Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:04, 15 July 2006

• Archive 1
• Archive 2
• Archive 3 - mainly focussed on the definition of Scandinavia.

Done yet?

As someone who's never edited this particular article.. Are you guys done yet? The above discussion is long, tedious, and largely irrelevant. The only thing relevant is that in English, the term "Scandinavia" is both used to refer to Denmark-Norway-Sweden and in a broader sense that encompasses Finland and Iceland. Any number of dictionaries will tell you that, and dictionaries are written to reflect actual usage, not political or cultural history.

The purpose of the article and page are not to determine what the "correct" usage of the term is. It is to define and explain the existing usages. That means both explaining the common history and culture of D-N-S but also how Finland and Iceland fit into this. Because that's what people are referring to when they say "Scandinavian" in English. --BluePlatypus 01:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Front material

It seems pretty well agreed that the front material, even though rather well written, is factually inadequate. I note especially mention of a dialect continuum. But Finnish and Lapp are in no way continuous with the Nordic languages, not even being in the same group. As for the ties, well, that same paragraph indicates the ties are no closer than any other nations at peace. Moreover there seems to be a taboo on the Russians, even though Murmansk is pretty close to the Norwegian border. The Russians aren't in the hypothetical continuum, either.

My take on the commentary is that people want to see some recognition of the fact that "Scandinavia" is a term with many meanings. The current write-up presents it more unified and monolithic than it is. So, I am going to jump in here and make it more as it is. I know this is a controversial topic. Maybe I will regret getting involved. But, the tags indicate some dissatisfaction and somebody has to do it. If you think you can do better, go for it! I for one don't mind at all, as long as you are not a vandal.Dave 14:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

After the discussion on my talk page, I did a major rewrite of the front material. After the user discussion I learned from the article Scandinavian Peninsula that it only consists of Norway and Sweden. If Finland is included it is called Fennoscandinavia. I guess I didn't pay attention in that geography lesson. I believe it to be the most fair description based on what a supermajority might define it as. Any comments? --Maitch 20:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Woah, what a major overhaul this article has undergone! Nice to see that someone felt like being bold and energetic enough to freshen things up. Some problematic phrases remain or have been (re)inserted concerning what the toponym in question means, and to whom. If you take a gander at the disambiguation page and the archived discussion, two to three fairly clear definitions will crystalize:

• definition 1 = DK, NO, SE
• definition 2a = the Nordic region (AX, DK, FI, FO, GL, IS, NO, SE, SJ)
• definition 2b = the Nordic region minus GL and SJ

My impression is that definitions 2a and 2b are hardly ever applied within the Nordic societies themselves, except by tourists and other visitors to the region (especially 2a). Definition 1 is predominant within the Nordic countries.

While the initiative is commendable, the current introduction is far too clumsy and insecure of itself and uses far too many words to briefly state what the rest of article is supposed to expand on. My recommendation is to shorten to introduction to just a handful of sentences that give definitions 1, 2a and 2b above (see more tips on article structure here and here). Cheers and good luck. :) // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 22:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm against Scandinavia=2a or 2b. I don't believe that we should write something that in my opion is very wrong. The Nordic region is the correct term for that. --Maitch 18:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Maitch, the argument in favour of including the wider definition is the fact that some English speakers will use the terms Scandinavia and Nordic region interchangeably, especially English speakers outside Europe. This is the English Misplaced Pages, which is the sole justification for adding the definition equating these two regions. The indigenous Nordic definition is also used by English speakers. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 20:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, my opion is that we shouldn't teach things that is wrong, and I'm not going to change it. I wouldn't add this unless there is a supermajority for it. Maybe we should start a poll. --Maitch 21:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In general Scandinavia would be the 3 contries consisting of Denmark Sweden and Norway. Simply because those three contries share language base. Which means that they understand eachother despite the contries. People from Finland does not share this communication language with the Scandinavia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.83.190.130 (talk • contribs)

Hey presto, I have now changed the lead as per my own recommendations above and in accordance with the guidelines cited. I strongly advise against having identical content in the articles on Scandinavia and the Nordic countries, nor would I approve of merging the two articles. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 07:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, now we are back to square one. The reason for my (far from perfect) version was that to many English speaking users objected to not having Finland as a part of Scandinavia. As much as I agree with the your version it doesn't really solve the dispute. --Maitch 13:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But it is at least accurate now, since Finland isn't actually part of Scandinavia... CLW

We are going in circles. I think the only way to get out this dispute is by a poll. --Maitch 13:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I do think that the latest version works very well - it accurately defines Scandinavia as Sweden, Denmark and Norway, but also states extremely prominently (i.e. in the second sentence) that many also use the term to describe what is more accurately the Nordic region. Surely you can't ask for more than that? CLW 13:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Maitch, what I did was remove unnecessary details from the lead in accordance with the guidelines on how to properly structure articles. Much of the text added in the past few days was actually just copuous repetitions of material found further down in the sections on history, etymology, languages, culture and political cooperation and institutions. I discarded or shortened many of the sentences recently placed in the intro because they were missplaced (i.e. the overwhelming massive explanations and speculations did not belong in the lead paragraphs) and also due to their excessive insecurity, nebulosity and speculative nature, not because they were factually incorrect.

Now, as for your suggestion that "the Icelanders don't want to be in Scandinavia where Denmark is located", but that "at least one Finn does": This is an unsourced claim that contradicts what all those encyclopedic sources cited in this posting say. Most of these sources state that Finland and Iceland are both "optional", "usual", "occasional", or "common" inclusions.

