "massive government-private sector effort to "Get LaRouche."", which suggests that it is not a "small and very specific" group. That said, I suspect a more moderate wording could be agreed upon by both parties. As a first stab, I propose "Instead, they argue that a massive effort on the part of the US government and several private institutions existed to discredit and frame LaRouche." Thoughts? Snowspinner 22:49, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I think that the article should report that the meetings took place, name the participants, and let the reader draw his own conclusions. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:47, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Though I suspect I know the answer to this, would Adam, Andy, or someone else on the anti-LaRouche side like to tell me if it is universally agreed upon that these meetings took place? Snowspinner 14:51, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I suspect these "meetings" were actually interviews which the LaRouchites have twisted into some sort of conspiracyAndyL 20:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fact Five

There are 3 unattributed references to "nervous breakdowns", two allegedly suffered by LaRouche, one by Chris White. I had never seen any discussion of these alleged events, and I think documentation is in order.

A quick google found me , which suggests that some people who were leaving the LaRouche organization in 1973 claimed LaRouche was suffering a nervous breakdown. The source seems very POV, but that's probably going to be the norm. Can all parties agree to some wording that points out that there are allegations of a breakdown during this period? Snowspinner 20:55, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Chip Berlet is possibly the most hysterical anti-LaRouche source, and nothing he says should be simply presented as fact. It should be attributed to him. It seems that the article you found is the source for much of Adam and Andy's "research." Weed Harper 00:17, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Weed's objection to anonymous sources, and I also think Weed has a point about the Ramsey Clark quote: Andy insisted that Clark could not be quoted in the article without a disclaimer, saying that some people consider Clark a whack-job (I am paraphrasing.) If this standard applies to the former Attorney General of the United States, it must certainly apply as well to Dennis King, Chip Berlet, and the other assorted weirdos who are cited as authorities throughout the article. I think that the appropriate course of action were to create a section called "Critics of LaRouche", where there would be some discussion of just who these critics are, followed by a selection of their opinions about LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:15, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Again, though, this can be dealt with without removing the information - the insertion of a sentence along the lines of "Supporters of LaRouche dismiss these accusations as the work of disenfranchised former associates of LaRouche with an axe to grind." Or something of similar tone. My preference, and I think the preference that's more workable for a biographical article, would be for the article to present the claims of both sides in one section together, with the other side's responses being mentioned as relevent, so that the entire article reads in a way that people get both sides of this debate as they go. Looking around a bit, regardless of its accuracy, the claim that LaRouche is a fascist (Which is a label that people tend to use to describe the extreme right) is a common one. Regardless of its accuracy, then, that needs to be addressed, and it should be addressed, I would think, throughout the article.
To put it another way, this claim (I haven't really gone looking at the other three yet - later today, I will) seems to me to be debated. That is, it is not clear-cut, and it's a POV assertion to say that LaRouche did or did not have a nervous breakdown in 1973. It's unknown and disputed. Which means this needs to be reflected in his biography. If the evidence against the breakdown really is that sketchy, then surely, when both pieces of evidence are presented side by side, an intelligent reader will identify that. Snowspinner 22:43, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
When dealing with anonymous sources that are alleged by Chip Berlet to exist, I think it will be necessary to talk a bit about Chip Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:50, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
We could readily cast the sentence to make clear that the allegations are made by Berlet, with a link to his article. Snowspinner 14:59, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
There was also a LaRouche speech made in the early 1970s where he refers to events twenty years earlier which fit the definition of "nervous breakdown"AndyL 20:10, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd be interested in knowing whether he used the term, "nervous breakdown." If not, what term did he use? Do you have the text of the speech, and if not, who is alleging that it was made? --Herschelkrustofsky 21:04, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I never said he used the term "nervous breakdown" - I said that the events he describes fit the definition.

In his speech before the NCLC National Committee Plenum mandating Operation Mop-Up (see below) in the spring of 1973, Marcus gave a more detailed account of his 1952 ordeal.  According to this account, he went through a harrowing bout of intense introspection, which involved "stripping away all the layers of my persona, like an onion.  If you take this far enough, you get to the point where you become terrified that there's nothing inside all the peelings-that you're a nobody.  This put me in a suicidal state.  It was only my tremendous ego-strength, which my parents had provided me, that saved me from suicide." AndyL 22:24, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Then you are using a bit too much "poetic license," which is a problem all over the article. The same goes for the Chris White episode. I have read an account of that -- he said he was drugged. That is not "an event that fits the description of a nervous breakdown." Weed Harper 00:12, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If Andy wants to coin the phrase, and then attribute it to "some LaRouche observers," he should cite one observer other than himself. ---01:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Immediate Reversion

In my continued efforts to bring some sort of resolution to this dispute, the following things, if done by anyone, will result in their edits being reverted. More to come as a need for them is discovered.

