Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:36, 18 July 2006

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

What Really Happened afd2

• Just wanted to let you know that an anon IP changed your Delete to a Keep, so I changed it back. Diffs posted on the discussion.--Isotope23 16:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom Harrison 16:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What a disaster that Afd is.--MONGO 16:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Instructive though, in a sick, sad way. Tom Harrison 23:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean? SkeenaR 02:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The site says, "help keep us on Misplaced Pages" and fans show up and "vote" keep. Tom Harrison 03:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that. But do you really think the site is not notable enough to keep? I'm not a regular there, but I know it's an alternative staple. SkeenaR 03:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like it fails WP:WEB, and I think WP:WEB is already too inclusive. Because we are often on line, and get a lot of our information there, I think we introduce a bias that exaggerates the importance of on-line material. But I'm content to give my opinion and let the AfD take its course. The closing admin will have to disentangle the wikipedia community's consensus from the meaningless remarks by people who only showed up to vote. Ultimately, the WP:WEB guideline is whatever we choose to make it. Tom Harrison 03:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. I've never gone over WP:WEB, so I'll check it out. Off the top of my head I'll say that web based information is growing exponentially in influence, traffic, peoples ability to access it, and in some cases, reliability. For those reasons, I find it hard to exaggerate the importance of on-line material. SkeenaR 03:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

See my interesting findings, i showed them on the afd, and then explain to me why it fails WPWEB. --Striver 17:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I see three criteria for web content: multiple non-trivial published works; a well known and independent award; content distributed by a site well known and independent. The mentions in the Toronto Star, even taken at face value, don't seen to me to satisfy the first. The awards mentioned are not well known. The third item seems not to apply. Finally, that AfD page is a zoo, and I won't be commenting there, or here, further. I've given my opinion and am content to let the closing admin decide. Tom Harrison 18:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Specific properties

What bothered me was stuff like this: "For instance, it is easier to conceptualize an acceleration of 2 g's than an acceleration of 19.6 meters per second squared." "specific" doesn't mean "in some relative form", it normally means per unit of mass. See my note on the article's talk page. Thanks. --John Nagle 21:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hah! the old trick of hiding discussion about the article on the article discussion page. Clever... Tom Harrison 23:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Irishpunktom Arbcom case

Greetings Tom, I wanted to inform you that I've made commentary here relative to you blocking and subsequently unblocking User:Dbiv. I was thinking that you might want to comment yourself in view of the assumptions I've made there. Thanks. Netscott 18:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni da Verrazzano

And now I have to remove all the redirects I had done.... Thanks a lot. I seem that here administrators got too stick with useless rules instead of looking at the quality of articles first. --Attilios 13:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Third Revert

I believe you have just reverted the Criteria for Speedy Deletion article for the 3rd time. Isn't there a rule for that? Surely you should have taken it to the discussion on the topic instead of just wading in heavy handed and blatantly reverting it because you felt like it? Where are your manners or show of good faith???? Enigmatical 02:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

There was already discussion going on about this on the talk page, but you chose to simply revert it (which was the 3rd revert made of it after mine and Tony's): Here Enigmatical 03:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

And besides violating the three-revert rule, you see my edit as demonstrating bad manners and lack of good faith? Tom Harrison 03:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

How would you describe an act where an ongoing discussion was ignored and the revert done despite it? Does such an act show consideration for the discussion? From this side it appears as if you feel your views have more weight and do not need to be discussed in order to reach conscensus, but I am willing to use "good faith" (something people are shoving down my throat lately while blatantly ignoring it themselves) in that you accidentally ignored the talk page, didn't look at any previous revisions and just coincidentally happened to make the same revert that had already been done twice. I believe Occam's razor would be validly used here. Enigmatical 03:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, there was no accident. I saw your edit, thought it was not an improvement, and changed it back. I don't think it warrants an extended dabate on the talk page. Write up a 3rr report if you want; as you say, mine was the third revert. You can have the last word if you want it. Tom Harrison 03:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Unlike yourself, I firmly believe in trying to understand where the other side is coming from before I do things and so I would like to know why you feel it does not improve things? Clearly from history it has been shown that the definition of those two terms has been a soruce of confusion, and surely using wiktionaries own definition for them would go a long way in clarifying them for people. Did you bother to read the talk page at all? It does clearly outline why I think they are important, yet you have done nothing at all to clearly outline why you feel they are not. Enigmatical 03:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you have no intention to enter into discussion, nor any intention of seeking conscesus. Why you feel that your views have more value of other people is beyond me. You have shown incrdibly bad faith, have been rude in the way you have conducted yourself and in my opinion have done nothing to improve wikipedia in this matter. Your claim that Precent should be used is obviously false as a result of this still being an issue that is debated and those many people who have complained about the fuzzy definitions being arbitrarily used to delete certain recent userboxes. Enigmatical 01:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you and I have anything we can usefully discuss. Best wishes, Tom Harrison 01:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: VProtect on Sailor moon media & release information

Sir, I don't know whether you were aware, but this article was recently added to the list of requests for protection, and was denied protection on the ground that there was not enough recent vandalism to justify protection. An article I have been reverting on for God knows how long is turned down for protection for the same reason, and the person who denied the request has not answered my appeal. Between myself and other RCP's and CVU/VCN members, we have reverted 20 vandal attacks on this page ( Tweenies ) since the 28th of June! Could you please, considering you have Vprotected the article I refer to, consider Vprotection on Tweenies to give us poor RCP's a break??? Thanks. Thor Malmjursson 13:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Category:Protected deleted pages

Mainly delete the pages that was protected for over two months now unless it was recreated too many times over a long period of time, or deleted by special circumstances like Brian Peppers. Thanks Jaranda 01:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Your edit to 7 World Trade Center

I noticed you marked this edit as a minor edit. "Marking a major change as a minor one is considered poor etiquette, especially if the change involves the deletion of some text."

Was this a mistake on your part? I certainly wouldn't consider this a minor edit.

Please see Help:Minor edit for further details. Thanks. --Guinnog 13:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The anonymous editor added a statement that Larry Silverstein admited on camera that he ordered the building's demolition. I reverted it out of hand. I think that's minor, but I can accept that a reasonable man might disagree - about the edit being major or minor, that is. Tom Harrison 13:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Whenever an admin uses the rollback feature, the edit is always marked automatically as minor. I would have rolled back the edit myself.--MONGO 15:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. I thought it would be something automated like that. I'd say rollback ought only to be used for clear vandalism, what do you think? --Guinnog 22:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Many people do say that. I'm not sure I agree, but I understand that puts me in a minority. Tom Harrison 22:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda

Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda is a really comprehensive article and I agree with your comment there. I know Ron Cram and Commodore Sloat have put a lot of work into the article and I hope they work to split it up. It simply is too big, as we both observed, to simply jump and and start...this is true with the discussion pages as well, which I just archived some. Anyway, thanks for helping out.--MONGO 20:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It is a remarkable piece of work. I wouldn't want any of the content to be lost, but some sub-pages would probably help. I don't know how much time I'll be able to devote to it, but I think it has good prospects to develop into a solid article. Tom Harrison 20:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am still there trying and anything you have to add is appreciated. I am not going to do much editing there unless it is by agreement from the two major contibutors.--MONGO 10:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

New World Order (conspiracy)

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Tom Harrison Talk 20:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Look Mr Harrison it would not be necessary for me to persist if it were not for your deleting of my contribution in the first place. I deleted a few lines from some absolute rubbish of the most prejudiced kind to replace it with a proper introduction to the subject without all the psychotic/religious overtones of the introduction that you seem to be protecting. It’s a blatant abuse of your power as an administrator I’m surprised they let you continue. It really does not say much for the organisation which purports to host an encyclopaedia built on the contributions of the public if you act is such a fascist way. I'm learning all of you people’s tricks fast as I have been getting the censorship treatment on more than one occasion. How do you justify this sort of thing?

I will say one thing; it has turned me from someone with an initially positive attitude in making some contributions to someone who is now very pissed off. This does not serve you well and means that you might as well be writing a little red communist book rather than free knowledge. Many others I have spoken to on forums have had similar experiences on this site and feel the same way as I do.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.68.142.23 (talk • contribs) .

User:Giovanni33

What is your evidence that this user is running rather a lot of socks?Geni 13:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I reported him for 3RR, not for puppeteering, though he has certainly used socks in the past. Most recently User:Professor33 was discussed on ANI. If you want to know about Giovanni33's socks, User:Musical Linguist is the one to ask. Tom Harrison 13:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No, she is not the one to ask for a neutral, unbiased, account--just the opposite. That is like going to Strom Thurmond to learn about Kennedy. Good advise there, Tom.Giovanni33 14:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for your intervention on Conan the Barbarian article

Hello Tom,

I saw you posted in the Conan the Barbarian Talk Page and also noticed in your Wiki profile that you are part of the RC Patrol monitoring harmful editing. As I am not familiar with Misplaced Pages, I decided to request your help with an ongoing dispute that is destroying an article. There are currently two users, an anonymous IP user (201.243.153.168) / (200.109.64.163), and a seemingly White Supremacist (205.188.116.197) who are tearing apart the Conan the Barbarian article through editing and arguing. The anonymous IP user is constantly vandalizing the article in response to the White Supremacist injecting Aryan references. Their vandalism and in-jokes are seeping into the article despite the reverts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Conan_the_Barbarian&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Conan_the_Barbarian&diff=62457552&oldid=62457459

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Conan_the_Barbarian&diff=62546807&oldid=62462189

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Conan_the_Barbarian&diff=62720702&oldid=62700715

-- Flask 20:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep an eye on it. Tom Harrison 20:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

From an incorrigible revert warrior

Hi, Tom. I don't normally revert you but I was puzzled to see you rolling back AntiVandalBot, so I looked at the diff to see what error he had made (sometimes bots do weird things), and it seemed that a user had removed the whole case and replaced it with a "Get lost" message. I reverted you, and then restored his "Get lost". I don't know anything about the background, though, and I just assumed that you hit rollback too hastily, or that you were trying to roll back the blanking of the page, and something went wrong. If you did intend that edit, since you may know the background, please go ahead and re-inistate it. I won't interfere again!

P.S. As I pressed "preview", I saw you had posted on my page, so our messages crossed. But the above was what I was going to say to you. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 22:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane Talk Page

As you might already know (if you watch football/soccer), Italy won the World Cup against the French. Zidane was notable in the game since it was his last game and he went out with a red card after head butting an Italian player. Because this has caught so much attention, natually the talk page of his article is getting alot of attention from new users. Unfortunately the IPs seem unable to understand that talk pages are not forums. I think semi-protection might be necessary to at least stop the page from being filled up with these kinds of edits. The article itself has already been semi-protected due to a large amount of recent vandalism from new users and IPs.--Jersey Devil 01:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Your editing of Refrigeration

Tom, I agree with the almost all of your editing of the Refrigeration article with one exception. You probably anticipated my disagreement with removing most of the vapour-compression refrigeration section and referring readers to the main article Vapor-compression refrigeration. I understand your viewpoint that it simplifies the Refrigeration article. However, in my own case, when reading an article, I very much dislike being told to "go elsewhere to get more details". Those readers savvy enough to search for Vapor-compression refrigeration will find the main article and get to read the details. But those readers not that savvy and who search for the more common usage term Refrigeration will not get to readily see all the details unless they are willing to be detoured to elsewhere. In my opinion, some redundancy in Misplaced Pages is warranted in order to make it easier for less savvy readers to find information. But after all, you are an administrator so I must abide by your perceptions ... besides I may want you to help me someday. :) - mbeychok 01:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

We should use summary style. With duplication comes the danger of having the versions drift out of sync. Still, I do see your point, and we are not short of space. I tend to favor fewer, longer pages myself.

I guess I don't mind having the information in there, as long as a non-specialist can read and get the gist of how an refrigerator works without having to worry about what "isentropically" means and why it's important. Maybe we could start the section with an abbreviated version of my already-short version, and then follow with what was there before for a more detailed treatment. A longer-term possibility is reorganizing and merging some of the articles in this area. So, feel free to add the material back in with whatever rewrites you think improve it. I'll look in and tweak it, and we can talk about any disagreements. I do not feel at all proprietary about the page.

"...you are an administrator so I must abide by your perceptions." heh heh; if only that were so. Tom Harrison 02:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I must admit that I kind of like the your shortened version of the non-thermodynamic section and I think I would prefer to pretty much leave it just as you edited it (other than renumbering Figure 2 as Figure 1 and moving that Figure upwards, which I have already done). Then I would follow your edited version by putting back in the section dealing with the thermodynamic cycle and the T_S diagram except that I will do my darndest to simplify/shorten it. In other words, the easiest part first followed by the more technical part. Thanks very much for your cooperation. - mbeychok 04:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I did partially revert your edits on the vapor-compression refrigeration section. I also re-wrote and re-arranged the material quite a bit. I did manage to shorten the section a bit; to put the physical component image ahead of the T-S diagram image; and to delete some of the thermodynamic terminology. However, I could not manage to retain your simplified version and still remain faithful to the integrity of the T-S diagram analysis. The only way I could do that would be to have a lot of duplicated wording which would end up lengthening the article rather than shortening it. - mbeychok 07:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem; I thought later that refrigerator and air conditioner might be the place for the simplified description of the process. Tom Harrison 13:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I think both refrigerator and air conditioner are good choices for your simplified description. As for the description currently in air conditioner:

• I very much dislike using the term "heat pump". Technically, that is correct. But most non-technical people think of a heat pump as being used to heat a building during the winter, so why confuse them with that term?
• The paragraph about the ideal gas law is completely out of context and serves no purpose in that article.
• The system image (Heatpump.svg) is "pretty" but it really doesn't depict the system components as well as the image in vapor-compression refrigeration around which you built your description.
• As a whole, the current description in air conditioner, in my opinion, isn't worth a hill of beans.

Regards, - mbeychok 16:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attacks

Please observe wikipedia's policy on personal attacks. Also, please refrain from wikilayering. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikilawyering

In addition, the comment made on Bubba73 is justified. Anybody who compares the Apollo moon missions with a trip to Disneyland is IN FACT, being illogical. Please refrain from vandalizing my talk page or else you will be reported.Noodle boy 17:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

His excellency (talk · contribs) ArbComm case filed.

You may want to somment there.

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#His_excellency_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29. Pecher 20:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm following the case. I'll provide information to the arbcom if they need me to. My understanding is that these statements are just to urge them to accept or reject the case. I think they have all the information they need to decide that. Tom Harrison 21:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You are biased!

You are very biased when it comes to the subject of Islam. I have seen you edits/comments and activity. You are in no way a good and impartial administrator. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anas hashmi (talk • contribs) 20:37, 11 July 2006.

Well, you must be very biased if Anas hashmi comes back after a seven-month wiki-break to tell you that! I won't comment on your edits about Islam, as I haven't seen them, but I've never seen you to be anything but a good and impartial administrator. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 21:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; It is kind of hard to respond to such a general charge. Am I biased in favor of Islam, or against it? If Anas hashmi would like to talk about a specific edit, he can tell me his concerns. Or, let him change whatever I wrote that he finds biased. If I disagree we can talk about it on the article's talk page. Tom Harrison 00:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

User:SirIsaacBrock looks to be back

Hello Tom, as you were the admin that gave the 1 week block to User:SirIsaacBrock which deteriorated into the indefinite blocking of that editor I thought you should be aware of this WP:ANI report that covers the very real likelyhood of User:Porky Pig being a sockpuppet of that user. Take it easy. (→Netscott) 22:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Editing other people's talk

It is usually inappropriate to edit someone else's talk page comment. Was the link unneeded? Probably. Did IZAK have a write to link this in a talk page comment? Certainly. - Jmabel | Talk 05:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Banter had been a protected deleted page. While clearing out the backlog in protected deleted pages, I de-linked all occurences of banter. Is that not the right thing to do? Tom Harrison 12:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Please join discussion at Cooling tower

Tom, someone named Edreher has suggested changes on the Talk:Cooling tower page which I fear will degrade that article and lead to much confusion. I have made a counter-suggestion that his ideas would fit better into the Air conditioning article. Please join the discussion there and let us have your advice. Thanks in advance. - mbeychok 15:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

User:SirIsaacBrock

Hello Tom,

I notice you still carry the Islamic Barnstar. I find your badge of honour quite fascinating :) SirIsaacBrock 16:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

State-sponsored terrorism redirect to State terrorism

Greetings Tom, knowing that you cover such topics fairly keenly. Would you kindly take a look at an anon editor's rather disruptive efforts to redirect one to the other? Thanks. (→Netscott) 19:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather not edit war over this. Thanks. (→Netscott) 19:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Your assistance has been appreciated. Thanks Tom. (→Netscott) 20:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome; I'm glad I could help. Tom Harrison 20:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

for the help against an especially active vandal, Bridgeman/ Tojo. --Dan 18:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome; I'm glad I could help. Tom Harrison 18:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Just blocked another Tojo sock. BTW, is it really necessary to protect a talk page from anons and newbies? They get much less exposure to public. -- Chris 73 | Talk 12:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I have it full-protected for an hour or so while I refactor. After that it may not be neccessary. Tom Harrison 12:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see. Thanks -- Chris 73 | Talk 12:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you - I had the misfortune to come under User:General Tojo's special attention with a spat of sockpuppet attacks and wikistalking revertion of all my recent edits - so thanks for the revertions/roll-back. David Ruben 18:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Glad to help, Tom Harrison 18:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thelema

Funny, you beat me to the rv by mere seconds. :-) (→Netscott) 22:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Please use your admin powers more responsibly

You rejected a 3 revert complaint and a request to unblock without any explanation. In my eyes, JzG clearly violated the 3 revert rule, even twice, and he blocked me for "pushing POV" while he removed well sourced information about allegations of Lance Armstrong's drug abuse. I had not violated 3RR, I had not invented any of the information I added but took them as well as the sources from other wikipedia articles, I tried to discuss the issue at the article talk page while JzG just made unsubstantiated and unspecific allegations at my talk page in spite of my repeated request to discuss it where appropriate, and I think that any editor who makes a complaint that is not obviously done in bad faith should get an explanation if the complaint is rejected. Just removing unblock requests and rejecting 3RR complaints leaves a bitter taste to other editors who feel as if at wikipedia some were more equal than others. Please think about this. Socafan 22:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I included an explanation. I'll repeat it here:

Misplaced Pages:Three-revert rule#Reverting potentially libellous material - "The three-revert rule does not apply to users making a good-faith effort to enforce this provision, whether they are involved in editing the articles themselves or not."

As for your unblock request, given the discussion on your page at the time I thought, and continue to think, that "reviewed and denied" was an appropriate reply. Tom Harrison 23:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Reviewed and denied" is no explanation, and as a user requesting to get unblocked obviously does not trust the admin who blocked backing the latter without further explanation causes bad feelings. You should not do that. Copying well known statements by third parties from other wikipedia articles in no way is libellous, and pretending that it is to evade the 3 revert rule cannot be tolerated. Also note that the first three reverts were done without any explanation and the admin who was in a conflict of interest when blocking continues to evade discussion at the article talk page and even took advantage of my block to delete a POV tag in spite of an obviously ongoing dispute. Socafan 00:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't want to get blocked, don't violate 3RR. If you don't want your work reverted, don't add unsupported innuendo to the biographies of living people. You are welcome to comment here, but I don't see that we have much basis for further discussion. You can have the last word if you want it. Tom Harrison 01:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom would you kindly review the history of this article and my efforts to remove information that amounts to "guilt by association" despite User:Socafan's insistence that it remain in the article. Please respond accordingly. Thanks. (→Netscott) 02:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

There is an article talk page where this can be discussed appropriately. Socafan 02:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and Socafan has essentially replaced every single bit of information (in addition to the part that I've been removing) that JzG was attempting to discuss on the talk page (prior to it's reinstatement on the article). Socafan doesn't seem to be getting the message. (→Netscott) 02:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The best thing to do might be to revert back to this version and then protect the article and allow for some time for this matter to be discussed on the talk page. (→Netscott) 02:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

All of the information is sourced, there is no violation of whatever rule, and there is an article talk page to discuss it. Socafan 02:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, please be apprised that I've made an ANI report about this. Thanks. (→Netscott) 02:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

DOM Talk Page

Tom, I saw you reverted the DOM talk page due to Johnski's usual rants. It's not too surprising he is lurking around. I'd look for him to start messing with the article with in the next week or so. He's pretty predictable in term of his behavior. Anyway, thanks for catching that. Davidpdx 08:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Parkinson's disease protection

Please reinstate semi-protection on the article. GT is having a field day today. *sigh* By the way, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#General Tojo (talk • contribs) is still accepting submissions if you're interested. Thanks,  Netsnipe    13:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Libya

Please feel free to evaluate the Libya article which has become a 'Featured Article Candidate' and write your support or opposition on Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates. Hopefully Libya will become only the second African country to be featured on Misplaced Pages. Thanks --User:Jaw101ie 12:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Advice on links to pirate sites

Tom, could I ask you for some advice?

I contribute to a page, Bhagavata purana, where a user has put up links to two sites (his own) that heavily bootleg copyrighted material. (Each site profusely displays copyrighted artwork and reproduces over 17,000 copyrighted translations of Sanskrit verse.)

In accordance with Misplaced Pages policy (in Misplaced Pages:Copyrights, Section 4.3, "Linking to copyrighted works"), I deleted the links.

This led to a revert war. I invited the user to talk. After an extended discussion on the Talk page, what we wound up with was, in essence:

• Okay, the stuff is copyrighted.

• No, I don't have the copyright holder's permission.

• But I have transcendent, "spiritual" reasons why the laws, in this case, don't apply.

I don't see any point in another round of reverts. Could you suggest how I could best proceed?

Many thanks!

Cordially, O Govinda 17:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Which sites are they? Srimadbhagavatam.org and bhagavata.net? Tom Harrison 17:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Bhagavata.net and Bhagavata.org. Srimadbhagavatam.org is okay; it's licensed by the copyright holder.

For Bhagavata.org, pressing the "Enter" button at the bottom of the pages brings you to a contents page with the legend

Black texts: the narrative by Anand Aadhar.

Brown text: the original translation of Swami Prabhupâda and other pupils.

The "Brown text" and the pictures are what's swiped. (You have to go a couple of levels deeper--to the "Chapter" level--to get to them.)

Bhagavata.net (the Dutch version) is structured nearly the same way. On the home page you click on the lotus next to "De Bhâgavata Purâna." Then, on the next page, the "Kom Binnen" button at the bottom brings you to the matching Dutch version of what's on Bhagavata.org.

O Govinda 19:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I see the text you describe. How can you tell which is legitimately licensed and which is the copyright violation? http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/ looks like it's the same as http://bhagavata.org/. I'm sorry to have so many questions. Tom Harrison 20:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this the copyrighted text? ISBN 0892132507 I can search this online at Amazon, so if you could give me a specific, extended passage that is derectly copied, that would be helpful. Tom Harrison 20:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The questions are all welcome.

First, yes, you're right: Those two URL's -- http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/ and http://bhagavata.org/ -- point to the identical site. (I was confused. My apologies. The licensed site is http://srimadbhagavatam.COM/, to which the Misplaced Pages article also, happily, has a link.)

So the two offending sites are http://srimadbhagavatam.org/ and http://bhagavata.net/index.eng.html/.

Yes, you have the right ISBN number for the copyrighted text.
On Amazon it's here: ISBN 0892132507

The infringer hasn't quoted any one portion at length. Instead, here's what he has done. At the bottom of each page, he has a section called "Source texts." There he gives his own translation for each Sanskrit verse, followed by the copyrighted translation. And so, he argues, it's all "fair use" because he doesn't "quote at length." But, in all, he quotes the copyrighted translations for 17,000 verses (yes, literally 17,000), one after another.

To compare the text on his site to the text in the section online at Amazon:

• On the page on Amazon, go to "Search inside this book." (Or, read ahead, I'll give you an easier way.)
• Go to "Excerpt."
• Go to Page 3.
• Go to his site at http://www.bhagavata.org/canto8/chapter1.html. Look at "Source texts" (about a quarter of the way down the page). Under "Text 1" see the smaller, roman, indented text. Notice that it matches the "Text 1" in the Amazon sample.
• Similarly, compare Text 2, Text 3, and so on. He's got them all on his site, verbatim.

