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the term "Rebel group controlling territory" is fake term made up in order to replace the term "unrecognized state"

the islamic state isn't just a rebel group with a central goal of toppling some regime. they formed a state with government and other infrastracutes like economy, law enforcment, education, agriculture etc and they keep developing them and calls for various experts around the world to join their new state/caliphate.

the term "Rebel group controlling territory" for the islamic state is nothing more than the false preception of them as nothing more than gang of lunatics who all what they doing is to run from city to city and kill the police and anyone who oppose them but it doesn't true, they are replacing the former goverments in many ways from law enforcment to education.

and that POV pushing is just the one part of a series of POV pushing made by people who can't seperate their justified hate for the islamic state from the article about the islamic state despite the fact that the article should be NEUTRAL and mention facts as they are. and as i already showed her there is some people who are simply too eager to attack everything relating to ISIS from their legitimacy of being caliphate and even for being "jihadist" with nothing but demagogy like the OPINION of some individuals and even just realy stupid and hilarious "arguments" like "ISIS is an unrecognized-state, they aren't a state so they can't be a caliphate".

some people edited this article in a realy bad way which harms wikipedia reputation for being neutral. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

You will find the term originated List_of_active_rebel_groups#Groups_which_control_territory here where the Article is called List of Active Rebel Groups and the section 1st header "Groups Which Control Territory" =>Rebel group controlling territory term used here. That article says: "This is a list of active rebel groups around the world whose domains may be subnational, transnational or international. A "rebel group" is defined here as a political group seeking change through armed conflict in opposition to an established government or governments." Compare to Sovereign state. I hope the clarification was helpful. Legacypac ([[User talk:Legacypac|ta

Legacypac i saw that article and it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of this term on the islamic state case or in general. on the other hand you should read the article you mentioned about sovereign state, that article showed the international law terms for being a sovereign state:

1.having a permanent population. the islamic state have it.

2.defined territory. the islamic state have it and they aren't the first state who have imperialistic territorial claims.

3.the CAPACITY to enter into relations with other sovereign states. they do have the capacity and there is even claims that they have secret relations with turkey and even an embassy.

4.one government. they have it.

the article even talk about states without recognitions from other states so they obviously fit for being called a 'state'.

it mybe more practical to define some rebel groups who conquer some city or territory as part of an armed battle against some government or group as "rebel group controlling territory" but the islamic state is different in the vast organized efforts in various infrastractures from law enforcment and juridical system to education, agriculture, water, electricity, sewage, post offices(in some areas) and even building new roads and facilities. and ofcourse they are a new state and not just some group trying to topple and replace some government in a specific state, so even the term "rebel group" didn't fit to them from the beginning.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/08/18/iraq_isis_terror_obama_us_intelligence_islamic_state

the statehood of the islamic state is talked in many other articles and mentioned by people who live in their territory. so there is no reason to treat them as "rebel group controlling territory" cause they don't just "control" the the territory they realy govern over the territory and the people in it in the level of at least low level third world country.

and anyway most people will agree that for long time the islamic state is no longer some "rebel group controlling teritory".--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we can agree that they fail under "Constitutive theory" as no state recognizes them as a country.

Your list is from the Declarative theory which requires all 4 elements.

1) a defined territory (not stable, shifts daily, requires saying that Iraq and/or Syria's borders have changed, which even Syria's other enemies have never said)

2) a permanent population; (there are no "citizens". They do not have popular support in areas controlled. Refugees all over the place.)

3) a government (they do control local government functions to various degrees, but local government is not national sovereignty. They surely do not exercise the exclusive right to use force anywhere.)

and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states, so long as it wasn't achieved by force whether this consists in the employment of arms, in threatening diplomatic representations, or in any other effective coercive measure. (from Article 11 of the Montevideo Convention) (ummm... fail? and the UN designation of ISIL as a terrorist group pretty much precludes diplomatic recognition.)

Okay, I'd like to point out some problems with your theory: 1)There are areas that are firmly under their control, but that doesn't even matter because "defined territory" doesn't necessarily mean stable. Somalia has defined territory, and it's still unstable in areas. 2) Popular support is irrelevant. Do you think all the dictators of history had popular support? They do have a permanent population, because, "citizen" or not, they have people living in their territory under their rule. It could even be argued that they are "citizens", despite the fact they are not recognized officially as such. 3)Have you even read the reports on their activity in Derna? They have taken over the police force, administrative buildings, schools and other educational programs and facilities, and more. They are quite effective at administering the territory under their control. 4)I'm sure they have the capacity to attempt to enter diplomatic relations with other countries, but since they view most other countries as evil I doubt they will. In any case, that isn't necessary to fall under the category of unrecognized state. 5)Diplomatic recognition is irrelevant. It doesn't need diplomatic recognition to be classified as an unrecognized state. Somaliland isn't recognized by any sovereign nation, and yet it is still recognized as an unrecognized state by this website. ISIL more than meets the definition of an unrecognized state. Back in 2013, when they first formed, they didn't. They were just another insurgent group operating in Iraq and Syria. But this year they firmly established themselves and made major gains, seizing major population centers in Iraq from government forces. Their further success in the June 2014 campaign and the subsequent declaration of the Caliphate has only cemented their status as an unrecognized state. Those of you who argue otherwise have clearly never been to Iraq or Syria, and have not been keeping themselves informed of the situation. I know people who have been over there, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing: ISIL does have control of the territories it holds. They are an unrecognized state. This cannot be denied. Anasaitis (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC) 18:06, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac , Gregkaye(i don't know who wrote that comment). don't try to made up new terms and rewrite the international law and known defenition of 'state'.

1. neither do the territory which syria and iraq control is "stable", not that it means anything about the legitimacy of some state if it loses or gain some territory.

2."not popular"? since when a state needs to be "popular"? anyway you need to stop with those claims of "the muslims don't support them" "they are not popular" and all this nonesense of assuming that you know and can generalize about the muslim world as if they all have the same opinion and somekind of authority, after our discussion on that matter we both know that you don't know much about islam and know nothing at all about the people inside the islamic state territory or muslims in general.

3. local goverment is the big part that makes them from some group who conquer territory as part of a militiary campaign against some specific country to a state that govern its territory and people. the "right" according to your POV has nothing to do with her.

4. they can have it by "force" or various other ways according to the will of the other country, the capacity is all what is matter her and not if they succeded or not in having relations and formal recognition of some state.

the constitutive theory isn't the only or main defenition of state so it doesn't matter if the islamic state isn't a state according to this theory which is problematic from its core cause "recognition" is nothing but formal and mostly symbolic act in many cases like the "recognition" of russia in south ossetia and transnistria as "sovereign states" and part of russia in the same time or like the "recognition" of turkey in the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus"(northern cyprus) which is the same case.

countries like that has no real "recognition" from any country so they are called "unrecognized states" and they aren't the only countries in that situation. so as you can see the constitutive theory defenition of a state is ignored most of the time and that why we have the term "unrecognized state". --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I already noted there are two schools of thought on nationhood - interpretation falls between the two schools.

Wheels of steel0 Can you name any other group in the world that is as rebellious as 'SIL? They have rebelled against the governments of Syria and the democratically elected government of Iraq. They have rebelled against al-Qaeda to whom they previously swore loyalty and from whom they have now been disowned. They have rebelled against a great number of Islamic authorities who have come to the point, in many cases, of calling them un-Islamic. I cannot see that they are anything other than the epitome of a rebel group. Who can you say is worse? Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the term "rebel group" is about the cause and goals of the group and not its personal character. the islamic state don't want to replace the current syrian goverment in another "syrian" goverment and do it in iraq. the islamic state want to conquer those countries and destroying them completely. they even forbiden teachers in their schools to mention the words "syria" or "iraq" and the names of other arab states which they see as fake countries and nations. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The difficult and uncomfortable truth is that they are probably both. Other language wiki articles on ISIL have two, one for the group as ISIL, one for the group as Islamic state. When is that nettle going to be grasped by the en.wiki article? ~ P123ct1 (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. While I think that the term rebel group is very apt in some circumstances (especially when comparisons are being made to other groups) I agree that it does not give a full or accurate big picture view of what they are about. How about a lead text, "... is a Sunni, extremist, jihadist militant organization controlling territory ..." The link to List of active rebel groups#Groups which control territory can still be attached but perhaps to the words "controlling territory". As far as "status" or "type" in the infobox are concerned I think rebel group gives good description. However, in other situations rebel group does not describe an organisation with slick PR that 'SIL exhibits. The first titles in the governance section might also warrant a revision but no ideas at present. Perhaps a word like promotion could be added to Propaganda and social media. I object to the use of government. This description fails on the basis that 'SIL is not a nation. The infobox should talk of governance not government. They are not a nation and don't have a recognised government. Last time I checked sources did not describe 'SIL as having a government and nor should we. Gregkaye ✍♪ 22:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye the term government has nothing to do with nationality at all. goverment is the administrative system which controll a state, and they are a state as you can see.

the lack of "nationality" as we know it and the idea of being the state of all muslims(kind of islamic nationality) is exactly what made them a caliphate which is also kind of goverment system. many people think that "recognizing" their statehood or being a caliphate is kind of support in them but the fact is that recognition doesn't affect the fact that they are a state and obviously has nothing to do with being a caliphate. they are pan islamic state which is a caliphate. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:49, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the unrecognized "states" wheels mention are both stable and backed by a great power aka puppet states. A rebel group does not need to recognize the legitimate government, in fact they usually reject the government. I never referenced muslims, this has nothing to do with religion - popular support means the people support (or at least recognize but not necessarily like) the group as the legitimate government. Provision of water, power, courts etc does NOT equal sovereignty-if it did every city and province/state would be its own country. If wheels is here to argue that ISIL is a sovereign nation please provide some actual support and come back here after you successfully amend List_of_sovereign_states. This position has been rejected many times all over Misplaced Pages and there is no reason to change this article to conflict with the rest of the project. No one else here sees that ISIL is a state. Legacypac (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

• Wheels of steel0 As far as I see it you are pushing a fairly strong POV. Have you read State. I will readily hear any defence to the contrary but, by my reading, QSIS fails at every level. Please don't say that I "can see" something that doesn't seem to me to fit in with any definition of state. One thing that I found interesting was that the article "Islamic state" does not have a parallel equivalent on Arabic Misplaced Pages. How did this concept originate? Without information to the contrary I think that the most logical answer is to interpret an "Islamic state" as being simply a "state" that is ajectivally described by "Islamic". You need to present evidence of your claim of a concept of a state for all Muslims. This is not how countries and international law works. If say a Czechoslovakian person goes, for instance to Mexico they don't remain in Czechoslovakia. They go to Mexico. They do not remain in the same state. There are only two states most directly involved in the 'SIL story. They are Iraq and Syria and there are a number of rebel/militant, groups/organisations fighting for power in between. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac i didn't gave examples for unrecognized states but examples for "recognition" and how it can't realy determine if some group is a state or not. we can both agree that you don't know how much people like the islamic state in its territory and how much don't like them, but as you can see at yourself many people cooperates with them whether if it is by paying taxes and for other services like water and by using facilities in their control like courthouses and schools and even by complaining to their kind of police about other people.

city may run many similar things but a city isn't indipendent and it is part of a country, that why a city without a larger state which control it is called a city-state and not "rebel group controling territory" or "group of people controling territory".

your demand that i will correct anyother article which made similar mistake with the islamic state is ridiculous. the blind refusal of seeing them as what they are is a mistake that should be corrected on the article about the islamic state before any other article that mention them.

you on the other hand needs to show me how the islamic state doesn't fit to the known defenition of a state instead of trying to made up new defenition with new terms like "popular support" and "the right" to force their rule.

