Misplaced Pages

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• Rory Cellan-Jones (16 October 2014). "Twitter and the poisoning of online debate". BBC News. I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity.
• David Jenkins (20 October 2014). "2014: Video gaming's worst year ever". Metro. The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer's ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you'd find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day.

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It seems Mike Cernovich, impromptu lawyer of pro-gg, wants to take on the IDGA for libel and/or slander. Has any RS picked up on this? And no, tabloids/blogs don't count as RS. --DSA510 Pls No H8 05:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Is there a connection between Gamergate and the issue(s) between Cernovich and IDGA? If not, then it is just an issue between the two sides. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

For one, Cernovich almost got SWATted by an anti-gger (No true Scotsman works both ways. Second, IGDA, is under scrutiny by pro-gg I hear. --DSA510 Pls No H8 07:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Update, by this point the IGDA is throwing the chairman of its Puerto Rican branch under the bus. No 2nd party sources yet. Check Cernovich's twitter, Milo's twitter, and Roberto Rosario's twitter for background before Gawker is inevitably sourced again. --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Background . --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Ummm,,,,I see no sources here, reliable or otherwise. What are you trying to say?MarkBernstein (talk) 12:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

He's trying to find out if anyone else has found reliable sources on this issue. This appears to be a valid question and a valid situation to address if we can. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No, this appears to be a WP:SOAPBOX for DSA510 to talk about something he explicitly admits has no sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I see him saying there's no second party source on this Puerto Rican issue, but not on the chief topic. It appears he's being proactive in trying to find non-poor sources, which should be commended. Of course, if no sources can be found, it shouldn't be included, but that doesn't preclude discussion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. The twitter stream only shows that one fellow on the internet is upset and threatening to sue someone. There's no reason to believe that he is capable or willing to file such a suit, and less reason to believe that the suit will succeed -- especially if it is filed against IDGA, which merely links to the database. Meanwhile, Cernovich’s allies have been sending Randi Harper, the developer of the blacklist, pictures of her dead sister: absolutely charming, right? But sure -- it's a valid situation to address, because maybe something will happen and maybe if something happens a WP:RS will mention it, and then you can edit war indefinitely for a pro-spin? No sources, no news. MarkBernstein (talk)

I seriously cannot believe we are starting this topic again. We can't slap the False into the title because the allegations that the a friendship existed were true. We have to define that the allegations that favourable coverage were given were false; That however cannot be done in a single heading. Avono (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something in the sources, isn't the accurate description of the claim "unfounded?" After all, the allegations have not been proven true or false, right? Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the claims, while based on weak evidence, has some foundation. But the claims have certainly be "refuted" by and large - the claims were made but the press has considered what the involved parties have said to be truthful so the claims were refuted. --MASEM (t) 16:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Walk me through this as if I'm completely new to this topic (it may just be able to nip this for good). What is the foundation, and what refuted it beyond the press simply declaring the "involved parties" as "truthful?" Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The foundation of the claim is: based on Gjoni's post, that Quinn and Grayson had started a more closer relationship. Quinn is a game dev with a game about to come out at that time, and Grayson an editor for the video game site Kotaku. The supposition that GG has used from that foundation is that Quinn was using the relationship to garner positive press for her game. (Note that Gjoni himself did not suggest any of this, and later went on record to affirm he didn't imply this at all).

