Talk:Jesus: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 00:36, 22 December 2014 editSineBot (talk \| contribs)Bots2,555,315 editsm Signing comment by LearnedElder - ""← Previous edit		Revision as of 00:40, 22 December 2014 edit undoLearnedElder (talk \| contribs)43 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
Line 282:		Line 282:
	::If that is the inference you draw from my question about your source, I suggest you read my question again, more carefully, and read ] about him. ] (]) 21:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)		::If that is the inference you draw from my question about your source, I suggest you read my question again, more carefully, and read ] about him. ] (]) 21:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::Judea was a very short term governmental entity whose citizens were overwhelmingly Jews. Jesus, by the information related to us by the sources, was a Jew. Jew is the standard description of people sharing this religio-cultural heritage. There is no reason not to describe him as a Jew. To describe his as a Judean, or citizen of Judea, is both less than helpful, because people on average are not familiar with the Judean government, and also rather clearly obfuscatory, as the evidence clearly indicates his status as an ethnic Jew. ] (]) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)		:::Judea was a very short term governmental entity whose citizens were overwhelmingly Jews. Jesus, by the information related to us by the sources, was a Jew. Jew is the standard description of people sharing this religio-cultural heritage. There is no reason not to describe him as a Jew. To describe his as a Judean, or citizen of Judea, is both less than helpful, because people on average are not familiar with the Judean government, and also rather clearly obfuscatory, as the evidence clearly indicates his status as an ethnic Jew. ] (]) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
	Well, I want you then to tell me what is the Religion of Judaism and Christianity, because according to you, there is a connection between the two, and in my opinion they are not related. Explain to me what is Judaism and its basic tenets. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->		Well, I want you then to tell me what is the Religion of Judaism and Christianity, because according to you, there is a connection between the two, and in my opinion they are not related. Explain to me what is Judaism and its basic tenets.And so in your, professional opinion, his work has to be ignored because he is labeled an Antisemite? I dont agree with such logic unfortunately, and I see that you are biased against Mr. Freedman. And no, I think the article you people wrote is Very Antisemitic, because the man is "Jewish".
			<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Revision as of 00:40, 22 December 2014

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137Auto-archiving period: 21 days

Template:Vital article

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: What should this article be named? A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname. Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates? A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format. Q3: Did Jesus exist? A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian? A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others? A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc. Q6: Why is the infobox so brief? A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus? A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions. Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences? A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians. Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus? A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion. Q10: Why does the article state "ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this? A10: Misplaced Pages requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Jesus is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 25, 2013.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 17, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
June 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 3, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 2, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
May 3, 2005	Articles for deletion	Kept
October 6, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
December 15, 2005	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
April 14, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
November 27, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
April 21, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
August 21, 2007	WikiProject A-class review	Approved
July 12, 2009	Good article reassessment	Delisted
May 5, 2013	Good article nominee	Listed
May 28, 2013	Guild of Copy Editors	Copyedited
August 15, 2013	Featured article candidate	Promoted
Current status: Featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Religion Top‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Christianity: Jesus / Theology / Saints / Catholicism / Eastern O. / Oriental O. / Jewish / Anglicanism / Latter Day Saints Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated task forces:
/
	This article is within the scope of the Jesus work group, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive.
	This article is supported by theology work group (assessed as Top-importance).
	Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (assessed as Top-importance).
	Catholic Church portal This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Jewish Christianity (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Anglicanism (assessed as Top-importance).
	Latter Day Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement (assessed as Top-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Islam Mid‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography: Core

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is listed on the project's core biographies page.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Bahá'í Faith High‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bahá'í Faith, a coordinated attempt to increase the quality and quantity of information about the Baháʼí Faith on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.Bahá'í FaithWikipedia:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithTemplate:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithBahá'í Faith
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Ancient Near East Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Near East, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of ancient Near East–related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient Near EastWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near EastTemplate:WikiProject Ancient Near EastAncient Near East
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Bible Top‑importance

	Bible portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

"Topics that spark Misplaced Pages 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013.

The answer to your question may already be in the FAQ.The FAQ provides links to archived talk page discussions.
Please read the FAQ.

The answer to your question may already be in the FAQ. Please read the FAQ first.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jesus article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Talk:Jesus/archivebox

Is this section POV or OR or both? or I guess possibly neither?

Is this article supposed to be written from a Christian viewpoint or from a neutral viewpoint? I think that the answer is "neutral." In that case, I'd like to call your attention to a section that looks like original research and Christian POV. Years ago when my wife was sick I edited this page a lot. In fact, I was one of the editors listed on the talk page as a go-to expert on the topic. (That might have been my earlier username, leadwind.) I bought a lot of good books on the topic and did a lot of research. I learned a lot, especially from fellow Wikipedians, and I made several additions to the page that stuck. It's a great topic, and I'm really happy with the high quality of the page, despite the emotions it sometimes raises. But there's one issue that's really nagged at me over the years, so here I am trying to uphold the highest standards of NPOV. Wish me luck.

There's a section that doesn't label itself as Christian but that describes Jesus the way Christians want him described. And the content of the section is based on citations to primary texts, not secondary or tertiary RSs as you could easily find on this rich, wonderful topic. I remember making this mistake myself and adding material that cited the Gospels. It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to quote the New Testament in describing Jesus. Why not? The New Testament is sort of the reason that I know who Jesus even was. So the section of "Life and Teachings in the New Testament" seems like a natural. If we just paraphrase the New Testament, all cited to the New Testament itself, isn't that exactly the content that the title of the section promises?

Unfortunately, not according to Misplaced Pages, and I didn't understand this at first. If our reader sees a section on a different page called "Evolution of cetaceans," they expect to read content that summarizes what the best secondary and tertiary sources have to say about the how whales evolved. (Hint: it's cool.) What do you call it when editors gather primary sources together and present it without reference to RSs? That seems like original research. Are there any tertiary sources that treat the topic in this way? If you opened a book and saw a summary of the gospels cited to the gospels themselves, what sort of book would you expect it to be? A sectarian book. Who is it that says we should learn about Jesus from the New Testament? Christians. Who says you should learn about Jesus by reading summaries of the best secondary and tertiary sources? Misplaced Pages. So the format is OR driven by POV.

Years ago, the section didn't have the scholarly intro, explaining the synoptic gospels etc, and I'm one of the editors that helped establish that subsection. Maybe a scholarly introduction to each section is in order. For example, why are the Romans so nice in Luke? The Gospel of Luke isn't going to tell us that, but a reader might be curious to know why the crucifixion in Luke is painless instead of agonizing. For that sort of insight, you need RSs.

But that's not all. Another official stance of most Christians is that all the material in the New Testament about Jesus should be considered together as a coherent whole, and all of equal weight. This section follows the Christian playbook by conflating the gospels. No one but Christians does that. In fact, for almost 2000 years Christians have been working hard to make the New Testament hang together as a single narrative. There's a de facto policy of minimizing the differences between gospels, and that's exactly what this section does. Historians routinely talk about the three synoptic gospels together because they tell similar stories that are useful for learning about the historical Jesus. But no one takes the Gospel of John seriously, except Christians. It's too different from the other three, and it doesn't have the ring of truth to it. I'm fine with including what John says about Jesus because that's a big part of Christianity. You wouldn't have the trinity without John. But it should be described under its own subsection, not with the synoptics. And again it shouldn't be citations to John, it should be what the best scholars say that John says about Jesus (e.g., gave spectacular signs, didn't cast out demons, preached mostly near Jerusalem, etc.).

Finally, here's a relatively minor point, but one that again shows the Christian bias. The section is about Jesus' life, so it shouldn't include his resurrection. That's his afterlife, and it doesn't tell us anything about the historical Jesus. You might say that the resurrection is key to understanding Jesus, so OK, then maybe you can talk me into it so that we get everything in the four canonical gospels into the section. Even if it's after he's died, OK, if you think it's that important, let's include it. And then let's also include that before Jesus was born in a stable (Luke) or born in his father's house (Matthew), he was the eternal divine Word (John). Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and the first thing we should know in the section about the New Testament and Jesus is that he is the firstborn of all creation, who was with God from the beginning. I can imagine why Christians don't want to put that first. It totally doesn't fit the Christmas story, which is a much better story. Also, it's a little odd that Jesus wasn't the Logos until about AD 90. I can see why there's reference to the resurrection (afterlife) but not the Logos (before life). But WP says we should be neutral. It's got to be about his natural life only or his entire supernatural life.

Finally, why isn't this section just "Jesus in the New Testament"? Why is it his life and teachings that we care about. Because he really was alive and really taught? OK, that's a great reason, but then take out the resurrection stuff. Or is it because the New Testament, resurrection included, did so much to define who Jesus was? Then why not the whole New Testament? I can see why Christians would want to keep out scholarly opinion on "Jesus in the New Testament," but maybe let's give the reader the whole story. Or stick with just the synoptics because they have historical value. But don't include John and Acts without including what Paul wrote about Jesus (e.g., that he was the holy spirit).