Gregkaye can you show me how you got to the conclusion that the islamic state doesn't fit to those terms? i talked about that with a lot of details so you need to do more than writing your claim without any kind of argument.

the term "islamic state" as a type of country means nothing at all for the legitimacy of the islamic state for being a caliphate or a state so what is your point her exactly?. anyway if we are talking about the arabic wikipedia you should know that the arabic article of the islamic state describing the 'situation' of the islamic state as unrecognized-state as this article did not many time ago.

and what can't you understand in the fact that the islamic state sees itself as the state of all muslims? you talked about nationality and this is the nationality of the islamic state, the same ideology that defines a caliphate and seperate it from countries with none-islamic nationality which force the sharia on the people like iran. so how a person who goes from one country to another has anything to do with the subject her? the islamic state as any other state rule what its rule and the international law have nothing to do with the nationality/ideology of the state itself.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:18, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 Please also do not misrepresent a dictionary defined word such as rebel. This word has a wide range of meanings and it does not help if you make POV assertions regarding one fairly extreme form of its definition. For other views of the term please see search on: "Che Guevara" AND (rebel OR rebellion) and, for instance, content at Star Wars, Rebel Alliance. Throughout history there have been noble rebellions and less noble rebellions. No judgement if meant by the use of the term. It merely constitutes a correct and encyclopaedic description of the situation. This has nothing to do with readers independent judgements of the group and its actions and what they represent.

In your second sentence in you opening statement above you claimed, "they formed a state". I would ask you to look at definitions of state and present reasons based on that content as to why you think that this group fits the related encyclopaedic descriptions. References in reliable sources to reference to the group as being a nation state would also be helpful. The fact is that QSIS, as I am at liberty to describe it, is a rebel group. It has taken control of territory that exists within the border areas of Iraq and Syria. You have claimed that they have formed a "state" but you have not substantiated this claim according to the definitions of the word used.

How a person goes from one country to another has everything to do with the subject. Please read the content of State.Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye it seems you failed to understand that the term "rebel" is not just about the action of the group but also about what they are without being a rebel, while rebels are group(from very small to very big) of people resisting to some authority this term can't be used when the group has formed a functioning state which rule a significant amount of territory.

and for being a state, i ALREADY showed how they fit to the term in THIS discussion, don't try to ignore it:

"

1.having a permanent population. the islamic state have it.

2.defined territory. the islamic state have it and they aren't the first state who have imperialistic territorial claims.

3.the CAPACITY to enter into relations with other sovereign states. they do have the capacity and there is even claims that they have secret relations with turkey and even an embassy.

4.one government. they have it.

the article even talk about states without recognitions from other states so they obviously fit for being called a 'state'.

"

i even commented about the desperate criticism of "legacypac" about it so why you keep talking as if i didn't talked about the terms at all? if you do had some kind of real criticism you were at least talking about the terms and what i said about them ofcourse. and again your ridiculous connection between being a state/government to nationality just show that you simply have inaccurate and false preception of the concept of a state. and it look like you readed the article about state in the same way you "readed" the articles about nation and nationality so don't tell me to read the article about state in your attempt to avoid a real discussion about the terms i talked about and other things from that article which you chose to ignore. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 With regard to your use of the terms "failed", "desperate" and "ridiculous" please see WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL. If you want people to discuss issues with you can you please treat them with respect. I have given options to respond as above. They have no RS recognition as a state. They have no RS recognition as a government. Sources, that I have seen, do not refer to them in these ways. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:30, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye referring sources have nothing to do with her cause as you can see in the article about the term state and in many actual real-life examples the term state is not about any kind of "recognition"(especialy not of some american news network and others) but about actual functionality and facts which you deny over and over again, that why the term "unrecognized-state" exist. you indeed failed in giving any real argument to support your claim and your way of avoiding real discussion and only saying your opinion without any kind of arguments or even referring to the arguments i showed her is desperate. you give the POV of some online news site and personal people as an argument for claims that has nothing to do with the POV of those people you use, and you ignore them when they doesn't have the same POV as you like with our discussion about if the islamic state is "jihadistic" and caliphate.

the problem is not just with your claims but with your whole rhetoric. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 In addition to all the above please read and understand Misplaced Pages:Weasel words with regard to your unsubstantiated statement regarding, "many actual real-life examples the term state". Demonstrate to us all the list of nations that recognise the rebel group QSIS to be a state. Demonstrate a predominance of references in RS. Please don't make unsubstantiated accusations about rhetoric. Again see WP:NPA. I am in no way avoiding the topic of functionality and in no way deny the view of QSIS being an intricately functioning rebel group. This is an irrelevance. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye the term "weasel words" just described the rhetoric you are using now with how you act as if you said anything meaningful about what i said while you are doing nothing instead of having claims without anykind of argument not to mention one that refer to what i just said before. and i already gave you examples for states without recognition that have other names in some media like south ossetia, abkhazia and north cyprus and more, you call it "unsubstantiated"?, don't tell me that you didn't heard about those states cause i mentioned them before in this discussion.

now despite what we know now about unrecognized state and the common terms which don't include any kind of "recognition" you demand some ridiculous demands like "Demonstrate to us all the list of nations that recognise the rebel group QSIS to be a state" and "Demonstrate a predominance of references in RS" despite the fact that we are just talking about how "recognition" have nothing to do with being a state. you even demand "recognition" of news networks as "sources" which only show that you don't know the use of reliable sources, third party sources are used for getting FACTS which the third party sources are likely to know and not the POV of the news network which is obviously not in favor of the islamic state and will keep referring them as a "terror group" instead of a state no matter who will recognize them. this is not the way sources should be used and once again you are using that demagogy for backing your claims while you completly ignore them when you don't agree with them like with how those sources call this group "jihadist".

your rhetoric is desperate and full of demagogy, i don't know if you are just hating this group too much that you have to disagree with everything that these people want to make themselves look like(like with being "jihadistic" and your pointless and presistant opposing for calling them like that) or just realy get things wrong at the beginning but can't backoff from your claims after you made them even when you see that you are wrong. in both cases you need to let go instead of using demagogy and desperate rhetoric.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 just to give you the heads up. I was not the only editor to be looking at the unsubstantiated "unrecognised state" terminology that the article used to use. Another editor added something like a "how" tag to the term as I was simultaneously thought about the issue. The problem is that (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "unrecognised state" gets ZERO results in news. It isn't used. (Now if I had repeated that last sentence as I was tempted to do, just so you know, this would have been an example of rhetoric). The main phrase that I knew to be attested was, (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "terrorist organisation" which is a designation that is attested by groups such as the United Nations. Another editor came up with the rebel group terminology which also has the advantage of fitting in with the content of List of active rebel groups.

As I said, "please read and understand WP:Weasel words. Please read WP:WALLOFTEXT. Please read WP:rhetoric. Please stop making unsubstantiated accusations. Thankyou. Gregkaye ✍♪ 01:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye you just posted a pile of mumblings without any relevant argument as if i didn't just showed you in the previous comment how the POV of the media about how to call them can't be count as RS cause the way they choose to call them has nothing to do with FACTS, and instead of reacting to what i said you just say what you said before just as a long and pointless speech full of accusations and links that actualy describe your desperate rhetoric of making comments that looks like they say something but in fact are empty of any real argument and even barely related to the comment you are responding to.

show me how you think that the way some news network and random online pages choose to call some group can be count as "Reliable Source" for any kind of FACT or comback to the argument about the terms for being a state and finaly tell me your mysterious reasons for why you think the islamic state failed "in any level" for meeting the terms for being a state, and of course don't just throw empty claims again.

if you can't do one of those things you should simply quite from this argument instead of posting more empty speeches that barely have anything to do with the subject or to anything i just said before.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 @ "full of accusations" - cite them! What do you disagree with and why? I am more than happy to talk about "some news network" but usually on condition that the news network concerned fitted into the more reliable side of WP:RS. I wouldn't trust "random online pages" at least not without researching. I tend to be one of the more cynical editors here Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye "cite them" like for saying that i am doing "weasel wording" and "wall of text" which are both done only by you her with your pointless speeches and desperate rhetoric. your accusations are ridiculous with their irony and only used by you for derailing this discussion cause you ran out of arguments. and again, it doesn't matter if you call those news network "reliable" cause the whole "reliable" concept is for FACTS and not for the way they choose to call some group, i hope you can notice the different between telling about something that happened or happening and between using different names for some group. your desperate rhetoric of using the names some news networks use as "sources" for anything isn't just desperate and wrong but also hypocrisy cause in a previous debate on the islamic state matter you just said her that wikipedia should ignore the news networks when they call the islamic state "jihadist" and stop calling them jihadistic on this article, why that wasn't "reliable sources"?...

your desperate rhetoric isn't doing good for you so it is about time that you come with some real arguments and adopt reasonable way of backing up your claims or quite from this argument.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 For WP:weasel words see your statement: many actual real-life examples the term state is not about any kind of "recognition". For WP:walloftext look above. For WP:Rhetoric look at your own repetitions. You have now additionally made a fallacious accusation that I said that: wikipedia should ignore the news networks. You need to strike your libellous attack.

My argument is simple and it is found here: (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "a state". Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye i gave you real life examples for states without recognition and that have been called "unrecognized states" so what you couldn't understand her exactly? don't you notice the relation to the subject we are talking about or you just throw blindly accusations cause you ran out of arguments?. i repeat my self cause of your desperate attempts of avoiding real argument and finaly give some kind of argument to support your claim. but instead of showing arguments you are using the WP:walloftext you talked about, giving me a link to some google search with web pages and news articles about the islamic state names that barely talk about their being of state and only mention some letters from a muslim group who asked david cameron not to acknowledge the islamic state nor as "islamic" or "state". you call that an argument? or you just hoped that i wouldn't read the articles in that search?, seems your WP:walloftext startegy of derailing this discussion just failed.

i am still waiting for real and written argument about how the islamic state isn't a state or an argument about why should we adopt the POV of some news networks. don't bother to comment without any of this cause your desperate WP:weasel words and WP:walloftext startegies of avoiding from providing real argument remain obvious and futile no matter how much you will try to blame me in what you are doing.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 I have not seen that you have given me anything. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0, Please read, Sovereign state. The article begins, "A state is a nonphysical juridical entity of the international legal system.." There is nothing in connection with this group that has a favourable fit with international law. They are an outlawed group. Misplaced Pages is here to accurately report content. We go by realities. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye "part of international legal system"? read about international law if you don't realy know about what it is, you also need to read the article you just mentioned and the terms of the international law i talked about on earlier comments, the article just mentioned the terms of the international law at the beginning but you ignored them in order to make an excuse for another pointless comment.

and i didn't even mentioned the fact that the term state is mostly matter of fact and not of recognition, there is no meaning for the term "outlawed" for being a state, and there is no meaning for the international law itself for being a state, states can follow some UN resolutions or completely ignore them but they are still states. the international law have a defenition for a state but it doesn't mean that being a state is something that needs authorization of the UN like some professional certification. you don't know how to manage a debate and only repeat on your failed and only argument: "nobody recognize them as state"(the bottom line of most of your comments if we ignore all your WP:walloftext) without any reaction to my argument(about the "recognition" thing) and even ignore crucial parts of what you claim to read.

comback with a real argument or just stop posting pointless comments--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Wheels of steel0, GregKaye. Your pointless arguing and continued disruptive editing are a nuisance. You delete any attempts to edit this article so that ISIL is defined as an unrecognized state. You told me there was an agreement by the majority of the other editors, and that it the conversation had reached a consensus. I came to the talk page to add my thoughts on the topic, and what did I find? There was no agreement by consensus that ISIL wasn't a state. In fact, most of the other editors seem to think otherwise. You lied to me and deleted my edits for no apparent reason. I may be new here, but I'm pretty sure what you're doing is disruptive editing and edit warring. Anasaitis (talk) 22:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Anasaitis It would be extremely well appreciated here if editors could address each other civilly without anger. It would also be appreciated if you wouldn't come flying in with unsubstantiated accusation. The fact is that we are building an encyclopaedia here. We go by definitions of words. We attempt to present accurate information. State is a very specifically defined word. We also go by WP:RS. We also can't just present claims that others are not making. We can't use Misplaced Pages's voice on disputable matters. See WP:OR.

