Revision as of 16:20, 25 November 2014 view sourceTheRedPenOfDoom (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers135,756 edits →Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft: r← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:30, 25 November 2014 view source Masem (talk | contribs)Administrators187,149 edits →Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draftNext edit → | ||
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:::::::::::::::There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. ]] 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC) | :::::::::::::::There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. ]] 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::::::::]. -- ] 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC) | ::::::::::::::::]. -- ] 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::::::::::In most cases Godwin's law applies in the sense that the discussion would be circling the drain, but the application here is to compare how we (WP) have covered other topics where there is a clear public opinion that swings one way, and note the tone and neutrality that those articles take - no article on a controversial or hated figure or group comes out speaking of the public opinion's of a person/group in WP's voice, clearly assigning where the public opinion comes from, or holding off on criticizing the group/person until later in the article, sourcing all that. Take for example ], which the first two sentences immediately speak to the negative impression it has but using language to clearly establisht that that is how the public sees it and not as a fact (eg we don't say "The church is a hate group" but instead "The church is widely described as a hate group", keeping WP impartial to the matter). The same logic and approach must apply here. --] (]) 16:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. ] (]) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC) | ::::::::::I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. ] (]) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::::I would support your suggestions. {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}} is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}} | :::::I would support your suggestions. {{blue|Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ...}} is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with {{blue|These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.}} |
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That 4chan image
Since I'm not seeing where this was discussed before and to actually establish some consensus, in considered the referenced DBZ image that the GG logo's colors are said to evoke, the question is how that image is described. Both from the sources and knowing the image in question, the image can be described, at best, depicting sodomy (one static image cannot readily imply rape) but when the image was used on 4chan, it was typically associated with their so-called "rape jokes" - in that 4chan applied the "rape" concept to the image. The FastCo Branding article does establish that it is a "rape joke" image, so we can't say it depicts "rape", but can say it is a image often associated with "rape jokes" on 4chan, per FastCo. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- -MASEM writes: “ one static image cannot readily imply rape”.
- I rather suspect that few art historians and fewer semioticians would agree with MASEM.
- Yes, that was a bad choice of argument for Masem, for multiple reasons: (1) the image in question is an animation, not static; (2) static images of the Rape of the Sabine Women have been a mainstay of classical art for centuries; (3) this sort of expression of personal opinion about what is or is not possible, in the face of what the reliable sources actually say, is the sort of thing we should be trying to avoid here. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:02, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- In the context of threats of personal harm, I’d not advise anyone to rest too much weight on the distinction between "rape" and "rape joke". I know that I just critiqued MASEM above (in fact edit-conflicting with this), but seriously: this is not what you want to say, not even on a talk page, not even in the heat of an argument. Please rethink this quickly. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- There is a necessary distinction, however, when it comes to the typical 4-chan mindset, and why we should be clear. Communities like that are aware of the cruelty of the physical action, but their online culture of anonymonity and separate from any victims, as described by many social reports on GG and the Internet in general, give them little idea of the consequences and repercussions of the use of "rape jokes" and the like particularly to those the target of those jokes. They don't see that being an issue (at least, until moderation steps in as was for the given 4chan image with the given color scheme). As such, in terms of talking about the 4chan community, there is a difference, and we have to be careful with the wording to avoid implicating something that is not true on a otherwise delicate manner. --MASEM (t) 17:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- I rather suspect that few art historians and fewer semioticians would agree with MASEM.
- It really wasn't that I could find after the fact, or it was not discussed with any conclusiveness, so that kinda takes the hot air out of the flawed GG sanction filing last night. I'd be fine with "rape joke" as the descriptor. I'm also rather nauseated that we even have to discuss this in this level of detail. Tarc (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Trying to stave off another edit war, and since I can't find earlier consensus, might as well set it now and get it done over with quickly. I don't like talking about this either but necessary to avoid problems here. --MASEM (t) 17:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Emphatic Oppose: First, the Fast Company article uses "rape" in the headline, repeatedly in the body, and elsewhere. Second, "joke" is a silly fig leaf: "Oh, my client made no threat -- the horse head in his bed was simply a practical joke" Third, we are apparently being invited to speculate whether in the mindset of 4chan sodomy is not as bad as rape or is "not that big a deal" and we have to respect what the people making rape threats 4chan commenters really meant. This is well beyond the