| Revision as of 23:33, 11 December 2014 view sourceSB Johnny (talk | contribs)6,118 edits →Damage to the brand: silly person, just read the thread!← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:58, 11 December 2014 view source SB Johnny (talk | contribs)6,118 edits →Congratulations: don't shoot the messenger, don't complain about the bed you made, etc.Next edit → | ||
| Line 207: | Line 207: | ||
| Finally, I wanted to specifically call out Mr. Writegeist for obnoxiousness. "are you silent because you are waiting for advice from PR people?" That's a completely uninformed nasty remark that bears no resemblance to the facts, and indicates such a total lack of knowledge of me and my character that I think you should really regret making it.--] (]) 17:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC) | Finally, I wanted to specifically call out Mr. Writegeist for obnoxiousness. "are you silent because you are waiting for advice from PR people?" That's a completely uninformed nasty remark that bears no resemblance to the facts, and indicates such a total lack of knowledge of me and my character that I think you should really regret making it.--] (]) 17:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :Mr. {{U|Writegeist}} posted his first comment 2 days ago, and you responded to a number of other comments between then and now. You ''do'' have a history of (seemingly) waiting for the archive bot rather than responding to uncomfortable questions. <p>Next time, maybe just say something along the lines of "I hear you, I agree, but I need another day or two to think. Worth a try. --] | <sup>]</sup>✌ 23:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Wikimedia genealogy project == | == Wikimedia genealogy project == | ||
Revision as of 23:58, 11 December 2014
| Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end. Start a new talk topic. |
 | He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis. |
 | This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated. |
| (Manual archive list) |
Article in the Register
The Register has published another article criticizing the Wikimedia Foundation for not using the $60 million in assets it has, which according to the article is "far more than the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) needs to run a website." (I say "another" because of articles like this). Do you, Mr. Wales, have anything to say about this? I.e. what is the purpose of the $60 million that the foundation is said to be "sitting on"? Everymorning talk to me 18:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- The article is by Andrew Orlowski, someone's whose journalistic skills I can't comment on here. --NeilN 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can. Past experience shows he's got a very long history of attacking Misplaced Pages, often with one-sided and inaccurate or downright untrue claims. He's also got form as an egregious climate change denialist. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. Prioryman (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- More diplomatic than I would have put it. :-) --NeilN 20:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the link, NeilN. I must have forgotten to do so myself for some reason. Everymorning talk to me 20:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- This one is easy. I'm extremely proud of our financial track record and consider our level of reserves to be prudent and sensible - neither too large nor too small. Here is some typical advice about nonprofit reserves: "A commonly used reserve goal is 3-6 months' expenses. At the high end, reserves should not exceed the amount of two years' budget." How much should my nonprofit have in its operating reserve? For further information from the Wikimedia Foundation, see this question and answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to expound on what Jimbo Wales said, the document he linked shows the 2014-2015 budget to be "$58.5 million in spending, including $8.2 million in spending allocated for grants". The article linked describes $60 million in reserve which is in line with a 12 month reserve, which is common. Rmosler | ● 22:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whoever said Orlowski was a professional journalist? He appears to come up with his story before he writes it, then cherry-picks or misrepresents facts to support his preferred spin. This is just more of the same. Prioryman (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I meant professional in what I consider the original sense, that is, someone who makes their living by means of full time employment in a particular activity. I did not intend to imply anything about the quality of the work carried out during that employment, nor about any ethical principles underlying the execution of it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- You allege Misplaced Pages runs no adds, but how about 14,000+ advertisement articles you have? How many more are there]? For example User:CorporateM is an openly payed editor who writes good advertisement articles, yet still advertisements, and get paid for writing them.121.40.91.74 (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Example, please? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is important for a non-profit to be able to support its operations for a suitable period if funds dry up for some reason, note also that this figure is for assets - so it includes the servers, any advanced payments, office furniture - and it doesn't take account of liabilities. Orlowski has been attacking Misplaced Pages for years, and has really lost all credibility where Misplaced Pages is concerned. See for example where he implied that only Misplaced Pages editors would want to read Misplaced Pages... (and here for why his Immanuel Kant argument was wrong.) However it might be ethical to go back to the model where the banner is removed the minute we hit our target. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC).
