Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:32, 26 November 2014

Notice of obsolescence:
Community sanctions in this area of conflict have been superseded by an Arbitration Committee sanctions regime. As a result, this community sanctions-related page is now obsolete, is retained only for historical reference, and should not be modified. For more information about Arbitration Committee sanctions, see this page. For the specific Committee decision that rescinded or modified these community sanctions, see WP:ARBGG.

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Archived requests

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Tarc

Request concerning DungeonSiegeAddict510

Topic Ban?

Masem

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Masem

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Masem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Gamergate_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=634848471

Masem: “one static image cannot readily imply rape” and argues we must not follow the sources in this. In the context of a controversy over anonymous rape threats being sent to female software developers in order to persuade them to leave the field, this is clearly against policy though I'm uncertain precisely which policy forbids editors and administrators from edits that would bring scorn and ridicule upon the project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=635058861&oldid=635058803

Regarding discussion of the sex life of one of the female software developers who received threats, at AN/I Masem writes that "You're claiming I'm trying to drag more of her life into this which is absolutely bogus - I know other other allegations exist but will not state what those on WP are because that would be a BLP violation at the current time."

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=635088283&oldid=635082662

Later, he writes that “we need to be aware that there are other things the proGg side would like WP to say but we are nowhere close to having any sources to even speak to them, much less cover them. I don't believe any of said things are true in any remote way...” (emphasis mine)

This regards a protracted edit war on the talk page over whether the discussion of Zoe Quinn’s sex life, which Masem had argued was indispensable, could be hatted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AGamergate_controversy&diff=634978574&oldid=634978105

In the discussion to which the AN/I comments above refers, editors had (moments after page protection ended) changed the heading "False Allegations Against Zoe Quinn" to remove "False". Masem wrote: "No, the claims, while based on weak evidence, has some foundation. But the claims have certainly be "refuted" by and large - the claims were made but the press has considered what the involved parties have said to be truthful so the claims were refuted."

This claim is unsupported by any reliable source.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

none known -- I don’t have any idea how to find these.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

notified

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I submit this with a heavy heart and scant hope. I undertook to edit GamerGate reluctantly, having been scarred by Jews and Communism, but felt it was a necessary responsibility to my colleagues who were receiving threats of assault, rape, and murder in order to convince them to leave their profession. We’ve had endless hours of inquiry into the sex lives of blameless software developers, and Misplaced Pages is being used here to rehash every iota of scandal and insinuation. Here, we have insinuations that there are more scandals and insinuations to come (but Masem can’t tell us what).

In conclusion: please review the talk page for the past 72 hours. User:Masem has been instrumental in leading this discussion and in insisting that it drag on and on, as well as in his WP:FRINGE theories that sending rape imagery to women who are receiving threats is somehow better if it's a joke or if the image might concern anal rather than vaginal penetration. That this discussion should be required here is shameful, and after a long night’s thought I conclude that, while I am far from the ideal person to file this complaint, I cannot say I fear any WP:BOOMERANG: if this sort of talk page discussion is what Misplaced Pages wants, then the heavier your censure the better I shall be pleased. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:00, 23 November 2014 (UTC) Program Chair ACM Hypertext 97, ACM Hypertext 98, ACM Wikisym '08, ACM Web Science '13.

As the question of "righting great wrongs" has been raised, perhaps I might be indulged with an opportunity to explain the wrongs that, in my view, ought to be righted, on User:MarkBernstein.

Discussion concerning Masem

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Masem

There is nothing at all actionable against the sanctions here. There may be statements MB doesn't like, but that's not anything under sanctions or that we would censor or block per BLP.

