Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:48, 13 January 2015

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Comedy Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comedy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of comedy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ComedyWikipedia:WikiProject ComedyTemplate:WikiProject ComedyComedy Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. France Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

associations

• Some links on DMM and his ties to Holocaust deniers and far rightists

• http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolocaustDenial_83/5429_83.htm

• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4001332/French-comedian-gives-award-to-Holocaust-denier.html

• http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-at-french-comicrsquos-award-for-holocaust-denier-1214725.html

• http://thejewishchronicle.org/view/full_story/2424137/article-When-is-anti-Zionism-no-longer-funny-in-France--Ask-Dieudonne-

• http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/only-in-france-the-black-antisemitic-comedian-at-a-rally-of-le-pens-far-right-424947.html

It seems to me there shouldn't even be any argument any more about how relevant Holocaust denial is in the public perception of DMM. But there you go... --Insert coins (talk) 14:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

modification: as french in paris, i verify firmly there is no jewish leaders into the political group "euro palestine", unless a rabbi of a radical sect trying to destroy israel declaring that the Messiah is coming faster, but he is not leading this movement, he is sympathizer just signed his political list for European elections. The two top-leaders of Euro-palestine are: Dieudonné m'bala m'bala and alain Soral, friends of thierry Meyssan,from reopen9/11.

syrian agent photographed in Beyrouth with dieudonné and Manaf Tlass colonel in the syrian Republican Guard personal of Assad you can see in this picture:

source: https://static.prtst.net/asset-proxy/4acb95604884c0bfdf6abd481a0e309d77d9b202/687474703a2f2f7265666c657865732e73616d697a6461742e6e65742f494d472f6a70672f64696e65725f746c6173735f66616d696c6c652e6a7067/http://reflexes.samizdat.net/IMG/jpg/diner_tlass_famille.jpg meyssan is on the right, dieudonné in the middle.

Dieudonné is the director of Les Ogres Website, which denies September 11.

Iranian republic openly declares support Dieudonné M'bala M'bala.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.195.33.208 (talk) 16:48, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard report

Hi, the article is fully protected for three days, that is plenty of time for some discussion to resolve this, there is a BLP report about this recent edit warring, please see and comment there, thanks Youreallycan (talk) 17:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• - Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Dieudonné M'bala M'bala

This article is biased and does not represent facts but simply is part of a political agenda against the comic. For example, the article mentions court convictions without mentionning all the cases he actually won. This article is a half truth at best. The French version on Wickipedia is much more balanced

The subjects court victories are mentioned in the article at this point, for example: "millions of euros in damages to Dieudonné if he sues and wins, as actually occurred in La Rochelle in 2012." Jaydubya93 (talk) 13:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

New Comedy section

I am trying to explain his comedy in English. There are few articles that explain it, so I included an external links inside the Comedy section to make it easy for someone to see what the thing being described is. Geo8rge (talk) 02:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

For better or worse, he is no longer known primarily for comedy. Be that as it may, I'm happy to translate reasonable sized excerpts from any French articles in order to include in references, or the article, if that will help you.

Mathglot (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Low-importance France articles

I think now that the interior minister Manuel Valls is commenting on the matter, it is no longer "low importance"Geo8rge (talk) 18:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Such rankings are technically about whether this article is important for Misplaced Pages's overall coverage of France topics... AnonMoos (talk) 07:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

B-Class

I think within France he is an important comedian sort of like the French Howard Stern or Andrew Dice Clay. He seems to be filling large venues. So maybe he is not B-Class, especially in the French speaking world. Geo8rge (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

"B-class" actually refers to the quality of the article, not to the importance of M'bala M'bala... -- AnonMoos (talk) 05:32, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

AnonMoos is, of course, correct. Following up on Geo8rge, Dieudonné has--well, had--a 22-city tour scheduled which was selling out 5,000-seat venues.

Mathglot (talk) 07:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

A quote

There's an unsourced quote which says "“Me, you see, when I hear Patrick Cohen speak, I think to myself: ‘Gas chambers…too bad .”