You say that we are back to square one, but if I interpret your postings correctly, you also seem to oppose having the two articles in question treat their subject matter as if they were synonyms. I think that it is essential to inform the reader that the article is not about the Nordic countries, since that would be tantamount to having two separate articles with basically identical content. If the reader wants to read about the Nordic countries he or she will promptly follow the disambiguation to that article instead. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 17:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What I said about Iceland was "I don't know about Iceland" and "The statement is at least without a source.". Please get your facts straight. I personally don't mind your edit, because you didn't write that Scandinavia equals the Nordic Region. You must know that the current version of the article is the same as what started the dispute. Finland is not included now. I am merely trying to speak for both sides in order to end this dispute. Therefore I started the poll. It seems the only way to make a decision. --Maitch 17:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for misquoting you. But you are incorrect in saying Finland is not included in the currect article. The text proclaims very clearly that Finland, being a Nordic country, is sometimes considered a Scandinavian country, although not by any of the Nordic countries themselves (including Finland herself). // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 18:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Could you please quote the part, because I can't seem to find it. --Maitch 18:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Just for you: Finland is not included now. =) // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 19:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

A couple of comments:

• I've always though of Scandinavia as designating the countries where the "Scandinavian languages" are primarily spoken - i.e. Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Thus, Scandinavia is really a linguistic/cultural identity. The introduction does not mention this.
• I've never heard of Finland being defined as a Scandinavian country. To mention this possibility in the intro. text and the map will only risk confusing readers.

Map requested

I have put up a request for a map of Scandinavia. The current introduction is not acceptable, as it fails to distinguish between the concise native usage and alternative foreign understandings. In other words, it does not mention the fact that none of the Nordic countries and territories use the word "Scandinavia" to mean anything else than the three monarchies (even though this usage may be encountered in the English language even in Nordic sources). Also, the claim advanced here that the Finns and the Icelandes "want" to be part of Scandinavia (implying that the Scandinavians proper "won't let them"), appears to be unfounded and unsourced, as yet. Therefore, the intro needs to be specific about the expanded usage being associated with speakers of English and other languages (which seems reasonable enough, seeing as this is the English WP). I will try to commission one of our fine amateur cartographers to design a map similar to the ones at Central Africa and Central Asia.

I suggest three colours:

• dark hue = the intra-Nordic usage: the three monarchies
• medium hue = the extended usage: Nordic region, except Greenland and Svalbard
• light hue = the maximal extent: synonymous with the entire Nordic region

Ideas? Suggestions? // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 18:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we should solve the dispute before we draw a map. I don't know about Iceland. They seem to want to distance themselves from Denmark, so I would guess they don't consider themselves Scandinavian. The statement is at least without a source. I've been to Finland and have heard one Finn claiming that Finland is part of Scandinavia. I've also heard other Finns claiming the opposite. --Maitch 13:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This map is based on the above definitions for dark/med/light hue -- Astrokey44|talk 00:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for creating the map, Astro. I would actually prefer a visually clearer map (i.e. sharper and better colour contrast) and I think reducung the number of "optional extras" to just one category will suffice, since English encyclopedias mention only two "levels" of inclusion: core and periphery. Perhaps you could use this image as the basis of a Scandinavia map, showing the mainland portion of the three monarchies in a dark shade and the remaining areas of the Nordic Council members in a lighter shade? Thanks again for helping out with this. =J BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 14:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

ok I'll see what I can do.. although Im not sure that there should be only 2 levels - Greenland isnt as often included as Iceland and Finland is it? -- Astrokey44|talk 16:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Shetland and Orkney should be in yellow too, since they were tradional nordic lands, ceded in an treaty some generations ago. Their ethnicity, culture and habits are still completely nordic, only language was lost. They use nordic flags and generally feel nordic :) People here agree? Richard George|talk 11:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC+1)

Poll: What is Scandinavia

After a lot of debate (see archive 3) I think the only way to find a consensus is by voting. The issue is what the article should describe Scandinavia as.

Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.

• A: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), continental Norway, and Sweden
  1. This is what I believe is correct. --Maitch 13:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  2. This is what I also believe to be correct, as a non-Scandinavian who has studied Scandinavian-related subjects at undergraduate and postgraduate levels. CLW 13:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  3. This is what I also believe to be the correct definition for Scandinavia. However, I would favor the creation of a term such as "Nordica" or "Norlandia" to refer to the Nordic region as a whole, i.e. encompassing all of the lands included in "D", as this broader grouping seems to be acquiring increasing importance as a sub-region of Europe. Polaris999 01:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

     We cannot create these words here of course. Piet 10:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

  4. As a Norwegian I am in favour of this since it is factually correct. I live in North America and am aware that many North Americans refer to the Nordic Region as Scandinavia, and this should of course be noted in the article (as it is in the version I read today).--fred 15:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC) - Does this mean you are really voting for option G? -- Astrokey44|talk 00:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  5. The meaning of the term. --Anjoe 22:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• B: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), Finland, continental Norway, and Sweden

• C: Denmark (excluding autonomous regions), Finland, Iceland, continental Norway, and Sweden

• D: Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden with all regions included

• E: Mention both A and B in the article
  1. This is my compromise. --Maitch 13:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• F: Mention A, B, and C in the article

• G: Mention A, B, C, and D in the article
  1. Finland and Iceland are mentioned in the Britannica as possibly being part of Scandinavia, and other sources as from the links in the archives. If there are several views on the subject, they should be mentioned. -- Astrokey44|talk 00:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  2. Include all points of view; per policy. Whether Finland or Iceland or the Faroes are Scandinavian depends on exactly what subject (and time-period) are being discussed. For some choices, Estonia, Yorkshire, Dublin or Normandy are defensibly Scandinavian. From a strictly geographical point of view, Denmark is not part of the Scandinavian Peninsula. A sentence or two in each doubtful case should bring out why X is Scandinavian, and why it isn't/ Septentrionalis 04:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  3. It's OK to mention that A is what Scandiavians and Finns think. But also mention B, C and D and explain who thinks that way.Richard 05:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  4. Agree with Septentrionalis. This seems to be the best possible solution. Mention all povs and let the reader make up his mind. Also this would be more factually correct as the average reader would understand that the notion of Scandinavia could be different depending on the context.gunslotsofguns 22:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)]
  5. It seems obvious that all views should be mentioned. It is definitely not uncommon to categorize Finland and Iceland as Scandinavian. A quick glance at the talk archive doesn't show any authorative body that has the right to determine what Scandinavia is, so IMHO the different views should be mentioned (like here). There should also be a page Scandinavia (peninsula). Piet 10:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  6. Scandinavia is offcourse just Swe/Den/Nor, but enough people believe that it includes Fin/Ice, so a mention is warranted, but point them in the direction of Nordic countries. BTW this vote is evil and silly. --Eivind 19:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
• H: Abiding by NPOV is not something you can opt out of by voting. This poll has no merit and, like most polls on article content, is evil.
  1. Peter 15:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
  2. This is true too. Septentrionalis 04:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  3. Boivie 06:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC) Does this article has to cover all Scandinavias? Why not use this page to describe Scandinavia as Sweden, Norway and Denmark? And then describe the broader Scandinavia at the page Nordic countries?
  4. Yup, further discussion is needed Robdurbar 08:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  5. Deciding on content matter by polling rarely settles controversies. —Gabbe 17:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  6. Polls are a hopeless way to solve content disputes. --Bjarki 18:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
  7. I've seen good polls, but this isnt it. The question is unsuitable for a poll as the only neutral answer can be: there is no general agreement (meaning the actual world outside the wiki as well). I'd support a map (as suggested above), but only if it is limited to factual actual divisions, such as UN regions, political alliances (such as the Central Africa map. The Minister of War 13:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
     • Euhmmm, having checked the dates, the poll already seems dead. I just clikced the link on Misplaced Pages:Current surveys and assumed it was still live. The Minister of War 13:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

LOOK IT IS VERY SIMPLE DENMARK NORWAY SWEDEN = SCANDINAVIA, DENMARK NORWAY SWEDEN + FINLAND + ICELAND= "THE NORTH" OR "THE NORDIC COUNTRIES" THIS IS ABSOLUTE FACT AND NO FINNISH WANNABE CAN CHANGE THAT. (171.64.215.155 02:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC))

Discussion

I think voting is a very bad idea. The discussion is never-ending because there's no clear-cut answer. The article should represent this, not chose a single POV. Fornadan (t) 15:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then vote for E, F, G, or make some new definition that you could vote for. --Maitch 15:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As Forn points out, we are not about to decide exactly what Scandinavia means, because that's not our job. Votes on article content is almost always bad, especially when they're hopelessly complicated. Consensus is not something you're supposed to try once or twice and then give up in favor of editing-by-committee. It's one of Misplaced Pages's most important priniciples, so keep trying and make extra efforts to be genuinely NPOV and give due article space for reasonably widespead views on the issue.

Peter 15:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

After having conducting a vote on third world countries I would have to agree with this - you cant use a vote to determine what something should be - it can be seen as original research. If there are different point of views on the subject, they should be mentioned, rather than voting on which point of view to use. -- Astrokey44|talk 00:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, my definition would be (A).

However, I agree that Misplaced Pages prefers consensus to democracy.

Voting involves the majority telling the minority to shut up.

This is evil.

You should document all meanings in common usage with perhaps some indication to which ones are most common (and where).

For example, I would guess that most Danes, Swedes and Norwegians don't consider Finland part of Scandinavia.

What do the Finns think?

Who thinks Finland is part of Scandinavia? Probably non-Scandinavians. So say so.

You could explain why some meanings are considered flawed. For example, I don't fully understand why Finland is not part of Scandinavia except that I would guess that Finns are either racially or culturally different from Scandinavians. Their language is very different from Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, right?

So, why include Finland? Just because it's geographically contiguous?

And why include Iceland? Because of language and culture?

Just explain it to us and stop trying to decide what's right.

Let the reader decide. Maybe what's most useful to the reader is understanding the different meanings so that they can be aware that when one person says "Scandinavia", that person may mean something different from what another person means when saying "Scandinavia"?

That could be far more useful than trying to insist that the reader adopt YOUR definition of Scandinavia.

Capeesh?

Richard 01:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

(sheepishly) Maybe I should have read the article first.

Now that I have done so, I would vote for keeping it more or less the way it is now. The current text more or less does what I said it should do in my message above. I will say that it is a bit confusing in the way it is presented.

I still don't understand why Finland is not always considered part of Scandinavia. Is it race, culture and language? Or is it because it was part of Russia for a while?

Don't just tell us what the different definitions are. Tell us how they came into being.

Richard 01:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer is not race, but 19th century romantic nationalism as already explained (briefly) in the article.

In-depth: Ethnicity and ethnogenesis are primarily seen as social constructs within societies, with only limited correllation to racial "stock". Examples of this: The modern Finns are an ethnic group composed of a combination of Norse and Finnic populations that started merging in the 1200s, but for convenience they are now simply referred to as ethnic Finns. Similarly, the modern Greenlanders are an ethnic group composed of Alaskan Inuit who settled Greenland in the 1200s onwards and "West Scandinavians" who began settling there in the 1700s (none of the earlier populations, the Dorset people and Norse Greenlanders, are likely to have passed on their genes to the present inhabitants). The Greenlanders are not considered a Scandinavian nation even though most are descended from Scandinavians. The Icelanders, the Shetlanders and the Faroese are mainly descended from Scandinavians and Celts, but this does not make these nations ethnically Celtic in the modern sense, although arguably genetically. The population of northern Scandinavia is largely a mix of Norse and Lappic stock, but modern Scandinavian ethnic groups outnumber the ethnic Sami nearly everywhere. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 18:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• Vox pop via WP:CS: Scandinavian countries are those countries whose flags are based on those crosses offset to the left. Regards, David Kernow 10:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Åland

In my opinion, this region should be regarded as part of Scandinavia in the article, since it's historically and linguistically linked to Sweden rather than to Finland, to which it currently belongs. What are your thoughts? —Nightstallion (?) 12:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