I know I've been gone a long time. This has been on my mind. Honestly, I think it's a pretty clear case, but I expect some pretty stiff resistance. I trust that this page is still civil. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 03:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

We can't get away from referencing the gospels here, IMO, since even scholars recognize it is the main source of information, historial or otherwise, on Jesus. However, there may be sections where scholarly views can be expanded on. And there are undoubtedly other areas in which the article can be improved. But the above is a lot to go through between general concerns and what could be construed as proposals. I recommend you summarize it into some specific and pointed proposals for other editors to consider. Thanks for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 20:33, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Airborne: "We can't get away from referencing the gospels here, IMO, since even scholars recognize it is the main source of information, historial or otherwise, on Jesus."

First, only the synoptics are a main source of historical information. If scholarly opinion is important to you, would you agree with scholars that we treat the synoptics together and John separately? Second, can you cite a WP policy that agrees with you? Is there a WP policy that says, "In such and such a case, go ahead and treat a topic the way that sectarians involved with the topic want it treated" or "just lean on primary sources and rely on editors to get it right"? I don't think such a policy exists. Lacking such a policy, we should instead follow the policies that actually exist. Shouldn't we follow WP policy, even for this article? Jonathan Tweet (talk) 05:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually looking through the citations, the only primary source I see cited is one Quran verse. The rest are from secondary sources that happen to be commenting on primary sources (which they have to do by definition of being secondary sources). Would you please point to the primary sources you act like half the article cites?

The section is clearly labelled "Life and teachings in the New Testament." Where does it say that anything in that section actually happened outside of the New Testament? Where does it tell the reader they have to regard the New Testament as anything more than the most popular legends from which most of the world knows of Jesus? Where does it say that Jesus's miracles or resurrection occur outside of the New Testament?

Given that about the only thing academia can agree on was that Jesus:

probably existed
frequently spoke about religion (and probably politics given their overlap in that day)
was baptized by someone we might as well call John the Baptist
was crucified by Roman soldiers under either orders of the Romans or the Pharisees with cooperation of the other group

--there's not a damn thing material to do a "life and teachings" section without relying on the New Testament so much that we have to just say from the get-go "this is just from the New Testament." Oh, wait, the article doesn't even do that: it cites secondary sources that discuss the New Testament and the most common interpretations of those works in academia. That is, the section is explaining those texts in the light of modern historical scholarship, rather preaching doctrine. When it doesn't do that, it treats the work as a story (notice that the section on the resurrection and ascension is mostly present tense instead of past tense).

You've more or less made a broad and unevidenced accusation that everyone who has worked on the article since you left it of pushing a fundamentalist Christian POV -- all based on your failure to read the section in context, your WP:OR opinions regarding the texts (particularly John), your utter failure to actually check a single Goddamn citation, an "all or nothing" attitude toward the New Testmant that would require academia to reject most primary sources written before the modern era (and even many of those for political reasons), and the paranoid assumption that only Christians would dare include the sources commenting on the earliest and most common texts about Jesus in the article about Jesus. How does that fit in with WP:AGF? Ian.thomson (talk) 06:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Regarding discussing the Gospels, reliable sources tell us they are useful. Consider, for example some passages from Bart Ehrman in his latest book, How Jesus Became God.

Regarding discrepancies, embellishments, etc in the Gospels: "Does this mean that the Gospels are useless as historical sources? No, it means that we need to have rigorous historical methods to help us examine books that were written for one purpose."
"But even though they are the best sources available to us, they really are not as good as we might hope." (my italics)

So, my position that we cannot ignore the Gospels is supported by scholars, or at least one in this case. However, you appear to believe that we are saying different things; we are likely saying the same thing. And Ehrman chimes in with something similar: "The reason we need is that the Gospels cannot simply be taken at face value as giving us historically reliable accounts of the things Jesus said and did."

Thus, to answer one of your questions, my comment that we cannot ignore the Gospels follows WP:RS, although I agree we have to be careful to include what scholarly sources say and how they separate historicity from theology. And my suggestion that you make more pointed and focused specific recommendations remains. Thanks for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 10:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, you folks are right. There's a lot less primary source citation than I remember. I'll drop that as a concern. What about conflating the gospels? What secular source merges John with the synoptics? More generally, this section gives the impression that the gospels tell one story, whereas historians say they tell at least two, maybe four. If you can't cite a secular source that treats the gospels this way, this section is POV. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 01:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the best way to go to determine that would be to consult one of the more recent articles in reference sources and see what it does. The Lindsay Jones Encyclopedia of Religion, along with the Brill/Eerdmans Encyclopedia of Christianity, seem to me to be the most recent really well-regarded reference sources likely to deal with this topic, and I think following their lead, whatever it is, would probably be considered acceptable. Give me a few days and I'll respond with what I find there. John Carter (talk) 01:59, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi John. I remember your name from years back. I think yours is a fine suggestion. Can I add one? Encyclopedia Britannica is a highly-rated encyclopedia, and I'd like Misplaced Pages to have everything they have about Jesus. Our article is longer, so it should have everything they have and more. Of course, that's just my opinion, not WP policy. For simplicity, if I had to pick one thing that's most wrong with this section, it's that it uses exactly the four gospels that have been canonical since c 180. That's a Christian way of thinking about "the gospels." Historians refer to the synoptics, or if they are reaching broadly enough to look in John, then they'll look in Thomas, too. Thomas has more authentic words of the historical Jesus than John, so to include John but not Thomas looks a lot like POV to me. If this section changed to "Life and teachings of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels," I'd be happy. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 00:16, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church is a well-respected tertiary source that I like to use because it's scholarly and dense. It has a long article on Jesus Christ which we could use as a model. The ODCC capitalizes "Him" when referring to Jesus, so it's on the sectarian side, but it's scholarly. I would propose that our secular article on Jesus be no more sectarian than the Jesus Christ article in the ODCC. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Airborne you rightly say: "my position that we cannot ignore the Gospels is supported by scholars." I agree with you. The gospels are central to understanding both Jesus and how historians know anything about Jesus. If anything, I'd like us to say even more about the gospels than we already do. For example, I'd like to cite EP Sanders when he says that the "empty tomb" accounts don't seem like deliberate fraud. You're also right to cite Ehrman as a reliable expert on this topic. Let's put more of what Ehrman says into this section. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I do not object on theological grounds (though that I personally have doubts about the uncanonicity of the Gospel of Thomas is not a reason for inclusion) and understand that Thomas is contemporary with the Gospel of John, but I do have to point out that the Gospel of Thomas features almost no biography: it is a collection of sayings and parables. It also barely features reactions to the sayings, except for a couple of points where the disciples react in confusion and Jesus has to explain things or otherwise derides them. Plus, even though while I personally do study Thomas for my own religious fulfillment, I have to acknowledge that it would be revisionist and POV to include Thomas in the New Testament when no known historical church does so. The section is on Jesus's life as detailed in the New Testament. As before, the article does not go "Ok, let's look only at John but not Thomas," it merely looks to the secondary and tertiary sources, which in turn choose to use John but not Thomas because that's where more biographical information (however legendary) is found. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The Gospel of Thomas may provide some information. Churches (that I know of) have not and do not draw from it, but that is probably because they have a particular theological point of view and that Gospel doesn't always align with it. For example, Linda Woodhead notes in Christianity: A Very Short Introduction, that within it, "Jesus endorses the authority of women, rejects attempts to turn him into a figure of unique authority, instructs people that the truth is already within and around them, and encourages a view of the spiritual quest as an individual rather than a group enterprise.” Misplaced Pages does not follow any particular POV, so if scholars such as Woodhead and other reliable sources discuss this Gospel, it can be included. Airborne84 (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Ian, since the gospel of Thomas is full of teachings, it seems to fit in a section on scriptural accounts of his life and teaching. if you're saying that we should include biographical gospels even if they're legendary (like John), then there are a couple more gospels we could include, like the gospel of Peter. Those would round out our information on why he was baptized (even though he was sinless and didn't need to repent), why he was crucified (he wasn't, it was a trick), and what people saw at the empty tomb (like a giant talking cross). This material contradicts the synoptics, but so does John, and that's apparently OK. It's not clear, however, that adding legendary material helps our readers. Anyway, I'm curious to hear what you think of seeing how other tertiary sources handle the material, since you seem happy with the current arrangement. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 15:07, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church has a paragraph on Mark, then one on Matthew and Luke, and then one on John. The paragraph on John points out its difference from the synoptics, such as Jesus not experiencing any human weakness (no baptism, no temptation, no Gethsemane, no agony). How about we follow that outline? Jonathan Tweet (talk) 22:43, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Greek name in lead