1. On the 4chan image: There was an ongoing edit war of how to describe the 4chan image, but no one was discussing it on the talk page. I took initiate to open it. Now, you can agree or disagree about my statement, but that's the whole point of discussion to establish what the proper wording should be. So unactionable (and actually needed to be done to stop the edit war and get a consensus on the matter).
2. On other allegations: There are allegations that the proGG have made that I am aware exist that when proGGs talk about this WP article, they are concerned this article doesn't reflect those. These are not allegations I have about her, nor do I believe any of the proGG allegations. There are no sources to even include those, much less talk about the details, but knowing they exist without making any claims is absolutely not a BLP violation. In fact we have to be aware what other articles - if they become targets of offsite editing pushes, need to be watched due to these allegations.
   In addition, we have to discuss in the article, and how to present it, the core allegation that launched the GG "movement", and the series of attacks. It is not a BLP violation to discuss this and how to word it properly given that every mainstream source on GG has discussed the basic accusation, naming all parties involved. It very much helps that there is general full agreement in the press that the accusation is refuted. BLP does not prevent talking about accussations, but requires that the best possible sourcing must be in place to avoid any implications created by WP or weak RSes, and that's exactly the case here. Again, we're supposed to be working to develop consensus instead of edit warring the page or the draft.

There is nothing actionable here on Mark's claims. On the other hand, Mark's claim that I'm coordinating a brigade of offsite proGG editors without any evidence (among other statements made as well as twisting/misquoting me) is definitely a personal attack against me --MASEM (t) 18:05, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

To add to these, Mark has engaged in off-wiki personal attacks against me: . (I strongly contest the idea I'm a "rape apologist". I'm trying to keep WP's voice neutral, neither sympathetic nor critical; I'm just as upset as most about the harassment aspects, but that is something we can't write to in WP's voice). --MASEM (t) 16:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

BTW: Misplaced Pages is not here to right great wrongs. We are supposed to be neutral, meaning we're not supposed to be taking a side. Trying to use the GG article as a platform to support that were harassed and condemn those that did it is absolutely the wrong use of WP. --MASEM (t) 18:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC) (replies moved to User:Masem/GGGS to stay w/in 500 words, not critical to above statement)

Statement by Thargor Orlando

Please boomerang this onto MarkBernstein. With DSA topic banned, MB is the only person left with significantly bad behavior at and surrounding the GamerGate article, as opposed to Masem's reasonable (albeit line-toeing at times) comments that took care to discuss the topic appropriately.

Compare Masen's edits to MarkBernstein's, who dove right in with repeatedly mentioning specific allegations he also considers a BLP violation () and attacks on myself () Masem (), and others/in general () with no basis in fact (such as claiming editors are "pro-GG" or anything similar).

For someone so concerned with BLP, his willingness to misrepresent a notable living person as "right wing" in a pejorative manner () goes part and parcel with how he's treating editors he disagrees with. If the sanctions are truly for everybody, MarkBernstein needed a topic ban 24 hours ago. He clearly cannot edit the article within the parameters of BLP or civility due to the emotional investment he declares (). It's long overdue. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding User:Aprock's misleading claim, the discussion resulted in my point of view being explicitly clear. I don't want to believe this (or this or this) were left out by Aprock on purpose.

Yes, I believe an article should reflect what is actually going on. If that's a crime, this article is even further beyond hope than I thought. Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: you say you're concerned about that edit, and you fail to explain why, unless you're arguing that we should assert evidenceless-claims without question. Regardless, an examination of the thread figured out the problem between the claim that is disproven and the claims that are simply unfounded, and was resolved here, and the article conflates the two for reasons I don't care to speculate on. I am still troubled by the comparative lack of attention to MarkBernstein's edits, of which there are literally dozens of problems. It would be good to see some resolution on that, as this has gone far too long without being addressed, a simple warning implies he would be unaware of what's going on here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: this is "running out of steam" because many of us are waiting to see when the sanctions are going to be used on the bad behavior of those that have been detailed here. User:MarkBernstein might say he's no longer contributing, but that doesn't seem to be true given his actions of the last 12+ hours in telling others how an off-site group is looking to "deploy" certain editors, which certainly isn't true for me at least. Again, I ask you how much more of this we should be tolerating. These sanctions have been enacted on users for much less, but somehow Mark should be immune to them why? You don't have to do the digging, we've done it for you. Please act. Please show that the sanctions are for everyone. Thargor Orlando (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Avono