- The longevity of many very small non-profits (and especially large ones) rely on their endowments and safe investments to operate through tough times. Even minor things like accounting for inflation and increases in the cost of services becomes important when you operate off donations. Immanuel Kant is never someone I'd want to argue with, but his arguments have sizable holes once you pick through the layers. Gosh... David Hume is at Good Article nominations and we are here bringing Kant into the matter! Small world, especially since it is you who is bringing it up Rich! Haha. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone who wants to know how easy it is to end up with an endowment that loses significant amount of its worth through bad investing can ask Harvard what happened to its endowment causing it to institute a hiring freeze and stop its new science campus plans when the economy imploded and the Great Recession began. The core of an endowment shouldn't be used for day to day expenses, it is a rainy day fund and a source of dividend creation that can subsidize the ebb and flow inherent in normal flows of revenue.Camelbinky (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- The longevity of many very small non-profits (and especially large ones) rely on their endowments and safe investments to operate through tough times. Even minor things like accounting for inflation and increases in the cost of services becomes important when you operate off donations. Immanuel Kant is never someone I'd want to argue with, but his arguments have sizable holes once you pick through the layers. Gosh... David Hume is at Good Article nominations and we are here bringing Kant into the matter! Small world, especially since it is you who is bringing it up Rich! Haha. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's typical that the very first reaction here to the Register's article is to demean its writer. The issue many people have with this fundraising campaign is that the ads clearly imply that Misplaced Pages's survival is at stake, when it is not. The ads are clearly deceptive, and may violate laws in some countries. According to this discussion, more than a few Misplaced Pages insiders think the ads are misleading also. Misplaced Pages's survival is not at stake. Costs, mainly for programming staff have doubled while the number of users is steady or even declining. Even if the site had no fundraising revenues, it could easily cut staff and survive for years. Most people are donating because of the content, yet very little of the funds goes to content creators. And there's the issue of the fundraising banners taking up 50% of user's screens. Here's my line-by-line analysis of the fundraising banner, and here's another article on the The Daily Dot. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those who attack the person and not their arguments are not helping the matter, but criticism of Misplaced Pages is a key part of understanding and correcting flaws. Most of us are here to build and maintain the growing encyclopedia and the argument about the ads does deserve some discussion. I have found them more intrusive, but I still think they are a major improvement over donation ads appearing over every article. I'm sure Jimbo is aware of the "humor" that campaign enabled and the WMF moved on from that style. Could the current ads be excessive, yes, but trying new things is an important part of trying to improve. It is probably just not best to do so on this page, at this time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's typical that the very first reaction here to the Register's article is to demean its writer. The issue many people have with this fundraising campaign is that the ads clearly imply that Misplaced Pages's survival is at stake, when it is not. The ads are clearly deceptive, and may violate laws in some countries. According to this discussion, more than a few Misplaced Pages insiders think the ads are misleading also. Misplaced Pages's survival is not at stake. Costs, mainly for programming staff have doubled while the number of users is steady or even declining. Even if the site had no fundraising revenues, it could easily cut staff and survive for years. Most people are donating because of the content, yet very little of the funds goes to content creators. And there's the issue of the fundraising banners taking up 50% of user's screens. Here's my line-by-line analysis of the fundraising banner, and here's another article on the The Daily Dot. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Damage to the brand
This has gone viral, and the Misplaced Pages brand is taking a serious hit because the Wikimedia foundation has been completely tone deaf when members of the community it is supposed to be supporting have complained (see mailing lists). Do you have an opinion about this? --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Can you point me to a specific thread on a mailing list? Where has the Wikimedia Foundation been tone deaf in relation to this in particular? What should I be reading?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think he's talking about this one. -- Sparkzilla talk! 20:14, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Naw, that couldn't be what SB_Johnny is talking about. Check out , , , and all the other replies from the foundation. They are very clearly listening, encouraging critical debate, answering questions with lots of data to support their statements, and altering things based on the feedback. In short, they are very much on top of that thread and others I've read.
- Newsflash! No one likes raising funds with banners on the site. This just in: it costs money to do what the WMF was created to do. Stop the presses! No one has figured out how to fully fund the WMF without banners.
- People will undoubtedly swear up and down that I have a conflict of interest here, so, please, take my comments with an extra heaping helping of skepticism and look at the actual facts to come to your own conclusions. For a bunch of people who have dedicated so much time to writing an encyclopedia, it really blows my mind how much criticism is thrown around with absolutely no direct citations when there are so many sources available. SB_Johnny's comment is just one example. No one can be sure what he's even referring to! We can and should do better than this. -wʃʃʍ- 23:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, that's the thread. Sorry ,Wil but the two posts you linked to didn't address the thing people were worried about at all. Nobody was saying that the banners weren't bringing in donations, but rather that the tone and emphasis were deceptive. Deceptiveness isn't good for the brand. Get it now? (Also, please learn how to use the {{u}} template rather than dropping people's signatures in places they didn't actually sign). --SB_Johnny | ✌ 12:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the template tip. I'm still a little new here.
- Still no actual citations to what people have actually said, tho? Where are the posts in which people complain about tone and emphasis? You might be right, but how would I- or anyone else- know? -wʃʃʍ- 22:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Given his interest in the value of the brand, I hope Jimmy will just read the entire thread. It's worth a half hour of his time. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:33, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yep, that's the thread. Sorry ,Wil but the two posts you linked to didn't address the thing people were worried about at all. Nobody was saying that the banners weren't bringing in donations, but rather that the tone and emphasis were deceptive. Deceptiveness isn't good for the brand. Get it now? (Also, please learn how to use the {{u}} template rather than dropping people's signatures in places they didn't actually sign). --SB_Johnny | ✌ 12:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think he's talking about this one. -- Sparkzilla talk! 20:14, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Undisclosed Paid Advocacy (UPA) templates and Policy
Jimmy, I have two questions apropos User:Jimbo_Wales/Paid_Advocacy_FAQ. 1)What should happen to content that is the product of UPA (Undisclosed Paid Advocacy)? Perhaps, any UPA prior to the ToS should be grandfathered, like content on Commons prior to tightened rules on using appropriate license tags and the like. And any content created after the ToS banned UPA, that is the product of UPA, be removed through the use of templates like {{subst:Copyvio|url}}/{{Copyvio}}. 2)Are you aware of any significant efforts, since the Terms of Use were changed to bar UPA, to create a specific policy page that says that the product of UPAE, like the product of a copyright violation, should be removed? I don't think anyone's tried to create an equivalent of {{subst:Copyvio|url}} to tag UPA. I'm sure most of the folks who make money performing PAE and UPAE will continue to !vote against such moves, but perhaps Paid Advocates could be excluded from such voting. I thought it worth asking Jimbo, (and unavoidably, his talk page stalkers) and CTA.--Elvey 01:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anything to help deal with the scourge of paid advocates is worth considering. One problem with tagging UPA is that often it is somewhat ambiguous. (Often it isn't, of course.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Pinged for this discussion. I didn't even know there was a FAQ. As to your question, I don't know the answer. The attitude toward both disclosed and undisclosed paid contributions is extremely permissive, so I don't see the point of working up a sweat about it. Usually when a company dispatches employees or contractors to an article it is extremely obvious, and if dealt with firmly can usually be gotten rid of so that uninvolved editors can be left to edit without harassment. I actually addressed one aspect of the topic on my user page just the other day. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, Jimbo, having discovered the FAQ I've taken the liberty of adding a paragraph, so as to close a loophole that I've seen mentioned here and there. If it's not what you want, please advise and I will take it out. Coretheapple (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm generally in favor of anything that would tend to minimize paid advocacy editing, but I also really dislike all the tags that get left on article pages, sometimes for years after the problem has been addressed (I suggest putting most tags on the talk page). For the most part, the proposed tag would be doing the same thing as the advertising tags or the NPOV tag - so I'll say that there's no need for a new tag.