pale. Please think again. (Meanwhile, should this go to AN/I immediately? Discretionary sanctions? WP:EMERGENCY? The project would be cast in a most unfortunate light if this discussion became common knowledge.) MarkBernstein (talk) 17:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- First, there was an edit war over it; something has to be discussed; it's an icky discussion but one that is needed if we are going to talk about that in the article (WP is not censored). Second, it is not a "fig leaf", it a very large difference between a "rape joke" that comes from the locker room attitude of 4chan, and the actual vile physical action which I doubt the average 4channer would actually support. --MASEM (t) 17:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- BTW, the FastCo article doesn't use "rape" in the headline at all, and only uses "rape joke" or "rape meme", but even describes the actual image in another manner. --MASEM (t) 17:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- My mistake: rape is in Boing Boing’s headline, the other reference. I'm glad you think the average 4chan reader does not support committing a first-class felony. And it's not an icky discussion at all. What’s icky here is excusing threatening female game developers with rape (besides murder) because either (a) not everyone on 4chan thinks that three women who happen to work in the games industry ought to be raped, and (b) they might have intended to threaten anal rather than vaginal rape, which they (or you?) think is less bad for some reason? Or you have reason to think that they think it’s less bad? MarkBernstein (talk) 17:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well this is where we'd probably differ, but I think we're winding up in the same place anyways. The average, level-headed person obviously finds the idea of rape abhorrent, but IMO they also find the idea of joking about such a serious thing equally abhorrent. Trivializing and desensitizing others to the act via joking is just as damaging, so if Gamergaters want to hang their argument on "we aren't being serious, we're just having fun", I say "go right ahead". Tarc (talk) 18:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed 100%. Is there consensus to change this to ... linked the character's green and purple color scheme to an old 4chan rape joke.? This is how it's most commonly referred to in both sources (or 'rape meme', but in this context I'd consider them pretty much synonyms.) — Strongjam (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd quote "rape joke" but other than that is fine. Let the reader determine how appropriate a "rape joke" is instead of putting it in WP's voice, to keep us neutral. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed 100%. Is there consensus to change this to ... linked the character's green and purple color scheme to an old 4chan rape joke.? This is how it's most commonly referred to in both sources (or 'rape meme', but in this context I'd consider them pretty much synonyms.) — Strongjam (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well this is where we'd probably differ, but I think we're winding up in the same place anyways. The average, level-headed person obviously finds the idea of rape abhorrent, but IMO they also find the idea of joking about such a serious thing equally abhorrent. Trivializing and desensitizing others to the act via joking is just as damaging, so if Gamergaters want to hang their argument on "we aren't being serious, we're just having fun", I say "go right ahead". Tarc (talk) 18:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- No. "Old" implies it's just an old joke, so no big deal. "Joke" is doubtful: I see no evidence that there's a joke here. Is there a story with a funny punchline? Is this something said to cause amusement? Who is amused, precisely? It’s allusion to an image of anal rape, presented in the context of threats against specific named women, and we should (and must) say so without excuse or prevarication. And someone -- preferably Masen -- should revdel the claim that "static images cannot readily imply rape " before we end up being called (a) a laughingstock and (b) rape enablers.
- I was thinking of "old" as in "long standing", not as a diminutive. We can leave it off, but we should convey to the reader somehow that this wasn't something new and unfamiliar to 4chan users. The sources use both "joke" and "meme". I agree it's not much of a 'joke', maybe "meme" would be better? We definitely don't need the scare quotes or any "locker room culture" talk. — Strongjam (talk) 18:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- No. "Old" implies it's just an old joke, so no big deal. "Joke" is doubtful: I see no evidence that there's a joke here. Is there a story with a funny punchline? Is this something said to cause amusement? Who is amused, precisely? It’s allusion to an image of anal rape, presented in the context of threats against specific named women, and we should (and must) say so without excuse or prevarication. And someone -- preferably Masen -- should revdel the claim that "static images cannot readily imply rape " before we end up being called (a) a laughingstock and (b) rape enablers.
(edit conflict) MASEM: in the interest of keeping WP’s voice neutral, you want to be sure that the reader determines how appropriate a "rape joke" might be in the context of threats of physical harm leveled against women for pursuing their professional vocation. Could you provide an example where readers would think rape jokes to be appropriate in this context? (Do you have a bunch of good rape jokes you'd like to share with us?) MarkBernstein (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Firstly your thoughts on this aren't very relevant, second of course people found it funny, it's shock humour. HalfHat 22:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, we should let the reader come to a conclusion that is not stated in the sources but implicit by a reasonable moral system. That is we can say, factually:
- There was an image (since banned) used on 4chan as part of a "rape joke" locker room attitude that has a unique color scheme.
- Even once the image was banned, other images of the same color scheme were used on 4chan in the same "locker room" joking attitude.
- Images used by GG - their logo and Vivian specifically - use a similar color scheme.
- We can then say, per Fast Co's commentary that they (and others) believe this is not concidence, while GGs have denied any connection.
