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Revision as of 22:17, 29 November 2014 editNorthBySouthBaranof (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,475 edits →The Misplaced Pages community has not found the Gamergate controversy article to be biased: rp← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:18, 29 November 2014 edit undoNorthBySouthBaranof (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,475 edits →The Misplaced Pages community has not found the Gamergate controversy article to be biased: refactor to partiesNext edit →
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	::If it wasn't biased, as you say, there wouldn't be so much drama over an article. --] ] 21:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)		::If it wasn't biased, as you say, there wouldn't be so much drama over an article. --] ] 21:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
	:::The existence of a disagreement is not evidence, much less proof, that the disagreement is well-founded or productive. ] (]) 22:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)		:::The existence of a disagreement is not evidence, much less proof, that the disagreement is well-founded or productive. ] (]) 22:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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Revision as of 22:18, 29 November 2014

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

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Purpose of the workshop: The case Workshop exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post possible components of the final decision for review and comment by others. Components proposed here may be general principles of site policy and procedure, findings of fact about the dispute, remedies to resolve the dispute, and arrangements for remedy enforcement. These are the four types of proposals that can be included in committee final decisions. There are also sections for analysis of /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case. Any user may edit this workshop page; please sign all posts and proposals. Arbitrators will place components they wish to propose be adopted into the final decision on the /Proposed decision page. Only Arbitrators and clerks may edit that page, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

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Motions and requests by the parties

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Proposed temporary injunctions

Proposed Reprieve of Gamergate Related Sanctions Within This Case

1) For the duration of this case, any topic ban on GamerGate is lifted within this case for any involved party or any request to become an involved party unless by a vote of the arbitration committee. --Obsidi (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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My concern with this proposal, made plain by the contents of Titanium Dragon's full statement, is that certain users will attempt to relitigate and rehash the numerous BLP issues which directly led to their topic bans being imposed. ArbCom should not be effectively putting three living people who are significantly affected by our articles — Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu — on trial here. This proceeding should not become a platform for fringe allegations and insinuations about people which certain Gamergate supporters cling to, but which have been widely and thoroughly rejected by reliable sources. Obviously, any party must be allowed to participate in the proceeding, but I believe both committee members and clerks need to be extremely cautious about the contributions of users with a demonstrated disregard for how policy dictates we discuss three people who have been victimized by internationally-reported harassment campaigns. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:14, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I believe that everyone Should have a chance to speak at this case if it affects them. Although if they have a topic ban; everything said by them must remain on topic Retartist (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

They should be allowed to participate but be very aware that they can only participate here and can be blocked if their behavior deviates from expected for a ArbCom case. --MASEM (t) 04:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I would be OK with people who are topic banned being able to respond to any evidence that is presented against them on the evidence page, but not to initiate or discuss any other topics. The topic bans are in place because they have shown that they cannot be appropriately productive editors on the subject. This is going to be enough of a cluster that opening it up to known disruptors is just insane. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

If they believe their blocks/bans were in place due to problems with how the GG sanctions have been handled, they should be allowed to bring up their case here. (Please note, I'm not saying there have been any issues on that line, just that this is where they should have their fair due). --MASEM (t) 06:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

if they wish to appeal their ban, they can go to => Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Ban_Appeals_Subcommittee#Procedure which is set up for you know hearing ban appeals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 07:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment by others:

There was some question at the request stage as it applies to Titanium Dragon topic ban (DungeonSiegeAddict510 is also topic banned on gamergate), other individuals may also be topic banned under general sanctions while this case is open. I think they should be able to continue to make their arguments in this case (unless they become disruptive enough in this case that the arbitration committee decides to act). --Obsidi (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof:How do you expect them to appeal their ban without making any arguments? Except for an appeal for clemency, Isn’t almost any appeal of a ban one which “relitigate and rehash” of the rational for the ban? They should be able to present evidence that their ban was improper abuse of administrative power. If they go off topic or if they start attacking living persons without being able to back up any claim with a RS, I am confident that the ArbCom can decide an appropriate remedy. --Obsidi (talk) 02:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: The Ban Appeals Subcommittee is only for sitebans. "BASC does not hear appeals of topic bans...". --Obsidi (talk) 12:54, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that any editors banned from the topic should be allowed access to comment on this case, mostly in regards to the topics of their bans, at the discretion of the arbitrators. Weedwacker (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Hatting by Involved Parties