All of Finland and parts of Russia and Estonia are historically "linked" to Sweden (as is Saint Barthélemy, et al.), and some parts of Sweden have their historical links to other peoples and other states. Some Ålanders will probably say that their archipelago forms a subset of Swedophone Finland, but according to this talk page most consider themselves to be a separate nation in its own right, similar to the Faroes or the Isle of Man. It is a non-sovereign member of the Nordic Council, with its own national identity and with its own NUTS-code separate from that of the mainland. Unlike Gotland, Åland is unlikely to be considered an extension of the Kingdom of Sweden, nor of the Scandinavian region, perhaps because of the two centuries of separation (as the article already states, it wasduring this very period that Scandinavia came to mean what it does today in the five Nordic states, viz after the Napoleonic Wars). // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 15:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

shrugs I knew most of that, but I was just throwing in that I'd expect it to be considered part of Scandinavia. Technically, "Scandinavian" mostly carries the connotation of linguistics in German-speaking regions; at least to the best of my knowledge, the Scandinavistics Institute of Vienna University is concerned with Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Faroe, Åland, Iceland, but neither Finland nor Greenland... —Nightstallion (?) 11:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Terminology Section

The problem with the article at the moment is that it attempts to clarify the meaning right through. Why not have a short terminology paragraph at its opening? Many non-Scandinavians would be surprised to here Finland and the Faroes not included in 'Scandinavia' - something to explain this is necessary, I feel. Whilst such issues shouldn't bog down the article (SeeBritish Isles for an aritcle where this often happens), ideally a single paragraph can deal with it at the start. Robdurbar 08:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Such a paragraph exists at Nordic countries. Perhaps it could simply be pasted into this one, as well. // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 16:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Article content rather than definitions

At the risk of sounding like a senile professor who repeats himself ad infinitum: Is there really any valid case for having two articles with identical content? Not really, right? Is a merger is order? Hardly. So why not just settle for the basic structure of the current version, which extremely prominently states, for the convenience of the reader, that the content of this particular article is about the three monarchies, but that many English speakers elsewhere will refer to the Nordic countries and associated territories as Scandinavia, and that this expanded usage is solidly documented and sourced in many English language encyclopedias and dictionaries. And as for the concern voiced further up that voting on a definition is a bad thing because that could never alter the meanings of a word: That is hopelessly beside the point here. The goal - I assume - was not to have a majority decide on what something means or should mean, but simply to vote on what subject matter the article is to focus on. I recommend that the content not be made identitical to that of the "other" article, since that would be a waste of a separate page. So here's a simpler poll for ya:

Do you have specific objections of the current structure and content, particularly the sections on usage and terminology? What can specifically be improved in said sections? Can disambiguation be made any more explicit? Please vote yes or no followed by optional answers to the questions. I'll start:

• no // Big Adamsky • BA's talk page 15:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
• no --jmak 12:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
• yes J.R. Hercules 13:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion 2

T'is still evil. We concluded that the above poll is just as bad as any. Just please stop trying to push decisions and let consensual discussion and gradual editing solve the problem. This isn't Gdansk and we're not going to make formal decision. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. / Peter 11:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Isotalo, do you really genuinely feel that you are being helpful by bombarding this talk page with those red herring links to guidelines, recommendations and essays? No one (I think) is questioning the process of how to resolve disputes. Most of us are aware of the inability of a talk page poll to change any real-world definitions and usage. However, in order to get a crystal-clear picture of what the main dispute is about, polls are a useful tool used in many talk pages to decide how to best structure an article. The poll initiated by myself was explicitly about structure. I have taken the liberty of noting that you wish to demonstratively refrain from casting your vote (just as I refrained from voting in the earlier poll on definitions further up on this page). I have also moved your insights down here to this section called "discussion". If you would care to help out, simply give relevant advice, or - better yet - list some good external links or book titles that can be added to the list of reliable sources that define and delimit the meaning of the word "Scandinavia" as used in English. Specifically, if you can cite some solid reasoning as to why the two articles (Scandinavia and Nordic countries) should remain seperate or be merged, please be bold and state your sourced findings right here. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You're very aggressive. There's nothing the poll will achieve that a good discussion won't solve better. I find it distracting and I'm doing that because I really believe it's harmful, not because I want to duke it out with you.

And where did you get "essay" from? This is as close to official policy you can get without actually being there. There is consensus for opposing polls and you're just being polemic if you want to call it a red herring.

Peter 18:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to Big Adamasky and other's strange assertion, Scandinavia is not considered to also include Finland and Iceland solely by native English speakers; a simple review of ordinary newspaper articles from around the world reveal that pretty much every continent in the world considers Finland and Iceland to be both "Scandinavian" and a part of Scandinavia. Also, as has already been documented even in this ongoing discusion among the few Wikipedians who've participated, there is NOT a widely-held consensus within the Nordic states that "Scandinavia" is really only N, S, and D. I've been promising for a while to post a part two of my argument from a few months ago, which should settle the argument once and for all. This time I will definitely post that this weekend on the discussion, and maybe even change the article itself. Essentially, I'm going to edit the lead paragraph to reflect the usual definition of "Scandinavia" as found in dictionaries and encyclopedias: that Scandinavia is a cultural region considered to consist of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, and sometimes also of Finland, Iceland, the Faroe Islands. And I will insert the flags of Finland and Iceland to be displayed immediately below or just to the side of (not separated a long way's away) those of N, D, and F. J.R. Hercules 13:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Hercules. You are the one who initially attempted to equate these two toponyms about four months ago. Do feel free to add flags and info that might improve the article (especially its lead section), and don't forget to be specific and brief and to document your suggestions for a substantially different version. As before, your own assertion that the two terms are used interchangeably within the regions themselves has never been properly documented, so that is what you will need to focus on in your quest to convince. (I, for one, continue to challenge that unsourced claim.) Also, you may wish to update yourself in the archives of this talk page, where the past four months' debate is stored. And finally, the various policies concerning how Misplaced Pages works might also be worth reviewing. Cheers and welcome back. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't do the flag thang, please. It just looks odd and slightly nationalist. We can use normal wikilinks, just like in any other situation.

