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Schizophrenia received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Schizophrenia Linked to Genetic Mutation". ABC News. October 24, 2005.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Schizophrenia Linked to Genetic Mutation". Forbes. October 24, 2005.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Internet encyclopaedias go head to head (Box 1)". Nature (journal). December 14, 2005.

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to 25 June 2006 Ideogram 13:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Violence section deletion

Mihai, please stop deleting the violence section. This has already been discussed here, and you have already taken the fact that you disagree with its presence to mediation before pulling out of the process. The research presented in this section is from peer-reviewed scientific journals, if you can provide updated or contradictory evidence from similarly respected sources, it's inclusion would be much appreciated. Simply deleting the section is not acceptable, however.

- Vaughan 13:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles on other health disorders don't have violence sections, and there is no rational reason for schizophrenia to be singled out like that. --Mihai cartoaje 04:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason schizophrenia has a violence section is because there are common misconceptions about violence and schizophrenia, and there is a huge amount of research and discussion on the issue. - Vaughan 07:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Mihai, I have now referred this to mediation. - Vaughan 12:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If he's already pulled out of a mediation, I don't think another one is going to help. You could try to appeal to a broader community for consensus by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment. Ideogram 15:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The issue is currently listed as requiring a new mediator, and I would be willing to do so on this case. I have a bit non-professional experience with mental health issues. - MSTCrow 00:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid edit-warring during the mediation. That goes for all sides; if someone else makes an edit do not respond in kind. Ideogram 13:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's rules about removing obvious vandalism are clear. This is the disputed section:

Schizophrenia and violence

Violence perpetrated by people with schizophrenia

Although schizophrenia is sometimes associated with violence in the media, only a small minority of people with schizophrenia become violentTemplate:Fn, and only a minority of people who commit criminal violence have been diagnosed with schizophreniaTemplate:Fn Template:Fn.

Research has suggested that schizophrenia is associated with a slight increase in risk of violence, although this risk is largely due to a small sub-group of individuals for whom violence is associated with concurrent substance abuse and ceasing psychiatric drugsTemplate:Fn. For the most serious acts of violence, long-term independent studies of convicted murderers in both New ZealandTemplate:Fn and SwedenTemplate:Fn found that 3.7%–8.9% had been given a previous diagnosis of schizophrenia.

There is some evidence to suggest that in some people, the drugs used to treat schizophrenia may produce an increased risk for violence, largely due to agitation induced by akathisia, a side effect sometimes associated with antipsychotic medication.Template:Fn Similarly, abuse experienced in childhood may contribute both to a slight increase in risk for violence in adulthood, as well as the development of schizophrenia.Template:Fn

Violence against people with schizophrenia

Research has shown that a person diagnosed with schizophrenia is more likely to be a victim of violence (4.3% in a one month period) than the perpetratorTemplate:Fn.

Mihai

Your first edit to the Schizophrenia page was on 09:49, 24 January 2006 when the text in question was already in existence, so replacing it after you've deleted it is hardly vandalism.

- Vaughan 06:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is very clearly not vandalism, just a content dispute. Ideogram 12:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Vaughan and Mihai, do you agree to mediation by myself? - MSTCrow 03:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me - Vaughan 07:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. --Mihai cartoaje 13:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll start with Mihai. Mihai, do you disagree with Vaughan's assertion that many people perceive a high level of assocation between schizophrenics and violence, and that this assocation is a fallacy? - MSTCrow 15:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware of any association between schizophrenia and violence before reading wikipedia's article. Websites on the internet that try to make readers think that people with schizophrenia are violent have something to gain by doing it. schizophrenia.com is a forced-drugging advocacy group which, according to our article, is pharmaceutical-sponsored. For example, if we click on their advocacy section, we get directed to the Treatment Advocacy Center. schizophrenia.com says that delusions cause violence; however, Vaughan presented a study in the archives in which the authors tried and failed to find a correlation between delusions and violence.

As to any actual link between schizophrenia and violence, almost all studies on the schizophrenia population found less than 4 times the normal rate, with one of them finding that people with schizophrenia were more often the victims than the victimizers. The actual rate might be even lower than that because those studies don't say how people with drug-induced mental problems were counted. Members of the schizophrenia population who have not abused drugs might have an even lower rate. --Mihai cartoaje 02:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

May I interject for a moment? I have had no involvement with this article in the past, but generally when violence and a mental disorder are mentioned together, I take heed. I have found from my personal experience that a lot of people assume that things like being tagged with diagnoses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder automatically mean violent tendencies in a person. You're right, this is a misleading probability - but I saw nothing in the disputed section to make one think that schizophrenics are violent - to the contrary, the section did well to dispell that myth. In my humble opinion, I think that if just one person reads this article and become aware that schizophrenics aren't generally violent (as at least the US media would make you think), I think the article serves the interest of those folks who have the disorder. I'll crawl back into my hole now. CQJ 03:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Mihai, If you can quote studies to back up your assertions it would aide the discussion. You are right about drug-induced mental health issues being responsible for many of the cases of violence in people with schizophrenia, as was noted in the original text. Delusions do have a small association with violence, however, as also noted in a recent review article on the topic.

As shown by surveys from mental health charities (e.g. this one from Mind), there is significant public misconception about the link between violence and mental illness. The original text in the article aims to dispell those myths by presenting the evidence from peer-reviewed scientific studies.

Therefore, schizophrenia.com's opinions on this matter are neither here not there as they are not quoted or used as a source.

- Vaughan 09:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Mihai, what do you mean by a forced-drugging group? Do you disagree that it would be reasonable for a pharma company to be most likely to be knowledgeable about the mental illness in question, as they seek to produce treatments for the illness? - MSTCrow 13:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If I may say so, MSTCrow, this is a distraction from the issue at hand. The issue is Mihai's reasons for wanting the violence section deleted (he has given none so far except alluding to the idea that people may think people with schizophrenia are violent if they read the actual research in this area - which in my opinion, dispells this myth), not whether he thinks drug companies are most knowledgeable about mental illness.

- Vaughan 16:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

schizophrenia.com directs surfers to psychlaws dot org, and you can go there to see what they are about.

pharmaceutical companies don't always know everything, as shown by this experiment . --Mihai cartoaje 09:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Mihai, I'm having difficulty understanding why you believe the violence section should be deleted. Is it something related to the perceived connection between schizophrenia and violence, or because a link that states there is a misperception between violence and schizophrenia originated from a pharmaceutical company? - MSTCrow 03:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Mihai, are you intending to continue with mediation? - Vaughan 06:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles on other health disorders don't have violence sections, and there is no rational reason for schizophrenia to be singled out like that. --Mihai cartoaje 05:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

That is not a reason to delete the violence section on schizophrenia. Schizophrenia has a violence section because a) there is a lot of public misconception about the link (i.e. the media singles out schizophrenia - which the section aims to address with the actual statistics) b) there is a huge amount of research into violence and schizophrenia, which doesn't exist to the same degree (although there is some) for other disorders.

This is just going round in circles. Mihai has produced exactly the same reasons for deleting the section again and again, despite the fact that it is proportional to the scientific concern over the subject, is proportional to the public concern over the issue, and it represents the research accurately. I really don't think it is acceptable that one person can remove large parts of an article on a whim and then have other people have to defend its reinclusion. MSTCrow, your input would be appreciated. - Vaughan 09:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Zelda Fitzgerald

Isn't it misleading to call her a "painter"? If some activity other than being Scott Fitzgerald's wife is called for "writer" would be more accurate--she published a novel and helped Scott with his writing. ⅔

Cannabis association

"Nevertheless, some previous research in this area has been criticised as it has often not been clear whether cannabis use is a cause or effect of schizophrenia."

Could someone please explain to me how cannabis use is an effect of schizophrenia? Is this saying people with schizophrenia are more prone to use cannabis? If so, I think there should be a linked study. At the very least this sentence should be rephrased.

Hi there,

People with mental illness are many times more likely to use drugs and alcohol, partly in an attempt to relieve the distressing symptoms and experiences.

If you read the reference 48 paper, it deals with exactly these issues.

- Vaughan 15:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

'Viral cause' section

Someone has added to the article viral claims which come from a dubious source and have not been independently replicated. If you look through my edit history, you would see that everything I have added to Misplaced Pages has been independently replicated. --Mihai cartoaje 03:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The claims do not come from a dubious source. They are published in a peer-review scientific journal. However, I agree with your general point. The section is derived from a single study which actually shows no clear causal link, so I've removed the section and have included it below.

I note, however, that you're quite happy to remove sections from the article which contains research from respected sources that has been widely and extensively independently verified.

- Vaughan 08:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A 2001 study by Johns Hopkins University Children's Center found the moloecular "footprint" of a retrovirus in the cerebrospinal fluid of 30 percent of people with accute schizophrenia and about 7 percent of those with chronic schizophrenia. The "footprint" was created by retroviral RNA by active expression of an endogenous retrovirus known as HERV-W.Template:Fn Researchers at Johns Hopkins have also found associations between a high level of maternal Herpes Simplex Type 2 antibodies and onset of adult psychosis in offspring. Researchers have also found a 508 percent increase in the risk of developing schizophrenia if born in the winter or early spring when indections deseases are more rampant.Template:Fn

Template:FnbKarlsson,H.; Bachmann, S.; Schröder, J.; McArthur, J; Torry, E.F.; Yolken, R.H. (2001)Retroviral RNA identified in the cerebrospinal fluids and brains of individuals with schizophrenia. PNAS, 98(8), 4634-4639.

Template:FnbYolken, R.H. (2004)Viruses and Schizophrenia: A Focus on the Herpes Simplex Virus

Why not just add some kind of note explaining that the study has not been verified by other sources since then and that the result is preliminary because it is only based on a single study? It might still be useful information. Since the source is apparently legitimate, why not include the information? Ram-Man 11:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Because hundreds of studies are published on schizophrenia every month. Including every single finding would make a mess of the article. Hence, the article should really represent the most significant knowledge about the condition, and not just list individual research findings.

- Vaughan 11:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I've given this some more thought and I wanted to point out that the section under "Prognosis" that talks about the "World Health Organization" taking couple of "long-term" studies. In that case, the information suggested that there is some link to developed nations and schizophrenia. Yet, nothing more is said about the link or whether it was proven or disproven. Yet we consider the source to be reliable. Most likely that same standard would eliminate large chunks of this article. There is no precedent for not including data simply because we don't personally think it is legitimate. Information that is early or speculative but authoritative should be included, but with a proper explanation. If it turns out the viral link was wrong, well then it is an interesting historical fact. If it turns out that the link is something, well we don't want to miss out on that either. The same could be said about the studies I mentioned at the start of this post. For all we know it is just errors in methodology, but maybe not. Ram-Man 11:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Schizophrenia patients having better long-term recovery without neuroleptics has been independently replicated. The NIMH pitted chlorpromazine (Thorazine), fluphenazine (Prolixin), thioridazine (Mellaril) and a wonder drug named Placebo(TM) and the winner was Placebo(TM) .--Mihai cartoaje 17:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Mihai,

You are citing a single 1967 paper to back up your point. You need to consider the research as a whole to fully back up an argument. There are many more research studies which do not support this result. I encourage you to look them up on PubMed.

- Vaughan 15:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Given I just read your post as I was typing the above, I will say this: Why is the World Health Organization study still included then? Ram-Man 11:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Your point is well taken that single studies (or multiple studies by a single group) are suspect and highly speculative in nature, because they have not been repeated by others in the field. But perhaps in this case that can be overridden. We are not asked to make a choice between good information and speculative information. We are making a choice between no information (not letting the article contain information on a potential viral cause) and some early information. Of course if at any time there is clearer information available, then we should use that instead. Ram-Man 12:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you read the study, you'll find that it is not a study by a single organization, but a study co-published by many different organizations around the world. (Including Johns Hopkins, the University of Heidelberg, and a NAMI institute). The article saw print 5 years ago, and, according to PubMED, there is extensive research being done on the the retrovirus itself and its effects on human DNA. In the four years that I have been studying schizophrenia, I have not found any research that claims this study to be false, and it's only a five-year-old study, which could explain why it has yet to be replicated (that I know of, at least.) Dlmccaslin 22:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Upon thinking, I tried some more searching, and found a study conducted in Germany published by the Journal of Virology (American Society of Microbiology) that found HERVs overrepresented in the spinal fluids of pateirts with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder . Dlmccaslin 23:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's the University of Heildelberg again. --Mihai cartoaje 20:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Might I suggest using this source: Seasonality of births in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder: a review of the literature, Schizophr Res. 1997 Nov 7;28(1):1-38 rather than this source: A systematic review and meta-analysis of Northern Hemisphere season of birth studies in schizophrenia, Schizophr Bull. 2003;29(3):587-93 for the seasonality citation? It's from several years earlier, but it reviews over 250 studies rather than 8, and also covers both hemispheres -- Josh 05:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