This is a frivolous request as There was never a discussion about Zoe Quinns sex life taking place, we were discussing the fact that she had a friendship with Zoe Quinn which was confirmed by Reliable Sources, Hell even Quinn herself admits in a Tweet that Grayson was a beta tester on Depression Quest. The discussion about the 4chan Image had to be taken place because of a previous edit war that was discussed in this enforcement page (are we really having the discussion that a set of colours can represent rape?). MarkBernstein was warned by Multiple Users to stop making personal attacks and continued to make unfounded accusations of Canvassing. I request That this enforcement is to be boomeranged onto MarkBernstein because this was a bad faith request (he has also baited numerous Users me and Tutelary to make an enforcement request on him ,) Avono (talk) 18:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: Apparently that was me, but only because I failed to consult the Archives before making that edit; Yes I should be trouted about that, but that is not enough to assume I maliciously did it. I will happily in the future consult the talk page first, but that is sadly pointless now as It was completely locked down again. Avono (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I already explained why I did the "Unproven" edit here and as I previously said I will consult the Archives first in the future before making any edits to the mainspace article. Avono (talk) 23:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Tutelary

I don't see any violation of the remedies here. MarkBernstein seems to be trying to say that Masem arguing against his points is therefore a violation of the sanctions. MarkBerstein's hands are also not clean, as evident by all of the diffs of baseless accusations and unsubstantiated claims of others culminating off site. A boomerang would be appropriate, in this instance. Masem's edits do not violate any of the remedies. You can also see in his own reply and other diffs that MarkBernstein clearly cannot be neutral in this conflict and is in effect advocating for the accused, something he has stated incessantly. This is incompatible with WP:NPOV and WP:PROMOTION. Tutelary (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Since they've asked for diffs, here:

• Making allegations that other editors are colluding off site on the talk page for gamergate
• Soapboxing and general ranting on the Gamergate talk page, with no discussion of content in site
• Starts off about content, but comments about others and more soapboxing
• Poking fun at a topic banned editor and inappropriate hyperbole about Terrorists on the gamergate talk page
• Making unsubstanciated claims about the administrator Masem
• User making allegations that Masem is coordinating off site with 8chan with no proof
• A ranty speal on the talk page with nothing to do with content
• Deleting an already hatted section, a violation of WP:TPO Tutelary (talk) 21:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Plainly making a point on his username page insinuating about this dispute

Tutelary (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC) Addendum MarkBernstein also has a website, which has linked from his userspace. It's revelations are astounding, ranting about the administrator Masem, having emotional appeals and support of the people involved in GamerGate, the whole lot. The fact that he filed this report trying to get Masem sanctioned correlates with his comments on his website and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Link: http://www.markbernstein.org/ Tutelary (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

This request has the makings of a case for soapboxing on BLP matters, though I'm not sure Masem is the worst offender. The message here is that the talk page and all related discussions need to be watched. This article should not be difficult to edit because there are many reliable sources. Editors who want instead to dredge up long-settled BLP matters in this way should be gently (or not so gently) dissuaded. --TS 19:08, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Ed Johnson asks for clarification, I offer this reopening of a long settled BLP discussion in which the irrelevant matter of somebody's private life is openly discussed on the talk page. The editors involved are Avono, Thargor Orlando and Masem. That link is an on-page snapshot and it's been hatted. If you want diffs, they are as follows: Avono, Thargor Orlando, and Masem. This is the start of a pointless barrage of BLP-sensitive discussion from mostly unreliable sources. It's difficult to see how anyone would want to reopen this discussion which was long ago settled by reliable sources, now reflected in the article, declaring the allegations of journalistic corruption involving the principals false.

Assuming good faith (and I see no reason to doubt this), these editors seem to need some guidance in appropriate editing on an issue of public interest where the privacy of individuals is also a priority.

The main problem here, though, is soapboxing. The reliable sources settled this weeks ago so delving into people's private affairs in search of material to write about in the article, or merely for gossip, is terribly inappropriate and suggestive, I hate to say, of carelessness. --TS 23:35, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement re Masem by TheRedPenOfDoom

The pretty version of this with excerpted quotes is trimming to the 500 words will leave just diffs and interpretations

Masem's relentless push to implement some bizarre application of NPOV is probably deserving of review.