Peter 11:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that flags are rather unnecessary for such a short bulleted list. But your weak argumentation begs a response: What you personally consider to esthetically "look odd" or to have "slight" connotations of ethnic nationalism or other identity politics is irrelevant to any non-biographical WP article (remember the N in NPOV you were talking about recently?). But more importantly, miniature national flags or visual symbols of other locations, peoples, institutions, ideologies, movements and communities are frequently seen in WP articles containing charts and lists, no doubt due to their qualities as conveyors of graphic communication, thus aiding visual perception and recognition in an otherwise dull list. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been quietly watching this debate from the sideline for some time and would now just like to add my Icelandic perspective although it may be a bit late. The term Scandinavia (Skandinavía) is rarely used by Icelanders. A Google search for webpages in Icelandic yields 11.700 results for Skandinavía while Norðurlönd (Norden) yields 260.000 results. It is my perception that when the term Scandinavia is used, it is to refer to the mainland Nordic countries but not Iceland, Faroes or Greenland. However I do believe that when Icelanders communicate with English-speaking foreigners they are more likely to refer to Iceland as a part of Scandinavia and themselves as 'Scandinavians', perhaps out of believe that foreigners are more familiar with the term Scandinavia than with Nordic or because they themselves are not aware of the English translation of Norðurlönd.

As for the Finland question, I had not even considered this matter before this dispute started. There isn't much connection between Iceland and Finland so I guess few Icelanders find the need to define Finland geographically.

I did look up Skandinavía in both the Icelandic dictionary and the Icelandic encyclopedia (yes there is only one of each). The dictionary gave me: The Scandinavian Peninsula, Sweden and Norway while the encyclopedia had an unusually short entry: a: The Scandinavian Peninsula. b: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. --Bjarki 19:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Great to see someone else providing some sources, rather than just opinions. Bjarki, I take your word for your findings, but could you please also provide the source(s)? In past postings, English encyclopedic definitions and usage are documented (by myself), and just below that an anonymous user added definitions from a couple of Norwegian encyclopedias. I urge others to contribute following these examples. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Never mind about my "part 2". Somehow, in the time between my part 1 (found here) and now, my "Finland" bookmark folder, which took me two days to compile, got deleted. It basically had about a hundred links to international newspapers from all continents, where both Finland and Iceland were referred to as "Scandinavian" in news articles pertaining to different subjects. The goal was to disprove the myth that it's an American or Anglo-Saxon thing for Finland and Iceland to be considered "Scandinavian" -- people in Japan, China, Africa, and Latin America consider those countries to be Scandinavian too. Unfortunately, I can't spend the time to compile all those links again. I guess we're stuck with a brand new definition of "Scandinavia".J.R. Hercules 23:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Hundreds of links is not necessary to illustrate how the Chinese and the Latin Americans define these two regions (Scandinavia and the Nordic region, respectively). But perhaps you could spare the time to relocate just a handful? That would be seen as an indication of bonafide willingness to contribute with a perspective that you feel is not given due representation. Remember that your sources must be (reasonably) reliable, so encyclopedias and dictionaries are most appropriate. Also, note that English usage is more relevant than Chinese usage. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Without your references we're not stuck with a new definition, we just keep the existing ones. Anyway, this seems to be an argument of correct definitions and wrong usage. I might call a crystal vase a glass vase and this could be normal usage, but it wouldn't be correct. I think the article should present both what is correct and what is used (and by whom), but clearly state which is what. --Eddi (Talk) 00:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

And in that situation it is Misplaced Pages policy to follow usage, quoting the self-appointed authorities in the process. Septentrionalis 21:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The only pertinent thing here is the English-language usage, because this is the English-language Misplaced Pages. All this I-live-in-Scandinavia-and-I-know-how-we-use-the-term talk is ridiculous. How Scandinavians use the term themselves is completely irrelevant, because it's a different language then. There's nothing to debate here! If the English term "Scandinavia" referred to the Mozambique-Botswana area in English, then that's what the article would have to be about. You can't vote on what the article should contain in accordance with your personal definition of "Scandinavia". It needs to contain whatever the English term is used for. If you want to write an article on the Norwegian meaning of the term, do so, but do it in one of the Norwegian wikipedias. If you want to mention that the term refers to a different area in English compared to in the Scandinavian languages, then do so. But the focus of the article must be in accordance with English usage. If I look up an article on subject X, I want to know about what X is. In English. Not in accordance to the Swahili definition. --BluePlatypus 00:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Platypus, while I agree with your polemic rhetoric in principle, in practice I would feel "cheated" somehow if I, as a reader of an ecyclopedia article, were not informed that external English usage is ambivalent while native usage is not. It is only fair to include mention of such a difference between English usage and local usage. WP articles on toponyms, languages, organizations, institutions and ethnicities all include the endonym and the indigenous spelling/script in the first paragraph, and generally these articles also devote a seperate section (usually called something like "Terminology and etymology") to explaining any diverging meanings and naming disputes. I think you wil agree with me that the predominant definition in the Nordic countries is a lot more relevant to the English WP entry on Scandinavia than the Swahili or Chinese definition. I continue to advise against merging the WP articles "Scandinavia" and "Nordic countries", and I base this on the internet sources which I have previously listed in Talk:Scandinavia/archive3. Here's another source: According to Cassel Pocket English Dictionary, Cassel 1995 (ISBN 0-304-34639-X), Scandinavia is "Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland". This source gives no primary and secondary definitions (such as a "core" and an optional "periphery") and makes no mention of Finland or the non-sovereign Nordic territories. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 13:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Also in English there may be differences between definitions and usage, and both should be presented. And, although you were probably not commenting on my comment (since I didn't state what I think is the right and wrong usage), could you please turn down the abuse a bit? Thanks. --Eddi (Talk) 04:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Swedes do not confuse Skandinavien and Norden with one another. The former can be slightly ambiguous, but generally it just refers to Denmark-Norway-Sweden. Norden, however is unambiously "the Nordic countries".

Here are some quotes:

from Encyclopædia Britannica, Scandinavia:

historically Scandia, part of northern Europe, generally held to consist of the two countries of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Norway and Sweden, with the addition of Denmark. Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland on geologic and economic grounds and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on the grounds that their inhabitants speak North Germanic

from dictionary.com, Scandinavia:

A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.

from Nationalencyklopedin, Skandinavien:

Skandinavien, dels samlingsnamn på länderna Sverige, Norge och Danmark, ibland också Finland, dels benämning på Skandinaviska halvön. Stundom används benämningen något oprecist om Norden.

my translation:

"Scandinvia, a common term for the countries of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, occasionally also including Finland. Also used as a term for the Scandinavian Peninsula. Occasionally used somewhat vaguely about the Nordic countries."

I can't really see any problem that merits the POV-template right now except that it should be mentioned that the inclusion of Finland is quite common, though not more common than Denmark-Norway-Sweden. Since the sources obviously support this and since the only protests seem to have been based on personal opinion, I'm going to be bold by rewriting the lead to include the alternative extent of the region and removing the sign.

Peter 18:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Good work on the lead, Isotalo. I see no major inaccuracies in it currently (i.e. our definition does not deviate from those found in other encyclopedias). Thanks for your effort! BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 10:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Wooops, I spoke to fast. The version referred to had somehow missed any mention of the distinction between concise Nordic usage and more ambivalent external usage. I have added mention of this in the form of pasting in the "Etymology and terminology" section from the article on Nordic countries, and I have renamed that section "Terminology and usage" since a separate section is devoted entirely to etymological hypotheses, speculations and likelihoods. ;) BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 11:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Scandinavia, a common term for the countries of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, occasionally also including Finland. Also used as a term for the Scandinavian Peninsula. Occasionally used somewhat vaguely about the Nordic countries." Peter is right.Finland is original by its culture but has too a mix with the Swedish culture.What about the history of colonisation, there is forcely inheritances:lutheranism, urbanism, Swedish as 2nd official language,Swedish minority included in Oland isles.So Finland takes part to Scandinavia.

The foreign ministers of Sweden and Finland gave this press release in 18.12.2002 . The link goes to the Foreign Ministry of Finland's pages. Notice the three different language versions - FIN/SWE/ENG. In the FIN version the word 'Pohjoismaat' (Norden) is used in a sentence. The SWE version says 'Skandinavien' and the ENG again 'Nordic' in the same sentence, implying that 'Scandinavia' and 'the Nordic Countries' are being used interexchangeably even on offficial level in Scandinavia. I don't know if it is correct to use the term 'vague' about official statements given by two foreign ministers together. Prefixcaz 16:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's a few other links to European Union's official documents regarding Scandinavia. The documents are in Swedish and/or Danish, as I deliberately searched them from the EU's SE&DK pages, so please do your searches with the term 'Skandinavien'. A decision on an electricity related twist in Scandinavia (DK,NO,SE,FI) - A decision on a tissue production twist in Scandinavia (SE,NO,FI,DK) - An socio-economical report names especially two capital cities in Scandinavia (Stockholm & Helsinki) - A natural gas related twist in Scandinavia (SE,FI,NO) - Agreed guidelines for co-operation in northern Scandinavia (NO,SE,FI) - Innovation report 2001 (DK,SE,FI) - Interreg in Scandinavia (DK,SE,FI,NO) . I only attached a few links to reports where it is clear that Finland is included in Scandinavia. Many other documents only talk about Scandinavia in general and it can be assumed from the context that Finland is included (bird directive, transport related reports, private entrepreneur reports etc). - Enjoy. Prefixcaz 17:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of talk about culture and of usage of the a blurred version of the term in everyday speech or even of usage by nationalistic movements, but I don't think the real reasons behind the term is considered properly (and I read the article). Scandinavia from Scania, which is the center region of the 3 countries (when you talk about travel) and the region where the historical scandinavian battles took place. To include Finland is kinda wrong, to equate Scandinavia with the Nordic Contries is just plain silly and really only for people who don't want the complexity. Why would we have two so different terms for the same thing (and two articles on the same topic)? At least we have to get rid of that horrible approximation-map or change the text. Mention the incorrect definition with Finland if someone (who?) insist, but Greenland is *not* Scandinavia. Who thinks that anyway? I mean, someone who hasn't got a clue might not differentiate between England, United Kingdom and Great Britain, but can someone tell me why there isn't an approximation-map on either of those articles? - Well, because each term has its special reference, and so do Scandinavia, Scandinavian Peninsular and the Nordic Countries. -Anjoe 23:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Anjoe, we're trying to go by what other sources write on the definition of Scandinavia and so far I think we've done a fairly good job. I would recommend that you read up on the sources cited in this thread. They support the idea that "Scandinavia" can have a rather vague definition.

Why the articles on England, the UK and Great Britain are different is not relevant to this article because they're not about Scandinavia.

Peter 15:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hierarchical versus alphabetical arrangement of Nordic states and territories

Regarding this edit by Isotalo: I see no reason why the (nearly) alphabetical sorting of the "other" countries and territories in the Nordic Region is any less neutral than a "hierarchical" arrangement based on degree of sovereignty. On the contrary, naming areas/entities in an alphabetical order is commonly used as the preferred option in lists and namedroppings of this kind. Also, erasing mention of the etymology and scientific field of usage for the term Fennoscandian is hardly contructive. Please comment on this reasoning. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 10:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean it's better to equate completely dependent territories like Svalbard with sovereign nations by listing them together rather than budging a hyper-neutral usage of alphabetical ordering?

Fennoscandia is no more a specific geological term than Scandinavia. Look it up if you want to. The etymological information, which is extremely obvious to begin with, is relevant to the separate article Fennoscandian article, not this one.

Peter 12:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

To Isotalo: Yes, Finland is a fully sovereign state. But so is one of the other Nordic entities, Iceland. Your sovereignty criteria seems like a rather flawed argument to me. Your posting above simply paraphrased the WP principle that, for many controversial topics, alphabetical ordering is seen as more neutral than sorting items or words by other criteria, such as degrees of sovereignty. Does "hyper-neutral" mean "overly objective"? If so, then I suspect that you have missed the purpose/spirit of the neutrality policy. Striving towards neutrality cannot really mean that wikipedians should somehow "tone down their NPOV" or "avoid hyper-neutrality", now can it?

Explaining how "Fennoscandia" was coined (by geologists and geomorphologists) as an alternative to "Baltic Shield" is not crucial information, but nonetheless of interest to many a reader, I would imagine. And so why suppress that information? I advocate leaving it in and stating the obvious (even what is obvious to you). I do not advocate modelling articles according to the stylistic preferences or arbitrary convictions concerning hierarchies of one single editor.

Your rationale for ranking Finnish and Icelandic sovereignty differently (or for replacing an alphetical order wwith one based on sovereignty at all) and for suppressing the origin of Fennoscandia both remain a bit confused and thus warrant further explanation from you. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 10:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

When I look up Fennoscandia in Nationalencyklopedin, it's defined as both a geographical and geological term. But I'm not supressing information, I'm just insisting it should be dealt with in the appropriate article.

Do change the wording if you really do feel that it's a neutrality problem. I used the current wording because I felt it was more intuitive. It presents the territories and nations in what I feel are logical groupings instead of listing them all at once which makes it seem as if there are just two options for interpreting Scandinavia; either the narrowest with the three core countries or the widest possible that includes everything.

Peter 20:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Nah, I guess I'll just leave it as is, since the current version seems pretty stable with few objections voiced. No major problems. Cheers! BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 21:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Languages

The following was posted on the article page by a user with the IP 80.217.234.80 : Finnish is not banned in Åland, it just is not an official language. Sweden did not impose Swedish in Finland, Swedish speaking Finns started the Swedish Peoples' Party to ensure they stil had the equal right to use their language. This section needs to be comprehensively rewritten as it is currently extremely incorrect and misleading.

That's quite true. The language section vis-a-vis Finland/Åland is very misleading. It's certainly true that Finnish is not banned in Åland! The idea is laughable. It's like saying that the use of Spanish is banned in USA. It's also true that the SFP / Swedish peoples' party was a homegrown Finnish movement by the Finns who have Swedish as their mother-tongue. 94pjg 22:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Åland-part has now been revised in accordance to the official pages and the legislation regarding the county. Prefixcaz 01:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Scandianvia - geographic and cultural

This article primarily presents Scandinavia using the geographic definition. However, the cultural (linguistic) definition which is as, if not more, valid is not presented in the article. Compare to the Swedish Wiki article on Skandinavien. It defines Scandianvia as:

• Cutlturally: the regions where the Nordic languages are spoken, i.e. Denmark, Norway and Sweden.
• Geographically: Scandinavia is defined as the Scandinavian peninsula, including NW Finland.
• Finland, Iceland, Åland, Greenland and the Faroe Island are not part of Scandinavia.

Is this something which the English article could/should be clearer about, especially in the intro text?Osli73 10:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Finland is not Scandinavia

Scandinavia is denmark norway sweden.

The nordic countries are denmark finland iceland norway and sweden

These so called links are not official in anyway, i can read them because i am swedish and they talk about makeing buissnes and are not official in the sense of what is scandinavia. All text books in denmark, norway and sweden explain what scandinavia is. Every swedish, norwegian and danish citizen knows what scandinavia is.

So either ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Text books in sweden, denmark and norway are wrong or saying finland is part of scandinavia is wrong. (Supermos 03:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC))

Article is not stating one way or the other. It says Finland is often included even in official contexts and provides links to SWE & DEN EU pages, but also says this inclusion divides opinions. Reading before editing is recommendable. Prefixcaz 22:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it gives the illusion that Finland is part of Scandinavia. And I have read the links would you like me to translate them for you? And they are not in any way to be considered in any support of that Finland is part of Scandinavia (Supermos 08:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC))

I have in my hand a tourist guide book published by the Finnish Foreign Ministry, titled "Finland - a Modern Scandinavian Country". Do you need anything more official than that? I reinstated the statement, but changed "often" to "sometimes". OK? --Janke | Talk 13:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That guide book is wrong. Because Finland and Iceland as Scandinavia is a fault made by forigners. The Nordic is + Finland and Iceland, but not Skandinavia. --Comanche cph 22:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

So you say the Finnish Foreign Ministry is wrong? As said in the article, it divides opinions - which is pretty much what happens on this talk page, too... ;-) --Janke | Talk 05:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes the Finnish Foreign Ministry is wrong. Maybe they also know that. Both in the Norwegian, Swedish and Dansish wikipedia and encyclopedias, it says that Scandinavia are these tree countrys. Finland and Iceland as Scandinavia is a fault. And there is no extended usage of Scandinavia, and those who claim that are wrong, -it´s not like the EU :o). --Comanche cph 20:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Found a good explanation on the Nynorsk page: "I engelsktalande land tek ein ofte også med Finland, Færøyane og Island i Skandinavia, sidan det engelske omgrepet for Norden, the Nordic countries, ikkje er særleg i bruk." That explains the difference between the Eglish and Scandinavian wikis. --Janke | Talk 06:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That is not a explanation to why Finland and Iceland should be considered as Scandinavia. Let us keep it to the facts that Scandinavia are tree countries, and the Nordic are seven countries including Greenland and the Faroe islands. --Comanche cph 10:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