The refution comes from a post made by Tolito, the lead ed at Kotaku, stating that the relationship between Quinn and Grayson (Which exists) has not impacted any of Grayson's editing since - there has been no review by Grayson or any member of Kotaku about DQ (this is provable), and while Grayson wrote about DQ earlier in a post about Game Jam, the timing was before the start of their relationship. As such, Tolito has refuted such claims, which Quinn and Grayson have said similar in their own comments. The press has readily agreed that the accusation is simply untrue based on these statements and lack of a DQ review. The GG side still point to the Game Jam article, which was written about 3 months prior to the relationship start date, as that there was still positive press at a point where Grayson and Quinn were friends within the industry, and that this still points to ethical concerns that Grayson gave Quinn's game a more favorable light in that Game Jam article. But at that point, we start going down a rabbit trail to even talk about it more from RSes. As such, the primary charge - Quinn was using the relationship with Grayson to get positive press - is by and far refuted by pretty much everyone else in the world. --MASEM (t) 17:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Zoe Quinn is a free adult woman; she may befriend whom she pleases -- even a writer. So no "allegation" can be made on this account. The "allegation" is that she traded sexual favors for favorable reviews; this allegation has been comprehensively shown to be untrue. "False" accords with (a) the sources, (b) the facts, and (c) the longstanding usage on this page and its consensus.

Also note that the unqualified allegation that Quinn traded, is alleged to have traded, or arguably traded sexual favors for favorable reviews would, if it appeared in the article, be a major BLP violation and as such is not, by my understanding, subject to the 3RR rule.

Please note that this edit war began (as I predicted yesterday) within 5 minutes of the end of page protection. Restoration of FULL PROTECTION is very much in the interest of the project -- not least because this page is and will continue to be the subject of interest and scrutiny. Admins please take note. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The fact the accusation has been the major point of discussion of sources - and that all key parties have clearly stated that these are not true - means that from a BLP standpoint, it is acceptable to include the high-level nature of the allegations, as long as it is 100% clear that they have been refuted by the specific parties and by the press at large. This has been determined waaaaay in the past. Now there are other claims that have come against Quinn based on Gjoni's post, but which the press have generally ignored, but we are absolutely not including those per BLP. --MASEM (t) 16:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

So, to be clear, the evidence that they're false comes from personal accounts, right? That's why "unfounded" appears to be a better word to use. That way, we're not letting the voice of Misplaced Pages take a side in what amounts to he-said-she-said, unless there's some clear evidence that I'm not seeing here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The biggest piece of evidence is the lack of positive coverage; there is no DQ review from Grayson (or Kotaku for that matter). What some GGers have focused on is Grayson's Game Jam article that highlights DQ as one of several games there, which arguably may be positive press, but it also was written before the date that Quinn/Grayson's relationship has been claimed to have been started; some GGers still consider this a problem in terms of positive press. --MASEM (t) 16:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

So there isn't anything proving or disproving the allegations, thus they're unfounded. Am I reading this right? Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That there is a relationship is true - none of the involved parties deny this (Tolito even affirmed it in his post). But using that relationship for press, there is no visible evidence for that, in addition to what all three have said on the matter (Tolio, Quinn, and Grayson). There are some GGers that doubt those statements, but that's not our place to second guess what RSes have all assumed to be true statements. --MASEM (t) 17:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That there is or was a relationship is true, but cannot be an allegation. The only thing that can possibly be alleged is that sexual favors were exchanged for favorable reviews. This was alleged, and it was shown to be untrue. Dredging this up again and again could conceivably be actionable and is certainly a violation of WP:BLP. Nor need we make a point that the RS have all assumed these to be true statements: since no favorable reviews were in fact written, then the favorable reviews that do not exist could not possibly have been written in exchange for sexual favors. Why do the same WP editors keep finding the need to rehash the sexual history of this particular woman, who committed no wrongdoing, here? Stop it. MASEM : please consider revdel-ing this section, and someone -- anyone -- please hat it without delay. MarkBernstein (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@Masem: got it. I think, given what is known, that "unfounded" is what we should be using. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I think false is fine. And I think it's a good thing we have six months now to discuss this and other pressing topics without risk of using wikipedia to make allegations about a game developer’s personal life. Now, it'd be dandy if the proponents of "Allegations" or "Unproven Allegations" would apologize to their victim, but that's not going to happen, is it? But I think it not unreasonable to ask that we enjoy a respite from rehashing this unrelenting torrent of vituperation against women in computing. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