Jesus spoke Aramaic, Hebrew possibly, Greek doubtfully. He lived under the Latin-speaking Roman Empire. Why is his name rendered in Greek in the first sentence, but not in other languages? I suggest leaving all foreign renderings to the Etymology section. —Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:20, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Because the earliest definite rendering of his name we have is the Greek version. This, not Latin, was the lingua franca in the eastern Empire (that's why the New Testament manuscripts are in Greek). We know his name in Aramaic/Hebrew was "Yeshua" but we don't know for sure what the original spelling of this was—it was probably ישוע in Hebrew, but not definitely—so it's left out. I hope this helps. — Cliftonian (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Removed passages

I removed the below passages from the "other views" section and am posting them here. Perhaps they can go in a different section. The "many" part will need some sourcing, of course. The issue regarding location has to do with WP:NPOV. Placing "rebuttals" at the end of sections can be seen as moving toward a POV or even an essay. This position should be sourced properly and listed in a section positing similar views, not offered to rebut a statement. Not to say that can never be done on Misplaced Pages, but this just seemed out of place to me in the section it was placed. It is also not clear to me that C.S. Lewis and von Balthasar are addressing Russell's points, so this could also be WP:OR. Feel free to weigh in. Airborne84 (talk) 19:14, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Many have disputed Russell's opinion regarding Jesus' alleged vindictiveness, including C.S. Lewis, who thought the doors of hell are locked from the inside rather than from the outside, and Hans Urs von Balthasar.

References

Hans Urs von Balthasar «Hoffnung auf das Heil aller?». Dare we hope: "that all men be saved"? ; with, A short discourse on hell

As you acknowledge, rebutting an opinion can be done in Misplaced Pages. It seems highly inappropriate to have the only quoted statement in the article come from Russell, especially when that statement is patently false. Forgiving enemies was a central part of Jesus' message. I think Lewis and von Balthasar do address Russell's point about Hell - that the existence of Hell does not imply a vindictive God.Jimjilin (talk) 13:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Jimjilin. Removing the above statement unbalances the article. Furthermore Christian theologians over the centuries - more than just Lewis and von Balthasar - have adequately addressed this claim. Jtrevor99 (talk) 18:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

If are no other objections I'll repost the above mentioned passage.Jimjilin (talk) 13:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind in principle if the passages above are in the article, provided they are adequately sourced. They are not now. However, I do not believe that they belong in "other views" which is where the criticisms are stated. This is not a criticism or an "other view". It should be located in the article along with other similar thoughts.

I'm also a bit concerned by the comments above. We don't decide as editors in these situations which reliable sources are true and which are false. And the fact that various theologians disagree does not cancel out Russell's position on Misplaced Pages, nor would that invalidate it or falsify it (putting aside whether it is actually valid). Multiple positions and ideas, even conflicting, can appear in the same article. Claims about the falsity of Russell's statements should should be saved for other platforms on the web. And removing the passages does not unbalance the article. It achieved Featured Article status before they were added.

Finally, as we discuss reinstating the passages—in any part of the article—please address my concern that (1) it is not adequately sourced, specifically the claim about "many", (2) that it appears to violate WP:SYNTH (if the two authors were not addressing Russell's point specifically (and it is not clear that they are), then the ideas cannot be linked), and (3) that it appears to present a POV in the main article by "rebutting" any stated criticism of Jesus. Thanks for your time. Airborne84 (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't be too worried about the comments above. The point is that Russell's opinion on the matter clearly fits under WP:FRINGE given that the vast majority of theologians, scholars and historians share the opposing viewpoint. While his viewpoint doesn't need to be eliminated entirely from the article it should not be given great prominence, especially by removing a paired rebuttal from statements of his opinion. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your challenges: (1) I will leave to those more well-versed than I. But Russell's opinion is a challenge to the core teachings of Christianity, and so I am absolutely certain there are hundreds if not thousands of cites that deal directly with Russell's viewpoint, even if they don't directly cite Russell himself. (2) I would disagree with your statement that "it is not clear that they are". It seems abundantly clear to me, negating any concern of WP:SYNTH. (3) Letting Russell's opinion stand without rebuttal would appear to present a POV as well - and a minority one at that. Besides, I don't think it would be ethical to state Russell's opinion without also stating responses to Russell's opinion. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we should remove the Russell quote as well? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

If the concern is simply that it is Russell alone making the statement, and that it could be a fringe view, that can be remedied easily enough. There is plenty of existing literature by commentators on the same topic. The idea can be sourced by other authors as well. And I don't think historians and scholars much discuss Jesus's vindictive character or lack of it. Theologians do, of course. But it should be clear why.

If there are sources directly addressing Russell's position, then they should be used, not the ones listed. That would alleviate the WP:SYNTH issue. However, they should still be listed in a section with like ideas, not in the section called "other views".