• We can start with his initiation of the RfC "Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? " speaks for itself.
• In this section particularly starting with his comment about the sources :
  • "" In Masem's comment and the discussion that follows he is pushing the idea the the passing comment about GG must be given the same weight as all the other content about GG that the sources provide.
  • Masem is again insisting that we do not follow the sources and give excessive weight to a portion of the GG.
  • also from another reply in the same post --MASEM asserts that we cannot follow the mainstream sources because it is "bias"
  • more assertions that the mainstream media are bias and so we cannot their overwhelming conclusions and must give specific voices under GG more value.
• then there is this section in which he repeatedly argues that we cannot put the mainstream interpretation first because somehow that will "bias" against the GG's claims.
  • "
• one of the many NPOV discussion sections
  • ". again, Masem never specifying where any "impartial " language in the presentation actually is, merely that it somehow exists by following the sources.
• after presenting a proposal for re-phrasing the lead
  • --MASEM presents his proposal for the lead to which TaraInDC appropriately responds "Your proposed lead para is distinctly parial (sic) in that it gives undue weight to an aspect of the 'controversy' that has essentially no reliable sources.... -- TaraInDC (talk) 18:15, 10 November 2014 (UTC) "
• then here
  • "... because regardless of what RS say about the nature of the movement,... an explicit directive to edit the article contrary to what the reliable sources say.

-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:31, 24 November 2014 (UTC) @Masem: while edit warring to insert bizzaroworld interpretations of policy would have been worse, the tendentious editing to push a version where where we discard the WP:RS and actively subvert WP:NPOV#UNDUE to "give an 'impartial' view for GG" is " repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process."-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC) @Masem: that there are multiple users spewing the "per Masem" spin on your upside down view of RS and UNDUE is perhaps less a sign of your non-disruption and more a sign that you are leading and stirring up disruption. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC) @Masem: To claim that you are not pushing a "well the reliable sources x but we should say y" is belied by your numerous postings pushing exactly that logic - as per your RfC for one: "Technically this all fits within our sourcing and content policies, but there's something wrong when it can be argued "well, there's no proGG sources, but there's plenty of antiGG sources, so lets keep adding those"... I have tried to point out that we should be clinically/detached neutral, which means we should not be repeating the praising that the antiGG side and berating the proGG side. "] -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement Pudeo

Nothing wrong done by Masem. I agree with other editors who think this could boomerang onto MarkBernstein. It seems he's here only to participate in drama and culture wars. His user page is a personal essay how Misplaced Pages is doomed to end (The Coming End Of Misplaced Pages). That is clearly WP:NOTHERE, and definitely not a helpful participant in sections related Gamergate sanctions either.--Pudeo' 23:32, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Starship.paint

So MarkBernstein wants Masem banned for ... civilly discussing and presenting arguments on the talk page? Regarding MarkBernstein's first diff, Masem was arguing to use "rape joke", which was what the sources present. (1) Regarding MarkBernstein's fourth diff, Masem is right to say that the claims against Zoe Quinn have "some foundation", from the GamerGate article itself, Kotaku's editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo affirmed the existence of a relationship the source - Quinn was claimed to have a relationship with a games journalist and that claim is true.

I'd just like to make known that MarkBernstein might be too close in real life to targets of GamerGate, this might influence his editing here. He twice admits that it his colleagues have faced threats of rape from GamerGate, with being more explicit. (2 and 3). I think this has led MarkBernstein getting too emotional - he freely admits he is getting angry. (4 and 5).

Perhaps this anger has led to MarkBernstein openly accusing editors of collusion (implied to be with outside forces), serious allegations indeed. Here he claims that Masem was closely coordinated with a small group of associated editors who play assigned roles: one is always careful to claim neutrality (while invariably favoring more discussion of Zoe Quinn's private life), one is more aggressive, a third is now topic-banned. (6) Here he starts attacking editors who have not even participated in the discussion yet - Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive (7) Later, he essentially accuses me of being a meatpuppet commanded by offsite coordinations. really interesting that starship shows up a few minutes after another user, one who makes the same arguments in the same tone, is topic-banned ... we all know they've been coordinating offsite - (8) These personal attacks on editors' integrity without any proof should cease and be retracted immediately. starship.paint ~ regal 00:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Protonk

• Posts about the "journalism pov" causing systemic bias in sourcing against GG:"They are part of the media so they are going to be reporting this from the journalism POV", including "The higher quality RS are far less biased because of their separation from the video game sector but they still have some because GG, broadly, is questioning journalism..." The full quote notes that this is marginal on sources like NYT, but everyone is indicted at least a little.
• This 11 November ANI discussion includes a back and forth between Masem and several involved and uninvolved editors as they try to explain masem's strained application of FRINGE.
• A 15 November Essentially a push to write the article from a fringe perspective

All of this is after a long running RFC Masem started regarding "bias" arising from reliable sources agreeing. Masem is a prolific editor and has contributed to many talk page discussions about GG. I could find a half dozen diffs like this tomorrow, and the day after that. In almost all cases (save for a recent period when they admitted "but ethics" was a fringe view, a position which has since changed I believe) the push will be the same, even if the content under discussion is different.

Some of this is legitimately a content dispute, but it trends away from that when an editor has been strenuously arguing for weeks to effectively invert FRINGE on a particular article. Protonk (talk) 17:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: The problem is this isn't acute. We could go back 30 days or 45 and find the same issues: Masem pushing a peculiar form of NPOV which validates GG's FRINGE justification for the movement. Protonk (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Cobbsaladin

Articles should be dispassionate presentations of fact. The Gamergate article is anything but. Masem appears to be one of the few editors striving for neutrality. Further, he's maintained patience and civility throughout. He's an exemplary editor who's done nothing to warrant sanctions. Cobbsaladin (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Personally, I have found Masem to sometimes make bad arguments, but the one thing I have found is that he makes them on both ends. He does at least try to be neutral and takes fair consideration of the concerns of both side, even if his arguments and conclusions are not often very good. Basically, he is trying to be me and is failing at it. You are not me, Masem. There can be only one. In summation, 7/10 would not topic-ban. The fact Mark, Red, and Protonk, apparently want to ban one of the more neutral editors on this issue should tell you something about them, rather than Masem.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:31, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston, Avono did not in fact make the original change to the heading. That was Tellstar in this edit and a subsequent edit. While the first was sloppy and disruptive, I don't think sanctions against Tellstar would be appropriate given the editor made exactly two edits to the article before any notification was given and none afterwards. From my perspective, any qualifier in the heading is inappropriate because the allegations go beyond just the idea of Grayson writing a review for Quinn. This is alluded to in the section, but efforts to elaborate on some of those other allegations based on coverage in reliable sources have met with significant resistance. Either way, the statement in the heading should be taken as referring to all the allegations, rather than just the one that has been proven false. In that respect it actually is not in compliance with NPOV to have such qualifiers in the heading.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@North, the whole quote from that source:

A jilted ex-boyfriend of hers posted a nearly-10,000-word screed that accused her of sleeping with a journalist for positive reviews. The claim, though false, set off a wave of outrage that eventually escalated into a campaign against all the designers and critics who have argued for making gaming culture more inclusive.

First of all, The New York Times piece makes the demonstrably false claim that the allegation of "sex for reviews" came from Gjoni, when that is not the case. Other sources do get that point correct, but this one does not so it is already a cause for concern about this specific piece. Secondly, and more importantly, the quote above does not in any way contradict what I just said. The claim that is noted as false in The New York Times is the claim of Grayson giving her positive reviews. As I said above, that is the false allegation. Other allegations have not been found false either because they are actually accurate or because no one has bothered to investigate them. The heading does not accurately reflect this fact.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

North, what you are saying is simply wrong.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Other allegations have been covered in reliable sources, just not as much.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Aprock

Reviewing the hatt'd section, it's not the behavior of Masem that stands out, but rather the behavior of Thargor Orlando, who argues ad nauseum that wikipedia use the unsourced phrasing "unfounded" to describe the false alegations:

• Unless I'm missing something in the sources, isn't the accurate description of the claim "unfounded?"
• That's why "unfounded" appears to be a better word
• So there isn't anything proving or disproving the allegations, thus they're unfounded
• I think, given what is known, that "unfounded" is what we should be using.
• thus "unfounded" seems fair
• so this accusation also appears unfounded.
• The reliable sources call the accusations false, yes. No one is disputing that. The question is how we, as a project, should refer to them in Misplaced Pages's voice given the evidence of the claim. Thus the option to use "unfounded,": This example (emphasis added) is a particularly egregious diff, with Thargor Orlando acknowledging that the reliable sources characterize the accusations but false, but wikipedia should use unfounded instead.
• there does not seem to be any other word (... than unfounded ...) that responsibly defines the situation described

This tendentious editing against sources over a single word, to transmogrify "false" into "unfounded", speaks to a spectacular zeal for introducing distortion into the article. aprock (talk) 06:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Halfhat

On the subject of righting great wrongs. You seemed to have missed the point of the policy entirely, I ask you step away from the article voluntarily, because that is not why you should be here. It's just as problematic as if a Pro-GG editor came here because they thought Kotaku acted wrongly. HalfHat 09:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I simply wanted to make a point about WP:Policy. HalfHat 21:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bosstopher

Haven't been paying much attention to this article at all lately but from what I can gather this really needs to boomerang. The sort of comments Mark is making about other editors are unacceptable. Bosstopher (talk) 15:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

@EdJohnston:, there was never any consensus to change the word "False" to begin with —neither "unproven" nor "unfounded" correctly sum up the conclusions of reliable sources, which effectively unanimously declare them to be factually false. First Tellstar edit-warred the word out as soon as the protection was lifted, then Avono joined in. No attempt was made to discuss this major change until after the edit war was commenced, wherein Avono demanded that his radical shift in the tone of the heading be treated as the default. The article should be administratively returned to describe the allegations against Quinn as "False" which was the longstanding consensus and status quo ante. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:48, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate's claim that there should be no qualifier in the heading is absolutely absurd. The allegations against Quinn have repeatedly been denounced as false by mainstream reliable sources, most recently by nothing less than The New York Times — . Describing false allegations of wrongdoing against a person as anything but false is an unacceptable violation of the biographies of living persons policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:13, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Other allegations have not been found false either because they are actually accurate or because no one has bothered to investigate them. The only allegations which have been discussed in reliable sources (which means they are the only allegations we are concerned with and the only allegations which exist for our purposes) have been determined, repeatedly, to be false. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The Devil's Advocate, what you are saying is simply wrong. See, I can write a declaratory sentence too. Except mine is actually true. If an "allegation" against a person is not discussed in reliable sources, then we don't care about it. It does not exist for Misplaced Pages's purposes. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bilby

The first diff raised by MarkBernstein isn't actionable - Masem started a discussion as a result of an edit war which he was not party to. It is a difficult topic to discuss, but it needed to be raised, and Masem wasn't unreasonable in how he handled it. In going over the discussion, though, I am surprised to see MarkBernstein saying that Masem argued "we must not follow the sources in this". In the discussion, it is pointed out that both of the sources used employ the wording recommended by Masem.

In regard to the second issue - the allegations against Quinn - I disagree with Masem's conclusion, but I don't feel that he handled the issue badly. This was (once again) the basis of edit warring in the article, and it is an issue that hasn't gone away. I wish it would, but Masem was attempting to navigate a core issue without violating BLP, and as someone who has also tried to engage on the same issue, it is a tricky thing to word. I don't think that Masem needed to make reference to the other allegations - as they are never going to be in the article I'm not convinced that they need to be raised at all - but he was trying to provide context by acknowledging their existance without describing them. I don't see anything actionable there, either - just a difficult topic that I really wish we could leave behind, but is too central to the GamerGate discussion to ignore completely.

