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Revision as of 22:05, 14 December 2014 view sourceBrustopher (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers5,111 edits →To what extent can an article be reasonably be non reputable but still used as a source/Some reputable pro GG sources← Previous edit Revision as of 00:21, 15 December 2014 view source Brustopher (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers5,111 edits →Laurie Penny's "Uppity Cunts": Any rephrasing ideas?: new sectionNext edit →
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: As a separate task, it may well be time to remove or trim material that seemed to loom large at one time, but is no longer of much relevance. --] 05:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC) : As a separate task, it may well be time to remove or trim material that seemed to loom large at one time, but is no longer of much relevance. --] 05:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

== Laurie Penny's "Uppity Cunts": Any rephrasing ideas? ==

] is now the to have misread the quote from Penny as an actual attack on feminists instead of obvious sarcasm. Is there anyway we could phrase this better, so readers don't make the same mistake?] (]) 00:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

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Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on 6 September 2014. The result of the discussion was keep.

RFC: Can an article be too biased in favor of near-universal sourcing of one side of an issue? (Gamergate controversy)

See /RFC1

RFC closing statement: "There is a general feeling here that the article does have a slight bias, however, the point is also made that this seems to reflect the reliable sources available."

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Power OVERWHELMING

So this intro here...

the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture.

I don't see a source used for this statement. I would like to see actual evidence of "majority" being proven to have this stance. Who exactly has weighed the sum of commentators and then divided it into portions of those who think this and those who do not?

Is this based on a single source claiming that the majority of commentators say this?

What qualifies a person to be a commentator to be counted on this issue?

Beyond whether or not it is majority (a single 50.5% would give that) I would like to know when it is that we consider a majority to be 'overwhelming'.

Who has gone beyond diagnosis of a 'majority' claim and called such a hypothetical majority overwhelming?

For those who did, should it matter to Misplaced Pages that they feel overwhelmed? Isn't the rate at which people are whelmed by different percentages actually variable?

I think we should strike 'overwhelming' from the intro since it is too subjective a label. We should convey as accurate a number as possible (if 'majority' is the closest we can get, fine) and then let readers decide how big a number has to be to feel overwhelming. If some reporters have said 'overwhelming' then we can say 'which reporters have called overwhelming' or something along those lines. That is clearly just feels-opinioning and not relevant encyclopedic data-facts.

If we can get past the overwhelming nonsense then I would like to request a source for this 'majority of commentators' claim. Who has the authority to count such a tally? What if 1 source said the majority of commentators were for GamerGate? How would we decide who is correct? --Ranze (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You have given a minion +4/+4 and that minion will die at the end of the turn. Horribly.
Hearthstone jokes aside, "the overwhelming majority" is based upon even a cursory examination of the reliable sources which have commented on the matter. We base our articles on what reliable sources say, and we weight viewpoints based upon the weight given to those viewpoints in mainstream reliable sources. It is trivial to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of mainstream reliable sources commenting on the matter view Gamergate as such.
That said, the new version of the lede which I have proposed above removes the word "overwhelming" as an unnecessary adverb. The "majority" is incontrovertibly factual. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem there then is the statement is misleading, since it's based on reliable sources, and not all commentators. HalfHat 10:59, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
And on the reliable sources chosen for this article, not necessarily overall. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree. The use of the word commentators in no way specifies people who belong to the tiny group whom wikipedia classify as "reliable sources" (academics and journalists for the most part). On reddit alone there are enough pro-GG individuals to easily outnumber the few dozen journalists worldwide pushing the anti-GG line that their editorial staff have decided to take. If we count twitter, then pro-GG would outweigh the "reliable sources" by at least one, maybe two orders of magnitude.Bramble window (talk) 16:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE as an encyclopedia, we dont care what the rabble thinks, unless the reliable sources comment upon it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
By that logic, the word "commentators" needs to be replaced with "commentators outside the rabble". The word commentators as it is presently used by English speakers is non-exclusive of the rabble. If you mean to be rabble-exclusive, you cannot use "commentators" without a qualification to specify that you only mean a specific elite group.Bramble window (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Nope. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:49, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
That response is both rude and uninformative. The link you gave does not speak to a defence of using "commentators" with the meaning of "non-rabble commentators" that you propose. In future, please try to be civil and specify your reasoning using language rather than posting one-word links to pages whose relevance is far from apparent.Bramble window (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
The link i gave says that we dont even molly coddle it as "commentators" - we simply ASSERT what the reliable sources say. And it says nothing about the non reliable sources, because they dont play into creating an encyclopedia AT ALL. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:02, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
So we agree that "commentators" needs to go?Bramble window (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
as of the last time i looked at the draft, its gone. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Is this being written somewhere else? I still see it on the locked page here, it's ridiculous. "Reliable sources" would be far more accurate than "commentators". We should not mislead the public with fictions like this. Ranze (talk) 08:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure why you think an encyclopedia would need to call out that it wasnt being created from non reliable source materials? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Does WP:NOR not apply here? Feathergun (talk) 18:24, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean that it's "original research" to make an assessment of what mainstream reliable sources say and make that editorial judgment? Because no, that's not original research. It's what we do on Misplaced Pages — write articles based on the predominant weight of mainstream reliable sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
If there is a RS saying, "The overwhelming majority of media commentators have said that GamerGate is misognyistic" then that's in compliance with our policies. If it is us who are asserting this in WP's voice, then it violates WP:NOR. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, if the term 'overwhelming' is used by a reliable source then I want that RS cited directly after the word overwhelming, please. Otherwise, it should be removed. Ranze (talk) 08:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I think I'm the person who introduced the term into the lede. I did so because this is a good summary of the article body, which refers to a large number of commentators. If the exact wording is contentious, perhaps a phrase like "large majority", "huge majority " or even "vast majority" should be used instead. If quantifying the majority in this pragmatic way is problematic (I don't see why, but I'm open to such arguments) we can use the plain word "majority". --TS 18:58, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 December 2014