All the links in the article attached to the claim of "official context" are deliberately linked to the SWE/DEN EU pages. Supermos, thank you for the offer of translation. However, at this point it is not necessary, as the documents are found on several other languages and are easily verified. I assume you do approve the EU translations of their own pages. All complaints about the usage of terminology on SWE and DEN EU publications should be adressed to the foreign ministries of the respective countries, as the texts are OFFICIALLY approved by them. Ranting just for the sake of it is not scientific. Prefixcaz 05:52, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The discussion about the relationship between Finland and Scandinavia seems fairly similar to the one about Ireland and the British Isles. Whereas outsiders innocently use the term British Isles about the islands off the north-western shore of Europe, people living on those islands associate different images to the terminology. I think most people in Finland agree, in a Nordic context, that Finland is NOT part of Scandinavia but in an English (or other than Nordic) language context Finland is usually called a Scandinavian country because of the futility - or lack or patience - of trying to explain otherwise. Clarifer 07:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Finland is not Scandinavia, Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway and Sweden period. The nordic countires are scandinavia + finland and iceland. As I have said before all books in sweden and denmark and norway point this out. I dont know what you think you know but it is clear what scandinavia is and what it is not. And these so called links has nothing to do with the matter at hand what so ever. It is like haveing links to tanks when you are talking about potatos. So clerk somewhere wrote someting sloppy and then some person like you wants to twist and turn it into something it is not. (Supermos 01:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Of course Finland is not part of Scandinavia. But try and explain that to the English, Americans and Germans. Futile. It is the other way around: Scandinavia is part of Pohjola (the Nordic countries)! ;) The big unresolved question regarding this article seems to be: should it deal primarily with the ENDOGENOUS (Swe, Den, Nor) or the EXOGENOUS (Swe, Den, Nor, Ice?, Fin?) meaning of the term Scandinavia. Either way, the primary view point to the concept of 'Scandinavia' should be stated and other usages for the term should be mentioned as well. Either this or you guys could write a lenghty article on the usage of these terms as per British Isles (terminology)? Cheers! Clarifer 14:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Map edit

Is there a experienced user in here, who can and please will draw Fyn, Zealand, Lolland/Falster, and other missing islands on the map. I have no idea how to do it. But maybe it´s to small to do it, don´t know. --Comanche cph 15:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Culture?

I was reading the article, and then I looked back up at the headers - and then realized, there's no ==Culture==. Isn't that not important? Why is there mention of culture? zafiroblue05 | Talk 06:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Scandinavia named after

It says on the top "Scandinavia is a region in Northern Europe named after the Scandinavian Peninsula." This is wrong. "Scandinavian Peninsula" is a geographic word, and first used in the 1800 century. --Comanche cph 12:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What is Scandinavia

Scandinavia is a word used for the 3 scandinavian kingdoms- Norway, Denmark and Sweden, for their same history, same scandinavian language and same culture. And there is no extended usage of that.

Finland is NOT Scandinavia, but a Nordic country, and have same language family with the baltic countries. (slavic or Uralic languages)

By foreigners is the Nordic often wrongly used as Scandinavia, like Scandinavia often is used as Nordic.

Scandinavia are Norway, Denmark and Sweden! --Comanche cph 15:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The wikipedia's on Swedish, Norwegian and Danish, says Scandinavia is 3 countries. And the Nordic often is mistaked with Scandinavia by other countries. --Comanche cph 13:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's not start a revert war!

Nowhere does this wiki article say Finland definitely is part of Scandinavia - it says it divides opinions, which is true. See previous discussions, also the archive. I removed the references which Supermos say don't "prove" Finland is a part - but have you seen all other possible documents? Let's keep the NPOV statement that Finland sometimes is considered belonging, and that it divides opinions. You can't be more fair that that. --Janke | Talk 06:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

On Iceland: I for one am willing to accept that Finland "sometimes" is considered belonging to Scandinavia, but as it is now, the map shows Finland on equal footing with Iceland! Iceland is never "sometimes" considered belonging to Scandinavia, - it is simply not part of Scandinavia. The map is scandalous as it is now! The orange area should limit itself to Finland, and the map-text should reflect that the yellow area is in fact depicting The Nordic countries - not Scandinavia. --Anjoe 09:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Svalbard: Norway has made Svalbard a part of the kingdom, which is not in conflict with the Svalbard Treaty giving some special rights to some other nations, so perhaps Svalbard should have the same color on the map as the norwegian mainland. Orcaborealis 10:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

To user:janke. It's says that "Finland is sometimes also included". But that should be change to something like "Finland is sometimes wrongly included by foreigners". Else we can only use the word Finland in the "Terminology and usage". Btw. "Terminology and usage" is wrong. Greenland more often included as Scandinavia, than Finland, since Greenland not is all independent from Denmark. --Comanche cph 07:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

On wikitravel you can also see what is correct. That Scandinavia are Den, Nor and Swe. http://wikitravel.org/en/Scandinavia --Comanche cph 12:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

omg!

This hole article has been rampaged by fins who include Finland! --Comanche cph 08:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

How about letting people with English as their mother tongue decide what definition the English speaking part of the world is using, wrongly or not? See the archived discussion. The English Misplaced Pages is for foreigners - at least from our perspective! You can define Scandinavia just as you like in the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian Misplaced Pages - have a look at the nynorsk version, by the way! Also, I'm not a "fin" - I'm a finlandssvensk... ;-) --Janke | Talk 10:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Heh. Belive me. Not all Finns (Finland-Swedes aside perhaps?) paricularly like to have Finland included in "Scandinavia". You can compare this to some Irish people not liking the term British Isles for Ireland. The view point seems to vary. A Finnish view point is irrelevant, however. What is perhaps MORE relevant is the ENGLISH LANGUAGE usage of the term 'Scandinavia' since this happens to be an English language version of Misplaced Pages. Clarifer 13:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No both on the Norway Swedish and Dansih wikipedia it's says that its the 3 countries.

It's dosent matter if there are Finland-Swedes. There is also Danish speakers in Germany. So should we include Germany? Don't think so.

If Finland should be Scandinavia, so should Estonia, Latvia and Litauen.

FINLAND IS NORDIC COUNTRY. NOT SCANDINAVIA!

So please stop the vandalism. Scandinavia are the 3 countries. Witch has common languages. --Comanche cph 11:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop calling it vandalism. I'm only re-instating the consensus version. I did not write it! See your own talk page, section "Blocked". You just broke the 3RR again, BTW. --Janke | Talk 16:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"I'm only re-instating the consensus FINISH version".

But don't do it, if you don't know what Scandinavia is. And i can only see it's you and your Finish friend who has being very active on this page, in including Finland. I'm starting to losing my patience to this Misplaced Pages. --Comanche cph 17:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)