Finally, I don't agree that it reduces a POV position to rebut a critical statement like this. Please read through the article and see what other critical statements exist. There is one short paragraph, of which Russell's idea is part, and a few sentences in an above section on Jewish views. So, about 99 percent of the article is neutral or has unrebutted statements like "John's Gospel presents the teachings of Jesus not merely as his own preaching, but as divine revelation" or multiple discussions of the miracles he performed. Certainly many have disagreed that Jesus's teachings are divine revelation, including likely the entire non-Christian world throughout history. And none of the latter statements about miracles have accompanying rebuttals from commentators who addressed other possibilities. Yet, you're suggesting that if a very few critical passages exist within the article without a rebuttal showing their "falsity", then the article is POV? I strongly disagree with this idea. I truly would not be interested in suggesting we sprinkle in "rebuttals" from WP:RS commentators disagreeing with many of the unchallenged Gospel and theological positions in the article. Yet, it would be consistent with your suggestion that a critical statement for which opposing ideas exist should be rebutted. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 08:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

That's well put, Airborne84 and I agree with it. --Rbreen (talk) 12:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

You misunderstood me on the POV discussion. My point was, and still is, that whether Russell's criticism is presented without a rebuttal, or with a rebuttal, the article is still presenting a specific POV. There is no point in arguing to the contrary as it is a truism, and any argument regarding POV here is not helpful. As for your other comments on POV - you're welcome to start inserting rebuttals to the claims of miracles, divinity, etc., but you would also need to insert rebuttals to those rebuttals ... and to those ... and to those ... Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Your latter point is exactly why we should avoid putting in "rebuttals". And yes, Russell's quote presents a particular POV. I doubt there's disagreement there. The Gospels in the article present another POV. Peter and others present other POVs. It's OK to present POV statements in the article as long as the article adheres to the guidelines in WP:NPOV. Since the article is a featured article, a consensus of editors thought that it met Featured Article criterion 1d. If you are arguing that the entire article is POV, you will have to describe the problem beyond one quote in the article, IMO. Airborne84 (talk) 18:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see that someone had reinstated the "rebuttal". Whoever it was, please review WP:BRD. Until a consensus is established to insert the passages in the article, the version without them has consensus. Airborne84 (talk) 19:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Glad we agree on the point regarding rebuttals :) I think we're getting a little off-track here. To summarize: I don't find a POV argument particularly helpful in deciding Russell's position in the article. I am also not advocating for his complete omission. Rather, I am advocating that if he is included, his critics ought also be included. That would be sufficient, for one who wishes to delve further into the discussion, to browse the back-and-forth rebuttal arguments that have inevitably occurred. Something as simple as "Russell argues for abc; others have responded xyz" is fine. That is no different than what I would expect Misplaced Pages to do to air minority arguments on other, less emotionally and religiously charged, topics. As for whether he goes under "Other Views" or elsewhere...I have no opinion on that.

Oh, and full disclosure (which I should have mentioned from the start): as a conservative Christian I do have a conflict of interest in this discussion. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I understand your position. At this point we are simply rehashing. To add the rebuttal, you'll need to properly source the "many" wording, remove the editorializing "alleged", provide passages that clearly and directly address Russell's specific points and, most importantly, build a consensus for the change.

Your personal beliefs don't matter here at Misplaced Pages. We all follow the same Misplaced Pages policies. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It'd be quite easy to argue that the very materials Russell uses to support his position actually contradict him, but that would be original research and so disallowed. I will therefore leave it to those better versed in others' research to do so. Jtrevor99 (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

@Jimjilin, please review WP:BRD as your restoration of the passages violates it, and does not address the other concerns that I noted. The second addition appears to be edit warring and I left you a note on your talk page about this. As the previous version had consensus, you need to build a new consensus to add the passages. Simply re-adding passages that have been noted to have multiple issues and do not have a consensus behind them is not the best way to get results here at Misplaced Pages. Airborne84 (talk) 18:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I haven't really addressed it before because my primary issue with the passages in question is that they should not be juxtaposed with Russell's. I assume that likewise it would not be acceptable to list the C.S. Lewis and Balthasar passages in another section followed by Russell's as a "rebuttal". However, since Jimjilin appears to be willing to stride boldly toward the 3RR rule regarding the link between these passages and Russell's, I'll address it to potentially keep Jimjilin from getting blocked for this.