• The easier way:
• At http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/1/en --the licensed site -- you can see all those same texts in one place and compare them to the ones on the unlicensed site. They match word for word.

Also, starting at www.bhagavata.org/gita/contents.html, the infringing site copies the same way from Bhagavad-gita As It Is (700 verses) (ISBN: 0892131233). And there he copies not only the copyrighted translations but also the copyrighted "word-for-word" meanings.

As for pictures:

At that same Amazon link I mentioned before -- here -- you'll see a front cover.
The cover picture appears on his site at www.bhagavata.org/canto4/chapter15.html.

Click on the cover on the Amazon site, and you'll see another cover, from the the "Eighth Canto."
The picture appears on his site at www.bhagavata.org/canto8/chapter18.html.

While viewing the "Eighth Canto" cover on the Amazon site, click "back cover" (on the left).
On his site that picture appears at www.bhagavata.org/canto8/chapter7.html.

At Amazon -- here -- there's another volume in the set.
On his site the cover picture appears at www.bhagavata.org/canto3/chapter25.html.

And so on. Virtually all the artwork displayed on his site is copyrighted and used without permission.

I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please just let me know.

Thanks again. -- O Govinda 23:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see, and you are right. Per Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works, we should not link to those sites. Tom Harrison 01:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom, thank you very much for your help. -- O Govinda 21:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Your thorough documentation made it easier. Tom Harrison 21:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Lance Armstrong

Hi - I'm busily trying to defuse an edit war on this article. Could you perhaps not revert the article without discussion, as that makes it harder to defuse? Phil Sandifer 18:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand; My comment is on the talk page. Tom Harrison 18:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Your removal of the POV tag in spite of an ongoing content dispute

This is incivil. Please do not do it again. Plus, reverting without any discussion to a "balanced version" that lacks much well sourced information in no way helps to resolve the conflict. Socafan 19:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

My comment is on the talk page, right here. I don't see how removing {{protected}} from an article that is not protected has anything to do with civility one way or the other. Where is this POV tag you speak of? Tom Harrison 20:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

A Question

Hello Tom,

Hope you are well and doing fine. Tom, Do you know if one can insert copyrighted material in talk pages of articles? Thanks --Aminz 22:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Aminz, I'm glad to see you editing. I don't think we can post copyrighted material anywhere, except short quotes with attribution. I'm no expert, but I think fair use only applies to articles, not to user or talk pages. I can't say I've never done it to illustrate a point in contention, but I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to. You might ask at Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. Tom Harrison 23:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom. I found a couple of articles from Encyclopedia of Islam and inserted them here and here . I personally don't have enough time to go through them carefully and thought it might be useful if I can post them on the talk pages. I'll ask Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. Thanks again. --Aminz 23:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I see those - I'm afraid that's far too much to be construed as fair use. Ask on Copyrights, but I'm sure those will have to go. Tom Harrison 23:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are far too much. --Aminz 23:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks like advertsing to me

Tom, take a look at Special:Contributions/84.45.141.156. It looks like advertising for an appliance repair shop to me. Do you agree? - mbeychok 14:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes; In cases like that, feel free to warn and revert. Tom Harrison 14:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Although if there are more than a half dozen, don't waste your time on it. I have some automated tools that make it less tedious for me. Tom Harrison 14:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

can't cite, can't say

Hi Tom, I was glad to see your "can't cite, can't say" comment on an edit summary recently... this basic Misplaced Pages principle seems lost on many editors these days. I'm trying to keep unsourced claims off of several articles such as List of HIV-positive people, List of red-light districts, Chuck Cunningham Syndrome and The Frosties Kid, which has especially been beset by kids who don't understand what constitutes original research. Would appreciate it if you took a look. wikipediatrix 15:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If you get the chance...

I am awfully sorry to worry you. As part of the ongoing saga with the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (where you blocked Asmodeus for ongoing attacks on users), there has been a bit of a situation. I gave Tim Smith a warning for 3RR, but he then retaliated by giving myself, ScienceApologist, and Jefffire similar warnings, even though by my count none of us had even approached this number of reverts. A quick glance at the edit history of the article should make this clear. Can I removed this warning, as it seems to really just be a spurious retaliation? Thanks for your advice. Byrgenwulf 17:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)