Why are the words in brackets? If Dieudonné M'bala M'bala said those words, then the words should remain, but the brackets should be removed. If he did not say those words, then "" should be removed in its entirety, absent a further quote from Dieudonné M'bala M'bala saying that he did mean to add "they no longer exist". Theresonator (talk) 16:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The entire quote including the brackets is taken directly from the France24 article - http://www.france24.com/en/20131227-dieudonne-france-famous-french-comic-show-could-be-banned-anti-semitic-content/ - which is listed in the article as a source, and is a reliable source as per wp:source. Wikieditorpro (talk) 21:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

But people don't talk in brackets, do they? So what do the brackets signify? Surely that matters a bit? Theresonator (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

The brackets signify the implicit meaning of the words "too bad". They are used when translating a foreign sentence to give its full meaning to the reader. 90.41.202.33 (talk) 11:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

There is no implicit meaning. The words mean what the words mean. Adding words which were not actually said is inaccurate. If the words were said, then quote them. If not, don't. Theresonator (talk) 20:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Square brackets are used to refer to content that is necessary to the meaning of the quotation but not cited in the quotation. However, the content in the brackets should be a paraphrase of explicit content said immediately before or after the actual quotation to give context. The words "they no longer exist" are not a paraphrase or reference to explicit content giving context and alter the "possible" meaning. Neither is there any translators note necessary as the correct punctuation are pause points or ellipses leaving the listener to draw their own conclusion. (This does not mean either that "they no longer exist" may not be understood.) --Redracam (talk) 15:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

That's just flat dishonest, I'm taking those out. The only words that belong there are the words he said. Not to mention that the quote is unsourced to begin with, the whole thing should be removed. It seems like this whole page written in a way to make Dieudonne sound as bad as possible. It isn't an article about the guy, it's an article designed to go on at length about how horrible he is. It's absolutely absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.252.42.161 (talk) 06:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you... Just let people complete with what they want. It is very dependent of the context. Misplaced Pages can be read by someone without your historical background. A young Tibetan for example who might not so easily feel in the blanks with the words you think are right. It also depends on you mood. Now for example I would fill the blank with the following. "Gas chambers…too bad "

Can you respect silence please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Utope.spiro (talk • contribs) 17:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to remove "" from the quote. I have heard the quote and he doesn't say those words. Other people have heard the quote and they say that he doesn't say those words. If he doesn't say those words, then he should not be quoted as if he did say those words. Theresonator (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I would have removed it if the page hadn't been semi-protected. It is absurd that someone is being quoted as having said words which he did not say. If someone with the authority to correct this would like to do the correction, I'd be grateful. Theresonator (talk) 19:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

 Done Blaue Max (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Theresonator (talk) 21:03, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

The entire quote is both well-sourced and necessary to present the context of the statement. The fact that they are in brackets means that they were implied but not stated. France24 and every other major news agency uses brackets for this purpose. (see Garner, B. 2009. Garner's Modern American Usage, 3rd Edition, p. 682. New York: Oxford University Press.)

More importantly in this case they are necessary to remove the obvious ambiguity which is present without them (i.e. is it a pity that gas chambers existed, or that they don't exist now. Put in the context of his attack on Nick Cohen, the answer is obvious.) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Brackets_and_parentheses). As per WP:EP WP:RS, the more information the better. Wikieditorpro (talk) 00:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

He did not say the words "they no longer exist". Nobody has any idea what, if anything, Dieudonné meant to imply. Inserting at the end of the quite is nothing more than a guess and has no place in a quote of anyone's words. Theresonator (talk) 22:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Anelka

I have added a sentence about a recent incident in an English football match. It is rather trivial, but I included it as it is probably the first time most UK residents became aware of the issue. Tigerboy1966  09:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Media targets Dieudonne because he won't fall in line

See http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/01/the-bete-noire-of-the-french-establishment/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.221.179 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Iran's opinion of Dieudonne is not *his* political view

This sentence: "The Islamic regime of Iran openly declares its support for Dieudonné M'bala M'bala." has no context, no source, and seemingly nothing to do with Dieudonne's political views (the section in which it appears). It should be removed. 67.255.12.232 (talk) 03:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The quenelle

You could add a few dates. The quenelle was first performed around 2005. It was a kind of fist fucking at first used in comedy show and did not have the political sens that you give it now. Then, it was reused in 2009 for the European elections as an anti-system gesture.