  1. Misleading edit summaries. If you say "Added information on X" and happen to fail to mention that you also deleted three sections, you will be reverted.
  2. Deletion of information not justified by specific evidence provided on the talk page.
  3. Removal of the dispute tag (Which, it should be noted, will also be met with a 24 hour vandalism block)

Please try to be civil and to discuss things with one another. As I've said above, I'm willing to provide a mediator in trying to sort out the claims of factual inaccuracy here. I encourage those who are trying to remove information from this article to accompany such removals with specific citations as described in the sections above. Snowspinner 21:12, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

There are basically two competing versions of the article now. I am editing the one that I consider to be more in keeping with NPOV. Everytime someone reverts to the other one, they are deleting information that I and others have added, so it's a two way street. The precedent for writing a new article was created by Adam in June, and there is no basis for saying that one or the other version takes precedence, except to say, as I do, that the one I am editing is more NPOV. I am certainly in favor of being civil and discussing things-- Herschel went to a lot of trouble to prepare a list of specific objections to the other version, but the authors seem to feel no need to respond. Weed Harper 21:07, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Herschel's list makes an excellent starting point, I agree, but it lacks specific citation - at the moment, it's a "He said she said" situation. If you want information removed, please give some citation that shows why the information is false. So, for instance, in the Club of Life section, the claim is that the Club of Live was created to oppose LaRouche. Please provide a citation of this.
In any case, "two competing versions of the article" is not acceptable. Since the one that you seem not to favor is the one with more information, I am taking that as the starting point here.
Note also that it is not impossible to merge the two "competing" articles. If no consensus is reached on the Club of Life section, with evidence being found by both sides, it can be mentioned in a way that acknowledges this controversy. That is to say, inclusion and exclusion are not the only options - moderated phrasing is possible, and is probably going to be a useful avenue for compromise. Snowspinner 21:12, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

One other thing. Perhaps, if one of the pro-LaRouche side's major points is that there are things missing from the anti-LaRouche side's accounting, the solution would be to add them into that one? If that were done, leading to one article instead of two that constantly change places, I think it would be a good thing. (And, of course, if the pro-LaRouche side is inserting false information, the anti-LaRouche side would be perfectly justified in listing it here for discussion. Snowspinner 21:16, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Herschel's List Again?

Perhaps, Snowspinner, you have found that Herschel's list is in the archives and was answered point by point. Weedharper and Herschel only contend that the challenges went unanswered, but this is a contention that they will make so long as your evaluation differs from their own. I would be less than excited if these were to be revisited again, but its fine by me if it satisfies your own curiousity. On the 5 points . . .

