| Revision as of 10:09, 3 December 2014 view sourceReynTime (talk | contribs)156 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 10:11, 3 December 2014 view source Krano (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers16,241 edits →Article focus: Is this WP article to be about the Gamergate group or the Gamergate controversy?Next edit → | ||
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| :I've been using the term "fringe" to discuss the fact that Gamergate's claims clearly fall under ] and in terms of making sure our article is clear that Gamergate is a fringe element within gaming culture, and doesn't represent even a significant minority of gamers. ] (]) 09:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | :I've been using the term "fringe" to discuss the fact that Gamergate's claims clearly fall under ] and in terms of making sure our article is clear that Gamergate is a fringe element within gaming culture, and doesn't represent even a significant minority of gamers. ] (]) 09:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :: Right, I was mostly referring to DHeyward's and Masem's posts about the Gamergate "fringe", as in "the core of Gamergate isn't doing that bad stuff, it's the fringe." I'm not contesting that Gamergate is a fringe viewpoint, which it clearly is. ] (]) 10:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | :: Right, I was mostly referring to DHeyward's and Masem's posts about the Gamergate "fringe", as in "the core of Gamergate isn't doing that bad stuff, it's the fringe." I'm not contesting that Gamergate is a fringe viewpoint, which it clearly is. ] (]) 10:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :: This says otherwise . If Gamergate's concern were a fringe matter, why would have this source bothered to write an opinion article about it? ] (]) 10:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
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RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)
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Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft
I made this revert (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --TS 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. HalfHat 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — Strongjam (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? HalfHat 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest gender-based. Instead of severe we could use something like Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ..., but I think we can just go with severe or intense I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word rhetoric though, I also thought sentiment might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like These attacks often include what is reported as ..., but I'm not a big fan of that. — Strongjam (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — Strongjam (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. HalfHat 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." WP:OR / WP:V / WP:UNDUE are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how we achieve ""neutrality". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
| These Hitler comparisons need to stop; it's not productive and is inflammatory. Either quit or be sanctioned. Dreadstar ☥ 07:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. Tutelary (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --TS 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Hitler is evil/Did evil things is easy to find RSs for, doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should say those thngs. HalfHat 18:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
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Is there any objection, or suggestion for improvement, to Strongjam's suggestion of replacing, Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? I support it because it reads much less loaded and more encyclopaedic, and puts more emphasis on the facts. HalfHat 16:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support - yes, it sounds better, thank you. starship.paint ~ regal 23:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support - Unnecessary adverbs, sounds fine without them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I've given it a go in the draft article. I think it's fairly non-controversial, but no hurt feelings if it's reverted and needs more discussion. — Strongjam (talk) 01:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think a better wording from "These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." would be "These attacks often include both anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as it exists in the gaming community."Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I support the final wording listed here above the others. It's not fully encyclopedic but at least it doesn't violate NPOV too badly. I would suggest, however, that: 'Media coverage has focused largely on anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric contained within a number of these messages, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny, particularly with reference to the gaming community.' Indeed, this deals with the NPOV issue and sums up the general media consensus without appearing to lend additional support to it, which is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Theduinoelegy (talk) 01:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think a better wording from "These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." would be "These attacks often include both anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as it exists in the gaming community."Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Suggestion about "Operation Disrespectful Nod"
We should elborate the part "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites critical of Gamergate". There are sources that describe Gawker becoming the target largely because of the bullying comments. My proposed edit was "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites that allegedly condone bullying and are critical of Gamergate" and I feel like the edit is small and relevant enough to be included despite us trying to bring the article down in size. Eldritcher (talk) 16:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Doesn't the bullying claims apply only to Gawker, also I moved to a different section, I was to keep my discussion general. HalfHat 16:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems to be mainly Gawker, but they have also been the primary target during the last month or so. It seems dishonest to not include the detail. I'd be fine with noting that the bullying backlash was against Gawker specifically, but that might take too much space and we're already lacking. Eldritcher (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- the most reliable of the sources you list says that it is a "joke about bullying" that caused people to get their panties all twisted and become annoying little shits. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It was not perceived as a joke by those in GamerGate so their reason for targeting the advertisers was to still go against bullying. Also, regarding that Twitter link, haven't you yourself said that linking websites like that is pointless even on the talk page because their source value is nonexistent? If you want to use it to support your argument, you need to allow the same from others. Eldritcher (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I thought GG was about journalistic ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You don't think journalists posting support for bullying is unethical? Regardless, can we get back on topic? Eldritcher (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I see the joke as hysterically satirical albiet "tone deaf" ; but not connecting with "ethics" in any meaningful way, nor as a personal twit as connecting with "journalism" in any way. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You don't think journalists posting support for bullying is unethical? Regardless, can we get back on topic? Eldritcher (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I thought GG was about journalistic ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It was not perceived as a joke by those in GamerGate so their reason for targeting the advertisers was to still go against bullying. Also, regarding that Twitter link, haven't you yourself said that linking websites like that is pointless even on the talk page because their source value is nonexistent? If you want to use it to support your argument, you need to allow the same from others. Eldritcher (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- the most reliable of the sources you list says that it is a "joke about bullying" that caused people to get their panties all twisted and become annoying little shits. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems to be mainly Gawker, but they have also been the primary target during the last month or so. It seems dishonest to not include the detail. I'd be fine with noting that the bullying backlash was against Gawker specifically, but that might take too much space and we're already lacking. Eldritcher (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, I think what we have is just fine. Stating that Gawker "allegedly supports bullying" based upon a tweet that was in bad taste, but was an obvious joke, is unsupported nonsense. The sources you have listed are marginal, at best, compared to the existing sources we have in the section. If anything, that section should be trimmed down at this point, as it's a bit of WP:RECENTISM, really. The media has stopped paying attention and it doesn't seem to have materially affected Gawker. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was not a single tweet, but multiple tweets. Other people from the network also showed support. It received a very large focus from GamerGate. Furthermore, it seems odd to say that the media has stopped paying attention to this when several articles on the topic have been released during the last four days alone. As for Gawker not having been materially affected, an article by Gawker itself states that they have lost thousands and could even lose millions. Full quote: "I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions." Eldritcher (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You say that "it received a very large focus from Gamergate" — that may be so, but that doesn't appear to have translated into anything actually meaningful. Gawker wrote that post a month ago, there's been no follow-up coverage and the matter appears to be a dead letter as far as the sources go. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that the contacting of the advertisers is featured on this article and this is the most high profile aspect of it, it should be included. Eldritcher (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're asking, then. We already include a discussion of the fact that Gamergate supporters have contacted advertisers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- The description is very lacking because it overlooks the main reason for contacting Gawker's advertisers. Eldritcher (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're asking, then. We already include a discussion of the fact that Gamergate supporters have contacted advertisers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that the contacting of the advertisers is featured on this article and this is the most high profile aspect of it, it should be included. Eldritcher (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You say that "it received a very large focus from Gamergate" — that may be so, but that doesn't appear to have translated into anything actually meaningful. Gawker wrote that post a month ago, there's been no follow-up coverage and the matter appears to be a dead letter as far as the sources go. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof: Considering how many times I have see that issue about space, why not just split the article and leave the important details on this page? --Super Goku V (talk) 04:11, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was not a single tweet, but multiple tweets. Other people from the network also showed support. It received a very large focus from GamerGate. Furthermore, it seems odd to say that the media has stopped paying attention to this when several articles on the topic have been released during the last four days alone. As for Gawker not having been materially affected, an article by Gawker itself states that they have lost thousands and could even lose millions. Full quote: "I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions." Eldritcher (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Split the article into...what? We don't do preferred versions around here. Tarc (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe he just means that some aspects of the controversy could be split into separate articles in order to cut down on the main article. You're reading too much into it. That said, I'm not sure if the aspects are noteworthy enough on their own. The only one that I could imagine being split is the very case of "Operation Disrespectful Nod" and even then I'm on the edge. Eldritcher (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is, there is no sub parts of the controversy that could be logically split off and significantly reduce article length. I really don't think there is a way to split this. HalfHat 16:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe he just means that some aspects of the controversy could be split into separate articles in order to cut down on the main article. You're reading too much into it. That said, I'm not sure if the aspects are noteworthy enough on their own. The only one that I could imagine being split is the very case of "Operation Disrespectful Nod" and even then I'm on the edge. Eldritcher (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Split the article into...what? We don't do preferred versions around here. Tarc (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Tarc, Eldritcher, and Halfhat: Now that some time has passed, I kind of regret my suggestion though I do believe that something needs to be done in relation to the size issue that comes up every few days. To clarify my question, what I meant was that we have an article with only the important details for the reader with a second article with an expanded focus on the details of the topic. (To be honest, I believe that I might have jumbled up how two articles with related events work together with an article with a separate article on an event related to the first.) After hearing what was said and what I believe, I realized what I am asking might be closer to an addendum than two split articles. Having reread Misplaced Pages:Splitting and Misplaced Pages:Article size, I feel like the article needs a split and that we cannot do a split at this time since we lack enough details. Still, thanks for the replies and sorry for the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what needs done is to cut out a lot of the "Such and such said (s)he thought". However one of the problems here is people will start accusing you of POV pushing, well especially someone like me who's pretty involved and been accused of being an SPA. Maybe we should ask for uninvolved editors to come in and suggest what should be cut. HalfHat 08:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there might be issues with how to bring uninvolved editors in, but I would say that it is a very good option. Would it need to be done through an RfC? --Super Goku V (talk) 05:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what needs done is to cut out a lot of the "Such and such said (s)he thought". However one of the problems here is people will start accusing you of POV pushing, well especially someone like me who's pretty involved and been accused of being an SPA. Maybe we should ask for uninvolved editors to come in and suggest what should be cut. HalfHat 08:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Tarc, Eldritcher, and Halfhat: Now that some time has passed, I kind of regret my suggestion though I do believe that something needs to be done in relation to the size issue that comes up every few days. To clarify my question, what I meant was that we have an article with only the important details for the reader with a second article with an expanded focus on the details of the topic. (To be honest, I believe that I might have jumbled up how two articles with related events work together with an article with a separate article on an event related to the first.) After hearing what was said and what I believe, I realized what I am asking might be closer to an addendum than two split articles. Having reread Misplaced Pages:Splitting and Misplaced Pages:Article size, I feel like the article needs a split and that we cannot do a split at this time since we lack enough details. Still, thanks for the replies and sorry for the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
References
- http://www.inquisitr.com/1561606/gamergate-gawker-loses-bmw-mercedes-and-adobe-advertising-due-to-bullying-gamers/
- http://digiday.com/brands/gamergate-experiences-mixed-success/
- http://www.businessinsider.com/adobe-pulls-gawker-sponsorship-2014-10
- http://gawker.com/how-we-got-rolled-by-the-dishonest-fascists-of-gamergat-1649496579
Scrap/Rewrite?
With all the changes that have happened over the course of the movement, would a scrap of the article as it is now, and a complete rewrite (Taking much of the talking points and notes into consideration) be warranted? I'm not the best writer, but I'll see what I can come up with just to field the idea and link it somewhere when I'm not at work. (Which I am now.) Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I have thought about that, and someone has put work into a possible one, https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kaciemonster/gamergate . I had some early involvement but ended up going back to working on the main. HalfHat 14:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
That's a terrible draftThere are major issues with the draft. BLP claims—including criminal accusations—cited to self-published and unreliable sources (which I've asked Kaciemonster to remove). Also issues with UNDUE, where it seems like every part of the controversy gets eight sentences in two paragraphs, no matter how significant or insignificant. Woodroar (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2014 (UTC)- Agree with Woodroar. Calling false accusations the "Quinnspiracy" rather than "False accusations" is right out. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:28, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'll give it a go on Monday morning sometime after my shift ends, or tomorrow (Sunday, Nov 30). It may not change anything, but with Gamergate largely having run its course, it might not hurt to start over with the entry. At the very least, it would help get some of the info included in the talk page, included in the entry itself. There are several good points that have been raised, both pro and against the movement, it's just a matter of sorting out the (to use a saying from my home) "bat shit crazy" from the ones that are valid points. One example being the Newsweek articles, and the counter to their statistical analysis. There's a link to that somewhere, but I can't find it right now. Kitsunedawn (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Scrapping the entire article seems a bit extreme (and fairly unnecessary); the basic structure of the current / draft article is good. It goes into too much depth on certain tangential side-controversies and it has a bit too much back-and-forth claim-counterclaim with quotes, but those are things that can easily be fixed by trimming down unnecessary bits. --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Chalk the wording of the talk here up to me working a god awful shift and half asleep. Basically what I'm suggesting is taking the tangential controversies out, paring things down to the base controversy of GamerGate. In a way, starting over, but based on all the information to this point. I've a few drafts of certain sections that I've done recently, and will post them shortly. Kitsunedawn (talk) 21:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Scrapping the entire article seems a bit extreme (and fairly unnecessary); the basic structure of the current / draft article is good. It goes into too much depth on certain tangential side-controversies and it has a bit too much back-and-forth claim-counterclaim with quotes, but those are things that can easily be fixed by trimming down unnecessary bits. --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'll give it a go on Monday morning sometime after my shift ends, or tomorrow (Sunday, Nov 30). It may not change anything, but with Gamergate largely having run its course, it might not hurt to start over with the entry. At the very least, it would help get some of the info included in the talk page, included in the entry itself. There are several good points that have been raised, both pro and against the movement, it's just a matter of sorting out the (to use a saying from my home) "bat shit crazy" from the ones that are valid points. One example being the Newsweek articles, and the counter to their statistical analysis. There's a link to that somewhere, but I can't find it right now. Kitsunedawn (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If we are going to do a rewrite I'd suggest waiting until there is some writing about in hindsight (and if there isn't then I think we'd need a serious discussion about whether to keep this). HalfHat 09:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request Nov. 29, 2014
Add new section "Further reading" with link
- Gurney Halleck, A People's History of Gamergate. www.historyofgamergate.com/
Nice documented presentation of the pro-gg perspective. Carrite (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Would seem to run afoul of several aspects WP:ELNO that frown upon blogs and self-promotional websites, so I would oppose this. Tarc (talk) 17:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:ELNO, particularly given the unverified/false accusations and insinuations regarding living people contained in the page. We have no reason to link to a page that furthers Gamergate's harassment campaigns against Zoe Quinn. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Gurney Halleck is a character in the Dune series of SF books, by Frank Herbert. Does WP allow pseudonymous sourcing?ReynTime (talk) 14:32, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If it were the case that this semi-anonymous, self-published essay gained significant attention in reliable sources, we would consider it a possibility to include. (Another case, but not here, is if it was an essay published in a reliable source, but the author opted to say anonymous per request, that would be a possibility). But we're not here with that yet. --MASEM (t) 19:07, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Per WP:BLP, this will never be an external link on Misplaced Pages. External links about living persons, whether in BLPs or elsewhere, are held to a higher standard than for other topics. ... Questionable or self-published sources should not be included in the "Further reading" or "External links" sections of BLPs, and, when including such links in other articles, make sure the material linked to does not violate this policy. The material being linked to is in flagrant violation of BLP. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If it were the case that this semi-anonymous, self-published essay gained significant attention in reliable sources, we would consider it a possibility to include. (Another case, but not here, is if it was an essay published in a reliable source, but the author opted to say anonymous per request, that would be a possibility). But we're not here with that yet. --MASEM (t) 19:07, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- I reckon I'm starting to see why the ProGGers have a beef with "ownership" and House POV issues with this article if something as temperate and well documented as that link is tossed aside for apparently ideological reasons or a specious reading of our BLP policies (take your pick). Carrite (talk) 18:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not sure what you expected. WP:ELNO is quite clear that links like this should be avoided. It's a personal webpage from a pseudonymous writer with no established authority on the subject. — Strongjam (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- What part of "self-published defamatory claims about living people aren't permitted in external links" is unclear? It doesn't matter how "temperate" you believe it's written - this is an anonymous blog which presents defamatory claims about living people, and as such, is clearly prohibited by policy from being used as an external link.
- We don't put anonymous external links in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories that say "Barack Obama is a Marxist Muslim Communist usurper," so I'm not sure why you think we should put anonymous external links in Gamergate controversy that make similarly-defamatory accusations against Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just read the article, and yeah, there are definite BLP issues. There are claims and flat out assertions there that if written in Misplaced Pages would be (and have been) rev-deleted. There is no way this is linked to in the article. — Strongjam (talk) 19:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Reducing the quotefarmy-ness of the article.
I think one of the main problems with the article, at the moment, is how it basically trails into a massive block of back-and-forth quotes at the end. We need to trim these down somehow. In general, remember that the purpose of the quotes is to illustrate some relevant opinion -- the goal isn't to capture what every single public figure has stated, or to list people you agree with in order to make arguments by proxy; the goal (at least, in an article like this) is to use quotes to capture overarching mainstream coverage and to describe the views of the people directly involved. A good quote should have prose text surrounding it that lets the user knows why they should care about what this person has to say -- eg. "many commentators have said XYZ, such as..." --Aquillion (talk) 17:30, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Much of the last section of the article was added from the first month or so of the GG situation, and reflect issues with recentism. We're a good 3 months out, sourcing has somewhat died down, so we should be able to trim away most of those quotes without losing the sources. As I've suggested before, the key quotes should be from people that directly have skin in the game, to speak - Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, people like Leigh Alexander or Stephan Tolito (due to their websites being affected); people simply commenting on the situation should not be quoted in full as much as we are, but instead pulling brief text from those, at best. --MASEM (t) 07:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request, 1 December 2014
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Uncontroversial spelling correction - our article currently says "Nathan Greyson" in the lead, but the correct spelling is "Nathan Grayson," as per . NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Lede improvement
Moved from the Gamergate ArbCom thing for a chance for a productive discussion. DHeyward believes that the first paragraph of the article unduly concludes "that a fringe position is the dominant cultural view of gaming," and while I don't quite see how he's reading that, I think I feel what he's getting at, and if we can make things clearer, we should. I'll not put words in his mouth and will let DHeyward explain in more detail if he so chooses (and I hope he will). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The opening sentence is
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture."
The premise outlined in the ArbCom case by NBSB is that gamergater supporters are a small, fringe element (If the article does not make clear that "Gamergate" does not represent all gamers (rather, it is a small fringe within the community), then I agree with you that we should make that distinction clearer.
. I believe that was accurate. The opening line attributes it to "video game culture" in general. It says "the movement is rooted in a culture war against women." I do not know how the view that gamergate is a fringe element is juxtaposed against the wider community without any of the fringe coverage rules. If it's fringe, why aren't we using WP:FRINGE as the guideline and balancing the fringe gamergate harassment? Why don't we say that a "small, fringe minority of gamergate supporters engaged in harassment and misogyny." My counter example was 9/11 hijackers and Islam. Coverage at the time was not lacking in the religious identification of the terrorists. However, I hope we would recognize that they were fringe and treat their form of religious observance as generally unrelated to Islam as it is a fringe expression. It would be quite offensive to use a specific terrorist attack as a springboard to a more general discussion about Islam. Either the article is about the fringe harassment campaign, in which case the fringe aspect is missing. Or it's a mainstream article on video game culture, in which case the fringe harassment shouldn't be the prominent lead-in sentence. --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC) --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's a good point. Perhaps other editors could comment also, as well as a reply from North. starship.paint ~ regal 09:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) Yeah, actually, I see what you're saying here, and I think I get where the confusion is coming from. It's definitely true that the really severe harassment/misogyny comes from a fringe element, but the entire movement is seen as being tainted by an inability or unwillingness to repudiate or move beyond that misogynistic harassment, and that became a springboard for reliable sources to discuss broader issues of sexism in video gaming, which are viewed as longstanding problems in a wide part of the community (so much so that we have an article about it). In fact, why don't we just straight-up go with that?
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and resulted in widespread debate about issues of sexism in video gaming."
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. I think the second sentence adequately sums up what each side claims. Stating the mainstream argument that Gamergate is "a culture war against women" is more or less properly repeating the argument that it's misogynist but in perhaps a less inflammatory way, and we use "misogyny" a bunch in the second paragraph so much so that I think the point is well and truly made at any rate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This goes back to a point I made a few months ago, that at the core, there are actually two controversies that are named Gamergate, but which once is dominate depends on who you ask: there is the controversy as it exists from the GG side, in which they believe there's ethics issues in journalism and want to correct that, but with the fact that harassment has occurred and tainted their message; and there is the much more predominate controversy over the movement itself (not the issues it raises) by the press about the use of harassment and threats to try to affect journalism or even just to silence opponents. The article does not presently do a good job making this distinction. As I've suggested before, we should piece the central topic - which controversy is key - and write the article to clearly make sure it is understand that the presentation of details is towards that controversy.
- It would seem obvious per COMMONNAME that this article should be about the "controversy over the Gamergate movement", in which case saying that controversy is about sexism and misogyny is correct. While it would be more impartial to frame the article as the "controversy from the Gamergate side" or as the "Gamergate movement" (in which we would start with establishing their FRINGE position before moving onto the harassment issues and strong criticism against it), that's going to be a lot more difficult to write towards without it being too much of a soapbox for GG particularly due to the lack of sourcing. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except that, as far as I can tell none of the RS that have covered this subject are saying that there are two controversies, and it is the RS on any subject that then informs the page and its contents. Whilst I have no doubt that you sincerely believe that there are two controversies going under the name 'Gamergate', unless this can be backed up using RS then it remains WP:OR and, I'm afraid to say, unable to used in Misplaced Pages.
- Yes, many the RS used in the article do state that the stated objectives and claims of Gamergate supporters are x; however, given that x has already been included in the article (and there isn't enough evidence from RS to spin off x into a new page), I do not see how trying to create two separate pages on the Gamergate controversy can achieve anything, except maybe accidentally remove or silence the requisite balance already included in the page.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The purpose of our article is not to make everyone who visits it happy; I daresay there are plenty of articles here that make visitors unhappy. But I think that if we go by the reliable sources it's clear that Gamergate's notability comes primarily from harassment, which means it should be the main focus of our article -- outside of the harassment, it's just a few thousand people shouting at each other on Twitter and 8chan, so it's hardly surprising that that has no coverage. I think that there's also disagreements over what constitutes "harassment" -- my impression is that most of the reliable sources discussing harassment in the article include things like spreading debunked rumors about people in order to destroy their reputation, or having huge mobs of people constantly focus waves of tweets on people who have earned GG's ire for one reason or another. If you include that, I think it's reasonable to say that the majority of GG is about harassment, at least in the sense that that's most of what the hashtag is used for... and this is why there's so many reliable sources characterizing it that way. People within Gamergate (the people who, as you're saying, come to this article and are unhappy because they feel it portrays them in a negative light) would probably argue that those things aren't harassment -- that the accusations are true, that they're just talking to those people, that having a bunch of people insulting you on Twitter when you offend them is just a normal part of being on the internet, etc -- but we have to go by what the reliable sources say, and they characterize the majority of what's done under the #Gamergate tag as harassment, not just a small minority.
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, maybe, my impression (and what I think most of the more reliable sources say) is that the second goal -- the ethics goal -- is primarily about a culture war against so-called SJWs and feminism in particular (what was once called "political correctness", too, although that terms seems to have mostly fallen out of use). If you read the RSes in the article that have taken the time to read and analyze the various Gamergate manifestos and focus on the reddit and forums where they congregate, it's reasonably clear that that what Gamergate means when they say "corruption" in gaming is, usually, "feminists and SJWs advancing their wicked agenda", with the movement as a whole being marked by a total fixation on anything it can use as a line of attack against those ideological enemies, and near-total disinterest in anything that doesn't involve attacking them. Again, it's more an argument over definitions than a focus on different parts of the movement -- people within Gamergate feel that its primary targets have committed major ethical breaches, while most of the sources from outside it feel that they haven't and that Gamergate is targeting them for ideological reasons. (And, of course, this ties back into the first point, in that when commentators dismiss the ethical breaches Gamergate is fixated on as clearly trivial-to-nonexistent, that means that constantly trying to use them to attack the reputation of individuals becomes, at least in the eyes of the media, a form of harassment.)
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
Sorry about that, for some reason my brain read your post as suggesting two separate pages. I blame a combination of flu and chemo for my reading failure.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 18:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC) - Beautifully put, Aquillion. Hustlecat 18:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I endorse everything Aquillion said above, and there's no need for me to try and repeat this excellent summation of the issue. There is a reason that reliable sources have dismissed the "ethics in gaming journalism" line, and it is not that every reliable source is part of a vast, insidious conspiracy against Gamergate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The thing here is that do we absolutely need to say "harassment and misogyny" in the first sentence when it can be stated in the second (or a third) sentence of the lead without losing any other context/weight/etc? Because it is a debatable issue between the key party (the proGG side) and the way the press reports, stating that issue in the very first sentences sets a tone that is unencyclopedic. Waiting for one more sentence, or even adding a third to read better, doesn't change the weight, doesn't change the predominate viewpoint, but simply makes the article less aggressive from the start and puts use in a neutral stance on the matter.
- Eg The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement has been broadly condemned by mass media as sexist and misogynistic due to continued harassment and threats made under the Gamergate hashtag, targeting primarily female individuals in the video game industry. Everything is still there, it sets the stage for the rest of the article, but it avoids us (WP) from stating in WP's voice what the controversy is about, but atttributing it to the proper groups in the second and third sentences. --MASEM (t) 19:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think "the majority" can easily be defended, but "overwhelming" is unnecessary. Tweaked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Instead of "sexism in video games" how about "gender issues in video games" (same link otherwise). Consider the proGG disagre about what they see as a strong push of feminist ideals into the vg culture. That's not so much sexism but it is a gender issue. Note that I am agreeing that something that is common to the whole issue that both sides have touched on is reasonable to include in the first sentence, and it's not that "sexism" is not appropriate but I think there's a more precise phrase we can use. --MASEM (t) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
Sexism in gaming is a long-documented, much-debated but seemingly intractable problem. It’s also the crux of the industry’s biggest ongoing battle being waged on Twitter under the hashtag “#GamerGate.”
I think "sexism in video games" is a fair and well-sourced descriptor for the lede. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's reasonable then. As noted, it's not that "sexism in video games" (or perhaps "sexism in the video game industry") is wrong, but it is probably the best word that covers all fundamental issues. --MASEM (t) 19:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate has never been about sexism in gaming. That discussion has been going on for years. Gamergate is different because it started from slut-shaming and harassment of real life people about real-life events. Once you go beyond that, into sexism (or violence) in video games, it's no longer GG but a rabbit hole of history and a much larger social issue than gaming culture. The big names that have made GG mainstream issues are not gamers and their position cannot be attributed to gaming culture. Sommers and Baldwin, for instance are not representative of gaming culture. --DHeyward (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
If you live with somebody who likes to play video games - and millions of adults do - you won't have escaped hearing about Gamergate. It's rocked the hundred billion-dollar video gaming industry with allegations of sexism and misogyny. It started with an allegation against a female gamer of sexual favours for good reviews and quickly turned into an all-out culture war.
The public debate about Gamergate is about sexism and misogyny in the video gaming industry/community, full stop. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you've missed the bigger point by focusing about "ethics in journalism." That is not what we contrast in the opening sentence. We juxtapose harassment and misogyny by one fringe element of gamergate supporters against gaming culture as a whole. Is harassment and misogyny a fringe position or is it the mainstream position of gaming culture? If it's fringe, then we need to say it's fringe. The ethics argument might represent a large portion of gamergate supporters and can be juxtaposed against the smaller fringe element of harassers. But the real problem is the juxtaposition of harassers within the gaming community overall which is how we are framing the article. I think it shows that
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture."
is simply wrong as "misogyny and harassment" is a fringe viewpoint in video game culture (so is "ethics in journalism"). That doesn't dismiss the harassment and misogyny occured just as an "ISIS suicide bomber" is a fringe expression if Islam. We wouldn't ever leap to news sources that link the religion of a billion people to a suicide bomber even though "Islamic State" is in every single reliable source. It's fringe and fringe says to be very careful in using news sources for recentism events. The false balance that gets repeated is the harassment and misogyny are more prominent that ethics in journalism so it's okay to label the entire culture. As it's fringe, the opening sentence could easily read"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and has been largely defined by a small, fringe group that harassed specific game developers and journalists."
--DHeyward (talk) 19:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- It may not be the core position of any particular person you ask, but it is certainly the core of the events that have transpired (per RSes) and the core of what has made Gamergate notable in the first place (again per RSes). Hustlecat 19:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Formal proposal for consensus-gathering
OK, here's what I formally propose:
The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. Some Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible for ongoing harassment and threats, targeting primarily women in the video game industry. These attacks have been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic by media, video gaming academics, industry and community figures.
This addresses DHeyward's concern — one which I believe is fair — that the current version does not properly attribute the "misogyny" and "harassment" aspects directly to the movement, and instead appears to apply it to video gaming culture as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "broadly condemned by the mass media as..." (and possibly "ongoing harassment") but I feel that's an improvement without conceding away the majority viewpoint (keeping the right weight). --MASEM (t) 20:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not wild about it, but it is acceptable so that we can move forward. Tarc (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have precise wording, but I think it would be fair to indicate that the nature of the concerns about ethics in journalism revolve around treatment of sexism in video games. In other words, there's very little concern about mainstream game publishers influencing reviews in favor of traditional games with scantily clad babes; there is a lot of concern about an alleged force-feeding of anti-sexist ideology. Spit-balling here, maybe something like
- "While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, these concerns revolve around a perception that feminist views are being imposed on reviews by writers and editors, and a search for malfeasance by publishers (such as Gawker Publications and Kotaku) that advocate for less sexism in games." Msalt (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Being imposed on reviews" by the very people who write reviews? I haven't seen any statement of any kind -- reputable or otherwise -- from a writer or an editor saying they were forced to change the wording of a review to make it more in line with "feminist views." Reviewers remarking on issues of sexism in games are doing so entirely of their own accord, as is their right as reviewers expressing their own sentiments. If you are suggesting that outside forces have been pressuring reviewers and editors into denouncing sexism in games when they would not choose to do so on their own, I would like to see sources for that. ReynTime (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what he's saying is that that's the allegation (silly as it is) that Gamergate is putting forth. I think this proposal gets too much into the weeds for the lede — let's just say what Gamergate supporters think, say that pretty much everyone else thinks something else and leave it at that. Details of what Gamergate believes about "ethics in gaming journalism" can be expounded upon in the body text. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's why I'd like a clarification. As I understand it, Gamergate's position (to the extent that there is a unified position on anything in this "movement") is that reviewers ought not to be allowed to discuss sexism in reviews. This was the reasoning behind their boycott of a particular Bayonetta 2 review. As in, a reviewer saying that he or she finds a game sexist should be redacted to remove that sentiment from the review -- in effect, a pro-censorship position. The justification for this was that it was "unfair" to the game to mention sexist content and perhaps could negatively affect the developer bonuses to give them a lower review number due to sexism issues, because some companies have tied developer bonuses to a game's Metacritic score; thus, lowering a game's score due to finding it sexist is "unethical" because it unfairly reduces the devleper's income. I have had great difficulty in following the logic behind this thinking but since Msalt is proposing adding it I thought he might be able to explain and source it. ReynTime (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The proposed lede looks okay to me. The only problem I have with it is that, as an opening paragraph, it feels a little clunky and its internal flow gets broken up in the second sentence. Maybe:
- That's why I'd like a clarification. As I understand it, Gamergate's position (to the extent that there is a unified position on anything in this "movement") is that reviewers ought not to be allowed to discuss sexism in reviews. This was the reasoning behind their boycott of a particular Bayonetta 2 review. As in, a reviewer saying that he or she finds a game sexist should be redacted to remove that sentiment from the review -- in effect, a pro-censorship position. The justification for this was that it was "unfair" to the game to mention sexist content and perhaps could negatively affect the developer bonuses to give them a lower review number due to sexism issues, because some companies have tied developer bonuses to a game's Metacritic score; thus, lowering a game's score due to finding it sexist is "unethical" because it unfairly reduces the devleper's income. I have had great difficulty in following the logic behind this thinking but since Msalt is proposing adding it I thought he might be able to explain and source it. ReynTime (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what he's saying is that that's the allegation (silly as it is) that Gamergate is putting forth. I think this proposal gets too much into the weeds for the lede — let's just say what Gamergate supporters think, say that pretty much everyone else thinks something else and leave it at that. Details of what Gamergate believes about "ethics in gaming journalism" can be expounded upon in the body text. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Being imposed on reviews" by the very people who write reviews? I haven't seen any statement of any kind -- reputable or otherwise -- from a writer or an editor saying they were forced to change the wording of a review to make it more in line with "feminist views." Reviewers remarking on issues of sexism in games are doing so entirely of their own accord, as is their right as reviewers expressing their own sentiments. If you are suggesting that outside forces have been pressuring reviewers and editors into denouncing sexism in games when they would not choose to do so on their own, I would like to see sources for that. ReynTime (talk) 21:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture. The majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture, but many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic.
- as an alternative?--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The deeper mindset that I gather from reading proGG information is that they believe that they fear that there is a strong collusion by feminists and people that support them to drive the hard-core "gamer" out of video games and/or changing the demographic away from them; the things we do see like their request for disclosures or their demand for more "objective" reviews (eg leaving sexism or any other political/moral points out of it in favor of graphics and gameplay) are short-term steps towards exposing that. Some of the culture war stories we have sourced allude to this concern. Some of these concerns like the need to feed the MetaCritic beast is something they do share with journalists, but as well described, the tainting of GG by harassment is not helping in these legit aspects to be discussed in any manner. --MASEM (t) 00:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- If this "formal proposal" by North will add in Masem's addition of "condemned by the mass media" - then I support. starship.paint ~ regal 00:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The phrase "mass media" pigeonholes the criticism, though — there's been pretty broad condemnation of the harassment from figures not just in the media, but in academia, the video games industry and gaming culture — which goes toward DHeyward's point of ensuring we don't conflate the small minority with the broader majority. I'm not opposed to some phrasing there, but "mass media" is not broad enough. How about
media, academics and video gaming figures
? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- IMO it is very natural for others in the gaming industry to condemn harassment of game developers. Pardon my ignorance but could you inform me which are the condemnations coming from academics? starship.paint ~ regal 00:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's the whole DiGRA thing, for one. and . Others: , , etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, (I didn't listen to the Iowa one though and it's not condemned in words) the main problem I see is with "broadly condemned". I don't doubt that GamerGate is broadly condemned by those in the video games industry and the mass media, but would it be accurate to say that it is "broadly condemned" by academics? That would require many more examples. Perhaps if you cancel "broadly", then you can mention academics. starship.paint ~ regal 00:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would more say that we only have a couple data points so far from the academic side to say that is been condemned (if not broadly condemned), though that's not to say that this is likely the academics' position, simply a lack of sourcing for it. VG industry we can speak to, the mass media we can speak to, but we can't speak to academics. My only concern with adding a phrase of the type "by the mass media" is to make sure the "who" is addressed so they know exactly where to look in our article for sources to confirm, any clarification towards that point, I'm fine with. --MASEM (t) 00:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can keep finding more sources if need be. , , , , , , etc. etc. How many would you like? Considering that the world of video gaming academia is not particularly huge, this is a significant cross-section. I don't think the statement should be particularly controversial — we can qualify by saying "gaming academics" if that narrows the field sufficiently. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah okay you can leave in "broadly", and go with "gaming academics". starship.paint ~ regal 01:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Two quick things: first wordsmithing to remove the doubly-close "and" as well as grouping things better: "...condemned by the video game industry and academics, the media, and community figures as...". Second is a bit of small correct " The movement's harassment and threats, which have..." - we don't have 100% connection of the movement to harassment, but we do know the harassment was done under the GG banner. So instead "Harassment and threats generated by users under the Gamergate hashtag/banner, which have..." might be better. --MASEM (t) 01:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- And if that second piece is reasonable, we should be able able to add "Harassment and threats....are sexist and misogynistic, and has considered to have tainted and overshadowed the movement's concerns." or some wording to re-add about how this has harmed the image of the movement, as this is a key point in the article. --MASEM (t) 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, I think if we go there, it's going to get way too much into the debate over "does Gamergate have legitimate concerns" which is a contentious discussion best left where it is, the third paragraph NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- As much as it can be called a movement, the harassment has been attributed to it. That is, you can't enjoy the benefits of a single flag when you want them and, at the same time, deny collective responsibility when you don't want it. Proposing
Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible for ongoing harassment and threats, targeting primarily women in the video game industry. These attacks have been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic by media, video gaming academics, industry and community figures.
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:51, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- I understand and agree with the point, but I'm not 100% sure that we can say "GG supporters are widely views as responsible for ..."; many sources, at least as I take them, know that the main body of GG users aren't likely doing the harassment, but their inability to stop it, condemn it, or distance themselves from it makes them complicit in some reporters' view. Others take the view that GG is directly responsible. We know that whomever did the harassing inferred via hashtagging or the like, no question there. So perhaps "Harassment and threats performed under the GG name..." and then don't add the second suggestion. It doesn't factually say the movement's at fault but neither clears them, nor begs the question of their ethics like you said. --MASEM (t) 02:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. That's from The New York Times. The NYT directly attributes the threats and harassment to supporters of Gamergate. We're not saying all supporters of Gamergate, but they are supporters of Gamergate. "Performed under the GG name" infers that the harassment isn't really aligned with Gamergate, and that's the precise opposite of what the sources say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changed the font to not confuse with proposed wording. I think allied with a broader movement as per the New York Times is the whole point. Perhaps
A portion of Gamergate supporters are widely viewed as responsible
... etc. Actually there might be a small distinction between "allied with" and "is a part of" but I'm not too inclined to pursue that further. starship.paint ~ regal 03:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)- True enough, Starship; I've tweaked it to "some." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm fine with "some" for purposes of lead brevity. --MASEM (t) 04:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- True enough, Starship; I've tweaked it to "some." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think "video game academics" exist do they (I think "social critics" might be better term)? Harassment has been condemned by virtually everyone. Sexism being condemned in the gaming industry would be done by social critics, certain journalists and named developers. Condemnation of sexism/tropes/male gaze has been much more limited to specific instances by much smaller critics (i.e. Sarkheesian is a social critic that highlights these issues) . The Blizzard CEO, for example, condemned harassment which was reported as a condemnation of GamerGate. He then introduced his next game containing trope/male gaze characters and nobody batted an eye. Again harassment is to GamerGate what Terrorism is to Islam. The same people that stood up and applauded the Blizzard CEO for condemning harassment then bought/reviewed his trope/male gaze video game. What gamers, developers and publishers didn't want to hear (and didn't as only only one or two journalists picked it up) was that they were misogynists for buying and/or playing the game. The article needs to be careful about attributing identities with actions. More careful than the press. It's very likely that harassers/misogynists support gamergate. (ISIS terrorist are very likel islamic). Not nearly as incendiary as saying supporters of GamerGate are harassers/misogynists ("supporters of Islam are ISIS terrorists."). This is the pitfall of identity politics and flipping the equivalency is not okay (except for those that oppose both identities). --DHeyward (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, video game academics exist. Hence, y'know, Digital Games Research Association. The rest of your post is veering off into a different territory and I'd like to keep this thread on topic. You're right that Gamergate doesn't represent all gamers, and that's fair enough reason to tweak on the lede so that it doesn't suggest so. But Gamergate, the movement, is inextricably tied to misogynistic harassment and to pretend otherwise simply isn't in keeping with the clear and unambiguous consensus of reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changed the font to not confuse with proposed wording. I think allied with a broader movement as per the New York Times is the whole point. Perhaps
- The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. That's from The New York Times. The NYT directly attributes the threats and harassment to supporters of Gamergate. We're not saying all supporters of Gamergate, but they are supporters of Gamergate. "Performed under the GG name" infers that the harassment isn't really aligned with Gamergate, and that's the precise opposite of what the sources say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I understand and agree with the point, but I'm not 100% sure that we can say "GG supporters are widely views as responsible for ..."; many sources, at least as I take them, know that the main body of GG users aren't likely doing the harassment, but their inability to stop it, condemn it, or distance themselves from it makes them complicit in some reporters' view. Others take the view that GG is directly responsible. We know that whomever did the harassing inferred via hashtagging or the like, no question there. So perhaps "Harassment and threats performed under the GG name..." and then don't add the second suggestion. It doesn't factually say the movement's at fault but neither clears them, nor begs the question of their ethics like you said. --MASEM (t) 02:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- And if that second piece is reasonable, we should be able able to add "Harassment and threats....are sexist and misogynistic, and has considered to have tainted and overshadowed the movement's concerns." or some wording to re-add about how this has harmed the image of the movement, as this is a key point in the article. --MASEM (t) 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, (I didn't listen to the Iowa one though and it's not condemned in words) the main problem I see is with "broadly condemned". I don't doubt that GamerGate is broadly condemned by those in the video games industry and the mass media, but would it be accurate to say that it is "broadly condemned" by academics? That would require many more examples. Perhaps if you cancel "broadly", then you can mention academics. starship.paint ~ regal 00:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, there's the whole DiGRA thing, for one. and . Others: , , etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- IMO it is very natural for others in the gaming industry to condemn harassment of game developers. Pardon my ignorance but could you inform me which are the condemnations coming from academics? starship.paint ~ regal 00:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- The phrase "mass media" pigeonholes the criticism, though — there's been pretty broad condemnation of the harassment from figures not just in the media, but in academia, the video games industry and gaming culture — which goes toward DHeyward's point of ensuring we don't conflate the small minority with the broader majority. I'm not opposed to some phrasing there, but "mass media" is not broad enough. How about
Article focus: Is this WP article to be about the Gamergate group or the Gamergate controversy?
In reading the long discussions here and in other locations on WP such as the ArbCom pages, I’ve noticed that the editors on this article seem to have two conflicting ideas as to what this article is about. Some seem to believe the article is about describing a series of events that occurred in the video game industry in the fall of 2014. Some, by contrast, seem to believe that the article is about describing “Gamergaters”, the people behind the actions. We need to make a decision on what the focus is going to be as this will have a large bearing on what kind of statements we can appropriately make in the article itself.
For example, many new editors here and on the ArbCom pages appear to be very invested in describing the group of people calling themselves “Gamergaters.” They state that the article cannot refer to these people as “misogynistic” because that is passing a “moral judgment” on those people. (I disagree with this statement, incidentally, as I don’t believe this is an issue of moral judgment but simply one of description, but nevertheless that is what some editors are saying.) However, if the article is about the acts and not the people behind the acts, then obviously the acts themselves are clearly misogynistic and need to be stated as such in line with the RSes we have. And obviously it is immoral to send rape and death threats to industry figures, predominantly female, in an attempt to terrorize them out of the industry. I don’t think anyone can argue that that is moral behavior.
If the consensus is that the article is about the controversy and not the group, then these descriptions are required because there is no disagreement in the RSes about the awfulness of these actions. But if the article is to be about the group, it would need to be restructured, perhaps along the lines of the Anonymous (group) article, with a lede that we could, in fact, crib directly from that article and suitably adjust: Gamergate (used as a mass noun) is a loosely associated international network of entities organized primarily around Internet gathering areas such as Reddit and various anonymous image boards. It has been characterized by anonymous individuals claiming membership as being devoted to the cause of promoting ethics in game journalism. The group became known for a series of well-publicized harassment attacks on figures in the video game industry, predominantly women, pursued via Twitter, email, and other anonymous digital attack vectors.
Then have a section to list the most notable attacks; the group's (short) history, genesis, and christening, to the extent that it is known; a section for analysis of the validity of the group's claims; and a section for the reaction of the world in general to the group.
Also, the talk page here has gotten derailed onto a strange discussion about the "fringe" of Gamergate. This discussion is only relevant if the article is actually to be about the group itself and not the controversy, and in that case, I don't see how this concept of “fringe Gamergate” has any validity given that Gamergate, by conscious design, has no center. It has no official leaders, no membership roll, no standards, no official agenda. To be a member of Gamergate, literally all you have to do is utilize a certain Twitter hashtag for a certain purpose. You can’t talk about the “fringe” of Gamergate any more than you can talk about the “fringe” of Anonymous. So let’s try to get a consensus here: Is this article just about what was done under the Gamergate hashtag and rubric, in which case editors need to stop complaining about entirely apt and sourced terms like misogynistic, or is this article about the loose anonymous group calling itself Gamergate, in which case it needs a thorough restructuring? I am not certain that the group itself is notable enough to get a page dedicated to describing it – certainly they have done nothing nearly as impactful as the actions of Anonymous. But if this page is about the controversy, the actions themselves, then editors should stop asserting that statements made about the actions equate to statements made about the group. ReynTime (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've been using the term "fringe" to discuss the fact that Gamergate's claims clearly fall under Misplaced Pages's fringe theories guideline and in terms of making sure our article is clear that Gamergate is a fringe element within gaming culture, and doesn't represent even a significant minority of gamers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Right, I was mostly referring to DHeyward's and Masem's posts about the Gamergate "fringe", as in "the core of Gamergate isn't doing that bad stuff, it's the fringe." I'm not contesting that Gamergate is a fringe viewpoint, which it clearly is. ReynTime (talk) 10:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- This says otherwise . If Gamergate's concern were a fringe matter, why would have this source bothered to write an opinion article about it? Avono (talk) 10:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
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