Please do check the French article it's not perfect but far more balanced than yours.

What is not mentioned also is that Dieudonné is suing Alain Jakubowicz, the director of the LICRA (International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism), for saying that the quenelle had a relationship with a nazi salut. -- 18:00, 4 January 2014‎ Utope.spiro

Why should anybody give any credence to M'bala M'bala's perfunctory pro forma disclaimers at this point, given his abundantly-documented record of abundant instances of bad faith? -- AnonMoos (talk) 05:27, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

this makes no grammatical sense. Either remove "also" or add an anti-system description to the gesture. Otherwise it is leading propaganda if it describes the physical move only and this should be corrected "The quenelle invented by Dieudonné is a gesture comprised by a downward straight arm touched at the shoulder by the opposite hand. La Quenelle has also been described as a reverse Nazi salute." 70.29.242.105 (talk) 15:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

• Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Technical 13 (talk) 21:48, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Sketch of 2003 which launched much of the controversy

You write that "The 1 December 2003, Dieudonné made a sketch in a TV show about a Nazi Israeli settler. " This is not accurate at all, and worth clarifying since it was the source of alot of the notoriety around his sketches.

Here is the sketch, in French (I don't know of any subtitled version, and even then would not necessarily trust it) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFUJamte5p8

To my mind, your entry should read:

"a sketch in which Dieudonne played a Zionist extremist who mockingly criticizes the show's host for inviting a muslim comedian onto the show (the very well known Jamel Debouzze) without first checking him for explosives. He then mockingly calls on the impoverished youth to join him in his conversion to American-Israeli extreme zionism, and ends by making a Nazi salute while saying either "Israel" or "Isra-Heil", thus implicitly linking zionism and nazism. The sketch was very well received by the audience and the various invited guests on the show, though recognised as being a bit risky by the host. Dieudonne then sits with the other guests and goes on during the discussion to say that his aim is to overcome the "communitarism" of current French social discourse in which people are categorised by their ethnic community, be it black, arab or jewish.

178.167.142.115 (talk) 20:18, 7 January 2014 (UTC)Bart in Ireland - lived a long time in France.

I believe Bart in Ireland is talking about this edit on 5 Jan by User:Blaue Max.

A few days later, User:Pluto2012 changed it on 19:07, 9 January 2014‎ to read,

...performed a sketch in a TV show about a Israeli settler who he pictured as a Nazi.

The original sentence you objected to was taken from the lede where it probably does not belong, at least not in so much detail. Your correction of it, which may be accurate, would be even more inappropriate (too long) in the lede. Possibly you could consider adding it lower down in the article, but frankly, so much detail about a single sketch by someone who has uploaded many, many videos is simply way too much detail for an encyclopedia article about him. If Pluto2012's fix doesn't satisfy you, you can edit it yourself to improve it.

Good luck, and please consider registering an account as a Misplaced Pages user.

Mathglot (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikieditorpro removed the information about the 1st sketch. I put it back.

He also performed several modifications, some of which sounds ok (particularly regarding the motivation of Valls to forbid his shows) and other clearly not.

I tried to correct all this without deleting his acceptable work but that was not easy.

Feel free to comment here. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, your chronological ordering of events is clearly based on your own opinion. For example the media boycott was based on his later anti-Semitic statements rather than that one incident. Also, you incorrectly stated that Valls' statement was a response to Anelka's action despite the fact that they clearly were not. The lead is supposed to be a concise overview WP:LEAD. The incident of 2003 is discussed later on the article and is not important enough that it needs 10 lines. If it deserves to appear (and I don't believe that it does), it should be summarized in a sentence or two and the details left for later in the article. Furthermore, the statement that he was 'mocking' Nick Cohen is your own interpretation of his statements. Categorizing the opinions shared by Dieudonné and Soral as "anti-establishment" and "anti-Zionist" is POV, whereas according to numerous others their views are anti-Semitic. I chose to avoid any hint of POV by simply stating that they are friends that share views.