Point 1.) LaRouche is a Rightist (though radical and not conservative). Left and Right have different meanings but primarily refer to the C.A of late 18th Century France. That LaRouche is a rightist can be easily traced to his reading of Plato's Republic and other dialogues, in which LaRouche agrees with Plato's version of Socrates that a leader of men is to men what a horse trainer is to horses, and that a leader of men is just by virtue of the fact that he is the leader of men. As a horse trainer trains, and not mis-trains horses (or he is not acting in his role as a horse-trainer)a leader leads and not mis-leads men. There can be no bad leader of men as when an error is committed, he is not acting in his capacity as a leader. Now, it is a matter of fact, of the agreed upon historical record, that LaRouche, as Lyn Marcus, was a radical left-Communist of the Cannonite-Trotskyist variety. This would have made him a leftist. LaRouche and LaRouche's followers today state clearly that they are NOT leftists or on the left. They claim to be 'above' or 'beyond' mere 'false' categories of left and right. As rightists, monarchists in this historical case, they support the French Crown against the French Revolution, hardly a position of the political left who hold the French revolution as something of a victory (though short lived) of democracy and left forces and ideals. They reject the category of left and right as a synarchist construct of the French Revolution and the British Bankers and money changers (mostly Jews like the Rothschilds, Gugenheims)who conspired against the French Crown for British plunder. So they reject the term 'right' as it is just a syncharcist construct and inversion of 'left' from the French Revolution which they staunchly oppose (from the monarchist perspective). The Argentine British conflict over the Falkans exposes the rightist and Imperial ambitions/justifications of LaRouche on international affairs. They oppose the British on the grounds that Britain has been taken over by wealthy families of International Bankers with direct ties to Satanic cabals and secretive Masonic tyrants. See esoteric. They oppose Britain on this issue on the basis of the Monroe Doctrine, hardly a leftist doctrine, which holds that Latin America is the U.Ss backyard and turf, an extension of Manifest Destiny, and that investment and development opportunities are the sole domain of U.S productive firms. The philosophical underpinnings and structural historical form of the LaRouche movement IMO is more analogous to National Socialism and Fascism, which also claimed to be beyond of outside of the realm of left and right. Like Mussolini, LaRouche left the socialist groupings and ideological framework of the left which he had developed from, and began to advocate a mish-mash of left-right policies, but based upon the right insofar as their being a mass-populist movement which is controlled and lead by a hierarchical structure which is supported by and advocates the so-called salvation of the Industrialist class (capitalists)and landowners as against the alleged social corruption by the International Banking class (userers, financiers)against the interests of the modern Nation State, as explicated in the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, whose interest claims to be the general public weal of a particular nation state. See nationalism. Of course, LaRouche's rightism can also be deduced and reasoned from his opposition to the schools of physical and cultural anthropology and sociology. LaRouche supports teaching that God created everything, and that humans and apes could not have developed from a common ancestor.

Point 2.) There was some confusion on this discussion about the so-called Eurasian Landbridge and the Asian Highway. The Asian Highway is an actual project being undertaken and built by the nations involved. The Eurasian Landbridge is nothing more than a proposal put forward by LaRouche which follows a similar geography. That there is an Asian Highway being built is used by LaRouchians as proof that LaRouche's ideas are "everywhere" being put into practice. Thus LaRouchians in conversational 'dialogues' with people, the Asian Highway can be used through inductive or Platonic reasoning to conclude that the Eurasian Landbridge is an idea that world leaders agree with LaRouche about since they are building the Asian Highway. In fact, there is no evidence that the Asian Highway is being built directly or indirectly on LaRouche's 'advice' that there be a Eurasian Landbridge built.

Point 3.) You will find no references in 1977 by LaRouche, and not until the Reagan administration itself came out with the SDI proposal, of any technology or proposal that specifically called for the use of missiles or lasers or satelites, or generally called for a technology which would minimize or eliminate the destructive capacity of a Soviet first strike. We cannot find proof that LaRouche did 'not' claim or propose something like the SDI prior to the 1981-83 period since we cannot 'find' something which is 'not there'.

Point 4.) This is meaningless nonsense. Of course LaRouche named who 'framed' him in numerous articles and texts, and this sense, it was a small group of people. But in numerous other texts, these same people are included as part of or dupes of a Synarchist International Satanic Banking Cabal.

Point 5.) If there is substantial evidence that LaRouche had a nervous breakdown, then it should be included. If not, then not. I realize that a theory of how LaRouche arrived at his present world view can be developed from possible evidence of his nervous breakdown (since Mussolini had a similar nervous breakdown around WWI and formed the journal 'Utopia' which stripped him down to only his Ego and his power to will), but it is not necessarily telling of anything.

Let me add something else to this discussion. LaRouche's theories, comments, analysis, writings etc., are nowhere held to the same scrutiny within the LaRouche produced propaganda as criticisms of it are on this forum. Therefor, those attempting to compose an accurate account of LaRouche are at a disadvantage when compared to the mass of unsubstantiated LaRouchite claims (like that he invented SDI, for instance)that have to be sifted through. --Capone 23:05, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand my efforts here. I am not interested in coming to some kind of absolute knowledge of truth here. That would be original research. If there are things in the article which are easily proven false, and which no one can provide any evidence in favor of, they should be cut. Largely, though, I expect the middle ground that will be reached on these points is that both sides will compromise on a version that includes both points of view instead of trying to make the move towards some absolute truth on a controversial issue, which is doomed to be a POV endeavor. Snowspinner 23:23, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

I did not even think to assume what your efforts were or weren't here. Common sense could tell you that nothing that I wrote is the product of original research other than when I wrote later the part 'IMO'. All of my comments were intended for the discussion and weren't in any way meant as a proposal for what should be written on the page. Absolute truth isn't the aim of this or any other article, but the hope is that certain truths can be found within it. You proposed a revisiting of Herchel's list which we agree is largely unsourced. I was presenting one of the angles for the view you keep finding on search engines. The five points were responded to by someone who gave five arguments which were easily proven false, so I'd rather bring this here now before those arguments get incorporated into the article, by then which I would have to be in favor of them being cut on the basis they were easily proven false. An NPOV way of writing the article would be simply to include reasonable pro-LaRouche rebutals to those statements that were generally agreed on by independant analysts or biographers on LaRouche. A proviso of these rebutals is that they be easily verifable so as to not engender the necessity of an obvious rebutal to that rebutal ad infinitum. --Capone 01:54, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Images

I think the image that was replaced should be added back, BUT it should be placed in the article with the new pic. WhisperToMe 05:15, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC) Oh, and I found one on Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche! WhisperToMe 05:17, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

File:Lyndon LaRouche.gif
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.

I think this is a better picture for this article. Weed Harper 00:43, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Really? I hate the lighting. :( Snowspinner 03:38, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Links

I think the number of links is excessive. Weed Harper 06:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I found that they are mostly sub-pages of a few basic sites, and I propose paring it down to this:

LaRouche sponsored sites

Critics of LaRouche

Interesting that you would remove all the "Criticisms by former colleagues" despite the fact that they are not subpages of other sites already listed. AndyL 13:05, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That was unintentional. Weed Harper 00:08, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Was your removal of newspaper articles not written by Mintz also unintentional? What about your removal of links to Chip Berlet or the Rick Ross Institute's actual articles in favour of biographies of the authors? I've replaced your attempt at obscuring critical links with something more straightforward.I've replaced your attempt to replace Ross and Berlet's criticsms of LaRouche with sites about Ross and Berlet and created these two links:

Weed also removed a lot of LaRouche site links, so I don't think he was being unfair. Note that the Temple of the Screaming Electron (TOTSE) site that you linked is just a reprint from the Chip Berlet sites. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:14, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reversion

While I suspect I agree with some of your objections to the many changes made by Weed Harper, I'm curious why you reverted everything. Attribution of specific sources instead of "some people," for instance, seems to me a very good change. Similarly, removing two paragraphs that could have easily been NPOVed doesn't really make sense to me.

I think that this page is highly relevant: Misplaced Pages:Cite_your_sources --Herschelkrustofsky 20:35, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As loathsome as you find the POV offered by LaRouche and his supporters, it still needs to be included and included fairly. Temper the language, offer responses, whatever, but please stop removing it. Snowspinner 16:46, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

I suggest that a test page be set up for the LaRouche supporters to draft their proposals for reforms and that we then discuss the proposed changes (inviting the rest of the community to respond). These piecemeal changes and reversions are getting us nowhere. AndyL 17:09, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I suspect that both sides are not going to draft versions remotely acceptable to the other, and that the way out is through a collaborative effort. That is, I think more will get done if both sides work on the other side's additions. It's just that, well, I think instead of reverting the other side's additions, you should NPOV the language and add rebuttal information. Snowspinner 17:20, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

I think the only way to have a collaborative effort is to do it on a draft page. Otherwise we just have a war of attrition. AndyL 18:22, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It would appear to be a rather one-sided war, because as far as I can see, both Weed and myself are cooperating fully with Snowspinner's mediation efforts. I think that most people would see it as a sign of maturity if you and Adam would do the same. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:24, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, there already is a Lyndon LaRouche/draft, perhaps someone could update that page to make it a current proposal?AndyL 12:46, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think everyone should read this: NPOV#A_consequence:_writing_for_the_enemy. --172.192.142.248 14:11, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

An NPOV caption for this picture

User:Adam Carr has a picture of himself reading some LaRouche-related paper on his talk page.

I was wondering if we could NPOV the caption and place it in a LaRouche-related article. Maybe something like: "A picture of a man reading a paper written by Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche's political views are widely debated between people." WhisperToMe 20:24, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a very good idea. I am not "a man", I am a well-known participant in this debate. And I am not reading the material, I am holding it up to the camera so that people can see its authenticity, as part of my ongoing effort to get Herschelkrustofsky to admit that LaRouche is (or was) a Holocaust denier. (And things are debated among people, not between them.) Adam 01:45, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

On Misplaced Pages, I do not think that Misplaced Pages users should identify themselves in pictures posted in the main article space.I just don't think in most cases that it is appropriate to identify a Misplaced Pages user like that in a regular Misplaced Pages article. For example: User:JoeM (Who is now banned) tried to do that when I found a picture of two teenagers after I used it in an article related to Osama bin Laden; he claimed he was one of the kids in the picture. His edits were reverted, and the boys in the picture are "anonymous".

