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There are many ways to include something official. And the way it is included here is not only non objective but slanderous. The text is being manipulated into passing an opinion to the public instead of merely listing the facts. It is obvious that the intent behind this text is to harm the reputation of Swami Satyananda. Also, if you read carefully the linked articles, they are: 1. Merely reproducing the allegations 2. The allegations are not limited to the alleged sexual abuse, but they are attacking the philosophy of yoga in general. Karma Yoga and Bhakti Yoga are practiced in many ashrams, in many traditions. And Yoga is well respected in Indian and other countries. It is clear that there is a broader intent and a specific agenda behind these attacks.

If we wish to stick to the facts, the facts are these: 1. 2 persons have filed allegations on sexual abuse 40 years after they allegedly happened → These are case studies which means that a couple of persons have been selected from a larger group of people that have come forward to testify similar accounts. These issues have already been also confirmed by the past and current admin as can be seen on their Facebook page. This page contains links to sources describing what is included and one of the witnesses was the wife of one of the persons mentioned in this article. 2. The conviction of Swami Akhandananda was overturned in 1991. -> His wife is one of the new witnesses that are now testifying together with a number of witnesses including several victims and residents that witnesses some of what the survivors are alleging. 3. The allegations have not been proven and Swami Satyananda Saraswati has never been convicted. --> A deceased person cannot be convicted which does not mean that they could has committed a crime during their lifetime

Does any of the person that have been deleting the additions have any real fact to refuse adding the ongoing official findings of the inquest that includes allegations of sexual abuse towards children including Satayananda? Administrators can check that these are real proceedings from an official royal commission on the page mentioned. If you can demonstrate that these types of facts (recorded allegations as part of a case study run by a royal commission) cannot be included in Wikimedia please include information about it in this talk page as described by the administrator. Otherwise we will just go back to where things are now. Let's discuss this as reasonable individuals. The page did not include anything saying that he did or not do anything but mere facts about allegations being made including official records. Thus included high range officials within the congregation.

This is the suggested text: Full transcripts and videos of the persons that decided to come forward to unveil the situations can be found at the website of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse. It includes detailed descriptions of some of the acts of abuse committed towards children by members of the group including Satyananda.

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Please come forward to explain why you think that this cannot be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totocol (talk • contribs) 11:50, 5 December 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Please everyone, stick to the facts, if references are provided including royal commission public records then they are facts. There is not point in trying to hide things that are available in the public domain. Only facts based on the allegations are being included

As long as Misplaced Pages wishes to retain its objectivity, it will stick to the facts and will not promote a smear campaign. 2A02:580:51B9:A200:DCC8:1188:B496:4611 (talk) - - - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:580:51B9:A200:DCC8:1188:B496:4611 (talk) 11:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Definitely something has got to be done about this article. There is a revert war going on. Someone must help. Enigmafay (talk) This template must be substituted.

It is important to wait until the hearings and the process has concluded. Otherwise this is a cheap attempt at influencing the outcome. Thank you. Enigmafay (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Three witnesses in during the hearings have mentioned Satyananda as taking part on some of the acts. I believe that should be added on the page. Totocol (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

A request has been added to the third party opinion project Totocol (talk) 07:32, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Please, stop deleting content that has trustworthy references. Let's have an open conversation. Why is the link to the Royal Commission not valid to you? Have you read the actual transcriptions to the testimonials from the victims of the sexual abuse by the different leaders including Satyananda? Please let's stick to what the testimonials are saying. If you haven't, the transcripts from the Royal Commission are here: Totocol (talk) 09:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Editors, why can we have a conversation here instead of trying to delete the content that is coming from the Royal Commission testimonials? Totocol (talk) 09:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Why we have to propagate some new allegations that have to do nothing with his career and biography? Don't forget that we had similar reports about many other people much after their death. Are you sure that we are going to believe on a former member of his center? Bladesmulti (talk) 09:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Because the new findings are very relevant to what he was trying to teach. I invite you to read this article which has a good summary of the findings and has a good discussion on why it might be important to include those allegations as part of his biography. In case you haven't read the transcripts or how the Royal Commission works, so far there are 3 witnesses but they have just been selected from what could be a bigger number. The outcome of these hearings can be used as input for criminal proceedings. In case you want to read the transcripts they can be found at the Royal Commission's website. I think the evidence is pretty clear and strong but the law should decide on that. The hearings will continue in March.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.7.201.34 (talk • contribs) 20:37, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