2) Involved Parties are not allowed to hat ongoing discussion on the GamerGate talkpage Avono (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

see WP:GGE#In_regards_to_involved_editors_closing.2Fhatting_discussions Avono (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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I would agree with this and suggest it be extended to articles' talk pages directly linked to the Gamergate article (involved persons/sites). Weedwacker (talk) 07:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Exemptions for and enforcement otherwise of WP:OUTING

3) i) Involved editors who have previously admitted, or otherwise been proven to use a specific account off-wiki (especially with the same or a substantially similar username), where their off-wiki activities are held to be relevant to the case, shall be listed in one place (I suggest the Evidence Talk page) for convenience. This should not be an official finding of fact.

ii) In the interest of civility and avoiding obstruction, said editors shall cease and desist from any claim or implication that it "might not be them".

iii) In cases where off-wiki activities are not held to be relevant to the case, all parties shall cease and desist from any mention of these connections.

iv) No further allegation of an editor being a specific user on another site shall be made without immediate presentation of clear evidence, even if the username is identical, nor shall such an inference be relied upon when presenting evidence.

76.64.35.209 (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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I would no problem with this if its what ArbCom wants to do. But it would require a lot of up front evaluation of the evidence of which WP users are which reddit users. Also this is a suspension of the standard WP:OUTING policy, normally such information is just emailed. Although in this case, if ArbCom wishes to have the users challenge the allegations of off-wiki activity, allowing it to be on-wiki (even though it does technically violate WP:OUTING) seems reasonable. --Obsidi (talk) 01:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Clearly something has to be done, because the Evidence page is currently full of links to off-site activity that, per Evidence page talk discussion, is well below Arbcom's threshold of concern (essentially boiling down to "editors said mean/supportive things about each other elsewhere, demonstrating what 'side' they're on"). 76.64.35.209 (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, something must be done about the preponderance of off-site linking. Either all of it should be considered off-limits per WP:OUTING unless it has been proven/admitted previously, it should be discarded entirely, or it should be specified that it is allowed, which would be a circumvention of normal rules. Weedwacker (talk) 07:00, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Another possibility I see, implied by the talk page discussion, is that it's allowed only to support specific types of claims (which had probably better be enumerated in advance). 76.64.35.209 (talk) 19:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Everyone should read this statement by an arbitrator on the evidence talk page that clears up a few things with regard to WP:OUTING and off-site evidence. Weedwacker (talk) 22:02, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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Questions to the parties

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Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:TheRedPenOfDoom

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Proposed findings of fact

Proposed findings regarding targeting by external entities

1) Gamergate articles and the editors who work on them have been the subject of offsite coordination by a group known for vicious harassment, death threats and doxxing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 08:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

No proposals on this page please unless they are fully supported by evidence, Roger Davies 12:42, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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There is no evidence that members of the group that engaged in the reported GG harassment are the same as those that are trying to affect the WP article. This is not to excuse the latter group from any type of improper groupthink tactics that we can track easily like me at puppetry which is still a problem, but it is not appropriate for us to presume these two groups are one and the same when it comes to dealing with their interaction on WP. --MASEM (t)