By the way, if you wanna challenge Herschel's views, please do that on Usenet/e-amil/whatever. WhisperToMe 02:29, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why should that be necessary? I'd like to have out in the open. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:09, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is NOT a discussion forum (barring talk about Misplaced Pages) - See: Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not - Misplaced Pages is not a ground for advocacy groups/people. WhisperToMe 22:58, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Huh? The picture is not in the article. It clearly should not be in the article. john k 02:56, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Draft page

I would be up for protecting this article and moving edits to a draft page if people want to. I think, though, that the draft page should have some ground rules in place. The one I'd like, personally, is an understanding that there will be no reverting. I am sure that this will lead to some difficult situations, when people make edits that other people think are really bad, but I think it's important, in this situation, to handle this through means other than reverts. Snowspinner 02:49, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Why not handle the regular article(s) through means other than reverts? They are both considerably closer to some sort of NPOV standard, than they were before you began mediating. Perhaps you and WhisperToMe might elaborate on the benefits of the draft page approach. --Herschelkrustofsky 02:59, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BTW, WhisperToMe, I note that you have been editing Lyndon LaRouche/draft -- I don't think that page is very relevant anymore, since there are now three articles instead of one (Lyndon LaRouche, Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, and United States v. LaRouche.) --Herschelkrustofsky 03:13, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

POV In First Paragraph

At the end of the first paragraph, it states that LaRouche has never garnered significant electoral support. I think the term 'significant' is POV since people both for and against LaRouche could consider any support as significant of something. Instead, I would like to propose that this word be replaced with an actual figure, and let readers decide for themselves how significant (or even what it signifies) this number is. If there isn't a good number that can be found, then I would recommend that this part of the sentence simply be axed. Thanks for the feedback in advance. -Capone 23:32, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How about "Lyndon LaRouche has never received more than 1% of the vote"?AndyL 23:59, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is also true that he has never reveived more than 10% of the vote. We could put that too . . . but given that even 1% is about 1 million votes, and I don't think he's ever reveived that (perhaps in total if you add all his votes for every election he's run in since the middle 80's)perhaps we need an actual figure, or maybe we could put 'never more than .5%' or something? Capone 01:18, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

0.1% of the vote?AndyL 01:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, depends which vote you look at, the actual presidential vote in November or the various primary votes when he's run for the Democratic nomination. I doubt he ever received more than 0.1% of the vote in a November election but he may have done better in individual primaries for instance this list of Super Tuesday 2004 results has him at 1% in a few states. Apparently he won 21% of the vote in the Arkansas primary in 2000. AndyL 01:09, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So to do justice to this article, it would be good to include that in actual elections he seldom acheived more than .5%, in primaries he can sometimes get 1%, but that in at least one state's primary (arkansas) he garnered 21%. So long as we can back up this 21% claim and it dosen't come from a LaRouche source, or an incompetent journalist's reporting based solely on a LaRouche source. Capone 18:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Heads up

For folks that have an appetite for really overheated slanders of LHL, there will be one one week from today in the Washington Post. The rumor has it that it is being run at the personal request of Cheney, and it will be delirious enough to make even Berlet look kinda sedate. --172.194.10.72 13:25, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Snowspinner's mediation

I am informed that Snowspinner is on a Wikivacation, which is unfortunate, because I think he had a pronounced civilizing impact on the editing here. I would like to urge editors to stick to his guidelines: provide a clear an honest rationale for each edit, and do not revert multiple edits with a single misleading edit memo. The LaRouche-related pages have made a noticeable shift towards compliance with the NPOV guidelines, and while there is much work left to be done, I hope that all parties concerned recognize that there has been progress.

--Herschelkrustofsky 21:13, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I add one quotation, Weed removes two, I restore them, a numeric removes them, I restore them, you remove them. How does Snowspinner's guidelines justify your posse removing not only a quotation I've added but a second one that's been in the article for quite some time? The new quotation is justified as it provides a concise view on the subject of the paragraph, why LaRouche's politics shifted in the 1970s. The fact that LaRouchians don't like it does not justify its removal and your attempting to remove it AND an additional quotation on the basis of unspecified guidelines is specious. AndyL 22:12, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As far as I know, you are the only editor who has reverted masses of edits at one stroke, in the recent period. Other editors (based on what I glean from the history page) addressed one edit at a time. Some of the numerics did so without providing an explanation -- so my appeal regarding the Snowspinner guidelines is not addressed solely to you. As far as the quotations which I agree should be removed, that is a separate issue: see "crackpot theories" below. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:23, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Crackpot" theories

This is a biography page. I don't see any point including any more of Chip Berlet's theories than is absolutely necessary. If he has done some verifiable research that is germane, include it. As far as his speculations about what LaRouche may have been thinking or feeling at any given moment, that is unverifiable and incompetent, and propaganda to boot -- and lest we forget, the Misplaced Pages guidelines prohibit propaganda. The same applies to Wohlforth -- to assert that LaRouche is secretly in favor of a totalitarian dictatorship is just childish ranting, and not suitable for a Misplaced Pages article, unless it is an article on Wohlforth. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, as far as "explaining the shift in LaRouche's ideas" is concerned, the main explanation that I know of is the work of the late Allen Salisbury, an NCLC researcher who wrote the book entitled The Civil War and the American System. His research into the importance of Henry Carey (for example, Carey's debate by correspondence with Karl Marx,) Erasmus Peshine Smith, and others, was a big influence over LaRouche and the NCLC, and unleashed a major wave of other historical researches by Graham Lowry and others. If you would be so kind as to get your pals to unprotect the page, I would be happy to add something on this to the article. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:34, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wohlforth and Tourish write: "Marx's goal of abolishing capitalism was replaced by the model of a totalitarian state that directs an economy where ownership of the means of production is still largely in public hands. The corporations and their owners remain in place but have to take their orders from LaRouche."
LaRouche has never written or said anything that corresponds to this. 172.197.184.236 20:26, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Have you read Wohforth and Tourish's book?AndyL 22:21, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If they provide verifiable quotes from LaRouche to back their assertions, why don't you add them to the article? Then Wohforth and Tourish's remarks would take on the aspect of criticism, rather than being a crackpot theory. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:10, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Who says it's a "crackpot theory"? Certainly far less "crack pot" than much of the material coming from LaRouche. Certainly far less crackpot than claims that LaRouche's ex-wife's lover was drugged and brainwashed by the CIA and given the mission of assassinating LaRouche or that the World Wildlife Fund is currently leading us to war. Sorry Herschel but people living in cracked pots shouldn't throw stones. Why is it "crackpot" to think LaRouche had a nervous breakdown? Certainly his pronouncements both in the early 1970s and his description of what he went through in the early 1950s is consistent with everything we know about nervous breakdowns and a lot of the more bizarre things LaRouche has said and done is consistent with what we know about paranoid schizophrenic behavior. AndyL 16:01, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Let's review a few basics, Andy. This is an article about LaRouche. It should report on his theories -- in a neutral way. If his theories are bogus, the reader will draw the appropriate conclusions. Theories concocted by his opponents are not appropriate for an encyclopedia article on LaRouche. It is appropriate to report documented allegations against him by his more prominent critics, a category which may be debatable, but not all-embracing. Neither you nor Chip Berlet is a psychotherapist, so your speculations about LaRouche's unspoken and unverifiable thoughts and feelings are out of place (although they might fit in nicely at Chip Berlet, which is becoming quite zany.) Wohlforth and Tourish have an anti-LaRouche agenda, so when they allege that LaRouche is in favor of a totalitarian dictatorship, a view which runs contrary to his remarks on the record, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that they provide some verifiable evidence.

A few corrections on points where you appear to be "spinning" LaRouche's remarks: he actually said that the "forces behind the WWF" were leading the world to war, which presumably refers to the circles of its founders, Prince Philip of the UK and Prince Berhard of the Netherlands -- both of whom were Nazis as younger men, and who as older men possess considerable political and commercial power. From what I have heard, it was Chris White, not LaRouche, who claimed to be drugged and brainwashed, by MI-6, not the CIA.

As I indicated, I can provide a far more plausible -- and verifiable -- explanation of the shift away from Marxism, and you may certainly dig up any documentation you are able to, in order to rebut it. But we should get on with the editing. I don't really see why you called in the page protection this time.

--Herschelkrustofsky 15:17, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Theories concocted by his opponents are not appropriate for an encyclopedia article on LaRouche.

Setting aside the word "concocted" for a moment I don't see why theories by LaRouche's critics are inappropriate for an article on LaRouche. We aren't writing an authorised biography here. If you look at other articles on controversial figures you'll see comments and "theories" by their opponents are included in the article.

Neither you nor Chip Berlet is a psychotherapist, so your speculations about LaRouche's unspoken and unverifiable thoughts and feelings are out of place.

But Fred Newman *is* a psychotherapist and moreover was able to observe LaRouche personally and he too asserts that LaRouche had a nervous breakdown.AndyL 15:41, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No one as far as I can see has attempted to edit the reference to Fred Newman's opinion. Actually no one has attempted to remove the reference to Chip Berlet's opinion either. The summary of his views and link to his article have always been left alone. But why should we devote extensive space to quotes from a guy who has no more qualifications than I do? Remember, you deleted pro-LaRouche quotes from Norbert Brainin (who at least is world famous)-- you said that the article was "too long" for such quotes. And without any evidence the opinion of Wohlforth appears to be a lie. That's different than "criticism." Weed Harper 22:54, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I see no evidence that Wolhforth's satements are a lie.AndyL 01:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The statements contradict LaRouche's writings. Do you have any evidence that they are true? --64.30.208.48 01:10, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The fact that LaRouche's writings contradict others of LaRouche's writings tend to diminish his credibility when it comes to his own biography or his own explanations regarding his political views. AndyL 01:34, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Changing a mistaken policy is not the same as contradicting oneself, as John Kerry ably pointed out on Thursday night. --172.193.124.40 15:07, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Changing a policy is one thing. Changing your and your group's histroy is quite another. AndyL 18:34, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Andy, it would appear that you are dodging the question. Wohlforth is alleging that LaRouche supports a totalitarian dictatorship. Did LaRouche ever, in any way, shape, or form, express his support for a totalitarian dictatorship, or is this Wohlforth's little secret?

Also, let me remind you of the position you argued with respect to Frankfurt School: you didn't claim that LaRouche was not a critic of the Frankfurt school -- you said he was not a major critic, and you insisted that his rather voluminous criticism of the Frankfurt School not even appear in the External links. In this case, I don't object to two, yes, two quotes from Wohlforth, by any account a rather obscure critic, and I don't object to a link to his web article. I think that the third quote is 1) an unsubstantiated accusation, and 2) more attention than Wohlforth merits in an already overly long article.

With respect to Berlet speculating about LaRouche having some non-political reason for changing his political views, that is unverifiable and you should drop it. It is clear, Andy, that you are eager to pack as many negative opinions about LaRouche into this article as you can. I would suggest you confine yourself to accusations which can be verified. That would certainly help us bring the long-running edit battles over this article to a close. --Herschelkrustofsky 11:39, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let's look at the paragraph:

What happened to cause this dramatic shift? Some say it was a dramatic incident in LaRouche's personal life. In 1972 LaRouche's common-law wife, Carol Schnitzer, left him for a young member of the London NCLC chapter named Christopher White, whom she eventually married.

True

For LaRouche, it was a crushing blow.

reasonable assertion

Why is that? How would you know? --64.30.208.48 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
His first wife Janice had similarly walked out on him a decade earlier, taking with her the couple's young son.

True

This personal event apparently triggered LaRouche's political metamorphosis. LaRouche went into seclusion in Europe, and defectors tell of his suffering a possible nervous breakdown.

Is there any evidence that Berlet is lying when he says that defectors from the LaRouche movmenet speak of a "possible nervous breakdown"? If not then this is reasonable evidence to include.

In the spring of 1973, he returned.

True

His previous conspiratorial inclinations had now grown into a bizarre tapestry weaving together classical conspiracy theories of the 19th century and post-Marxian economics.

Coloured by Berlet's POV but it is true there was a change in LaRouche's thinking

Herschel offered a non-psychobabble explanation for the change. --64.30.208.48 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
He began articulating a `psycho-sexual' theory of political organizing.

True

Sexism and homophobia became central themes of the organization's theories.

True

POV. --64.30.208.48 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So how is this paragraph the package of lies described by LaRouche's defenders? AndyL 00:17, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The supposed causes are not proven by the effects. --64.30.208.48 01:13, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)