With no firm evidence that the claims are false, regardless of our own feelings or beliefs on the matter, we need to go with what's available, thus "unfounded" seems fair: it put the onus on the accusers and assigns no fault to the target. "Unproven" implies evidence exists that hasn't been presented for the purposes of writing a neutral, factual article. Furthermore, please stop with the bad faith accusations here. It's a lot of heat and no light. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The allegation that Quinn had a relationship was something that Gjoni's original post brought up (and to go into any more of that post, would be BLP for sure); the subsequent allegation that grew out of that from the GG side is that she not only had that relationship but was using it for positive press. Now at that point, there was no affirmation that Quinn/Grayson had a relationship, but once Tolito posted, as Kotaku's lead editor, about the situation, he affirmed that yes, there was an relationship, but nothing else about the allegation was true. As such "false" is technically wrong, because one facet of the allegation was confirmed as true; I'm fine with "unproven" to signal that no reliable source considers the allegation to be true otherwise. --MASEM (t) 20:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I've restored full protection. An immediate edit war upon the end of page protection regarding a significant aspect of the controversy clearly indicates the need. Gamaliel (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you,Gamaliel. As you were doing this, I was posting at AN/I asking someone -- anyone -- to do exactly that. You're a prince.

The hatting of this thread really comes across as strange. If we're not able to discuss a key section of the article, how are we supposed to improve/fix/settle the article? Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

per the above, I was willingly to compromise with the "Unfounded" change, having regrettingly done the "Unproven" edit one because I thought it represented it better. I was about to post this to end the discussion when I instead found out that Gamaliel RedPenOfDoom hatted it instead. Avono (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

RedPenOfDoom hatted it. Arguably we've been through the details of what the allegations are so many times in the past but that's been something that new ediors might not recognize if they don't read the archives. --MASEM (t) 18:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The hatting (partially) protects serious BLP violations. If it were necessary to discuss false allegations concerning a named individual's sex life -- which you apparently felts was desirable -- that discussion is now settled. The allegations were false and unfounded; that's what the sources say, and that's what Misplaced Pages says. Some people apparently felt it was important to argue that the false and unfounded allegations might be better described as "unproven" or that we should rehash the sexual allegations again, in more detail, to see if something exculpatory for Gamergate might come up. It didn't. I'd take it as a kindness if, having read this, talk would tick his question and my answer together up under the hat.MarkBernstein (talk) 18:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I will not do so, no. I don't know why you continue to assume motives about your fellow editors, but the fact remains that the allegations, true or false or unfounded or unproven or disproven, remain part and parcel of the topic as far as I can tell, and are as such because of the sources that discuss them. No one involved in this talk section appears to want to slander anyone, but rather wants to solve the problem so we can all move on. Comments like this only serve to fan the flames. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That's an overreaction. If we were only including an allegation with no claims to back it up or no sourcing to show it was refuted, that would definitely be a BLP allegation. But we have many many RSes that all explain how this situation started from the allegations of using the relationship for positive reviews, the refutation of those by said parties, and the numerous sources that all believe their word it was refuted. That's completely acceptable to include (and as necessary, discuss) in building and improving the article. Again, I note that there are several other claims made by Gjoni that we will not include because no one else has talked about them or provided evidence about them, and that would be a clear BLP issue. But when an accusation is the focal point of an event, it has to be discussed. --MASEM (t) 18:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I have unhatted, Red Pen of Doom should absolutely not be hatting any discussion. It also violates WP:BLPTALK. Tutelary (talk) 19:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a valid argument that TPROD should not have hatted the discussion under WP:BLPTALK. There is no valid argument that it requires unhatting. According to BLPTALK, false allegations should be removed, deleted, redacted, or suppressed. It does not say that hatted discussions should be exposed. User:Tutelary: You are experienced enough that you should know that BLPTALK does not say that hatted comments should be exposed. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I have issue and concern that if these claims related to the article are not resolved, they will stay in a state which will happen to also be a BLP violation. Hatting (and especially by a seriously involved editor) has no purpose on this specific discussion. For an example of hatting done right, Dungeon's assertion of Mike Cernovich should be hatted, as he presented no sources and the like. Hatting an active discussion relating to content which there are sources is not a productive use of time and delays the editing process. Tutelary (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