The comments that have accompanied my edits have been:

• Removing Category:States and territories established in 2014, The group is not a state. This article is about the group. It may have reorganised territories and when articles are written on those territories, then use
• Please read State, There are many big organised groups in the world. Becoming a state requires political will.

What did I say to you and where? Your talk page contains six edits. None of them are mine. I have not had any edits on my talk page from the Anasaitis login. GregKaye ✍♪ 23:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

If coming here to argue pro-ISIL positions that can't be substantiated with reliable sources expect to run into serious resistance. It has been well established they are not a state, or an unrecognized state. Legacypac (talk) 09:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye why can't you understand the difference between make a statment about a fact between calling or not calling some group in some ways which is about recognition and POV of the writers and not a fact?, the article you mentioned has talked about "statements of fact" which has nothing to do with the recognition of some functioning government as a state or not. we already talked about it but you keep with the same false rhetoric despite the fact that you didn't saw new networks as "reliable sources" for calling the IS "jihadistic" and realy fought against using the terms the news networks use for them. you are using false rhetoric and double standards again, anyone can be a reliable source only if and when he say something that you feel comfortable with.

Legacypac "well estublished"? both you and gregkaye failed to back up your blind resistance for treating them as unrecognized state and infact your only argument was that state can only be a state if they are being "recognized" by some country and ignored the known term 'unrecognized state'.

and you claim that we support the islamic state? like seriously? i am a complete atheist and everybody who support the "pro-isil" you are talking about were probably atheist to or even christians.

i think both you and gregkaye should finnaly understand that "recognition" is meaningless her, the islamic state is functioning as a state and govern their territory as one and this is a FACT, you can like it or not but using different names doesn't going to change the fact that they are no longer some terrorist organisation who managed to drive off the army and police from some territory. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 15:47, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:@Wheels of steel0 your posts suggest you are bias, reuse to follow the sources, and may in fact be part of ISIL's propaganda efforts. You are the one claiming the article is wrong even though it has 100s of sources. You bring the evidence you are right - not up to us to disprove your fringe theories. Legacypac (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac "follow the sources"? you don't know what is the meaning of using sources and what is their purpose, sources are used for backing up FACTS and not the POV about the legitimacy of some group to seize the territory they govern.

you also don't know what is the real meaning of "recognition" of some state(or news network) in another state, you just use desperate rhetoric of claiming that your POV have "sources".

before you accusing me of being "part of ISIL's propaganda efforts" i suggest you to learn about what is sources and about some basic facts about states and politics.

and above all, you and gregkaye need to understand that refusing to acknowledge the reality of the IS existence as a state with functioning government is not "anti-isil" but nothing more than denial of the truth. wikipedia should be NEUTRAL and not sacrifice significant facts in order to reflect the stances of the editors of the article. the truth should be heard as it is and you can be sure that everyone who is against them(including me) don't realy going to be any less against them if he will know that the IS is now a low-level functioning state.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

What has happened to the maps?

One of the maps usefully showed the borders of Iraq, Syria and neighbouring countries. Why has this gone? Editors may be familiar with this part of the Middle East, but what about readers who may not be? This article is being written for WP readers, after all. Every map used by the media always shows the different countries clearly marked, why not this article? It seems like common sense to follow their good example. The maps will make no sense to readers who do not know where the Iraq-Syria border is. ~ P-123 (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

@P-123: which map do you mean? A link to that will help our discussion. Mhhossein (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein: I could not find it. On 2 November I thanked the editor who put in the borders, but his map does not show up on versions of the page around that date. It was in one of the Lead infoboxes. gregkaye, can you help? It was one of Spesh's maps. ~ P-123 (talk) 01:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 map edit history is as follows.

• @Spesh531: "update 11/1/2014 labels" 23:02, 1 November 2014
• @RobiH: label contents as already presented in NPOV form under the map were changed and unnecessarily added to the map: "other Syrian rebels" was changed to "Syrian rebel groups", "Syrian government" was changed to "Assad Regime (Syria)", "Iraqi government" was changed to "Iraq/Shia Army" and reference to the Kurds was edited out. There was also an additional ref of "Israel occupied Syria" added which, for once, actually mentions Israel in reference to, IMO, legitimate wrong. Never-the-less I'd suggest that this is content that is most constructively developed elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. 20:37, 4 December 2014
• @Legacypac: "Reverted to version as of 23:02, 1 November 2014 - terrorist friendly labels included, seek consensus before making such changes" 15:24, 5 December 2014
• @Joan301009 "update" 12:49, 6 December 2014

(I'd suggest a use of the format as of edits by Spesh53 and Legacypac). At least this is what I was going to suggest b4 realising that the map is used on a great number of pages where local languages may not even use Latin script. gregkaye ✍♪ 03:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

This is the map I was referring to. (First one in the list above.) Why was it discontinued? What are the terrorist-friendly labels? I asked for the borders to be put in, and then the map suddenly appeared, was there for a while and disappeared, I am not sure when. ~ P-123 (talk) 08:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Why? See Wikidata on parallel articles. The addition of English headings may not be appreciated by many users across the entire encyclopedia. Lables and and timings are covered in comments above. gregkaye ✍♪ 15:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The RobiH version minimized the Iraq/Syria border and splashed Islamic State across the gray zone. It also highlighted Golan heights bright blue and other problems in the legend. It looks like an ISIL propaganda publication. Legacypac (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: I don't understand. The RobiH version isn't the one I am talking about. You say the addition of English headings may not be appreciated ... but why cannot one version of the map I linked to be given the English titles and be used just in this article? I am probably being naïve, but why is everything so darned complicated in Misplaced Pages? ~ P-123 (talk) 02:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

gregkaye: Belated thanks for providing that list. ~ P-123 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Greg said the English headings might be an issue, not me. Each version is saved over the others. Maybe we could save the version we like with English labels as a new file name and use it. Of course anyone could overwrite that file too, but we can police that. The other issue is the map gets updated occasionally, so this article would have to rely on the English version being updated as well as the "no words" version. The no words version has an attached key in many languages. Legacypac (talk) 08:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Good, if that can be achieved without too much difficulty, as readers would be helped greatly if they had a map that clearly shows the borders, IMO. ~ P-123 (talk) 10:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I've raised a question at User talk:Spesh531 regarding a potential development of a parallel file for an image of the map but adapted with English headings. There may also be other editors that could do this or be involved. I don't personally have a clue. GregKaye ✍♪ 05:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to thank who ever updated the map to include the Sinai peninsula and derna --Weegeeislyfe (talk) 07:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL

There is recently much talk of editors being "pro-ISIL" and "anti-ISIL". What do these two terms mean, exactly? ~ P-123 (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The terms "anti-ISIL" and "pro-ISIL" have not appeared in the talk page and archive that much. Here are the instances:

• Revision as of 16:53, 23 July 2014 User:50.53.148.252 "anti-ISIL propaganda"
• Revision as of 12:38, 4 November 2014 User:Felino123 "the views of anti-ISIL Muslims"
• Revision as of 21:17, 19 November 2014 User:P-123 "anti-ISIL propaganda"
• Revision as of 23:59, 8 December 2014 P-123 "this article is anti-ISIL from the word go."
• Revision as of 15:58, 9 December 2014 P-123 "profound anti-ISIL POV"
• Revision as of 09:12, 14 December 2014 User:Legacypac "pro-ISIL positions that can't be substantiated"
• Revision as of 15:48, 14 December 2014 User:Wheels of steel0 ""pro-isil" you are talking about were probably atheist to or even christians."

Any answers? GregKaye ✍♪ 04:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

To me, "anti-ISIL" means criticism of ISIL placed prominently in the article. This was a problem before but is now resolved, except in the Lead, where to me the second paragraph looks like an attack on ISIL before the article has started. Others may think differently. Neutral presentation of facts has sometimes been seen as being "pro-ISIL", but being neutral must not be mistaken for whitewashing ISIL. Are there other views or is this subject not worth examining? P-123 (talk) 12:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Pro-ISIL is presenting the ISIL narrative as factual - other then where we specifically say "ISIL claims xyz" or "so called" followed by appropriate qualifications. That starts with statements suggesting they are a sovereign state. As for criticisms - we can't accurately deal with ISIL without placing the criticisms next to the claims because 99% of the world does not like virtually every ISIL actions. Legacypac (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac blindly undermining about anything they claim or say is just stupid and ignores the facts which wikipedia should mention without caring if its look like "pro-isil". facts are facts and they stay facts whether you are against the IS or not, and wikipedia should reflect those facts instead of the editor's personal feelings about some group. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 21:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 Infering that someone is blind and stupid is an abuse of talk page privilege. You should strike your personal attack. Please read and absorb the related content in policy. Please can all editors stand up to these abuses and help build a more collegiate approach to discussion on the page. GregKaye ✍♪ 06:12, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

ha we need to state real facts, not ISIL fictions as fact. Legacypac (talk) 05:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Wheels of steel0. Qualifying facts, that they are now a caliphate and Islamic state – this is what happened on 29 June, these are events – to me is "anti-ISIL" POV and flouts WP:NPOV. If I said something about a person named Jane, I would not say, "Jane - or she calls herself Jane, or she self-declares as Jane - did this." That would be crazy. To use "self-declared" with ISIL is as crazy as that, IMO! P-123 (talk)

I find the terms anti-ISIL and pro-ISIL to be quite inappropriate. It basically moves from the language of NPOV and uses discrimination language.

There are legitimate points of view in regard to these issues. There is the point of view of 'SIL and its supporters and there is the point of view of non-'SIL supporters in, for instance, the wider Islamic world. Which view do we represent. Neither! We just say what each side claims. We don't say that they are the worldwide caliphate and we don't say that they are not. We say that this is what they claim to be and we say that others disagree. We don't take sides in our presentation of article content. That would be POV. If we said in Misplaced Pages's voice and in line with a large content of criticism that they were not a caliphate then that would be POV. If we stated in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are a caliphate then that would also be POV. Why do people find this so hard to understand. GregKaye ✍♪ 19:25, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• The term "anti-ISIL" was first used to describe a phenomenon that appeared on the Talk page some time ago, a phenomenon that looked to me and some other editors like "anti-ISIL" POV. As usual, these are matters of opinion. I am not suggesting these two terms should be used, only that they should be examined carefully now that they have arisen. There is absolutely no doubt there is a clear divide among editors about what WP:NPOV means and those two terms appear to me to describe that divide quite well. P-123 (talk) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I personally think that the image placed on the right is a suitable encapsulation of clear fundamentals of WP:NPOV. NPOV is a guideline to ensure that article content is balanced and not skewed towards any one point of view. For instance, when there is disputed content we do not take a WP:YESPOV approach in article content and present opinion as facts. We quote what people say and let the reader decide. GregKaye ✍♪ 02:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: Why do you always call ISIL 'SIL? I think in the context of this discussion this is quite a relevant question. ~ P-123 (talk) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

For similar reasons as we have covered on my talk page. The article states, "Many object to using the name "Islamic State" owing to the far-reaching religious and political claims to authority which that name implies". I am one of them. This group kills people who go to Mosques (sometimes who preach at mosques), who read the Quran and, from their own POV, are trying to be Muslim.

• So editors are right: you are anti-ISIL. Editors are supposed to edit neutrally. Private opinions should not affect editing. P-123 (talk) 10:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

The word Islam is based on the word Salaam which has a generally understood meaning of peace. I am not anti-'SIL and certainly not so as a group of individuals. I wish them all happy and peaceful lives within a wish that they might live up to the root meaning of their proclaimed name.

Names mentioned in the article that have variously been recommend for use include, "Al-Qaeda Separatists in Iraq and Syria" or "QSIS", and 'Un-Islamic State' (UIS). I chose my own wording in the context of an article talk page, other people choose theirs. We all treat issues and editors with respect as we do so. GregKaye ✍♪ 02:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: You say, "If we stated in Misplaced Pages's voice that they are a caliphate then that would also be POV." Please explain exactly how. A fact is a fact, is it not? It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". All it can do is record them neutrally, and record the different views about those facts. To me that is what NPOV means. ~ P-123 (talk) 22:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 I really do not understand what you mean when you say: It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". Of course it is. Caliphate is an extremely loaded term. Please justify that your view that it is a fact that 'SIL, a group that many consider to be unIslamic, is a caliphate. Still such a view should only be used in Misplaced Pages's voice if accepted without qualification in the majority of instances in RS. I personally think that, in addition, it should also only be used if it is found to fulfil the various conditions that are ascribed to the formation of a caliphate yet Misplaced Pages rejects this as OR. As it is we go on balance on what is used in sources. We don't push POV. GregKaye ✍♪ 03:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Please see: Results from (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "not a caliphate" and WP:YESPOV "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts....". Please also note that 'SIL do not just claim to be "a caliphate" but the caliphate within the context of our time. They fight people who also have a Mohammedan based faiths and these people contest the groups claimed religious authority with bullets. Under the guidance of WP:NPOV we can't pick a side. See image above. In the presentation of article content no editor should side with one POV. GregKaye ✍♪ 03:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

The full quote from WP:YESPOV is: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements." Which reliable sources make conflicting assertions about ISIL, being a caliphate, Islamic state, etc? All reliable sources speak out unanimously against ISIL and its claims. P-123 (talk) 10:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 I agree that reliable sources speak out against "ISIL" and its claims. As you know the majority of the times in which RS mention this group in conjunction with the word caliphate, they also relate it with word and phrases like declared, proclaimed, so-called or claimed amongst others. They do much as we do. 'SIL's claim of authority over Muslims worldwide has been roundly rejected by Muslims worldwide. In views of the example of RS and of Muslim opinion it would be a gross violation of NPOV to declare, in an unqualified way, the group as caliphate. GregKaye ✍♪ 19:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

But following RS on this is following opinion, isn't it? Surely WP should say "This is the fact, but RS sources question it", shouldn't it? To keep strictly NPOV? P-123 (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 In the lead we state the fact, as reported, that "On 29 June 2014, the group proclaimed a worldwide caliphate". We declare this fact, in this case through the use of the root word "claim", in much the same way as is done in RS. Caliphate is not just a word like dictatorship. There are far wider implications of its use. This is an area that is open to research and I would be interested in findings. I'd suggest a start might be via Scholar: (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND caliphate AND theology or just caliphate AND theology. (The neutrality of sources should also be checked where possible with regard to such things as academic critique). I do not think that we should merely rubber stamp the things that 'SIL are saying. However, if we were to do this then it imperative that we are clear on the implications of what we are saying. In the meantime it seems clear to me that the groups claimed authority over the Islamic world (which includes people that they are fighting) is not being widely accepted.

None-the-less, sources that Misplaced Pages labels as RS remain as our guide. If the majority of RS sources accept the group as being caliphate without giving qualification to the statement then fair enough. If not then we cannot push a POV. GregKaye ✍♪ 03:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)]

To say that stating facts as facts is pushing POV turns all logic and reason on its head and is ludicrous, IMO. No amount of words will persuade me otherwise. I cannot understand why all this has to be made so complicated. WP has to state facts neutrally and RS should be used to show what the world thinks of those facts. That is the way WP normally operates. Why should a big exception to this rule be made here? P-123 (talk) 08:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye says, "I really do not understand what you mean when you say: It is not for Misplaced Pages to decide whether facts are "true". Of course it is." I cannot believe I have just read that, after all the many discussions among editors about what a Misplaced Pages article is. For the umpteenth time: Wikipaedia is an encyclopaedia. An encyclopaedia is principally a compendium of facts. It reports the controversies about those facts. Wikpedia is not a history-book. A history-book principally interprets events and facts. Deciding whether facts are "true", i.e. interpretation, is the domain of history-writing, not encyclopaedias. If this very simple distinction cannot be grasped, there really is no hope for this article making it as good encyclopaedic content. For the nth time, Wikipaedia states facts. The fact is that ISIL proclaimed a caliphate on 29 June 2014 and has renamed itself the Islamic State, thereby setting up an Islamic state. Those facts should be reported as facts. The near universal rejection of the newly-set up caliphate and Islamic state, as not being a "true" caliphate, is ;a judgment on that fact, and should be reported by Misplaced Pages as just that, a judgment, with Reliable Sources to back up that judgment. This is the umpteenth restatement of this principle, and I cannot believe it is still not getting through. P-123 (talk) 14:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye also says, "Please justify your view that it is a fact that 'SIL, a group that many consider to be unIslamic, is a caliphate." That is easy. Because in June they established themselves as a caliphate: fact. It was a news item, a fact, an event. Any judgment on whether it is a true caliphate is secondary to this being the basic fact. P-123 (talk) 17:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 One thing that I think is a very true statement is that a judgement would need to be made to be made to decide whether it is a true caliphate. If it isn't a true caliphate then Misplaced Pages cannot declare in Misplaced Pages's voice that it is a caliphate. All we can do is state the clear facts. The group declared themselves as caliphate and this declaration was reported in secondary sources. The fact remains that, when RS talk about 'SIL in reference to the word caliphate, they typically do so with some form of qualification such as declared or similar.

'SIL declared themselves as caliphate. So what? Misplaced Pages only uses WP:PRIMARY sources in situations in which claims have been substantiated and verified within secondary sources that are proven to be reliable. I could declare myself Pope but this would not mean that I was Pope. There is only one Pope. There is only meant to be one caliphate. Is that 'SIL? We may all have our opinions but as far as the making of direct statements to say either that 'SIL definitely is not caliphate or that 'SIL definitely is caliphate - this is not for you, me, editors or the group to decide. Within editing we have to see which claims are substantiated and verified and which claims are unsubstantiated and unverified. Its only the first category of content that we state to be factual in Misplaced Pages's voice and this, only if uncontested. Content comes from what here are called reliable sources. Many journalists use qualification when describing 'SIL in terms of caliphate and they do this even though, I suspect, many of them may not have had relevant theological training. To make a move to state in Misplaced Pages's voice that they either are or they aren't a caliphate we would benefit from strong neutral and unopposed theological comment as reported in reliable sources. So far notable comments given from Sunni as well as Shia believers is that the group are un-Islamic. GregKaye ✍♪ 18:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no need to complicate a very simple situation with those kind of arguments. The very simple situation is that ISIL declared itself a caliphate, a caliphate was established, it declared itself the Islamic State, an Islamic state was established. Those are FACTS and EVENTS. When Misplaced Pages announces in its own voice those facts - think of them as items in a news bulletin - for that news bulletin it does not matter what the world said. What the world said, "They are not a true caliphate", etc, is a judgment on those facts, is commentary. What the world said has to be reported in Misplaced Pages as what they are, judgments and opinions and commentary on those facts that happened in June. How is this very simple point so difficult to understand? P-123 (talk) 19:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not Misplaced Pages's place to discriminate between the differing views and see which are substantiated, which are unsubstantiated, and which ones to use for its own statements. That would be Misplaced Pages making judgments. That sort of discrimination is for historians to make, not encyclopaedias. Again, a very simple point. P-123 (talk) 19:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no need to go beyond established fact, that the group proclaimed itself as caliphate, and then go into opinion so as to state that they either are or aren't a caliphate. We do not do this in Misplaced Pages's voice unless views are substantiated. Otherwise it is nothing more than editor's POV. One way or another there would need to be substantiation from reliable sources. I suggest that the sources that we should really look to should be those of WP:SCHOLARSHIP. P-123 my arguments are based on WP:Policy. This policy, as and when handled correctly, presents necessary complications. We all work by the same rules and they should be followed with similar measure in all situations. GregKaye ✍♪ 08:33, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

At last. P-123 (talk) 09:19, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes at last. We don't use Misplaced Pages's voice to state that they are or aren't caliphate until this gets established one way or another. GregKaye ✍♪ 15:41, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I just stumbled on this: "Some radical Islamists have criticized ISIS for declaring a caliphate without first obtaining the unanimous consent of the nation’s scholars of religion. If Baghdadi is to be a caliph for all Muslims, then is it enough for him to obtain the consent of all scholars of Iraq and Syria – assuming that even this could happen to begin with?"

"In turn, a member of the Abdullah Azzam Brigades weighs in. He told Al-Akhbar, “There is no good in declaring a caliphate under these circumstances; it is something that has evil consequences, which means it is invalid.”" Source: http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/20378 . GregKaye ✍♪ 18:00, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Just like all the other criticisms of the caliphate, in the "Criticism" section. WP cannot pick and choose which view to follow. It should state facts, i.e. those events on 29 June. My point was clearly completely lost on you. P-123 (talk) 20:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

No nation recognizes ...

