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Perfect Example of Bloat

I copied this from the Electronic cigarette talk page section of the same name as the section being discussed became part of this new page. AlbinoFerret 02:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

The Environmental impact section, Relates to one source saying there is a gap in our knowledge. This doesn't need to be in the article, it's practically crystal ball. As yet we don't know the effects of e-cigarettes on the environment we also don't know their impact on souffles and space dust. A source saying "We don't know anything" doesn't mean the article needs a new section. Someone with a different position from me on e-cigs should turn up with some shears and trim this into a reasonable article. If I did it I'm sure some MED folks would claim bias towards e-cigs. SPACKlick (talk) 12:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There is way to much speculation and we dont need embellishments and small sections on speculative information. The article is already swimming in speculative information with the same speculation being repeated. How many times do you need to repeat something in different locations? Environmental impact sounds like its talking about hazardous waste. AlbinoFerret 13:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There was another claim from that same literary review, it was placed in Toxicology when it was clear from the source that it was talking about environmental impact of how its made. Its really not a health effect topic. I wasnt sure where to put it, so I put it in that environmental area until its discussed. This appears to be a fringe area, with very little weight.AlbinoFerret 14:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty confident that at some point it will be an area with enough information to deserve a section. E-cigs involve the manufacture of additional lithium batteries, disposable wicks and coils, production of the juice etc. However there's really been very little study of it so far. SPACKlick (talk) 14:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

More than likely there will be down the road. This literary review didnt come to any conclusions other than the more study is needed. Someone might do it down the road, but it could be years. Its just way to premature, speculative, and has little weight at this point. AlbinoFerret 14:21, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@SPACKlick: Today, QuackGuru, thinking that it was only a problem because of only a few sentence filled up the section with claims from that one study and made it viable. The problem isnt that it only has a few sentences, the problem is weight WP:WEIGHT and pure speculation WP:CBALL with no other studies talking about it. The reason other speculation is allowed is because there is more than one review on the topic, so it has weight of some degree.

• The current version of the environmental impact section cites this source:

• Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes". Tobacco Control. 23 (Supplement 2): ii54–ii58. doi:10.1136/tobaccocontrol-2013-051480. ISSN 0964-4563.

The source is presumed to be useful because it was published by experts in the field. I oppose the deletion of material published by expert reviewers in a field who are presenting the best available information. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bluerasberry. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:PS Says it's wrong to base an entire article on primary sources. An awful lot of this article is direct from primary sources. We have no idea of the impact of this paper, or if the comment that the current status of environmental effects is largely unknown will amount to anything. This article needs to focus more on meta-analyses and collective reviews and get away from posting every statement from every interest group and every piece of speculation in every published paper is my point. One scientific paper speculating that there may be an environmental impact especially when couching that speculation in the distinct lack of evidence in either direction is not sufficient to warrant inclusion in an article, let alone a section. SPACKlick (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:WEIGHT

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views.

One journal article is a tiny minority, it shouldnt be included at all. Perhaps a one line that says something like "A review by Cheng raised concerns about environmental impact from e-cigaretts" But a but a whole section places it in a position of prominence and gives way to much coverage for a single article on the subject. Find 4 or 5 and maybe it can be expanded. This isnt silencing a reliable source, this is giving it the appropriate weight when compared to all the other points of view with larger number of reliable sources. WP:WEIGHT specifically addresses this.

Undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view.

There isnt even a opposite viewpoint to make a controversy that needs to be addressed. Adding all that from one source is just premature. We have had this same discussion on McNeil, it didnt have the weight, neither does this one. AlbinoFerret 02:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Stating "A review by Cheng" is a clear violation. A WP:MEDRS compliant review should be given its WP:DUE weight. This is not a paper or a primary source. It is a recent review from experts which makes it the mainstream view. This is about quality. There are a number of WP:SECONDARY sources covering this subject but we are reaching a higher standard by using a review. I can expand the section by also using the minority view of secondary sources if editors wish. QuackGuru (talk) 05:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

That would be against WP:MEDRS. We should not lower the standards just to put in material that isnt just speculation, but highly speculative. If you want to use WP:DUE instead of WP:WEIGHT fine, they both lead to the same section of the page. Its due weight is little to none as shown in WP:DUE. The reason the provided sentence used the name of the review is its the only review to have this info, its a lone wolf. Its not a WP:ASSERT violation because the whole thing is just opinion, which you are adding as facts, thats a WP:OR problem. AlbinoFerret

Must have missed the "one" fact in the whole paragraph "Some brands have also began recycling services for their e-cigarette batteries". All the rest is "limited" "may" "unclear" and "unknown", those are opinions. AlbinoFerret 06:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:TRIV I have hidden the section, its a list of things from one source, and almost all opinion, if you want to move the fact, enjoy. AlbinoFerret 02:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:TRIV does not apply. I continue to agree with Bluerasberry: I oppose the deletion of material published by expert reviewers in a field who are presenting the best available information. Cloudjpk (talk) 05:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, WP:ASSERT still applies in this case even if you remove it from my comment. QuackGuru (talk) 21:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

That was inadvertent, I copied it, I must have cut on accident. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Was this also inadvertent? If it was an edit conflict it would not of happened.

Was this also inadvertent? You removed part of my comment. WP:TRIV is irrelevant to this discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 03:46, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I have brought questions on this to the WP:NPOVN. Here is a link AlbinoFerret 06:32, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Copyright issue

QuackGuru inserted a claim in the article

"Many of the observed negative effects from e-cigarette use concerning the nervous system and the sensory system are probably related to nicotine overdose or withdrawal."

It is an almost exact copy of the journal article.

"Many of the noted ‘negative’symptoms involved the neurological and sensory systems,likely due to nicotine overdose or withdrawal."

This needs to be paraphrased as the one is easily seen in the other. AlbinoFerret 16:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

That is not a copyright issue as it is not a close copy of the original. It is at worst plagiarism, but I think it is paraphrased enough to even avoid that charge, see WP:LIMITED, especially when dealing with a single short sentence. Feel free, if you feel it necessary to paraphrase further, though. Yobol (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I see it as a derivative work as written, that is a copyright issue. I would prefer the person who added it paraphrase, but if not done soon I will do it. AlbinoFerret 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

You pasted the entire sentence from the source without the text being in quotes or in-text attribution. That is a copyright violation on the talk page. The text in the body is in accordance with WP:LIMITED. Any rephrasing must not be original research. I can't think of another way to rewrite it. QuackGuru (talk) 20:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I added quotation marks to the line above. AlbinoFerret 23:42, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

You only added the quotation marks without proper attribution using a link to the source. QuackGuru (talk) 03:17, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Its in quotation marks. The quotation marks were enough, and since you gave a link, its taken care of. But its still a derivative work on the page, why dont you fix it since you added it? AlbinoFerret 03:56, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Suggest move aerosol-vs-vapor clarification from 'Ultrafine particles' to 'Mist' section

Most of the first paragraph under 'Ultrafine particles' explains the difference between an aerosol and a vapor, which is a bit out-of-place in a section for discussion of particles. I think it would be better fitting under the 'Mist' section, though I'm unsure exactly where to place it in order to avoid interrupting the flow of the paragraph. 139.216.67.84 (talk) 16:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

You might want to look at the Electronic cigarette talk page, the page that this page was taken out of, for reasons why mist/vapor/aerosol are a problem right now.AlbinoFerret 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

139.216.67.84, you are right. I will think of a better placement for the section. QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Conflicting statements from the same review

There are two claims right other by each other from the same review.

Metal particles in the fluid and aerosol were found from an e-cigarette study, however the study did not evaluate the relevance of the levels identified. A 2014 review found that theses levels was 10-50 times less that that allowed in medicines that are inhaled.

Hajek does identify the relevance of the amount of metals, on page 3 saying they are 10-50 times less than allowed in inhaled medicines. I also question the wording of the first claim, on page 3 of Hajek it says the study it was looking at in the review did not evaluate the metals, as it is written it looks like the review did not. AlbinoFerret 16:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Overly detailed and difficult to read lede

The lede is supposed to be the easiest to read section of the page. Its supposed to be a concise. WP:LEAD. The lede reads like a medical journal article. We need to make it less complex and as easy to read as possible. Right now it is 3 mammoth paragraphs. AlbinoFerret 23:50, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:LEADLENGTH, the lede should be 3 or four paragraphs. QuackGuru (talk) 03:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

That is not addressing the issue I pointed out. The lede is three times the lede in the E-cigarette, it reads like a journal article. Per WP:lead its supposed to be the easiest section of the article. Its supposed to be a easy to read summery of the page, its not. AlbinoFerret 04:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

The Article (minus lede) is 2,800 words. The lede is 550. We should be able to summarise the article in well under a fifth of the words. I may have a go this evening if I get time. SPACKlick (talk) 14:50, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Adding of Legal status material to a medical page

This edit added material that should be on the Legal status page.diff This is a medical page and should not be trying to emulate the main Electronic cigarette article. This is bloat. Shall I add a summery of Components, and Culture and society? AlbinoFerret 04:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Was the RFC Recommendations Ignored? "Vapor" is WRONG

There was a lengthy RFC on this and yet someone has altered the text once again to the incorrect claim that these devices disperse a vapor. The correct term is aerosol which I had thought was the winning commentary on the last RFC go-around.

Someone with a dog in the race continues to want to use the technically and scientifically incorrect term, almost certainly because he or she is vested in the industry which sells or markets these devices.

Remember, Misplaced Pages is supposed to be encyclopedic and the proper utilization of terms is important (or not) to various degrees. If you don't know (or don't care) what a vapor is as opposed to an aerosol, you should be asking other editors before you alter words, or you should comply with the findings of the RFCs which editors open, discuss, and assume to have been resolved.

This seemingly-endless alteration cycle is not important in the context of the extant article since it's likely anyone doing research understands the difference, yet anyone who reads the article and is not an editor is going to note the fact that the term being applied -- vapor -- is wrong. That looks bad for Misplaced Pages which the editors insisting on making the mistake should consider stop doing. Damotclese (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Please remember WP:AGF and try not to attribute shady motives to those who disagree with you. I am not aligned with the industry at all but believe Vapor is the most common term and most easily understood by general readers, we are not writing for scientists, researchers, or health professionals. The RFC is not closed, hopefully will be soon as a request for closing has been made. Until then, please wait as we all are. AlbinoFerret 16:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Damotclese is correct. Electronic cigarettes do not emit vapor according to the sources presented. AlbinoFerret wrote "Until then, please wait as we all are." But SPACKlick wasn't waiting. Since SPACKlick did not wait for the RFC to finish the edits should be reverted. There were a series of edits. Some of the edits changed the wording while the RF is still open. This happened at the Electronic cigarette page too. Sidenote: I tagged a word that I think is unsourced. QuackGuru (talk) 06:25, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Wording

"Aerosol generated from an e-cigarette is commonly but inaccurately referred to as ‘vapour.’ Vapour refers to the gaseous state of a substance; in contrast, an aerosol is a suspension of fine particles of liquid, solid or both in a gas". It is more accurate to state it is inaccurately called vapor according to the source.

The source says "...regulation of the e-cigarette should be considered on the basis of reported adverse health effects." I could not verify word "potential". The source used the word "reported". I removed the misleading text.

Spotted original research. Please read "Given these uncertainties, it is not clear whether the ultrafine particles delivered by e-cigarettes..." The sources says "particles". I removed the misleading text. QuackGuru (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• Point 1) I agree
• Point 2) The source says "However, regulation of the e-cigarette should be considered on the basis of reported adverse health effects." This is the opinion of the authors on how they think e-cigarette regulation should work and therefore needs to be attributed due to WP:YESPOV. Furthermore it is not a particularly useful sentence from the source - "on the basis of reported adverse health effects" - reported by whom? Directly by the user, or reported by the medical community? The source is not clear on this and we are left in the dark. The wording currently does not particularly represent the source accurately either. I suggest that this sentence is removed, in the mean time it has been improved and attributed.

• Point 3) It doesn't say just "particles" the source says "Given these uncertainties, it is not clear whether the ultrafine particles delivered by e-cigarettes have health effects and toxicity similar to the ambient fine particles generated by conventional cigarette smoke or secondhand smoke."Levelledout (talk) 23:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

• Point 2) The review does give examples of the "reported" potential effects to health. Therefore, it is useful to include it. QuackGuru (talk) 05:15, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

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