So gamergate IS about prurient interests in women's sex lives? I thought it was about ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

On the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. You, User: TheRedPenOfDoom, never really believed that it was about ethics, did you? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Is it about misogyny in gaming then? Explain why I was doxxed. --DSA510 Pls No H8 19:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Or you could just not make meme claims on the talk page which is about improving the article, Red. Tutelary (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

edit warring to reopen well settled and well sourced content to beg WP:FORUM BLP allegations that are not related to the topic of the article is not improving the encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:28, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

It's obviously not resolved if you're having to edit war to hat it. The article was edit warred to the exact issue. Discussion ensued. I see nothing out of process here other than the disruptive hatting. Tutelary (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

that editors keep saying we dont believe we should follow all of the reliable sources, doenst mean that it is not "settled" it just means that some people are disruptive. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

And no editors in this discussion are saying we shouldn't follow the reliable sources, so this accusation also appears unfounded. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources call the accusations false. That's a settled issue. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The reliable sources call the accusations false, yes. No one is disputing that. The question is how we, as a project, should refer to them in Misplaced Pages's voice given the evidence of the claim. Thus the option to use "unfounded," as it is a neutral term that encompasses the claims of all sides as well as weighs the evidence. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

We look at the sides of the evidence that have been presented by the reliable sources. Their side of the evidence: That the allegations ARE false. Period. And yes there ARE editors who are not only passively disputing it like you, but actively disputing it .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no "other side" here worthy of discussion, per WP:FRINGE. We cannot mention disproven allegations about a living person without clearly describing them as disproven. It is not "neutral" to present something which is false as possibly true. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand, and part of the discussion above was to solve this. The reliable sources have declared them untrue, yes. We should say that with proper attribution. In Misplaced Pages's voice, however, we cannot simply assert a claim in either direction lacking evidence to do so. This is not a fringe position that the claims are unfounded, as reliable sources also state that. Given the nature of the claims and the evidence, there does not seem to be any other word that responsibly defines the situation described. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You are just kidding arent you? Otherwise you are clearly demonstrating that you are either not WP:COMPETENT or are simply here to troll. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks. I have been an editor here for years, I understand very well how this works. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No. The reliable sources call them false, because, as the reliable sources discuss, the evidence demonstrates that they are false. There is not and never has been a review of Depression Quest by Nathan Grayson. No such review exists in this or any other universe. This is uncontroverted fact, and fundamentally disproves the allegation. Any claims that the allegations are true is a fringe theory unworthy of mention in this article. When it comes to allegations of wrongdoing about living people, it is a fundamental BLP issue that we describe false allegations as false, and we will do so in this case. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere, and this comes back to the original question above. How does the lack of the review disprove the claim? That's the part I'm missing, based solely off the sources provided and the article. I'm trying to figure out how to solve this issue. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The claim is that the relationship led to positive reviews and coverage by Nathan Grayson. No such reviews exist, and Nathan Grayson did not write anything at all about Zoe Quinn after the relationship began. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Got it. Based on what you're saying here, I have a better grasp on it. The language in the article as it currently stands appears good, then, and we might want to be more explicit about it being about one specific allegation, as the current wording suggests multiple allegations beyond the single review. Thank you for your patience. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:34, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Reviewing the bidding again, as requested.. The page is unprotected this morning, after an overnight spasm of WP:FORUM speculation by DSA. Immediately after it's unprotected, we are asked to inquire into Zoe Quinn’s sex life, which has already been exhaustively discussed here. Is there something unethical? No. (again) Is there some source somewhere what says something might be unethical? (no) Can't we find anything bad to say? (no) Can we just say "allegations were made?" (no) Can we substitute "unfounded allegations" for "false allegations"? (maybe) Should this be on the talk page? (no) But OMG WP:BLPTALK !!!!! Can't hat! We must have more discussion of Zoe Quinn's sex life, as prominently as possible, because ... why exactly?! Oh -- and what other GG victims have sex lives we can discuss? (Hint: DSA tried to start that last night.) But its all fine, 'cause DSA says he got doxxed just like Ruylong, and WP:BLPTALK, and we mustn't misquote the nice admin about no static image can readily depict rape, because (oh yeah) it's really important that we spend a few thousand words to distinguish whether to call it a "rape meme" or a "rape joke" or "sodomy" because sodomy is totally like rape and it's all icky (as the respected admin reminded us repeatedly) but what are you going to do? Let me walk right up to the edge of WP:CIVIL, because the very edge is the only place we can decently stand: The behavior of pro-GG wikipedians on this page over the past 36 hours has been disheartening, appalling, and a disgrace to what was once a noble project. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Now this comment is the definition of WP:FORUM and a rant in itself. Tutelary (talk) 20:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No: it's a measured summary of the discussion, specifically requested by Thargor Orlando. But it you consider it WP:FORUM, I believe you know the way to discretionary sanctions. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I consider the slander against my name by anti-gg pov-pushers saying that I am not neutral and such is sanctionable. But then again i don't support censorship, or lower myself to the level of anti-gg terrorists. --DSA510 Pls No H8 20:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Arb break

The issue overall is that when we mention "allegations", we have two allegations that we can talk to (under the scope of BLP and what good RSes give us):

• That Quinn and Grayson had a relationship (from Gjoni's post)
• That, in that relationship, Quinn was using it to get positive reviews (from GG's side)

The former was proven true by Kotaku, Quinn and Grayson, in a public manner. The latter has clear lack of evidence (no review of DQ on Kotaku, and Grayson hasn't mentioned her game in anything he's written since the relationship started) to be presumed false by all sources that matter.

So the issue, saying "false allegations" is not accurate because one was at least true. On the other hand if we are limiting it to the single accusation of positive press, then "false" is correct, as we currently have in the body This led to false allegations from Quinn's detractors in the gaming community that the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of Quinn's game, Depression Quest. But in the section title, "false assuations" is not correct, and while we could say "false accusation", there are several others accusations made (that we will not repeat) that GGers have also focused on, and while these have not had anywhere close to the same visibility of the main one, they have generally been considered unfounded or tangent to the matter at hand, but they do exist. Thus a word that is near to "false" but less "absolute" would be the better wording choice for the section title, such as "Unproven allegations...". --MASEM (t) 20:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Am I right in understanding that the Depression Quest review claim is false based on the evidence, but that there are other allegations that are believed to be false, but can only accurately be called unfounded or unproven? That might be the root of the issue of this section right here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:31, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

There are other issues the proGG side has said that involve Quinn and journalism corruption that are above and beyond the relationship with Grayson which I am not going to go into any detail about for BLP reasons, just that those allegations have been made. I don't believe these allegations have merit but they do exist. --MASEM (t) 20:35, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

If such allegations are not discussed in reliable sources, they don't exist for our purposes. You should know this already, Masem, and I'm sure you do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That was my concern as well, and some research I've been doing this afternoon sees them as barely discussed in unreliable ones as well. I think my issues with this section are mollified with the current language in the article. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The article prose on the allegations itself is fine, I don't have issues with it either. It's just the section title and how things are reflected in the lead. --MASEM (t) 20:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No, Masem. The fact that someone's in a relationship is not an "allegation." There is no wrongdoing inherent to a personal relationship. As per the dictionary definition, an allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof.

Therefore, "alleging" that Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson had a relationship is meaningless and a non-issue. What is or could be a meaningful issue and allegation is if that relationship resulted in unethical conduct by Nathan Grayson. That is the allegation. That allegation has been thoroughly and repeatedly disproven. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Two adults having a relationship is not an "allegation" that anyone cares about or that has any bearing on this article. The Puritan sex police are => Thataway-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Gjoni's post certainly made it it an allegation - he didn't have clear evidence of the relationship at the time. --MASEM (t) 20:35, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The existence of the relationship is not a meaningful public issue and no reliable sources have commented upon it. The only allegation which has been treated by reliable sources as a matter of public concern is the potential for a conflict of interest affecting journalistic coverage. The mere existence of a relationship between two people can have no bearing on the GamerGate controversy — unless you are admitting that GamerGate is ultimately founded upon the desire to slut-shame a woman. And if you are doing so, then I submit that the controversy about what to put in the lede of this article is over. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That Quinn and Grayson had a relationship is not an allegation. All sources agree. It is simply a fact.Moreover, an allegation implies wrongdoing, and there is no wrongdoing here. On its own, this has no relationship to this topic or to Zoe Quinn's biography, and mentioning it would be XP:UNDUE and a major BLP violation.

That Quinn exchanged sexual favors for favorable editorial coverage is an allegation. Unfortunately for MASEM's point of view, this allegation is false. We can assert its falsehood in two ways. (a) The overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources agree it is false. (b) It could only be true if, in fact, sexual favors were exchanged for editorial coverage. As Grayson wrote no editorial coverage, the allegation is necessarily false. Again and again: MASEM and his (fortunately shrinking -- DSA is about to be topic banned for last night's escapade) band of merry editors try to insinuate that Zoe Quinn's sex life deserves discussion here and that the language of the article should find some way to insinuate that something unethical occurred because.....why exactly? MarkBernstein (talk) 20:37, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The relationship existed. The allegation that it led to favorable reviews is unfounded. That the relationship lead to ethics changes is true. Professional news organizations have association policies and disclosure policies and post-Quinn/Grayson policy changes have occurred. In fact, those changes were assailed since they only came out after a female developer's relationship was exposed. That doesn't change the fact that the changes happened. Make no mistake: it was Grayson that was ethically challenged by not disclosing his relationship and the fact that he didn't review Quinn's game is a very narrow view of ethics. Grayson's boss had employees that reviewed Quinn and is why he made a statement. Quinn is not a journalist so any allegation against her is unfounded. --DHeyward (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Grayson did not write anything about Quinn or Depression Quest after beginning the relationship. Therefore, there was nothing for him to disclose, as he assiduously refrained from covering anything which might have led to the potential for a conflict of interest. No journalism ethics code anywhere requires that journalists wear scarlet letters informing the public of whom they have had intimate relations with. Kotaku never reviewed Depression Quest so no, Grayson's boss didn't have "employees that reviewed Quinn." You seem to be thoroughly misinformed as to the actual facts of the case. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. Get's kind of awkward in the staff meetings when one author is discussing the work of a secret S/O of another writer. It's why ALL relationships with their topics are to be disclosed. It's why news organizations have disclosure policies (even if only internal). That Grayson's boss was surprised and had to investigate and then run damage control was enough to change policy. Think of Olbermann and Scarborough giving campaign donations. the problem wasn't the donation, it was the lack of disclosure. I work in an industry where disclosure to management is required (and isn't publicized, though may be forwarded to regulatory body). It doesn't matter whether a conflict happened, rather it's the perception of a conflict and a lack of oversight. Not disclosing a real or potential conflict can lead to termination. --DHeyward (talk)

Why are we (again, still) discussing Zoe Quinn’s sex life? Zoe Quinn did nothing that was either (a) wrong or (b) any of our business. This will not, apparently, lead the sex-squad tag team from asserting that there's some sort of unproven sexual allegation that we need to explore in exhaustive depth. Proposal: since all sources agree that Zoe Quinn was blameless, let's rewrite the section without her. Journalist Grayson was alleged to have had a relationship with a game developer whose work he would review. The allegation would still have to be clearly stated to have been false, but we could leave Zoe Quinn out of the matter entirely since she did nothing wrong.