- But we cannot make the implicit connection from GG using images that suggest the rape joke to the issues of harassment and rape threats to say that there's a problem with this because even as an opinion that is not stated in the sources; it's well implied, but not stated. The reader will have to come to that conclusion themselves, and I would expect most will, regardless. But we have to stay non-sympathetic as editors on WP, and present things as neutrally and impartially as possible. Also, I consider your last sentence approaching a personal attack; I am in no way trying to morally justify how 4chan thinks, only that they do think in a different way that we should not present wrongly. --MASEM (t) 18:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
On the subject of whether a static image can imply rape, we have MASEM on the one hand, and on the other hand we have Goya, Picasso, Bernini, Rubens, and a whole lot more. I think it's quite clear that Fast Company and Boing Boing drew the conclusion that the color scheme was chosen to allude to a rape meme. I also note that above you adopt the excuse that it's merely a "locker room" joking attitude -- after all, threatening rape in a locker room is just boyish behavior? I can't believe what I'm seeing -- and I can’t believe I’m alone here. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- I am absolutely not trying to defend them, I am trying to say that in WP's neutral voice, there is a difference between a "rape joke" and the actual act, and we cannot imply the latter if the sources only talk about the former. We need to stay amoral regardless of any personal feelings on the matter. --MASEM (t) 18:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
This is Misplaced Pages. We go with what the sources say. Artw (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
It should be noted that this misunderstanding is partially my fault, as I mentioned and allured to a discussion which was not large as I remembered, and certainly not as concrete as I remember. For that I am regretful. Though, More discussion is warranted I suppose. Rather than all the not forum and heated arguments, let's argue strictly based on the sources. The 'sodomy' compromise was what I believe was endured to stop the edit warring and endured until it was reverted by another editor just recently. Sodomy and rape are synonyms and if not, very closely related and is appropriate. It was a euphemism, additionally. So, the sources say: Fastcodedesign.com (ignoring any issues of reliablity), say 'rape meme' in the author's tone, but quotes the 'rape joke' portion of it. It also further mentions 'meme' further down in the article. They also use rape joke as someone's quote, so it appears they're using it interchangably. Boing Boing is less ambiguous, they use 'rape joke' in the title and in the article. So in essence, rape joke appears in both sources and if we're going to be going with not a compromise but solely from the source, it would be the dominant figure. Tutelary (talk) 18:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- My goodness: I find I agree here with Tutelary Will wonders never cease. However, sodomy and rape are not synonyms nor are they "very closely related", nor is "sodomy" a suitable euphemism for "rape", nor should Misplaced Pages adopt euphemisms to cover up criminal threats. The terms of this discussion are extremely ill-advised, but we now have a consensus: the sources say "rape" and "rape joke" and there we are. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's not uncommon to do such on Misplaced Pages, especially with regards to BLP; and to stop edit wars. It just makes it all the more common. And no, you're deliberately leaving off the 'joke' portion of it. They didn't mention purely the word, 'rape' but with the qualifier based on it. If you're trying to deliberately omit that qualifier, I am opposed to such as that would be synthesis of the source and leaves behind the important background information. Tutelary (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm OK with "rape joke" as in these sources, but I (and I think quite a few readers) would appreciate a hint about how this is "a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline." I guess I'm missing something. No doubt I'm being dense; be a pal and let me in on the joke, OK? I mean, if the source called it a "rape trout," we'd presumably be scratching our heads. (Hate to be a sourpuss, but I'm not sure that I join with MASEM in thinking Misplaced Pages should be "amoral" when it comes down to raping game developers.) MarkBernstein (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- As the FastCo article explains, it is a in-joke in that, in the past, someone would post that image regularly, forcing it to the readers despite them not wanting it (hence the name). It is not so much "a joke about rape" (which yeah, would be hard to stomach), but a "forced" meme, which they came to call a "rape joke". We don't have to make any attempt to justify this even close to be a reasonable thing, only that it does exist and best described by that. --MASEM (t) 20:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm OK with "rape joke" as in these sources, but I (and I think quite a few readers) would appreciate a hint about how this is "a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline." I guess I'm missing something. No doubt I'm being dense; be a pal and let me in on the joke, OK? I mean, if the source called it a "rape trout," we'd presumably be scratching our heads. (Hate to be a sourpuss, but I'm not sure that I join with MASEM in thinking Misplaced Pages should be "amoral" when it comes down to raping game developers.) MarkBernstein (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, MASEM. Walk me through this: I guess I'm very slow today. A group at 4chan is discussing a campaign to dissuade female game developers from pursuing their vocation by various means, such as beating them up at conferences. We're sending them rape and murder threats on Twitter, coordinated through this board at 4chan. And we’re sending each other an image that depicts a purple cartoon character raping a green cartoon character, which we send to various people "despite them not wanting it." I'm still not seeing a joke here. Of course, for some reason you don’t think any static image can depict rape, so I'm not sure you and I have a lot of common ground when it comes to visual humor.