The article still asserts in the "Criticism" section, "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Whether or not that is true is not the issue, the issue is that an assertion like that in WP's own voice does need a citation, otherwise it looks like WP:OR by Misplaced Pages, which Misplaced Pages has to guard against. Can a Reliable Source be found to back up this statement? The wikilink to the diplomatic recognition article though useful does not help to prove anything, as it is only an explanation of the mechanism by which sovereign state recognition works. There was some discussion about this before and for the newer editors perhaps Legacypac could restate his reason for leaving this sentence uncited. P-123 (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Obviously this is linked to discussion #1 on sovereign states, which is why I brought it up. P-123 (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

a) its is an undeniably true statement - diplomatic recognition generally confers statehood and that is a big deal. No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise.

b) the US President sai it in an address heard round the world. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/10/statement-president-isil-1 4th paragraph. "ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government, nor by the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way."

c) Here is a legal scholor: http://warontherocks.com/2014/07/the-islamic-state-isnt-a-legal-examination/#_

d) When the head of the UN says “Un-Islamic Nonstate” why is anyone debating this?

Legacypac (talk) 17:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You say "its an undeniably true statement ... No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise." Absence of proof is not proof of anything. It is a classic logical fallacy. One cannot say something is true because it has not been proved to be false.You quoted Obama as though he were infallible on this point, but is he really? Has his department researched this? Whether or not, his statement could be cited to support the sentence, as the US's view on it. As for legal scholars, they notoriouly disagree on the interpretation of legal points! Ban Ki-Moon, again, is just stating the UN's position on this. The most that can approximately be said, using all those sources, is "Nations, international bodies such as the UN and legal experts do not recognize the group as a sovereign state". That would be accurate. I think the wording should be adjusted accordingly along those lines, perhaps with some more citations of the type quoted (countries that have specifically said this, for example) to back it up. P-123 (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac has asked me to remove my above response, but I think this is an important point. I do not see how his examples verify the sentence "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state". The way the idea is expressed at the moment is an example of WP:OR by Misplaced Pages, in my view. P-123 (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

As a move forward I have added the second link to the text as follows: No nation ] the group as a ]. A link was already made to Diplomatic recognition and there are other sources on this topic available. Misplaced Pages also has a list of List of states with limited recognition and I presume that it would be perfectly possible to check the situations surrounding changes in recognition statuses. P-123, can I ask the extent have you checked through the issues surrounding this subject before raising the thread here? You previously said to me that you thought I would doubt that "the cat sat on the mat". There is certainly no indication of state like recognition. Can you demonstrate a form of circumstances in which a valid form of recognition, if those are the right words, may have occurred? If you can do this then this would help your argument. There has got to be some form of substantiation in this debate or we may just end up pushing opinions. GregKaye ✍♪ 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

My main point really isn't complicated, Greg. This isn't a "cat sat on the mat" issue. Forget for a minute the question whether they are or are not a sovereign state. Forget my quibble about the logic. Just concentrate on the wording. "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Who says? Without a firm citation, WP does, and it cannot do that, per WP:OR. Either find some RS which say that categorically and report it accordingly, or rejig the sentence in the way I have said, with supporting citations. Am I making sense? P-123 (talk) 02:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Certainly we need a reliable source to express that sentence and as you know, we can't write our own conclusion and understanding from reading the sources. As P-123 said, "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state," needs a citation. But the question is that, what sources are eligible to say such a thing? Mhhossein (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

If a nation gave recognition to 'SIL as being a sovereign state then this, I think, would be an extremely newsworthy event. I think that there would be particular controversy amongst the Arab nations. Perhaps we can add a footnote to say something along the lines of "as reported". Any reader going to the list of states with limited recognition would look at an entry and be likely to say there are this many states recognising and that number not recognising.

The logical fallacy argument logically only goes so far. It may be difficult to say for sure that there is no masked intruder somewhere in an otherwise empty building. However, if the building was full of alert individuals with good communications or if there was an alarm system in an empty building then it would be obvious whether or not there was an intruder present. I think that the same is the case in this situation. (If it were a subject worth reporting we might even know whether cats were on mats. In comparison the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable.

For instance WP:OR states that: the statement "the capital of France is Paris" needs no source. Similarly I think editors can justifiably write that, for instance, the airplane concord is not in service or that no nation recognises 'SIL as a Sovereign State. We check the news and know that concord has not been brought back into service and that there are still no nations giving recognition. GregKaye ✍♪ 06:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye: You say "the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable." If it is, can we have some examples of countries or international organisations which have said they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state, apart from the US and the UN? Those are the sort of examples needed to back up this sentence (see below). I don't know how to search the web for this. How is it done? Don't want to keep asking you to do jobs we could perhaps do ourselves! I don't think for this particular sentence we need bother our heads whether or not ISIL are a sovereign state, do we? We just go by what the Reliable Sources say about it, i.e. "Country X says that they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state". No need for exotic cats on exotic mats in this particular instance, I think. P-123 (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This would not even be a debate except that ISIL calls themselves the "Islamic State" and asserts all other governments are void when the IS armies arrive. It is truly a crazy thing to say - and has been declared not true by POTUS, the UN Sec Gen, about 60 nations agreeing to destroy ISIL and by the legitimate governments of the countries in which they hold territory. The sources provided are beyond definitive on the topic. Legacypac (talk) 06:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is as simple as Legacypac says. Just a few more RS examples of countries that do not recognize are needed. As I said before, those along with the other sources Legacypac gave would be enough back-up, problem solved.

I shouldn't have brought up the logical fallacy point, as it was a red herring. I had little doubt "no nation recognizes", just took exception to the illogical assertion that because there is no evidence to the contrary, that must be true. Sorry to have been such a pedant about it. P-123 (talk) 09:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I certainly think that there is merit in the raising of the issue. I'd also broach the question as to whether the addition of a footnote may add qualification. An explanation of the permitted type of OR used may, I think show the extent of assumptions made. Yes I've mentioned assumptions and think that assumptions can fairly be made. For instance in an article on London Bridge it might be fair to say that there is a modern version of the bridge spanning the Thames and an assumption is that, since the writing of the article, the bridge has not fallen down. The "No nation recognises.." is dependent, at the very least, on press reporting. GregKaye ✍♪ 21:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That is what I meant by RS citations to back this up. Some reliable press reports that Country X, Y or Z does not recognize the group as a sovereign state. But I don't think any assumptions can be made here at all. P-123 (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Joint statement by 60 nations that they will degrade and defeat and will be "Exposing ISIL/Daesh’s true nature (ideological delegitimization)" .http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/12/234627.htm is approximately the opposite of diplomatic recognition.

One of the tests is "the capacity to enter into relations with other states" but when they captured Mosul, they took the entire Turkish consulate hostage - pretty much the opposite of entering into diplomatic relations. Legacypac (talk) 18:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't dispute the basic accuracy of the statement. It is just that citations are needed for it. I think that one is probably enough for the countries not recognizing ISIL as a sovereign state. P-123 (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no confidence that any nation would even give lip service to the idea of considering ISIL as a sovereign state. I wouldn't be surprised if Ban Ki-moon type comments covering the wider topic that they are not a state may have been used a number of times. To talk about being a sovereign states is an even more specific topic and I doubt that any government would touch it. GregKaye ✍♪ 21:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You have quotes from Moon and Obama - add the cites and move on. Or how about Abbotts quote about not dignifying them? Legacypac (talk) 05:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• Hear, hear. There are enough citations now. P-123 (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I am still unsure that citation are either needed or valid. WP:WHYCITE states: "By citing sources for Misplaced Pages content, you enable users to verify that the information given is supported by reliable sources, thus ... showing that the content is not original research". The No nations claim, however, is justified in effect as being verifiable content of a type not applying to original research objections which, as noted, comes in the context of Ban Ki-Moon and similar comments. Maybe, as an alternative, other related comments can transparently be added to the text. The only reason for the inclusion of the statement is that the group have called themselves "Islamic State". The article is just striking a balance in saying that they are not recognised as such. I don't object to the use of citations but think that other options are available. GregKaye ✍♪ 07:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Rereading the citations given above, the only quote that could support the statement as it stands is Obama's, and possibly the legal scholar citation. The rest are not close enough. But being exact about citations is not a high priority in this article, so it doesn't matter. P-123 (talk) 08:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

The new text given to replace "No nation recognizes ..." is: "President Obama said that, ISIL is not “Islamic” on the basis that no religion condones the killing of innocents and that no government recognises the group as a state," That does not accurately reflect what Obama said, it is very approximate and alters his meaning. But hey-ho, approximate is good enough for Misplaced Pages, isn't it? P-123 (talk) 22:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

RfC: File:Syria and Iraq 2014-onward War map.png not used to highlight Israel

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: History and geography Politics, government, and law When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

The map image, File:Syria and Iraq 2014-onward War map.png, is used with the following headings:

• Controlled by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
• Controlled by al-Nusra
• Controlled by other Syrian rebels
• Controlled by Syrian government
• Controlled by Iraqi government
• Controlled by Syrian Kurds
• Controlled by Iraqi Kurds
• Disputed territory or Occupied by Israel

The proposal here is to remove reference to Israel and the Golan Heights disputed territory from the map as an irrelevance to the topics within which the map is used.

Please respond with Support or Oppose

I propose that there is no relevance in the inclusion of Israel in the context of the articles in which the map is used. Israel are not one of ISIL's military opponents and they are not amongst the nations that have designated it as a terrorist organisation neither have they been a participant in the war in Iraq and Syria in 2014. If Israel do engage in the war then I think a highlighting of Israel would be fair but until then I think inclusion is questionable. Basically the proposal is that, while there are certainly issues related to the Israeli occupation of regions such as the Golan Heights, these are best covered elsewhere. I have not seen maps in RS publications make reference to Israel and I think that Misplaced Pages should follow the same lead.

GregKaye ✍♪ 15:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Support Any reference to Israel should be deleted, which means making the Golan Heights/Israeli occupied Quneitra gray.—SPESH531Other 20:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

In addition to supporting the removal of color in Golan Heights, after the outcome of this RfC, the following images should be deleted (or at least be agreed on not using, and leave them available due to their presence in talk pages/archives):

Comment: You're right, that Israel has nothing to do with Syria war. But saying just disputed obfuscates, that United Nations have condemned this annexation. It is irrelevant but what's the problem with mentioning the occupation? I suggest for clarification to use both (Disputed territory occupied by Israel)--Kopiersperre (talk) 21:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Within the context of the Syrian civil war, Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the war, and has nothing to do with the map. If Israel played an active and direct (indirect role would be like Turkey or Iran) military role in the Syrian civil war, then they should get a color. Israel is not a combatant in the war, and so Israel should not be shown. Adding another color to represent Israel also adds clutter to the map/legend—SPESH531Other 21:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: And to your comment about the United Nations and Resolution 497, if Israel, Lebanon, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Turkey all had different colors, then Golan Heights would be colored in the same color as the rest of Israel. The dashed border in Golan Heights should give enough information to show that it is a disputed territory.—SPESH531Other 21:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: "Israel should not be shown.".. Israel is already not shown. Golan is Syria, not Israel.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment: To clarify, when I say "Israel should not be shown," Israel should be gray like the rest of the countries. Golan Heights' borders are dashed, already showing a dispute. If a Syrian combatant held territory in Golan Heights, then it should be colored. But a foreign country (represented in gray) occupies it, so it should be kept in gray.—SPESH531Other 21:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Israel is already grey like the rest of the countries. The captions to the maps used for Syrian Civil War maps say "Military situation in Syria.", Whether Israel is part of the civil war or not, they are occupying part of Syria, so they are part of the "military situation in Syria".--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

If there was a page that said "Military Situation in Syria" that was not created for the civil war, then you may have a point. But, these maps are for the civil war, hence the name "File:Syrian civil war.png".—SPESH531Other 03:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

So how about this: We make the Golan Heights striped, Black/grey. And then we change the caption to all images: "Participants in the Syrian Civil War" - or something like that, then we can remove mention that Israel is occupying the GH, because it is not a participant in the Syrian Civil War. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that in images that deal exclusively with the Syrian Civil War captions on images should relate to "Participants in the Syrian Civil War". This is the only relevant content to the issue. There has been edit-warring over captioning. We can't let an area be given different colouration without an invitating continued disruption. GregKaye ✍♪ 06:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Oppose: Israel is not included in any of the maps above. The maps only show the military situation in Syria and Iraq. Golan is part of Syria and is occupied by a foreign invading country. So that should of course be shown in maps showing the military situation of Syria. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - we tried using the grey and brown striped for Golan Heights to emphasize the disputed area with the Syrian Arab Republic, in order to satisfy some users like Supreme Deliciousness, but it has just created more confusion and has not reduced edit-warring. Furthermore, Syrian Arab Republic doesn't control the Quneitra border areas (1967 cease fire line) with Israel any more, and considering that Israel is not significantly involved in the war - Israeli-controlled Golan should be made external color.GreyShark (dibra) 22:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

No I can support brown for Golan, but why cant it say in the infobox that brown is "Occupied by Israel" ? The 1967 line is not the border with Israel, the land to the west is part of Syria. Excluding it from the map mean "Golan is not Syria" Which is an Israeli pov and in violation of international community view. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Because Israeli military occupation and later unilateral annexation in 1981 has nothing to do with the ongoing Syrian Civil War. The Israeli-controlled Golan is not an arena of the war and Israel is not a belligerent (so far), so it should not show on "Syrian Civil War map" images.GreyShark (dibra) 07:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - there is no "Israel" in the original image, so why is this vote for? inclusion of Israel has widely been discussed at talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel and no consensus has yet been gained.GreyShark (dibra) 22:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: This discussion is supposed to be the final consensus (at least for English Misplaced Pages) on what the status of Golan Heights should be as shown in the maps.—SPESH531Other 22:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about only maps showing the military situation in Syria or also other Syria location maps showing places in Syria? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

About the two maps that include a white, gray, or brown striped Golan Heights that has to do with the civil war.—SPESH531Other 04:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Oppose The Israelis are less involved than others (namely the Americans and us Europeans, let alone the local actors), but have repeatedly bombed Syria. Golan Heights are occupied (inadmissible to acquire territory through war; bog-standard international law). Describing the territory as "occupied by Israel" is a simple statement of fact. In all honesty, what is the big deal here? All we're going to get, if we do as you suggest, is someone come along and say that Misplaced Pages is trying to airbrush Israel's occupation of the Golan Heights. If Israel doesn't want to appear on such maps, it could always withdraw from the Golan Heights. Anyway, for what it is worth, my view is that this is a non-issue. --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

YeOldeGentleman to clarify I personally don't know but I have not personally heard of military activity for a relatively long time. I agree that the occupation of the Golan Heights is morally wrong but think that these issues are best dealt with elsewhere. We have to present encyclopaedic content here. These maps are used relevantly in connection to the current episode of Sunni-Shia conflict and in relation to the warring factions concerned. I think that this is the central issue that should be addressed in content with no more than warranted distractions of other issues. GregKaye 03:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey, GregKaye. "Israel last bombed or otherwise intervened militarily in Syria" less than two weeks ago, apparently. This is by no means exhaustive:

Syria conflict: Israel 'carries out Latakia air strike', "believed to be sixth Israeli attack in Syria" in 2013.

Israel bombs Syria's Golan after blast, March this year.

Israel bombs nine military targets in Syria after ‘unprovoked’ cross-border attack kills Israeli teen, June this year.

Cheers! --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Support Supreme created the map highlighting the Golan in bright white and adding Israel to the legend to promote his anti-Israel/pro-Arab POV that extends to fighting over salads, the location of archaeology sites and names of Kurdish towns. He has been trying to push this map all over Misplaced Pages for months. Tenacious editing at its worst. Israel is not a combatant in the Syrian Civil War (any action has been very limited right on the border when attacked) and the Golan is not part of the conflict. However other gray countries - Lebanon, Jordan, KSA for example ARE involved in the Syrian Civil War with troops or bombing but are all gray. No one is disputing that Israel occupies the Golan Heights but the map is supposed to show which faction controls what part of Syria in the Civil War. Legacypac (talk) 02:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

When Lebanon, Jordan or KSA are occupying a part of Syria, we will ad their color in the map. But currently the only foreign country occupying part of Syria is Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

The map (added again for perspective) is used in relation to the activities of the militarily active factions in Iraq and Syria. We need to encyclopaedicly present relevant issues on the Sunni-Shia conflict which is the central issue presented in the articles in which the image is used. Israel is an issue relevant in many topics but not here. GregKaye ✍♪ 04:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Support The most that Israel has done in relation to the current conflict is, I believe, that they have set up a relatively small refugee camp. The fighters: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al-Nusra, other Syrian rebels, the Syrian government, the Iraqi government, Syrian Kurds and Iraqi Kurds, all deserve mention. They all have valid inclusion within the context of the "...War map" discussed.
I agree with SPESH531Other, who is a regular editor on these maps and seems to know their content: "Adding another color to represent Israel also adds clutter to the map/legend". In my view it offers no encyclopaedic benefit to article content concerned while presenting an invalid distraction. GregKaye ✍♪ 04:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Oppose I already said, that Israel is not involved, but that's not true. See May 2013 Rif Dimashq airstrikes, January 2013 Rif Dimashq airstrike and Number of wounded terrorists treated in Israeli hospitals on the rise.--Kopiersperre (talk) 08:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Other countries are doing airstrikes but on the map. Israel has not sought to control one sq ft of extra land. Turkey is taking in wounded too which surely does not make a country a belligerent.

Support We had a similiar discussion at Talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel. Mark Golan Heights grey (like Israel, Palestine, Lebanon etc.) as the Israeli occupation of Golan Heights is not related to the civil war but the general situation, though there has been some incidents there. However, marking Golan Heights with a colour such as brown here and mention it as "Disputed" like now is unacceptable. It is viewed as occupied by the world. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Support The dotted line seems sufficient to me to show that this is not a de jure national boundary. The colouring implies fighting, but the Turkish border, particularly around Kobanî/Ayn al-Arab has had far more fighting. Were rebels to try to reclaim the area, or have a major battle in the area, then I might reconsider. Everything else I have to say has been said above repeatedly.--Banak (talk) 20:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I assume this discussion effects File:Syria_and_Iraq_2014-onward_War_map.png, File:Syrian civil war.png and Template:Syrian Civil War detailed map. If so, an immediate improvement would to (assuming support) switch from using File:Syria_location_map3.svg to using File:Syria_location_map.svg in the Syrian detailed map, then updating the other two maps. Is there a map of Syria without the Golan Heights being highlighted.--Banak (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is for the two files and template. The file in the template does not have to change, it as easy as making the striped areas gray, we do not need to worry about the template. About the Syria sans Golan Heights, I'm not sure.—SPESH531Other 22:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    • To be clear, I meant the Israeli-occupied part of the Golan Heights only. --Banak (talk) 04:31, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

FYI, I have just taken a look through all the other language, parallel articles to the English article on 'SIL Of the articles that use the map at File:Syria and Iraq 2014-onward War map.png only the Tamil article added reference to the occupied territories in the context of this map. I left a link to this content for anyone who wants to join the discussion. GregKaye ✍♪ 15:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

This is instructive, the evidence suggests Israel is fighting Hezbollah/Iran in Syria, not Syria, confirmed by Jewish academic and Lebanese press. "Prof. Eyal Zisser, an expert on Syria from the Moshe Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University, told The Jerusalem Post..., “Israel’s policy is clear. It does not interfere in the war and has no interest to attack Bashar Assad and its army, or to topple the regime.” However, he said that “Israel took advantage several times in the past of Assad’s weakness and acted against arms shipments on their way from Syria to Hezbollah.”" Syria says Israel is helping the al-Qaeda terrorists-which makes zero sense. .Legacypac (talk) 20:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Oppose The map shows the current military situation in Syria and Iraq; the UN, and most countries in the world, recognize Golan Heights as part of Syria under Israeli military occupation, so that is relevant to the situation of the map. Furthermore, while Israel has not been a major player in the Syrian Civil War, they have attacked Syrian government forces several times, and there have been media reports of them providing low level aid to the rebel forces, so that is another reason to include them in the map. SJK (talk) 06:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• SJK The map relates to the 2014 military situation in Iraq and Syria. As far as I am aware Israel has not attacked the Syrian government forces was a relatively long time. The low level aide that you are referring to relates to medical aide given to war wounded. Certainly some if not all of the casualties may have been fighters but, the nature of wounds received, will mean that a large number of them will not return to active duty. Israel has no motive in antagonising the Assad regime and I think that it is likely that this is a PR move with the rebels. Israel is not involved in military activity of any relevance to the articles in which this map is used. I don't think that this map is an appropriate place to attempt to WP:right wrongs. As I see it the only thing that will result from a highlighting of Israel will be an increase in antagonism and a distraction from a Sunni-Shia conflict which also needs to be resolved. There is nothing encyclopaedic in the current context in a mention of Israel. Please alter your decision. GregKaye ✍♪ 12:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • GregKaye, you say "As far as I am aware Israel has not attacked the Syrian government forces was a relatively long time". According to the Washington Post, Israel attacked Syrian government facilities earlier this month, I don't think that was a long time ago. Given that Israel has attacked the Syrian government and its allies in Syria on more than one occasion, I don't think it is right to label Israel a non-participant in the Syrian Civil War. Their degree of participation is at the lower end of the scale, but it isn't zero. SJK (talk) 08:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• • • SJK Thank-you. Having given more attention to ISIL related issues I was unaware of this significant handful of attacks on the Syrian government. However I don't see that this information is relevant the majority of ISIL related articles within which the map is predominantly used and viewed. Israel is not raised as an issue in these forums. There are maps available specifically related to the Syrian situation in the Syrian Civil War and these maps can equally be used in the one relevant article use there. GregKaye ✍♪ 09:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

ISIS and sexual slavings

Why do we need six cites for this? There were six; I deleted four of them, then got reverted on the basis that "extraordinary" (whatever is meant by that) claims require "extraordinary" (i.e. "a great amount of") documentation. But what is this WP:ExtraordinaryDocumentation? Without wishing to sound like a pooh-bums, I only know WP:RS. It's no big deal—my only reason for deleting them was thinking it was overkill—but perhaps I might learn another thing about Misplaced Pages policy, procedures, or whatever, if further explanation is provided. That's all. Cheers! --YeOldeGentleman (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe the ref is to WP:REDFLAG aka WP:EXCEPTIONAL. The actions described are very extreme (enslaving and selling women and justifying it), so heavily sourcing the statements seems very appropriate. I was thinking about putting back the refs myself. Hope that helps. Legacypac (talk) 02:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Heavily citing a report is necessary for other editors to verify whether the cited reports are necessarily summarized and saved on the page , only recurring article references need be deleted.thanks--Jason Foren Daniel(talk) 21:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Should we add Israel to the list of coalition countries against ISIL?

See also: Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive 15#Israel should be added to the opponents' list

Israel is providing intelligence on ISIS to Coalition partners, according to a Western diplomat.

While a Western diplomat is a reliable source, the Israeli Ministry of Defence declined comment. Also, the Israeli PM said on CBS that “We are ready to support and help in every way that we’re asked, but these are things we don’t discuss necessarily on TV”.

So should we add Israel to the coalition countries list, on the section "Humanitarian and other contributions to identified coalition objectives". Felino123 (talk) 18:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

The Counter-ISIL Coalition is a fairly well defined group that includes a number of Arab nations. As far as I've seen, Israel has not been named as part of the Coalition, much like Iran has not been identified as part of the group. I really doubt that Israel would be invited in as few want to turn this into an Jewish-Arab conflict. I could maybe see listing Israel under Other Countries. Legacypac (talk) 18:26, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Two things - one is that Israeli role in the Syrian Civil War, including against ISIL has so far been minimal (see talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel). The second thing is that the "Jewish-Arab conflict" or more correctly the Arab-Israeli conflict has been the conflict between Arab League vs. Israel; even if Israel joins the Arab League efforts against Daesh (which is doubtful), it still doesn't make it an Arab-Israeli conflict, but something completely different - an alliance with Arab League against a third force ISIL (which is not fully Arab, but mixed ethnicities). In 2013, it was decided that the Syrian Civil War is not significantly related with the Arab-Israeli conflict, and thus an entirely different scheme of tagging and sanctions has been utilized (see ).GreyShark (dibra) 12:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

The group's original aim

The text of the fifth paragraph of the lead begins: "The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in Sunni-majority regions of Iraq, and after it joined the Syrian Civil War, this extended to include Sunni-majority areas of Syria." Is there any quote from the group itself regarding its original aim or is this just speculation? Why were they fighting? For territory? For statehood? For vengeance against or hatred (or similar) of Shia believers and/or of other ethnic groups? For the enforcement of Sharia law on wider groups of people? For a cleansing of the land? I am speculating here but (I am guessing) that whoever added the original text may have done the same.

Citations on the group's declared aims, if it ever made any, would be appreciated. For now I have edited so as to place the "Sunni-majority" reference within its relevant section and removed reference to the claimed singular aim here. GregKaye ✍♪ 11:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: This sentence you have removed was carefully decided upon by editors:

"The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in Sunni-majority regions of Iraq"

Gazkthul can put you right on the history of the group's Islamic state dream, but unfortunately he is away. There are several citations on this in the article which might help you on this if you care to look at them. I suggest you restore the sentence until this can be sorted out. P-123 (talk) 12:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123, what exactly do we know about this group? They promote various lifestyle aspects of Sharia law; they threaten and terrorise citizens so as to force compliance to their requirements; they kill people that they think will be a threat and they torture and kill people who refuse to comply and they have declared an Islamic state and caliphate. A group of Muslims could buy an island from a government in a way that in which the government renounced sovereignty and declare an Islamic state. Clearly, unless an Islamist agenda is being pushed, it may be argued that the other issues mentioned may not be necessary. We cannot crystal ball with speculations regarding the group's original aim. At most we may be able to quote members of Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād as to what they say that their aim was. We have difficulty in crystal balling their aim at any stage in proceedings. I think we are better off quoting what they say and what they do.

I've notified Gazkthul of thread and edit developments and have invited contribution here. GregKaye ✍♪ 22:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. Sources are needed for this. I think there may at one time have been an RS which backed up that sentence, even in the Lead. What about the other references in this article which back up that they have always aimed to found an Islamic state? (Don't be frightened of pro-ISIL bogeys, I honestly don't think there are any working on this article! You ask the right questions, but is the cat on the mat perhaps getting the better of you again? ) P-123 (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 When you mention anti-ISIL and pro-ISIL the only issue involved is neutrality and unless in response to another editor, these are terms that I have never used.

• Of course the only issue is neutrality. I never meant anything else when contrasting those two terms. P-123 (talk) 09:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Not just 'SIL but other similar groups may well have an aim to establish what they would describe as an "Islamic state" or what they would describe as an "(Islamic) caliphate". However to say that such was the aim of Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād would need confirmed citation. The fact is that the group have undertaken a wide range of War Crime type actions that are, by no means, required for the formation of either of the above. When there are citations saying that the group are targeting and killing the Shia, should we declare the groups aim to be the denuding of Shia populations? We can't crystal ball on these issues. We are not thought police. We can only present facts. GregKaye ✍♪ 08:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• GregKaye: I am not clear why you are making these points. It has already been decided that citations have to be found. I had an exchange with Gazkthul about this some time ago; the matter has to be taken up with him on his return. He is very knowledgeable about the history groups like ISIL as you probably know. Observation: your constant return to the iniquities of ISIL, brought in at every possible opportunity, is very telling about your attitude towards editing this article, IMO. P-123 (talk) 09:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 It is fine to raise question of motive but I find it curious, when you have repeatedly protested against perceived "thought police" on instance when the content of your edits have been challenged, that you raise this type of issue here.

The first point I made was in reply to your mention of pro-ISIL bogeys. I responded.

The iniquities of ISIL are a major topic in relation to the group. In relation to article content there have been what you have described to be surreptitious attempts to edit the article which have had the effect to remove critical content; There are currently attempts to declare in Misplaced Pages's voice that the group are (Islamic) caliphate despite several "facts": that the claimed authority of the group is extremely widely disputed; that they are widely regarded to be un-Islamic; that, when RS use the word caliphate in connection to this group, they typically qualify the use of the term and that other groups with similar but less extreme claims to Islam are fighting against them. Accurate heading descriptions in relation section content have been disputed. I think that various issues are being pushed in the article and that they are telling, IMO.

Thanks for mentioning the point about other references in this article. I was interested to see a primary source text dating back to 2005 (in the goals section) in which the establishment of a caliphate is mentioned 6 times and state is mentioned (in the context of becoming one) is mentioned 4 times. There is also an interesting justification of slaughter amongst other things. The Shia are mentioned 19 times. Again I have to wonder whether the aim was to build a "caliphate" or destroy the Shia. What do you think? GregKaye ✍♪ 10:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• (The big difference is that I never tell you what to think, Greg! Perhaps you don't realise you do this ... . That has been on our Talk pages, not here, and has not been in connection with challenged edits. You must be careful not to misrepresent, though I believe (hope) this was accidental.) P-123 (talk) 11:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• (Ah, diktats! My only wish is to stick to NPOV (as I understand it to be) and if it looks like being pro-ISIL I cannot help that. ) P-123 (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: I am a bad person to ask as I don't know too much about it, but I would say the aim was to do both. It is alien to our way of thinking, but I can see how for groups that seem to think like ISIL do those goals would not be incompatible. (One of the big problems in understanding ISIL, I think, and much of the Middle East for that matter is that the mindset is so completely different from the Western one. Sorry, this is not a WP:FORUM.) I am puzzled why that 2005 letter you refer to is cited in support of ISIL's caliphate/Islamic state dream, because I don't think it is from a member of ISIL (in a former incarnation) at all. I looked it up before and I think the person who wrote that letter, Abu Muhammad, is Ayman al-Zawahiri from al-Qaeda. That name is listed in the wiki article on him as one of his aliases. P-123 (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Ham fisted lead

The lead is getting wordy with too many "also"s and lots of qualifiers. Perhaps we cut down to"The ISIL" is a "X", a (insert short desription here). It is commonly referred to in Arabic as "Y". It has proclaimed itself as caliphate refered to as "Z"" GraniteSand (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

• Re: "X" I would suggest changing "extremist, jihadist" to "Islamist" as per search results in news:

(isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND Islamist gets "About 1,100 results"

(isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND extremist gets "About 839 results"

(isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND jihadist gets "About 842 results"

I don't know of any objections to the group being described as Islamist.

Re: caliphate, other groups including al-Qaeda, the al-Nusra Front and various Kurdish groups that all hold predominantly to Islam based doctrines do not regard the group as caliphate. I think that the article should focus on what the group is and on its history without unnecessary focus being placed on its contested claims. Issues relating to the groups claim as caliphate are dealt with extensively in the fifth paragraph. I do not think that we should present a ham fisted preferential treatment between groups. GregKaye ✍♪ 10:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

• I think I speak for all editors if I say, "Oh no, here we go again!" The Lead has been discussed at great length by editors, analysed, quartered, diced, reconstituted, so many times. Pity the poor reader, who has been getting a different version of the Lead nearly every other week day, for months and months. An encyclopaedia that cannot make up its mind is a very bizarre thing. Gregkaye seems to be wanting to raise the vexed "jihadist" wording again, first raised by him at the beginning of October. I don't think there will ever be an end to this if matters are allowed to take their course. P-123 (talk) 11:29, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Stability in lead content would be advantageous. All the same it is better that editors raise changes to the lead here rather than just making changes without consultation.

P-123 That was what I wrote until I ran into edit conflict with your personalised redaction above. Given the context of the last three bids to change the lead, presented here, here and here were all proposed by you; that you have significantly supported my proposals re jihadism and that the comments above relate to clear prevalence of use in reliable sources I find this criticism quite surprising. GregKaye ✍♪ 12:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: My proposals led to a consensus (not always in my favour) and I believe those agreed changes should now not be altered. As you know, I supported a link attached to "jihadist", not removal of the word. You say, "I would suggest changing "extremist, jihadist" to "Islamist"", opening up the whole "jihadist" debate again, which was very disruptive and led to your AN/I at the end of October. No editor agreed with you on the removal of the word "jihadist" and now you raise removing it again. The AN/I was inconclusive and Gregkaye received no sanction. ~ P-123 (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

TY P-123, yep I got away with that one, joking. It is certainly true that I was certainly soapboxing in the initial thread on the issue but on a subject that I thought had significant importance. Amazingly, even though the terminology "Islamist" was mentioned a number of times in the debate, the word itself was never suggested as an alternative description. With reference to the actual usage of words it is clear that Islamist is the more commonly used term in relation to the group. I think the description fits. Reference to earlier threads on this topic will demonstrate difficulties surrounding the description "jihadist" but I think that "Islamist" ticks all the boxes.

Digression, P-123 and I have also been known to disagree on a number of subjects but, to his/her great credit, during the difficult time of the AN/I s/he gave a generous, supportive communication lifeline within Misplaced Pages. I felt this to be a difficult time and the contact was appreciated. I think that this represents something that goes way beyond the standards of good practice in situations in which editors are being called to account. GregKaye ✍♪ 23:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

In the previous thread you said, "For now I have edited so as to place the "Sunni-majority" reference within its relevant section and removed reference to the claimed singular aim here." Now you say, "All the same it is better that editors raise changes to the lead here rather than just making changes without consultation." Please make up your mind! P-123 (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that WP:guidelines apply to different extents to different issues, The way I see it is that some things are debatable on issues such as, "do we put this content into the lead". In other cases I think that there are issues on which Misplaced Pages guidelines present a clearer level of guidance on a choice to be taken. My personal view is that, in these situations, WP:BOLD changes may be more validly made. GregKaye ✍♪

The lead rightly notes the complexity of DAESH, from its illogical claims, un islamic actions, to multitude of names. If the OP has specific wording, post it up for comment. Legacypac (talk) 19:25, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Btw, my earlier comments were not intended to shut down debate. Newer editors need to know the background to the "jihadist" debate, that is all. P-123 (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Re: Newer.. Why? All older and newer editors "need to know" is the topic of a debate. If at this stage you want to paint pictures of long past disruption I suggest that you add balanced comment on the various sides of the story. You very well know that I backed away from debates of my own volition despite what one administrator described as bad faith contributions within the threads. You also know that my proposal here is something new and not before mentioned. I take exception to argumentative wording "here we go again", "bizarre", "vexed" and "ever be an end". It would have been nice if the proposal had been able to run its course without being unduly and disruptively prejudiced against from the start. I would not like to "mirror" this raising of past issues in this way. I wonder how editors past would regard these approaches. GregKaye ✍♪ 17:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• I imagine they would agree with me. We all opposed your wish to remove "jihadist". The link I gave earlier to Talk page discussion on this, and the links from that discussion, demonstrate it very clearly. Yours is hardly a new proposal. You still wish to remove "jihadist", the common RS descriptor for groups of this type. P-123 (talk) 20:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Please read carefully the above and related texts. Granite sands has proposed using a short description and I have highlighted the fact that the most common descriptor for groups of this type is "Islamist". This is also true for groups like al-Qaeda and other Islamist groups for which I have done similar checks as above. My original proposal (very briefly held) was to exchange "jihadist" (in relation to a group very disputably following jihad) for "extremist". When objection to this proposal was raised I responded and moved to an adapted proposal to make sure that qualification was given to the use of that jihadist terminology. Now it turns out that "Islamist" is the most common descriptor. The proposal raised here is new. Please do not evoke imaginary support. If support is given one way or another then fair enough. Please do not prejudice against an argument in the way that you have. If you can present that Islamist is less of a commonly used descriptor than jihadist in relation to this group then present your case. GregKaye ✍♪ 07:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye: I have read them. I am not trying to pick holes, but what search terms did you use for those Google results? Are they results from Reliable Sources? Apart from al-Qaeda, which other groups did you get similar results for? A survey of this sort (or any sort) is only as good as the questions asked. (An observation: for an editor to say criticism is disruptive and prejudices argument says an awful lot; it strongly suggests that editor is unable to take criticism.) P-123 (talk) 08:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The "put up or shut up" attitude is needlessly aggressive. I made an unambiguous suggestion for a clean up of the lead, which everyone else seems to follow. What are you confused about? GraniteSand (talk) 10:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

GraniteSand, I am sorry that you feel that way although it may also be argued that the introduction of a thread with the wording "Ham fisted.." is also quite aggressive. Please also review your edit above in terms of aggression.

The truth is that references to caliphate as associated to 'SIL are far from dominant within general reporting which is demonstrated in the following search of news:

• (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND caliphate gets "About 806 results" in news.

A mention of caliphate in the opening paragraph of the lead has only recently been added (without agreement) and, as I have mentioned, the claim is very widely "contested". The result of the previous discussion on lead content here supported the return of the "unrepresentative of Islam" statement back into the second paragraph of the lead. If the group's claim as caliphate is to be placed into the lead's first paragraph, then an increased need is raised for counter claims (as raised within the wider Islamic world) to be returned to the second paragraph. GregKaye ✍♪ 11:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I dropped caliphate from the first paragraph and fixed it up. Some weird markup made several of the widely used terms including DAESH completely invisible. I don't think we can make it much more compact and still include the names commonly used by the media - ISIL, ISIS (which comes from two translations), DAESH, and "Islamic State"/"IS" which is usually qualified somehow. Legacypac (talk) 19:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow. The amended second paragraph now says very loud and clear: "We, the editors of this article, are very critical of ISIL. Look what has been said about it. We are right to be." Not exactly NPOV, is it? P-123 (talk) 21:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Why not throw in for good measure, "Over 60 countries are directly or indirectly waging war against ISIL", from the end para? P-123 (talk) 21:47, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

My, it has been done! The Lead now shows profound anti-ISIL POV and sets the tone for readers of this article. Whatever happened to WP:NPOV, one of the WP:FIVEPILLARS upon on which Misplaced Pages was founded? Are the current ISIS editors uninterested in upholding them any more?

I like the suggestion of moving that sentence up (now wikilinked to the appropriate section) I don't think that the lead inaccurately deals with the global condemnation of DAESH, in fact it is really light on the topic. WP:NPOV "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". If the article was to really be fair and proportional it would be 99% critical of DAESH. Legacypac (talk) 23:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

While I agree that the criticisms facts have to be summarized in the Lead, as they are a major feature dealt with in the article, the condemnatory tone here in the Lead I think is too strong. The article on al-Qaeda manages to be completely neutral in the Lead and there are as many criticisms of al-Qaeda as there are of ISIL. There needs to be a more neutral way of describing these criticisms. An anti-ISIL bias in the Lead at the moment is very strong. One way to make the Lead more neutral would be to move the second paragraph to the end of the Lead. I think in fact this is why that paragraph was moved to the end in the first place, and it has slowly moved back up, which began with my moving up some parts of it to the top. (See Archive ##22 "Bold change of para order in Lead".) I did express doubts about what I had done at the time, because it has led to bias; I now think I made a mistake and am sorry I did it. P-123 (talk) 07:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: When adding your comment above you deleted my accidentally unsigned comment, which I have restored. I imagine this was a mistake. P-123 (talk) 07:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC) Yup - never saw it Legacypac (talk) 07:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

You should regret your last post P-123. Nothing in the paragraph is criticism (the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes) but hard verifiable facts.

Right now it says: "The United Nations has held ISIL responsible for human rights abuses and war crimes, and Amnesty International has reported ethnic cleansing by the group on a "historic scale". (Section 4) The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Indonesia, Canada, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, India, the UAE, and Egypt. (Section 3) ISIL's actions have been widely criticized around the world (very weak part Section 5), with many Islamic communities judging the group to be unrepresentative of Islam. (Section 5) Over 60 countries are directly or indirectly waging war against ISIL." (part of Section 7) = 4 sentences dealing with 4 sections in a factual summary kind of way. "Neutral" is not the goal of NPOV - fair and proportional without bias reflecting significant views in RS is the goal. The proclamation of caliphate paragraph in the lead lacks any balance right now - no line that anyone opposes it.

I'd say AQ look like Boy Scouts compared to ISIL, committing a fraction of the total killings and few of the other war crimes documented to have been committed by ISIL. Between 1992 and 2008 the AQ terrorist network perpetrated 31 attacks with a toll of more than 4,400 lives outside Iraq and Afgahnistan June-Sept 2014 5,500 killed in Iraq only by ISIL (plus Syria!). Legacypac (talk) 07:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: Finesse it how you like, that paragraph displays anti-ISIL POV. The facts should be there, but everything is in how they are presented. That presentation does not show a neutral point of view. WP:NPOV says, "All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Bias is there. As for "'Neutral' is not the goal of NPOV", that beggars belief. P-123 (talk) 08:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no bias (look up the meaning). See WP:OUTRAGE. You did not identify an incorrect fact, or what is opinion. Instead you seem to be arguing for the fun of arguing instead of presenting a credible alternative. Legacypac (talk) 09:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Again, you are failing to understand, I think because you do not recognise recognise bias here. Of course those are all facts (except the criticisms sentence, obviously). Can you really not see that presenting them so prominently in the Lead, on its second breath, sets a tone of criticism from WP? That is the only thing I am concerned about. I have already presented what I think is a credible alternative: putting that whole paragraph at the end of the Lead, where it was originally, put there precisely to avoid this bias. I don't think you were involved in those discussions. P-123 (talk) 10:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: Like Gregkaye, you show a disturbing tendency to return again and again to how evil ISIL are. That must affect your outlooks on editing this article, and possibly prevents you both seeing bias where it exists, I don't know. P-123 (talk) 10:06, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Please see WP:NPA regarding your assertion "failing to understand", suspicion "you do not recognise", rethoric "Can you really not see..", judgement "disturbing". Please see WP:CIVIL. I have already mentioned the abusive use of "here we go again", "bizarre", "vexed" and "ever be an end". Please see: WP:IDHT. I view this type of interaction on talk pages to be unnecessarily aggressive and in contradiction to the aim of the collegiate atmosphere of which you have otherwise stated as being an ideal. Even in this thread things have progressively got worse.

This thread was started on one issue. I mentioned a related issue. You then weighed in with a range of content that made no direct contribution to this thread.

You presented the problem, '"Oh no, here we go again!" The Lead has been discussed at great length by editors, analysed, quartered, diced, reconstituted, so many times.' You were the editor raising many if not most of those discussions with some being baseless and with one clearly (had you checked) going against your own pushed consensus (as here) and yet with your admission of your breaking of consensus being deleted from the recent thread here. Your constant re-visitation on the same old issues comes to feel like an incredible waste of time. From time to time please let things alone. GregKaye ✍♪ 11:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

"ISIL's actions have been widely criticized around the world, with many Islamic communities judging the group to be unrepresentative of Islam." = very factual statement, not opinion. Your proposal is not fair or proportionate because you are seeking to downplay the main defining characteristics of the group, what they are best known for. If you are cognizant of how evil this group then you need your sanity checked because I know you've read the article a few times. 10:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Gregkaye has shut down this discussion by collapsing it. I have asked an admin if an editor is permitted to do this. P-123 (talk) 16:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Oppose main proposal as presented. The group's claim as caliphate are covered amply within the fifth paragraph of the lead and within the article both at appropriate points in the group's chronology. The article should present balanced content on the features of the group and not give disproportionate favouritism in presentation of religious assertions that affect surrounding Islam based communities. It is not a topic that is asserted strongly in RS. GregKaye ✍♪ 14:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

PKK forces in Iraq

It has been widely reported that PKK has taken positions in Maxmour and controls areas in the Sinjar area in North Iraq , but those areas are marked as held by "Iraqi Kurds" on the map, which is incorrect. We should either add PKK to the map as another significant force or to mark PKK-held areas as Rojava's, as PKK is a close ally to a more dominant Syrian Kurdish administration, and they coordinate their efforts in many areas.GreyShark (dibra) 12:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

The PKK (Turkish Kurds) are not exerting Turkish Kurd sovereignty over parts of Iraq, nor are they fighting against Iraqi Kurds, nor are the Syrian Kurds fighting against Iraqi Kurds with Turkish Kurd help. Rather they are all allies in this fight so it is inappropriate to show yet another side for the PKK. PKK should however be listed as a combatant in lists properly sourced.Legacypac (talk) 19:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Move toward DAESH term

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/we-are-helping-extremists-win-the-propaganda-war-in-syria-and-iraq-20141006-10qp82.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/18/politics/pentagon-now-calls-isis-daesh/index.html http://www.wam.ae/en/news/international/1395273411563.html http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-islamic-state-name-20141206-story.html

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