You maybe correct about mentioning it somewhere, but having a separate section for that is undue. We can actually write about this where we have written about his career and death. Along with this controversy, we can also add some other events(apart from these allegations). It will work too. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:32, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Why did you fully delete it as opposed to changing it to a sub-section as you suggest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totocol (talk • contribs)

Read Misplaced Pages:NOTGOSSIP, just because some minors have now alleged him of sexual abuse and nothing has been proven, it requires no mention. Investigations seems to have been calmed down and you are a lone editor edit warring over these changes. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Please refer to full talk section. Definitely not the only editor that has been trying to add sections related to the outcomes from the royal commission. I highly encourage you to refer to the texts from the royal commission. The investigations have not calmed down, they have simply moved to the next step where the organisation can respond to the initial findings and then the hearings will start again in March. Please do not accuse other editors without reviewing the information added properly — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totocol (talk • contribs) 02:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a extremely random case, with no evidence if he can be charged or not. Although it is not even possible since he is dead and these random reports had no effect on his career. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:46, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You mean random allegations that lack any evidence? How they effect his career? Bladesmulti (talk) 08:10, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Please refer to the official communications from the organisation itself recognising their wrongdoings. Initial report including findings that you call random allegations. Ongoing process will continue in March. Please present a new reasonable argument rather than continuing to revert my addition Totocol (talk) 08:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The reasons marshalled for excluding this material are without foundation. To begin with, the allegations that the material amounts to slander are baseless: as a matter of law, in most jurisidictions you cannot slander the dead.

Next, the claims that we must wait until the outcome of the inquiry or for the allegations to be "proven" are likewise baseless. There is no such requirement. What is required is for the matter to have been previously published in reliable sources. As I mentioned earlier, the sources in this case are the Sydney Morning Herald and the Australian Associated Press, which easily qualify as reliable sources. Links to the inquiry itself are admissible; however, sole reliance on primary sources is not desirable because it is easy to misuse them in ways that amount to original research. The main sources should be the press reports.

Similarly, there is no requirement that we must first demonstrate that the issue had an effect on his career or biography, whatever that might mean. The topic is a controversy involving his biography and so is obviously relevant. Additionally, there is no question of WP:GOSSIP where the material is drawn from reliable news sources. These are not "random allegations" but evidence given under oath in a public inquiry and reported in reliable sources; we can include whatever these sources publish.

However, simply because we can include such material does not mean that we must. Bladesmulti rightly raises the issue of weight. I think this material requires its own subsection because it is a separate topic not related to anything else in the article. However, because this is a relatively short biographical article, the section should also be fairly (i.e. proportionately) brief. It should not be allowed to balloon and dominate the article. The material that has been repeatedly removed occupies exactly two lines in a thirty-two line article. This seems to me perfectly reasonable and proportional. In my opinion, it could be (but doesn't have to be) expanded to double its current size without becoming disproportionate.

Finally, while I assume good faith, I am puzzled by the ongoing attempt to suppress this material for reasons that are wholly without foundation, and can't help but wonder if the obstinacy is rooted in a simple opposition to including negative information about someone whom some editors admire. This is not a reason to exclude: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and its biographies are not hagiographies, but aim to be balanced and neutral accounts of a people's lives, both the good and the controversial. Because I think that continuing to exclude this material is damaging to the article and without it the article is incomplete, I plan to restore the section in an altered format after giving other editors a chance to respond and comment. In my opinion, the section should stick closely to press reports, and not rely solely on links to primary sources for reasons set out in WP:PRIMARY.

I am happy to engage with other editors in order to find a way to include this material, but I will continue to oppose its suppression, and am prepared to escalate the issue to the dispute resolution noticeboard should no resolution be found through negotiation. -- Rrburke (talk) 16:43, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I am happy to engage in those discusions too. Totocol (talk) 20:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The truth is that the initial short reference to the allegations was expanded with the intention to shadow the rest of the article. The manner in which it was written also denotes the motives behind those edits. Anyone can claim anything in any court, but are we going to document any kind and all allegations? This just does not make any sense. As long as there is a section on allegations, the people promoting the slander war and the attack on this article, are going to be using it to expand it. You have to see through the motives and the reasons these people are attacking Swami Satyananda and this page. Why after 40 years of the alleged crimes, has now come a "witness" forth? Why now, when Swami Satyananda is dead? I have read all the material and the allegations. The way these are circulated through the internet is clearly to attack Yoga in general. They do not limit themselves to the allegations but they go forth to describe life in an ashram as that of compulsory labour. Karma yoga is reduced to compulsory labour. Bhakti yoga is made to look like a lower form of fanatical religion. This whole campaign at attacking Swami Satyananda and his Yoga, has one and only aim. And any thinking person may find that out. We should stick to the spirit and the motives surrounding these attacks. We should stick to the truth. And we should stick to the aim and purpose of this article, which is to inform people about the life and achievements of Swami Satyananda in the sphere of Yoga. Enigmafay (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Your speculations about the motives behind the story are beside the point, and offer no basis for the continued suppression of this topic. Efforts to include this material are not "attacking" the article. The topic has been widely-covered in reliable sources, and merits inclusion in the article. Here is just a sampling of the coverage: ,,,,,,,,.

With this level of coverage, the ongoing attempts to suppress this topic should be abandoned and effort now directed to how best to summarize and integrate material from the press stories into the article. I agree that the section should not be permitted to overwhelm the article. The section need not dwell on every salacious detail and become the main focus, but should fairly and accurately summarize what has been published in reliable sources, with due regard to proportion. -- Rrburke (talk) 22:32, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe that the matter of sexual abuse of children should not be mentioned in this article at least for now. I would agree if it was the Mangrove Ashram article, all the physical and sexual abuse to be mentioned that even they acknowledged. Most of what has been mentioned in the Royal Comission hearings has been about the Mangrove Ashram that is a seperate legal entity. The fact that they were inspired by Satyananda or that they teach Satyananda Yoga techniques, I believe has no direct connection with Satyananda as a person or his life. Now, concerning the allegations that include Satyananda, even if they are true, I have only seen one from a woman who was 17 at the time and another from an adult. None of them constitute being a child at that time in India nor Australia so a mention of "sexual abuse of children", I believe, is wrong and it paints the wrong picture. I also believe that the matter of abuse by Satyananda is blurry in these allegations. I'm not sure the allegations against him even register as sexual abuse in a criminal sense. Until an official organisation acknowledges the allegations against Satyananda (and due process is being done currently) or other allegations are produced, in my respectful opinion, we should wait before such an inclusion is made in this article. ArisPs (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

the discussion here is not about whether some editors' opinion is if they believe the allegations are true or not. The main discussion is that there are already appropriate sources that include allegations that are relevant to this article and that so far the editors that continue deleting other editors' inclusions in this area seem to be doing it with arguments that are not in line with that wikipedia is aiming to do. The additions can still be kept as allegations but need to be included if this article is to remain objective. There are at least 3 accusations that have been made and if you read the way the Royal Commission is doing its work, the allegations that have been made public are just a representation of the testimonies they have received. A full report is going to be made available in January but there are so far a number of sources that are relevant and would add to the objectivity and relevance of this article. 181.54.53.178 (talk) 04:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

1. Of course, this is not about whether anyone believes in the allegations or not. This is about whether there exists any acceptable evidence or court decision regarding the allegations. Anyone is free to accuse anyone of anything. But such accusations or subjective allegations should not be included in this article.

2. The hidden agenda (which is actually obvious) and the motives behind these edits are certainly relevant. It is clear that the purpose of the people who attack this page is spread unverified rumors and cast a shadow on Yoga and one of its greatest representatives. The links that you provide are no evidence to the reality of the allegations. They just picture the accusations in a very colorful manner. As I pointed out earlier, the intention behind these articles are to harm the yogic tradition in general. This is obvious by the tone of these articles. The websites that publish them are interested solely on "selling something spicy" and what more spicy that sexual allegations of a spiritual leader. We should take into account the general atmosphere behind this internet campaign, and the fact that linking to allegations does NOT mean that you are linking to proof nor to evidence.

3. If one goes through the history of this article and reads the way the sexual accusations were expanded and written, they were taking up more than half of the rest of the biography. Then one will realize what is going on in here. Enigmafay (talk) 11:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course this is not a matter of opinion and whether anyone believes this or not. I meant something entirely different when I said that it is blurry but perhaps that was indeed an opinion and I withdraw that from this conversation. I won't elaborate, as it has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages and I apologise if I gave the wrong impression. I've watched the Comission hearings and I only heard about two allegations by people and they were not minors. If there is a third one by a child, that is a different matter. If someone could bring it to my attention, I would review my stand on this issue. To the matter of other testimonies that have not been made public, I respectfully don't think they should be a factor in deciding whether to mention abuse in this article. They have not been made public yet and we do not know if they mention Satyananda at all. If a mention about sexual abuse by Satyananda is to be added on this article, I believe that it should reflect only what he specifically is accused of and the sources should reflect that as well. If a link is provided to news articles that mention this, it should be about Satyananda and not mixed together with what other people have done or alleged to have done. I believe this serves objectivity. Does anyone have a suggestion on what should be mentioned on this article? As I said before I believe this should not reflect the actions of others and it should not mention abuse of children as I am not aware of any. Another point I would like to make is this. If, as someone mentioned, a full report is coming out on January, wouldn't it be wise for us to wait for a month? This matter about Satyananda hasn't been known for three or four decades, I don't think this should be an issue. We would all be much more informed. Lastly, I would like to say that if an addition is to be made titled "Controversy" it should reflect both sides of the argument. Shouldn't we wait to see if anyone from Satyananda's side have anything to say about the allegations against him? That is what controversy implies. ArisPs (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@Enigmafay:Let me address your points in reverse order. I agree that any section on this topic should summarize the issue concisely and accurately. I also agree that the size of the section in previous versions had grown too large.

However, I reject the idea that there is some "hidden agenda" behind the addition of this material or that the article is being "attacked". It is a cardinal principle of Misplaced Pages to assume good faith on the part of other editors with whom we may disagree. What this means is that we all assume that each editor is advocating changes for no other reason than he or she believes those changes will improve the article. Please note that improving the article does not mean protecting the reputation of the article's subject, but rather ensuring the article's integrity and completeness.

Finally, this dispute is emphatically not "about whether there exists any acceptable evidence or court decision regarding the allegations". That is simply wrong. Misplaced Pages is not in the business of evaluating what is "acceptable evidence" but rather what are acceptable sources and whether a topic has received adequate coverage in them. When a topic has received ample coverage in reliable sources as this one has, there is simply no basis for suppressing it. Misplaced Pages does not wait for the outcomes of court cases or commissions of inquiry in order to add material about a topic; Misplaced Pages waits until a topic has received adequate coverage in reliable sources. There are plenty of articles discussing current court cases and public inquiries, and all manner of charges, testimony, allegations and accusations are reported. Such material is reported as just that: testimony, charges, evidence: "So-and-so testified...", "the prosecution alleged...", "the court was shown...", etc. As more evidence accumulates, the article is updated to reflect new information. There is absolutely no requirement to wait for the completion of any proceeding before including information about it in a Misplaced Pages article.

As evidenced by the nine sources I cited above, which are only a sampling, this topic has received more than adequate coverage in reliable sources to merit inclusion. It has even received international coverage in India, the UK and the United States. There is no question that it should be included. At this point we should be trying to come to an agreement about what and how much to include. -- Rrburke (talk) 20:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Swami Sivananda. Golden Jubilee Collection Vol 6., 1954
2. Swami Satyananda. Teachings Vol 1 (enlarged Indian edition), 1981
3. http://www.rikhiapeeth.in/paramhansa-alakh-bara/yoga-purnima/
4. http://http://www.fullmoon.info/en/fullmoon-calendar/1923.html
5. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/downloadfile.ashx?guid=bc75afe3-4a12-41be-983d-f9db256f6260&type=openingaddresspdf&filename=case-study-21,-december-2014,-sydney-opening-address&fileextension=pdf
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources
7. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/bc75afe3-4a12-41be-983d-f9db256f6260/case-study-21,-december-2014,-sydney
8. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements
9. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/bc75afe3-4a12-41be-983d-f9db256f6260/case-study-21,-december-2014,-sydney
10. http://matthewremski.com/wordpress/boycott-satyanandas-literature-and-methods-until-reparations-are-made-for-sexual-abuse/
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/Age_of_consent_reform#India
12. https://www3.aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/age-consent-laws

Outside opinion

I am starting a new subsection here because the above discussion is quite garbled and I can't tell who is saying what. (You should use : symbols for indentation and sign your name at the end by putting ~~~~.)

There is some deep misunderstanding here because people are talking about "facts". Misplaced Pages is not about reporting "facts." We are not a news agency or a detective agency. We merely summarise information found in reliable sources. So, click on that link, understand what reliable sources are, and report what you find there. Mainstream newspapers are fine. The Royal Commission hearings are primary sources. They can't be cited, but you can put them in external links. The only requirement is that you should write material in a neutral voice, without directly accusing anybody. The material that is included here is perfectly fine as far as I can see. If it is being challenged, please specify on what grounds it is being challenged. You can't say that you want it to go away merely because you don't like it. Kautilya3 (talk) 21:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Kautilya3. I by and large agree with you, although I think that in a relatively short biography like this the section on the abuse allegations shouldn't be permitted to balloon and dominate the article. In some earlier versions of the article it had grown too large. -- Rrburke (talk) 22:16, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Would it help to suggest a short text to add again and see if any of the editors that believe the text was not accurate could suggest any edits before is added again? I believe as others here that this should be added to make the article more complete and objective Totocol (talk) 03:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

A new section like controversies would be better, it should include a few non-child abuse matters as well that occurred during his career and after that. It may also include criticism by others. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

That sounds fair. What other controversial things do you think should be added? Totocol (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure we need other controversies, but we do need a discussion in the main body of the world-wide network of his ashrams. Otherwise, Australia would jump out without any context in the Controversies section. Kautilya3 (talk) 14:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

We require studies about his ashrams.. Liked this idea. Bladesmulti (talk) 12:51, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Canvassing

Not sure how relevant this is but I found a reference to a post in a facebook group asking people to create Misplaced Pages accounts to try and keep the new information suppressed. Totocol (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

There is canvassing from both sides. The post you linked is also a form of canvassing the anti group. --Vigyani_talk 04:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

This is not true. There is nowhere in the post stated that "new information must be suppressed". Why are you making this up? The post merely invites people to comment in the discussion page "why the paragraph on the allegations should not be included in the article". It is your personal opinion that the allegations are "new information". While the objective fact is that the allegations have no legal standing. See paragraph "Separating Fact from Fiction". Enigmafay (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

please Enigmafay I am really acting in good faith here but the way you refer to me when you mention me begins to feel as if you are taking this personally. It is really unpleasant to try and contribute to this article when I feel attacked by you. My only intention here is to add some information which I believe needs to be added to make the article more objective. It's one of my few contributions to Misplaced Pages and have been amazed at the amount of things done editors to ensure that information is not added. The information is widely public in many sources so I'm quite puzzled at why such big opposition to something people will find anyway. When you google Satyananda, most of the first page results refer to these allegations. I'm really just trying to reach agreement in an amicably way. It seems like admins and experienced editors feel the same way and feel that the information a couple of editors want to add would be fair to be added. The point is not whether it is fact, fiction or anything else but rather a controversy that is widely documented which is pointless to try to supress Totocol (talk) 05:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

this is the original post which is indeed asking people to come to this page to write comments on why the allegations should not be included I have taken screenshots in case it is deleted. This is the original text so you can make your own conclusions

"" Totocol (talk) 06:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC) cc: Rrburke Philg88 Kautilya3

this is the facebook post where some editors are also discussing how to keep this article "clean" Screenshots have also been taken in case they are deleted Totocol (talk) 06:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Enigmafay: Please spare us your lectures. You have created your account on the 5 December, and you have only edited or participated in this page. It is clear that you are not here to develop Misplaced Pages, but to push your point of view. You have done several reverts of reasonable edits of this page (I count more than 3 on the 5th December) and, as such, you had grounds to be blocked. There are no conceivable reasons "why the paragraph on the allegations should not be included in the article." Misplaced Pages is not a court of law, and "legal" has no meaning here. We report what is present in reliable sources. You are welcome to familiarise yourself with how Misplaced Pages operates and make useful contributions to it. If your agenda is to block information from appearing here, you will not succeed. Kautilya3 (talk) 13:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, me and a bunch of other users who have been involved in the revert war. The allegations paragraph had to be removed because the edits we were doing on it, to keep it objective, were being deleted. Instead the paragraph was growing in size bigger than the original article and they were dominating it. The writing was also improper and clearly aimed at damaging the reputation of Swami Satyananda, and not on solely reporting allegations. And this is the truth of the matter and the true chronicle of this article. The agenda of the people who added this paragraph is to slander, which is actually illegal. Furthermore, additions to any article should be relevant and useful to it. In which case, they are neither factual, nor relevant, nor useful. That is why, there should be no paragraph on Allegations. Enigmafay (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

as expected, all of the comments on the second facebook post I provided as reference were deleted but I have kept screenshots of the full discusion is needed. In that discussion people were given instructions on how easily it was to create accounts to continue deleting the new information added as One of The comments say "together we have to stay strong for the sake of our faith, in our guru,tradition and yoga.No one,like these rumour mongers,haters,and greedy people can change that." - this post was started in Dec 4 which coincides with the account creation date of Enigmafay

Please do not delete information from the talk page 181.54.53.178 (talk) 15:32, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.facebook.com/groups/629201367191873/permalink/637558639689479/
2. https://www.facebook.com/groups/BYBMunger/permalink/10152929450791944/
3. https://www.facebook.com/groups/BYBMunger/permalink/10152885416426944/

There is nothing wrong with our discussions, no matter how much you try to picture them in a negative way. Our discussions take place between our members, informing them about the war you have started here, and how they can contribute to Misplaced Pages on a matter that seriously concerns them. On the contrary, there is everything wrong with what you and your employer have been doing for the past month. You and your employer invaded our groups, harassed us, tried to proselytize people into your own ideas by posting offensive remarks along the links to the allegations. You and your employer have been posting in our groups repeatedly insulting us. The administrators of multiple groups had to ban you and your employer from further disturbing our pages. I would suggest you to keep your ideas to yourself and to the people who choose to join your groups. Oh, but you can no longer disturb our groups because you have been banned. Too bad.

i have never tried to join any of your groups. Not that that has any influence here. If your discussions had nothing wrong then why did you delete a lot of the comments instructing people how to influence the content of this page? Totocol (talk) 16:08, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh and another thing. It looks like you have been lurking on the talk pages of the administrators trying to influence them in your favor. No further comments. Enigmafay (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Editors are reminded the purpose of this page is discussing improvements to the article, not lobbing accusations and impugning motives. We all assume that other editors are here, like ourselves, to improve the article. Please focus comments on content, not contributors. -- Rrburke (talk) 16:34, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You can tell that to the editor who started the accusations and who initiated this paragraph. Enigmafay (talk) 18:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Separating Fact from Fiction

The Royal Commission - Swami Satyananda refuting sexual abuse allegations

It is worth noting that the Royal Commission is not a court of law and does not exercise judicial power, although its powers may be coercive, denying the basic legal rights afforded ordinarily in a court of law http://www.smh.com.au/comment/extraordinary-powers-come-with-weapon-in-pms-armoury-20140210-32cpw.htm .

Testimonies in a Royal Commission and the opinion of a commissioner do not carry any direct legal consequences. As is stated in the High Court of Victoria, Australia

If (a) Commissioner were to report that he is of the opinion or that he finds that a person has contravened a law, the report would carry no legal consequence; (Victoria v ABCE & BLF 1982 152 CLR 25 (Brennan J at 154))

On the other hand, in an ordinary court of law the standards for the rules of evidence, and one’s protection against self-incrimination apply. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-31/royal-commission-questions-gillards-professional-conduct/5858466

The testimonies from witnesses heard in case study 21, Satyananda Yoga Ashram - Mangrove Mountain Ashram at the recent Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse should not be relied upon as facts to support unproven allegations of sexual abuse against Swami Satyananda.

They are individual testimonies given to the Royal Commission as one’s personal account of events as they allegedly happened 30 years ago, and therefore should be treated with caution.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/julia-gillard-tackles-union-royal-commission-witnesses/story-fn59noo3-1227110275976

It has been noted, that in the past, the legitimacy of different Royal Commission recommendations have been brought into question http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2014/s4152609.htm

Reporting unproven allegations as fact carries severe damage to an organisation such as the case study involving the Salvation Army after it was investigated by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse (case study 5). http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-22/salvation-army-reputation-declines-after-child-sex-abuse-inquiry/5983508

Confusing individual testimonies* as factual accounts which have not been proven in a court of law may inadvertently create more untruths: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-01/berg-shining-a-light-on-the-dangers-of-royal-commissions/5562354

There are times when the legitimacy of the Royal Commission findings has been placed in doubt. http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2014/s4152609.htm

Where real reform from Royal Commissions reports has failed to be implemented http://www.acu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/241019/Prasser_and_Aroney_Fitzgerald_Inquiry_Griffith_Law_Review.pdf

There have been times when the Royal Commission reports have been completely rejected and the credibility of the Royal Commission questioned http://www.smh.com.au/national/failure-to-deal-with-kathy-jackson-undermines-credibility-of-royal-commission-20141219-12aof9.html http://www.afr.com/p/national/cfmeu_rejects_royal_commission_findings_1NhksjinxuMrjFXarOpMPJ

In addition, there are instances where the findings from Royal Commissions have been ignored by governments. https://en.wikipedia.org/Royal_Commission

Finally, a clear distinction needs to be made between what Royal Commission testimonies are and their legal standing and what testimonies submitted and proven to be factual in a court of law are, to avoid the serious damage and repercussions that unproven allegations, accusations and speculation that may arise during a Royal Commission case study, may cause for the organisation involved.

• Testimony based on another’s account as is seen in APR’s statement, “It was only in listening to the statement of Bhakti Manning yesterday that…….I have a non-distinct memory of my initiation” Royal Commission witness APR(106:11094)http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/bc75afe3-4a12-41be-983d-f9db256f6260/case-study-21,-december-2014,-sydney

Enigmafay (talk) 19:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

the point here is really not to decide if anything is fact or fiction but rather if there is any valid reason to continue stopping editors from adding a well referenced and widely documented information Totocol (talk) 05:59, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

That is exactly the point. Otherwise the readers of Misplaced Pages would be misled. Why would you want to write a misleading article? Let us define "widely documented information". Firstly, allegations are just... allegations. They are not information. Secondly, the Royal Commission is not a court of law and does not exercise judicial power, although its powers may be coercive, denying the basic legal rights afforded ordinarily in a court of law. Furthermore, the links that have been provided do not constitute in any sense widely documented information. Anyone who is familiar with the internet knows how easy it is to get "information" published. Even well known news-servers have been known to circulate articles that are nothing more than hoaxes. Also, it has come to my attention that you did not discuss any of the points risen in the "Separating Fact from Fiction" paragraph. Along with your response, that clearly implies that the allegations are fictional, it looks like a trick of sophistry from your part, to attempt to publish allegations in the name of "widely documented information", even if you believe that it is not fact. Even though we listed for your satisfaction the valid reasons on why we continue to stop editors from adding these texts, it is actually you who has to prove if there is any reason to continue attempting at adding fiction that harms the reputation of a widely respected representative of Yoga. I don't have to prove that I am not an Elephant. Enigmafay (talk) 12:36, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

after reading the facebook posts from you and the others that are trying to omit that information I believe there isn't much point on discussing with you so I think it might be better to scalate the issue. Totocol (talk) 12:54, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I see, you have no further arguments on the issues I raised :). Enigmafay (talk) 13:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

There is only one issue, and it is simple: the standard for inclusion on Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. The issue is not whether the allegations are true, but whether they have been widely-reported in reliable sources. Allegations are indeed just allegations: Misplaced Pages reports them as allegations. Misplaced Pages does not evaluate the credibility of testimony, the credibility of the royal commission, or the credibility of royal commissions in general. Misplaced Pages does not care whether the commission is a court of law, or what the differences between it and a court of law are. Misplaced Pages is not at all interested in "separating fact from fiction" in the way you have described. All of this is completely beside the point. Misplaced Pages cares solely whether the proceedings of the royal commission have been reported in reliable sources. They have. They have been so widely-reported that there can be no rationale for suppressing them. If the topic is has been carried on ABC and Sky News, in the Sydney Morning Herald, the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Times of India, and many more besides, that is more than sufficient for it to be included in Misplaced Pages. -- Rrburke (talk) 14:23, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Verifiability, means accuracy of the information. Not accurately reporting inaccurate and without evidence allegations. As an encyclopedia, which is what Misplaced Pages primarily is, it should include relevant and useful information. If you were writing a short biography on Swami Satyananda for a well known printed encyclopedia, would you include the allegations? Enigmafay (talk) 15:03, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

This is sophistry. You are trying to use the guidelines of Misplaced Pages without using common sense. These guidelines do not forbid anyone from using their logic regarding the importance and necessity of the information included in an article. You have to understand that stating unproven and false allegations is DEFAMATION, a civil wrong and in many countries a crime. Surely a paper encyclopedia would never commit such a crime. By agreeing to include defamation on Misplaced Pages we are actively damaging the reputation of such a large and influential organization. In that case, I would not be surprised if charges would be filed against Misplaced Pages. Enigmafay (talk) 18:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Enigmafay:Call it whatever you please, this is how Misplaced Pages works, how it has always worked and how it will to continue to work. And as I said earlier, as a matter of law in most jurisdictions you cannot defame the dead. But that is beside the point: Misplaced Pages publishes allegations qua allegations and testimony qua testimony all the time. Why do you think an exception should be made for this article? The testimony before the commission has been widely reported in reliable sources and there have been no lawsuits, principally because there is no basis for any. It can and should be published here as well; there is no problem. -- Rrburke (talk) 20:32, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

This is not how Misplaced Pages works. You can defame an organization and that is what is going on here. I ve proven you that the sources are not reliable, that there is no evidence and no court decision. It is defamation and it is illegal. I am waiting for you to disprove the arguments I have raised in my initial long post, but nobody seems to be able to. And strangely nobody is discussing about them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enigmafay (talk • contribs) 13:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• "This is not how Misplaced Pages works"

This is precisely how Misplaced Pages works in hundreds upon thousands of articles.

• "I ve proven you that the sources are not reliable"

You've done nothing of the kind.

• "there is no evidence and no court decision"

Testimony is evidence and no "decision" is required.

• "I am waiting for you to disprove the arguments I have raised in my initial long post, but nobody seems to be able to. And strangely nobody is discussing about them."

No one is discussing them because they are irrelevant. The policy in play is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: the topic has received wide coverage in reliable sources and so merits inclusion. I'm afraid this discussion has become sterile. I see no purpose in repeating this elementary point over and over any more. -- Rrburke (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

What do you recommend would be the best next step given tha we are unlikely to reach concensus? Totocol (talk) 18:26, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Well when you discussed this with the administrator on his talk page he did not seem to agree with you Rrburke. Quoting " In view of that, I haven't blocked Totocol for edit-warring and have asked the editors involved on several occasions to reach a consensus on what should and should not be included. My view on how the matter moves forward is that those involved should step back and seek dispute resolution. Pending a consensus for its inclusion, the abuse allegation material should stay out of the article. In the mean time, edit warring and disruptive editing will be dealt with accordingly. Cheers, Philg88 " Enigmafay (talk) 13:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

No one participating in this discussion has attempted to re-add the section. No one is edit-warring and there is no disruption taking place. As there is no deadline, I am content to wait for the outcome of this discussion.

Moreover, what Phil said is that the abuse allegations should remain out pending consensus for its conclusion. In my opinion, such a consensus has begun to emerge, and I plan to take its temperature in a straw poll. As far as I can tell, you are the only editor remaining arguing for this topic's complete suppression, and your reasons are specious. -- Rrburke (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

A separate section on Controversies is perfectly fine. That is the right way to do it. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 21:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no issue for a controversies section as this will be considered defamation. Enigmafay (talk) 13:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll be happy with a separate section too and would be happy to start with a modified version of where it was before the last edit war: "During open hearings as part of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse in Australia a Satyananda Yoga Ashram was investigated in relation to their response to past allegations of sexual abuse. During these hearings, three witnesses alleged that Satyananda had sexually abused them with two of them being minors during the alleged situations. . A full record of the testimonies that were brought forward by the commission for the public hearings can be found on the Royal Commission's Website.. The Royal Commission will continue the hearings around this case in March 2015." But I'd be more than happy for more experienced editors to modify it too.

The hearing will examine the response of Satyananda Yoga Ashram to allegations of child sexual abuse by the Ashram’s former spiritual leader in the 1970s and 1980s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totocol (talk • contribs) 22:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.news.com.au/national/children-were-raped-beaten-and-drugged-at-mangrove-yoga-ashram-say-victims-at-royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse/story-fncynjr2-1227151800583
2. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/bc75afe3-4a12-41be-983d-f9db256f6260/case-study-21,-december-2014,-sydney