- Let’s literally follow the sources. Rather than a "rape image" or a "rape joke", how about "an image of rape which 4chan users regarded as a joke"? That seems to follow precisely what you describe; the sources agree that the colors allude to a specific image, the sources (and common sense) that the image described non-consensual sexual penetration, and (as you point out) the sources make it clear that at 4chan, GamerGaters considered it a joke. This precisely follows our sources. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:15, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- The image and the harassment are separated by about 4-6 years of time (the image was banned on the site some time ago). So you're creating a statement about connection that doesn't exist. The connection from the image, to the green and purple colors which sorta became memetic on 4chan, to the Vivian/GG logo is postulated; the creators in the Fast Co article are stating it started from the green/purple of 4chan, and not the allusion to the first image, even if that's where the green/purple came from (there's oral history-type stuff that gets lost that people might forget such origins). There are clear possible theories presented that the designers of those images knew exactly what they were doing when they created the logos, but we cannot verify that at all. And no, the sources are clear is it s a "rape joke/meme", (in quotes) when used in the past. I doubt that today they would considering using that image in light of the harassment issues. --MASEM (t) 22:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I am so lucky I have someone on the inside to consult about *chan and the IRC. To start MB's... useful contributions are full of factual inaccuracies, appeals to emotion, and other such stuff. For one, Poole has formally censored any talk of GamerHate, save for a containment thread on the /pol/ board, which everyone takes seriously. Secondly, I can't imagine what 20k+ group of diverse peoples who are fed up with the status quo GamerHate sockpuppets, have to gain from harassing 3 women for 3+ months. Am I defending the scumbags who have harassed the women? Absolutely not. I simply find it beyond logic that 20K+ white, cishet male sockpuppet SPA vandals like me (neither cis, heterosexual, white, SPA, or vandal, and im NEUTRAL to GG, fyi), would have something to gain from such a trivial exercise in self-humiliation. Anyways, sure someone on the internet said so and so = rape, but it is up to Misplaced Pages to present the APPROPRIATE INFO. I'm sure the "green+purple=rape" can be justified; the same way /pol/ justifies the Holocaust. And, suppose that the green+purple colourscheme was based on piccolo. There are many avenues one can take to explain that. Perhaps the /a/ anime board wanted to hijack, in essence a character in a professional game. Or, make an inside joke about DBZ and GG. Perhaps a subtle way for /a/ to insult /v/'s taste in anime? Maybe some other board did something, since as I'm told, board infighting is common. AND, even if it is a reference (somehow) to Daily Dose, context matters. Perhaps it was the forced nature, perhaps (this is a huge stretch), since the pro-gg side were already nazis/rapists/KKK/ebola, they wanted to throw a curveball to the media knowing they grasp at nonexistent straws, in the hopes they'd make fools of themselves (suddenly its sounding very plausible). Unless you hunt down all 20K+ sockpuppets of GamerHate, and force them to submit to polygraph tests, and interrogate them about the meaning of the colors, is there really any way to make the claim said by the "RS"? Sure, both sides have made some hilariously fringe claims, but this one takes the cake, and eats it too. Unless you resort to far-right pseudoscience, I find no logical way to make such a definitive, and final claim. More attempts to charge an already charged article. --DSA510 Pls No H8 01:46, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- if we're going to open things up to WP:OR them we're going to open things up to EVERYONES OR, and trust me when I say it's not going to come out looking any better. Artw (talk) 05:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- The articles sourced should somewhat be held to Misplaced Pages's own standards. This is a fringe point being made. It takes up valuable server space and adds nothing of value to the article. It should be removed completely. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- You are not actually suggesting that we should apply WP:OR to content within our sources and dismiss any source that makes an analysis because the source has made analysis and interpretation? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- /glances upwards at ridiculous conversation.
- I think the whole conserving server space ship has sailed, I'm afraid. Artw (talk) 06:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- it was a joke. --DSA510 Pls No H8 07:14, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
- The articles sourced should somewhat be held to Misplaced Pages's own standards. This is a fringe point being made. It takes up valuable server space and adds nothing of value to the article. It should be removed completely. --DSA510 Pls No H8 06:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
False allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment
Highly disruptive reopening of a settled topic with strong BLP implications. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I seriously cannot believe we are starting this topic again. We can't slap the False into the title because the allegations that the a friendship existed were true. We have to define that the allegations that favourable coverage were given were false; That however cannot be done in a single heading. Avono (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I've restored full protection. An immediate edit war upon the end of page protection regarding a significant aspect of the controversy clearly indicates the need. Gamaliel (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC) Thank you,Gamaliel. As you were doing this, I was posting at AN/I asking someone -- anyone -- to do exactly that. You're a prince. The hatting of this thread really comes across as strange. If we're not able to discuss a key section of the article, how are we supposed to improve/fix/settle the article? Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:32, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I have unhatted, Red Pen of Doom should absolutely not be hatting any discussion. It also violates WP:BLPTALK. Tutelary (talk) 19:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
So gamergate IS about prurient interests in women's sex lives? I thought it was about ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Reviewing the bidding again, as requested.. The page is unprotected this morning, after an overnight spasm of WP:FORUM speculation by DSA. Immediately after it's unprotected, we are asked to inquire into Zoe Quinn’s sex life, which has already been exhaustively discussed here. Is there something unethical? No. (again) Is there some source somewhere what says something might be unethical? (no) Can't we find anything bad to say? (no) Can we just say "allegations were made?" (no) Can we substitute "unfounded allegations" for "false allegations"? (maybe) Should this be on the talk page? (no) But OMG WP:BLPTALK !!!!! Can't hat! We must have more discussion of Zoe Quinn's sex life, as prominently as possible, because ... why exactly?! Oh -- and what other GG victims have sex lives we can discuss? (Hint: DSA tried to start that last night.) But its all fine, 'cause DSA says he got doxxed just like Ruylong, and WP:BLPTALK, and we mustn't misquote the nice admin about no static image can readily depict rape, because (oh yeah) it's really important that we spend a few thousand words to distinguish whether to call it a "rape meme" or a "rape joke" or "sodomy" because sodomy is totally like rape and it's all icky (as the respected admin reminded us repeatedly) but what are you going to do? Let me walk right up to the edge of WP:CIVIL, because the very edge is the only place we can decently stand: The behavior of pro-GG wikipedians on this page over the past 36 hours has been disheartening, appalling, and a disgrace to what was once a noble project. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Arb breakThe issue overall is that when we mention "allegations", we have two allegations that we can talk to (under the scope of BLP and what good RSes give us):
The former was proven true by Kotaku, Quinn and Grayson, in a public manner. The latter has clear lack of evidence (no review of DQ on Kotaku, and Grayson hasn't mentioned her game in anything he's written since the relationship started) to be presumed false by all sources that matter. So the issue, saying "false allegations" is not accurate because one was at least true. On the other hand if we are limiting it to the single accusation of positive press, then "false" is correct, as we currently have in the body This led to false allegations from Quinn's detractors in the gaming community that the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of Quinn's game, Depression Quest. But in the section title, "false assuations" is not correct, and while we could say "false accusation", there are several others accusations made (that we will not repeat) that GGers have also focused on, and while these have not had anywhere close to the same visibility of the main one, they have generally been considered unfounded or tangent to the matter at hand, but they do exist. Thus a word that is near to "false" but less "absolute" would be the better wording choice for the section title, such as "Unproven allegations...". --MASEM (t) 20:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
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False allegations against Grayson and subsequent harassment
Highly disruptive reopening of a settled topic with strong BLP implications. |
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Why are we (again, still) discussing Zoe Quinn’s sex life? Zoe Quinn did nothing that was either (a) wrong or (b) any of our business. This will not, apparently, lead the sex-squad tag team from asserting that there's some sort of unproven sexual allegation that we need to explore in exhaustive depth. Proposal: since all sources agree that Zoe Quinn was blameless, let's rewrite the section without her. Journalist Grayson was alleged to have had a relationship with a game developer whose work he would review. The allegation would still have to be clearly stated to have been false, but we could leave Zoe Quinn out of the matter entirely since she did nothing wrong. Of course we will do no such thing, because ethics! (And we're terrorists now, forsooth, according to DSA’s swan song on this page.) MarkBernstein (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
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Stop with the hat war
No more hat-warring, bring it to an admin or noticeboard instead. It would be silly to get sanctioned for warring over a talk page hat. Dreadstar ☥ 21:26, 23 November 2014 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Enough: @startship.paint, we're at or past the 3RR threshold. Please stop this silly protest against hatting BLP violations which ought, in point of fact, to be revdel'd. If the sanctions are to have any real effect, little edit wars like this need to be sanctioned. MarkBernstein (talk) 01:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- I did one revert. I am simply trying to stop this silly battleground mentality. From my point of view every one of Avono, Masem and Thargor were discussing in good faith. Instead the hatting treats their discussion as highly disruptive and presents that as a fact. Mark, you attacked "pro-GG editors", which you labelled a "disgrace" in the hatted discussion, and you even attacked Masem on your blog. Legitimate discussion should not be censored, I don't recall anyone seriously arguing that the specific allegations against Quinn's sex life are true, so where indeed are the BLP violations? They've only said that the relationship (not the review) was true, which has been affirmed by reliable sources. starship.paint ~ regal 02:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- I would like to note that it appear that both comments appear incorrect and that there is an issue with the current hatted discussion anyways. The two discussions are hatted at 16:16 and at 16:18 by Tony Sidaway. Afterwards, Starship.paint makes two separate edits to both of the topics that were hatted; one is at 18:30 and the other is at 18:31. According to WP:3RR, "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." This is a series of consecutive edits that can be claimed to undo the edits made by Tony Sidaway, so that is the first revert by Starship.paint. Tony would revert those edits at 18:58, which afterward Starship.paint reverts at 19:57 for their second revert. Tarc makes the final revert at 20:15 and that should be that.