508 percent increase

Researchers have also found a 508 percent increase in the risk of developing schizophrenia if born in the winter or early spring when indections deseases are more rampant.Template:Fn

Is this legitimate? We have another reference in the article to this where it states a "small" increase. If we have another source that is claiming a major influence, we should be taking that into consideration. Ram-Man 12:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ram-Man,

The point of not including the viral stuff into the article is an essentially editorial decision. Studies shouldn't simply be included because they've been published, but because of the quality of the study, and the significant of the study.

The quality of the study can be judged by understanding its methodology. For example, a single study well-conducted study that has a methodology that allows a causal inference and has significant power to draw strong enough conclusions is worth many more correlational studies.

The significance of a study is based on a wider theoretical understanding of the field. A study (particularly of the high quality type mentioned above) might be particularly influential, and hence worth of note in an encyclopaedia article.

Simply listing study results does not make for a good article. As far as I know, there have been no studies on schizophrenia that have demonstrated a causal role for viruses in schizophrenia. As a consequence, it is rarely discussed in textbooks, lectures or research papers.

Hence, I would argue that devoting a whole paragraph to it as a 'cause' is both misleading (there is only circumstantial evidence for any causal role) and overstating its importance in the field.

Perhaps, it could be added to the 'alternative approaches to schizophrenia' section, though? As this section has the more speculative stuff in it.

As for the 508% result, it sounds highly suspect to me, and I have never heard it stated elsewhere, although I've not read the paper which was linked to.

- Vaughan 15:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed pre-pulse inhibition merge

I don't see any reason to merge this article with schizophrenia as it is an experimental method that is not specific to schizophrenia. Although it has been used widely in schizophrenia research, it has also been used to investigate anxiety, depression and panic disorder to name but a few.

Unfortunately, the prepulse inhibition article is so badly written as to suggest that it is purely a model of schizophrenia.

So, if there are no objections, I'll remove the merge tag at the top of the article.

- Vaughan 15:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Regarding "the term 'schizophrenia' translates roughly as 'shattered mind,'" -- when I took a seminar in college where we discussed schizophrenia, the professor translated the term literally, as "split mind." There are also 111 results on Google Scholar for "schizophrenia 'split mind'" as compared to 14 for "schizophrenia 'shattered mind'".

...following up on one of those Google Scholar hits, I've found this: "Eugene Bleuler (1857-1939) ... introduced the term schizophrenia (Gr: 'split mind')... . Bleuler intended the term to describe a division between thought, emotion and behaviour in affected patients." in Schizophrenia: Genesis, Receptorology and Current Therapeutics, Capuano et al., Current Medicinal Chemistry 2002, 9, 521-548. Bleuler and his contribution to schizophrenia have been addressed elsewhere in the article, but I think we should a) change the rough translation to "split mind" as it's more commongly used, b) add in the citation, and c) maybe add a little bit about why Bleuler chose the term that he did. Thoughts?

- Josh 05:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts are, a) Seems like a pointless debate over two words that are essentially the same, b) Why? The article cited attempts to assign motives for Bleuler, which the authors cannot possibly know, c) See b. As in, no one could possibly know that, so why waste time and space with pointless speculation. Change the translation, the rest is useless and unnecessary.

I agree that the translation we use should match the most common usage unless there is compelling evidence in print form that the other translation is used. Ram-Man 11:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

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