Of course we will do no such thing, because ethics! (And we're terrorists now, forsooth, according to DSA’s swan song on this page.) MarkBernstein (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Nice cherrypicking. I'm talking about the people on anti-gg who found my personal info and doxxed me. Unless you're admitting to doxxing me? --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I also like to turn people's words against them. Someone on twitter called gg a group of terrorists, I call people who dox me terrorists. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

No we can't. Because then the reason that Quinn got harassed makes no logical sense in the article. Her name is necessary to mention - by no fault of her own - as central to all this. --MASEM (t) 21:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

How about Journalist Grayson was alleged to have had a relationship with a game developer whose work he would review. This allegation, upon investigation, proved to be untrue, but nonetheless led to the persistent harassment, death and rape threats against game developer Zoe Quinn, author of Depression Quest? At very least, this sequence reduces the temptation to insinuate that some wrongdoing might have occurred and further reduces the likelihood that any insinuations that find their way into the article, even briefly, will redound against Quinn. We've already done more than enough of that. But of course (sad...so sad) the very sorry GG contingent will find some reason that this, too is simply impossible and that instead we'll have to talk more about whether allegations about Quinn's sex life are alleged or unfounded or unproven. Again: shameful. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from Loganmac, who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by Aquillion patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as Aquillion usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage. Enough. This has got to stop. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Mark, I request that you cease this battleground and inflammatory behaviour. The disparity between Aquillion's and your response is telling, Aquillion looked at the sources, while Mark targeted editors who haven't even commented yet! starship.paint ~ regal 03:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Mark please calm down, it seems you are attacking people who have not participated in discussion yet. Retartist (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

We aren't pals, Retartist: it's Dr. Bernstein to you, thank you, or Mark Bernstein if you're a member of the Society of Friends. Thanks. See following comment which applies equally to you.MarkBernstein (talk) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

"I did not hit her! It’s not true! It’s bullshit! I did not! Oh, hi Mark." What? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) Retartist (talk) 05:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The pattern has been unrelenting for days on end. It's really interesting that starship shows up a few minutes after another user, one who makes the same arguments in the same tone, is topic-banned, and complains just after asserting in the section above that he made one revert (I recall two) and that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" because they probably did have sex! For crying out loud: do you folks have no decency? This pattern of edits has been unrelenting for days -- one BLP violation followed by an insinuation followed by a slow, slow retreat, fighting every inch of the way. Yes, I'm angry. (No reason to think starship's a sock: we all know they've been coordinating offsite and banned DS apparently defied the topic ban when issued to coordinate their offsite rendezvous). MarkBernstein (talk) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Dr. @MarkBernstein:, please stop with these insinuations about me. You recall me making two reverts... go and check! You claim that I argued that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" - well I did not do that, I was only protesting the labeling of "highly disruptive" to well-meaning editors - I judged that from reading the talk page discussion which seemed reasonable. And just because they've been coordinating offsite, so I'm one of them? A meatpuppet? Nope, I am not. I am not even a gamer. I've made good contributions to Misplaced Pages... the paranoia leaves me extremely insulted. starship.paint ~ regal 08:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be quite angry at this subject, I don't know why. How is me commenting on an user talk "colluding", you know these are serious claims right? That guy was topic-banned for NOTFORUM which is to say least, minor and banning for 90 days is fairly questionable, and I didn't know he was topic-banned when talking to him. In any case, those sources don't label the movement itself as a conpiracy theory, they just state SOME of their claims are, catogorizing the article as a conpiracy theoriy makes the whole controversy sound like a conspiracy theory when there are well documented concerns on the article itself like GameJournosPro and the sites in question acknowledging this, hence multiple policy changes and disclosures. In any case my concern is when was it discussed, when did an editor get approval to add this, it seems like a sneaky attempt at making this more one sided. Loganmac (talk) 05:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hey guys, just a suggestion, if you're getting angry just take some time out. Have a break. Go for a walk. Come back when you're a bit more settled. We all get frustrated from time to time but life is too short to get angry editing an article. Jgm74 (talk) 07:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

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