No true Scotsman eh? Its only all of those OTHER anonymous editors gathering at 4chan and 8chan and reddit under the name gamergate that are doing X. WE anonymous editors gathering at 4chan and 8chan and reddit under the name gamergate are doing something completely unrelated except that it also involves scouring the web to dig up details about people we dont like. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I never said that there might be some members of the group trying to influence WP that were also involved in the harassment, but there is no evidence to tell us this; it is a violation of AGF to assume that these two groups are one and the same w/o evidence. There are problems with the 4chan/8chan/reddit general mindset, influence by being the loudest, that is an issue here that we can certainly track. --MASEM (t) 17:52, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Avono: Have you looked at the evidence page where there are several editors who have provided links to the offsite coordination on reddit and 4 chan? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:41, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Roger Davies: Yes, there is evidence supporting that disruption and harassment has been coordinated off-site. Whether or not the parties of this case are involved is a different story.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

There is certainly evidence of off-site coordination, and whether some editors are involved in that may be considered disruptive is an issue to explore w/ evidence. But we have to separate anyone involved in that off-site coordinate from the group of people that directly participated in the GG harassment/threats/doxxing, the implication of this "finding". --MASEM (t) 22:31, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you accusing certain editors for being participant in doxxing, death threats and harassment? This is sickening and it should be dealt with a warning Loganmac (talk) 20:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of problems with this.

We don't name the group in question, which makes it a worthlessly vague statement.
The group most prominently involved with doxxing users here, Wikipediocracy, is responsible for doxxing and inciting harassment, but probably has not engaged in "vicious harassment", and to the best of my knowledge, has not issued any death threats against anyone.
While it may be true that so-called "Social Justice Warriors" are responsible for "vicious harassment, death threats and doxxing", I'm not sure if you can really call them "a group".
More problematically, to the best of my knowledge, we have no idea who has sent any of the death threats to anyone involved in any of these - there have been no criminal charges laid, to the best of my knowledge, nor have the culprits been publicly identified by law enforcement authorities, unless I missed something (I admittedly haven't been paying much attention of late, so someone correct me if charges have been laid or someone behind this stuff has been identified).
Off-wiki coordination is only problematic if it involves inappropriate behavior; gathering information, sussing out habitually problematic users, trying to gather information to improve articles, source/data collation, ect. is not really inappropriate behavior; on the other hand, canvassing, harassment of users, ect. is inappropriate behavior. We should specify the behavior or behaviors in question.
While Wikipediocracy and various people involved doxxed and provided links to doxx of Misplaced Pages users in order to try and intimidate people editing these articles is obviously problematic, as far as I know, everyone involved in that incident has been banned, unless they were secretly involved without our knowledge. Thus, I'm not sure if "off-site coordination" is even meaningful in that case, as everyone involved in that debacle is not a Misplaced Pages user.

Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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@TheRedPenOfDoom: well in that case provide said evidence where these people have been coordinating off site. Otherwise What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence Avono (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: And? Even if there were evidence that people talked about this offsite that still wouldn't meet the claim of "group known for vicious harassment, death threats and doxxing". The only true statement you can make is that "Gamergate articles and the editors who work on them have been doxxed by Third Parties (User:Tutelary,User:DungeonSiegeAddict510,User:Titanium Dragon)" Avono (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I missed the doxxing of DungeonSiegeAddict; is there an ANI about it I can read? Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: The evidence provided does not connect editors with engagement in off-site "harassment, death threats, and doxxing". You cannot use this argument to disregard the evidence and opinions of other editors. You also can't just say that posters on an imageboard where some harassment may take place are all harassers, just as you couldn't say that all posters on reddit are racist just because racist posts exist. Weedwacker (talk) 17:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: What "group" are we even talking about here? What are the specific qualifications for membership within the group? And by what standard are they "known for vicious harassment, death threats and doxxing"? If you are talking about "-chan sites" (imageboards), it makes no more sense to describe them that way than to describe Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, etc. that way. Essentially anyone can participate on an imageboard, by design - they're even more open than Misplaced Pages, in that there's generally not even a way to create an account except for a tiny selection of official staff, and practically nothing in the way of arbitration/mediation/ban appeal structure. If multiple Wikipedians could be shown to have engaged in "vicious harassment, death threats and doxxing", would you then be okay with the characterization of WP as such a "group"? 76.64.35.209 (talk) 22:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. If this is supposed to be about GamerGate folks, then it is even more problematic because it isn't really a group in any meaningful sense; there isn't much organization, nor are they capable of taking official action or whatever. And again, we don't even know who sent any of the death threats, unless the police have identified someone/laid charges against them or whatever, which hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

And even if all of these gaps in the reasoning could be filled, IMO it still smacks of guilt by association to bring it up as significant. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 19:21, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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2) Community consensus processes with participation from a wide range of uninvolved editors have noted that the Gamergate controversy article is imperfect and in need of improvement, but that it is generally in accord with the mainstream reliable sources which have reported on the matter, and that it is not significantly biased.

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As per evidence, particularly Talk:Gamergate controversy/RFC1. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

If it wasn't biased, as you say, there wouldn't be so much drama over an article. --DSA510 Pls No Bully 21:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The existence of a disagreement is not evidence, much less proof, that the disagreement is well-founded or productive. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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User:Titanium Dragon topic-banned indefinitely

1) For persistent violations of the Biographies of living persons policy on related pages, the Gamergate-related topic ban previously imposed on User:Titanium Dragon by an uninvolved administrator is endorsed and extended indefinitely. The user may appeal for a relief of this sanction through the usual means after a period of 6 months.

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Per evidence already submitted and forthcoming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

What is his ban presently again?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Disagree on ban, and if he gets banned he should be able to appeal on day 1, why wouldn't he? Loganmac (talk) 01:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Because if the Arbitration Committee approves this proposed remedy, then that's it, the subject is closed. An editor who is indefinitely topic-banned or otherwise restricted from editing in a topic area under an Arbitration Committee decision may request an amendment to lift or modify the restriction after an appropriate time period has elapsed. A reasonable minimum time period for such a request will ordinarily be six months, unless the decision provides for a different time or the Committee subsequently determines otherwise. Editors under active Arbitration Committee sanction may appeal no more often than 6 months, and that's what this allows. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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Generally argue with arguments

1) Sometimes an editor needs to be discussed, but it should take a much more secondary role, argument should focus on points not people.

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NPOV is over dominant

1) This article is of poor quality, discussion of the article is far too focussed on NPOV. I don't think anyone is particularly at fault for this, nor do I think anyone involved (including myself) is free from blame. The dominance of NPOV has caused the other areas to be somewhat neglected.

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Arbitration is not a new forum for solving a perceived content dispute.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:05, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

While normally yes, establishing what the content/concerns that are disputed is normal practice in ArbCom cases (several of the proposed FoF in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement for example apply here; add in the inability to engage in consensus building at the talk page or other venues, and that becomes a more important manner to set what content policies apply and if there are problems with content policies that the community needs to review. --MASEM (t) 05:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

So we're allowing Gamergaters to turn this into a new forum to make the same complaints over and over again?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:36, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

If you can't point to a documented consensus about a given point, then pretty much yes, give or take. And also keep in mind consensus can change too even if that is set (though in the time frame we're talking here, that really doesn't apply). Also, this does not apply if there is a true meatpuppetry-type push to demand change, but if we have independent editors asking about the issues that don't have consensus demonstration, then that's completely fair. --MASEM (t) 05:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

There's been plenty of consensus-building, it's just that the consensus has consistently gone against Gamergate, and Gamergate supporters have shown a distinct inability to recognize this and drop the WP:STICK. A group doesn't get to re-run disputes until they get the result they want. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