- That said, there is a need for editors to go clean up the advertisers' (and the paes') messes. Perhaps we could organize Wiki-project:PAE cleanup. There have been a couple of projects that say that they try to minimize PAE problems, but to my reading they've ended up giving paid editors advice on how to skirt the rules - not something I want. If folks are really interested in a real PAE cleanup project, please let me know. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'll second the tags comment. It seems like half of our articles boil down to:
- The content on this page is not to be trusted. So, without further ado. . .
- That's one scourge I'm working to address. -wʃʃʍ- 23:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- What is really needed is a check button under the edit summary with THIS IS A COI EDIT (linked to the policy page), right next to THIS IS A MINOR EDIT. If clicked, this would tag the summary as a COI edit so that the change could be reviewed by an unconnected editor. No need to deface the article for all time with a flag. Carrite (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would support that, as long as checking the box results in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty extreme take, isn't it? Carrite (talk) 07:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, I think it's relatively mild, actually. Once someone self-identifies as a paid advocacy editor, it is extremely unwise (giving rise to a completely justified perception of corruption) to let them continue editing article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm all for what you're suggesting, Jimbo. But at this point it is not policy. If you want to make it policy, perhaps through a strengthening of the Terms of Use by the WMF, it would certainly be a step forward. But right now you'll not get support from the community. I think that this is an issue in which the community needs to be led, not followed. Coretheapple (talk) 16:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Jimbo, as you're involved with Wikia, maybe you could make clear to the staff there that this is the case? A quick look at the history of Wikia will show a number of edits in September by Yogi Beara, who has self-identified on their user page as working on behalf of Wikia. --210.55.212.216 (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whoa, Jimmy. The checkbox proposed is for COI edits, not PAE edits ("THIS IS A COI EDIT"). I agree that if there were a PAE edit checkbox ("THIS IS PAE") and it was checked, use should result in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space. But that's not what was proposed! I think there's been a misunderstanding, and that modifying your comments above would be in order.
- No, I think it's relatively mild, actually. Once someone self-identifies as a paid advocacy editor, it is extremely unwise (giving rise to a completely justified perception of corruption) to let them continue editing article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a pretty extreme take, isn't it? Carrite (talk) 07:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would support that, as long as checking the box results in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Who thinks what is really needed is a check button under the edit summary with THIS IS PAID ADVOCACY EDIT (linked to the policy page), right next to THIS IS A MINOR EDIT?--Elvey 20:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Like HiDrNick! 15:44, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Make the check box for THIS IS A PAID EDIT and require it to be used in the case of paid edits. I'm 100% in favor of that. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think we all realize that not all COI edits are paid COI edits. They all need to be checkable, whether or not the writer has been paid. Carrite (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Make the check box for THIS IS A PAID EDIT and require it to be used in the case of paid edits. I'm 100% in favor of that. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Who should I ping to get a reading on the technical issues of including such a box, Philippe (WMF)? Probably not, but he should know who to contact. The technical issues, as I see them, would be
1. how to get a read out on your watchlist, perhaps with a bolded P or PE or Pde (I've got a personal preference here) next to the paid entry. Perhaps only paid entries on a special list where you don't need to specify the articles you're interested in.
2. How long would it take to get up and running? Less than the time needed to pass a new policy (since it would have to be a requirement to click the box for paid entries)?
- Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- This would be a horrible idea as it would send the false message that we condone COI (paid advocacy) editing. Such edits should be immediate grounds for banning.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, this is a perspective that is way, way, way, way more extreme than the standing consensus about such things. The new Terms Of Use by WMF have more or less codified paid editing. That ship has sailed. Carrite (talk) 07:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say that certain forms of paid editing, e.g. Wikipedians in Residence, are specifically allowed on En Misplaced Pages, others are regulated by the WMF under the ToS but not specifically mentioned under En Misplaced Pages rules. I'd agree that that ship has sailed, except that very few paid editors seem to follow the regulation - how many many paid editing declarations have you seen? (and how do you find these declarations? I think I've seen less than a half-dozen paid editing declarations, we may need something a bit stricter. Smallbones(smalltalk) 08:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Smallbones, don't fall for this fallacy of equating all paid editing with paid *advocacy* editing. We should welcome, for example, universities who encourage professors to edit Misplaced Pages on their subject matter expertise, even paying them bonuses to do so. That's not the issue that anyone is really concerned about and is 100% different from the moral corruption of paid advocacy editing. Carrite seems to think the ship has sailed on this issue, but he's mistaken. The WMF terms of service did not codify paid advocacy editing - it was a first step at banning it completely. The wind is blowing very strongly against it, and those who are engaging in paid advocacy editing of article space (as opposed to following the bright line rule approach) should understand that the mood of the community is very strongly against them and increasingly so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I wish the wind was blowing that way. When I checked recently, I found it was blowing in the other direction. I expect I'd be blocked if I tried to get that close reversed, though the puffy article was UPA entirely funded via elance, and I think the close sets a bad precedent that should be overturned. The answer to question I asked when I opened this discussion appear to be thus: Q1)What should happen to content that is the product of UPA (Undisclosed Paid Advocacy)? A1) It should be left in place. WT? --Elvey 21:24, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Smallbones, don't fall for this fallacy of equating all paid editing with paid *advocacy* editing. We should welcome, for example, universities who encourage professors to edit Misplaced Pages on their subject matter expertise, even paying them bonuses to do so. That's not the issue that anyone is really concerned about and is 100% different from the moral corruption of paid advocacy editing. Carrite seems to think the ship has sailed on this issue, but he's mistaken. The WMF terms of service did not codify paid advocacy editing - it was a first step at banning it completely. The wind is blowing very strongly against it, and those who are engaging in paid advocacy editing of article space (as opposed to following the bright line rule approach) should understand that the mood of the community is very strongly against them and increasingly so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say that certain forms of paid editing, e.g. Wikipedians in Residence, are specifically allowed on En Misplaced Pages, others are regulated by the WMF under the ToS but not specifically mentioned under En Misplaced Pages rules. I'd agree that that ship has sailed, except that very few paid editors seem to follow the regulation - how many many paid editing declarations have you seen? (and how do you find these declarations? I think I've seen less than a half-dozen paid editing declarations, we may need something a bit stricter. Smallbones(smalltalk) 08:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, this is a perspective that is way, way, way, way more extreme than the standing consensus about such things. The new Terms Of Use by WMF have more or less codified paid editing. That ship has sailed. Carrite (talk) 07:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you (Jimbo) must have misunderstood me. This would just be a required disclosure for paid editing similar to one of the 3 required now. Paid editors now have their choice of declaring on their user page, on the talk page, or in the edit summary. This would just be a small variation of the edit summary, except that it would be required so that we can find paid edits easily and thus more easily monitor it, rather than searching around in 3 different places. i.e. paid editors can effectively hide their paid edits now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree. I don't think we should take steps to normalize paid advocacy editing of article space whatsoever. We should require disclose (as we currently do) and require avoiding article space ENTIRELY for paid advocacy editors. There is simply no valid justification for doing that editing yourself, when you are being paid, as opposed to asking completely independent unpaid (i.e. uncorrupted) editors to take a look at your paid-for suggestions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- @user:Smallbones I think such a plan for post-edit reviews would be appropriate if most paid edits were good changes that only needed a quick re-assurance. In practice though, the majority of them are self-serving edits, asking to add awards, philanthropy, and other promotional material using primary sources. Also, the number of hours it would take WMF to develop new features would actually be more hours than the community spends each month reviewing Request Edits in pre-existing tools.
- I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree. I don't think we should take steps to normalize paid advocacy editing of article space whatsoever. We should require disclose (as we currently do) and require avoiding article space ENTIRELY for paid advocacy editors. There is simply no valid justification for doing that editing yourself, when you are being paid, as opposed to asking completely independent unpaid (i.e. uncorrupted) editors to take a look at your paid-for suggestions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you (Jimbo) must have misunderstood me. This would just be a required disclosure for paid editing similar to one of the 3 required now. Paid editors now have their choice of declaring on their user page, on the talk page, or in the edit summary. This would just be a small variation of the edit summary, except that it would be required so that we can find paid edits easily and thus more easily monitor it, rather than searching around in 3 different places. i.e. paid editors can effectively hide their paid edits now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the community is too focused on "transparency & review" as the solution to paid editing, whereas I give article-subjects advice based on an "abstain, unless, then" model, where abstaining is the de-facto. CorporateM (Talk) 04:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think that "transparency and review" is where we're at. Let's make sure it is as transparent as can be and as well reviewed as we are able. That has always been the key to solving this contentious issue. (I really like your "transparency and review" phrasing, by the way, that's right on the money...) Carrite (talk) 07:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- For those interested in an example of CorporateM's advice on "abstain, unless, then", here is a batch of content that has been waiting patiently for nearly two weeks for the "then" portion, i.e., "review and consideration by a disinterested editor to avoid any remote appearance of impropriety". Clearly CorporateM's version ("The merger was opposed by consumer advocates, such as the Consumer Federation of America, due to anti-trust concerns. The two companies combined would become the largest pet food brand by market-share with a 45 percent share of the cat food market.") is better than Misplaced Pages's current version ("Both corporations saw this major strategic transaction as the ideal way to benefit from their combined know-how, complementary strengths and international presence in the growing pet-care market."), but since Nestle presumably paid for the improved content, it's radioactive and few volunteer editors would dare introduce it to Misplaced Pages's article space. CorporateM undoubtedly got paid for the research and writing time, regardless of whether it gets pasted into article space or not. Prelude after noon (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- From what I've seen, transparency and review has failed us quite significantly. Whether a paid editor discloses and follows the Bright Line or acts covertly, the outcome tends to be the same edits, only now the edits have increased stickiness and the paid editor can claim immunity to accountability for their edits, being that they didn't actually make them themselves. It promotes gaming the system, canvassing, and creates more trouble than just deleting promotional material in article-space. WP:COI says editors with a COI are suppose to be "cautious" but the PR industry seems to now believe advocacy is acceptable so long as it's in Talk space. There are cases where BrightLine/transparency is useful, but it is difficult to say whether its net-effect is good or bad. In most cases the article-subject wants something different than Misplaced Pages and we do not want them to reach those goals that are counter to our mission, regardless of the process or level of transparency used to attain them. CorporateM (Talk) 18:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- CorporateM, why didn't you disclose your COI for your (mostly new) Purina article when you nominated it for GA status? () You did so for some of your nominations there, but please do so for othera where you have a CoI, including the Purina article. That's best practice, right? --Elvey 21:24, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- From what I've seen, transparency and review has failed us quite significantly. Whether a paid editor discloses and follows the Bright Line or acts covertly, the outcome tends to be the same edits, only now the edits have increased stickiness and the paid editor can claim immunity to accountability for their edits, being that they didn't actually make them themselves. It promotes gaming the system, canvassing, and creates more trouble than just deleting promotional material in article-space. WP:COI says editors with a COI are suppose to be "cautious" but the PR industry seems to now believe advocacy is acceptable so long as it's in Talk space. There are cases where BrightLine/transparency is useful, but it is difficult to say whether its net-effect is good or bad. In most cases the article-subject wants something different than Misplaced Pages and we do not want them to reach those goals that are counter to our mission, regardless of the process or level of transparency used to attain them. CorporateM (Talk) 18:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- For those interested in an example of CorporateM's advice on "abstain, unless, then", here is a batch of content that has been waiting patiently for nearly two weeks for the "then" portion, i.e., "review and consideration by a disinterested editor to avoid any remote appearance of impropriety". Clearly CorporateM's version ("The merger was opposed by consumer advocates, such as the Consumer Federation of America, due to anti-trust concerns. The two companies combined would become the largest pet food brand by market-share with a 45 percent share of the cat food market.") is better than Misplaced Pages's current version ("Both corporations saw this major strategic transaction as the ideal way to benefit from their combined know-how, complementary strengths and international presence in the growing pet-care market."), but since Nestle presumably paid for the improved content, it's radioactive and few volunteer editors would dare introduce it to Misplaced Pages's article space. CorporateM undoubtedly got paid for the research and writing time, regardless of whether it gets pasted into article space or not. Prelude after noon (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I just had an idea that I have not thought through in any great detail. We have the capability (not used much here but wildly popular in other languages) to put articles into "flagged revisions" state, see Misplaced Pages:Pending changes. It would require some (relatively simple, probably) changes to MediaWiki to put editors into that state, or even for individual editors to tick a box to request review by an independent editor before that change goes live. I can imagine a lot of use cases for this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea to minimize bureaucracy. Requesting a change on the talk page is pretty much a waste of time because it's often overlooked. If the proposed change were turned into a pending change, that would be useful. Next time somebody reliable edited the article, the change would be reviewed and adopted or rejected. Presumably if an account were discovered doing paid advocacy, it could be set to this state by an administrator, or an ethical PR agency could create accounts in this state. Somebody doing an occasional paid edit could flag particular edits without flagging their account. Jehochman 14:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that this "flagged editors" thing is a good idea. Also I understand Jimbo's concerns about re Carrite's/Smallobne's suggestion. However, what Carrite is simply doing is recognizing that COI editing is permitted. I agree that identifying paid
editorsedits (Smallbones' idea) in the same fashion would be counterproductive. Coretheapple (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)- Such a feature would also be useful for new editors that are unsure of their edits and can use pending changes to attract coaching from more experienced editors. Regarding the feature for paid edits, it would be important that the reviewer has a button they can press to push it to the Talk page, since many COI contributions shouldn't be accepted as-is, but do flag important issues (errors, attack pages, etc.) that are important enough such that a disinterested editor should correct them. CorporateM (Talk) 14:34, 7 December 2014 (UTC) (paid editor)
- This discussion has been more productive than usual, with some good ideas kicked around, and I hope Jimbo that you raise them at the WMF level. I see that the Foundation seems to be taking an activist stance toward enforcing its TOU, and that's all for the good. Coretheapple (talk) 16:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC) And the way this discussion has degenerated into the usual catfight demonstrates that leadership, not consensus, is what's needed. Coretheapple (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- This could be applied to this funding via elance, which I referred to above.--Elvey 20:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- What could be applied and what is elance? You can respond on my talk page if you wish. You've lost me. Coretheapple (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
"Requesting a change on the talk page is pretty much a waste of time because it's often overlooked." In other words,doing the right thing is a waste of time because it sometimes does not work. I couldn't disagree more with what Jehochman said. It's troubling to hear that kind of talk from an admin. I see no evidence that doing the right thing rarely "works". Doing the right thing would not be a waste of time even if it did not work 50% of the time. --Elvey 20:30, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Elvey, facts are friends, whether they are good or bad. Our current process doesn't work well. When a conflicted editor uses a talk page to request edits, the response is usually somewhere between none and very, very slow. If we want people to use the process, we need to deliver results, not happy talk. Jehochman 22:26, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- In my experience, nonresponse in such situations is due to unpaid editors not wanting to carry out the suggested edits, or not considering it to be a high enough priority compared to other things that need to be done in that article. I know of one specific situation in which a "company editor" turned a blind eye to a significant error in an article - an error that made his employer look good - while filling the talk page with minor, piddling requests that consumed the time of editors. Coretheapple (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Meanwhile...in the real world NinaSpezz (talk · contribs) writes "I work for Rubenstein Communications and I'd like to make the following addition just after the first sentence in Nickerson's "Professional career and government service" section on behalf of Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel. To mitigate conflict of interest issues, I ask that an editor review the edits and take them live, as they see fit. If there are no objections, I will go ahead and update the entry myself." How I came across her? (I like show tunes - get over it.) But this is this kind of legal editing that is going on everywhere. Either the WMF takes a stand or all of those 'quiet' articles will be PR'd to death while the hundreds of new WMF staff are brainstorming new apps the community doesn't need. AnonNep (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I like Carrite (talk)'s idea; he has a knack for simple solutions that pack big Pareto_principle punches. Jimbo et al, I understand your concerns with regards to paid editing, but it seems to me that in practice we would serve our readers best by identifying as many COI edits as possible. If editors are in effect penalized for declaring potential COI edits, they simply won't do it.
- My first edits to Misplaced Pages are a great case in point. When I was in charge of Zend_framework (and getting paid for it), I updated some out-of-date information on the article after asking if it would be OK on the talk page and getting no response. I would have checked such a COI edit box in a heartbeat, because I wanted my edits to bear the same weight as any good faith edit on Misplaced Pages. Not only are we missing opportunities to verify potential COI edits right now, but we're flying blind in deciding what to do about them as the COI and PAE editors fly below the radar. In the end, we all know they aren't going anywhere no matter what policy is established or how it is enforced. Let's at least find out more about them. Ultimately, I think we should welcome all good faith efforts that improve our articles no matter who makes them, because- as is so often repeated- we're doing all this for our readers, and, from where I sit, that policy is clearly what would serve them best. -wʃʃʍ- 23:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to address one of your points, there is a "soft bigotry of low expectations" concerning paid editors, that they are inherently "outlaws" who "aren't going anywhere" even if banned from a site. In my experience (and I briefly wrote about it here), if told to take a hike, they will. Whether they should be, or tolerated, or whatever, is a separate issue, but let's dispense with that canard please. Coretheapple (talk) 00:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hmmm. That is just one example. Here's another: Wikibiz. Greg has said he maintains a farm of socks and that he has no intention of abiding by the new Terms and Conditions. But these are just two examples. Where is the data to support your generalization? Your essay extrapolates to an extreme. Then again, where is my data? Doh! :) -wʃʃʍ- 05:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- So your position is that this person, who is has a vendetta against Jimbo and is engaged in a public campaign against Misplaced Pages, might be equally representative of the kind of people coming on Misplaced Pages as paid advocates? I certainly don't feel that way. I think he's very much an outlier. I have no doubt whatsoever that most professional p.r. people would agree with me that sock farms and other unethical tactics, aimed at forcing oneself into a website against its will, are completely reprehensible and wrong.
- To answer your question: no I don't have any "data" to support my view that paid advocates are decent and ethical people trying to make a buck, and not crackpots with a vendetta against Misplaced Pages who will stop at nothing to get their way. But I think it's far more reasonable to assume the former rather than the latter in formulating an approach to paid advocacy. Coretheapple (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you miss my point somewhat. Sure, Greg has a grudge against Jimmy that is almost pathological in size and tenacity; (Redacted); and he has a predilection for bigotry in his commentary on all things Misplaced Pages that many of us find very disturbing to boot. I agree- I pray, even- that he is an outlier. But what I'm getting at is the fact that neither of us can say so with any confidence because we lack the data to back either of our assertions up. If we brought PAE and COI editing more in to the open, we could start collecting data that would help us discuss and figure such things out. And if those data show that PAE should be aggressively stamped out because it is being abused to the point of compromising the integrity of the encyclopedia, the terms of use can be adjusted accordingly. After all, if someone is trying to make a buck off Misplaced Pages by damaging it in any way, s/he can't expect us to protect their business interests. The right decision always starts with data, and having editors self-flag potential COI edits is a great start, IMO. -wʃʃʍ- 22:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I completely comprehend what "collecting data" means (and always does when action is needed): the status quo. Coretheapple (talk) 23:03, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you miss my point somewhat. Sure, Greg has a grudge against Jimmy that is almost pathological in size and tenacity; (Redacted); and he has a predilection for bigotry in his commentary on all things Misplaced Pages that many of us find very disturbing to boot. I agree- I pray, even- that he is an outlier. But what I'm getting at is the fact that neither of us can say so with any confidence because we lack the data to back either of our assertions up. If we brought PAE and COI editing more in to the open, we could start collecting data that would help us discuss and figure such things out. And if those data show that PAE should be aggressively stamped out because it is being abused to the point of compromising the integrity of the encyclopedia, the terms of use can be adjusted accordingly. After all, if someone is trying to make a buck off Misplaced Pages by damaging it in any way, s/he can't expect us to protect their business interests. The right decision always starts with data, and having editors self-flag potential COI edits is a great start, IMO. -wʃʃʍ- 22:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hmmm. That is just one example. Here's another: Wikibiz. Greg has said he maintains a farm of socks and that he has no intention of abiding by the new Terms and Conditions. But these are just two examples. Where is the data to support your generalization? Your essay extrapolates to an extreme. Then again, where is my data? Doh! :) -wʃʃʍ- 05:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just to address one of your points, there is a "soft bigotry of low expectations" concerning paid editors, that they are inherently "outlaws" who "aren't going anywhere" even if banned from a site. In my experience (and I briefly wrote about it here), if told to take a hike, they will. Whether they should be, or tolerated, or whatever, is a separate issue, but let's dispense with that canard please. Coretheapple (talk) 00:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- All of these proposals, feasible or otherwise, stand on thin and even nonexistent policy. The TOU says the following:
As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.
That's it. Nothing about not editing articles. Requiring not editing article pages or an immediate ban for COI editors as proposed above by Jimbo are rehashes of the Bright line proposal, and related proposals in the template on that page, all of which snow failed last year. I don't think much about COI editing has changed in a year, and certainly not as much to warrant new policy discussions. KonveyorBelt 17:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with you that there is no reason at all to waste a lot of time on policy proposals that are not going to succeed. The TOU was formulated by the WMF, and similar initiatives will have to be taken at that level. Coretheapple (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I doubt the WMF would approve such proposals on a sweeping scale ie. "no COI article editing, disclosed or not" as it would go against their principles. To get agreement on such a big chage, you'd have to conclusively show through a study that A. All COI editing on articles is a detriment to the encyclopedia and B. The problem can be effectively solved through a big change to the TOU like that. I think even if A shows that a wide majority of COI edits are harmful, B will fail, largely due to a problem of not enough people to find and revert COI edits. What would end up happening with regards to B would largely be what the situation is today: Large popular articles get COI edits quickly reverted, while minor pages that few volunteers actually visit fester for years with bad content. Of course, this whole hypothesis is contingent on the fact that A is proven to be at least mostly true. Until someone actually does a study on it, we don't conclusively know, but I belive that it is far from true. KonveyorBelt 18:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's up to them, really. I suppose they could spend months or even years analyzing it to death, or could simply decide not to allow it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I doubt the WMF would approve such proposals on a sweeping scale ie. "no COI article editing, disclosed or not" as it would go against their principles. To get agreement on such a big chage, you'd have to conclusively show through a study that A. All COI editing on articles is a detriment to the encyclopedia and B. The problem can be effectively solved through a big change to the TOU like that. I think even if A shows that a wide majority of COI edits are harmful, B will fail, largely due to a problem of not enough people to find and revert COI edits. What would end up happening with regards to B would largely be what the situation is today: Large popular articles get COI edits quickly reverted, while minor pages that few volunteers actually visit fester for years with bad content. Of course, this whole hypothesis is contingent on the fact that A is proven to be at least mostly true. Until someone actually does a study on it, we don't conclusively know, but I belive that it is far from true. KonveyorBelt 18:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Congratulations
Congratulations on receiving the Knowledge Award and a cash prize of $1 million! Everymorning talk to me 01:43, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Oh wow! Yes well done @Jimbo Wales:! Very well deserved :)--5 albert square (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Congrats! =D - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nice Job! Hopefully it makes up for all the toxic users on your talk page ;) Winner 42 Talk to me! 02:38, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Bravo! - Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is cool. It may even have made it into Misplaced Pages, congratulations.—John Cline (talk) 05:14, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Very cool - congrats! ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 05:45, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you all. It's pretty amazing. It's actually split with Sir Tim Berners-Lee so not $1 million to me but still it's impressive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Congrats on this. Taking the emotion of the moment, I thought I'll suggest that perhaps you could institute some kind of an award (non-monetary) or recognition for editors from your desk or the Fondation's. Would motivate them too, similar to how we feel good when you get the award. Barnstars are wonderful - and great recognition. But a formal series of recognitions from your/Foundation's side could put some additional verve into our editor lot (or perhaps such a thing already exists and I am not aware of it; or maybe it's not a practical idea, but just had it in my mind for some time, so thought I'll suggest). Congrats again. Wifione 14:54, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- What a cordiality and friendly speech from someone who has been told "not to come back" (by Jimbo Wales himself), not long time ago! I admire your ability to forgive, User:Wifione. Btw, you don't work for Mr. Chaudhuri anymore? I mean, you don't manipulate those articles since it was exposed in your editor review and in other places ... --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 09:35, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Truly amazing to see you honored equally with the great TB-L. Congratulations. To which NGO(s) will you donate the loot? Coming as it does with the imprimatur of a repellant regime, infamous for human rights violations such as slave labor, repression of free speech, judicial discrimination against women, criminalization of rape victims and Muslim women who marry non-Muslims, and judicial penalties that include the execution of homosexuals, pot dealers, and apostates, will you be looking for organizations that combat these human rights abuses? Writegeist (talk) 07:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- As an Emirati, and a student at the American University of Sharjah, I am disappointed that Mr Wales did not take the opportunity to speak out against the abuses that Writegeist writes about and which is documented here on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. Mr Wales, you had an opportunity to speak out for the people in my country who have experienced true freedom elsewhere (I studied in the United States) and who suffer under a regime that does not value true human rights. The regime splurges billions of dollars on promoting a false image of life in the Emirates to a western audience; you had an opportunity Mr Wales to speak out for all Emiratis, and also those non-nationals who are forced into slave labour and have no rights. I am at risk by posting this very message. This is not how it should be Mr Wales. Instead, it appears you were bought for $500,000. You sold us out Mr Wales. 194.170.173.249 (talk) 12:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- IP249, thank you for your courageous post. As this talk page is heavily watchlisted and as, for the time being at least, the co-founder seems to be at a loss for words on this topic (though not on that of so-called "Cultural Marxism"), perhaps some of the watchers will chip in and name human rights organizations for the co-founder to consider as beneficiaries of a gesture of largesse that would be in keeping with his vociferous advocacy of "moral ambitiousness". Writegeist (talk) 19:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
All awards are political. And the more money they carry, the more political they are. What did/will the sheikh want in return? Misplaced Pages just hit the new low. 83.208.89.162 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
@Jimbo Wales: Had you been in your home town the day before you received your $500,000 payment in Dubai, you could have joined the Day of Anger protest outside the UAE embassy to add your voice to those raised against the UAE's egregious human rights violations.
And only yesterday the Emirates Centre for Human Rights tweeted: "The silence of the international community despite the deteriorating conditions of PoC's in the UAE is shameful. Action must be taken."
Do you think the UK office of the ECHR would be a good starting point for you?
My suggestion FWIW is Human Rights Watch. Their online donations page invites tax-deductible gifts to help HRW "investigate and expose human rights abuses, hold human rights abusers accountable for their crimes, and pressure governments, policy-makers, and the international community to take action against abuse"—precisely, I'm sure, the activities you'd want to support with your UAE payment.
For your—and your page watchers'—interest here is HRW's 2013 World Report on the UAE: . And here are their latest (2014) reports on specific UAE human rights abuses: , , , . I hope this helps. Or do you already have a particular beneficiary in mind? Writegeist (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I find this extremely worrying. (And now there's a comment, below, about a genealogy project, on which he " have a strong view"). I would agree about HRW, on whom this encyclopaedia relies extensively. zzz (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed it is worrying.
- Today is Human Rights Day. What perfect (and ironic) timing. The co-founder has $500,000 burning a hole in his conscience because he took it from a regime that's notorious for human rights abuse. What better day than Human Rights Day for the co-founder to give the tainted loot to Human Rights Watch, thus actually doing something worthwhile with the money, in a meaningful gesture of protest about human rights abuses by the UAE and other vile regimes worldwide—a truly grand gesture that would show some real "moral ambitiousness" and earn some real respect. What say you, Jimbo Wales? Or are you silent because you're waiting for advice from the PR people? Writegeist (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Common guys, I'm sure Mr. Wales has accepted the award with one purpose and one purpose only: He's going to donate all of it, to the very last penny to the WMF to be used for spreading a free knowledge, which I'm sure would help to improve human rights around the world. You're going to donate the money to the WMF, aren't you, Mr. Wales? Think about it. If you're to donate the money, you would kill two birds with one stone: First, you stop the critics who're saying that you dishonored yourself by accepting the award from an oppressive regime, and second your donation would help the WMF to stop begging for donations a few days earlier.59.78.160.247 (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I live in hope, but somehow, sadly I don't think that will happen. I hope I'm proved wrong though.--5 albert square (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Common guys, I'm sure Mr. Wales has accepted the award with one purpose and one purpose only: He's going to donate all of it, to the very last penny to the WMF to be used for spreading a free knowledge, which I'm sure would help to improve human rights around the world. You're going to donate the money to the WMF, aren't you, Mr. Wales? Think about it. If you're to donate the money, you would kill two birds with one stone: First, you stop the critics who're saying that you dishonored yourself by accepting the award from an oppressive regime, and second your donation would help the WMF to stop begging for donations a few days earlier.59.78.160.247 (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I rarely speak on posts like these, but I am severely disappointed that Jimmy accepted this award without and an immediate, strong, public condemnation of the human rights practices of the UAE. One million is little to pay to gain the publicity generated by being able to attract famous figures for an awards ceremony. The United Arab Emirates have at least 250,000 people working in conditions that amount to slavery. Not slavery thrown around in a Godwin manner, actual slavery. Jimbo: return the award, make a public renunciation of the human rights practices of the UAE, and distribute the money to a worthy charity or other cause. If you keep the money, you are directly benefitting from modern day slavery and from the deaths of many, many people. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Every penny of the money will be used to combat human rights abuses worldwide with a specific focus on the Middle East and with a specific focus on freedom of speech / access to knowledge issues. Of course.
The specifics of exactly what the best approach is to doing that are not clear to me yet - I had no advance warning of this prize and so did not have any kind of plan in place. While of course I love the Wikimedia Foundation and continue to donate a huge chunk of my time and energy supporting the work of the Foundation, it is not an organization specifically focussed on human rights issues nor specifically focussed on the Middle East, and so I think wouldn't have nearly the impact that I can have in other ways.
The first thing that I did upon returning to London was hire a human rights lawyer full-time to work for me for the next month on these issues. That may turn into a longer term thing, or it may not. As I say, I'm only at the beginning of figuring out the optimal strategic approach.
I have always been extremely outspoken on these issues and will continue to do so. I am thankful for some of the suggestions given in this thread (and less thankful for the nasty false assumptions and snide attitude from some). In particular, I plan to contact and meet with "the UK office of Emirates Centre for Human Rights," an organization that I had never heard of before just now. I'll be happy to get leads on other interesting organizations as well.
Finally, I wanted to specifically call out Mr. Writegeist for obnoxiousness. "are you silent because you are waiting for advice from PR people?" That's a completely uninformed nasty remark that bears no resemblance to the facts, and indicates such a total lack of knowledge of me and my character that I think you should really regret making it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mr. Writegeist posted his first comment 2 days ago, and you responded to a number of other comments between then and now. You do have a history of (seemingly) waiting for the archive bot rather than responding to uncomfortable questions.
Next time, maybe just say something along the lines of "I hear you, I agree, but I need another day or two to think. Worth a try. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikimedia genealogy project
Just wondering if you have any thoughts re: the idea of WMF hosting a genealogy project. If so, feel free to contribute to this discussion. Thanks for your consideration, ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a strong view, other than a general view that the Wikimedia Foundation should and (under current plans) will focus efforts primarily on software and product for our existing projects. New projects are likely to be pretty much neglected and therefore perhaps not as successful as they could be under a different organizational framework.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your response. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages suggestions
Make all words in articles lead to new page related to the word, this can be done with programming when click on any word from article would lead to new articles but text would remain the same and standard wiki link to new article would override it or usual words or phrases.
In each edit in history make report vandalism or spam with short explanation.
Auto-sign when user begins with : but if edits inside between : an signature wouldn't sign it.
Shortcuts for edit summary for example m minor edit.
Wikibot that would automatically translate via Google Translate articles from English Misplaced Pages and save them to other Misplaced Pages's that could save more time in writing articles but only for new articles links and files would be copied by Wikibot and then replaced after translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xand2 (talk • contribs) 07:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
When signature is changed automatically change all signature of user (I have seen that in RPG Maker games you can type name of player and that name is displayed in whole game).
TTS Text to Speech like Ekho I have read that it is possible to record ones own voice only vowels and consonants it is about one MB large and can read any text.And other languages as well.
Also pop up translation for words from Wiktionary and how much times articles were visited. Input methods embedded in Wiki editor like Chinese.
Also when make next word in new row in Misplaced Pages is displayed in same row this can be a problem for writing many words one below other.
Ancient Egyptian Babel for language knowledge.
Perhaps some translator like Google Translate which is online or for Android there are not much free quality translators today except Google Translate.
When users edit is reverted or changed by different user would notify the user in special notifications, this would help if user has hundreds or thousands of edits so that he doesn't need to search all pages.Watch page is only for some pages it would be useful to have most although user can ignore it if he wants.
Wiki template that would make active count users edits and articles. Xand2 金日光旦照 (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Xand2: You can make this suggestion in the Village Pump. Lor 21:00, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks I have now posted it there. Xand2 金日光旦照 (talk) 21:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Pop up translation from Wiktionary when mouse over word would translate it to English or other languages.English Wiktionary has millions of words (most are inflections) and you can use free OpenSource Kiwix for offline Misplaced Pages and Wiktionary (but Wiktionary is downloaded separately try using Google) and that offline Wiktionary could be programmed with pop up window to display articles (you can also find pop up code on Google like C++). Xand2 金日光旦照 (talk) 08:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Shitlist
Hello @Jimbo Wales:
I don't know if you remember, but @HJ Mitchell: asked you about a shitlist 3 or 4 days ago, however you seem to have forgotten to reply.
It was regarding harassment regarding Gamergate controversy. As you can see some users are being harassed and attacked over this, I'm sure that hosting such a thing on a for-profit Wikifarm is not lost on the page creators. I'm not sure how you are involved in Wikia these days Jimbo, but if you meant what you said here about harassment being dealt with, any pressure you can apply on the relevant people to deal with that shitlist would be greatly appreciated.
I look forward to your response regarding helping us :)--5 albert square (talk) 16:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Mail Call
Just wanted to let you know I've dropped you a piece of highly important digital correspondence :) Dusti 18:17, 11 December 2014 (UTC)