Generally, Masem is trying to take a middle ground, but the difficulty with sitting in the middle is that both sides tend to view you as part of the opposition. It is a difficult topic to manage, and part of the problem is that there are so many allegations, and so many consipracy theories, that the whole thing is a BLP minefield. Masem has been in a frustrating position, and like anyone Masem may not have always used perfect wording or said the right things, but I honestly can't see anything serious enough in the diffs raised to warrant sanctions. - Bilby (talk) 00:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Kaciemonster

I'm not sure Masem has done anything sanction-worthy, but I do have some serious concerns about how he determines that content from reliable sources should be treated in our article.

When multiple sources state something that he disagrees with adding to the article, he argues that it can only be included if it's cited as the source's opinion.

• 25 November 2014‏ - "The problem is that while "severe" harassment can certainly be supported without quotes (we have plenty of reliable documented facts about this), "misogynistic" can't be - that's how its been characterized widely, certainly, but it's also an observation"
• 25 November 2014‏ - "That is the press's wide opinion, but only opinion. There is no factual evidence of what started GG."

When it's something he agrees with adding, he argues that it should be included because it was written in reliable (press) sources.

• 25 November 2014 - "It is not appropriate to trivialize how GG is described as a movement by some high quality RS, like Time, the Age, and the Washington Post"

These are just the most recent ones I've seen, and I'm sure I could find more if needed, because he's been making these arguments for a while. He's also previously said that a scientific report or a legal document is needed to cite something as fact, and the press can only be cited as opinion.

• 2 November 2014 - "100% wrong per NPOV. It is claimed the ethics issue is a front, but there is no fundamental statement (like a scientific report or a legal document) that supports this. As such we will continue to treat that claim as a popular opinion in the press, but absolutely not as fact."

The way he treats the reliable sources is inconsistent, and depends on whether or not he agrees with the point that's being sourced. Kaciemonster (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Clerk note

• I want to remind everyone here that statements should be limited to 500 words. This is not a place for endless bickering back and forth, but for substantive evidence. Please make sure that you adhere to the 500 word limit, if at all possible. RGloucester — ☎ 00:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Result concerning Masem

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The poster of this request, User:MarkBernstein and User:Thargor Orlando have provided diffs. If the other people who have commented want to have their views taken seriously they should also provide diffs. In particular User:Avono should clarify how MB "baited numerous Users to make an enforcement request on him". It is hard to disagree with User:Tony Sidaway but your comment is too vague. Who are the editors who 'want to dredge up long-settled BLP matters'? EdJohnston (talk) 22:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• My first pass through the diffs some things jump out at me.
  • Many of these statements, particularly ones by User:Tutelary, User:Pudeo, User:The Devil's Advocate, and User:Halfhat, do not provide diffs or useful information and seem to only serve as a way for editors to state their opinion about which side they are on. If we are going to sort through this wall of text, we're going to need useful, actionable evidence and we will need to begin removing non-compliant statements, if only to reduce clutter.
  • I find this statement by User:MarkBernstein absolutely appalling and will remove it and warn the user. We should discuss whether or not this deserves some sort of sanction as well. On the one hand, we certainly want to put a stop to this sort of behavior, on the other, if we go down this road, I suspect we'll have to sanction half the people on this page for uncivil behavior.
  • I am particularly troubled by these statements by User:Masem and User:Thargor Orlando respectively which indicate a disregard for WP:RS.

• I'd like to hear from some other admins (such as @EdJohnston:, @Acroterion:, @Future Perfect at Sunrise:, @Dreadstar:) about these and other matters before diving in further. Gamaliel (talk) 21:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Gamaliel, thanks for your post. I haven't had time to consider the new items you mention, but here is what I concluded after seeing the complaint here and viewing the talk history. The diffs so far don’t add up to a convincing case against User:Masem. Looking at the last two talk archives, there are a number of hatted sections. Generally the hats were due to problematic posts. Tony Sidaway made reference to one of them here: “...BLP issues that are now in this hatted discussion.” When hatting the section, Tony's closure was "Highly disruptive reopening of a settled topic with strong BLP implications".