No, there actually has not been much consensus building, as evidenced by refusal to participate in dispute resolutions, refusal to discuss suggestions on improvement, closing/hatting of discussions by involved people, and by trying to treat new editors by immediately labeling them as unhelpful SPAs as to be able to nullify their voices. Ownership of the article in such a manner leads to cases just like this. --MASEM (t) 15:36, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to argue that one side or the other has refused to discuss things, I will present the 14 pages of archives on Talk:Gamergate controversy (compiled in less than 3 months) which are evidence to the contrary. This issue has been discussed more than anything I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages. The problem is not a lack of discussion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

"Discussion" != "Consensus building". When the bulk of discussions on anything tied to the neutrality of the article is shut down by a handful of long-standing editors "no, gamergate is a fringe movement, we don't have to talk about them at all" or "you're an SPA, we're ignoring your contributions"-type of discussions, that's not consensus building. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

You're basically arguing that because Gamergate supporters haven't gotten what they want, there hasn't been "consensus-building." Misplaced Pages consensuses don't work that way. The fact that there are fourteen (14) pages of talk archives generated in less than 90 days demonstrates that there have been extensive, repeated, stick-gripping discussions that nobody has "shut down." The problem is that those discussions repeatedly come back around to some subset of "we don't like this article, the sources are biased and you're conspiring against Gamergate." This is a clear attempt to relitigate a content dispute in front of ArbCom. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not just people GG supporters, but myself (I'm antiGG) and several other established editors that see the problems. And we've tried engaging in consensus building and the handful of editors just shut it out, refusing to discuss the nuances of policy that apply to this case. The fact these editors have refused dispute resolution also is a sign that no consensus building has been done on this page. And no, I'm not expecting ArbCom to resolve the content, but to be clear that page ownership to push a specific tone of WP's voice and a certain POV is not appropriate behavior for editors, comparable to past ArbCom cases like the Tea Party case. The fact there is 14 pages of discussion, including repeating discussions about how the page does not meet policy, is a possible sign of page ownership and control, where other editors try to break the hold that a small group have on the page. However, I also contest that the fact there are 14 pages is because in three months there was a lot of information generated by GG that we had to sort through, much of it determining how appropriate sources and the like are in there. Irregardless, there is no evidence of any strong form of consensus building (a core principle of WP) and particularly in dispute resolution. --MASEM (t) 19:53, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

And a wide array of other established editors and administrators largely view the article as an appropriate depiction of the movement and its notable actions based upon reliable sources. Your attempt to reduce this to some sort of cabal is offensive. We can go around and around this, but I'll stop here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Please point to a consensus-based discussion that addresses the neutrality based problems of the article that involved more than just the editors on the GG page. I will acknowledge that there was the ANI issue on whether to keep the NPOV tag or not, but as it was determined there by consensus, issues with impartial language is not something to keep the tag there, but did not speak anything to whether the article was appropriately neutral and impartial, or not; as such, that is not the discussion that determined that the article language was appropriate. In fact, comments by uninvolved admins at the GG/GS page on the case raised at me suggest that there are impartial language problems but that a proper RFC would be a venue. I have been very hesitant to open any new RFC on the neutrality/impartiality of the article due to 1) general weariness of dealing with GG across WP (per the latest spat at ANI) that I don't want to bring in any other groups until I'm sure what the way forward is, and 2) the existence of this case which I will wait to see how it is resolved to determine how to properly work the RFC if it remains necessary. Add to this the type of behavior exhibited by the comments above, akin to a "I'm not listening!" attitude that persists on the talk page. This is caustic behavior that absolutely is not helpful or appropriate in light of both the topic (which is strongly decisive and begs for care in dealing with POV/BLP), and the fact that we have people trying to influence the article from outside. CIVIL behavior is a key aspect here and that means participation in appropriate consensus building steps. --MASEM (t) 20:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The massively-participated-in request for comment that you opened seems to underscore it appropriately. Is the current Gamergate article too biased in this manner? There are feelings on both sides here, both the article is too biased to the pre and anti sides here, while quite a few people seem to think it is ok. Often, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE are hard to distinguish in situations like this, due to the unbalance in sourcing avalible. However, the overall tone is, while there are some issues, there is no overarching bias in the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that, and we (or at least myself) have long moved past the fact that we cannot change the predominate viewpoint being against GG (but the conclusions still state that we need to be careful with the approach in the article). But that speaks nothing to the impartialness issue that remains a point of discussion long since that consensus. Bias and impartialness are two separate concepts per WP:NPOV, and rationale attempts to suggest alternative wording that maintain the weight of viewpoints but improve the impartialness have been shut down by editors owning this page. --MASEM (t) 21:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