Regarding his statement on Nick Cohen, Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion is that the statement is well-sourced as per WP:RS. The portion in the brackets is taken directly from the source. Therefore there is no reason to remove it. Removing that portion strips the context and linguistic implications from it. Wikieditorpro (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

On the contrary most of your edits are pov-ed.

There is no other solutions but to discuss here, one by one, your modification proposals. Pluto2012 (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I explained my points here, you haven't responded to even one of them. Please stop reverting without discussion. Wikieditorpro (talk) 23:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You went ahead and undid everything including the well-sourced information that I added to the page. If you want to remove information, discuss that here too before you do so.

Finally, please refrain from replacing sentences in the lead with others that are both misspelled and grammatically incorrect as you did last time. Wikieditorpro (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I ask you to discuss each point at a time.

If you make several modifications at once it is not possible to follow.

There is no hurry so instead of having a fighting spirit, just start the discussion on 1 point so that we can analyse it and find the right way to introduce the information. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I've already explained many points and you haven't responded to a single one. If you have any problem with any of my additions then state it here and I'll respond. I reject your attempt to saddle me with completely unnecessary restraints in order to add information. I am acting in according with Misplaced Pages's rules WP:ED and WP:RS not yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikieditorpro (talk • contribs) 06:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello Wikieditopro,

What I ask you is to write here what you want to change, say why shortly and that we can discuss this to have a consensus and have the best version possible.

But one point at a time and quietly.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I've already explained numerous edits and you have refused to discuss any of them because I am not writing them exactly as you wish. I completely reject your childish and patronizing behavior of reverting everything unless I act in accordance with your wishes. Wikieditorpro (talk) 06:22, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

You made too many edits, some ok others not.

I just ask you to discuss each of them, one by one, quietly ?

Why do you refuse ?

You just have to add a sub-section here below and make a proposal.

When validated, that's ok and that can go (very) fast.

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

(And you can refuse but I will revert you. I don't patronize, I just try to spare time.)

You are not saving anyone time by demanding that I bring each and every point in accordance with your whims and caprices. I don't believe that even you are stupid enough to believe that your stalling tactics save anyone time. There is no rule in Misplaced Pages stating that I can't discuss five edits in one paragraph. This is now the 5th time that you are using stalling tactics instead of discussing the points I brought up earlier. Wikieditorpro (talk) 15:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If there is no point to discuss, then you can go away. Or you can discuss. You are welcome for this. I answered to you here below. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

You "discussed" (read wrongly invoked a dubious rule) on one point and ignored all the others. You continue to distort the article in order to shamelessly defend a proven anti-Semite. Wikieditorpro (talk) 02:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Gas chambers

I added the exact quote of what he said without interpretations from another source. All sources do not add what France24 added. I even think no other one does so. Per WP:V and WP:BLP, wikipedia has to take care and we have to correct the mistake of France24. Pluto2012 (talk) 21:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The entire quote is both well-sourced and necessary to present the context of the statement. The fact that they are in brackets means that they were implied but not stated. France24 and every other major news agency uses brackets for this purpose. (see Garner, B. 2009. Garner's Modern American Usage, 3rd Edition, p. 682. New York: Oxford University Press.)

More importantly in this case they are necessary to remove the obvious ambiguity which is present without them (i.e. is it a pity that gas chambers existed, or that they don't exist now. Put in the context of his attack on Nick Cohen, the answer is obvious.) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Brackets_and_parentheses).

As per WP:EP and WP:RS, the more information the better. Wikieditorpro (talk) 00:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Not all sources add what was in brackets. In fact, only one.

Wnat would be the other sources that add this ?

It is false to claim per WP:RS, the more information the better. WP:RS says the information must come from Reliable Sources. WP:EP has a section that explains what information must be removed and WP:BLP is clearly given.

It is not because one source make interpretation that we can report this. That is not enough.

Pluto2012 (talk) 05:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

No reliable sources are needed to give context to the statements as per https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Brackets_and_parentheses. It so happens that I have one. No one has interpreted his statements in any other way. I don't understand why using that quote in its entirety violates WP:BLP in any way. The fact that the quote is so obnoxious is because that is the nature of his views. The information in the square brackets does nothing but remove the obvious ambiguity when the statement is quoted out of context. Wikieditorpro (talk) 06:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Important : this article is difficult and about a living people. I will revert you if you don't get consensus 'before' you modify the article on contentious issues. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Where is your consensus? And exactly how does the quote violate WP:BLP? Or are you again looking for rules that allow you to revert any edits with no or minimal discussion that don't cast Dieudonné in a favorable light? Wikieditorpro (talk) 07:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Here is my feeling:

Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala is a living person. So, WP:BLP applies.

WP:BLP requires that we are very careful in what we report about living people.

1 source states that he regretted "gas chambers didn't exist"; which would mean he would expect all Jews to be assassinated, whereas in truth, what he said (and which is reported by the other sources), is that he regretted a man was living while mocking him. There is a difference.

Therefore, my point is that it is wiser to report exactly what he said without interpretation instead of reporting a source that makes interpretation per WP:BLP. What he said precisely is unacceptable enough and there is not need to modify this.

Pluto2012 (talk) 18:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It has been proven by several other users that you are dishonest, and here is more proof that your statement that France24 is the only one with the bracketed addition is false. All it took was one Google search: https://www.google.com/search?q=Gas+chambers...+too+bad.[they+no+longer+exist

It's obvious from your recent edits that you expend much effort to defend anti-Semites, however trying to give ambiguity to a statement that is absolutely clear to everyone (except you) in context, is plain dishonesty. As is your apparent refusal to read Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style and understand the purpose that brackets serve. Wikieditorpro (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

If your answer is : "It's obvious from your recent edits that you expend much effort to defend anti-Semites"; ie if you refuse to accept I am WP:AGF, then the discussion stops.

If you want to discuss a contrusctive way in stating what can be done, you are welcome.

NB: if your proposal is to provide the full quote with "too bad" instead of a partial quote with "which he regrets" that's ok for me.

Pluto2012 (talk) 09:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Your petty, patronizing, and time-wasting demands that I must frame my points in exactly the manner that suits both your taste and your stalling tactics, as well as your childish actions in reverting wholesale without discussion, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are not acting in good faith. This viewpoint is supported by other editors. It's not my opinion, it's the evidence. Wikieditorpro (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

A plea for calm, guys. I don't actually think you disagree as much as one might think from reading the exchange above. In fact, what's going on here imho, is kind of exactly what Dieudonné is famous for, namely polarizing people by making outrageous statements that fall just barely short of the legal line (and sometimes cross over it). Please let me explain, and see what you think, because I think we can find common ground here:

Dieudonné's comments on Patrick Cohen are horrifying, I think we all agree, right? and it's clear he's a scurrilous antisemite, but as a fluent French speaker and someone who desires to hold strictly to WP policies, especially concerning biographies of living persons, I tend to agree with some of what Pluto2012 said on this one. On the other hand, since France24 did include the bracketed addition, as Wikieditorpro said, it's fair to include that, also in brackets in the English, perhaps with a note, if required, to make it clear that it is an editorial expansion and not a direct quote, although I tend to agree with Wikieditorpro that no such note would really be required since that's precisely what brackets mean both in French as well as in English.

My feeling is that D's original words are sufficient, and France24 needn't have added a bracket comment, in a way it's kind of insulting to readers. But here's a little background on why they did that, imho.

D is not stupid, in fact he's very smart, and a large part of his popularity and ability to weasel out of a lot of the accusations made against him, is precisely because of the ambiguity of his statements--his ability to skate right up to the precipice, dangle one leg over the edge and teeter a bit, but pull back just shy of clear defamation and law-breaking. So the way he phrased his comment was not accidental, there was just enough uncertainty about what it meant to avoid (in his calculation) breaking the law. Sometimes he gets it wrong of course and is convicted, but that's part of what you get when you skate on thin ice all the time. But his skating up to the edge is exactly what he is all about, it's his stock in trade. The more he can poke his target in the eye and get away with it, the more his supporters love it and cheer him on (and buy tickets to his shows). So there's no accident about how he phrases things.

France24 decided to call him on it by offering some additional text, but most (non-legal) people would say the original quote stands on its own, and any reasonable person would understand the intent, even if he left in just a hint of deniability. Let's look at his actual words:

Tu vois lui, si le vent tourne, je ne suis pas sûr qu'il ait le temps de faire ses valises. Moi, tu vois, quand je l'entends parler, Patrick Cohen, je me dis, tu vois, les chambres à gaz... Dommage !

My translation:

You know--that guy, if the wind starts blowing from the other direction, I'm not sure he'll have the time to pack his bags and leave. You know, when I hear him talking--Patrick Cohen--I think, you know, the gas chambers... Too bad!

And in my opinion, that's why we're talking about brackets. It's a self-evident provocation, with just a soupçon of deniability. France24 just decided to state explicitly what pretty much everybody knew he meant (although I wish they would have just let the quote stand).

By the way, just for the record, there's a recording of him, not sure if it's the same one that France24 is talking about, because the words are slightly different than the ones in the France24. Since he was in performance, it could be he ad libs somewhat, and so from performance to performance the actual wording may change a bit, but the changes are inconsequential, and the basic structure is the same, he still mentions Patrick Cohen and the gas chambers, but the "ya-know"s and the "I think"s and other connecting words are placed differently.

Technically, Pluto2012 is right that he never said outright--at least in the quote in France24--that the gas chambers don't exist, or that Cohen should go to the gas chambers, and given WP:BLP we should be conservative about what we say. However, if France24 included it, bracketed or not, then surely we can quote that, as Wikieditorpro says, as long as brackets are in place here as well. (Even without passing judgement on whether France24 made a "mistake" or not--because since WP is an encyclopedia, we're not trying to determine Truth here, we're reporting on what Reliable sources said. If they are vastly outnumbered in the press, we can report that fact, too.)

The fact that there's a controversy going on about this here in the Talk page is kind of a reflection of D's "skating on thin ice" strategy. What about if we just mention that French sources don't all agree about how to report his quotes, with some supplying the brackets and others not? Don't fall for his tactics: let's not let him manipulate Misplaced Pages through polarization like he attempts to do with everyone else. Mathglot (talk) 21:54, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Other point

Opinion polls

2014 controversy

I am sorry but any public polls from newspapers websites have shown a 60-80% support to Dieudonne, only closed polls from CSA ( state owned institute ) and other opinion polls institute which lack transparancy in France ( lets say they've been proven wrong on any poll for the past 20 years ) have revealed bad support, at least show both results.
(signed by ?)

Are there sources for this ? Pluto2012 (talk) 07:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

French editors welcome: please ask for translation help if you need it

Welcome, French editors!

This article is attracting contributions from editors on French wikipedia, you are welcome here--the more the merrier.

However, if you are not bilingual, then please ask for translation help as the quality of the article has gone down recently, with the addition of much material which is not formulated in proper English.

I don't want to point fingers at individuals (there are several) so I won't add links here on purpose, but such turns of phrase as "The interdiction of the first show...was confirmed by justice" or "mocking a Jewish journalist for whom he regretted gaz chamber" is either incorrect or sounds like machine-translation. These are subject to being reverted.

You can leave proposed changes or additions here, if you wish, and add a request for it to be translated. Secondly, in the case of quotes included in the {{Citation}} template |quote= parameter, unless you are perfectly bilingual, please just use the original French text in the quote, and leave the English out. If the quote needs translation, someone may come along and translate it later.

Secondly: English wikipedia reference templates are different than on fr, so be careful when importing references. Mathglot (talk) 08:17, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I attempted to fix those obvious English errors, however pluto2012 has stubbornly reverted everything with little regard for the accuracy or POV of the lead. Wikieditorpro (talk) 20:27, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Several NPOV breaches...happy to assist.79.74.102.6 (talk) 19:38, 21 January 2014 (UTC)twl79.74.102.6 (talk) 19:38, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that "English errors" would be good English. More, before "owever" a point is expected and certainly not a coma. "has reverted" is not correct. "reverted" (simple past) is expected here. I confirm that I didn't "revert() with little regard for the (...) POV of the lead". I did so for the NPoV of the lead.

For your information: Mathglot supported my version about the 2003 event in a discussion here above (the one in which you reacted vehemently)...

Pluto2012 (talk) 20:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. You've refused to discuss anything either here or on your talk page despite the evidence that I've cited, which clearly shows your lack of good faith. Wikieditorpro (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Bias towards current controversial intepretation of 'la quenelle'.

He has a long career in comedy; as it stands the article is heavily biased towards a rather small part of it, and the controversy surrounding it. Hope someone can add a little more depth, perhaps cross-link to other comedians who have used a 'nazi like salute' in their humour - particularly in Nazi-held territories under Hitler. 79.74.102.6 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2014 (UTC)twl79.74.102.6 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

fraudulent insolvency

Dieudonné is not only controversial for his politics. Right now he's under investigation for fraudulent insolvency and money laundering. He didn't pay his fines of 65000 euros that he was condemned for. He claimed to be penniless and asked his fans for donations. But when the police raided his house, they found 650000 euros and 15000 dollars. In cash. He also owns a property with swimming pool and tennis court, a 68000 euros barge, a 20000 euros Mercedes, a 10000 euros quad bike... Not bad for an insolvent.
Source : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/778796canard1.jpg
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2014/02/12/la-pretendue-banqueroute-de-dieudonne-mise-en-echec_979855
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/justice/la-fortune-cachee-de-dieudonne_1323338.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.11.46.107 (talk) 17:45, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

20,000 € seems very little for a Mercedes... Pluto2012 (talk) 19:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Lede

The lede should be no more than four paragraphs, so it needs some massaging.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The lede used to be way too short. Lengthening proved pretty controversial but eventually it was done but by now it is so long that people are beginning to put things twice in it... *facepalm*. It definitely needs pruning. Mezigue (talk) 18:55, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Gas Chambers

Really, that should be updated, french news, called media-mensonge by Dieudonne , meaning media-lies, have cut a part of his show, that isn't relevant, cut out of his context. The phrase was texto "Tu vois lui, si le vent tourne, je ne suis pas sûr qu'il ait le temps de faire ses valises. Moi, tu vois, quand je l'entends parler, Patrick Cohen, je me dis, tu vois, les chambres à gaz... Dommage !", to what was added 'it's a silly brain talking to you' referring to what he has been called in an interview months earlier by Patrick Cohen, jewish and sionist, as alain soral , patrick nabe, and tariq ramadan! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeeeLO2UIuk !So now, that was part of the show for dieudonne to interpret a 'silly brain', that isn't us to judge, if we like it or not, but that is the fact! That's why it wasn't considered antisemite, or encouraging people to hatred, when the show was suited , in Nates tribunal! Manuel valls, decided to obstruct the decision of justice and to resort to the state council tribunal! A decision that have really controversed by the population and comedians! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shokol8 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Bloated External Links section Suggestion

The External Links section is bloated, having eleven links. If there's one external link that should be there, it's the official Dieudonné website, but since it was absent, I added it just now. The other links should probably be pruned way back, eliminated, or used (if appropriate) as inline references. See WP:EL. Mathglot (talk) 22:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

"I am Charlie coulibaly"

User:Sayerslle has a conflict of interest and is engaged in edit warring. 85.241.122.28 (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

user sayerslle is facing a bunch of SPAs and editors with one sodding edit seeking to censor this article imo. pathetic. what do you mean I have a conflict of interest? meaningless Sayerslle (talk) 16:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The source might be considered reliable but your edit is not. You are a European Union supporter and possibly Christian. Yes, you have a conflict of interest, specially when you add biased sentences. 85.241.122.28 (talk) 16:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Low-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class Comedy articles
• Low-importance Comedy articles
• WikiProject Comedy articles
• B-Class France articles
• Low-importance France articles
• All WikiProject France pages
• B-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Low-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles