| Revision as of 17:58, 24 December 2014 view sourceArtw (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers9,475 edits →a modest proposal← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:18, 24 December 2014 view source Bramble window (talk | contribs)154 edits →a modest proposalNext edit → | ||
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| 100 years from now I'd hope that the reader would at least understand that there was a wave of death and rape threats against women in gaming. To dismiss that by watering down or pretending that there were two factions, both of which engaged in equally reprehensible conduct and to the same degree, we'd have to remove the facts as discussed by the reliable sources. --] 15:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | 100 years from now I'd hope that the reader would at least understand that there was a wave of death and rape threats against women in gaming. To dismiss that by watering down or pretending that there were two factions, both of which engaged in equally reprehensible conduct and to the same degree, we'd have to remove the facts as discussed by the reliable sources. --] 15:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :Except, unless you've been very sheltered and unaware of G.I.F.T. the narrative 100 years from now will be "it was normal in 2014 for ill-tempered young people to send disagreeable comments to each other. Certain professional victims made use of these threats to garner public sympathy, fame and all the benefits that come with this." Are you unaware that violent threats (generally empty and meaningless) are a normal everyday occurrence, of little note to people who've been online for a while? ''Because they are''. Spend 5 minutes on a lightly moderated site. "Violent threat made by anonymous internet user" is as meaningful a headline as "Two-legged man discovered". ] (]) 18:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :There are more than two factions, many of which are issuing threats based on mistaken attributions of who made threats in the first place. More and more RS's are figuring this out as time goes on.] (]) 17:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | :There are more than two factions, many of which are issuing threats based on mistaken attributions of who made threats in the first place. More and more RS's are figuring this out as time goes on.] (]) 17:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :"Attacks were mutual" does not even remotely reflect the situation. ] (]) 17:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | :"Attacks were mutual" does not even remotely reflect the situation. ] (]) 17:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
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Sanctions enforcement
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Let's get some things straight about reliability
I keep seeing a general sentiment echoed along the theme that Misplaced Pages policies on reliable sourcing mean that WP must privilege sources from commercial news outlets concerning Gamergate, or that Gamergate would not meet notability guidelines without the attention of commercial news outlets, and therefore the article must agree with news outlets that Gamergate is mostly about sexual harassment, that ethical considerations are minor or illegitimate, or must otherwise be generally critical of Gamergate. Such ideas stem from a superficial misreading of policy.
First let's get notability out of the way. News media attention does not itself constitute notability. WP:NOTNEWS Notability requires attention from reliable secondary sources, of which news outlets are a representative, but not the only kind. (Reliability will be further discussed below.) There are further criteria to meet for a news event to be notable. Description of criminal activity is not automatically notable. WP:N/CA A key criteria for the notability of an event is that it have lasting effects WP:LASTING. Contributors to the notability of Gamergate would include spurring Twitter to partner with outside organizations to contain harassment, Gawker Media's loss of millions of dollars in advertising revenue, and the FTC issuing new guidelines on disclosing advertiser affiliations. These things, and not national attention on Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and Brianna Wu, cause Gamergate to meet WP notability guidelines. (There are further requirements, which Gamergate meets, at WP:EVENT.) Once notability is established this justifies the existence of an article, but does not determine the scope of that article. WP:NNC An article does not need to limit itself to the aspects of the topic that caused it to fulfill WP notability standards. So, even if one persists in believing harassment to be the cause of notability, it does not constitute an editorial mandate. In fact, it is a guideline to avoid letting the aspects of an article that attract particular news attention and criticism dominate WP's coverage of the topic WP:BALASPS
As to the matter of what makes a reliable source, national news organizations are indeed reliable sources when it comes to the reporting of facts; however, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." WP:NEWSORG In effect, when not dealing with matters of fact news organizations are operating on the same level as any biased source. In WP's particular usage of the terms a source can be both reliable and biased, in that they are reliable reporters of a particular point of view. WP:BIASED As such, an editorial commentator would be reliable in reporting a fact, such as the number of tweets made with the #gamergate tag, but would not be reliable in the context of claiming the tweets were mostly misogynist. At best it would be reliable in reporting that the opinion exists and in identifying specific individuals who hold the opinion.
If an opinion is numerically preponderant, that may be worth noting that in order not to give undue weight to minority opinions. WP:UNDUE This does not however mean that editors must tacitly accept the preponderant opinion as true. On the contrary, editors have a duty not to endorse or reject a point of view WP:IMPARTIAL. If a point of view is a fringe one to the point that a population of supporters cannot be readily identified, then it can be justifiably omitted from consideration at all, but such a circumstance clearly does not apply to Gamergate. It would be impossible to carry on a controversy in which the opposing side cannot be found. Indeed, "In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space." The population believing that women should not be in the game industry is a vanishingly small number of anonymous individuals, so that point of view is rightly given no space in the article. The number of people advocating for ethics in game journalism is in the tens of thousands, easily forming a peer group to those who have written about misogyny in Gamergate. Therefore, adequate space should be given to describing ethics activism. Page space should be dedicated in approximate proportion to the availability of reliable sources, so criticism of Gamergate should receive a degree of preference in space. To reiterate, this is a preference in space, not content, and the space for the minority view must be sufficient that, "it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained." The minority section should also be unburdened by insertions of WP:HOWEVER.
Now, as to the sources that are available to support the minority view, they can be found among factual matters in mainstream sources, the grudging admissions of fence-sitters, and a few friendly journalists. As someone who engages in professional fact checking and issues retractions, TotalBiscuit fulfills the WP:VERIFIABILITY that underlies reliability. However, there is also an ocean of untapped content at KotakuInAction. Although Reddit is in general a "questionable source", such sources are reliable on the topic of themselves. WP:ABOUTSELF Consequently, there is a great deal of material about the membership, aims, and achievements of Gamergate that can and should be included in this article. There are limitations too of course, on claims that are exceptional or about living persons. On the topic of living persons, it should be noted concurrently that as a group of living persons the members of Gamergate are not due the same level of defense as an individual living person on WP, but the onus is on editors to use high quality sources and deploy statements of opinion judiciously.
At last, if I may wax philosophical for a moment, there is an objective truth to the situation that we can't yet agree upon. The numerical preponderance of secondary sources is mandated to influence the structure of the article, but we are not required to take the popularity of an opinion as part of the epistemological underpinning of all our editing. There are things we can know to be true even with a dearth of Misplaced Pages-ready sources, and let those truths influence our editing within the existing guidelines. What I know to be true is that there are tens of thousands of people in Gamergate who value and welcome the contributions of women and have no desire to silence them or drive them out. Every suggestion I have seen of violence or harassment has been condemned unanimously. They would gladly be partners against online misconduct with anyone who would engage them without presumptions of guilt, but the continual demonization gives cover and encouragement to those actually engaging in hostility. It certainly doesn't compare to the affronts that have been shown to women, but the sincere efforts of Gamergate have been maligned by the failure of WP:NPOV in this article, and that will be corrected in the weeks to come. It is my hope that incumbent editors will challenge new contributions, but in a spirit of cooperation, and without misapplying WP policies to stymie the process as described heretofore. Rhoark (talk) 04:59, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Call me pessimistic but I don't think you will actually persuade anyone, or at least established editors, with this particular long post. They will come out thinking the way they were already. Though, I must laud your effort, but I fear you will be summarily dismissed. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:28, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Responding to all of this at once is improbable, but to address one key point, KotakuInAction is never acceptable as a source in this article. You cite WP:SELFPUB apparently without reading it. In pertinent part,
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves ... so long as: it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities) (and) there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity.
. All of Gamergate's "aims and achievements" involve claims about third parties, and many of them are derogatory or defamatory. No self-published source is acceptable for such material. Furthermore, due to the fact that Reddit posts are anonymous, there is every reason to have doubt about the authenticity of statements made therein. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:12, 20 December 2014 (UTC)- As I mentioned, there are limitations, including on claims about third parties. There is ample material that does not make such claims. For example, from the mission statement: "We welcome artistic freedom and equal opportunities for creators and creations. We condemn censorship, exclusion, harassment, and abuse. This is a community for discussion of these issues, and for organizing campaigns for reform, so that the industry can be held accountable for its actions and gamers can enjoy their medium without being unjustly attacked or slandered." WP does not appear to establish formal guidelines for judging authenticity. Wikitionary definitions are "The quality of being genuine or not corrupted from the original" and "Truthfulness of origins, attributions, commitments, sincerity, and intentions". Use of a pseudonym does not in itself compromise authenticity by these definitions. Rhoark (talk) 13:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- "What I know to be true is that there are tens of thousands of people in Gamergate who value and welcome the contributions of women and have no desire to silence them or drive them out."
- Exactly what universe are you living in? Kaldari (talk) 08:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Rhoark: Above, you said that
there is also an ocean of untapped content at KotakuInAction.
OK, let's examine what that content is. Right now, when I look at the front page of KotakuInAction, the top three stories are an AMA with someone who wrote a story in which a prominent Gamergate target is raped, a claim that a prominent Gamergate target tried to have someone killed and a Simpsons mashup mocking "social justice warriors." Is that what you mean by "a great deal of material about the membership, aims, and achievements of Gamergate that can and should be included in this article," then? Shall we add a section to the article noting that "According to posts on KotakuInAction, Gamergate is about talking with a person who wrote an erotica featuring the rape of one of Gamergate's targets," as per your request? Somehow, I think you would be rather stridently opposed to that addition.- The validity of KotakuInAction as WP:ABOUTSELF does not mean that everything appearing there is WP:DUE coverage in Misplaced Pages. Rhoark (talk) 13:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- So what you are saying is that you want us to include material from KIA that portrays the movement in a positive light, but exclude material from KIA that portrays the movement in a negative light. That's what I figured you would say. You want to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for positive PR, and that's not what we're here for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, that would not be WP:IMPARTIAL. Material that reflects badly on Gamergate would be equally valid if it fulfills the same WP:ABOUTSELF requirements, and a case can be made that inclusion is WP:DUE. Judgement of what is due is complex. Rhoark (talk) 13:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- So what you are saying is that you want us to include material from KIA that portrays the movement in a positive light, but exclude material from KIA that portrays the movement in a negative light. That's what I figured you would say. You want to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for positive PR, and that's not what we're here for. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- The validity of KotakuInAction as WP:ABOUTSELF does not mean that everything appearing there is WP:DUE coverage in Misplaced Pages. Rhoark (talk) 13:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- The current Gamergate outrage-sea-lioning target is Jimmy Wales (not a journalist, by the way), who apparently committed the cardinal sin of calmly telling a Gamergate supporter that their rallying cry is fatally tainted by harassment and that their total lack of organization is a vice, not a virtue. Besides Twitter, there are also a slew of threads on KIA and 8chan endlessly declaiming the "corruption" and "unethical behavior" of Jimmy Wales. This is not an aberration, but an easily-observable trend — say something negative about Gamergate or do something Gamergate doesn't like, and you instantly become the target of all manner of wild accusations and crazed, utterly-unfounded conspiracy theories. Let's be quite frank here: that sort of nonsense is precisely why literally nobody outside the Gamergate echo chamber takes you seriously.
- Here's the thing. You can proclaim all day long what you want people to think Gamergate is interested in. Unfortunately for the credibility of your proclamations, it's not at all difficult to examine what Gamergate is actually saying and doing, and what this says about how much interest Gamergate has in actual issues relating to journalism ethics as opposed to tendentious culture-warring. The conclusions of reliable sources are inescapable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:46, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem, when saying just what one group, whether it be Gamergate, or anyone in general, stands for; is you open yourself up for a great deal of conflicting views, and in many cases data. More so if you take the actions of a few to be representative of the whole. When I was growing up in the deep southern United States, I experienced a similar gross generalization in regards to how people behave and or act. There, the common thread when people discussed African Americans, was less about what good they did, and more about the actions of a few bad seeds. The overreaching belief being that "Because a minority of African Americans deal drugs, are criminals, or are not productive members of society; then the entire African American race is the same way." By suggesting that the actions of a few members of any movement, which, as I said could be any movement and not just Gamergate, are indicative of the greater whole, you move away from seeking the truth of whatever that group stands for, and move more into the realm of stereotyping and gross generalization. In the case of the wiki article, you move more in the direction of a biased statement/opinion, and further away from the facts. Whether you (meaning anyone in particular) as a person agree with what they claim that their stance is or not, the fact remains that such opinion has no place in an article that claims to be reporting the facts and or history of the events. Kitsunedawn (talk) 10:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is a classic false equivalence, Kitsunedawn. Gamergate is not a human ethnicity based on fundamental personal characteristics. Rather, it is a loosely-affiliated political movement based around ideological goals and specific methodologies, which a person can choose to join or leave at any time. This means your analogy simply logically fails. It's a non-analogy.
- One cannot join or leave being an African-American, and the mere state of one's ethnicity can make no conclusion about the content of that person's character or their beliefs. Thus, making judgments about a person based upon their ethnicity is widely reviled and effectively deprecated.
- Being part of Gamergate is in no way analogous to the above situation. Affiliation with Gamergate is voluntary and self-selected, as with any political movement. When one proclaims themselves part of Gamergate, they are explicilty standing with and behind the actions of Gamergate. That is literally what it means to be part of a movement. The actions of Gamergate, as widely noted in reliable sources, have involved numerous false allegations, vicious personal attacks, vile harassment, bandwagon-jumping men's rights activists and fringe conservative figures, and all other manner of essentially unconstructive nonsense. When you wave a flag that says Gamergate, you're saying that you believe in, and implicitly endorse, those activities. That's what being part of a movement means.
- If I stood on a street corner and waved a flag that said "WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH," you would probably think me a homophobe. And you would be perfectly justified in doing so. I've just publicly proclaimed that I'm a part of an organization known worldwide for homophobic nuttery. Well, frankly, that's about the point Gamergate is now. The name is permanently tainted and poisonous, identified not with any "journalism ethics" issues but with toxic harassment and a misogynistic fringe. And the only way forward — if you really care about journalism ethics, that is — is to abandon the name and find something else to identify yourself by.
- As umpteen dozen outside observers have suggested over the last four months, set up a non-profit advocacy group that discusses video game journalism — staff it with identifiable people in leadership roles, have an elected board of directors to make decisions, put together a unified platform of realistic goals and reject crazy fringe bullshit, develop a code of ethics for gaming journalism, etc. That's the way forward to have a meaningful impact on video game journalism — not calling Jimmy Wales names on Twitter and whining about "social justice warriors" on Reddit. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:57, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for sharing your opinion, but as it does not pertain to the editing policies that are the cause of this thread, I will not engage further than to say you are welcome to deploy reliable sources to support your apprehension of the truth. Prepare yourself to accept graciously that the article will include reliable sources of another apprehension of the truth. Rhoark (talk) 13:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- As you are apparently new to Misplaced Pages, you may wish to familiarize yourself with our reliable sourcing policies, and you may wish to refer any disputed sources to an open discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, which is a community hub for discussion and consensus-building around the acceptability of sources for various claims. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- The text of the policies are sufficiently clear in establishing what is and is not permissible use of a self-source. If you have concerns about a specific use of a specific source, the RSN would be an excellent resource for you to consult before performing any reverts. Rhoark (talk) 14:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, they are QUITE clear. anonymous postings of self serving nature on a non official website are not even REMOTELY acceptable.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:50, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anonymity of users on Reddit is relative and variable. Most (but not all) users are pseudonymous, but even then meet the criteria of being identifiable, reachable, and trackable that constitute non-anonymity. Reliability is always in a context; some posts will meet guidelines and others will not. Information that merely has a salutary effect on someone's reputation is not on that basis automatically self-serving. To be self-serving also entails a disregard for the welfare of others. Rhoark (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- you really dont understand Misplaced Pages's reliability requirements at all, do you. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have supported my positions with specific policies and clear definitions. The opposition has been mostly emotive. Rhoark (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- AHHH the ever present "gamergate supporters are objective and everyone else is emotional" gambit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:57, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're still doing it, there. Rhoark (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mommy mommy he's emoting on my objectivity!!!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're still doing it, there. Rhoark (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- AHHH the ever present "gamergate supporters are objective and everyone else is emotional" gambit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:57, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have supported my positions with specific policies and clear definitions. The opposition has been mostly emotive. Rhoark (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- you really dont understand Misplaced Pages's reliability requirements at all, do you. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anonymity of users on Reddit is relative and variable. Most (but not all) users are pseudonymous, but even then meet the criteria of being identifiable, reachable, and trackable that constitute non-anonymity. Reliability is always in a context; some posts will meet guidelines and others will not. Information that merely has a salutary effect on someone's reputation is not on that basis automatically self-serving. To be self-serving also entails a disregard for the welfare of others. Rhoark (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, they are QUITE clear. anonymous postings of self serving nature on a non official website are not even REMOTELY acceptable.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:50, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- The text of the policies are sufficiently clear in establishing what is and is not permissible use of a self-source. If you have concerns about a specific use of a specific source, the RSN would be an excellent resource for you to consult before performing any reverts. Rhoark (talk) 14:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- As you are apparently new to Misplaced Pages, you may wish to familiarize yourself with our reliable sourcing policies, and you may wish to refer any disputed sources to an open discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, which is a community hub for discussion and consensus-building around the acceptability of sources for various claims. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 13:51, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem, when saying just what one group, whether it be Gamergate, or anyone in general, stands for; is you open yourself up for a great deal of conflicting views, and in many cases data. More so if you take the actions of a few to be representative of the whole. When I was growing up in the deep southern United States, I experienced a similar gross generalization in regards to how people behave and or act. There, the common thread when people discussed African Americans, was less about what good they did, and more about the actions of a few bad seeds. The overreaching belief being that "Because a minority of African Americans deal drugs, are criminals, or are not productive members of society; then the entire African American race is the same way." By suggesting that the actions of a few members of any movement, which, as I said could be any movement and not just Gamergate, are indicative of the greater whole, you move away from seeking the truth of whatever that group stands for, and move more into the realm of stereotyping and gross generalization. In the case of the wiki article, you move more in the direction of a biased statement/opinion, and further away from the facts. Whether you (meaning anyone in particular) as a person agree with what they claim that their stance is or not, the fact remains that such opinion has no place in an article that claims to be reporting the facts and or history of the events. Kitsunedawn (talk) 10:15, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Reddit is a forum, and forum posts are not reliable sources. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to agree on these lines; because of the lack of any authority we can point to, nearly every self-published GG document has no sufficient authority to be even acceptable under SPS lines. --MASEM (t) 16:33, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This has been thoroughly addressed. "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves". There are additional stipulations that have been noted. It is clear that not all, but some Reddit posts comply with the applicable guidelines. Rhoark (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- If it was the case that a person that we know was the organizer of GG and were assured of his identity posting at Reddit, yes, that's acceptable per SPS. But we are talking posts of identity we don't know to any degree, so SPS cannot work here. That's the problem with the lack of organization around GG, they have no information we can source from them directly. --MASEM (t) 17:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is why care must be taken to ensure a particular citation meets all the stipulations placed on a self-source. Many or most will not, but it is not consistent with policy to determine that Reddit posts are categorically incapable of reliability in an appropriate context. Rhoark (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Rhoark: There is also something that is slightly... odd about this article in particular. This is not an article on "The Gamergate Movement," and as such, items that might have been reliable and notable when talking about the movement itself may not be reliable and/or notable here. This article specifically is on the "Controversy" that surrounds Gamergate. I personally believe the article may need to be renamed or split into two separate articles, because it is trying at some points to be both. It attempts to define the "movement" and the "controversy" and it appears there are sides that have formed that have different definitions of both. Ries42 (talk) 17:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- any "split" is unlikely to happen, the "movement" as such is non notable outside of the harassment it has generated. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is addressed in the root of this thread. The movement is not notable on the basis of harassment or media attention thereon, but is notable for its lasting effects, independently of harassment. Rhoark (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:PROVEIT the ONLY "lasting" effects are harassment related -setting back the image of gamers 15 years as socially incompetent misogynistic trolls, making recruitment of women into the gamesoftware business near impossible, public debates about how social media needs better defenses against harassment -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:NOTNEWS WP:NOTSCANDAL WP:LASTING. Preeminent lasting effects are the creation of 8chan, WAM getting involved in Twitter, financial losses and reorganization in Gawker Media, and issuance of new guidelines from the FTC. Even if you disagree with all that, WP:NNC Rhoark (talk) 18:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Even the evidence that you are pointing to verifies the harassment. 8chan minor imageboard only notable as the base from which harassment emanated, the financial hit to gawker is temporary as the advertisers have all returned, and WAM for godsake is there to monitor harassment on twitter!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:22, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Some of the lasting effects are consequences of harassment, but it is still not the harassment itself, nor the news coverage of the harassment, that causes the topic to be notable. Rhoark (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- 8chan existed before GG anyway, and Gawker's revenues are up, and I know of no RS tying the FTC updating their website FAQ to gamergate, which is a pretty minor thing, we'd need RS for all of this to put it into the article anyway, not forum posts. — Strongjam (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources are certainly needed. This discussion is laying the groundwork for their inclusion. Rhoark (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is no "groundwork" to be laid for Reddit posts being acceptable sources in this article. Not going to happen. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:06, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sources are certainly needed. This discussion is laying the groundwork for their inclusion. Rhoark (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Even the evidence that you are pointing to verifies the harassment. 8chan minor imageboard only notable as the base from which harassment emanated, the financial hit to gawker is temporary as the advertisers have all returned, and WAM for godsake is there to monitor harassment on twitter!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:22, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:NOTNEWS WP:NOTSCANDAL WP:LASTING. Preeminent lasting effects are the creation of 8chan, WAM getting involved in Twitter, financial losses and reorganization in Gawker Media, and issuance of new guidelines from the FTC. Even if you disagree with all that, WP:NNC Rhoark (talk) 18:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:PROVEIT the ONLY "lasting" effects are harassment related -setting back the image of gamers 15 years as socially incompetent misogynistic trolls, making recruitment of women into the gamesoftware business near impossible, public debates about how social media needs better defenses against harassment -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is addressed in the root of this thread. The movement is not notable on the basis of harassment or media attention thereon, but is notable for its lasting effects, independently of harassment. Rhoark (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- any "split" is unlikely to happen, the "movement" as such is non notable outside of the harassment it has generated. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- If it was the case that a person that we know was the organizer of GG and were assured of his identity posting at Reddit, yes, that's acceptable per SPS. But we are talking posts of identity we don't know to any degree, so SPS cannot work here. That's the problem with the lack of organization around GG, they have no information we can source from them directly. --MASEM (t) 17:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm... confused. Why do you care @NorthBySouthBaranof:, @TheRedPenOfDoom:? I'm not saying I completely agree with Rhoark, but why not just let him do his own thing. If he can support the notability of the movement, let him. If he can't, then he can't. Certainly you aren't suggesting that if something could be notable, you should ignore it, correct?
- I think we all can see that the controversy surrounding Gamergate may be more notable than the movement, but that doesn't mean the movement couldn't be notable beyond that. Ries42 (talk) 20:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- If in some fantasy never never land where the "movement" actually does something that is noted beyond its harassment sure, it could have an article then; and if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well how can you personally determine whether something is notable? Do you have a crystal ball that you're not sharing with the class? Have you personally determined what is or is not going to be in this article? Why don't you stop biting and let Rhoark try to build his case, and once he's done, we can all as a group determine if his contribution proves there is WP:Notability. Surely, this is a contentious issue, so we need to keep an open mind. Ries42 (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone is welcome to present reliable sources here. Anonymous posts on Internet forums are categorically not reliable sources. Please see the verifiability policy, one of Misplaced Pages's five pillars. You can present non-reliably-sourced information here for consideration (so long as it doesn't violate BLP or other core policies), but do not expect that non-reliably-sourced information is going to be acceptable in the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're not making many people feel welcome. Ries42 (talk) 21:24, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Many people are not presenting reliable sources, but rather long screeds that categorically misinterpret/misrepresent policies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:31, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're not making many people feel welcome. Ries42 (talk) 21:24, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone is welcome to present reliable sources here. Anonymous posts on Internet forums are categorically not reliable sources. Please see the verifiability policy, one of Misplaced Pages's five pillars. You can present non-reliably-sourced information here for consideration (so long as it doesn't violate BLP or other core policies), but do not expect that non-reliably-sourced information is going to be acceptable in the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well how can you personally determine whether something is notable? Do you have a crystal ball that you're not sharing with the class? Have you personally determined what is or is not going to be in this article? Why don't you stop biting and let Rhoark try to build his case, and once he's done, we can all as a group determine if his contribution proves there is WP:Notability. Surely, this is a contentious issue, so we need to keep an open mind. Ries42 (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
- If in some fantasy never never land where the "movement" actually does something that is noted beyond its harassment sure, it could have an article then; and if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
| Discussion about collapsing discussion, not about improving article.— Strongjam (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2014 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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@TheRedPenOfDoom This is the second time you have attempted to use page formatting to stifle discussion on this topic. There is no cause for urgency in declaring any discussion topic to be closed or done, and if it is finished that should be supported by an outside party or a consensus of multiple participants. If there is something at RSN you feel has particular relevance, please link to it directly, as it is non-obvious. If no justifications for the collapse are forthcoming, it should be removed posthaste. If you decide to remove it, you may remove this comment along with it. Rhoark (talk) 02:02, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
About your Third Opinion request: I'm a regular volunteer at 3O. The request for a 3O in reference to this dispute has been rejected because it primarily pertains to a conduct matter (whether or not to collapse a discussion), not a content matter. 3O only handles content matters. For conduct matters consult ANI or ARBCOM. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
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Preliminary collation of balancing sources
This is a non-exhaustive, unordered, and unannotated collection of sources that may potentially be useful for correcting the lack of due weight given to minority viewpoints in the article as it stands. The initial slate is primarily concerned with chronologically early aspects of the controversy. It is being presented here for several reasons: First, as a parking place for the material while I and perhaps other editors deliberate best how to to incorporate new material in the article. Second, for dissenters to identify sources whose reliability they find suspect prior to inclusion in the article proper. (Reliability can only be fully evaluated in context, so seeking an opinion from the Reliable Sources Noticeboard would be premature.) Finally, as an aid to fact-based debate about what positions can or cannot be supported by reliable third-party sources.
All entries are published by third parties with professional editorial and/or fact-checking procedures, and so provisionally fulfill the characteristics of a reliable source. It may be that some of these sources have a "a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest" causing the provisional extension of reliability to be rescinded. Those would be useful discoveries at this point. Some sources may only be reliable as a source of an attributed opinion.
Presenting an position that is "widely considered by other sources to be extremist" can be cause for considering something a questionable source; however, such determinations should be deferred for the time being. The division between unpopular and extremist is nuanced. Exclusion on such a basis can form a trap in which a significant minority consensus is not given a chance to gain a foothold against an incumbent majority consensus.
Sources are not required to be perfect. As per WP:BIASED, "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." Finally, consider a the conclusion of /RFC1: "Here, the key is UNDUE and NPOV, which may mean we have to use some less reliable sources, but all for the benefit of the article in the longer term."
http://www.gameskinny.com/o3t09/depression-quest-dev-faces-extreme-harassment-because-shes-a-woman
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
http://techraptor.net/content/inside-gamejournopros-interview-william-oneal
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
https://medium.com/message/72-hours-of-gamergate-e00513f7cf5d
https://medium.com/@SvizraLion/everything-totalbiscuit-got-wrong-in-way-too-many-words-4df407e8113c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e78JRIHRjC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmIrWqEUUU
Rhoark (talk) 03:33, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:RS and WP:UNDUE blogs and youtub ranters et al do not get "balanced" against PBS, The Guardian, BBC, Columbia Journalism Review, Washington Post, New York Times, Australian Broadcast Company etc. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:36, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- None of these are blogs. They all have professional editorial staff. WP:NOYT Youtube channels may be reliable secondary sources if they can be traced to a reliable publisher. Rhoark (talk) 03:55, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have redacted the links which are obviously unreliable and make defamatory claims about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- None of the sources are self-published as claimed in your edit summary. Whether they are reliable and whether their claims are defamatory are at issue, and they should be available for discussion. Giving deference to the fact that they do concern living persons, I will leave reasonable time for you to make your case before restoring the links. Rhoark (talk) 03:51, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Restoring links to defamatory material in unreliable or self-published sources would be most unwise. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then its a good thing they are reliable third-party sources. Rhoark (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You would be wrong about that, and if you wish to find out from a broader community consensus just how unsuitable those sources are, the reliable sources noticeboard is thataway -->
- We are an encyclopedia, not a scandalmongering compilation of scurrilous rumors, innuendo, smear campaigns and unsupported personal attacks. I suggest that you review WP:BLPGOSSIP, which dictates that Misplaced Pages editors must:
Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Be wary of sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources.
Or, as the policy explicitly dictates,Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Then its a good thing they are reliable third-party sources. Rhoark (talk) 03:56, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Restoring links to defamatory material in unreliable or self-published sources would be most unwise. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- My findings on applicable policy are the following. By WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE anyone wanting to restore material deleted on BLP grounds bears the burden of proof that the material complies with WP policy. According to WP:BLPTALK it is appropriate to present material of uncertain quality on a talk page for the purpose of discussing whether it is suitable for inclusion in an article. By this citation, burden of proof is fulfilled. I did not find any instance where guidelines are established for citing non-defamatory material from sources containing other material that is potentially defamatory. That is likely to be a fruitful subject on which to consult relevant review boards. As to what constitutes defamation, WP:LIBEL defers to Defamation, which states in the lede that defamation must be false and is usually "irrational unprovoked criticism which has little or no factual basis". Exact criteria vary by legal jurisdiction. To legally prove defamation in the United States, one "must prove that the statement was false, caused harm, and was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement." A variety of rationale for why a statement might not be defamatory are listed in Defamation#Other_defenses Rhoark (talk) 04:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- None of the sources are self-published as claimed in your edit summary. Whether they are reliable and whether their claims are defamatory are at issue, and they should be available for discussion. Giving deference to the fact that they do concern living persons, I will leave reasonable time for you to make your case before restoring the links. Rhoark (talk) 03:51, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Many of these have been discussed previously. At a glance:
- GameSkinny looks unreliable. I don't see any author or editor credentials. The staff details on the Contact Us link has a "former editor in chief" and "former staff editor", but no current information. I would consider all of that quick fails for the required "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy".
- TechRaptor looks slightly better, but still unreliable. I don't see any author credentials. Plus, having seen the content of their other stories, I seriously question their reliability and reputation.
- Edge Online appears to be part of Future Publishing, which includes Mac|Life and Gizmodo. Probably notable, although it's very odd there's no by-line on the article.
- The Medium article written by Andy Baio appears reliable to an extent: my understanding about Medium is that they are similar to the Forbes blogs, where there is little to no editorial control. We'd have to be careful about BLP claims, but I didn't notice any at first glance. The other Medium article is a pseudonym, so no.
- Bright Side of News has been discussed many, many times before. They accept anything. Not reliable in the slightest.
- The Escapist is a reliable source, but it's an WP:INTERVIEW. All the normal caveats apply.
- YouTube is not a reliable source, even videos by TotalBiscuit.
- So really, there's not much here that's not already in the article. Certainly not enough to shift WP:DUE weight. Woodroar (talk) 04:26, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you; this is constructive. . That will be one to bring to the review board. Policy on YouTube seems to be basically that the fact something is on YouTube is secondary to whether the video originates from what is otherwise a reliable third-party source. CynicalBrit is not only TotalBiscuit himself, but also an editorial staff. He has a reputation for issuing corrections and retractions. The others you have raised concerns about, I will look at more closely. Rhoark (talk) 05:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- To discuss the redacted links:
- GamesNosh has existed for fewer than 4 months. The article linked features no actual reporting, only uncritical third-hand repetition of something from a blog filtered through Twitter, and it makes unfounded claims which have since been proven false.
- Breitbart is a categorically-unreliable source for issues relating to living people. It has a reputation — a horrible one. As our article on the site helpfully points out, the outlet has a long history of publishing hoaxes, frauds and malicious falsehoods in service of its political goals.
- TechRaptor is unreliable as per Woodroar's comments above. No significant reputation.
- 8CN is a self-publishing platform which permits effectively anyone to sign up and post content, as their website makes plain. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mindless Zombie Studios appears to exist solely to put forth a particular POV about Gamergate. No established reputation for reliability and fact-checking, and the owner states that
by being the sole guy owning and running this site, and trying to make something of this site, I am exactly the sort of person that should care and be active. So I've decided to put my helmet on, and go to war
for Gamergate. Yup, not what we're looking for in a reliable source. - NicheGamer is an article which simply uncritically repeats anonymous interviews, many of which feature defamatory claims about living people. We don't repeat anonymous gossip, and such is unacceptable as a source.
- As Woodroar noted above, there's no there, there. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, that's helpful as well. With the addendum that uncritically repeating social media is also the mode of operation for a lot of what more established media is cited for in this article. That is essentially the value of their inclusion, as the real activity of the controversy is happening on social media, while our hands are tied by the need for secondary sources. Rhoark (talk) 06:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- I would note that this search for high-quality sources cuts both ways, as a consensus has been reached that we will avoid citing oft-clickbaity sites such as Huffington Post and BuzzFeed, or Gawker sites except where they are used to source statements about the involvement of Gawker sites in the controversy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:14, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, that's helpful as well. With the addendum that uncritically repeating social media is also the mode of operation for a lot of what more established media is cited for in this article. That is essentially the value of their inclusion, as the real activity of the controversy is happening on social media, while our hands are tied by the need for secondary sources. Rhoark (talk) 06:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Did you seriously just redact a link to Breitbart as a BLP violation? Are we really going there?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:17, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Did I redact a link to a site that has a longstanding history of literally making shit up about people it doesn't like and intentionally editing videos to create fake scandals and hold people in a false light? You bet I did. There's a million and one reasons that we don't accept Breitbart-sourced claims, and it's helpfully right in our article about them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dude, you are actively editing the article to make them look worse at the very same time that you are citing the Misplaced Pages article as a reason for why they are unreliable!--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's because Collect weakened the true description of the issue which I wrote a month ago when it occurred. Collect's description made it appear as if it was some minor inadvertent error when it is actually a blatantly false story where the "error" constitutes the entire article, as the reliable sources note. You don't write an entire story which says some person is actually a different person and then dismiss it as "oops we confused two people." They initially left the story up with a correction appended to the bottom which amounted to admitting the entire article was false. If you want me to add more sources noting how fundamentally awful of an error this is, and how this points to a catastrophic lack of anything resembling fact-checking or editorial control at Breitbart if it means they can try to score political points against their perceived opponents, I'll be happy to. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- It isn't a "true" description, first of all, because neither source states that the entire article was false, mainly because the entire article was not false. The headline and part of the piece was wrong, but other parts appear to be factually accurate. More importantly, you are editing the article on a source to make it seem less reliable and then using the content of the article to explain why we cannot use that source. Do you not see the problem with that?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:55, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, TDA, if you write an article that is headlined "Loretta Lynch, Barack Obama's attorney general nominee, represented Bill Clinton during the Whitewater scandal," and extensively claims the aforementioned falsehood, yes, we describe the entire article as false. The very premise of the article is invalid. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:02, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're foruming about an entirely different article NorthBySouthBaranof, please stop. Bramble window (talk) 19:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should ask why TDA brought it up, then. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:40, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're foruming about an entirely different article NorthBySouthBaranof, please stop. Bramble window (talk) 19:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- If I may request, since you seem to have an issue with Breitbart, then you should take it to WP:RSN instead of using WP as a source for excluding it. Mistakes are always made, though if you feel that the mistakes and actions made by Breitbart are due to negligence or similar, then it would be easier to come to a decision there and not sniping here. The exclusion would likely have been ok, though I am concerned if the issue with Breitbart is due to Yiannopoulos. Either way, I believe that WP:RSN is the place for this and would recommend that if this becomes an issue that it be taken there to settle it. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:04, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are welcome to reopen such a debate if you wish. There's a longstanding consensus that it's unacceptable for living persons issues, and the burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate any change in that situation. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:18, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- If this becomes an issue, I am requesting you take it to WP:RSN to settle it. As I have said, the exclusion would likely be ok. However, if you wish to permanently prevent a source from being used for the future, then it must be taken to RSN or debated here. --Super Goku V (talk)
- Breitbart has been discussed at RSN many times—it's even being discussed now—and the consensus has always been that it's inappropriate for BLP claims. We have also discussed it several times on this page. At this point, if an editor wants to use Breitbart, then per WP:BURDEN they should be taking it to RSN to have it vetted. Think of it as WP:DRV for sources. Woodroar (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- If this becomes an issue, I am requesting you take it to WP:RSN to settle it. As I have said, the exclusion would likely be ok. However, if you wish to permanently prevent a source from being used for the future, then it must be taken to RSN or debated here. --Super Goku V (talk)
- You are welcome to reopen such a debate if you wish. There's a longstanding consensus that it's unacceptable for living persons issues, and the burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate any change in that situation. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:18, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, TDA, if you write an article that is headlined "Loretta Lynch, Barack Obama's attorney general nominee, represented Bill Clinton during the Whitewater scandal," and extensively claims the aforementioned falsehood, yes, we describe the entire article as false. The very premise of the article is invalid. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:02, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- It isn't a "true" description, first of all, because neither source states that the entire article was false, mainly because the entire article was not false. The headline and part of the piece was wrong, but other parts appear to be factually accurate. More importantly, you are editing the article on a source to make it seem less reliable and then using the content of the article to explain why we cannot use that source. Do you not see the problem with that?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:55, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's because Collect weakened the true description of the issue which I wrote a month ago when it occurred. Collect's description made it appear as if it was some minor inadvertent error when it is actually a blatantly false story where the "error" constitutes the entire article, as the reliable sources note. You don't write an entire story which says some person is actually a different person and then dismiss it as "oops we confused two people." They initially left the story up with a correction appended to the bottom which amounted to admitting the entire article was false. If you want me to add more sources noting how fundamentally awful of an error this is, and how this points to a catastrophic lack of anything resembling fact-checking or editorial control at Breitbart if it means they can try to score political points against their perceived opponents, I'll be happy to. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dude, you are actively editing the article to make them look worse at the very same time that you are citing the Misplaced Pages article as a reason for why they are unreliable!--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Did I redact a link to a site that has a longstanding history of literally making shit up about people it doesn't like and intentionally editing videos to create fake scandals and hold people in a false light? You bet I did. There's a million and one reasons that we don't accept Breitbart-sourced claims, and it's helpfully right in our article about them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Did you seriously just redact a link to Breitbart as a BLP violation? Are we really going there?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:17, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- As was said above, there's nothing about these sources that makes them noteworthy enough to include; using them would be giving them WP:UNDUE weight. WP:FRINGE specifically forbids using less noteworthy or lower-quality sources in order to 'balance out' an article. The basic fact is that while I know it's frustrating, Misplaced Pages's coverage is fundamentally governed by the consensus of the reputable mainstream media; if you feel that the mainstream media is biased on a specific subject, then you are always going to feel that the corresponding Misplaced Pages article is biased, because it's the nature of an encyclopedia to uncritically reflect the mainstream. Misplaced Pages is simply not the place to try and, as you put it, give a fringe viewpoint "a chance to gain a foothold against an incumbent majority consensus" -- that's just not what an encyclopedia is for. Gain a foothold for your point-of-view elsewhere and get the mainstream media to report on it, then we'll reflect that here. --Aquillion (talk) 06:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is one good point made here, that Breitbart's negative reliability and ability to be sourced shouldn't only have the wikipedia mainstream saying that it is. That's definitely conflicting with WP:NPOV and turns the fork onto Misplaced Pages. I did a quick search and could only find an answers.com where a user asked if Breitbart's site is reliable. The top response said no, and it's something I feel we know, but I feel like it would be easier to make the laughable few who do trust it to avoid fighting over whether or not there is truth to the statement by finding a reputable source that actually calls them out, regardless of neutrality. (As their mediums can say whatever they want. Just covering my bases for when someone tries to call out ambivalence.) What's that other news site that I've tried to purge from memory that posts all of the pictures of the photoshopped animals, like green cats, saying, "you won't believe this vitamin," or whatever? The real question is, on a scientific level and a neutral point of view, WP:NPOV, how can you flesh out the reason behind why Breitbart is not reliable without linking to articles cross referencing those with contradicting articles from legitimate publications? Also, I wanted to point out that it's hillarious that anyone could pretend there was a "mixup" on the two people and the site lingered. I know the publication process and how stressful being accurate and have your page perfect and correct is, as I've seen it first hand. An error like that doesn't linger, no. It's blatant fabrication.Chewbakadog (talk) 07:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Our definition of a reliable source is described in WP:RS. Breitbart, as far as I can tell, is almost a textbook example of a questionable source; putting aside whether it's generally-accepted as extremist, it unquestionably has a poor reputation for checking the facts. This means it cannot be used to source contentious claims about third parties. There is an important caveat, though -- reliability is based on the context, so a Breitbart opinion piece is, for instance, a reliable source on the opinion of the author, provided the significance of the author's views can be established using some other source. For example, we can cite Breitbart's Milo Yiannopoulos to illustrate his opinion in sections of the article that directly deal with him and accusations that he made, but only when we have cites from other sources as well to confirm that those accusations are relevant. --Aquillion (talk) 09:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Undue weight is not in the mere inclusion of a significant minority view, but in its presentation vis-a-vis more reputable sources. WP:DUE suggests a minority viewpoint may be a significant one if prominent adherents can be easily named. Via WP:FRINGE, "Just because an idea is not accepted by most experts does not mean it should be removed from Misplaced Pages. The threshold for whether a topic should be included in Misplaced Pages as an article is generally covered by notability guidelines." Gamergate ethics concerns fulfill notability guidelines in and of themselves, and notability is further confirmed by mainstream media attention irrespective of that attention being negative. As this is an article about a controversy, it relates to at least two points of view. By WP:DUE again, "In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space." Rhoark (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- None of the sources you've listed are prominent reliable sources; they are not publications, I think, that anyone here had heard of before this controversy; suggesting that they should be used as sources in an article that already has exemplary sourcing from many, many well-known mainstream publications simply doesn't make any sense. Part of the purpose of WP:UNDUE is that you should not simply dig up whatever articles agree with a particular point-of-view simply to provide 'balance'; rather, you should survey prominent reliable sources and cover what they say. The fact that your survey could only come up with a scattering of barely-known journals and a YouTube channel where someone self-publishes their personal opinions shows, I think, that the point of view in these things is WP:FRINGE, at least as far as reliable sources are concerned. If it were not a fringe viewpoint, it should be easy to come up with sources on par with, for instance, The New York Times, The Boston Globe, PBS NewsHour, ABC News (Australia), Wired, The New Yorker, New York, The Telegraph, and so on, all of whom have weighed in at length on this issue. --Aquillion (talk) 00:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Notability may be an indicator but is not a requirement for a source to be reliable. Establishment of non-fringe status requires identification of prominent adherents to the view, not coverage by notable news outlets. Regardless, the notion that there are legitimate ethics concerns has both of these things. This is not at all the same thing as the PoV that Gamergate is on the whole a good thing. Rhoark (talk) 02:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I still am not seeing it. There is an overwhelming consensus among prominent reliable sources that the GamerGate ethics concerns are either trivial or entirely without merit; and the sources you are trying to add to the discussion universally fail WP:RS for the numerous reasons named both above and below. This doesn't mean, of course, that there can't be a few public figures and talking heads who disagree (and we do touch on some of them in the article, when their notability is attested to by other sources), but it means that our article has to reflect the consensus view as described by the New York Times, The Boston Globe, PBS NewsHour, ABC News (Australia), Wired, The New Yorker, New York, The Telegraph, and so forth. Other views are clearly WP:FRINGE, and need to be treated as a fringe viewpoint, which means adding obscure blogs or news sites to push that fringe position is not acceptable. Note that simply finding people who agree with you -- even, say, famous actors or whatever -- does not make your view less WP:FRINGE; you need reliable sources, which virtually none of the people, blogs, websites and youtube channels you've mentioned qualify as. --Aquillion (talk) 03:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- There are two separate questions, which are whether an idea is fringe, and what its due weight is. A view is not fringe if prominent adherents (not sources) can be identified, and reliable sources have covered it (not agreed with it). The idea there are legitimate ethics concerns meets these criteria to not be fringe. Since it is not fringe, the due weight is greater than zero, and at least must include a descriptive overview of what the position is before describing the level of acceptance the idea receives in the mainstream. How much space is given is guided by the proportional availability of reliable sources supporting the various viewpoints. However, minority viewpoints are due more than strictly proportional space when an article is "related to the minority viewpoint", which is the case here. Rhoark (talk) 06:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I still am not seeing it. There is an overwhelming consensus among prominent reliable sources that the GamerGate ethics concerns are either trivial or entirely without merit; and the sources you are trying to add to the discussion universally fail WP:RS for the numerous reasons named both above and below. This doesn't mean, of course, that there can't be a few public figures and talking heads who disagree (and we do touch on some of them in the article, when their notability is attested to by other sources), but it means that our article has to reflect the consensus view as described by the New York Times, The Boston Globe, PBS NewsHour, ABC News (Australia), Wired, The New Yorker, New York, The Telegraph, and so forth. Other views are clearly WP:FRINGE, and need to be treated as a fringe viewpoint, which means adding obscure blogs or news sites to push that fringe position is not acceptable. Note that simply finding people who agree with you -- even, say, famous actors or whatever -- does not make your view less WP:FRINGE; you need reliable sources, which virtually none of the people, blogs, websites and youtube channels you've mentioned qualify as. --Aquillion (talk) 03:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Notability may be an indicator but is not a requirement for a source to be reliable. Establishment of non-fringe status requires identification of prominent adherents to the view, not coverage by notable news outlets. Regardless, the notion that there are legitimate ethics concerns has both of these things. This is not at all the same thing as the PoV that Gamergate is on the whole a good thing. Rhoark (talk) 02:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- To further this line of discussion, the elephant in the room here is the nature of the debate itself. If we were discussing a debate about which video game is better, or whose console is more powerful, or just about anything else, some of these sources might be usable in these relatively-inoffensive contexts.
- However, that is not the case. What we are dealing with here is a series of highly-defamatory claims about the personal lives and conduct of living people, supported by little more than anonymous gossip, screenshots, blogposts and third-hand Twitter posts — many of which have been outright debunked repeatedly by reliable sources. As WP:BLPGOSSIP states,
Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Be wary of sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources.
Policy dictates that we must write material about living peopleconservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.
In an article filled with high-quality reliable sources which have done extensive reporting on the controversy, if you require a self-published YouTube videos or four-month-old newsblog to support a claim about a person, it probably doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)- Reliability occurs in a context. These sources are not likely to be used for defamatory claims, or likely any claims that fall under the rubric of BLP. Proposed uses are numbered in a section below. Standards of reliability for non-BLP claims are much lower. Standards of reliability for attributed opinions are lower still. Reliability standards in general for sources on the minority view in this specific article relaxed for reasons I've reiterated several times. Rhoark (talk) 02:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- None of the sources you've listed are prominent reliable sources; they are not publications, I think, that anyone here had heard of before this controversy; suggesting that they should be used as sources in an article that already has exemplary sourcing from many, many well-known mainstream publications simply doesn't make any sense. Part of the purpose of WP:UNDUE is that you should not simply dig up whatever articles agree with a particular point-of-view simply to provide 'balance'; rather, you should survey prominent reliable sources and cover what they say. The fact that your survey could only come up with a scattering of barely-known journals and a YouTube channel where someone self-publishes their personal opinions shows, I think, that the point of view in these things is WP:FRINGE, at least as far as reliable sources are concerned. If it were not a fringe viewpoint, it should be easy to come up with sources on par with, for instance, The New York Times, The Boston Globe, PBS NewsHour, ABC News (Australia), Wired, The New Yorker, New York, The Telegraph, and so on, all of whom have weighed in at length on this issue. --Aquillion (talk) 00:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is one good point made here, that Breitbart's negative reliability and ability to be sourced shouldn't only have the wikipedia mainstream saying that it is. That's definitely conflicting with WP:NPOV and turns the fork onto Misplaced Pages. I did a quick search and could only find an answers.com where a user asked if Breitbart's site is reliable. The top response said no, and it's something I feel we know, but I feel like it would be easier to make the laughable few who do trust it to avoid fighting over whether or not there is truth to the statement by finding a reputable source that actually calls them out, regardless of neutrality. (As their mediums can say whatever they want. Just covering my bases for when someone tries to call out ambivalence.) What's that other news site that I've tried to purge from memory that posts all of the pictures of the photoshopped animals, like green cats, saying, "you won't believe this vitamin," or whatever? The real question is, on a scientific level and a neutral point of view, WP:NPOV, how can you flesh out the reason behind why Breitbart is not reliable without linking to articles cross referencing those with contradicting articles from legitimate publications? Also, I wanted to point out that it's hillarious that anyone could pretend there was a "mixup" on the two people and the site lingered. I know the publication process and how stressful being accurate and have your page perfect and correct is, as I've seen it first hand. An error like that doesn't linger, no. It's blatant fabrication.Chewbakadog (talk) 07:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
If Escapist is WP:RS then you might want to include this source: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12397-Brad-Wardell-GamerGate-Interview. HessmixD (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually I need to put forth that if the Damion Schubert interview from Escapist is used, every single interview The Escapist has done on the topic of GamerGate should also be used as a source (I only just looked at how many they actually did, it's a fair amount). HessmixD (talk) 06:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's not how we write articles. We don't include every one of anything. Otherwise articles would be a) 10 miles long and b) have 20-mile-long source lists. Moreover, if we included every mainstream reliable source article about Gamergate, you would be complaining even more than you are now about a supposed "imbalance," because the weight is pretty overwhelming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've misunderstood some of the policies then, so help me out here. Why was it determined that the Damion Schubert interview would be used as a source but none of the countless others? HessmixD (talk) 06:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Also I'm reading over your comment again. Did I do something wrong? You seem to be accusing me of bad faith. I'm not complaining anywhere, I really am trying to make this article the best that it possibly be. HessmixD (talk) 06:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's not an accusation — it's simply meant as a note of the consequences if we included every reliable source — the article would get very big and very unwieldy and would include even more material that paints Gamergate in a negative light.
- There's never been any statement that Damion Schubert's interview would be the only one used — only that we aren't going to use all of them, because we don't use all of anything. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Alright thank you for the clarification it helps. Since I'm new it looked liked only one source was being considered for use. Also sorry, the "you would" sounded accusatory. HessmixD (talk) 06:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's not how we write articles. We don't include every one of anything. Otherwise articles would be a) 10 miles long and b) have 20-mile-long source lists. Moreover, if we included every mainstream reliable source article about Gamergate, you would be complaining even more than you are now about a supposed "imbalance," because the weight is pretty overwhelming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Reliability of TechRaptor, NicheGamer, and CynicalBrit
Based on the above discussion and WP policy I believe a case can be made that TechRaptor, NicheGamer, and CynicalBrit are reliable sources for certain uses and circumstances. They are third-party publishers. They have paid professional writers and editorial staff. They have demonstrably engaged in fact-checking and issued corrections. All explicit guidelines for reliability have been met, and no explicit criteria of a questionable source have been met. Although CynicalBrit publishes via YouTube, WP:NOYT makes exception for official channels of reliable publishers. TechRaptor and NicheGamer have published codes of ethics and privacy policies, which is above and beyond WP's expectations for a reliable source. These sources are unquestionably less established than the likes of the New York Times, but that is not the minimal threshold of reliability. WP:NEWSORG notes "News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact", but that is a statement on the degree of reliability, not a prohibition of less established sources. Various editors, such as on notice boards and wiki project pages, have applied more stringent standards - including career history of the writers, or whether the source itself meets WP topic notability standards. These criteria, and any like them, are not endorsed by relevant policy pages, and using these opinions as precedents here is unwarranted. This is especially so in light of the concluding statement of /RFC1, which noted "Here, the key is UNDUE and NPOV, which may mean we have to use some less reliable sources, but all for the benefit of the article in the longer term."
As a non-exhaustive list of how these sources might be used:
- What claims, themes, and opinions exist within the Gamergate controversy, as statements of fact
- The level of agreement or support for various claims, themes, or opinions within Gamergate, as WP:INTEXT attributed opinions
- Precise numerical data on how social media is used in the Gamergate controversy, as statements of fact.
- Establishing noteworthiness and performing synthesis on statements in social media, as attributed opinions. (From WP:NEWSORG, "The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate (i.e. the rumors themselves are noteworthy, regardless of whether or not they are true).")
- Reviews of video games, particularly as pertaining to their gender portrayals, as attributed opinions
- Summaries of aggregate trends in consumer or media responses to particular games, as statements of fact
- Other statements of fact for which the source gives specific, verifiable evidence supporting the statement of fact. (This evidence need not itself come from a source eligible for citation on Misplaced Pages. That evidence be provided at all is not in general an onus placed on secondary sources in WP, but a special consideration given to allay concerns about reputability.)
Similar matters will no doubt be raised in the Reliable Sources Noticeboard; however appropriate use of the noticeboard is for supporting exact statements in an article. The discussion has not yet reached that level of specificity. Rhoark (talk) 18:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- I feel as long as we use similar wording to other sources that are presenting opinions, and are sure to mention these are the opinions of the authors/publications, their inclusion should be fine. Ries42 (talk) 19:09, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, these are not at all reliable. I checked at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources and both TechRaptor and NicheGamer have been discussed there, with the result that neither were considered reliable. If you want another opinion, I would suggest starting there. It doesn't appear that TotalBiscuit has ever been discussed there, but I can almost guarantee he would be quick failed as he's not a journalist, isn't part of a publication, and so on. (And I say this as someone who has watched probably 75% of his videos.) Woodroar (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those discussions are what I had in mind when mentioning more stringent criteria that should not be used as precedents here. My points on that still stand. TotalBiscuit is part of a publication (CynicalBrit). He has made very nuanced arguments about the distinctions between journalism, entertainment, commentary, consumer reporting, etc and where he stands; but he still amounts to a news source. Rhoark (talk) 01:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Where are you getting CynicalBrit is a publication? Everything I've seen is that it's run by Bain under the Polaris network, but that doesn't mean it there is editorial control or fact checking going on. Further TotalBiscuit says he's not a journalist, so we'd be citing a not-a-journalist for his opinion which would violate WP:UNDUE unless a WP:RS weighted for us. — Strongjam (talk) 02:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Those discussions are what I had in mind when mentioning more stringent criteria that should not be used as precedents here. My points on that still stand. TotalBiscuit is part of a publication (CynicalBrit). He has made very nuanced arguments about the distinctions between journalism, entertainment, commentary, consumer reporting, etc and where he stands; but he still amounts to a news source. Rhoark (talk) 01:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, these are not at all reliable. I checked at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources and both TechRaptor and NicheGamer have been discussed there, with the result that neither were considered reliable. If you want another opinion, I would suggest starting there. It doesn't appear that TotalBiscuit has ever been discussed there, but I can almost guarantee he would be quick failed as he's not a journalist, isn't part of a publication, and so on. (And I say this as someone who has watched probably 75% of his videos.) Woodroar (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- I feel as long as we use similar wording to other sources that are presenting opinions, and are sure to mention these are the opinions of the authors/publications, their inclusion should be fine. Ries42 (talk) 19:09, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, read WP:UNDUE. As it states, if a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents among reliable sources. TechRaptor and NicheGamer are obviously not prominent. CynicalBrit, meanwhile, makes no claims to editorial control or fact-checking; his youtube videos are explicitly self-published opinion pieces, which means he is a questionable source. Using any of these in the article for the things you mentioned would therefore be a clear-cut case of giving their fringe viewpoint WP:UNDUE weight. (Remember, WP:FRINGE cares about how common and mainstream an opinion is among reliable sources.) --Aquillion (talk) 00:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are conflating prominence of adherents, notability of adherents, and prominence/reliability of sources. It is easy to name prominent adherents of the idea that there are legitimate ethical concerns in Gamergate. Adam Baldwin, Christina Sommers, Georgina Young, Damion Schubert, Milo Yiannopoulos, Julian Assange, Raph Koster, Jimmy Wales, etc, etc, etc. It is not necessary for this purpose to identify people who believe that Gamergate is on the whole a good thing. This is clearly not a fringe idea, and it deserves due weight. CynicalBrit absolutely makes claims to editorial control and fact checking. It is true that most of what it publishes is opinion, and that should be taken into account in the ways it is cited. Rhoark (talk) 01:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Articles are not written under the assumption that there are just two monolithic sides; every commentator has their own opinion, and we give weight to opinions based on how they are covered in reliable sources. If you want to include quotes from comparatively-unknown outlets like TechRaptor or NicheGamer, you therefore need reliable sources saying that the opinions of those publications specifically are relevant, not just vague "they are on the same side as Adam Baldwin, whose notability makes everyone who I judge to be on Adam Baldwin's side relevant." Likewise, prominence is not sufficient; we need prominent reliable sources on the subject. Most of the people you listed are not reliable sources for things outside their own opinion. Given the quality of sourcing already present, we generally need large mainstream publications with a reputation for reliable fact-checking and editorial control to back up the core narrative of the article and to determine which of the countless non-notable opinions people have posted on the Internet about this are worth citing. CynicalBrit, say, does not claim remotely the level of these things necessary to be a reliable source. his videos youtube videos are self-published discussions of his personal opinions, with none of the dividing line between opinion and fact necessary for a reliable source, nor is there any reason to think his personal opinion on this matter is particularly relevant here beyond the fact that he happens to agree with you. Beyond that, it is easy to find coverage from large, well-known mainstream publications that have discussed GamerGate, so I don't see any reason why we would use the unreliable and questionable sources you've dug up; remember, our goal as an encyclopedia is not to give every side equal weight, but to give each side weight in proportion to its representation among reliable sources. The paucity and obscurity of the sources you have dug up here, I think, clearly shows that the opinions you're trying to use these sources for are WP:FRINGE. --Aquillion (talk) 03:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I've explained in a couple of places higher in the thread, the requirements under WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE, and WP:RS are not one big mass that can be squished together and applied interchangeably. They are separate issues, which are met separately and in different ways for the idea that there are legitimate ethical concerns. More sources need to be included in the article because they exist, and without them the article does not give due weight to a significant minority viewpoint to which the article topic is directly related. The momentum of discussion should now be towards deciding which sources best satisfy this need for due weight, not whether it ought to be satisfied. Rhoark (talk) 06:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- The idea that Gamergate has anything to do with "ethics in games journalism" is indisputably fringe, and only becoming more fringe as time passes. What little mainstream coverage remains of Gamergate can be more or less summed up by MCV:
GamerGate has quietened down in recent weeks (although it remains an issue), but the lasting damage this has done to the industry will only be seen over time, as the whole world saw a dark and disappointing side to the video game community.
and the Los Angeles Times:Much of the past year in gaming was marred by a quasi-Internet-driven movement known as “gamergate.” The phrase was almost immediately associated with violent, social-media-driven comments directed at female game developers and writers, namely those who dared to speak out about the boys club that has long been the video game medium. Gamergate is convoluted, but it’s driven by a fear that criticizing games for misogyny or a lack of social awareness will result in a politically correct makeover of the medium.
The movement is described not as having anything to do with "ethics in games journalism," but with alleged "political correctness." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)- In surveying the available sources, I have come to the realization that the existence of legitimate concerns is the majority consensus. The most common opinion seems to be that there are legitimate concerns overshadowed by harassment. Next is legitimate concerns being advanced in bad faith as attacks on women. These combined outnumber those saying there are no legitimate concerns, even before adding those saying without reservation that concerns are legitimate. Rhoark (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- The idea that Gamergate has anything to do with "ethics in games journalism" is indisputably fringe, and only becoming more fringe as time passes. What little mainstream coverage remains of Gamergate can be more or less summed up by MCV:
- As I've explained in a couple of places higher in the thread, the requirements under WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE, and WP:RS are not one big mass that can be squished together and applied interchangeably. They are separate issues, which are met separately and in different ways for the idea that there are legitimate ethical concerns. More sources need to be included in the article because they exist, and without them the article does not give due weight to a significant minority viewpoint to which the article topic is directly related. The momentum of discussion should now be towards deciding which sources best satisfy this need for due weight, not whether it ought to be satisfied. Rhoark (talk) 06:36, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Articles are not written under the assumption that there are just two monolithic sides; every commentator has their own opinion, and we give weight to opinions based on how they are covered in reliable sources. If you want to include quotes from comparatively-unknown outlets like TechRaptor or NicheGamer, you therefore need reliable sources saying that the opinions of those publications specifically are relevant, not just vague "they are on the same side as Adam Baldwin, whose notability makes everyone who I judge to be on Adam Baldwin's side relevant." Likewise, prominence is not sufficient; we need prominent reliable sources on the subject. Most of the people you listed are not reliable sources for things outside their own opinion. Given the quality of sourcing already present, we generally need large mainstream publications with a reputation for reliable fact-checking and editorial control to back up the core narrative of the article and to determine which of the countless non-notable opinions people have posted on the Internet about this are worth citing. CynicalBrit, say, does not claim remotely the level of these things necessary to be a reliable source. his videos youtube videos are self-published discussions of his personal opinions, with none of the dividing line between opinion and fact necessary for a reliable source, nor is there any reason to think his personal opinion on this matter is particularly relevant here beyond the fact that he happens to agree with you. Beyond that, it is easy to find coverage from large, well-known mainstream publications that have discussed GamerGate, so I don't see any reason why we would use the unreliable and questionable sources you've dug up; remember, our goal as an encyclopedia is not to give every side equal weight, but to give each side weight in proportion to its representation among reliable sources. The paucity and obscurity of the sources you have dug up here, I think, clearly shows that the opinions you're trying to use these sources for are WP:FRINGE. --Aquillion (talk) 03:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are conflating prominence of adherents, notability of adherents, and prominence/reliability of sources. It is easy to name prominent adherents of the idea that there are legitimate ethical concerns in Gamergate. Adam Baldwin, Christina Sommers, Georgina Young, Damion Schubert, Milo Yiannopoulos, Julian Assange, Raph Koster, Jimmy Wales, etc, etc, etc. It is not necessary for this purpose to identify people who believe that Gamergate is on the whole a good thing. This is clearly not a fringe idea, and it deserves due weight. CynicalBrit absolutely makes claims to editorial control and fact checking. It is true that most of what it publishes is opinion, and that should be taken into account in the ways it is cited. Rhoark (talk) 01:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
TechRaptor
Techraptor gives its authors, who have no journalistic credentials at all, access to edit their own articles. Those authors have said that Techraptor does not do any "copyediting" of their works. Techraptor has said that authors are paid-per-click. This is nearly identical to "the examiner," which is globally prohibited from use. Hipocrite (talk) 23:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You just described a large number of sites that are not blacklisted. There is currently only one article that links to TechRaptor. No indication exists that anyone is attempting to spam the site.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:58, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- If there's only one article which links to TechRaptor right now, that would tend to suggest that it's not a significant or widely-used source on the encyclopedia and that it doesn't have a known reputation for reliability and fact-checking. The claim currently sourced to TechRaptor is an inoffensive fact about a video game. The links proposed here, on the other hand, contain highly-derogatory claims about living people, for which we (properly) set a much higher standard. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nowhere did I suggest we use TechRaptor as a source as I generally agree they do not meet our standards for reliability. What I was responding to was the implication behind comparing TechRaptor to a black-listed site.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Highly derogatory claims about living people are not among the proposed uses in the numbered list above. Rhoark (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- If there's only one article which links to TechRaptor right now, that would tend to suggest that it's not a significant or widely-used source on the encyclopedia and that it doesn't have a known reputation for reliability and fact-checking. The claim currently sourced to TechRaptor is an inoffensive fact about a video game. The links proposed here, on the other hand, contain highly-derogatory claims about living people, for which we (properly) set a much higher standard. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- The exact procedures by which editorial control is enforced do not seem relevant for the purposes of establishing reliability. "Copyediting" denotes correction of spelling, punctuation, and grammar. TechRaptor promulgates standards for its content, and there is no reason to believe it does not enforce them. Moreover, reliability occurs in a context. The present context is in an article that directly relates to a controversy involving a significant minority viewpoint, and under an exhortation from RFC1 to accept less reliable sources where needed to give due weight to that viewpoint. Sources that might not be reliable enough for other pages can be reliable here. Rhoark (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- What Hipocrite is saying is that Techraptor is, effectively, self-published; in particular, it is a content farm, which are generally not acceptable as sources for Misplaced Pages articles. --Aquillion (talk) 07:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- That is just wild accusation. There is no indication of SEO abuse. There is no indication their content is routinely copied across different sites. There is no indication their articles are designed as clickbait or based on search engine analysis. There is no indication that they are engaged in spamming. The best allegation that can be leveled against them is that they are relatively new. Age is an indicator, but not by itself an excluding criteria for a reliable source. Rhoark (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did not mention SEO abuse, site copying, search engine analysis, or spamming. I note that they have no professional editorial oversight (the EIC is a real estate agent for his day job), and run a platform that would tend to produce articles that are first-on-the-scene with bad information. Pay-per-click with direct access to the publishing platform and no professional editorial oversight is not what a reliable source does. Hipocrite (talk) 15:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Aquillion called it a content farm, which entails those specific practices. Part-time professional oversight is still oversight. Major outlets also run with unconfirmed information for breaking news. We don't cite that on WP either. Reliable source guidelines make no mention of payment structure except where a specific conflict of interest has been identified. None has been identified. You are grasping at straws and bringing up things that are either irrelevant, or that TechRaptor has in common with accepted sources for this article. Rhoark (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- No I didn't. Hipocrite (talk) 18:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Apologies, it was Aquillion who made that claim. I have modified my comment accordingly. Rhoark (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Regardless, the core element here is the use of huge numbers of freelance writers, paid per click, with no editorial control over them and no noticeable checks for quality; they are like a content farm in the ways we care most about. Functionally, this makes them no different than a blog or a forum post in terms of reliability, since nearly anyone can contribute. --Aquillion (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, monetization only matters if a conflict of interest can be identified. Writers have an application process including submission of writing samples. Editorial and opinion pieces are marked as such by prominent disclaimers. Content and ethics guidelines are promulgated. Corrections and retractions are plainly visible in numerous articles. TechRaptor meets every concrete criteria of a reliable source and no concrete criteria of a questionable source. Rhoark (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the objection. Conflicts of interest are irrelevant (and in fact reliable sources can sometimes have conflicts of interest); but the fact that they are open to submissions from everyone means that they fail to provide editorial control and fall under "...any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database (IMDB), CBDB.com, content farms, collaboratively created websites such as wikis, and so forth." They come nowhere near satisfying WP:RS; as I said, my opinion after looking over their policies is that they are a form of content farm in the ways we care about it. (They also fail, of course, under "News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact".) --Aquillion (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone can write for them only in the same sense as anyone can write for the New York Times. They're certainly not as picky, but its nowhere close to user-generated content. Rhoark (talk) 04:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Like I said, the WP:RS guidelines set a level of "not picky" which makes a source unreliable; and by adopting a contant-farm-style business model (in which they recruit as many editors as possible, with no editorial control or copyediting and no checks for their credentials, and then pay them per-click) I think they've crossed that line. Regardless, the fact that they clearly fail the 'less-established outlets' test badly makes them unusable for any statements of fact, and there is no reason to think that any of the opinions posted there are noteworthy. --Aquillion (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The consequent of "less established" is "less reliable" not "non-reliable". Reliability is in a context. As for the content farm allegation you keep making, WP:LEGS. Rhoark (talk) 05:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- While reliability (and "established") are a spectrum, and depend on context, TechRaptor is not established at all, in any context; therefore it completely lacks reliability as a source. And I feel that I have repeatedly explained why it is analogous to a content farm in every way that we care about. Their business model appears to be to recruit as many contributors as they can, provide no meaningful editorial control or copyediting, and pay them by clicks; these are (if nothing else) the reasons why we do not allow content farms as reliable sources, and they clearly apply in this case. Regardless, looking over recent discussions, it looks as if you're the only one who feels particularly strongly that they can be used as a source, while I see numerous editors providing you with extensive, well-reasoned explanations for why it can't be used; so why not just find another source? GamerGate has gotten extensive coverage across the entire news media, so any views with significant grounding in reliable sources should be easy to source to less disputed outlets. --Aquillion (talk) 07:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The consequent of "less established" is "less reliable" not "non-reliable". Reliability is in a context. As for the content farm allegation you keep making, WP:LEGS. Rhoark (talk) 05:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Like I said, the WP:RS guidelines set a level of "not picky" which makes a source unreliable; and by adopting a contant-farm-style business model (in which they recruit as many editors as possible, with no editorial control or copyediting and no checks for their credentials, and then pay them per-click) I think they've crossed that line. Regardless, the fact that they clearly fail the 'less-established outlets' test badly makes them unusable for any statements of fact, and there is no reason to think that any of the opinions posted there are noteworthy. --Aquillion (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Anyone can write for them only in the same sense as anyone can write for the New York Times. They're certainly not as picky, but its nowhere close to user-generated content. Rhoark (talk) 04:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the objection. Conflicts of interest are irrelevant (and in fact reliable sources can sometimes have conflicts of interest); but the fact that they are open to submissions from everyone means that they fail to provide editorial control and fall under "...any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database (IMDB), CBDB.com, content farms, collaboratively created websites such as wikis, and so forth." They come nowhere near satisfying WP:RS; as I said, my opinion after looking over their policies is that they are a form of content farm in the ways we care about it. (They also fail, of course, under "News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact".) --Aquillion (talk) 01:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, monetization only matters if a conflict of interest can be identified. Writers have an application process including submission of writing samples. Editorial and opinion pieces are marked as such by prominent disclaimers. Content and ethics guidelines are promulgated. Corrections and retractions are plainly visible in numerous articles. TechRaptor meets every concrete criteria of a reliable source and no concrete criteria of a questionable source. Rhoark (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Regardless, the core element here is the use of huge numbers of freelance writers, paid per click, with no editorial control over them and no noticeable checks for quality; they are like a content farm in the ways we care most about. Functionally, this makes them no different than a blog or a forum post in terms of reliability, since nearly anyone can contribute. --Aquillion (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Apologies, it was Aquillion who made that claim. I have modified my comment accordingly. Rhoark (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- No I didn't. Hipocrite (talk) 18:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Aquillion called it a content farm, which entails those specific practices. Part-time professional oversight is still oversight. Major outlets also run with unconfirmed information for breaking news. We don't cite that on WP either. Reliable source guidelines make no mention of payment structure except where a specific conflict of interest has been identified. None has been identified. You are grasping at straws and bringing up things that are either irrelevant, or that TechRaptor has in common with accepted sources for this article. Rhoark (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I did not mention SEO abuse, site copying, search engine analysis, or spamming. I note that they have no professional editorial oversight (the EIC is a real estate agent for his day job), and run a platform that would tend to produce articles that are first-on-the-scene with bad information. Pay-per-click with direct access to the publishing platform and no professional editorial oversight is not what a reliable source does. Hipocrite (talk) 15:14, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- That is just wild accusation. There is no indication of SEO abuse. There is no indication their content is routinely copied across different sites. There is no indication their articles are designed as clickbait or based on search engine analysis. There is no indication that they are engaged in spamming. The best allegation that can be leveled against them is that they are relatively new. Age is an indicator, but not by itself an excluding criteria for a reliable source. Rhoark (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- What Hipocrite is saying is that Techraptor is, effectively, self-published; in particular, it is a content farm, which are generally not acceptable as sources for Misplaced Pages articles. --Aquillion (talk) 07:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
I would further note that the source links proposed are not even "news reporting" — they are clearly-labeled as op-eds which represent nothing more than the personal opinion of the author. I don't find any evidence that Andrew Otton has a significant reputation for reliability or that his opinions are considered notable. He has fewer than 125 followers on Twitter, which does not say much for his level of professional experience. Given that the substance of both links thus constitutes a non-notable writer's personal opinion published on a platform that doesn't appear to have strong editorial controls, there's really no need to pursue this line any further. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- TechRaptor publishes news and editorial content. It is their policy to clearly identify which is intended. Rhoark (talk) 05:53, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and the articles in question are indeed clearly identified as editorials — note the category tags "in Editorials, Gaming" — and thus represent the personal opinion of Andrew Otton only. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
sectioning for this tangent
| Discussion about user conduct, not about improving the article. — Strongjam (talk) 14:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Note: an editor above has made personal attacks here on me, and did not have the common decency to inform me that he would utter such claims as he does. I ask all who are discussing the issues to kindly treat his writings as inapt, inaccurate, battlegroundish, and not in conformity with Misplaced Pages standards of civil discourse. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
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Reliability of Mic.com
Looking closer at some of the sources, since we're on the topic, we're using Mic.com for one piece. The former Policymic, the site has been brought up multiple times at WP:RS/N for issues, and been shot down. It's rarely used on the site for good measure due to its lack of real editorial oversight (anyone can write for it), and I think the reference and supporting statements for it (there's really only one paragraph that amounts to the opinion of two people that is reliant solely on the site) should be removed. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I just used it in my re-write of a paragraph, but decided to remove it from there as wasn't really needed. The only problem with removing it entirely is the paragraph about the "Gamer Bill of Rights" goes. Which is useful for a reader, but if only mic.com writes about it, then maybe it's WP:UNDUE. — Strongjam (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I used it because it was one of the few/only sources available that was actually attempting to present Gamergate's claims in some form, to document and examine them. I wasn't aware of the previous discussions at RSN. If there's a consensus that it's not a good source, then it should be removed, and the whole "Gamer Bill of Rights" thing along with it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have been looking for other sources that cover it, and not finding any. more evidence that NO ONE has every really taken the "but ethics" seriously. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I can't find anyone even discussing this "bill of rights" in forums, except for a thread started by its author. Axe it. Rhoark (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Under Gamer identity, "hardcore gamer" means what?
I read the Gamer Identity section and it talks about "hardcore gamers" and just moves on. I was wondering if we should add any information that differentiates what a "hardcore" gamer actually is, apart from a normal gamer. Are we saying that "gamers" include the candy-crush players and mobile phone players? Are we saying hardcore is only streamers or tournament attendees? What are the parameters here? While I don't feel like this article would be a good spot for an entire discussion on it, maybe pointing readers in the direction of an article that does just that would be beneficial to the article as a whole. It seems like those who aren't well versed in the gamergate controversy are denied the chance of entering a discussion that they could be passionate about, but lack the vocabulary to contribute in this area specifically. I'd love to know what your thoughts on the matter is. Thanks, Complete turing (talk) 10:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- To a certain extent, disagreement over what the gamer identity means and how (or if) it's changing is at the core of much of the controversy, so I don't think we can just summarize it in any easy way. We do have a Gamer article, though (which briefly defines the terms you're asking about), so I've made sure the article links to that in appropriate places. --Aquillion (talk) 11:04, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the "hardcore" gamer identity, is really limited to a small niche of gamers within the larger "Gamer" identity. I know, I know, that's rather vague, so I'll try to explain it as best I can. Basically, it works out like this: Casual gamers are those who really don't think much about the games they play, putting less than eight hours a week into their gaming. They aren't overly competitive, and don't care so much about the game mechanics; as much as having "fun." Average gamers fall somewhere in between Hardcore gamers and casual. They put in an average of nine to sixteen hours gaming, and while they do have some competitive nature to what they play, they still find their interests governed by what they determine as being fun. They're the type that often play Player V. Enemy type games, or primarily non competitive single player type games. Hardcore players are the polar opposite of Casual gamers, in that they care less about having "fun" at the game, and more about their standing when compared to other gamers. They are the ones that spend the most time at the game, who work hardest to get the highest rank, level, or the best "gear" (as defined by mmorpg standards.) They also tend to be the most competitive, and to some degree, the most offensive? I suspect I'm using the wrong word there, but they're the ones that will scream "Faggot" and various racial slurs into open channels as they play. I hope that answers some of the question. Though I'm just a simple writer, if you want to quote me on that, feel free. Kitsunedawn (talk) 11:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- While the most competitive gamers are probably hardcore, I disagree that competitiveness is a key determinant of being hardcore. Those who spend hundreds of hours in games like Skyrim or Minecraft, and go on to create game mods and fanfic, are undoubtedly hardcore gamers. Rhoark (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Alexander Macris of The Escapist put forth "Gaming Enthusiast" as a more apt description of "Gamer." I tend to agree. Enthusiasts love their hobbies, talk about it with other Enthusiasts (or people who don't care about it if the case maybe) and do things like go to conventions. I'm sure most people who consider themselves "Gamers" would feel that Enthusiast is a bit of a weak descriptor however. HessmixD (talk) 06:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- While the most competitive gamers are probably hardcore, I disagree that competitiveness is a key determinant of being hardcore. Those who spend hundreds of hours in games like Skyrim or Minecraft, and go on to create game mods and fanfic, are undoubtedly hardcore gamers. Rhoark (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the "hardcore" gamer identity, is really limited to a small niche of gamers within the larger "Gamer" identity. I know, I know, that's rather vague, so I'll try to explain it as best I can. Basically, it works out like this: Casual gamers are those who really don't think much about the games they play, putting less than eight hours a week into their gaming. They aren't overly competitive, and don't care so much about the game mechanics; as much as having "fun." Average gamers fall somewhere in between Hardcore gamers and casual. They put in an average of nine to sixteen hours gaming, and while they do have some competitive nature to what they play, they still find their interests governed by what they determine as being fun. They're the type that often play Player V. Enemy type games, or primarily non competitive single player type games. Hardcore players are the polar opposite of Casual gamers, in that they care less about having "fun" at the game, and more about their standing when compared to other gamers. They are the ones that spend the most time at the game, who work hardest to get the highest rank, level, or the best "gear" (as defined by mmorpg standards.) They also tend to be the most competitive, and to some degree, the most offensive? I suspect I'm using the wrong word there, but they're the ones that will scream "Faggot" and various racial slurs into open channels as they play. I hope that answers some of the question. Though I'm just a simple writer, if you want to quote me on that, feel free. Kitsunedawn (talk) 11:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
The visibility of the "page protected" icon
Can we please not edit war over this?
And those coming to say it should be visible (I see threads at KIA that mention this), the icon does not mean the page's contents are disputed, necessarily, it means the page is protected in some degree from editing. We don't need the icon visible to show, as per the above edit that the page is "disputed", based on the results of the POV tag issue a few months ago. --MASEM (t) 19:10, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- As an outsider to this who has taken interest ever since the whole Ryulong drama started (you know, with him making a list of 20+ accounts and trying to get them all banned for being "SPAs"), it seems to me like the article is under dispute for good reason. There is an ArbCom going on, and there is constant arguing over the contents of the article. It seems to me that there is no good reason to try and hide that fact by removing the banner and making it a tiny lock icon. Because the general public would not even notice that, and assume the article itself is otherwise 100% factual and that it represents a neutral point of view. What purpose is there in hiding that banner, when we've got the "this article contains too many quotes" banner with no issue? DarknessSavior (talk) 20:36, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- The fact the template is called "pp-dispute" does not mean that the article is necessarily disputed, just that it is page protected. And there has been a previous discussion about having a POV notice on the page, but the general agreement is that the issues that the POV tag is meant to address are not the type that this article has to keep that POV tag in place. I personally am in agreement there are still some disputed issues, but that lock icon is not a thing to edit war or try to manipulated based on past consensus; that is not the Misplaced Pages way of doing things. --MASEM (t) 20:46, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- In this case the specific wording would be "Because the article has been the target of relentless vandalism , unregistered editors cannot edit."-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, do you have any source for the claim that "the general agreement" statement you made? I just glanced over the last two archives of the talk page and could find no such thing. And if two editors are here saying that we disagree with that, clearly there's at least a few people who disagree and there might be more.DarknessSavior (talk) 20:54, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- again, the protection level is not because of any "dispute" - it is to protect the article from IP vandals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- It was over at ANI, here . --MASEM (t) 21:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which proves what, exactly? That discussion is on the NPOV tag, and not the dispute tag. It was never decided to remove the dispute tag, AFAIK. Also, that thread was simply closed for being beyond the scope of ANI. If you actually tally up the votes, there's five for each side. Again, not exactly a majority. DarknessSavior (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are completely mistaken, it is not a "dispute" tag to signify a "dispute". It is a notice to potential editors that the page is blocked except for registered editors. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:14, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- As I noted above, the fact the "pp-disputed" template that puts that lock icon on the page is named "disputed" is perhaps unfortunately named. It is certainly not a cleanup or maintenance tag like NPOV was. It is only to warn editors that if they don't have proper rights they may not be able to edit the page. It is not a means to indicate there is a dispute with the page. --MASEM (t) 22:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- That seems odd to me, given the fact that in the banner itself it mentions "...or until editing disputes have been resolved." Combine that with the link that you just sent me which proves there was no clear consensus on getting rid of the NPOV tag, and the protection history of the article itself, only having recently been removed from being completely locked. Surely you don't mean to tell me that the current state of the article is fully agreed upon by all those editing it.DarknessSavior (talk) 22:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Actually there was a clear consensus to remove the "POV" tag. There were a group of people saying "The article is POV!!!!!" and another group saying "Please identify where the article does not represent the sources" and the first group saying . WP:CONSENSUS is not making the article such that "white knight crusaders" are satisfied that their POV is represented, consensus is based on those who demonstrate the article meets policies and sources. That has been the primary issue throughout this whole article and talk page discussions, there is a group of editors that is dissatisfied with the article, but they fail to provide reliably published sources or policy to back up any rationale for making the article less dissatisfying to them. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- That seems odd to me, given the fact that in the banner itself it mentions "...or until editing disputes have been resolved." Combine that with the link that you just sent me which proves there was no clear consensus on getting rid of the NPOV tag, and the protection history of the article itself, only having recently been removed from being completely locked. Surely you don't mean to tell me that the current state of the article is fully agreed upon by all those editing it.DarknessSavior (talk) 22:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which proves what, exactly? That discussion is on the NPOV tag, and not the dispute tag. It was never decided to remove the dispute tag, AFAIK. Also, that thread was simply closed for being beyond the scope of ANI. If you actually tally up the votes, there's five for each side. Again, not exactly a majority. DarknessSavior (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, do you have any source for the claim that "the general agreement" statement you made? I just glanced over the last two archives of the talk page and could find no such thing. And if two editors are here saying that we disagree with that, clearly there's at least a few people who disagree and there might be more.DarknessSavior (talk) 20:54, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- In this case the specific wording would be "Because the article has been the target of relentless vandalism , unregistered editors cannot edit."-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- The fact the template is called "pp-dispute" does not mean that the article is necessarily disputed, just that it is page protected. And there has been a previous discussion about having a POV notice on the page, but the general agreement is that the issues that the POV tag is meant to address are not the type that this article has to keep that POV tag in place. I personally am in agreement there are still some disputed issues, but that lock icon is not a thing to edit war or try to manipulated based on past consensus; that is not the Misplaced Pages way of doing things. --MASEM (t) 20:46, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Reason edit was reverted
I just edited the article, as shown here. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gamergate_controversy&oldid=639137024 The edit in question included a citation linking to a New York Times "Bits" article covering Intel pulling ads from Gamasutra. Some time later, Woodroar reverted the edit for what it seems like no particular reason, as I could not find an edit summary anywhere. Can someone please clarify why my edit was reverted? Battlesnake1 (talk) 04:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect it's the fact that you removed the description of the allegations against Zoe Quinn as being false, and that you inserted a claim that the controversy involves "corruption in journalism" which, well, yeah, it doesn't, really. If you want to work in the sourced wording where Gamergate supporters view the issue as a consumer boycott, I don't think that's problematic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes. I'm sorry, Battlesnake1, you had posted on the Talk page previously so I had assumed you were following the discussions. It was the BLP removal of "false accusations", the UNDUE addition of "corruption", and the likewise UNDUE addition of "boycott" to the lede when it's only partially supported by the source: the word "boycott" is used in the title but not in the article, and it's an incorrect or perhaps nonstandard use of the word "boycott" that they describe. But hey, I'm not a reliable source, and if we have reliable sources calling it a "boycott" then who am I to complain? But it needs to be a strong source fully qualifying its usage, and it doesn't belong in the lede when very few sources discuss it. I hope this helps. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 05:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate is primarily about misogynistic harassment; you can't cherry-pick one of the tiny handful of sources that give credence to the largely debunked "it's all about ethics" angle. The ethics gets a side note, that is all. Tarc (talk) 05:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The question of,"Is Gamergate primarily misogynistic or is it primarily about ethics?" is debatable, there is no clear answer. A clear goal of Misplaced Pages is to stay neutral in a controversy, despite our personal opinions and to review the facts of said controversy as it develops. Battlesnake1 (talk) 14:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not debatable in the slightest; reliable sources have predominantly dismissed the "but ethics" part and given attention to the "misogynistic harassment" part. The Misplaced Pages does not take a side when it reports the mainstream point-of-view on a topic. "But ethics" gets it's say and mention in the article, but the 2 "sides" are not equal, and will not be presented as such. Tarc (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Battlesnake1: Welcome to the reality that is Misplaced Pages. No matter which seems more likely, that thousands of people suddenly decided to organize a harassment campaign about women, or thousands of people became upset that journalists weren't being ethical and got them to change site policies and got FTC guidelines changed, Misplaced Pages can only report on what is covered in the majority of "reliable" sources. Weedwacker (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
If "reliable sources" give more attention to one side of the story than the other side, there is a sign of bias in those said sources. Also, Misplaced Pages is supposed to report on the 2 sides equally, whether the other side is covered more or not. Battlesnake1 (talk) 15:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- What you're describing would create false balance. WP categorically does not report equally on all the sides of a story. — Strongjam (talk) 15:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- You are incorrect. Per WP:UNDUE, "Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." The ethics concern is covered in the correct proportion that it needs to be. Tarc (talk) 16:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not undue weight to present a non-judgmental description, of modest length, of what the minority viewpoint is before explaining that the majority disagrees. It is not structurally neutral nor a requirement of due weight to dismiss unpopular views before presenting them, or to interleave the views with sea-lioning WP:HOWEVER clauses. While it is acceptable to assume a side of a controversy in WP's voice for expediency in articles not related to different points of view, this is an article about a controversy. No side of the controversy should be stated in WP's voice. Rhoark (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- We also don't spread gossip about living persons and then come back later to correct it, which is what this edit did. "Oh hey, remember when we said someone slept around for press, like, 3 paragraphs ago? Totes kidding, OMG it didn't even happen!" No, we're not going to do that. Woodroar (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is not undue weight to present a non-judgmental description, of modest length, of what the minority viewpoint is before explaining that the majority disagrees. It is not structurally neutral nor a requirement of due weight to dismiss unpopular views before presenting them, or to interleave the views with sea-lioning WP:HOWEVER clauses. While it is acceptable to assume a side of a controversy in WP's voice for expediency in articles not related to different points of view, this is an article about a controversy. No side of the controversy should be stated in WP's voice. Rhoark (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wrong again, otherwise 9/11 would have to give equal time to theories that the Jews and George Bush brought the towers down, that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion may be authentic, and so on. Fringe theories do not get a seat at the table; they get a seat at the fold-out table in the other room, just like for the kids at Thanksgiving. Tarc (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate concerns are not fringe, in and of themselves, and especially not in an article that directly pertains to them. If you want to make an analogy then look at September_11_attacks#Motives and Al-Qaeda#Ideology. Note the complete lack of sea-lioning about what mainstream sources think. Rhoark (talk) 22:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, they are. From the claims that there is a mass media conspiracy against gamergate, to their position that only people who like a game should review it as an example of "ethics in journalism" those gamergaters who are not harassers are wing nut idiots. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Fringe does not mean false, unpopular, or reprehensible. Prominent adherents have been identified. Reliable sources have noted the views. That's what it takes to not be fringe on WP. The adherents do not have to be reliable sources, and the reliable sources do not have to be adherents. Rhoark (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please name one popular adherent who says "Only people who like a game should review it" let alone someone who says that such a belief represents "ethics in journalism" as it most decidedly represents UNethical journalism. Please name one popular adherent who says there is a mass media conspiracy against gamergaters. And FRINGE IS positions who have no basis and no meaningful support in mainstream academics. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I cannot name any adherents to those or any number of other strawman arguments. Rhoark (talk) 00:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please name one popular adherent who says "Only people who like a game should review it" let alone someone who says that such a belief represents "ethics in journalism" as it most decidedly represents UNethical journalism. Please name one popular adherent who says there is a mass media conspiracy against gamergaters. And FRINGE IS positions who have no basis and no meaningful support in mainstream academics. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Fringe does not mean false, unpopular, or reprehensible. Prominent adherents have been identified. Reliable sources have noted the views. That's what it takes to not be fringe on WP. The adherents do not have to be reliable sources, and the reliable sources do not have to be adherents. Rhoark (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, they are. From the claims that there is a mass media conspiracy against gamergate, to their position that only people who like a game should review it as an example of "ethics in journalism" those gamergaters who are not harassers are wing nut idiots. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:02, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate concerns are not fringe, in and of themselves, and especially not in an article that directly pertains to them. If you want to make an analogy then look at September_11_attacks#Motives and Al-Qaeda#Ideology. Note the complete lack of sea-lioning about what mainstream sources think. Rhoark (talk) 22:54, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Wrong again, otherwise 9/11 would have to give equal time to theories that the Jews and George Bush brought the towers down, that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion may be authentic, and so on. Fringe theories do not get a seat at the table; they get a seat at the fold-out table in the other room, just like for the kids at Thanksgiving. Tarc (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused. Were you aware that your edit, which you described as "Included a citation linking to a New York Times "Bits" article covering Intel pulling ads from Gamasutra," also "removed the description of the allegations against Zoe Quinn as being false, and ... inserted a claim that the controversy involves 'corruption in journalism?'" I am concerned your account or computer are compromised. Please respond to this post haste. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 15:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
In what way was I "creating gossip?" Is there a quote in the edit in where it can be interpreted as gossip? I do not want to start an edit war here, but where exactly was I creating gossip? Battlesnake1 (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- You removed the fact that the accusations against Quinn were categorically false, but added they were simply "allegations". Allegations, neither true nor false. Look at it this way: if this article were about, say, a case of murder, do you think Misplaced Pages should say "so-and-so was alleged to have committed the crime" and then three paragraphs later resolve it with "haha, just kidding, that wasn't true at all"? I certainly hope not. It's the same reason we don't write that someone may have slept around for press when it didn't actually happen. Woodroar (talk) 23:00, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't the part of the article I feel is most in need of attention, but I've checked over the sources that are being cited for claims in the article about allegations being false, and there are a lot of them. None of them makes the claim, even as an opinion, that all allegations of trading sex for career advancement were false. A couple don't even mention allegations against Quinn one way or another. None of them even mentions alleged partners other than Nathan Grayson. Regarding Grayson, many sources say that he did not write a review of Depression Quest, which is true but a pedantic evasion of the fact he gave positive coverage to Quinn. Several sources note the coverage came before the sex (by 2-3 days), but do not explicitly synthesize this to imply the two things were not related. Stephen Tolito (who should be regarded as a primary source) only goes so far as to say there was not enough evidence to confirm wrongdoing. The bottom line is that the relation between the claims in the article and the available sources are in a sorry state on this matter. I don't believe there is anything noteworthy to be drawn from Quinn's sexual activity, and don't advocate that the article suggest there is. However, the article should moderate its claims to say the accusations are alleged and that there is no evidence that any of the claims are true. There should be no impediment to saying so in WP's voice, even. Saying things are false though should be phrased in a way that communicates what specific claims are false, and attributed as opinion if necessary. Or if an editor prefers, they can find a source that actually says all the allegations are false. Such a source would likely be WP:OTTO, but whatever. As a lower priority, someone should eventually clean up some of the spurious citations that were probably hastily salvaged from trimmed content. Rhoark (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The claims are false, as repeatedly discussed in reliable sources, the end. Your personal belief that something is "a pedantic evasion" is an unsourced opinion with no relevance to our article.
None of them even mentions alleged partners other than Nathan Grayson
— which is a very good clue that such allegations have absolutely no place in the encyclopedia. If reliable sources don't see fit to consider them, neither do we.- Moreover, if, as you claim, Gamergate is about "ethics in games journalism," then by extension the only allegation that matters to Gamergate is the allegation relating to a games journalist. Are you suggesting that Gamergate isn't about "ethics in games journalism" and is actually about gossip-filled scandalmongering of Zoe Quinn's personal life based upon an ex-boyfriend's "strange, rambling attack" of a blogpost? Quelle surprise. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- My opinions are not proposed to be referenced in the article and as such are not at issue. It is not the allegations, but the claims of falsehood that are under scrutiny here. I do not propose the other sexual partners be discussed in the article. However, if the article states that all the claims are false, that means all the claims. This is purely a reliable sourcing issue. The article is making a claim that is not reliably sourced by references in the article even if the claim is true and the consensus view of reliable sources that exist out there somewhere. If people are going to keep deploying the Spanish Inquisition about reliable sourcing, it has to be over all points of view. The article needs to either weaken its claims or source them better. Rhoark (talk) 00:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, you're not on point here. The claims of falsehood are made repeatedly in a wide array of reliable sources, and we are not in a position to question their conclusions.
- As our article states,
false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game
andfalse allegations from Quinn's detractors that the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of the game
. Both of those statements are well-sourced and accurate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)- I feel like this issue has come up before. Maybe to make it easier, NS, could you show your work? Just a quick: This was an allegation made, this is the source that says its false. Shouldn't be too hard if all the sources say "its false," no? (Edit Conflict Note to your edit...) Those are the most prominent allegations, but there are other allegations made. Can you show where the reliable sources called them false too? Ries42 (talk) 00:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You're welcome to click on the numerous reliable sources supplied in the article via inline citations for that statement. Whatever "other allegations" you're claiming exist, the mainstream reliable sources covering this issue do not consider them worthy of mention, so we don't mention them either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) A few examples from sources in the article:
- "Every single question of journalistic ethics #GamerGate has brought up has either been debunked or dealt with"
- All of the accusations of sexual favors for jobs and favorable press have been debunked. In fact, the ex-boyfriend who made this very public website that kickstarted this whole thing has gone in to clarify that these accusations are unfounded.
- In reality, though, the writer in question had mentioned Quinn in an article once, before their involvement, and had never reviewed anything of hers. Unless Quinn had access to a time machine, the idea of some sort of “conspiracy” didn’t make any sense. (Note that this explicitly states that the fact that the one mention was before their involvement disproves the accusations; several other sources in the article say similar things.)
- As far as I can tell, not a single reliable source has supported these allegations, and numerous reputable sources have said that they are without merit. We have to cover them based on what the reliable sources say; they have examined these particular accusations of sexual misconduct (in the way described in the article) and have universally dismissed them. Your concern, if I read it right, is that you think the reliable sources have examined the accusations the wrong way-- you believe they haven't followed the right angles, eg. you want to speculate about partners other than Grayson, or you personally feel that the timeline that numerous sources cite to dismiss the accusations is not sufficient evidence. But (particularly when it comes to coverage that falls under BLP, like this) we have to be very careful to follow the coverage in reliable sources, and the overwhelming consensus of those reliable sources matches the description in the article -- some people made these particular accusations about Quinn and Grayson, and those accusations accusations are categorically false. --Aquillion (talk) 00:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- First one isn't there. Another link?
- Second one is "on the media.org?" Is that a reliable source? Is this a blog? Hunh? I thought these sources were right out? Could you back this up.
- Boston Globe, finally, something clearly reliable.
long series of grievances and listed, by name, several people she had allegedly slept with while they were together. One of them was a writer for the popular blog Kotaku, and when this came out a certain subset of the gaming community erupted with videos and blog posts and other rants how she had seduced him for favorable coverage (the wench!).
Hmm, sounds like they're discussing a true allegation here. Ries42 (talk) 01:54, 23 December 2014 (UTC)- And before you strawman me, the allegation I'm referring to is the impropriety not the "sex for coverage" angle. Boston Globe, a clearly reliable source, is discussing it. That means its notable, right? Ries42 (talk) 01:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You might want to do a bit of research. On the Media is National Public Radio's media criticism and analysis program, a highly-reliable source.
- The allegation that the relationship had any connection to "favorable coverage" is false, as you agree. That's the only allegation which matters. We aren't in the business of discussing the sordid details of someone's ugly relationship drama, and we won't be doing so here. There is no public interest served in doing so — it is nothing more than bedroom gossip and rumors. If you want a supermarket tabloid report on who broke up with who for what reason, that can be found elsewhere. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Sure. That allegation has been denied by Grayson and Tolito believes him. Labeling it as "false" is interesting, but, you know, even if I give you that it is false, it doesn't mean that all allegations that were made were false. That's the issue. I just pointed out one of a number of allegations that were made, that were discussed by the reliable source presented here. At least one of those is true. As the "zoepost" is being linked as the start of Gamergate in the lede, and several of the allegations made there have been proven true... This seems like a clear cut case. Yes, many of the allegations are false, maybe even most of them. The specific ones you are pointing at have been agreed to by the reliable sources to be false as well. But the reliable sources have discussed other allegations and those have been proven true. Its misrepresentation to say that all allegations made in relation to Gamergate have been proven false. You and I agree that we don't need to discuss them more than that, but we need to make sure to not misrepresent the truth or the reliable sources. Ries42 (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, I'll repeat myself. As our article states,
false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game
andfalse allegations from Quinn's detractors that the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of the game
. Both of those statements are well-sourced and accurate. - Moreover, you have a really, really interesting way of showing that Gamergate is about ethics in gaming journalism by continually dragging in the personal life of someone who isn't a gaming journalist. What relevance do Zoe Quinn's personal relationships with people not named Nathan Grayson have to ethics in gaming journalism? Do you ever stop to think about why nobody outside your movement takes your claims seriously? Because this is exactly why — you're engaging in a smear campaign against an obscure indie developer. A movement's actions speak louder than its words, and its actions are plain for all to see. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- My movement? What are you accusing me of? Please do not insinuate I'm part of anything. I'm talking about the lede of the article which says,
The controversy began after indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson,
. That's what the article says. That's a true allegation. Later statingGamergate's origins in the false allegations and harassment of Quinn
is not a completely true statement. At best its a misrepresentation. - Later in the article it says
Evidence which is said to justify this belief is the movement's origination in false accusations and trolling
and links to the article here, which doesn't even use the word "false" at any point. - Later the article says
dating to the movement's origination in false claims about Quinn and Grayson.
, which, again, is only mostly true. If you state each and every time that they are specifically false allegations for positive coverage because of an intimate personal relationship, than each of those times is true. Without saying that, the article is misrepesenting the case. - I have no care about Ms. Quinn. I do not wish to drag her name through the mud, or make any false allegations. That includes labeling something as "false" that may not be. As long as the lede states that the beginning of Gamergate begins with Eron Gjoni's post and the allegations made there, it includes the allegations he made implicitly when referring to all allegations, some of which have been proven true. Unless the article specifies which allegations it is referring to when it labels all allegations as "false" it is a misrepresentation. The End. Stop trying to deflect by accusing me of something. I simply don't care. Ries42 (talk) 02:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- His screed covers a lot of ground and makes a lot of accusations and implication. accusations and implications about what consenting adults did that nobody but sexually deprived basement dwelling trolls care about. The only potential allegation of any public interest was review by someone involved in an undisclosed intimate personal relationship - that allegation is most definitely false. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- My movement? What are you accusing me of? Please do not insinuate I'm part of anything. I'm talking about the lede of the article which says,
- Once again, I'll repeat myself. As our article states,
- Sure. That allegation has been denied by Grayson and Tolito believes him. Labeling it as "false" is interesting, but, you know, even if I give you that it is false, it doesn't mean that all allegations that were made were false. That's the issue. I just pointed out one of a number of allegations that were made, that were discussed by the reliable source presented here. At least one of those is true. As the "zoepost" is being linked as the start of Gamergate in the lede, and several of the allegations made there have been proven true... This seems like a clear cut case. Yes, many of the allegations are false, maybe even most of them. The specific ones you are pointing at have been agreed to by the reliable sources to be false as well. But the reliable sources have discussed other allegations and those have been proven true. Its misrepresentation to say that all allegations made in relation to Gamergate have been proven false. You and I agree that we don't need to discuss them more than that, but we need to make sure to not misrepresent the truth or the reliable sources. Ries42 (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) A few examples from sources in the article:
- You're welcome to click on the numerous reliable sources supplied in the article via inline citations for that statement. Whatever "other allegations" you're claiming exist, the mainstream reliable sources covering this issue do not consider them worthy of mention, so we don't mention them either. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I feel like this issue has come up before. Maybe to make it easier, NS, could you show your work? Just a quick: This was an allegation made, this is the source that says its false. Shouldn't be too hard if all the sources say "its false," no? (Edit Conflict Note to your edit...) Those are the most prominent allegations, but there are other allegations made. Can you show where the reliable sources called them false too? Ries42 (talk) 00:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- My opinions are not proposed to be referenced in the article and as such are not at issue. It is not the allegations, but the claims of falsehood that are under scrutiny here. I do not propose the other sexual partners be discussed in the article. However, if the article states that all the claims are false, that means all the claims. This is purely a reliable sourcing issue. The article is making a claim that is not reliably sourced by references in the article even if the claim is true and the consensus view of reliable sources that exist out there somewhere. If people are going to keep deploying the Spanish Inquisition about reliable sourcing, it has to be over all points of view. The article needs to either weaken its claims or source them better. Rhoark (talk) 00:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- This isn't the part of the article I feel is most in need of attention, but I've checked over the sources that are being cited for claims in the article about allegations being false, and there are a lot of them. None of them makes the claim, even as an opinion, that all allegations of trading sex for career advancement were false. A couple don't even mention allegations against Quinn one way or another. None of them even mentions alleged partners other than Nathan Grayson. Regarding Grayson, many sources say that he did not write a review of Depression Quest, which is true but a pedantic evasion of the fact he gave positive coverage to Quinn. Several sources note the coverage came before the sex (by 2-3 days), but do not explicitly synthesize this to imply the two things were not related. Stephen Tolito (who should be regarded as a primary source) only goes so far as to say there was not enough evidence to confirm wrongdoing. The bottom line is that the relation between the claims in the article and the available sources are in a sorry state on this matter. I don't believe there is anything noteworthy to be drawn from Quinn's sexual activity, and don't advocate that the article suggest there is. However, the article should moderate its claims to say the accusations are alleged and that there is no evidence that any of the claims are true. There should be no impediment to saying so in WP's voice, even. Saying things are false though should be phrased in a way that communicates what specific claims are false, and attributed as opinion if necessary. Or if an editor prefers, they can find a source that actually says all the allegations are false. Such a source would likely be WP:OTTO, but whatever. As a lower priority, someone should eventually clean up some of the spurious citations that were probably hastily salvaged from trimmed content. Rhoark (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Context is nice. The full segment, in context: Many Gamergate supporters have said that they are concerned with ethics in video game journalism; members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites critical of Gamergate. This campaign and others like it have been widely criticized in the media as evidence that the ethics concerns are a front for a culture war against the diversification of video game demographics. Gamergate's origins in the false allegations and harassment of Quinn, its failure to identify significant ethical issues in games media, and its frequent criticism of game critics who discuss issues of gender, class, and politics in their reviews have also been cited as evidence for this position.
The fact that the purported journalism ethics violations by Quinn and Grayson are false has been cited as evidence that the movement isn't really concerned with ethics in video game journalism. Which is true and well-sourced. The end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- How is adding context changing that at all? It doesn't. If it said "Gamergate's origins in the false allegations of ethical misconduct and harassment of Quinn." We have no argument. The fact that just above that it states the the allegations that
The controversy began after indie game developer Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend alleged that Quinn had a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the video game news site Kotaku.
implies that those allegations are also false. Which they are not. Ries42 (talk) 02:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)- If that's all you thought needed to be changed, why not be WP:BOLD and make the change yourself, rather than argue about it? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Its not all that needs to be changed. Minds also need to be changed. Some editors would not agree with even that change. Plus, I feel like if I made that change in all the places it needed to be done, it would be reverted. Additionally, I'm afraid of being banned as I've noticed several editors make what would normally be minor edits and then be sactioned for it. I've decided not to be WP:Bold or make any edits until this article looks less like a battlefield. But I can lend my arguments and hopefully make more friends and make a better bridge here just talking. When there is less accusations like the one you made above, we'll all be in a better place. Ries42 (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- We're not here to change minds, we're here to document a controversy based on what reliable sources say about it. And what they say about it is pretty unanimous. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Baby steps. Ries42 (talk) 03:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, as NorthBySouthBaranof says, the purpose of an encyclopedia is not to change people's minds, but to provide a general overview of the subject as covered in reliable sources. Your objections notwithstanding, I think I illustrated above (and that it has been illustrated throughout the extensive discussions on this talk page) that our current article closely matches what the vast majority of reliable sources have to say on this subject and the weight they have given to its various aspects. --Aquillion (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Very small baby steps, clearly, but baby steps none the less. Ries42 (talk) 03:54, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Changing peoples' minds about how to edit is a valid goal on a talk page. Speaking of changing minds, while following link trails on this issue I came across this gem: http://www.mattiebrice.com/on-anger/ Insane how aligned some peoples positions would be if events hadn't polarized them. Anyway, I still think there is a problem in this area of the article, but my energies are directed at other parts right now. If someone were to slightly tweak wording so the claims of falsehood are more specific or guarded, I think that would be warranted. Rhoark (talk) 03:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- So when are people's minds going to change about editing to start following WP:NPOV / WP:RS and WP:RWG? seeing any baby steps in that direction would be a good thing.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, as NorthBySouthBaranof says, the purpose of an encyclopedia is not to change people's minds, but to provide a general overview of the subject as covered in reliable sources. Your objections notwithstanding, I think I illustrated above (and that it has been illustrated throughout the extensive discussions on this talk page) that our current article closely matches what the vast majority of reliable sources have to say on this subject and the weight they have given to its various aspects. --Aquillion (talk) 03:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Baby steps. Ries42 (talk) 03:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- We're not here to change minds, we're here to document a controversy based on what reliable sources say about it. And what they say about it is pretty unanimous. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Its not all that needs to be changed. Minds also need to be changed. Some editors would not agree with even that change. Plus, I feel like if I made that change in all the places it needed to be done, it would be reverted. Additionally, I'm afraid of being banned as I've noticed several editors make what would normally be minor edits and then be sactioned for it. I've decided not to be WP:Bold or make any edits until this article looks less like a battlefield. But I can lend my arguments and hopefully make more friends and make a better bridge here just talking. When there is less accusations like the one you made above, we'll all be in a better place. Ries42 (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- If that's all you thought needed to be changed, why not be WP:BOLD and make the change yourself, rather than argue about it? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Battlesnake1 and Rhoark, while I appreciate what you guys are doing, it's a lost cause. I and previous users have tried numerous approaches to write an impassive article here, but it's under factional control. There's a small squad of vehement anti-gamergate editors who assume any change in the slant of the writing is perpetrated by their political enemies. I've tried every rhetorical tactic I could think of including a fair amount of bargaining and compromise, but seriously, there is nothing you can do. This issue is ideological and the editors here are writing from ideology - they don't care about the articles for ISIS, the Nazis, or anyone else. They don't care what anyone's actual motives are. The history of the gaming industry this controversy concerns is meaningless here. Misogyny is their version of sin, and Gamergate supporters are demons. You can't convince them to allow these changes any more than you could convince someone to deliberately cast their own soul into Hell.
Presently, this article is under ArbCom review, which might remove a few editors and allow some less accusatory writing, but until then it's a wash. Until then, this article will regard Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and other Feminist pundits as sacrosanct martyrs and Gamergate will be Pilate. Just leave the article alone and come back in a year or two when it's further in the past. YellowSandals (talk) 00:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I appreciate your concern, but I have not seen any indication of editors presently acting in bad faith on this article. Several small but positive steps have been taken towards neutrality in the article itself over the weekend. Present discussions about expanding the diversity of reliable sourcing in the article are promising. Positive change will come by being vigilant that WP:DUE does not overshadow WP:IMPARTIAL. Rhoark (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but as a head's up, then, I can pass the baton to some extent and let you know that the editors here have gone over virtually every angle of WP:IMPARTIAL versus WP:UNDUE. It's the core issue with the article, of course, when you get down to it, but I have to express that the problem you're looking at is not just a single thing. Although it's quite difficult to remark on what Gamergate is doing or was trying to do because most articles only accuse Gamergate of harassment and don't elaborate on why they would harass anyone, the broader problem is that you've got editors who feel that Gamergate supporters are bad human beings as a matter of factual statement. Hence, when they write disparaging comments about Gamergate supporters, describing them as misogynists or anti-feminists, it doesn't matter why those people have actually done or said or how they describe themselves - it's presumed as fact. If you call someone a misogynist, that's just what they are. You can't debate it. None of the reliable sources are debating it, so nobody can debate it. Some editors will refer to this as undeniable truth, or irrefutable fact.
- Likewise, any discussion of Anita Sarkeesian or Zoe Quinn also does comes from the assumption that their enemies are all misogynists. It doesn't matter what either of these people have actually said, what their histories are - talk against them is misogynistic. All the reliable sources say this. It is regarded as Truth. You can't write against Truth. Writing against Truth would be WP:UNDUE. Imagine you are trying to convince other editors to say the sky is orange because you've got one or two reliable articles saying there's some debate about it. That's how it seems to them.
- Aside from that, don't bother bringing up the fact that Misplaced Pages hasn't made moral stances on other subjects. In the earliest parts of these debates, some editors merely remarked that this failure to disparage other evil groups was a "grave failing" or something to that effect. Since then the response to these comparisons have only grown colder and colder, to the point where it gets laughed off. You seem to have a good grasp of Wiki policy, Rhoark, but it's going to be an uphill battle and I'll be impressed if you can cite enough precedents to make any progress towards writing this article as though it were a controversy with opposing viewpoints and motives outside of Saturday morning cartoon evil. YellowSandals (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You keep seeming to think this is about Gamergate the Organization - its not. As an "organization"/"movement"/"revolting consumers" its non notable- nobody fucking cares about an "organizaiton"/"movement"/revolting consumers that cannot provide mission or even a spokesperson. The thing that got it noticed is the repetitive vile harassment committed under its name which lead to a wider discussion about sexism in video games. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- If we are going to be a neutral encyclopedia (not a news source), we have to care there is a self-described movement that has ethics claims, and give what few details have been published in reliable sources non-judgemential treatment of their cause, after which we can then include the criticisms of that cause. We absolutely cannot take the attitude that "nobody fucking cares" - its actually wrong to say that, because the sources do care in so far that this group is attached to a hashtag that has also been used for harassment attacks, and thus anything this group has tried to justified is tainted by that. That's "not caring", that's "strongly concerned". The more articles that come out this far out from the event - like the DAily Dot - suggest that we may want to start thinking of this article around the movement; they were initially noted for the harassment, but now they are noted for the consequences of their actions from both the harassment angle and from the ethics side even if these were not the results they wanted to end up. The controversy that is the topic of this article is about the actions of that movement or tied to the GG hashtop, and not the actual controversial elements that the movement has with ethics --MASEM (t) 05:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, your emotional ties to gamergate just keep showing through please start trying to be objective. As long as the sources dont care we dont care. And the sources DO NOT CARE.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- If we are going to be a neutral encyclopedia (not a news source), we have to care there is a self-described movement that has ethics claims, and give what few details have been published in reliable sources non-judgemential treatment of their cause, after which we can then include the criticisms of that cause. We absolutely cannot take the attitude that "nobody fucking cares" - its actually wrong to say that, because the sources do care in so far that this group is attached to a hashtag that has also been used for harassment attacks, and thus anything this group has tried to justified is tainted by that. That's "not caring", that's "strongly concerned". The more articles that come out this far out from the event - like the DAily Dot - suggest that we may want to start thinking of this article around the movement; they were initially noted for the harassment, but now they are noted for the consequences of their actions from both the harassment angle and from the ethics side even if these were not the results they wanted to end up. The controversy that is the topic of this article is about the actions of that movement or tied to the GG hashtop, and not the actual controversial elements that the movement has with ethics --MASEM (t) 05:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- You keep seeming to think this is about Gamergate the Organization - its not. As an "organization"/"movement"/"revolting consumers" its non notable- nobody fucking cares about an "organizaiton"/"movement"/revolting consumers that cannot provide mission or even a spokesperson. The thing that got it noticed is the repetitive vile harassment committed under its name which lead to a wider discussion about sexism in video games. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
New Daily Dot Discussion
The Daily Dot published a new piece on Gamergate in their Sunday edition. I think it could be useful in the debate over ethics section as they distil down the Gamergate ethics position into the nice and simple "Journalists are too cozy with developers and are failing to provide unbiased coverage of video game news." We should be careful though as we need to be clear that they are dismissive of that notion, saying that there is little evidence of it being true. They also point out specific 'ethics issues' GG supporters raise that aren't really about ethics, such as the Bayonetta review.
The article also covers the 'SJW' complaints, the harassment, #notyourshield, the mailing list, the Utah threats, and the fallout. All in all I think it's a great overview that we can use in pretty much every section of the article. — Strongjam (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- When I read this article, I realize we are not doing the job of providing an educational resource on the GG situation as should be our goal - this article does it beter. No, I don't think we can justify coverage that is nearly balanced (word count wise) between the ethics and the harassment issues, but here's the thing that the DD article points out and other sources have allude to - when you remove the harassment and consider the other events around this, there is a lot of issues that include both ethics (valid or not), and the nature of the gamer identity changing, that we are letting the harassment side get far too much weight on this. We are here because of the harassment, but the strong reliable sources have also gone into good detail describing their issues they see with GG as a movement outright of the harassment - that these are people struggling (whether it is morally right or wrong) with trying to hold onto the male identity that VG has. We don't
- What's been happening and its clearer to see from articles like the above is that we've been so focused on condemning the harassment - which is not a trivial matter, mind you, but perhaps excessive weight relative to the analysis of the reason, which at the end of the day is more fundamentally important from an academic view. And to describe those reasons will require expanding a small degree of presenting the GG issues. This is not to present the GG side equally, but to set a narrative stage to describe the analysis of the situation; by going by the what the popular press is saying, which is written for the purposes of news reporting and not for an encyclopedia, and which has downplayed the GG rational, we are not including enough to be an appropriate educational work.
- There is going to be a part of this article that has to be news-like , and that's going through the actual events of harassment, the attempts by GG to pull ads, and a few other things. That's required, and the like. Further, we still definitely have to cover how badly the harassment was seen by the press in general, no question. But we should be developing the article to start to include the social analysis aspect that is really what is of long-term interest here, which the DD article starts to get into, and per the DIGRA stuff, we can expect more in the future. The "how" is important, but the "why" is much more from an encyclopedia. Which the point that I'm saying is that to get to the "why" we might have to give a bit more to the fundamentals of what GG is doing. Do we need to do this now? No, not until there are more of these analysis articles to determine that. But we should be aware that we are likely going to have a analysis section that goes into depth of the reasons why GG happened, and to that end we should be organizing the article towards that , and getting away from the idea that we should be trying to exactly mirror the news and structure the article better for eventual expansion. --MASEM (t) 20:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. You say what I'm thinking. The question is, do we leave the article as it is now, which basically only talks about the harassment, and seriously downplays any other angle until there are better analysis articles, or maybe we at the very least stop with some of the comments that act as if the harassment angle is the only notable part of this issue.
- Or, do we continue to act as if nothing else is happening. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand that the "most reliable mainstream reliable sources" (in quotes because its a long phrase, not because I'm trying to lesson its importance) are almost exclusively covering the harassment angle. There is not dispute there. With that being said, we can source, albeit with slightly less reliable than the "most reliable mainstream reliable sources," but still sources that can meet the "reliable sources" criteria, some of the other parts of the gamergate controversy. We haven't been succeeding in that yet. I think we can do better, and I think Masem hits it on the head where we are failing. Ries42 (talk) 20:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- One marginal reliability article does not change the overall representation of the subject from the dozens and dozens of highly reliable sources . the majority focus of the vast majority of the reliable sources is still overwhelmingly harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except, however, when you take into account RECENTISM, more and more of the sources (which there are fewer of) are better pushing the idea that GG was an attempt to address ethics overwhelmed by a significant minority that harassed others. We are letting the recentism from the onset of GG that all admonished GG for harassment to overlook that there is actually discussion in reliable sources that comment and critique (beyond more than "but ethics!") the reasons this who situation developed; it arguable that while harassment was the public aspect, it forced the industry to look at all the dirty laundry it has out there in light of what attention they got, it forced people to think about why gamers want to exclude women and minorities, and other factors. It is the why that the encyclopedia should be built around, though the historical record of events is still critical to include. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not even the more RECENT articles are giving "but ethics" any credibility or time of day. The more recent articles may be more "Harassment + Discontent with being subject to social critique". I think are article fairly follows that proportionality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- This article (the DD one) proves that wrong. While it mentions the harassment briefly at the start as part of an overview, the first half is about the ethics issues, and then goes on to note the tainting done by the harassment. It takes a far different view of the situation, now that we're 4 months out from the start, than what we've got which is based primarily on sources form the first 2 months. It doesn't ignore the harassment but it doesn't put it front and center and instead about the issues and concerns about (not from) this group and how it is reflecting on the industry and forcing the industry to reflect on itself - it focuses more on the Why than the what. --MASEM (t) 21:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you are going to base your position on one marginally reliable source, then fine, but dont expect others to take your position as reasonable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, I'm not saying we need to change because of one source, but the few articles that trickle out about GG nowaday are showing a trend that avoids RECENTISM. There's a better model here for how to present this article, one that I would anticipate that any academically-focused study will adopt more than "it's about harassment", but until those other sources come, it's not a point that I can convincingly argue that we must change it to this way. I will, however, argue that it is a fair model of an a approach that we can do better voluntarily (but do not consider this a formal suggestion/poll to start that, I'm just throwing it out there), even if no additional sources come out. --MASEM (t) 23:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you are going to base your position on one marginally reliable source, then fine, but dont expect others to take your position as reasonable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- This article (the DD one) proves that wrong. While it mentions the harassment briefly at the start as part of an overview, the first half is about the ethics issues, and then goes on to note the tainting done by the harassment. It takes a far different view of the situation, now that we're 4 months out from the start, than what we've got which is based primarily on sources form the first 2 months. It doesn't ignore the harassment but it doesn't put it front and center and instead about the issues and concerns about (not from) this group and how it is reflecting on the industry and forcing the industry to reflect on itself - it focuses more on the Why than the what. --MASEM (t) 21:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not even the more RECENT articles are giving "but ethics" any credibility or time of day. The more recent articles may be more "Harassment + Discontent with being subject to social critique". I think are article fairly follows that proportionality. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not "an attempt to address ethics" so much as an attempt to discredit social critics of video games. As the source details:
To Gamergate denizens, the gaming press is unethical because it acknowledges social issues in video games. When Gamergate proponents claim a concern for “ethics in journalism,” this is nearly always what they are talking about.
These are not truly ethics issues, but ideological differences. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2014 (UTC)- Ethics is clearly misused, much in the same way most people misuse ironic. Sure, there are many issues that are not "technically" ethics, but there are sources that talk about conflicts of interest, lack of pertinent disclosures, etc., which while not technically "journalistic ethics" issues, should not be summarily dismissed either. Ries42 (talk) 21:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except, however, when you take into account RECENTISM, more and more of the sources (which there are fewer of) are better pushing the idea that GG was an attempt to address ethics overwhelmed by a significant minority that harassed others. We are letting the recentism from the onset of GG that all admonished GG for harassment to overlook that there is actually discussion in reliable sources that comment and critique (beyond more than "but ethics!") the reasons this who situation developed; it arguable that while harassment was the public aspect, it forced the industry to look at all the dirty laundry it has out there in light of what attention they got, it forced people to think about why gamers want to exclude women and minorities, and other factors. It is the why that the encyclopedia should be built around, though the historical record of events is still critical to include. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- One marginal reliability article does not change the overall representation of the subject from the dozens and dozens of highly reliable sources . the majority focus of the vast majority of the reliable sources is still overwhelmingly harassment. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is the best summation of the issue in a single sentence:
The Gamergate movement wanted desperately to be about gamers’ perennial dissatisfaction with gaming media, but what it mostly seemed to result in was the harassment of individual women.
Precisely this. I agree that this is a good source for explaining some of the motivations and perceptions of Gamergate supporters, and also of the cultural impact of the movement's activities — the description of the international-headline-making USU massacre threat asthe moment Gamergate died as a cultural debate
is cutting and truthful. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)- I think this is a worrying way to think, you can't base a source's quality over if you agree with it. HalfHat 20:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- WP:TRUTHMATTERS Rhoark (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof: Even that first quote says it better than this WP article. The movement is talked about as wanting something that isn't the harassment of women. That is almost unheard if you were to listen to some of the editors here. That same line would be met with "No, Gamergate is only about misogynistic harassment, because that's what the reliable sources say" if muttered in this talk page by someone marked as "ProGG" in that editors head.
- The ultimate result isn't necessarily what the movement wanted, that quote implies. That quote even implies that the intent of Gamergate wasn't the "harassment of individual woman," even if that is what occurred. It "resulted in" harassment, it didn't "intentionally cause misogynistic harassment."
- That is an important distinction that is a lot more neutral than is presented here. Ries42 (talk) 20:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot piece comports well with our article, actually. As we describe in the lede, the movement deeply believes it is about dissatisfaction with gaming media (or as we put it, "ethical issues in video game journalism"). However, basically none of the movement's claims about "ethics" are viewed as meaningful — rather, at best they're viewed as sociopolitical disagreement with the perspectives and ideologies of some gaming journalists. As per the source,
The heart of their complaints had less to do with the ethics of how mainstream gaming sites were reporting, but what they were reporting. To Gamergate denizens, the gaming press is unethical because it acknowledges social issues in video games. When Gamergate proponents claim a concern for “ethics in journalism,” this is nearly always what they are talking about.
Meanwhile, far and away the most significant thing Gamergate has actually done is bombard outspoken women in gaming with misogynistic harassment and threats. Therefore, what the movement actually is about, as perceived by outside observers, is a highly-disingenuous set of purported "ethics" claims serving as a shield for a campaign of misogynistic harassment and threats against outspoken women in gaming. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2014 (UTC)- But that's not the point here. As noted by other sources like the recent GamesIndustry.biz one, regardless if GG set out to make these changes, the industry has been forced to review itself due to what the events around GG has exposed. The bulk of the press is about the harassment, no question, but for an encyclopedia article, we need to look past the primary events and go for the analysis, which the Daily Dot article does better than we presently do. And that means we have to consider the harassment the reason GG became a story, but not the primary focus of the article in the long run. Who and how the harassment was done, and the immediate reaction to that, and the impact on GG's attempt at legitimacy because of it, that's necessary to describe but the article should not be written around that as a central focus, but instead the impact of GG's existance on the industry that includes the results of see how the harassment was handled by various parties, etc. How do to that now, I don't know so I can't say what immediate changes have to be do, I'm just pointing this out as a direction to think about and how to work at prepping the article for a structure based on this approach instead of the current one. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the industry has been forced to review itself — in the exact opposite way that Gamergate wanted.
Perhaps this emphasis on kindness will produce the one concern for gaming that Gamergate failed to demonstrate: empathy for other players. Gamergate laid bare the emptiness of entitlement—the belief that cultural products are only for them—that the inclusion of other identities and experiences in games is somehow taking something away. ... Sarkeesian once described Gamergate as a “sexist temper tantrum.” In essence, Gamergate is about who gets to play in the sandbox. Now at the end of 2014, everyone does, whether gamers like it or not.
- In this piece's perspective, Gamergate is a reactionary backlash against social criticism — particularly feminist criticism — of video games and video gaming culture, and has succeeded only in drawing international attention to the culture's own hostility to social change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- But that's not the point here. As noted by other sources like the recent GamesIndustry.biz one, regardless if GG set out to make these changes, the industry has been forced to review itself due to what the events around GG has exposed. The bulk of the press is about the harassment, no question, but for an encyclopedia article, we need to look past the primary events and go for the analysis, which the Daily Dot article does better than we presently do. And that means we have to consider the harassment the reason GG became a story, but not the primary focus of the article in the long run. Who and how the harassment was done, and the immediate reaction to that, and the impact on GG's attempt at legitimacy because of it, that's necessary to describe but the article should not be written around that as a central focus, but instead the impact of GG's existance on the industry that includes the results of see how the harassment was handled by various parties, etc. How do to that now, I don't know so I can't say what immediate changes have to be do, I'm just pointing this out as a direction to think about and how to work at prepping the article for a structure based on this approach instead of the current one. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- The Daily Dot piece comports well with our article, actually. As we describe in the lede, the movement deeply believes it is about dissatisfaction with gaming media (or as we put it, "ethical issues in video game journalism"). However, basically none of the movement's claims about "ethics" are viewed as meaningful — rather, at best they're viewed as sociopolitical disagreement with the perspectives and ideologies of some gaming journalists. As per the source,
- The fact that I think it sums up the issue nicely is part and parcel of judging the quality, along with the obvious depth of research involved and the fact that it provides a broad perspective with distance from the major events. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think that description is quite fair. It describes what has happened without making blanket accusations of acting in bad faith. Rhoark (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think this is a worrying way to think, you can't base a source's quality over if you agree with it. HalfHat 20:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just a general comment, while this site isn't as reliable as a lot of them used, I do think the fact it is more recent now that it has largely finished make it much more relevant. HalfHat 20:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- You make a good point about reliability, it's published by The Daily Dot under The Kernel, which isn't without its own rocky history. It seems generally reliable to me, but if something came out from a more established periodical we should definitely favour that. — Strongjam (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a good and interesting read, but it would make a terrible model for a Misplaced Pages article. We don't editorialise. Nevertheless I think we do already cover much of the material and many of the viewpoints expressed here, in an appropriate fashion, and that's quite reassuring. --TS 22:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I think we need to be concerned that there is some citogenesis going on with this article. Her phrasing about Operation Disrespectful Nod is as follows:
Alexander wrote a strident piece in Gamasutra calling for the end of core “gamer” culture. In response, Gamergate proponents successfully bombarded Gamasutra’s main advertiser, Intel, with emails claiming the website was promoting bullying of gamers. A clueless Intel hastily pulled its advertising from Gamasutra, then declared it wasn’t taking sides, then restored its advertising after a subsequent email campaign from non-Gamergaters.
- Our phrasing:
Gamergate supporters were critical of articles that spoke of the "death of the gamer identity" such as Leigh Alexander's piece in Gamasutra. In response, supporters organized "Operation Disrespectful Nod," an e-mail campaign to advertisers demanding that they drop several involved publications. After receiving complaints from Gamergate supporters, Intel withdrew an ad campaign from Gamasutra in October, though it later apologized for appearing to take sides in the controversy and began advertising on Gamasutra again in mid-November.
- The very next issue she covers are the Biddle tweets, which mimics how we mention them, and again we can see her phrasing:
In the oddest tangent yet, Gawker’s then-Valleywag editor Sam Biddle took to Twitter to ironically suggest we should “bring back bullying” in order to silence Gamergate denizens once and for all. Biddle was subsequently reprimanded by Gawker owner Nick Denton after Gamergaters successfully targeted Adobe, persuading it to remove its logo from the website. Adobe later clarified it wasn’t actually a current advertiser at Gawker, but it wanted nothing to do with Gamergate’s agenda. “We reject all forms of bullying, including the harassment of women by individuals associated with Gamergate,” Adobe wrote. As for Valleywag, Biddle left it for greener Gawker pastures, but not before his editor, Max Read, lambasted Denton’s response to the farce: “We got rolled by the dishonest fascists of Gamergate.”
- Our phrasing does not include every detail, but there are some key similarities in word choice and presentation:
In mid-October 2014, Sam Biddle, an editor for the Gawker affiliate Valleywag, made a series of tweets that concluded with a call for a return to the bullying of nerds. This led to Mercedes-Benz and Dyson temporarily pulling advertising from Gawker and Adobe Systems requesting that Gawker remove their logo from a portion of the Gawker website. Gawker reported losing thousands of dollars as a result but editor-in-chief Max Read said his only regret was that the site had not adequately called out Gamergate's "breathtaking cynicism and dishonesty." Adobe later clarified that it had never been a Gawker advertiser and explicitly disowned Gamergate.
- Her discussion of NotYouShield also closely mirrors our own. She describes it as:
Quinn herself screencapped instances of 8chan denizens planning their own troll campaign: the subsidiary hashtag #notyourshield.
#Notyourshield was intended to seem as if it came from multicultural gamers against feminism, proclaiming that they, too, were women and minorities and that feminism couldn’t use them as a “shield” against justifiable criticism. The problem, as Quinn pointed out, was that it was a hashtag entirely engineered by 4chan members adept at creating troll campaigns using fake hashtags on Twitter. Quinn argued that the point was not to give a voice to women and minorities who supported Gamergate, but to deflect attention away from the #Gamergate hashtag once it came under fire for fueling misogyny and harassment.
- We describe it as:
Following Quinn's release of chat and discussion logs she got from 4chan, Ars Technica and The Daily Dot said that these logs showed that the #NotYourShield hashtag was manufactured on 4chan and that many of those posting under #NotYourShield were sockpuppet accounts impersonating women and minorities. Quinn said that in light of Gamergate's exclusive targeting of women or those who stood up for women, "#notyourshield was solely designed to, ironically, be a shield for this campaign once people started calling it misogynistic."
- I think we have to consider the possibility that Miss Romano did some significant portion of her research on Misplaced Pages. Additionally, while some may not consider this an issue, Romano is a sustainer for Feminist Frequency. That means she makes regular fixed donations to Feminist Frequency and has apparently done so for the past three years. Several pieces she has written on Sarkeesian have included this disclosure in the past. In this case, she references Sarkeesian extensively and that includes linking primarily to her own pieces on Sarkeesian when addressing a given issue whether it concerns Sarkeesian or not. Romano even links to Sarkeesian's latest Tropes vs. Women video right at the beginning in addition to embedding it in the piece itself further down. One link also goes to Katherine Cross, who is reportedly the secretary for Feminist Frequency.
- The Daily Dot is a reliable source, but we should be careful about how we use this piece.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- If anything, it just suggests its use should be oriented towards facts or points of view that are not already substantially represented in the article. Rhoark (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- There seems to be bit of contradictory dancing on shadows here: the daily dot is better than ours we should follow it more - the daily dot mirrors ours so we shouldnt trust it because its likely a mirror - except for the parts where she varies from us so we should put lots of credence there. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- We should always be aware of when a source may be basing its material off Misplaced Pages. In the event that material is not clearly based on Misplaced Pages it becomes more usable, but here we also have to be mindful of the fact that the author references herself and Sarkeesian a lot. The extent to which she references Sarkeesian is pretty suspicious in light of her years-long financial support of Feminist Frequency (she liked Anita before it was cool). We should be careful about how we use sources that may having conflicting motives in their coverage or that may be repeating details found here. That is simply the correct approach.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- But Ethics!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- What the hell kind of a response is that?--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 06:44, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- But Ethics!-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- We should always be aware of when a source may be basing its material off Misplaced Pages. In the event that material is not clearly based on Misplaced Pages it becomes more usable, but here we also have to be mindful of the fact that the author references herself and Sarkeesian a lot. The extent to which she references Sarkeesian is pretty suspicious in light of her years-long financial support of Feminist Frequency (she liked Anita before it was cool). We should be careful about how we use sources that may having conflicting motives in their coverage or that may be repeating details found here. That is simply the correct approach.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 05:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- There seems to be bit of contradictory dancing on shadows here: the daily dot is better than ours we should follow it more - the daily dot mirrors ours so we shouldnt trust it because its likely a mirror - except for the parts where she varies from us so we should put lots of credence there. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- If anything, it just suggests its use should be oriented towards facts or points of view that are not already substantially represented in the article. Rhoark (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
References
- Romano, Aja (December 21, 2014). "The battle of Gamergate and the future of video games". The Daily Dot. Retrieved December 22, 2014.
The Three Paragraph Lede
What exact purpose do the second two paragraphs in the lede provide, and can we take anything pertinent from them and push them into the first paragraph, or more likely, the content below?
I considered just making this edit myself (bold, etc etc), but while I've been following this page pretty closely, I admit I missed some of the discussion of the lede, and I know that it's the most contested part of the page. My concern is that the second paragraph opens with "The controversy began", despite the fact that the first section in the article itself is the history of the controversy. I think the first paragraph covers most of the critical details, and I've been trying to figure out which bits in the second two need to be moved up or down, if we go ahead with this.
- Quinn, Wu and Sarkeesian as the most notable victims of abuse? I honestly don't think their names need to be in a one paragraph lede, since thankfully none of the three have suffered any lasting consequences from the harassment. All this would require is making sure they're properly introduced when they're brought up below.
- Sources of the harassment: This probably should be moved into the first paragraph. Considering that Gamergate triggered the mass exodus from 4chan that created 8chan, it can probably feature as the locus, with reddit and twitter backing it up here. The wording here would be key, as I'm also wary of creating a bloated lede, which I imagine is why we have the three paragraphs we have now.
- "The movement's unwillingness to move beyond its unorganized, leaderless and anonymous roots has been criticized as non-constructive, and has resulted in an inability to control its behavior and messaging" This is what I consider the most important part of the third paragraph, and I think it belongs in a single paragraph lede because it'll be the lasting memory of this whole debacle, and its fizzling. In fact, it's possible we could wrap this and the second bullet into one sentence, as the idea of a leaderless mob is in no small part closely linked to its roots in imageboards and hashtags.
It feels silly to type all of this instead of just making the edit myself, but frankly I just wanted to be respectful and pick the brains of the more experienced editors about this. Parabolist (talk) 19:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
"...since thankfully none of the three have suffered any lasting consequences from the harassment"
? Doesn't matter one bit; if the harassment lasted for a day or a year (and judging by Amazon publishes thinly veiled rape fantasy of #GamerGate target Zoe Quinn, it is still an ongoing event), we follow what the sources say about a subject. Quinn, Sarkeesian, & Wu's targeting for harassment is what Gamergate is all about. The lead introduces the subject matter, hence the prominence of their names. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 23 December 2014 (UTC)- You misunderstand, I absolutely agree with that. What I'm saying is that in terms of lede real estate and long term notability, it's not entirely necessary for their NAMES to be in the lede. A controversy is remembered by its lasting outcomes, and Quinn/Wu/Sarkeesian are more likely to be remembered for their career successes than their position as targets of gamergate harassment, whereas as this whole debacle is most likely going to be remembered for its connections to a larger conversation on social issues. Parabolist (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:53, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I dont recall seeing any coverage of gg that didnt mention at least one of the three, most coverage includes all three. the harassment they in particular have been subject to is central to what makes gg notable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. I think that in general, harassment of Quinn, Wu and Sarkeesian in particular is what GamerGate is most famous for and is the focus of the majority of its coverage in reliable sources. I mean, maybe it should be, maybe it shouldn't be; clearly there's other stuff to cover, too (and our article does). But for the better or worse that's where a huge bulk of the coverage and notability here comes from, so it needs to be prominent in both the lead and the article. --Aquillion (talk) 05:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
More Cutting
In February 2013, Zoe Quinn released Depression Quest, her interactive fiction browser game created through the Twine software; it was accessible through the depressionquest.com website. Though the game was met positively by critics, it generated a backlash from some players who believed that the game received an undue amount of attention in comparison to its quality, especially after a planned Steam distribution platform release. Quinn began to receive hate mail over the game upon its release and criticism from some parts of the Steam user community, receiving enough harassment to cause her to change her phone number and restrict harsh commentators from posting on the game's Steam discussion forum. This elicited further outrage from others and by September 2014, Quinn had already endured eighteen months of increasing harassment, which had created "an ambient hum of menace in her life, albeit one that she has mostly been able to ignore."
A lot of this seems overly long, and as the first thing in the main article, doesn't really seem to get into the details of the controversy really well. Propose eliminating a lot of it and merging it with the following paragraphs, as so:
In August 2014, Zoe Quinn's former boyfriend Eron Gjoni wrote a blog post, described by The New York Times as a "strange, rambling attack", containing a series of allegations, among which was that Quinn had an affair with Kotaku journalist Nathan Grayson. Although not alleged by Gjoni, several detractors used information contained in the blog post to falsely accuse Quinn of using her relationship with Grayson to garner a positive review of her game, Depression Quest. Kotaku's editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo affirmed the existence of a relationship, but clarified that Grayson had not written anything about Quinn after the relationship had commenced in early April and had never reviewed her games, though he did acknowledge a piece written by Grayson that included a mention of Quinn and Depression Quest on March 31, before the two began their relationship. A number of commentators in and outside the gaming industry denounced the attack on Quinn as misogynistic and unfounded.
Prior to these allegations, Quinn was subject to hate mail and harsh criticism, and as a result of these allegations, Quinn and her family were subjected to a virulent harassment campaign including doxxing, threats of rape, hacks of her Tumblr, Dropbox, and Skype accounts, and death threats. She began staying with friends out of fear that she would be tracked to her home. Quinn told the BBC, "Before had a name, it was nothing but trying to get me to kill myself, trying to get people to hurt me, going after my family. There is no mention of ethics in journalism at all outside of making the same accusation everybody makes towards any successful woman; that clearly she got to where she is because she had sex with someone." Quinn told The New Yorker that she feels sympathy for her attackers because they have "deep-seeded loathing in themselves." In an interview with MSNBC's Ronan Farrow Daily, she said she regards her Gamergate detractors as becoming increasingly irrelevant in the industry due to the democratization of game-making tools, but nonetheless noted later in an interview with the BBC that, "I used to go to games events and feel like I was going home... Now it's just like... are any of the people I'm currently in the room with ones that said they wanted to beat me to death?"
I feel like this keeps just about everything that was important in the first paragraph, and more focuses on the loci of the controversy, being the "zoepost" followed by the harassment that was generated from it. Comments?Ries42 (talk) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Kind of loses the history of the harassment campaign against Quinn before GG which is important. Quinn was the subject of harassment for 18 months, then there's the blog post, harassment intensifies and then things spiral even farther out of control. Strongjam (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The question I have is really, how notable is that? Even in the paragraph it is stated that the harassment amounted to
mostly been able to ignore."
This is not to say in any way that is acceptable. It just didn't seem to be that big of a deal pre-blog post. Mentioning it in the second paragraph and then moving on to the actual controversy seems to be more important as an encyclopedic endeavor, if only because if we talked about every possibly harassing communication on wikipedia, we'd be here forever. Ries42 (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)- I think it's important background information. The manure that fertilized the Quinnspiracy and later became Gamergate if you will. — Strongjam (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I see your side, I just disagree with how important it is. We have a lot of article, we need to make some cuts. A common complaint is that it is overlong and sporadic. I'm trying to identify areas we can cut without losing much of the substantive controversy. Do we really need an entire paragraph that is at best tangentially related to the subject? If it were a clear cause and effect history, that would be one thing. But it isn't. If anything, the "Quinnspiricy" stuff is barely relevant to Gamergate, which didn't really seem to gain notability until a month after the blog post. That being said, the blog post itself is the pertinent background without getting too deep into its actual details for BLP reasons, and lays the ground work for the prior ramping up of harassment before the explosion of notability in later August/early September. Everything before that can be related in a line or two. Ries42 (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think the fact Quinn was being harassed long before the Zoepost is the most important fact in the History section. I'm almost certain I once read she was harassed about her modeling work too, but can't find it again. Rhoark (talk) 06:30, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's important background information. The manure that fertilized the Quinnspiracy and later became Gamergate if you will. — Strongjam (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The question I have is really, how notable is that? Even in the paragraph it is stated that the harassment amounted to
- Is it bothering anyone else that the supposed "18 months of harassment" are based solely on one article (and nonexistent in two of the current refs) and are not supported by any actual evidence other than one extremely sympathetic New Yorker piece? In particular, the current paragraph seems to bundle the doxxing (which did happen) with actual substantive criticism of the game as one in the same, and that doesn't seem really accurate, supportable, or even properly attributed currently. The blue is better, but I'm still not seeing that bright line between criticism of the game and the later harassment. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- It bothers me that you continue to make the BLP insinuations that these well reported incidents are people lie. You need to stop. Now. And for good measure retract your statement above to show you are capable of understanding BLP and are not merely a troll. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstand BLP, but that doesn't look like TO saying anyone is lying about anything, just that both positive and negative information about a living person needs to be properly sourced and supported before it is offered as fact on Misplaced Pages. Isn't it you who often says the "objective truth" doesn't matter, only what the reliable sources say, and if the reliable sources all support one thing and talk about one thing, it is both notable and supported? Wouldn't it be WP:Undue, and a violation of WP:BLP to cite something only one source states, no matter how reliable, and that is not reported often, as it pertains to the controversy, in other reliable sources? Ries42 (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have made no insinuation of the sort. We need evidence to include information, right? We have no reliable evidence to support the claim being made, so why are we including it? Simply because someone says so? I could care less if Quinn is being truthful or not, it's utterly irrelevant to the question or topic at hand. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- No we do NOT need to see the vicious harassment that has been sent to Quinn - we only need a reliable source to present that she has been harassed AND WE HAVE THAT IN SPADES. For you to continue to attempt to implicate that Quinn is fabricating is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. You need to stop NOW and you need to retract your implications above to show you have come vague comprehension of BLP or we will be going to the Sanctions Board. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm assuming you're not talking to me, correct? Ries42 (talk) 23:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, this is just a common thread with him and me for whatever reason. It'll stop eventually. Thargor Orlando (talk) 00:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've done nothing of the sort. Please stop making unfounded accusations toward me. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Since we don't need to see vicious harassment, how about we remove the quotebox about giving her brain damage Rhoark (talk) 06:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm assuming you're not talking to me, correct? Ries42 (talk) 23:59, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- No we do NOT need to see the vicious harassment that has been sent to Quinn - we only need a reliable source to present that she has been harassed AND WE HAVE THAT IN SPADES. For you to continue to attempt to implicate that Quinn is fabricating is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. You need to stop NOW and you need to retract your implications above to show you have come vague comprehension of BLP or we will be going to the Sanctions Board. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- The evidence is The New Yorker piece. It's a WP:RS and unless another RS contradicts the statement then we don't have any reason to question it. — Strongjam (talk) 23:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's fine. I'm pretty sure WP:BLP wants more than one reliable source before stating something as fact about a living person, especially when taking into account WP:AVOIDVICTIM, but whether it is objectively true (and we assume it is completely true) is irrelevant to the question of whether to keep it in the article. The argument is that its irrelevant here because of WP:Notability and WP:Undue. It doesn't need as much exposition because at best, this part of it is only tangentially related to Gamergate. Ries42 (talk) 23:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've add a few more sources to the paragraph. I'm sure more could be found if we had to. — Strongjam (talk) 01:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- And> The fact that all these sources are from September or later implies the harassment pre-gamergate isn't notable. And the sources added aren't particularly that big a deal. CS Monitor:
Gamergate came about more than three months ago after a computer programmer named Eron Gjoni posted a 3,000 word screed, complete with details of private conversations, that chronicled the break-up of his relationship with Zoe Quinn, a then-relatively obscure independent game developer and feminist.
Not notable until after the zoepost. PCGamer doesn't seem relevant at all. The Guardian is semi-relevent,She withdrew the game, only to resubmit later, more determined. This time, it was approved by the Steam Greenlight community, but the hate never stopped. Looking back, it’s obvious how starkly premonitory this all was. The tinder for Gamergate had been there for months. All it needed was a lit match,
but even then, its all notable as related to Gamergate. Its not notable in and of itself, and its relation to Gamergate doesn't need an entire paragraph. Seriously.Ries42 (talk) 01:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)- It's notable in the context of GG. I'm not saying it needs it's own article. I didn't add the PCGamer article, that's just there for dating the greenlight addition. From the csmonitor
She'd been the subject of collective digital punishment before, in late 2013 and again earlier this year when Quinn’s game landed a spot on Steam, a popular online marketplace.
From The Daily DotQuinn was already a loathed figure among conservative male gamers who felt her Depression Quest hadn’t earned its success.
The pre-GG harassment is important context. — Strongjam (talk) 01:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC)- Barely. Even in these articles its a side note. It shouldn't be more than a side note here. There is a lot to go over, if we can't cut even this insignificant side note down to a line or two, what hope have we for the rest of this mess? Ries42 (talk) 01:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Article needs better prose but it doesn't need to be shorter. We're at 40Kb of prose which isn't WP:TOOBIG. — Strongjam (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Which puts us at the outer limit. We add much more and it needs to consider division. However, just because it doesn't need to be divided just yet doesn't mean we should keep around information with only tertiary relevance. Ries42 (talk) 01:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Article needs better prose but it doesn't need to be shorter. We're at 40Kb of prose which isn't WP:TOOBIG. — Strongjam (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Barely. Even in these articles its a side note. It shouldn't be more than a side note here. There is a lot to go over, if we can't cut even this insignificant side note down to a line or two, what hope have we for the rest of this mess? Ries42 (talk) 01:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- It's notable in the context of GG. I'm not saying it needs it's own article. I didn't add the PCGamer article, that's just there for dating the greenlight addition. From the csmonitor
- And> The fact that all these sources are from September or later implies the harassment pre-gamergate isn't notable. And the sources added aren't particularly that big a deal. CS Monitor:
- I've add a few more sources to the paragraph. I'm sure more could be found if we had to. — Strongjam (talk) 01:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- So if the evidence is simply "someone said it," shouldn't we attribute it directly? Especially since it's sourced to one single piece? Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- That's fine. I'm pretty sure WP:BLP wants more than one reliable source before stating something as fact about a living person, especially when taking into account WP:AVOIDVICTIM, but whether it is objectively true (and we assume it is completely true) is irrelevant to the question of whether to keep it in the article. The argument is that its irrelevant here because of WP:Notability and WP:Undue. It doesn't need as much exposition because at best, this part of it is only tangentially related to Gamergate. Ries42 (talk) 23:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have made no insinuation of the sort. We need evidence to include information, right? We have no reliable evidence to support the claim being made, so why are we including it? Simply because someone says so? I could care less if Quinn is being truthful or not, it's utterly irrelevant to the question or topic at hand. Thargor Orlando (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstand BLP, but that doesn't look like TO saying anyone is lying about anything, just that both positive and negative information about a living person needs to be properly sourced and supported before it is offered as fact on Misplaced Pages. Isn't it you who often says the "objective truth" doesn't matter, only what the reliable sources say, and if the reliable sources all support one thing and talk about one thing, it is both notable and supported? Wouldn't it be WP:Undue, and a violation of WP:BLP to cite something only one source states, no matter how reliable, and that is not reported often, as it pertains to the controversy, in other reliable sources? Ries42 (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- It bothers me that you continue to make the BLP insinuations that these well reported incidents are people lie. You need to stop. Now. And for good measure retract your statement above to show you are capable of understanding BLP and are not merely a troll. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any need for significant cuts to the article at the moment -- especially not in the history section, which is one of the best-written and most informative parts. Some of the quote-heavy sections could use work, but I'm not seeing any real reason to make such major overhauls to the parts you're talking about here. --Aquillion (talk) 05:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Some things that are not really worth relating at all: "interactive fiction browser game", that the game was made with Twine, what its website was
- Could be said with fewer words: players didn't like the game, she got harassed Rhoark (talk) 06:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- How about cutting Quinn told The New Yorker that she feels sympathy for her attackers because they have "deep-seeded loathing in themselves" - seems like an attack to me. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:17, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
a modest proposal
Remove every comment from anyone which is simply aimed at deprecating someone else rather than advancing understanding of the issues involved. State that "attacks were mutual" cutting out anything more than actual statements of fact insofar as any source has tried to look at the simple facts. I know this seems radical, and will cut the article size by 75%, but seriously fifty years from now, will the current article make any sense at all to readers? Collect (talk) 14:26, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Such a change could be done to a number of different results. I suggest drafting the changes, at least for a section. HalfHat 14:33, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
100 years from now I'd hope that the reader would at least understand that there was a wave of death and rape threats against women in gaming. To dismiss that by watering down or pretending that there were two factions, both of which engaged in equally reprehensible conduct and to the same degree, we'd have to remove the facts as discussed by the reliable sources. --TS 15:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except, unless you've been very sheltered and unaware of G.I.F.T. the narrative 100 years from now will be "it was normal in 2014 for ill-tempered young people to send disagreeable comments to each other. Certain professional victims made use of these threats to garner public sympathy, fame and all the benefits that come with this." Are you unaware that violent threats (generally empty and meaningless) are a normal everyday occurrence, of little note to people who've been online for a while? Because they are. Spend 5 minutes on a lightly moderated site. "Violent threat made by anonymous internet user" is as meaningful a headline as "Two-legged man discovered". Bramble window (talk) 18:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- There are more than two factions, many of which are issuing threats based on mistaken attributions of who made threats in the first place. More and more RS's are figuring this out as time goes on.Rhoark (talk) 17:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Attacks were mutual" does not even remotely reflect the situation. Artw (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
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