And this is what I mean by not dropping the stick. A month-long RFC with widespread community participation was closed with the conclusion that the article is not biased and, for the most part, accurately reflects the reliable sources available. Rather than accepting that conclusion of the community, you immediately turn to a semantic argument about "bias" and "impartiality." Do you propose to initiate another RFC asking Is the current Gamergate article impartial? How will that generate any different feedback than the previous question? How many times do you propose to re-run the same arguments? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to so this, but I think I may have been misunderstood, I have attempted to word it better.Half Hat 14:27, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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I agree with Ryulong that Arbitration is almost never going to solve a content dispute for you. I would not include this finding of fact like this unless you are going to advocate a remedy like Misplaced Pages:Blow it up and start over, and claim the current NPOV issues are hopelessly irreparable. --Obsidi (talk) 03:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Not to speak for anyone else, but the more I read - from all parties involved - the more I find myself contemplating that remedy. The obvious problem is that of who gets to do the rebuilding. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 19:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I simply do not understand how the assertion that "there's been plenty of consensus-building" can be supported here - especially if (as everyone involved seems to be happy to paint the discussion) there are two clear camps consisting of 8chan's so-called "five horsemen" (plus supporting admins) on one side and basically everyone else on the other side. If "Gamergate supporters can't drop the stick", and Gamergate supporters are numerous, then just what definition of "consensus" are we using that allows their concerns to be ignored? Who exactly are the people involved in all of these putative "consensuses"?

As for the talk page, the sheer volume of discussion is not evidence of "willingness to discuss" an issue. That's like saying that a revert war is evidence of rapid progress on an article because "look at how many diffs there are". 76.64.35.209 (talk) 19:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Er, um, if you think everyone besides we "five horsemen" are on the side of Gamergate here, you need to actually read those 14 pages of archives, because that's not a particularly good reading of the extensive discussions.

The fact that one side is dissatisfied with the result of those discussions does not mean that there has been a failure of discussion. Sometimes you don't get what you want, no matter how much you argue for it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Would you care to name names of people you consider to be in agreement with you here, who I might not have considered? 76.64.35.209 (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Given that this section is not for the presentation of evidence, no. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Largely unproductive discussion

2) Much of the discussion on Talk:GamerGate covers the same things and often all "sides" walk away with the same view, with the discussion having achieved nothing.

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WP:CIVIL

1) Editors should remain civil towards one another regardless of their view or purpose on wikipedia.

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NOPV

2) Articles should be written in a neutral manner and not express opinions in wikipedia's voice

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Proposed principles

Regarding WP:RS

i) When a supposedly reliable source makes a statement on a subject that is demonstrated to be false, that is not a reason to treat the statement as if it were true, especially in talk page discussion; it is a reason to call the reliability of the source into question, no matter how reputable. If the Washington Post, New York Times were to publish tomorrow (or in a few months) that 2+2=5, we would surely not begin revising articles on mathematics that include derivations relying on the fact that 2+2=4.

ii) There is, in fact, very good reason to believe that all-around "reliable sources" make incorrect statements (or subjective ones that carry a heavy, masked bias), on many topics, all the time.

iii) It must be remembered that sources often present opinions as facts and that due diligence is required to ensure that this is detected and handled appropriately. Sources should not be cherry-picked; if a very long article is being used to support a single-sentence assertion in the article, that's suspicious.

iv) The reliability of a source is contextual. A website about graphic design, for example, may be considered a reliable source on e.g. colour theory, but should not be considered a reliable source for the purpose of determining the motivations of others - especially not an anonymous, poorly-defined group that they haven't directly interacted with.

WP:VNT cuts both ways

i) Main pages on Misplaced Pages are concerned explicitly with Verifiability, Not Truth. The fact that WP feels the need to make this distinction demonstrates that there is in fact a difference. Accordingly, just as the truth of a statement does not qualify it for inclusion in an article, the consensus of reliable sources does not establish an objective fact.

ii) Therefore, while it is appropriate to present such a consensus on a Talk page as proper for inclusion in the article, it is not appropriate to present the consensus view as ipso facto objectively true.

iii) This is especially the case if the consensus view - or more likely, a single source, for a minor point not sourced elsewhere (but which is deemed WP:DUE) - can be demonstrated to be false.

iv) Again, since verifiability is not truth, truth is not verifiability. Demonstrating that a supposedly (see previous proposal) reliable source has stated a falsehood does not require pointing at other RSes; it requires making a logical argument, such as an analysis of the actual primary source about which claims are being made. Before anyone brings up the "but I know the truth" argument: when a secondary source reports on a primary source, it is of course possible to track down the primary source. The question of whether the secondary source is misrepresenting (or outright lying about) the contents of the primary source is generally going to be pretty objective.

v) Lengthy talk page discussion that starts from the assumption of the truth of claims found in reliable sources is not necessarily WP:FORUM, but clearly runs the risk of becoming so. This goes for both those making claims and those rebutting them.

76.64.35.209 (talk) 19:03, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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These proposals (both sections) are highly problematic and not supported by evidence or the like at any stage. Misplaced Pages is not going to second guess reliable sources just because Gamergate denies the accusations put against them in that source.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:07, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

... Pardon? Exactly what "evidence or the like" do you think is necessary for an argument about the interpretation of policy? I reject your framing of the issue wholeheartedly; the point is that a source that makes accusations about "Gamergate" (I assume you mean supporters considered in general) without evidence is doing just that - accusing, not demonstrating. Accordingly, the article needs to say "source X claims GG are Y", not "GG are Y ". This is especially true when they are clearly opinion pieces, blogs/guest contributions (which WaPo hosts a lot of) or otherwise just uncritically reporting the accusations of primary sources. That's not "second-guessing"; it's presenting opinion as opinion, like the cited section of policy mandates.

This is also about Gjoni not having actually made claims that are commonly attributed to him. That's not a question of "Gamergate denying it"; that's a question of actually reading what Gjoni wrote and observing that he didn't make the claims. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 20:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

We don't second-guess the conclusions of reliable sources on Misplaced Pages. That would be original research. If the predominant weight of reliable sources adheres to a particular viewpoint, we are required by WP:DUE to present that viewpoint as predominant in our article — whether or not anyone agrees with that viewpoint. Minority viewpoints must be presented as such, and if they are fringe viewpoints not given credence or weight by reliable sources, they may be excluded entirely. A Misplaced Pages article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is.

What you appear to be arguing is that Misplaced Pages should serve as a platform for a certain group to espouse its disagreement with how reliable sources have covered it. Misplaced Pages is not a platform to right such perceived wrongs. It is an Internet encyclopedia which publishes content that is, by foundational policy, almost entirely based on what has been published in reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not arguing any such thing and I strain to imagine how you could construe things that way. I am not calling for second-guessing. I explicitly said I was not calling for second-guessing. I demonstrated clearly how what I actually am calling for objectively is not second-guessing. For you to start off with "We don't second-guess...", therefore, is frankly insulting. You also seem to have completely glossed over all the parts that explicitly concern Talk pages and not main article content. 76.64.35.209 (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

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