• The reason for opening the now-hatted discussion was presumably that User:Avono made the BLP-sensitive edit here where he changed a section header in the article from "Unfounded allegations against Quinn" to "Unproven allegations against Quinn". User:Avono opened the talk section and was joined by User:Thargor Orlando. User:Masem then explained why the claims about Quinn can be said to be ‘refuted.’ Masem made a statement at 16:51, 22 November 2014 that is hard to disagree with, about the BLP significance of having this kind of claim in the article. Now right after this, User:Gamaliel restored one week of full protection, which seems correct to me. There was enough BLP concern to justify the full protection. But in the hours before that, there was a confused sequence of events and we might be asking if what happened on the (briefly unprotected) article and on the talk page is enough reason to sanction any particular editor. In the few diffs of User:Masem that I checked, I didn’t see any problems. In fact, Masem gave some good reasons why we shouldn't be playing around with the header about the Quinn allegations:

  The fact the accusation has been the major point of discussion of sources - and that all key parties have clearly stated that these are not true - means that from a BLP standpoint, it is acceptable to include the high-level nature of the allegations, as long as it is 100% clear that they have been refuted by the specific parties and by the press at large. This has been determined waaaaay in the past. Now there are other claims that have come against Quinn based on Gjoni's post, but which the press have generally ignored, but we are absolutely not including those per BLP. --MASEM (t) 16:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This does not raise any alarms for me. Considering the posts by all the parties we might be more concerned with the edits of User:Avono in this episode. His first edit after he merged the draft article was to change a very high-profile section header about Zoe Quinn. Can he have reasonably thought he had consensus? I'm assuming that the people named here have been around the article long enough to be aware of past discussions. EdJohnston (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

This complaint is running out of steam. User:MarkBernstein, who opened it, has been leaving messages saying he will no longer contribute to Misplaced Pages. I didn't find it very easy to follow Mark Bernstein's arguments, but what User:Tony Sidaway said was more clear. If the complaint won't proceed unless I or other admins do a lot of digging, nothing much is likely to happen. Viewing the talk page, you can find a lot of intemperate comments by various people but hardly ever by User:Masem, who is diplomatic. The only angle I see as having any merit is that Masem might be obstructing or slowing down a consensus that would otherwise emerge. Masem is the #2 contributor to the Talk:Gamergate controversy page with 1199 edits, second only to User:NorthBySouthBaranof with 1558 edits. If you were seeking evidence of obstruction, you would probably want to look at the wording of the RfC Masem launched on 26 October:

Is it possible that in an article about a two-sided issue where one side has received the majority of the positive coverage to be too biased in favor of that larger coverage? --MASEM (t) 05:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

A first impression might be that Masem was inviting people to ignore the reliable source policy to tilt the article to be more favorable to the Gamergate movement. But it's hard to say that offering such an RfC violates any Misplaced Pages policy. (It's very similar to a previous RfC from September opened by Retartist). Generally it is up to the consensus of editors how RfCs ought to be worded. In my opinion, the time could have been better spent creating smaller RfCs about specific wording. For example, the section header "Unfounded allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment." Somebody could have opened an RfC to decide once and for all how to word that heading (unfounded, false or whatever) and then progress could move on. There's also a possibility that some of the article wording might have a partisan tone. Masem has pointed out that the wording of our Westboro Baptist Church article describes how various sources describe the church as a hate group but don't put that in Misplaced Pages's voice. If you want to pull out particular sentences for review they could be discussed in smaller RfCs. There is a huge amount of discussion here that seems inefficient, and seems not to make progress. As to whether Masem is dragging down the article by his persistence, and thus guilty of tendentious editing, I don't think there's enough evidence in this complaint to get any conclusion on that. EdJohnston (talk) 03:00, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you Ed, I'm not seeing anything actionable regarding Masem at this point. In the various comments and in the RfC by Masem linked to above, I do see a need for Masem to review WP:NPOV and the other content-related policies; as well as gaining a greater understanding of how to phrase an WP:RFC, particularly the section WP:RFC:Request comment on articles, policies, or other non-user issues; that particular RFC is neither neutral nor brief. Dreadstar ☥ 03:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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RE: 8chan, DungeonSiegeAddict510 and Loganmac

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