- Originally, I was going to ask how this benefitted the article, but there is something I noticed thanks to MarkBernstein making this topic. After Tony hatted the discussion, Mark made two edits to the discussion; one is at 16:22 and the second is at 16:28 with the edit summary reading, "tucking own edit into the hat -- simultaneous edits." Considering the hat states to not modify the discussion, would you be will to explain what you meant in the edit summary or would you remove those edits from the hatted discussion? That aside, I would recommend to Starship.paint please not edit a discussion that has been hatted and for MarkBernstein to report a possible violation to the proper avenue. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:18, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Super Goku V: - Firstly, WP:3RR refers to one editor reverting thrice in one day, not multiple editors producing a series of three reverts. Secondly, my first edit for 18:30 and 18:31 did not undo TS' hatting and no text was removed, so I don't think it constitutes as a revert. starship.paint ~ regal 14:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- simple enough. I added a comment to the bottom of the unrated section, edit conflicting with the final hat. A quirk of the versioning system resolved the conflict, leaving my final word unhatted. I would have been fine with that, but of course the intent was to hat everything, not everything but me. So I modestly declined to have the last word. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein Huh, I thought that it was the full edit due to what it shows in the revision, but I can agree that the system did have issues with the edit due to the timestamp issue. Thank you for the response. --Super Goku V (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint Well, it is an issue that does have some flexibility. I took the meaning of "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part (...)" as the issue for the first considering that you undid what was written and replaced the beginning with what you had written. As I have said, it does have some flexibility, but it could possibility be taken as a disruptive edit. Also, I was claiming that your edit at 18:30 and at 18:31 were two edits that were made consecutively and thus only a single revert instead of two separate reverts. But, I will thank you for the reply. --Super Goku V (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- simple enough. I added a comment to the bottom of the unrated section, edit conflicting with the final hat. A quirk of the versioning system resolved the conflict, leaving my final word unhatted. I would have been fine with that, but of course the intent was to hat everything, not everything but me. So I modestly declined to have the last word. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
"Conspiracy theories in the United States"
When was adding this category discussed? The only mention of it being labeled a conspiracy theory is not even about the movement itself, it's a single mention by Leigh Alexander, someone involved in the controversy saying some of it is based "on bizarre conspiracy theories", yet another attempt at controlling the narrative, albeit this one a sneaky one. This should be removed until a consensus is reached Loganmac (talk) 02:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, the core of GG is described as a conspiracy theory throughout the article's sources (and other reliable sources). I'll put some of the examples at the end to make this more readable, but basically, I think that it's uncontroversial -- obviously most GG sources allege a conspiracy (accusations of collision and conspiracy are at the core of what they feel are ethical breaches, after all); it's just that they dislike having that framed as 'conspiracy theory' as opposed to, I guess, 'conspiracy fact'. But either way, just a quick look over the article's sources show that most of the ones we're relying on for a general overview describe GG as being based around conspiracy theories (this is just from a random grab of some of them -- I'm not going to read every single one of the 40+ sources, but these are all clearly from reliable publications.) If anything, I think that these make it clear that we should cover the conspiracy-theory nature of the controversy in more detail rather than just via categorization:
- The Verge's article describes "The conspiracy theory at the core of Gamergate..."
- The quoted response from DiGRA likewise describes it as a conspiracy theory.
- The Guardian article says: "And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the games press, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites with vitriolic comments, withdraw entirely."
- The Daily Beast article says: "On one side are calls for reason and equality; on the other are the conspiracy theorists who fund a “documentary” intended to “shed light on the truth: that the SJWs have been the ones using manipulation and intimidation to push their agenda forward and that the mainstream media has accepted their story uncritically.”
- The New York Magazine article: "...I was inundated with angry tweets from the movement’s indignant supporters. You don’t get it, they insisted. This is about ethics in journalism. They often pointed me to long, pretty involved conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things, that various gaming websites were colluding to attack the “gamer” identity they held so dear, or that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage."
- The Week describes GG as existing in a "hermetically sealed bubble of conspiracy nonsense".
- There's many more (even the Forbes article, which IIRC we're not using at the moment, makes repeated references to the movement being based around conspiracy theories, describing the earliest video as one that "...speculates on a feminist/social justice illuminati that are taking over gaming, and accused Quinn’s parent company, Silverstring Media, of being a part of that conspiracy.") Gamergate's accusations are described as conspiracy theories throughout most of the reliable sources that make up the basis of the current article. --Aquillion (talk) 03:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Hatting off-topic commentary about others and WP:SOAP, both of which violate WP:GS/GG, keep it up and there will be sanctions. Dreadstar ☥ 08:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC) |
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Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from Loganmac, who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by Aquillion patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as Aquillion usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage. Enough. This has got to stop. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
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If that many sources use variations on "conspiracy theory" wording that category should probably stay. I think there's less of a case to be made for the "Social Justice" category though. This article is ridiculously out of place in that category page, and that category seems really bizarre for this article. Hustlecat 05:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- the relation is the "anti social justice" motivations and actions as described by as many sources. is "anti social justice" a cat? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The US bit is totally wrong. There's been quite a bit of coverage from British sources, and a reasonable number of nonenglish articles. HalfHat 16:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
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Remove Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states and replace with Category:Conspiracy_theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. HalfHat 16:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit protected}}
template. Oppose as Category:Conspiracy theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic doesn't exist, whereas Category:Conspiracy theories in the United States does. — {{U|Technical 13}} 17:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I meant Remove "Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states" and replace with "Category:Conspiracy_theories" based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. HalfHat 20:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Funny, I read it the same way as Technical 13. Halfhat, your proposal seems reasonable and has my support. starship.paint ~ regal 09:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- support changing to broader "conspiracy theories" cat - i have never met a conspiracy theory that found an international boarder something it didnt want to hop and they nearly all end up with "international bankers" or "CIA and KGB". In this case we have the international scholar organization DIGRA based in Sweden and BMW based in Germany. Sarkeesian is a Canadian American and Quinn live(s)(d) in Canada. Yiannopoulos is British. There seems little that makes this limited to "United States". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Agree I'm not convinced the category is necessary, but if we are going to have it then the online nature of the movement precludes it from being strictly limited to the United States. Muscat Hoe (talk) 18:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 24 November 2014 (wikilink to Social Justice Warrior)
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The phrase "Social Justice Warrior" is used a few times in the article. Would someone mind wikilinking to the article on the phrase? Juno (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Given that the term has both negative connotations, and is a neogalism, I would think we shouldn't have a separate article on it; as I see it is at AFD, I'd wait to see the result that if the article stays, then a link is fine, but if it's deleted or merged, it is unneeded. --MASEM (t) 07:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Interestingly feminazi does have an article, though it may have just not been nominated for deletion yet. HalfHat 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's been around since the 1990s so has passed the NEO aspect. The article also gives a balanced view on the word's origins and its criticism to give it context and avoid being a POV article. I'm not saying it's perfect but its got more legs to stand on than the "SJW" article presently. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Interestingly feminazi does have an article, though it may have just not been nominated for deletion yet. HalfHat 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft
I made this revert (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --TS 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. HalfHat 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — Strongjam (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? HalfHat 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest gender-based. Instead of severe we could use something like Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ..., but I think we can just go with severe or intense I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word rhetoric though, I also thought sentiment might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like These attacks often include what is reported as ..., but I'm not a big fan of that. — Strongjam (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — Strongjam (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. HalfHat 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." WP:OR / WP:V / WP:UNDUE are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how we achieve ""neutrality". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Because you are wrong. We don't agree with people. Basically all RSes say Hitler was evil, but we do not. HalfHat 20:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- back to the "but Hitler!" ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Back to dismissing valid argument because of the frequency they're used instead of addressing the points? HalfHat 12:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- "but Hitler" is not a valid argument. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. HalfHat 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, there is. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- In most cases Godwin's law applies in the sense that the discussion would be circling the drain, but the application here is to compare how we (WP) have covered other topics where there is a clear public opinion that swings one way, and note the tone and neutrality that those articles take - no article on a controversial or hated figure or group comes out speaking of the public opinion's of a person/group in WP's voice, clearly assigning where the public opinion comes from, or holding off on criticizing the group/person until later in the article, sourcing all that. Take for example Westboro Baptist Church, which the first two sentences immediately speak to the negative impression it has but using language to clearly establisht that that is how the public sees it and not as a fact (eg we don't say "The church is a hate group" but instead "The church is widely described as a hate group", keeping WP impartial to the matter). The same logic and approach must apply here. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, there is. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. HalfHat 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- "but Hitler" is not a valid argument. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Back to dismissing valid argument because of the frequency they're used instead of addressing the points? HalfHat 12:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- back to the "but Hitler!" ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Because you are wrong. We don't agree with people. Basically all RSes say Hitler was evil, but we do not. HalfHat 20:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." WP:OR / WP:V / WP:UNDUE are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how we achieve ""neutrality". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I would support your suggestions. Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ... is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.
- Alright, lets wait for a bit more feedback as I suppose this will be contentions. I'm still a little tepid about "gender-based harassment", I agree it seems ambiguous and I don't want to white-wash or downplay anything. — Strongjam (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah it's tough to get the balance between not downplaying, and not making them overly loaded. HalfHat 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, lets wait for a bit more feedback as I suppose this will be contentions. I'm still a little tepid about "gender-based harassment", I agree it seems ambiguous and I don't want to white-wash or downplay anything. — Strongjam (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. Tutelary (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- please provide sources that call this "gender based harassment" that are on an equivalent reliability and number as those that use "misogynistic harassment" - otherwise this is going no where. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm pretty luke-warm on the 'gender-based harassment' phrasing (I know I suggested it..) We'd probably be violating WP:SYNTH by using it, and I think we're best leaving it as-is unless someone can come up with better phrasing. If NPOV is a concern then we can always assign the view to the sources instead. I would be interested in feedback for the second suggestion, or maybe that's best left to another section. — Strongjam (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- We're not limited to using the exact phrasing from the sources. HalfHat 20:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we are not "limited" to the language of the sources, when the sources are OVERWHELMINGLY utilizing particular terminology and similarly overwhelmingly NOT using a particular other terminology, there needs to be some great rationale for us to use the alternative, and some bogus hand wave at "neutrality" is not that rationale - NPOV does not in any way promote "when all of the sources view something as X, we should present it as Y". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- That's a total strawman. The problem with that term is that it is loaded and implies opinion. HalfHat 21:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we are not "limited" to the language of the sources, when the sources are OVERWHELMINGLY utilizing particular terminology and similarly overwhelmingly NOT using a particular other terminology, there needs to be some great rationale for us to use the alternative, and some bogus hand wave at "neutrality" is not that rationale - NPOV does not in any way promote "when all of the sources view something as X, we should present it as Y". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --TS 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that while "severe" harassment can certainly be supported without quotes (we have plenty of reliable documented facts about this), "misogynistic" can't be - that's how its been characterized widely, certainly, but it's also an observation; stating it factually is heading into "weasel word" territory where we would normally need a source to be clear about that, but we really don't want to flood the lead with sources again. The current wording Quinn was then subjected to severe misogynistic harassment, including false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game. A number of gaming industry members supportive of Quinn were also subjected to harassment, threats of violence, and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing); some of them fled their homes. The targets were mostly women, and included Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu. can be restated without losing anything but staying in a better impartial WP voice for the lead (where we want to avoid anything close to that) with Quinn was then was falsely accused of using her relationship to receive positive coverage of her game. Simultaneously, she and a number of gaming industry members that supported here against these claims were the subject of a severe harassment campaign by online users under the Gamergate banner, including threats of violence and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing), and forced some to flee their homes. The targets of this harassment were mostly female, including Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu, leading the industry and international media to broadly condemn the harassment attacks as sexist and misogynistic. Note that this clearly states where what we would consider "weasel words" originate from which can clearly be ID'd in the body with sources. All the same info and key words are there, but just where there can be slippage into opinion, it's clear where it came from. --MASEM (t) 02:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate is rooted in misogyny, as borne out by reliable sources. We can't move away from that. Tarc (talk) 02:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- That is the press's wide opinion, but only opinion. There is no factual evidence of what started GG. --MASEM (t) 02:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate is rooted in misogyny, as borne out by reliable sources. We can't move away from that. Tarc (talk) 02:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Verifiability, not truth. The press says it is rooted in misogyny, we report what they say. Tarc (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- "Gamergate is misogynistic" and "Gamergate is claimed to by misogynistic" are both verified statements, but one is impartial while the other speaks something that is a clear opinion in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, our articles reflect the mainstream, predominant viewpoint of reliable sources and relegate fringe viewpoints to lesser prominence, if any. It is indisputable that the mainstream, predominant viewpoint about Gamergate is that it's rooted in misogyny. Our article must reflect that truth. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- We reflect balance and weight, but not tone and emotion as we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. --MASEM (t) 03:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- It is a fact, verifiable in reliable sources, not a "tone" or "emotion," that Gamergate was rooted in misogyny. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Alleging that Gamergate is rooted in misogyny is using a contentious label and requires attribution to the source(s). Muscat Hoe (talk) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's not contentious — it's the effectively-unanimous conclusion of reliable sources. Views to the contrary are, at this point, fringe. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Views to the contrary were never part of my argument so fringe is not in play here. This is about how we ascribe the misogynist label. If RS weren't nearly unanimous we would avoid usage altogether due to contentious labeling (and it is contentious considering "bigot" is listed as a prime example - I doubt anyone would argue that "misogyny" doesn't fall under the umbrella of bigotry). However since sources are widespread we can use it but it necessitates in-text attribution per the guideline. Muscat Hoe (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Are you really sure that "The New York Times, The Guardian, The Irish Times, Newsweek, Time, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, The LA Times, Gawker, Salon,Le Monde, On The Media, Australian Broadcast Company, BBC, CNN, NPR, The Hindu, and every other major media identify gamergate as misogynistic. CHS says its just boys being boys. " is better? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Views to the contrary were never part of my argument so fringe is not in play here. This is about how we ascribe the misogynist label. If RS weren't nearly unanimous we would avoid usage altogether due to contentious labeling (and it is contentious considering "bigot" is listed as a prime example - I doubt anyone would argue that "misogyny" doesn't fall under the umbrella of bigotry). However since sources are widespread we can use it but it necessitates in-text attribution per the guideline. Muscat Hoe (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's not contentious — it's the effectively-unanimous conclusion of reliable sources. Views to the contrary are, at this point, fringe. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Alleging that Gamergate is rooted in misogyny is using a contentious label and requires attribution to the source(s). Muscat Hoe (talk) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- It is a fact, verifiable in reliable sources, not a "tone" or "emotion," that Gamergate was rooted in misogyny. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- We reflect balance and weight, but not tone and emotion as we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. --MASEM (t) 03:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, our articles reflect the mainstream, predominant viewpoint of reliable sources and relegate fringe viewpoints to lesser prominence, if any. It is indisputable that the mainstream, predominant viewpoint about Gamergate is that it's rooted in misogyny. Our article must reflect that truth. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- "Gamergate is misogynistic" and "Gamergate is claimed to by misogynistic" are both verified statements, but one is impartial while the other speaks something that is a clear opinion in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Verifiability, not truth. The press says it is rooted in misogyny, we report what they say. Tarc (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Website
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We should add gamergate.me in the article as it is a aggregate website on GamerGate. - abhilashkrishn 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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Incoming FTC Guidelines
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Apparently FTC is preparing an update to its guidelines and it is being associated to GamerGate. Is this information relevant to the article, if it gets verified by a trusted outlet or journalist? Eldritcher (talk) 00:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
Unfounded allegations?
This is awkwardly phrased as allegations by definition are not based on facts or evidence, making the wording redundant. The RS's are mixed on usage between forms of accuse and allege but I would recommend False accusations if we're going to have a term in the section header as it appears to be a much more common phrasing. Muscat Hoe (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 25 November 2014
It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at Gamergate controversy. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |
Please replicate this edit from the draft in the mainspace article, in enforcement of WP:NFCC. There is no evidence this image (File:Christina Hoff Sommers.jpg) is actually free. Up for deletion at commons. CIreland (talk) 13:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support removal. I've checked the commons image, and the licensing appears faulty. I would think that Sommers would be open to providing a free image for us to use but until then we need to remove the present one as it will likely be deleted off commons. (Normally a bot would remove deleted Commons images but I think full prot, it won't work on that). --MASEM (t) 15:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Could someone try to contact her? HalfHat 15:54, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
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