The passages imply (at least to me) that C.S. Lewis and Balthasar allow that hell might not equate to everlasting punishment. This implies a lack of vindictiveness on their part. It has no implications for Jesus. Russell is stating his belief, ostensibly based on his reading of scripture, that Jesus believed in everlasting punishment. He also asserts "a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching", which is different again from the idea of hell being or not being everlasting punishment. If C.S. Lewis said that Jesus thought that "the doors of hell are locked from the inside rather than from the outside", this would establish a link to part of what Russell is asserting (but not the reaction to his preaching). But the passage says only that CS Lewis thought that. This article is not about C.S. Lewis or Balthasar's views.

Having said that, I will reiterate that, even with a clear link (which there is not), it is not appropriate to rebut statements here in the manner of an essay.

As a final note for Jimjilin, it might be useful to think about what precedent that this rebuttal statement would set in a controversial article. It would not be something I would do, but this would open the door for others to go through the article and list opposing positions from reliable sources to many of the scriptural positions on miracles, divinity, etc. And as Jtrevor99 noted, editors may then want to list rebuttals to the rebuttals and where do they stop? It just seems like a bad idea. Thanks. Airborne84 (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It lists Jesus as a "fictional character." Even if you are not a Christian, Jesus is not a fictional character. 128.164.114.254 (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

It does not, nowhere in the article does it say Jesus is fictional. Please read the article before making comments.Jeppiz (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The image of Jesus

As everyone knows there is a lot of controversy around the image of Jesus. But It seems that one version always wins out, at a price. Jesus is loved by millions of non-White people around the world. The best solution and I do not think anyone could argue with this is to use this composite image in the lead as done here Historical Jesus. This is the best way to handle a plural world.--Inayity (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Surely it is more inclusive and more in line with the spirit of Christian doctrine to have one image representing everyone? Having different images seems to me to imply arbitrarily splitting up Christians based on what they look like. After all, according to Christianity "Christ is all, and in all" (Col 3:11) and the race isn't relevant. — Cliftonian (talk) 10:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I actually see that "Christ is all, and in all" and race not being relevant as a reason to go ahead and have a composite image of the most common racial depictions of Jesus. It wouldn't have to be as small as the one at Historical Jesus and Race and appearance of Jesus, just four of the most diverse. Say, the Chinese, Ethiopian, European. All we need is a Native American Jesus (I'm seeing plenty in a Google image search, just need to find one that we can use and figure out how to upload it), and we'd have all the bases from Jesus Loves the Little Children covered. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I also agree with the change. It is in line with WP:WORLDVIEW, and having multiple notable depictions of Jesus' image is encyclopedic. I'd be fine now with the one from Historical Jesus. Not opposed to Ian.thomson's suggestion either, but would be interested in seeing the composite image. Airborne84 (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

It has been and widely remains the view amongst Bible loving Christians that images of Jesus are a profound and offensive violation of His commands, specifically the second commandment (Matt.5.17-20, Deut.5.8-9, Col.1.15). Cpsoper (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

That would be a good thing to take to the wiki for Christians by Christians. This one is by everyone for everyone. Compatibility with Christian doctrine is not one of our core values nor should it be.--Adam in MO Talk 01:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

So everyone who disagrees with you - i.e. 90+ % of Christians everywhere - is not a "Bible loving" Christian. Paul B (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I am a conservative Christian, and I've never heard this claim before. Obviously, there is such a claim regarding Mohammad in the Islam faith, and there may indeed be some sects of Christianity that view images of Christ as offensive. But neither western Christianity, nor for that matter Judaism, hold that images of God or Christ are offensive - only those of any other god, or worship of a graven image as a substitute for God. Jtrevor99 (talk) 03:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Christianity has been fine more often than not with depicting God (though there have been movements in most denominations that have complained at some point), but Judaism actually does get a bit touchy about the matter. Some Jews even self-censor the English word "God" to stay as far away from idolatry as possible. Still, Cpsoper's claim appears to be personal belief presented universal and objective claims regarding historical doctrines, ones that simply do not hold up to scrutiny. Is he spiritually right (or wrong)? That's not a matter for the talk pages. Is his claim applicable or relevant to policies and guidelines concerning article content? Not at all. I think the concensus is clear that we're not going to remove images representing Jesus, the issue is whether we're going with Jesus cracker on a Christ, an older image, this composite image, or a simpler composite image. We should probably hat this portion of the discussion, in fact, and get back to business. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:14, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

To play "devil's advocate": The historical image is indeed compatible with WP:WORLDVIEW, but the current image, though undoubtedly less accurate, is nevertheless more universally recognizable. Current Western and Eastern media, as well as historical media (Renaissance artists, medieval artists, and the like), all use an image like the current one. Significant exceptions include the Ethiopian church, and probably a few others. Keep in mind, additionally, that the "historical" image is nothing more than a reasonable guess - which is exactly what the current image was in the minds of those historical artists, though their guess was borne out of a desire to make Jesus look "more relatable" to patrons of the Roman and Greek Orthodoz churches - i.e., like a European.

Or, to put the argument a slightly different way: we simply don't know what he looked like, and while the historical image is probably closer to reality, the current image is more universal as it's closer to what's been used throughout antiquity in the majority of western and eastern cultures. Jtrevor99 (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that "current image" was added to the article with no discussion , and was later edit-warred back in, replacing a longstanding, much more historically notable picture (this one), that had been there for years. Paul B (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

That IS interesting. For purely aesthetic reasons I'd prefer the one that was edit warred out. Jtrevor99 (talk) 02:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

All of the majority-black churches I've visited depicted Jesus as black, or had mostly black depictions if they had any non-black ones as well. The store I used to work at also stocks roughly equal numbers of white and black nativity sets, and the town I live in is 40-45% black. This is in line with the common trend that Jesus is usually depicted as the local race, if not depicted as a Mediterranean Semite. My family actually has a black manger set, and if we were any more Scottish, and we'd still be in Scotland; though this was in part to see if my grandparents would react to it. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's try to get organized here. I'll lay out the various proposals and then we can argue in favor or against each one below. The proposal to remove all images entirely has already been voted down. Jtrevor99 (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

(1) Keep current image. Primary argument in favor is that it is a more universally recognized and accepted depiction of Christ, even if it is less historically accurate. (The "European edition Jesus" is the most widespread due to Roman Catholicism being the most widespread of all Christian sects.)

(2) Change to the earlier image that was removed during an edit war. Primary argument in favor is the same as (1).

(3) Change to a single image that is intended to portray scholars' best guess on what Jesus may have actually looked like. Primary argument in favor is historical relevance and accuracy.

(4) Change to a composite image such as this one. Primary argument in favor is that it can satisfy a variety of viewpoints. Exact composite to use TBD (to be determined) if this proposal wins.

Jesus as a Judean rather than a Jew

An editor has today changed several descriptions of Jesus as a Jew to read that he was a Judean. However, the source for this is a book by Benjamin H. Freedman, who is described as an anti-semite, and I feel their is a danger that he is describing Jesus as a non Jew to square up with his own anti semitic beliefs. Does anyone else feel that this at least might make him an unreliable source? Britmax (talk) 20:42, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted this. Saying Jesus was not Jewish is nonsense. And Judaea and Galilee are two different places—saying somebody's a "Judaean from Galilee" is like saying someone's a Scotsman from Wales. — Cliftonian (talk) 20:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I guess you were talking about myself, well when you talk about anti-semitism, I dont remember saying this to anyone. You are the first person to tell me this. The Roman Province actually was called Judea. I am not talking about today's Galilea and today's Judea. I will ask you not to make this references because you are this way spreading Anti-Semitism. In Misplaced Pages, we have to stop judging people's character or personal beliefs like you are doing but analyze scientifically what has been said. Let's Learn from Science and Reason and not by Emotion.In a democratic society, everyone is allowed to express his opinion thats why i let you express your Beliefs about Benjamin Freedman, he is "Jewish" by the way, because you are allowed to express your beliefs no matter how unpleasant that may be, if you are planning to stop someone from expressing himself, you are just acting as a Tyrant. Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by LearnedElder (talk • contribs) 21:36, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by LearnedElder (talk • contribs) 21:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

If that is the inference you draw from my question about your source, I suggest you read my question again, more carefully, and read our article about him. Britmax (talk) 21:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Judea was a very short term governmental entity whose citizens were overwhelmingly Jews. Jesus, by the information related to us by the sources, was a Jew. Jew is the standard description of people sharing this religio-cultural heritage. There is no reason not to describe him as a Jew. To describe his as a Judean, or citizen of Judea, is both less than helpful, because people on average are not familiar with the Judean government, and also rather clearly obfuscatory, as the evidence clearly indicates his status as an ethnic Jew. John Carter (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, I want you then to tell me what is the Religion of Judaism and Christianity, because according to you, there is a connection between the two, and in my opinion they are not related. Explain to me what is Judaism and its basic tenets.And so in your, professional opinion, his work has to be ignored because he is labeled an Antisemite? I dont agree with such logic unfortunately, and I see that you are biased against Mr. Freedman. And no, I think the article you people wrote is Very Antisemitic, because the man is "Jewish".

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by LearnedElder (talk • contribs) 00:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Categories: