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EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"C..." is never acceptable?

That's one of those absolute statements.

I'm Australian. An old part of the Australian idiom, rarer now, but still in existence, is for a man to greet an old male friend with "How are ya' ya' silly old cunt". It's a friendly expression, between two mates. It has nothing to do with women. I don't use the it myself. Just highlighting how impossible it is to ever create a list of words that are never acceptable.

Civility is an excellent goal, but lists of words aren't the issue. It's attitudes. I get in the way of POV pushers. They tend to come and annoy me on my Talk page. I first tell them to go away. They keep it up. I revert to stronger language. They report me for swearing. They get banned from my Talk page. Perfect strategy? I don't know. But it works. You see, it's the POV pushing that's really the uncivil behaviour in that story. The stronger language highlights it and tends to reduce it's occurrence. HiLo48 (talk) 20:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess I hear you, but I think that if the word can also be used in a friendly statement, then its use should be obviously playful in that context. If I said, "How are ya', ya' silly old cunt", you would likely realize immediately that I am not trying to insult you. On the other hand, if I said: "Stop reverting me you stupid cunt", you would realize that I used the word in anger in an attempt to insult you. Like I said at Civility and WER, according to WP:NPA: "some types of comments are never acceptable", such as "Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets". That's quite explicit, and "cunt" certainly qualifies as a gender specific epithet according to this guideline. Your point above can also be applied to the term, "nigger", but the word does not cease to be an epithet just because there are a few appropriate and/or joking ways to use it. I can understand that sometimes certain policies are not enforced, but if that's the case with Civility, I think we should reconsider including it as a pillar, because nothing breeds contempt for rules as much as those that are on the books but not enforced in practice. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:09, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, you and I actually agree on many things Rationaobserver, even if we have different ways to get our points across, and different ideas on how to achieve those goals. I hate that word, won't tolerate it as a personal attack, and when used casually, will just warn a user that it can get them blocked. I've told Eric a half dozen times that he needs to stop, and supported his block for saying it the other day. I can still like Eric and dislike some of the things he says, in part because I know that word is used differently in the UK. That isn't an excuse, but an explanation. I don't think it is the biggest crime here or as bad as POV pushing and POV socking, but it is an insensitive thing to say if you know it will offend a large number of people. I have no children, but if I did and one called someone the C word, I would slap the taste out of their mouth. In my culture (US) that is the most offensive thing you can say. But Misplaced Pages isn't an American workplace, it is a global village, so I have to make small allowances even if I find it offensive personally. I can't let my bias get in the way of acting neutral as an administrator. I will still discourage it, and block for it when it is used as a weapon, without judging the character of the other person.

You keep getting back to the Five Pillars, a document I like myself. It is a clever document, an essay really, that sums up our hopes and ideals but has zero power of enforcement. It was created by User:Neutrality in 2005, can be edited by anyone except IPs (it is semi-protected). The Pillars are powerful, simple, useful, helpful but not policy and they never will be. They reflect our our hopes and dreams for Misplaced Pages, and serve new users very well because they so concisely explain who we are. They do so at the expense of accuracy, however, as we are forced to oversimplify in order to make each pillar an easy to understand little nugget. They do not form the basis for policy. They stand alone, and in that respect, have served us well.

You are relatively new here, I will just say that the current fit of incivility will pass. Like the ocean tides, different problems rise and fall, part of a larger pattern, somewhat chaotic if you look at up close, but it smooths out if you see over time. Most of the people here, even the rude ones, are good people if you get to know them. The people who get things done, who accomplish things (here and life in general) are those that can lick their wounds, admit their mistakes, step back sometimes and reflect, and not take things personally. I put a giant apology on my page (and 3 others) the other day for a mistake I made. The taste of crow still lingers. But it ended what could have been drama, and restored faith in those involved, instantly, so it served Misplaced Pages best for me to do that instead of beat the drama drum. While right on the merits, I was wrong on procedure, but I would rather be happy than right. Anyway, I won't be upset if you revert. For me, the goal is always to find the things we agree upon, and build on that, rather than debate the areas we disagree. I'm wired that way, to accept differences, and allow myself to consider other ideas while they consider mine. Hopefully, that is something that will happen. Dennis - 2¢ 16:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

You warned me about being "disruptive" at WER, but have you ever warned Eric about being disruptive at GGTF? Rationalobserver (talk) 16:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The Pillars are powerful, simple, useful, helpful but not policy and they never will be.

Huh? Dennis, the first pillar, Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, is a policy and so is the second pillar: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. The third and fourth pillars, Misplaced Pages:Copyrights and Misplaced Pages:Civility are also policies. The last pillar, Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules, is proabably the closest to an essay, but it too is an official Misplaced Pages policy. So, what exactly are you claiming, that these five pages are policy in name only? Rationalobserver (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The individual policies existed as policies before the "Pillars" was invented. It is useful, but the idea of "pillars" is still an artificial construct. And yes I did warn Eric, in particular about calling Jimbo the C word, and told him "I would have blocked you too". I didn't warn him at GGTF because I didn't SEE it. I've never edited there, it isn't even on my watchlist. I did go there once, I didn't care for the tone, I left without comment. For me to comment might have been disruptive. I've warned Eric on other things, I just don't beat him over the head with it. He isn't stupid. To repeat it over and over would be bludgeoning. That is my point: Once you have had your say, don't keep repeating the same points over and over. You don't have to let everyone know every time you disagree. It can become badgering. If you say "I hate ice cream", you don't have to tell me you hate ice cream every time I bring up how much I like it in future discussions, nor convince me that ice cream is bad for me. It gets tiresome, and after a while, it is disruptive. Sometimes, you just have to know when to drop the stick.

If I "hated" you, I wouldn't be telling you this. It doesn't benefit me in any way, I have nothing to gain personally and could be doing other things, yet here I am. Again, you are rather new, and I don't want to see you eventually in the same position that Carol and Eric are right now. I've seen it before, many times, I know what it looks like before/during/after. Usually it happens at WP:AN, where the threshold is much lower and the ban is just as final. I'm saying that if you want to do good, you really need to learn to disconnect emotionally here and assume some good faith. Worry less about breaking things down, and instead, embrace those that agree with you on most issues, and build something great together. We need more articles on notable women, for instance. Lets make a list and fix that instead of arguing about things that don't improve the experience for the reader.

If you can't see that what I've written in the best of faith, with years of experience behind it, and that it is the same thing I would (and have) said to Eric, then I'm wasting my time and yours. I'm not trying to argue with you here, nor wag my finger at you, I'm trying to help you. If you don't want the help, that is ok, too. Say the word, I will leave your talk page, I promise. I'm not trying to force it on you, nor judge your character in the least, I'm commenting on your methods. I'm trying to reach out to you because I've seen others walk the path you are on, and I know where it leads. Dennis - 2¢ 19:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but I see you as an apologist for your friends and an elitist regarding everyone else. In the past few weeks you have made your rounds to every drama-filled discussion, and at each stop you assert what is no more than your personal opinion regarding how things should be around here. I think admins should be expected to uphold policies, not undermine them in favor of their preferences. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

And at first glance, I can see why you might see me that way. I'm not so easy to get to know. Most of those places were places I was forced to go, such as Arb, where someone presented evidence against me, without even bothering to notify me. WER, I founded, so it is natural I am there. The same with ANI and AN, those are specifically admin boards, and the community decided I should be an admin. To me, the most powerful and important policy we have is WP:IAR. It isn't a license to do anything you want, but it does say to not let written rules get in the way of improving the encyclopedia, the articles. I don't quote a lot of policies, you don't see me on many policy pages either. That is one of the reasons many people asked me to run for admin, I try to just use common sense instead of written rules. And really, the core of Misplaced Pages was written on that premise, that you don't need written rules if you just use common sense. You see it everywhere here. But back to your impression of me, I completely understand why that is the impression, and find no fault in you for coming to that conclusion given recent events. All I can say is that if you took the time to know me, you would see otherwise. You might disagree with me sometimes, but you would understand my motivation, why I'm so liberal when it comes to enforcement. If you choose to, you do, if not, I understand. Right now, I'm trying to get to know you, instead of assuming you are the sum total of my impression over the last week or so. Dennis - 2¢ 21:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Weird, eh?

Time magazine came out with a list of words to ban. Among those words was feminists. The magazine later apologized. GoodDay (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I saw that, and I agree that it was weird. They also recently described Ted Cruz as the US's most interesting politician, which I found equally bizarre! Rationalobserver (talk) 00:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Yikes. GoodDay (talk) 00:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

GoodDay, if you need more proof that Time is well into its decline, take a look at this! Rationalobserver (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical music/Guidelines

You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical music/Guidelines. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated. For tips, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment § Suggestions for responding. If you wish to change the frequency or topics of these notices, or do not wish to receive them any longer, please adjust your entries at WP:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

You have inspired a new award, the "No Gaslighting Award!"

	The "No Gaslighting Award!"
	Please accept this award, on behalf of all the women editors here who are tired of being gaslighted, with our thanks for sticking up for all women editors who can not to come forward to confront the bullies themselves! Djembayz (talk) 13:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Djembayz! You are too kind. I humbly accept this award. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

FGM

Hi Rationalobserver, this is just to thank you again for your kind support at the FAC. It was very good of you to take the time to review it; I know it's not an easy read. It meant a lot to me that you were willing to do that. All the best, SlimVirgin 00:07, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, as a reader of Misplaced Pages it meant a lot to me that you had done such a fantastic job with an immensely important and difficult topic. I should really be thanking you; hell, all females who read Misplaced Pages should thank you, and that's millions upon millions of us! Rationalobserver (talk) 00:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Steam

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Please comment on Talk:Aspromonte goat

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (academics)

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)

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talk:Hotter than July (album)

Head over there and give your opinion 5.81.225.225 (talk) 20:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

It looks like Dan56 is a party to that dispute, so I'm gonna decline. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Civility

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Bot policy

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RfC United States same-sex marriage map

I opened up an RfC for the U.S. same-sex marriage map due to the complicated situation of Kansas: RfC: How should we color Kansas? Prcc27 (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Your experience with Misplaced Pages so far

Hello Rationalobserver,

I am conducting research about newcomers to Misplaced Pages and I was hoping to ask you some questions. I’ve noticed you’ve had some good activity recently. Is there any chance you have time in the next month to speak with me? If you are interested or have any questions, please email me at gmugar syr.edu or leave a message on my talk page.

I hope to be in touch soon,

Gabrielm199 (talk) 04:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

E-mail sent, Gabrielm199. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)

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Block Notice

This account has been blocked indefinitely as a sock puppet of Jazzerino (talk · contribs · global contribs · page moves · user creation · block log) that was created to violate Misplaced Pages policy. Note that multiple accounts are allowed, but using them for illegitimate reasons is not, and that all edits made while evading a block or ban may be reverted or deleted. If this account is not a sock puppet, and you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text {{unblock|Your reason here ~~~~}} below. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Mike V • Talk 22:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)