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From the section ‎Industry response remove the sentence Supporters of Gamergate that have been trying to police users that engage in harassment have also found Twitter's tools for reporting abuse to be insufficient. from the third paragraph, mirroring the same edit done on the draft article. This statement isn't supported by the inline citation given and the source that did support cannot be found any longer. See the above talk section "Twitter report tools" for the discussion about this. — Strongjam (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC) Strongjam (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I would like to note that we do have Draft:Gamergate controversy at the moment, which this talk page can be used to discuss changes that can be made to the draft. If you would like to do so, I would recommend a discussion to make your changes to the draft which will be merged eventually into the article. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Change was already made to the draft a week ago (see Special:Diff/636455819) and was discussed above. — Strongjam (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah, then if that is the case, then I would agree that this change should be made. Sorry for my assumption and for not reading enough, Strongjam. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
"Supports of GG have been trying to police harassers." is supported by this piece from Slate (The key to reducing the movement’s size lies in the little known but surprisingly numerous species I call the Gamergate moderate (Gamergater moderabilus), which by my estimate constitutes well over half the movement. They are the people who make up Gamergate’s Harassment Patrol, which polices Twitter and has identified and reported some egregious harassers.). I can't find where this group specifically has argued about Twitter's tools, though I am pretty confident one of Quinn, Sarkeesian, or Wu has made a statement to that degree. --MASEM (t) 18:37, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
No other reliable source takes the "harassment patrol" seriously, which suggests that it merits little if no mention. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
It is a reliable soruce, and it is not stating an opinion, but a fact (in so much that GGs are trying to patrol themselves), and coorrelates with sources facts that the ones actually doing the harassing being a vocal minority of the large group. So yes, it does warrant mention (half a sentence at most per UNDUE), as does not fall under the idea of a fringe opinion. --MASEM (t) 06:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
its only an opinion that they are trying to police, others suggest that there are members of the "patrol" that are coordinating harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
That's original research. Yes, there are some that use the GG hashtag to harass, but there are some that use the GG hashtag to stop harassment, both are facts. We rightfully present both factual aspects. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
You are presenting two profoundly-unequal things as equal, and they are not. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Dyson returns to Gawker

Dyson rejects Gamergate, returns advertising to Gawker, as per The Telegraph. Probably worth a brief add to the "Gawker Media and Operation Baby Seal" section to note that the furor has died down without a lasting impact. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:05, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

On Gawker, there's this piece claiming they lost 7-figure amount due to GG; I don't think the source is unreliable, but they are going off the reports of 2 people from an all-hands meeting there. --MASEM (t) 18:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

To what extent can an article be reasonably be non reputable but still used as a source/Some reputable pro GG sources

Reading RFC1, the conclusion is that the article is fairly neutral, but that there are a few easily fixed issues and we may "Have to use some less reliable sources, but all for the benefit of the article in the longer term."

As far as I can tell, most of the specific issues outline there that "are easily fixed" are still pretty present, such as wording of the momvment being misogynistic or the claims of harassment as factual (In fact, one of the section titles outright says "False allegations against Quinn and subsequent harassment", despite to my knowledge, some of the allegations of relationships, have been confirmed, and others have had various factual pieces of evidence in favor of them, but in any case, it is egregious for the title to call them false when it really comes down to it all we have is theories and statements by the people involved, which obviously cannot be considered factual). There a variety of other issues, but having read most of the page, that is easily the most common claimed fault of the article. I am not an accomplished wikipedia editor, so I don't plan on trying to fix those issues myself, but I hope that somebody who is can do so.

Secondly, how do we know what sources that would normally be avoided are acceptable to use in this circumstance, given the RFC1? I know of quite a few news sites, such as gamernosh, which give neutral or pro GG articles, but to my knowledge, edits using those sites as sources have been reverted due to not being reputable. Lastly, here are a few links, all from the escapist (which is considered reputable as far as I am aware) that give neutral or pro GG outlooks from game devolpers, which has it's own section here that is in need of some viewpoints other then those of Anti GG individuals: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/12306-Female-Game-Developers-Make-Statements-on-GamerGate.7 (page 7, developer 4) and http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12397-Brad-Wardell-GamerGate-Interview and http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12400-Daniel-Vavra-GamerGate-Interview and http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12384-Xbro-GamerGate-Interview Jabberwock xeno (talk) 04:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

As amply stated by dozens of mainstream reliable sources, the allegations of violations of journalism ethics standards by either Quinn or Grayson are factually false. Our article states such and will not state otherwise. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I do not see the evidence or proof of them being factually false mentioned anywhere in the article other then in the title itself, which obviously is unsourced. I should not need to point out why Quinn or the other parties saying it's not true doesn't qualify as factual proof, it's no more factual then the claims that the harassment they received were falsified: Even if it is reported on by a reputable source, it should still be worded as "Quinn denied..." or "Grayson denied...". If I am missing something, please point it out to me. What of the rest of what I ask?Jabberwock xeno (talk) 08:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
You don't appear to understand Misplaced Pages policies. Please see Misplaced Pages's five pillars. The fact that the reliable sources have said it is false is, for our purposes, all we need to say that it is false. Our articles are based upon reliable sources, and reliable sources have unanimously declared the allegations to be false. We do not further investigate what reliable sources say or demand that they provide "evidence or proof" — such is going down the road of original research and synthesis, which are things we don't do here.
If you wish to propose specific wording for addition to the article, feel free to write something up at Draft:Gamergate controversy and post it here on the talk page for discussion and consensus. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I would arrgue that if a "repubable" source claims that something factually did or did not happen without evidence, they should not be considered reptuable, but that's not my call to make. Regardless, this goes against my understanding of wikipedia policies, and while I admit that understanding is not that good, it also goes against the vast majority of what was stated in the RFC1 link, which has many, many more Misplaced Pages contributors more knowledgeable than I am. There are more of them then there are of you, and as such, I am more inclined to believe that. Nonetheless, I will read through the policy pages and other articles to attempt to get a better understanding of the them, but off the top of my head, I also know that there are many returnable sources that do NOT claim that the allegations are false, and correctly refer to them as allegations, not as slander or factual claims.
I am well aware that this is a highly contentious article, and as a person who values the truth, accuracy, and stuff being unbiased, I as such want to help it be a better article so people reading it can be well informed without being misinformed by bias in either direction. In any case, I will make an addendum here or a response if somebody else posts once I have more information, but I still would like responses regarding the other stuff I brought up. Jabberwock xeno (talk) 10:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing you're trying to get at, but should a source be considered reliable if it contains a major factual error, even if it comes from a reputable publication? Because I'm fairly certain (havent checked recently) that this article uses quite a few sources that claim that Gjoni was the one who made the sex for positive reviews allegations. Bosstopher (talk) 10:22, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to take the source to the WP:RSN if you feel that you have evidence that will indicate the source is not reliable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Why not discuss it here? To clarify, I'm not saying any publication that claims Gjoni made the sex for favours accusation, should have every article its ever written disregarded. Just that in this case they've proven themselves (through poor factchecking) to have released an unreliable article that should be cut out of the infinite list of sources this article is using. Bosstopher (talk) 22:17, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Er, no, they haven't. Given Gjoni's noted cheerleading in 4chan and participation in the spreading of the "sex for reviews" smears as per this source, it's not a particularly far leap to argue that Gjoni participated in making the allegations public and, hence, also made them himself. While it's true that Gjoni's original post didn't make such accusations, he didn't turn around and disclaim those accusations until much later. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
"The logs also allegedly include at least two appearances by Eron Gjoni, the author of the original blog post about Quinn." != participation in the spreading of the "sex for reviews" smears. The source doesnt argue what your saying it does. The Escapist article on the IRC doesnt even think Gjoni's presence to be something worth mentioning. Also here are the articles I found that made the false claims Bosstopher (talk) 23:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Several reliable sources state that Gjoni participated in making the accusations of using relationships to gain reviews. In particular, this Vice interview with Gjoni states that Gjoni wanted to steer the conversation away from misogyny and toward the aforementioned nepotism and corruption in gaming and games journalism. I don't think we can at all conclusively state that Gjoni never made such allegations. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Ok. First of all relationships != sexual relationships, whole different kettle of fish. That Gjoni's made the nepotism and "indie clique" accusations are indisputable. Secondly the Vice article you note was published the day after this article by Allegra Ringo, which is discussed in the article. Ringo notes that Gjoni never made the sexual favours allegations and clarified his blogpost to point out that they werent true. To argue that the Vice interview, says Gjoni made sex for reviews claims requires extreme mental gymnastics. Bosstopher (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Newsweek's data provided by Brandwatch contradicts both wikipedia and Newsweek's articles

Newsweek has the same anti-GG bias as the rest of the articles accepted as "reliable" by wikipedia. However both they (and wikipedia's editors) have missed a piece of quantitative data that punches massive hole in their basic narrative.

Reading the present and draft WP article, you see it's a long-winded way of saying "Gamergate is a group of misogynists who gathered together with the sole purpose of harassing women; they have a flimsy pretence that it's got something to do with journalistic ethics but the only motive that it's fair to ascribe to these people is misogyny and a desire to hurt women".

Now here's the relevant quote from the Newsweek article:

Using an algorithm that looks for positive and negative words, BrandWatch found most tweets were neutral in sentiment. "If our algorithm doesn't identify a tweet as positive or negative, it categorizes it as neutral," a Brandwatch representative told Newsweek. "Data scientists refer to these tweets as 'undetermined' because the algorithm did not classify the mention as either negative or positive."

The article () provides helpful bar charts to make it even more obvious: green means positive comment, red means negative, grey means neutral. There is a LOT of grey. Add the green and red together and it's not even close to the grey.

So here it is, the only quantitative analysis that exists in a reliable source, and it flatly contradicts the "Gamergaters = misogynists" narrative. A self-published source exists that has a similar conclusion. Side issue: There's an exception to the RS ban that states that an expert's self-published analysis may be used by wikipedia. I quote:

Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications.

Has it been established that Chris von Csefalvay lacks the necessary expertise and history of reliable third-party publications in the field of data analysis?

This means that the lede needs to be altered to reflect the fact (and it is a fact) that quantitative analysis shows that a large majority of Gamergate tweets lack detectable misogyny (and indeed any other type of negativity). We should maintain the reference to the fact that 100% of "reliably" sourced media narratives equate GG with misogyny, simply pair that with the fact that the analysis (definitely one by Brandwatch used by Newsweek, maybe the one by von Csefalvay if his data analysis expertise warrants his work's inclusion per WP policy) demonstrates this to be unsupported.Bramble window (talk) 12:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. http://www.newsweek.com/gamergate-about-media-ethics-or-harassing-women-harassment-data-show-279736
Erm, no. As per the source, Data scientists refer to these tweets as 'undetermined' because the algorithm did not classify the mention as either negative or positive. The fact that a computer algorithm couldn't determine positivity or negativity for 90 percent of a sampling of tweets does not in any way disprove the qualitative view that Gamergate is responsible for a long-running campaign of misogynistic harassment. Rather, it suggests that the algorithm isn't very good at what it does — returning "undetermined" for 90 percent of a sample is perhaps the textbook definition of unhelpful results.
Your statement that quantitative analysis shows that a large majority of Gamergate tweets lack detectable misogyny is not supported by the evidence — as per the source, the algorithm analyzed only whether tweets were "positive or negative," which cannot be said to prove or disprove whether a given tweet contained specific biases such as misogyny or racism. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
You make a decent case for re-phrasing "detectable". A more precise, accurate phrase would be "The data analysis did not detect misogyny or other forms of negativity in a very large majority of the Gamergate tweets". The core fact is the same: the article's current thesis equating Gamergate with a simple campaign of misogynists is belied by the data analysis commissioned and published by Newsweek. That is the fact.Bramble window (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It isn't though, is it? Even supposing that 90% were actually neutral (rather than that the algorithm was not sensitive enough to decide), that doesn't tell you anything about the attitudes of those tweeting. (For an analogy, consider an analysis of British wartime communications about Nazi generals: most will be neutral (informative, for strategic purposes etc.); a few might express admiration; a few might condemn their actions.) If Newsweek had made such an obviously false argument, it might be a problem for us, fortunately they didn't. So let's not make it for them. N p holmes (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Was the above post intended as comedy? I will observe that people have made up their minds about Nazi generals because they have many more sources to draw upon than British wartime communications. I hope neither you or I get in trouble for daring to allude to WW2. Apart from their tweets, posts and other internet contributions, what sources exist to indicate the attitude of gamergaters as a group towards women, and specifically to justify the article's labelling them as woman-haters? The answer, as far as I am able to make out, is "as close to zero as makes no difference". Tweets are virtually all we know about Gamergaters. Apart from tweets, the amount of data is small. And the evidence for high incidence of misogyny in those tweets? Not there. Bramble window (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I have no opinion on whether or not to include the source in the article; in limiting my involvement to strictly user conduct issues. I will say, though, that the source is interesting, and would meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines if whoever includes it is very, very careful to make only the claims explicitly presented in the article and avoid WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. The Wordsmith 13:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
the source is already in use in the article. (control F and search for Newsweek) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The article's reference to Brandwatch's work fails to mention the most significant aspect of Brandwatch's work: the fact that the analysis does not detect negativity in the overwhelming majority of the tweets. Because I assume good faith, I take this to be a simple error and not deliberate deception. Bramble window (talk) 18:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
We go by the sources interpretation of the data, not your personal interpretation of the data. The source's interpretation as reflected in their headline is " gamergate: journalistic ethics or harassment? harassment." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:17, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Not quite. Newsweek, in part of its article, chooses to ignore the neutral tweets and simply compares the positive non-neutral tweets with the negative non-neutral tweets. Which it is perfectly entitled to do. But it also clearly states the silver bullet data: the overwhelming majority of tweets are neither positive nor negative. It basically ignores that fact in its discussion of the matter, as it is perfectly entitled to do. We wikipedia editors are under no obligation to ignore that data. I propose we include it. The specific, reliably sourced fact that the vast majority of gamergate-related tweets are neutral. Bramble window (talk) 18:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
What the reliable sources choose to ignore, we ignore. see WP:OR / WP:V. You can make your own blog and rant about mainstream media conspiracies, but you may not do that here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:34, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
What conspiracy are you referring to? I didn't mention any conspiracy.
Did you miss the point on the "original research" policy page headed "Routine calculations"? Let me quote: "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources." Even if it's decided that "Routine calculations" doesn't apply, the fact is that the data is "out there" in a Newsweek article. We are obviously not bound by Newsweek's editorial slant on that data. "Comment is free, but facts are sacred." Bramble window (talk) 18:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
We are absolutely bound by what reliable sources say. We cannot conduct our own independent analysis of data, as such is original research. As a tertiary-source encyclopedia, what we publish is, by foundational policy, based on what is published in reliable sources. Newsweek's analysis here is controlling. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
What analysis? Newsweek does not analyse the data marked as "neutral" in any form. It mentions it, but makes no comment on its implications. It analyses the minority data, the ones that are detected to be non-neutral. "Mention" and "analyse" are not synonyms. Bramble window (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
" mentions it, but makes no comment" EXACTLY - why would we focus on what the source has determined is not worthy of discussion? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The source of the data is Brandwatch. They thought it was worthy of mention, because they mentioned it. It was reported in a reliable source which brings it onto wikipedia. (I personally assume its inclusion in the Newsweek article may be accidental, as it contradicts the article's central thesis, but what can you do?) Bramble window (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
No, it doesn't contradict the central thesis. This is the mistake you're making — null data can't prove or disprove a hypothesis, and "undetermined" is precisely that: null data. If an algorithm can't determine whether something is positive or negative, that does not constitute proof that the content of the tweet is not positive or negative. It simply means the algorithm can't decide which it is. As the article states, Data scientists refer to these tweets as 'undetermined' because the algorithm did not classify the mention as either negative or positive. You can't use an algorithm's shortcomings as proof of anything. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Nice research. Very original! I like it. Bramble window (talk) 19:41, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
At this point, I must conclude that you're willfully failing to understand the article, because the above is not "original research," it's an explanation of exactly what the data scientists at Brandwatch said. I gather you haven't taken any graduate-level statistics and data analysis courses, which would explain your lack of understanding of what data is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
As an editor, I want to know how you reconcile the following facts that are known to you:
The majority of tweets by Gamergaters are neutral in content according to the only reliable source that has claimed to have commissioned a study of the source data.
The article at present paints Gamergaters as, on the whole, non-neutral misogynists. This is presented as fact, not opinion, in Misplaced Pages's voice. Bramble window (talk) 19:35, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
No. As has been pointed out numerous times, your use of "neutral" is incorrect in this context. Think of it as "noise" or "stuff we can't include in analysis because our algorithm doesn't work on it". This isn't even original research, either, because it says it right in the article. You are using it to mean "not positive or negative, but in between". It doesn't mean that. Woodroar (talk) 20:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Seriously, why do you think your original research gets to go in the article when that of others does not? If you can find a reliable source backing your claim that this specific instance of usage of "neutral" by Brandwatch about Gamergate means what you claim it does, post it and we'll look it over. Until then, we need to use dictionaries to define words. Remember, the thrust of the article at present is that Gamergate exists solely for the promulgation of anti-woman hate speech by woman haters. It is absolutely devastating to that thesis that it is on the public record that hate speech was not detected in the vast majority of gamergate messages. Meaning, the article as it stands is known to be massively untruthful, and verifiably so. People love to repeat that Misplaced Pages doesn't care about truth. But an entire article that is verifiably false is also contrary to policy. In a big way. Bramble window (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Seriously, can you read the source? ""If our algorithm doesn't identify a tweet as positive or negative, it categorizes it as neutral," -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The original research you are trying to insert into wikipedia is as follows "Brandwatch's algorithm is faulty and is not able to detect misogynistic hate speech in a tweet, and therefore erroneously classes misogynistic hate speech as "neutral"". Quite apart from being unacceptable owing to being original, it's unacceptable due to being entirely baseless. Bramble window (talk) 20:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
when the reliable sources stumble upon your brilliant analysis and publish it, then we will begin to reshape our article accordingly. Until then, please stop WP:FORUMing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm not foruming, I'm trying to protect the article from your original, misconceived research. There is a difference. Bramble window (talk) 21:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
presenting what the sources present is absolutely the OPPOSITE of original research. Inserting your interpretation of the source data counter to what the professionals have determined IS posterchild WP:OR. Now stop your ranting. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:05, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The objections to this new amendment are all based on a highly dubious set of assumptions. Bad assumption one: Brandwatch are so incompetent that their algorithm can't catch misogynist tweets most of the time (I'll grant you that it's hard to write any algorithm to study natural language that gets it right more than 99% of the time. It would be normal for an algorithm to accidentally mislabel a non-hateful tweet as hateful 1-3% of the time, and vice versa). Bad assumption two: you can take the first bad assumption, without waiting to see it confirmed in a reliable source which delves line-by-line into the source code of Brandwatch's algorithm, applying it to the GG tweets and proving that demonstrably misogynistic tweets are mislabeled as neutral in a high percentage of cases (certainly no fewer than 35% of the time, given the overwhelming dominance of neutral tweets that we all know of), and just throw it into wikipedia. Wrong. Brandwatch went public saying "our algorithm labelled the vast majority of tweets as neutral". That's all. You want to say Brandwatch's algorithm has a significant amount of false negatives (misogynistic tweets of the type that the article says Gamergate literally exists to create wrongly labelled as "neutral")? Get a reliable source to say so first.. Until then, Brandwatch says what Brandwatch says. Those tweets are labelled neutral. And the entire article is based on the assumption that those tweets are (at least mostly) non-neutral hate speech. Bramble window (talk) 20:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Until you have a reliable source that interprets the data as you do, it will not get into the article and certainly will not get us to dramatically change the entire article. Continued ranting without reliable sources will lead you to be topic banned. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
To repeat, Data scientists refer to these tweets as 'undetermined' because the algorithm did not classify the mention as either negative or positive. A tweet that the algorithm has not classified as "positive" or "negative" is simply that — undetermined. The algorithm is not able to classify it. One cannot draw any conclusions about the content of a tweet that the algorithm can't classify. It is null data. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:01, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The essence of your repetitive claim is "Your honor, the video evidence simply shows a man who looks a lot like my client killing that prostitute." We all know that there can be a disjunct between appearances and reality. But you're trying to omit mention of the appearances, appearances that are not flattering to the anti-GG campaign, by postulating a disjunct that is not reliably sourced. Bramble window (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
the essence of my argument is we dont make interpretations or analysis that is not specifically made in the source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The only thing you're demonstrating here is your lack of understanding of scientific research methodology, qualitative and quantitative content analysis and the limitations of a given set of data. The article, on the other hand, properly explains it and doesn't attempt to draw conclusions from the "undetermined" data. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

How can an 'un-organised leaderless' movement distance itself from anything that isn't the core values?

This is WP:NOTFORUM -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

"The unorganized, leaderless movement has hitherto been unwilling or unable to distance itself from continued harassment." This line struck me as odd. The first line of that paragraph states that many involved "are concerned with ethics in video game journalism", and if the main aspect of the movement is the ethics concerns, how can that group be judged to have "failed to distance itself" from anything other than the viewpoint re ethics?

How fair is it that a group, apparently leaderless and disorganised and comprised of multitudes of people but are (according to the first paragraph) united in a viewpoint regarding ethics as their main concern, being judged on something that isn't part of their 'core' value ie ethics?

Should the harassment coming as a result of the controversy be handled in a separate manner from ethical 'movement' that originated it? Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

If they did somehow "distance themselves" from it (what does that mean?) would it be reasonable to expect the "distancing" to be faithfully reported by the "reliable" folks?
It's an established fact that all of the "reliable" sources who have taken it upon themselves to publish on the topic have flat-out stated that Gamergate = misogyny. It follows that for the "reliable" sources to subsequently print a story titled "Gamergate distances self from misogyny" would inherently make the supposedly "reliable" sources look stupid. Call me a cynic, but I've tended to note that human beings generally avoid making themselves look like gullible idiots when they can. Bramble window (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Don't forget that the sources that are the most virulently anti-GG are the same publications that GG is criticizing, so there's a conflict of interest there. Regarding Mack's comment, it does indeed seem illogical for a "movement" with no leadership or structure to be able to distance itself or even take an official stance on anything. The same thing is what destroyed Anonymous (group) and Occupy Wall Street. The Wordsmith 14:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Time to recast the article subject as a moral panic.

Without significant sources identifying as a "moral panic" suggestions that we frame our article as such are non -starters. Newsweek/Brandwatch discussion is duplicative of ongoing discussion above. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

It fits the description very well. https://en.wikipedia.org/Moral_panic

Editors are making much of the fact that this particular witch-hunt is rhetorically backed 100% by the "reliable sources". But if newspapers and academic journals had existed during medieval witch-hunts, it's probable that 100% of them would have parroted the mainstream line that these witches were using their supernatural powers to wreak all kinds of magical mischief, and that the burnings and ducking-stools were absolutely necessary. The voices protesting that these women were innocent victims of superstition would have been relegated to the medieval equivalents of blogs and youtube videos. Nevertheless facts are facts: the women were innocent. The reliable sources of the day (church records, court documents) were erroneous.Bramble window (talk) 14:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

If newspapers and academic journals existed to any degree of similarity to current newspapers and journals (i.e. objectively based outside of superstitious theology, and not simply a tabloid) then I very much doubt that they would have followed the path you describe, given that (typically) very few people did actually take part in such cases. In any case I point at conspiracy theory, fringe theory, furtive fallacy and stigmergy, and also - this is a not a forum. Koncorde (talk) 14:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
What we call "superstitious theology" today was conventional wisdom and entirely mainstream back then. Merely questioning the conventional wisdom was cause for execution by burning. There's a great short story inspired by real events on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Theologians . We probably disagree on whether Gamergate is a conspiracy of misgynists, but I bet we can agree that that story is an excellent bit of fiction. Bramble window (talk) 14:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Moral_panic
  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Theologians
The thing is, assuming you are correct. This isn't workable, Misplaced Pages isn't it's own analysis based off original thoughts and ideas. It simply explains the facts from reliable sources and presents major points of views neutrally. HalfHat 14:55, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Do you have any reliable sources that support such an interpretation? Without a significant number, this is merely a WP:FORUM and inappropriate use of the page. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Of course I do. Brandwatch's study commissioned by Newsweek. I thought that was clear. Those data single-handedly dismantle the claim that gamergate is synonymous with misogynist attacks. To support that claim you'd need a majority of the tweets to be detected as negative (and arguably negative in a gender-specific way to satisfy the criterion). It's not even close. The only data analysis of the facts in the canon of reliable sources is wildly inconsistent with the oft-repeated myth that Gamergate is inherently demonstrably misogynist. Bramble window (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Not clear at all. This section had nothing to do with Newsweek or Brandwatch until you mentioned it. Unless you intended it as a continuation of the section above? If so, you should probably combine the sections.
Also, I'm not sure how else to say this without being absolutely blunt, so I will be: your interpretation of the data means nothing. If Newsweek wants to interpret "10% = misogynistic" or ".01% = misogynistic" or "there was a Tweet referencing 9/11 so all Gamergaters are Truthers", that's their choice. We presume that Newsweek is a reliable source because their editorial process includes fact-checking of some kind, but the misogynist/not-misogynist threshold is theirs alone to set. Sure, one could argue that it's an unfair threshold, but per WP:NOTFORUM they should argue elsewhere about it. Woodroar (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
The word Newsweek used was "neutral". So unless you think Newsweek has redefined "neutral" to mean "misogynistic" (if you do, you'll need a citation, I fancy), then the record shows that the only study done in the reliable sources shows that Gamergate tweets are overwhelmingly neutral. Bramble window (talk) 16:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Again, if Newsweek wants to say that Gamergate is misogynistic based on a single Tweet out of millions, then they can do that. It doesn't matter if you feel that's an unfair threshold or a poor interpretation of the data. The article even clarifies—as have others—that "neutral" has a specific meaning in data science, and that meaning is not the one you are using. Woodroar (talk) 17:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
You appear to conflate Newsweek with Brandwatch. Brandwatch "is a social media monitoring company headquartered in Brighton, England." Their analysis is reliably sourced. And it directly contradicts the WP article. Bramble window (talk) 17:35, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Not at all. Brandwatch gathered and analyzed data for Newsweek, which is the reliable source we use. We would never "analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate" that data ourselves, because words like "neutral"—as well as "trick" and "hide"—mean different things to data scientists. It is precisely because of this that we rely on reliable sources, not our own interpretation based on dictionary definitions. Woodroar (talk) 17:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
As opposed to the dozens of sources that cast Gamergate as centered on misogyny and harassment? Editors do not get to cherry-pick a single source that is to their liking and ignore the rest that contradict it. This "recast" suggestion of yours is a dead-end. Tarc (talk) 17:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

SunNews interview with Jennie Bharaj

conducted 11 December 2014

Bharaj is credited as a gamer and YouTuber. I am wondering whether this interview would qualify as a reference usable to build this article or source any data (existing or to-be-added) within it.

She states that a lot of media is trying to create a smear campaign on the Gamergate movement, and that it isn't about women-hating (or misogyny) instead that it is about ethics in journalism, games' journalism specifically.

This appears to be a point against this '(overwhelming) majority of commentators' statement we have circulating here. Or does Bharaj not qualify as a commentator? I would like to get an official tally going here on Misplaced Pages for us to actually calculate a specific majority for our considerations. Ranze (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

not really, the fact that they have to dredge up some random youtuber to make the point rather enhances that all of the reliable sources have a different interpretation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Would there be an ethical concern or conflict of interests if she only goes (and gets) on TV to promote her indiegogo project she's hoping to crowd source from Gamergaters? Bit of a weird piece. Koncorde (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a usable source for sourcing Jennie Bharaj's opinions about Gamergate, if we deem it relevant to the article to include her opinions. It doesn't do anything to tip the balance of the "overwhelming majority of commentators." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't play videogames (with the notable exception of Pokemon) and don't know who this person is. However, I've seen her name being tossed around quite a bit in my research on this issue (I think HuffPo did an interview with her), so it might be worth including a quote or paraphrase from her if those who know more in this field think she's a valid critic. The interview itself contains no unsupported claims or BLP violations, so it would appear to be valid for sourcing the opinion of Bharaj. The Wordsmith 21:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
like the part where she says that "gamers want objective reviews, like... is the storyline good." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:35, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this interview is a rather amusing demonstration of the total incoherence of Gamergate. Because whether a storyline is "good" or not can now be determined as a matter of objective fact! Learn something every day. But hey, if that's the illustration of Gamergate's logic that Gamergate supporters want included... who am I to stand in their way. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
There is no particular reason why her opinions on the controversy would be considered more important than anyone else's (she's not a notable commentator or anything), so including them would be giving her personal views undue weight; in general, interviews with random people from YouTube are not useful for building articles. If she was eg. the subject of the article, a well-known social commentator on something related to the topic, or something along those lines it might be worth mentioning her views; but as it is, the article has far too many quotes already from people throwing in the opinions of random people they happen to agree with. --Aquillion (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Making the article less quotefarm-y.

The one remaining dispute tag is the quotefarm one; and there's definitely some parts of the article that suffer from it. In general I think there's two issues (though they all come down to people using quotes to argue in the article by proxy rather than to illustrate views.) First, a lot of people are quoted at length whose opinions don't really matter; we don't need a full-paragraph quote from everyone who ever weighed in. It's particularly important to avoid the point-counterpoint situation where one person puts in a quote, someone else digs up a quote to rebut it, etc -- we should focus on quoting reputable commentators, primarily, and avoid making the quotes longer than is necessary to establish their views. And second, maybe more importantly, I think the quotes need to be surrounded by more prose to work them into the article -- explaining what view the quote is there to illustrate and so on. If we can't articulate why a quote is there, it should be removed. --Aquillion (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

This is a worthwhile task, though I currently can't help with it. Essentially every quote in the article should be examined to see whether it needs to be there. We can summarise now with greater clarity as to due weight than we did, say, three months ago, so there should be little problem in doing so.
As a separate task, it may well be time to remove or trim material that seemed to loom large at one time, but is no longer of much relevance. --TS 05:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Laurie Penny's "Uppity Cunts": Any rephrasing ideas?

User:Retartist is now the second editor to have misread the quote from Penny as an actual attack on feminists instead of obvious sarcasm. Is there anyway we could phrase this better, so readers don't make the same mistake?Bosstopher (talk) 00:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

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