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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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Robert Kagan

Robert Kagan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Wixifixer, who is the subject of the article, is attempting to remove ethnicity information from this page. I've had conflicts with him in the past and would rather defer the case to other administrators. Owen (talk) 19:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Labelling people as Jewish etc. falls into the topic of WP:BLPCAT where unless the person self-identifies as Jewish, we do not do so. Collect (talk) 19:35, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the page in question, self-identification seems to be required for religion, but not for ethnicity. Or is this guideline given elsewhere? Owen (talk) 20:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the Robert Kagan article, the disputed statement was entirely unsourced. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Tell ya what - look at the prior discussions about "Jewish" on all the noticeboards - and note that categorizing a person as "Jewish" invariably is viewed as contentious where no self-identification is made. Trying to assert that "Jewish" merely is an ethnicity has not flown here before, and is unlikely to fly now. Collect (talk) 20:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Support per Collect's argument - labeling persons without self-identification or other high quality sources is not acceptable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Glad to see this is already here. Article has no sources regarding Kagan being Jewish; no mention of being Jewish at all. Agree with Collect. Must be removed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think Jewishness, in the final analysis, is irrelevant to this discussion. What we are discussing is whether or not unsourced material should be removed from a WP:BLP. As we read at WP:V: "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Please remove contentious material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced immediately." I disagree with those who might say that this material is "contentious". It is merely unsourced. Bus stop (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Prior discussions all reached a different conclusion than that, however. Collect (talk) 13:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Any time the subject of an article indicates in good faith that they do not wish to be labelled with a given ethnicity, we should respect that. It's a matter of courtesy and logic before we even get round to considering WP policy. Same goes for religion and sexual orientation. (Caveat: I have no idea if Wikifixer actually is the article subject in this case, and I have done nothing to check). Formerip (talk) 23:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Cannot somebody stop the Jew-labeling, about which the subject has complained since 2008 with more patience than anybody should expect. is a 19:28, 29 January 2015 (UTC) Also, an editor currently appealing sanctions for repeatedly removing Jews from a list of indigenous peoples has plastered the talk page with his thoughts about the Kagan and alleged relations to "the Israeli lobby", alleged "double loyalty" (Israel and US), etc. Shouldn't such BLP violations be removed immediately? is a 20:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

To benchmark the high standards for categorizing by religion, consider George Benson and whether or not he should be categorized as a Jehovah's Witness. He is not because we have yet no statement by him stating that he is a Jehovah's Witness---although we have statements praising the name of Jehovah and stating that he donates money to Watchtower Society, etc. is a 23:39, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Is a:Jewishness is irrelevant to this discussion. There are "no reliable, published sources" that might support an assertion that Robert Kagan is Jewish. We tend not to publish "original research". It is frowned upon. Bus stop (talk) 13:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@Bus stop: There are sources, this one by one of his neocon cohorts.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The article again had problems with misrepresentation of sources, which were reliable but rather mediocre quality---a short book review/notice in Foreign Affairs and a profile in The Guardian. Nonetheless, these sources state that he is often called "neoconservative" but that he prefers to call himself "liberal and progressive". His books are concerned with liberal civilization and use a realistic perspective, rather than "neoconservative theology", in the words of Foreign Affairs. Accordingly, I have classified him as a political realist and as an American social-liberal. The liberal category has 2 subcategories, classical and social: There seems to be no evidence that he is a classical liberal; in American politics, a progressive (liberal) is a social liberal. is a 10:42, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

That is WP:SYNTH. Stick to the sources, which by and large demonstrate that the mainstream reportage of Kagan characterizes him as a neoconservative.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 05:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

SYNTH refers to edits made in articles (Misplaced Pages articles must not contain original research) - not to comments on noticeboards. So far you seem hell-benthighly interested on labelling Kagan as neoconservative when your sources should only be used for opinions cited as opinions - which I believe I have stated a number of times in a number of places about a number of people of all political persuasions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The statement addresses adding/deleting of categories to the article that are outside of the scope of this thread. The basis for that was WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, apparently.

The "hell-bent" comment is out of line, because the issue related to how to characterize Kagan had been somewhat stable until recently, with the statements being attributed (as opinion) only under the "Ideas and Career" section of the article. It was not me that started deleting sourced material and adding/deleting categories without support in RS.

Though the sources are strong enough and plentiful enough to characterize him as a neoconservative, that was a compromise based on his shunning of the label. WP:PUBLICFIGURE is clear that it doesn't matter if he doesn't like the label as long as RS apply it to him, however.

The categorizations are unsupported and need to be restored to their previous status.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 16:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

OR and SYNTH apply only to articles, not to noticeboards or discussion pages of any ilk. "Highly interested" seems fair as you, indeed, added Frederick Kagan to the List of Neoconservatives, and reverted removal of the other names. , , . Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

You left out the part that Robert Kagan was removed along with Victoria Nuland. When I searched for more sources, I found two one for Frederick as well. And one of the sources is a recent scholarly source published by an academic press, and pertains to both Robert and Frederick, as mentioned in a thread below. I am of the opinion that all three individuals are described as neoconservatives in RS in a manner compliant with Misplaced Pages policy, as Mr.X has indicated as well.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 17:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

And the others agree that opinions must be cited as opinions. I fear you missed that part. Also look at your "sources" for categorizing a person: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/ Neocons and the Ukraine Coup, Robert Parry,February 23, 2014 - self-published by the only employee of a non-profit. And opinion piece to boot. Your "source" for Nuland is http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4f13052-18ca-11e4-80da-00144feabdc0.html She is married to Robert Kagan, author of Americans are from Mars, Europeans from Venus and one of the most prominent neoconservative intellectuals – even if he now shuns the label.. and you use it as a source to call her "neoconservative! Sorry - this is getting very old very fast. Collect (talk) 17:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Jacob Heilbrunn's They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons (2009), published by the very reputable firm Anchor books, a division of Knopf, Doubleday, has 25 references to Robert Kagan as a leading neocon. In addition, in 2014 Heilbrunn wrote articles for the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html and Politico http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-neocon-surge-108021_Page2.html about the neoconservative phenomenon, featuring Robert Kagan front and center, accompanied by large photographs of same. So attempts to disassociate Kagan from the phenomenon he founded seem somewhat ludicrous, not to say futile, to put it kindly. Misplaced Pages should not be in the business of distorting the historical record. Leave that to the publicists and other interested parties. 108.54.227.81 (talk) 08:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

|}

There are ongoing discussions at several boards (look below) and articles, for which this discussion is useful here. is a 12:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Dread Pirate Roberts (Silk Road) and Ross William Ulbricht

Silk Road (marketplace) is a Tor-based online marketplace known as a place for illegal exchanges (drugs and such). It was operated, at least for some period of time, by someone who went by the name Dread Pirate Roberts. Ross William Ulbricht was arrested and charged with being Dread Pirate Roberts. But he has not been found guilty.

A few minutes ago Ross William Ulbricht had his own article. It's a WP:CRIME notability issue, first of all, but a whole lot more importantly it seems like a crystal clear example of WP:BLPCRIME. In the past it has been redirected to either the Dread Pirate Roberts article or to Silk Road. I've restored the Silk Road redirect.

The Dread Pirate Roberts article, I noticed, likewise is predominantly about Ulbricht, whose name appears in most of the sentences throughout. I've redirected that one to Silk Road as well. (Notability for this one is more debatable, though I would say that even if DPR were found to be the subject of sufficient reliable sources beyond those about Silk Road, it would still make sense to incorporate it into the Silk Road article as there just wouldn't be enough WP:BLP-friendly material to construct an encyclopedia article without turning that article into an article about Silk Road).

But I digress. The real issue isn't notability, and that's why I'm posting here.

I see this has come up a few times before here, the first two without conclusion and the third apparently also resulting in a redirect. Bringing it up because my redirects were initially both reverted, and given the relative popularity of the subject and the articles' histories, I imagine they will be again, so I'd like to get others involved. I've also requested page protection for both. --— Rhododendrites \\ 00:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

PS: I have not addressed, and would suggest discussion of, the coverage of Ulbricht in the Silk Road (marketplace) article. --— Rhododendrites \\ 00:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand your objects in regard to WP:CRIME. We should probably wait for the outcome of the trial to determine whether Ulbricht should have a stand-alone article on Misplaced Pages. If he is convicted, however, I think he should have his own article. This is a fascinating case, one that has been covered in major newspapers and news outlets. Ulbricht is a fascinating figure. He started out as an idealist, got involved in libertarian ideas, and (if his prosecutors are correct) crossed the line into facilitating the buying and selling of drugs and guns on the so-called dark internet. There's going to be a movie about him, you can bank on it. I don't mind holding off till the end of the trial, but after that, I'd like to see him have his own article. People will look for information about him. Chisme (talk) 01:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this. The Ulbricht and Roberts pages have been protected as redirects, but the Silk Road (marketplace) article still talks an awful lot about Ulbricht. Additional perspectives on how to handle this per WP:BLPCRIME are requested. --— Rhododendrites \\ 22:32, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's going to talk about Ulbricht. He's its founder, and if the prosecutors at this trial are correct, its guiding hand as well. I really don't understand this desire to remove Ulbricht from Misplaced Pages. I still think he deserves his own entry, but I'll defer to you unless he is convicted, at which case, I believe, he genuinely requires an entry. Chisme (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

It's true that he's admitted involvement, and for that we can include him, but let's try to find any rational way to reconcile WP:BLPCRIME with statements like Ulbricht faces charges of money laundering, computer hacking, conspiracy to traffic narcotics, and attempting to kill six people. Prosecutors allege that Ulbricht paid $730,000 to others to commit the murders, although none of the murders actually occurred. We're connecting him with paying for assassinations in our Misplaced Pages article despite not having been convicted. --— Rhododendrites \\ 00:38, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Ulbricht was convicted yesterday. I assume we can now restore his article on Misplaced Pages. Chisme (talk) 21:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, we can put BLPCRIME issues to rest, that's for sure. There's still WP:CRIME standing in the way of his own article unless he's notable for more than his role as Dread Pirate Roberts, but certainly no objections from me for however you think it's best to handle it at the Silk Road article. But these are notability concerns rather than BLP, so this thread could probably be closed. --— Rhododendrites \\ 00:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Neoconservativism - Victoria Nuland

I've found a reference to her in a book, so I will describe that reference before the news media pieces listed originally. I would imagine there are more, but hope that this suffices. The book is by Craig Unger, called The Fall of the House of Bush

As for Robert Kagan, his father, Donald, a Yale historian, and his brother, Frederick, a military historian at West Point and a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, are both highly visible neocon activists, and, in the Bush-Cheney administration, his neocon wife, Victoria Nuland, server as ambassador to Turkey and ambassador to NATO.

Do the following sources support characterizing Nuland as a neoconservative?
In the Financial Times piece, the notable author protects his government source and doesn't name the former colleague in the Obama administration state department quoted.

In an administration so eager to correct the perceived errors of its predecessor, it might be surprising that Ms Nuland has emerged as its point person for dealing with Russia. She was Mr Cheney’s deputy national security adviser before moving to be ambassador to Nato. She is married to Robert Kagan, author of Americans are from Mars, Europeans from Venus and one of the most prominent neoconservative intellectuals – even if he now shuns the label.

“I have no doubt that when she sits down for a family dinner, she is the biggest neocon at the table,” says a former colleague in the Obama administration state department. “But she is also one of the most talented people I have worked with in government.”US diplomat Victoria Nuland faces questions over strategyby Geoff Dyer

Here's another potential source Neocons and the Ukraine Coup by Robert Parry.

Both Dyer and Parry are notable, as demonstrated by their Misplaced Pages articles. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

En passant mentions about a person have generally not been allowed for making claims about that living person. You need sources specifically addressing the person and not use of a single adjective in a single sentence. Also claims based on an anonymous source are problematic, and in this case it appears to be an opinion which must be cited as an opinion. You might get away with:

An anonymous person in the Obama administration said he thinks she is a "neocon".

but not more than that from the sources you give. Collect (talk) 12:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, what is your opinion of statement in the Unger source?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Unger gives an en passant mention - "his neocon wife" is insufficient to label the living person as a "neocon" as he says basically nothing about her. Collect (talk) 15:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

"En passant"... Isn't that a move in the game of chess? What does that mean in English? And where is the relevant policy?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Where a sentence in a book is the only sentence the book mentions a person, and the mention is only an adjective before the person's name without saying anything else about that person, the mention isn't worth a tinker's dam.,,,, etc. Collect (talk) 19:16, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The website of the Brookings Institution at which Kagan is a fellow has this to say:

POLITICO Magazine released a list of the top 50 influential people in Washington, D.C., including Brookings Senior Fellow Robert Kagan and Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland, described as "the ultimate American power couple."

The article goes on to say that Nuland supports her husband's tough policies.

Nuland, overseeing European and Eurasian Affairs at the State Department, has been a strong advocate of the engaged approach her husband favors as a crisis with Russia has unfolded on her diplomatic turf this year. The point was made, rather sensationally, in February, when a leaked audio recording of her F-bomb-laden diatribe about the fecklessness of the European Union, which she accused of not exactly playing a constructive role trying to end the growing conflict in Ukraine, appeared on the Internet.

108.54.227.81 (talk) 06:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

You have shown that one source listed them as a power couple. Your other source says that she advocates for his general policies. is a 06:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Jack Galloway

Jack Galloway (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) On the website www.statemaster.com the wikipedia biography of jack galloway has some added content,it is encyclopedia Jack Galloway the added content is of a rude nature ,please try and rectify this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.135.125.217 (talk) 14:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much that Misplaced Pages can do with how other sites use the information from here. You should contact that website to fix it. --‖ Ebyabe - Welfare State ‖ 18:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Robert Sears (physician)

Robert Sears (physician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article is about an alternative medicine doctor. Much of the content appears one sided and lacking neutrality. I've removed two instances of what I believe to be rather blatant BLP violations: 1, 2. Additionally, it appears that the subject himself has created an account, DrBobSears (talk · contribs), and has attempted to remove large portions of the article calling it an one-sided agenda. Will someone please prune this article and add it to their watchlist? Thank you, Tiptoety 03:57, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Whatchlisted. - Cwobeel (talk) 05:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The content in the lead was quotes from sources which were in the body. Sears is extremely notable because of his controversial POV. He was even involved in a previous epidemic (his patient was the index patient in an epidemic!), and his recommendations are influential in causing a very low rate of herd immunity in Orange County, where the Disneyland measles epidemic centers. That epidemic is now ravaging the country, and politicians, including Obama, are now getting involved. This has never happened before, and the criticisms of Sears are raining down, including from the press in other countries. My Google Alerts reports for him are myriad. I'm using only a fraction of what's being written. He's a fringe doctor known for his controversial views. Now they are getting strongly negative attention because they are dangerous, and we're documenting a fraction of it. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is WP:Undue, his notability is ONLY from his alternative medicine views. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Tiptoety that this article is written in a manner that violates BLP policy. And it is being used as a coatrack to highlight the negative impact of the anti-vaccine movement. Thee is huge undue weight with that way it is written now. Even if we don't agree with their point of view or actions, every living person get a well written article that follows NPOV policy. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 17:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the current article appears to be being used as a coatrack to highlight negative impact of anti-vaccine movement. Sears' tolerance of alternate vaccine schedules does not even seem to be be accurately represented and it's also not the only thing notable about him, yet it's basically the entire article. Sears is also known as a proponent of breastfeeding and attachment parenting. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

It is UNDUE only because additional material is needed to cover other aspects. But we can't and shouldn't remove material that is well referenced. I will tag accordingly.- Cwobeel (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, part of the problem is the lack of coverage of the other work that he's done. But some of the content I removed from the article was not biographical content about him. Other than the that the wording needs to be adjusted to read more neutrally. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 22:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Are the sources in that BLP sufficient to label and categorize him as an "anti-vaccination activist"? I find that since his book is not "anti-vaccine" in itself, that labelling him as an "activist" when reliable sources appear to make that as a claim of fact may be violative of WP:BLP. His positions on some vaccines may be controversial, but that is a bit of a leap to "anti-vaccination activist" in Misplaced Pages's voice IMO. Collect (talk) 12:41, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

My attempt to re-write the article to give a more balanced view of his life work has be reverted or re-written to the point that it is again close to an attack page and a coatrack. There is rapid reverting going on when anyone attempts to remove very one sided content. I'm going to remind the editors that the page is under two kinds of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. And that they need to carefully adhere to good editing practices and BLP policy. So I would appreciate it other administrators would check in since I'm now involved and also don't have loads of time to oversee the article talk page. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yitang Zhang

This very low-key mathematician has received some prominent real-world attention, and some IPs and SPAs, possible sockpuppets, have shown up in the past few days aggressively removing sourced negative comments about a certain 3rd party, and are refusing to use Talk and the like. Experienced eyes would be welcome. Choor monster (talk) 15:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, as I have been doing some work on Yitang outside of Misplaced Pages today—I had not heard of him prior to this, so the timing is convenient. I will add this page to my Watchlist and review it shortly. Regards,--Soulparadox (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

As a followup, let me mention that two new SPAs have shown up, just as aggressive, and one of them has taken to editing and deleting other people's Talk page comments. Choor monster (talk) 14:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate controversy

The article contains the name of a person who has been accused of what could be a crime, or a tort in civil court. The particular sentence is 'Shortly after the Steam release of Depression Quest in August 2014, Quinn's former boyfriend (name omitted here) wrote a blog post, described by The New York Times as a "rambling online essay", alleging, among other things, that Quinn had an affair with Kotaku journalist Nathan Grayson." There are other references to that person in the article as well. I removed the person's name, but it was quickly restored by another editor. Use of this name might subject the Wikimedia Foundation to a libel action, and even it doesn't it is a violation of WP:BLP. There is some discussion of this problem on the articles's talk page under "Suggested Re-Adding of the Ex-Boyfriend's Name." GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you name what crime you think this is an accusation of? I don't see anything in our BLP guidelines against non-crime torts. Given the vast array of things over which people have been sued, not listing a potential tort would practically bar us from saying anything about a living person. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:25, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict) I am the editor who began the discussion on the talk page, and who reverted GeorgeLouis' removal after apparent agreement. On making the revert, I offered to self-revert if asked; that offer still stands if others think it is appropriate. That being said, I am very interested to hear other thoughts on this issue, now that it has been posted to this noticeboard. AtomsOrSystems (talk) 23:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

If this has been reported by the New York Times, I doubt very highly that any other source would be guilty for reporting the same thing. Surely, the New York Times' lawyers have looked into this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think his name being in the article was either a libel or a blp issue. He's named in the Washington Post article linked in to that paragraph, and the events described are the same in the wikipedia entry as it is in the post. KoshVorlon Je Suis Charlie 16:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

His post started this controversy and he's named in multiple WP:RS's. I don't think it's libel or BLP. Origamite 21:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

It's already a matter of public record and unless the veracity of that summarization of events is somehow being contended I'm unsure what part of BLP this runs afoul of; it's certainly not libel, which is a specific term in this context far more narrow than "reflects poorly on". GraniteSand (talk) 22:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Carmel Moore

• Carmel Moore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I trimmed this article down today, removing unreliable sources (including the sourcing of the subject's birth name to IMDb, no less), but my edits have been reverted with the familiar "that's OK, I know I can override BLP and OR because I put effort into this article" argument. I am honestly finding it hard to care about the bio of a retired pornstar at this point (as I do of fringe topics, barely known rappers and reality TV shows), and I'm afraid I'll overreact and use a button I shouldn't. So here it is, if someone feels they can take it on, that would be great. I'm taking it off my watchlist. §FreeRangeFrog 23:17, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have given it a shot.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:41, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@Crystallizedcarbon: Thank you. §FreeRangeFrog 22:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• I also recently took a shot at (maybe less drastically?) editing the article in question here and engaging on the article's talk page, but it doesn't seem to be having the desired effect. Some more help might be needed. Guy1890 (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Middle name of Sophie Hunter

Sophie Hunter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello there! I just want to ask a favor. You see, the middle name of Sophie Hunter in her page has been removed without explanation even with proper sources. Her full name is SOPHIE IRENE HUNTER and this reflects on her engagement announcement referring to her as S.I. Hunter as seen here.

It is also in the Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition It's not available online (under subscription).

• Screen capture here (I have double-checked this in the library (it's a big book), and her middle name is indeed "Irene")

Further proof online:

• From Find My Past (under subscription)

Screen capture here

• From Genes Reunited (under subscription)

Screen capture here

Can you please be so kind to amend her page for her middle name to be included. Burke's book has been used as a reliable reference in Misplaced Pages regarding peerage, ancestry and those in the aristocracy. Thank you very much!80.109.107.210 (talk) 05:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• All these screen captures and weak sources and the value to the reader of this persons middle name seem close to worthless, her middle name is of no encyclopedic value at all. Govindaharihari (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • This is also most likely a sock asking editors and noticeboards to do their editing, they have an obsession with Benedict Cumberbatch and Sophie Hunter. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Connected_Device_Configuration

Connected Device Configuration (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In this article few links are belongs to Sun Microsystems old website link ( http://java.sun.com/products ). It is redirected global java page of Oracle website(http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index.html). It seems broken or removed the content or finding the expected content is not possible. please help wikipedia lovers to use proper link.

This page is for issues related to biographies of living people. You can post your request at talk:Connected Device Configuration. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Joe Klein

Joe Klein (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

May well be Jewish, but is nndb.com a reliable source for labelling and categorizing him as one? , are the edits at issue. Collect (talk) 12:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

No. It appears to be self-published and the bio cites Misplaced Pages as a source.- MrX 13:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

...and other sources are available: "Joe Klein, a centrist columnist for Time magazine (and himself Jewish)..."- MrX 13:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Listen, people can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they want. I just don't want to see policy makers who make decisions on the basis of whether American policy will benefit Israel or not. In some cases, you want to provide protection for Israel certainly, but you don't want to go to war with Iran. When Jennifer Rubin or Abe Foxman calls me antisemitic, they're wrong. I am anti-neoconservative. I think these people are following very perversely extremist policies and I really did believe that it was time for mainstream Jews to stand up and say, "They don't represent us, they don't represent Israel."

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 13:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Same problem: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danny-postel/israelpolitik-the-neocons_b_6585506.html now added to the http://www.nndb.com/people/408/000044276/ "source.

Is the HuffPo sentence:

Joe Klein, a centrist columnist for Time magazine (and himself Jewish) wrote that the neocons pushed for the invasion 'to make the world safe for Israel'.

Sufficient here to state in Misplaced Pages's voice that Klein is Jewish? If not - will someone tell the editor not to continuously and repeatedly re-add such claims into BLPs. Thanks. Collect (talk) 13:55, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. "Danny Postel is Associate Director of the Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Denver’s Josef Korbel School of International Studies". Jewish is not a pejorative term.- MrX 14:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Here is another potential source from Eric Lott, a Professor of English at the University of Virginia: "... Jewish Joe Klein's novelistic political interventions and aspersions."- MrX 14:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@MrX: I don't know whether the characterization belongs in the lead or whatnot as I don't work on BLPs very often, but it isn't even mentioned in the article despite the high-profile he's received in media coverage of the debate. I don't have time to sort out a text for the article.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe that it would be best to simply add it to the person infobox article if it is deemed relevant. My guess is that little more needs to be said about it unless there are a number of sources that discuss in some depth. That said: I'm not familiar with the subject, nor our article, so take my advice with a grain of NaCl.- MrX 14:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, I did that for now.

The story needs coverage, look at the list of sources posted in this thread from Talk.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: is not even remotely acceptable under WP:BLPCAT and I find the continued insistence to label a person a JEW in Misplaced Pages's voice without clear self-identification is distasteful. Collect (talk) 14:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPCAT:Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources. is Misplaced Pages policy. Collect (talk) 14:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. I modified my advice accordingly.- MrX 15:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)And you would appear to be obviously wrong on all counts about the sources and his self-identification not meeting BLPCAT, and MrX agrees that there are reliable sources for categorizing Klein as Jewish, and your denial of a "clear self-identification" is refuted by his "clear statement" made in a manner such as to be relevant to their public life or notability during the interview published in Atlantic. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@MrX: I see that you have now struck through your recommendation of "person infobox", could you explain why?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I was mistaken. The policy is pretty clear about self-identification and relevance being required for religious beliefs in categories, nav boxes and info boxes.- MrX 15:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks. It's probably better just to write the text up for the article.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, here is another quote from the Atlantic interview

JG: You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Time column, Swampland quotes

This piece, the underlined statement in particular, includes another candidate for "specific and non-ambiguous self-identification"

I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me. This is happening because I said something that is palpably true, but unspoken in polite society: There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who...Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country...I remain proud of my Jewish heritage, a strong supporter of Israel and a realist about the slim chance of finding some common ground with the Iranians. But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek.When Extremists Attack

Note that it is also quoted in the HP article linked to above On Joe Klein and the Jewish Neoconservatives. (Ubikwit unsigned)

An interesting parsing here -- what do others say -- is saying one has "Jewish heritage" the same as saying one is Jewish outright for purposes of "self-identification as 'Jewish'"? I think t might be usable for the category "American people of Jewish descent" but is that the same as "Jewish" as a statement of fact in Misplaced Pages's voice? And is his ancestry relevant to his notability - the second requirement of WP:BLPCAT? Collect (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

With regard to the "second requirement", I would say that the second quote from the Atlantic interview ("You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.") clearly indicates that he is notable because of his stance as a renowned Jewish columnist that has taken a high-profile public stand against powerful Jewish groups in the USA. There are many sources addressing the debate surrounding the controversy that specifically note the "Jewish" dimension to the controversy because Klein singled out the "Jewish neocons", which is even reiterated in the title of the above-linked HP piece.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 13:52, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that self-identification, combined with the other secondary sources would seem to be more than adequate to describe him a Jewish in an infobox or category. The obvious relevance is that Klein has commented frequently about Jewish Neoconservatives, Jewish extremists and so on. I think we can wrap this up now, no?- MrX 13:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed -- this statement together with the other sources meets the requirements of the policy. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, I've restored the infobox category of religious affiliation per this consensus, and added some text to the article. Please check it out, Joe Klein.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 07:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Nope. Klein does not say he follows the Jewish religion and the edits which do not have self-identification behind them are a direct violation of WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: only Collect, it seems, is disagreeing with this, while there are three editors who say it's okay. I don't want to get involved in editing the article, but if Collect continues to revert against the views of other editors here there are ways to get it dealt with. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow. I hate to say this but so far no one here has managed to redact WP:BLPCAT which is policy. I take it you feel three voices override policy? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Collect, have you done any research on this at all or do you think collaboration means just saying "nope"?

"Over 5000 years of history, we Jews have demonstrated a remarkable talent for survival, the promulgation of morality and justice, tolerance of others, terrible cuisine and an almost protozoan genius for subdividing ourselves."
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)

"Where I come from–the outer boroughs of New York City–Jews were known for, and entertained ourselves by, arguing about everything. Nothing was ever off the table.""
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)

This type of editing (or rather, reverting and obstructionist arguing) will likely land some parties in front of Arbcom or AE soon if it doesn't stop.- MrX 14:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow. Glad to hear from you again. Now what precisely is the relevance to Klein's notability here? Note that is also required by WP:BLPCAT. And what there states that his religion is "Jewish"? Collect (talk) 14:32, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

BTW, that Time quote might be sufficient for ethnicity but not for religion. It had not been givenbefore though - so thanks for raising it here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not aware that we require precise relevance as this is not a court of law. Were you planning to restore the categories that you removed? - MrX 15:20, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Category:Anti-vaccination activists

Looking here, most of the people in this category are not reliably sourced as "anti-vaccination activists" in reliable sources -- one person got in there for a single TV assignment as a correspondent , another in there for questioning the famous "swine flu vaccine" affair, etc. In short -- this category is riddled with bad entries, and all entries there should be vetted, as categories intrinsically make claims of fact in Misplaced Pages's voice that the people fall into that "contentious claim" area. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh and one is in there for questioning the use of smallpox vaccines (because of complications observed) in his articles in peer-reviewed journals after smallpox was basically defunct in Europe in the 1970s. Collect (talk) 13:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm concerned about this as well. In many, if not most instances, the people are not self identifying as anti-vaccine. And in some instances they are denying it. There is no official body that declares whether someone is pro- or ant- vaccine. It appears to be a label invented by people who are activists to disparage or discredit individuals who they disagree with. This seems to fall under investigative journalism that is sensational rather than encyclopedic. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 18:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that self-identification is necessary as being anti-vaccination activist/advocate/proponent is not a religious belief or sexual orientation. That said, your comments suggest that maybe this category should be discussed at WP:CfD.- MrX 19:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Those two categories were spelled out since there repeated discussions about them. But the same can holds true for other topics that are personal ideologies not formal groups that you join or well recognized occupations or hobbies. I agree that WP:Cfd makes sense. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:18, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

There certainly seems to be truth in the case that this category is being misused and several editors have been reinserting it on Robert Sears who supports vaccinations. Apparently "Anti-vaccination activists" applies to vaccination supporters who disagree with CDC vaccination scheduling. Certainly seems like an improper label without context. I find NeilN's comparison to holocaust deniers to be horrifying. NeilN then restored the contentious label during the talk page discussion. This is a BLP issue and I believe the tag should be removed given the additional and now separate BLPN issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

And here I starting to have some sympathy for you. First, I restored the cat after checking there was a good source supporting it on the talk page. Since then, more sources have been added and no one else supports your position. Now, as to the holocaust denier change. You wrote:

• "Sears own words and book advocate vaccines - thus he cannot and is not an "anti-vaccinationist". Those "reliable sources" you just labeled are opinions and historically we comply with the subject's stated stance on views regardless of what others say. This has been done for religion, politics, gender, and ideology."

I wrote:

• "That's incorrect. We have a plethora of Holocaust deniers who call themselves something else." Followed up by: "He can say he supports vaccinations, just like Holocaust deniers can say they support accurate historical viewpoints. However analysis of their actions and writings may come to a different conclusion."

Anyone with a modicum of common sense would see I was not comparing the two, but putting forth an example to refute your poor and incorrect assertion. Others have as well. So, please, take your outrage over something I never did elsewhere. --NeilN 00:11, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that it would be helpful to have a proper consensus building discussion (as in well defined parameters for weighing the opinions about policy) either at Cfd and/or a RFC on the article talk page. Right now there seems to be a rush to revert changes right away instead of working toward a true consensus that can stand the test of time. In my experience, most people can live with a decision, even if they disagree with it, if the points of view are examined and weighed and an impartial person closes the discussion. I will suggest this on the article talk page, too. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 00:34, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@FloNight: I don't see a CfD being a "consistent" option unless you are proposing to delete most analysis-based categories. --NeilN 01:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

An CfD was mentioned by someone earlier in this thread, and I don't see the point of having a discussion on the talk page if a CfD is happening. Xfd's are the best method to establish whether a item meets policy guidelines for existing on Misplaced Pages, so I can see the point of doing one. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 01:34, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a problem with analysis-based categories, so long as we aren't the ones doing the analysis. If we're doing the WP:OR to call someone an activist, then that's a problem. I don't know that the category needs go away, but it surely cannot have unsourced (as in sources that say what the category is labeling them as) entries. And, given that we're dealing with BLP here - they should be solid sources. --Tgeairn (talk) 01:37, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

There is no current CfD, so this is the only discussion venue right now. I would suggest,moreover:

Anti-vaccination activist may be viewed as a pejorative claim about a living person, thus any use of it as a category for a living person must be strongly and specifically sourced. It contains two parts, each of which must be satisfied: The person must be broadly 'anti-vaccine' as a general principle, and that must actively promote such a broad 'anti-vaccine' position.

Being opposed to specific vaccines (one entry in the category was apparently placed there because he doubted the need to continue the smallpox vaccine in the 1970's in Europe - Gerhard Buchwald now deceased) Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is there without any rational basis in sources. Jenny McCarthy who specifically denies the label. David Icke unsourced. And so on. Collect (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• There's no need for "strongly and specifically sourced" -- a requirement of that sort is already well embedded in our general policies. Editors' views on whether the term is "pejorative" have no bearing, and there's no ground whatsoever for a "self-identification" or "disavowal" angle here -- what matters is what reliable sources tell us. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

If the sources do not state "activist" is the person still an "activist" in Misplaced Pages's voice? If the person is not specifically "anti-vaccination" per sources, are they still broadly "anti-vaccination" in Misplaced Pages's voice? Did you note the examples I gave - including one from a person who was likely right that general smallpox vaccinations in 1970s Europe were likely unnecessary? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

No, if the sources do not clearly state "X is an anti-vaccine activist" (or something REALLY close to that) then it is OR for us to make that determination. In even an extreme example, our Jenny McCarthy article has right in the lede that she is an anti-vaccine activist. She probably is. Unfortunately, the sources provided in the article (at least for that statement) don't actually say that. One talks about activists, but does not call McCarthy one. Another is an editorial blog post that characterizes the sentiment of reader opinion, rather than stating anything as the author or their publication. In other words, even for one of the most well known "activists", our article fails to make the case for tagging her as such. I imagine that if pressed, editors at that article would come up with some on-point reliable sources for the statement - and I think our policies oblige us to do so before branding/categorizing/labelling a BLP. --Tgeairn (talk) 18:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This looks suspiciously like trolling, I'm afraid. Kennedy is a very well known apologist for anti-vaccination views. See , , , just for starters - all in the well-argued section on anti-vaccine activism in the very article you say does not establish the categorisation.

As to what Jenny McCarthy thinks, her motivation for trying to bury the fact of her years-long crusade against vaccination has more to do with the fact that it has killed her attempts to make a career beyond taking her clothes off.

You may find people on WP:FTN who know more about the subject in detail, the world of anti-vaccine activism is barely known to a lot of people - they either see the anti-vax lies as a legitimate part of a "debate" or are stunned to find that anybody would deny the science in such an open and shut case. Guy (Help!) 18:18, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have no issue with the category being renamed to something less inflammatory but still reflecting the fact that these are individuals prominently identified with the anti-vaccine movement. We absolutely should not be whitewashing this: they are responsible for outbreaks of preventable disease leading to serious harm and even death. Guy (Help!) 11:24, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• My thoughts too. This type of whitewashing should not happen. It would be better to find alternative wording which fits better. How about "Those loved by the anti-vax movement", or "Those who pander to the anti-vax movement", or "Those who profit from the anti-vax movement"? (I AM joking! ) These people certainly fit in them. RS which label them as anti-vax are generally easy to find, so deletion is not proper. Just add a {{cn}} tag and request a better source.

What they claim about themselves, especially coming from fringe promoters of nonsense, is rather irrelevant. Such types and groups always choose misleading self-descriptions, and Wikipedians have learned to never buy such self promotional pleading. Instead, we faithfully document their objections to the label, but we give RS the weight they deserve, which is much more than given to the subject. We are a mainstream encyclopedia which places more value on mainstream RS than fringe sources. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:08, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• On second thought, Guy's wording is pretty good, placing the burden on what independent RS say, which should always be the case: Category: Individuals identified with the anti-vaccine movement. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:20, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Joanne Chun

This person is not a local celebrity, rather a high school student at my school trying to be popular.

Should Misplaced Pages publish the name of the man who Emma Sulkowicz alleges raped her?

Should Misplaced Pages publish the name of the man who Emma Sulkowicz alleges raped her? He has not been convicted, nor charged with any crime and a university tribunal found him “not responsible”. He has given two public interviews, which appear to be an effort to clear his name after the Columbia Spectator (university newspaper) controversially published his name online as Sulkowicz’s alleged rapist in connection with Sulkowicz’s high profile performance art project, Mattress Performance: Carry That Weight. Talk page discussion of the issue can be found here --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

His name is publicized in numerous locations, including the New York Times. Kelly 02:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Kelly is currently the subject of an ANI thread related to this page. Link. Townlake (talk) 03:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Cite name I've already made my point on the talk page but I'd say the better way of phrasing it is should we republish his name now that he's acknowledged he is the recipient of the accusations. I can't find anything in BLP which should suggest we shouldn't. Also, note the parallel discussion at Gamergate controvery. GraniteSand (talk) 02:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes - You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. His name has appeared in numerous reliable sources for weeks. He has given interview. He is not trying to hide. He has been cleared of any charges. There is no policy or practical reason to omit his name.- MrX 02:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• No. Anyone-can-edit does not mean anyone can use Misplaced Pages to amplify an attack. In general, articles do not "allege" wrongdoings against non-public figures because hundreds of such allegations are made in various forms each day and the names are immaterial—an encyclopedia handles things differently from news media. There is no encyclopedic benefit from recording the name of the person involved. Wait until a court case is settled. The views of the person involved are not relevant. Johnuniq (talk) 03:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with much of that but I'll just ask, what part of BLP is it you think this is violating? GraniteSand (talk) 03:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Per the named individuals's father - "And yet if you Google him, in half of the articles you´ll find, he is still labeled a serial rapist.” It seems the reason they went public was that his name had already been illicitly leaked and they wanted Internet search results to also show their protestations of innocence. It would be a violation of BLP to keep his name out of this article. Kelly 03:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

And, if we publish here, then his name will be linked to his accuser on the top search result site in the world and the thousands of automated mirrors of it. No turning back from that, no moving on ever. Every search for his name will forever first pull up her article here. That is the result of publishing in her article. Why do that? What benefit? --Tgeairn (talk) 03:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand, if we don't name him, people will search "Emma Sulcowicz accuser" to find more about him, then click on articles with his name in them. Google will eventually associate has associated the keywords with his name. An inadvertent, smaller "miserable failure". InedibleHulk (talk) 20:48, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

• No. The student has given two interviews, but only after he was outed by others. He has allowed himself to be photographed, but only in the shadows, so he's still trying to maintain some anonymity. Adding his name to the article offers no further clarity, but doing so will probably spread the name much further than the other publications have. Sarah (SV) 03:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• No: What is the benefit to the project or our readers of publishing? Whether we use BLPCRIME, BLP1E, BLPNAME, or some other reasoning - the fact remains that he wants to put this behind him. The two sources I read (NYT and something else linked earlier) both had quotes from the accused and his family saying they just want it to end. Just because we *could* publish it without violating our own policies certainly doesn't mean we *should*. His name adds nothing whatsoever to the reader's understanding of the Emma_Sulkowicz article. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:20, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

  Adding his name to the article (and he did make his name public) does humanize him. He's been cleared, so he doesn't deserve to be the target of "the accused" claims that Sulkowicz makes him the target of without response. Kelly 03:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Accused is low-profile, and only known for an unproven rape allegation. You don't need the accused's name to understand the article's subject. I see no rational argument for adding the name. Townlake (talk) 03:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. On the one hand his name is already widely published, but on the other hand his name is not important. He was cleared of charges. She has chosen to carry around a mattress to publicize a perceived wrongdoing. He has actually already been cleared of that wrongdoing in a hearing before the university. I think we should take the high ground and withhold his name. I don't think we would be doing a disservice to the reader by omitting the man's name at this time. Bus stop (talk) 03:52, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes I agree with Mr. X above. We're making it clear that he's an alleged rapist. It's the job of Misplaced Pages to allow our readers to draw their own conclusions from what we give them, and we can safely rely on the fact-checking of all the other media outlets that have fact-checkers and not pretend the media doesn't exist. Also, neither will be students anymore per the NYT interview, in a matter of three months in fact.--A21sauce (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose adding the name of a low-profile individual unofficially accused of rape, but neither indicted nor convicted. The name is not necessary in the article about the accuser, and we have far higher BLP standards (thankfully) than newspapers do. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Time isn't a newspaper nor is Elle. The male bias on Misplaced Pages is completely evident in this entire section.--A21sauce (talk) 04:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

A21sauce, while male bias is an issue on WP, I honestly do not think it's accurate to characterize this discussion as a male bias issue considering the two editors who have removed the accused student's name from article are not male editors, and are actually members of the WP:GGTF where improving this article has been discussed. Efforts have included preventing the Emma Sulkowicz article from becoming a biased and poorly referenced attack piece on Sulkowicz, as well as removing the accused name while discussion ensues as to whether publishing his name is appropriate. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Good to know, BoboMeowCat, thanks. You do realize that women can be sexist against their own gender too, right? The alleged rapist even claims he was raised by a feminist.--A21sauce (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Support. Well sourced: NY Daily News 9 news AustraliaWashington Post. Subject has chosen to go public to counter the allegations; by refusing to say his name, and only categorizing him as "the accused" Misplaced Pages demeans his humanity. It makes Sulkowicz a person with a face and him so irrelevant his name isn't important. NE Ent 11:15, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The person falls under BLP1E as far as I can tell, and should be protected as such. Were he otherwise notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article on his own, then the allegation can be used as "widely reported" but as he is not, we can't. Absolute policy issue here. Collect (talk) 13:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Cullen and WP:BLPCRIME : "For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." I would go even further and suggest that the prose in "Sulkowicz's complaint" be toned right down - I appreciate Misplaced Pages is not censored, but seriously, is the mention of anal rape really important to mention to further the reader's understanding of the subject? I would say not. Ritchie333 14:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Yes This woman's notability comes from being allegedly raped, making her alleged rapist a key part of the story. Can't make an allegation without naming someone. The whole point of the mattress is getting one particular guy punished, so if we want to describe the situation, we need to be particular. Either that, or delete the article. Or rename her "the accuser". As it stands, we have one humanized person against one faceless menace. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:59, February 6, 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Collect and Ritchie333. We aspire to be a respected encyclopedia. We are not a scandal sheet; we do not exist to promote scandals. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Then what's the point of the article? Subtract the scandal and its coverage, we have nothing left. She'd just be a student. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:26, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

One can write the article without including the alleged attacker's name. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

One can do a lot of things. I think we should do better. This is a story about two sides, but one of them's turned into a prop for the other. Every mention of "the accused" just reinforces that he doesn't exist independently of the accusation. It's more a problem for the NPOV noticeboard, as is. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:49, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

• Yes Regarding BLPCRIME's "unless a conviction is secured", there won't be any trial because no charges were or will be pressed according to the article. We have all the information now we can get. And my personal opinion is that something that can be directly sourced to New York Times, Washington Post and Time can't really be a BLP violation in any case. That is just ridiculous abuse of the BLP policy. --Pudeo' 19:38, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

We should not include this. It is a trivium and Misplaced Pages is not here to Google-bomb people who have, according to the consensus view, done nothing wrong. Guy (Help!) 11:22, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per BLPCRIME, per IAR (ie any rule that would allow us to increase the harm suffered by this person should be ignored). In reply to Pudeo - to say we should ignore BLPCRIME because " there won't be any trial because no charges were or will be pressed" makes abbsolutly no sense. If he has not been charged then all we do is perpetuate what is essentially a wild, legally unsubstantiated accusation that has failed to clear even the minimal bar of a college tribunal not just once but on appeal as well. If later he seeks significant coverage I would reconsider.JBH (talk) 16:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

  It means we don't "have to wait for a conviction" to make sure it's viable. Instead, the case was dropped and the person in question was featured in NYT, Time, Washington Post which means it's acceptable and there is no BLP issue. BLPCRIME would apply if the case was just quietly dropped and there was no coverage from reliable and notable sources. --Pudeo' 20:10, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

  Respectfully, I must disagree. BLPCRIME exists precisely for this type of situation. It is to protect people from unfounded allegations which, at this time, this claim is. It does not matter who or what is reporting the name we have higher standards because Misplaced Pages is not transitory like a press article is.

  This kid does not even rate his own article and even if he did including a rape allegation would not be supportable as things now stand. To put his name in this article would punitively and permanently identify him as an alleged rapist and is just beyond the pale of responsible editing. If there is not even enough evidence for a prosecution and adding his name does not significantly enhance the article then naming and shaming (because that is all this would be) is both WP:UNDUE and ethical wrong. JBH (talk) 20:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'm one of the absolute last people who will ever cite BLPPRIVACY, as I think there have to be extremely compelling circumstances to leave out one of the Five Ws. A quick examination of my edit history will show one such circumstance where I strongly support it, and the Emma Sulkowicz case doesn't even come close to that. The person obliquely referred to as "the accuser" (a reference to the somewhat tortured writing in the article, not a comment on his innocence or guilt) has decided to publicly discuss the case from his perspective, and has been very open about his name and the details of both the case and his personal life. One could argue that Columbia's initial outing of him forced his hand a bit, but that's speculation on our part. He chose to publicly acknowledge that he was the one Sulkowicz accused and subsequently targeted in her senior thesis, and BLPCRIME does not say that we need to attempt to cover up the name of a person who makes this choice. In the most congruous example I can think of at the moment, we quite rightly have Trisha Ellen Meili's name in the Central Park jogger case article; like this man she publicly acknowledged her role in the case, and like this man some earlier press coverage (in her case newspapers targeting a black audience) may well have forced her hand in doing so. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with The Blade of the Northern Lights but all of the above comments makes me think that we won't ever reach a consensus on this even in the next two months, Misplaced Pages being a community of nonprofessionals who have feelings that run counter to what's been reported. (Is this like readers who are too sensitive to the fact of the US violating international human rights statutes?) I suggest we table the discussion until June 2015 when both Emma and he are due to graduate. (Even then this might not be resolved, but at least the accused will no longer be a student.)--A21sauce (talk) 03:58, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

More time would bring more clarity. If he steps fully into the spotlight and engages the press in a significant and extended manner then put him in. Right now, in my opinion, the rules say we can put him but editorial ethics say we should not. I say this because stories in the press fade but Misplaced Pages, likely the top search result does not. This person is still very young and publishing his name here, particularly in an article on the alledged victim, gives little context to his story and leaves a cloud over him forever that extended context could mitigate. In fact I would be more willing to support an article on him than a mere mention in this article. In that event I would support his inclusion here. Context is everything. JBH (talk) 04:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Heimo Pfeifenberger

Per the Austrian article referenced (#5), Heimo resigned, a mutual agreement, not a sacking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.44.25.29 (talk) 15:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

"Die Trennung sei allerdings einvernehmlich erfolgt..." Correct. So amended per source. §FreeRangeFrog 21:53, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Patricia Neal

The infobox for the Patricia Neal article lists Gary Cooper as her "partner." Cooper and Neal had an affair over a period of a year or more, while Cooper remained married. Neal and Cooper never maintained a household, and their affair was not publicly disclosed at the time. Is this an appropriate use of the "partner" infobox parameter? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The amount of coverage of Cooper in the biography is way too high and gossip-mill fodder. Collect (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone else want to weigh in on this issue in addition to Collect? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Does not belong in infobox. The documentation says "life partners" belong here. --NeilN 01:29, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Ali Khamenei and holocaust denial

• Is there any standard criteria for labeling a BLP as a holocaust denier? I know there are sources stating that Khamenei is a denier, and others stating that his words were misquoted and/or taken out of context. My problem is that I haven't yet found a source where he says "it didn't happen," so I'm not sure how to label him. As he is a BLP, how do I proceed on this issue? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hmmm... this one is slightly tricky. He's quoted in the article as questioning whether or not the Holocaust happened, but he didn't deny that it happened per se. It's enough to where I personally would label him as being someone who didn't think that it happened, as it's pretty obvious what the underlying tone is but you're right- he hasn't explicitly said that it didn't happen, which is probably intentional. I don't know if this should be labeled or not since he's treading that very thin line between speculation and outright denial of the Holocaust. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 12:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Project for the New American Century

Has a lengthy list of persons with "associations to the Bush administration". Unfortunately I doubt the relevance of such a list where other organizations are not treated similarly, and the seeming aim of listing such people twice in the same article is an implication that membership and being a Bush Republican officeholder were intimately connected (i.e. making a connection in this article that the person is connected to both the Bush administration in some manner, and to PNAC is some manner but not using any source making that actual connection), which I find to be SYNTH by listing, and a violation of the WP:BLP requirements on sourcing, but my judgment has been questioned in the past and I leave it to fully uninvolved editors to comment. Thanks. Collect (talk) 19:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis of course is right out. However there are plenty of quality sources that specifically link Bush administration officials to PNAC (see NY Times, BBC, etc). You should replace any synthesis with references to those sources. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The folks get listed twice in the article -- the second listing is in a table - artificially making the Bush-PNAC connection clear to readers. The article will not suffer a loss if the chart is removed. Collect (talk) 22:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing artificial about the Bush/PNAC connection. Whether it is in a table or not showing our readers the magnitude of the connection is important when looking at the role of PNAC in the history of the US. The table is effective but maybe a bit UNDUE simply because of its size. An explicit discussion of the connection naming some of the major players would be better. I would support removing the table iff there is a section discussing the connection. Until then the table should stay. JBH (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Karma Thubten Trinlay Gyurme

Poorly sourced article (only one publication by a religious organisation is listed). Other for being "recognized" as a tulku (re-incarnate lama), which hundreds of people are, I don't see how this person meets notability criteria. Should it be deleted? Chris Fynn (talk) 10:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion.- MrX 17:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Brian Williams

Almost one-third of this article is currently dedicated to a contemporary controversy. At present it is the epitome of recentism; a decades-long career has been reduced to a few sentences while nearly every quote and minor controversy from the past week is discussed.

The most contentious example of this is the repeated addition of a paragraph referring to Williams recalling that his hotel was overrun by gangs, and a random eyewitness saying he disagreed with the word choice. While perhaps relevant to the controversy itself, it is not nearly significant enough to be included in a biographical entry.

My personal suggestion would be the creation of an additional page dedicated solely to the controversy. This page could at least temporarily serve to include all relevant information for that current event. Then later, once the issue is no longer hot-button or immediately recent, only the most important elements could summarized and inserted into the BLP, and the controversy-dedicated page could either be deleted or kept up.

Right now the Misplaced Pages article reads more as a compilation of all the evidence "against" the subject than as a biographical encyclopedic entry. Misplaced Pages, as I understand it, is not supposed to be a debate forum nor a live-stream of controversial topics.

Charles Sobraj

This article states that the first time Sobraj was jailed was in 1993 in Paris. This is clearly inaccurate; if I remember Thomas Thompson's book 'Serpentine' correctly, his first arrest and imprisonment in Poissy Prison was 1963. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.152.94.36 (talk) 02:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Nicholas Edward Alahverdian

Nicholas Edward Alahverdian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I've never filed one of these before so my apologies if this is being over-cautions. So, with recent page protection actions in mind, please check out the recent addition to the talk page here talk:Nicholas Edward Alahverdian. I also have a question which is: what is the correct venue to resolve this recent flurry of edits regarding Mr. Alahverdian's controversial past? If those edits are backed up by reliable sources and are not libelous then should we keep removing them? —Noah 06:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The article is currently fully protected, and there is a proposal in talk to place the article in WP:AFD - Cwobeel (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

My question was more in the opposite direction: if the article is kept, and if the controversial claims are well sourced, should we stop deleting them from the article? I don't have a dog in this fight... was more just curious about the intersection of NPOV and BLP in this case. —Noah 23:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

David Goodwillie

IP address 171.99.139.55 is adding personal life material that is only sourced to a tabloid newspaper. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

There are better sources. STV (TV channel), The Herald (Glasgow), The Scotsman . --GRuban (talk) 18:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Repost: V.V.S. Laxman

I'd really like some help with this issue. Thanks --Dweller (talk) 13:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

An editor is removing a cited claim that this person is the great grandnephew of a former President on the basis that VVS Laxman told him he's not the grandson of any President. Ignoring the error (nephew/son) to what extent does a purported conversation between a BLP subject and a Wikipedian trump WP:V? I looked in our self-published guidelines, but there's nothing about conversations. --Dweller (talk) 15:23, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:V must take priority as the alleged conversation presumably can't be verified. I'm sure I've seen something in guidelines about deprecation of verbal reports or word-of-mouth sources. The cited claim should be reinstated. Jack | 14:43, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, in this instance as the "fact" in question hasn't been disputed (it wasn't suggesting Laxman was a grandson of a president, which was the question asked of the man) then it should be reinstated because it's got to be presumed to be correct. But there is a wider question of what one does when "verified but incorrect" material comes into conflict with "unverified but correct". My view, FWIW, is that as Laxman's notability doesn't rest on his relationship with the ex-president, it's not essential as part of the article, so it could be omitted. No information is better than wrong information in an encyclopedia, IMO. But in this instance, there's so far no reason to suspect that the information is wrong. Johnlp (talk) 15:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

zoe sugg

Zoe Sugg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I would like to have Zoe Sugg removed please.I am Zoe Elizabeth Sugg and I do not wish to have a wiki page on me please.I did not give permission to have it up and some of the articles are rather false.Please remove me from Misplaced Pages as I am stopping all vlogging and blogging and wish to remove my "fame" off here.I hope I can type zoe sugg in and not see a link to wikipedia.Thank you,Zoe Elizabeth Sugg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoella17 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Please state which information in the article is false. Unfortunately; you and your vlog seem to have attracted lots of attention in the media, so it's doubtful that the article will be completely deleted. However, if it has false information it's important to get that information removed from the article. So what is false?~ ONUnicornproblem solving 18:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Zoella17: I checked the sources and they seem pretty solid for the content. Given the abundance of sources the article will likely remain in Misplaced Pages. - - Cwobeel (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to play the old devil's advocate here and suggest that Zoella17 is not in fact Miss Sugg. I've taken a gander at Miss Sugg's YouTube channel and she's uploaded a video within the last 24 hours - hardly the actions of someone wishing to stop vlogging I'm afraid. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

John Anderson, 3rd Viscount Waverley

John Anderson, 3rd Viscount Waverley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

has been repeatedly added to the BLP, sourced to a primary source http://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-leave-of-absence/ .

tried adding this as a footnote:

However, he was granted leave of absence from the House of Lords on 06 November 2013, so is no longer a sitting peer, ergo he is not able to function as an elected peer. He has suspended himself. Below is from from the House's Companion to Standing Orders: LEAVE OF ABSENCE

• 1.27 Members of the House are to attend the sittings of the House. If they cannot attend, they should obtain leave of absence. At any time during a Parliament, a member of the House may obtain leave of absence for the rest of the Parliament by applying in writing to the Clerk of the Parliaments.
• 1.28 Before the beginning of every Parliament the Clerk of the Parliaments writes to those members who were on leave of absence at the end of the preceding Parliament to ask whether they wish to renew that leave of absence for the new Parliament. In addition, at the start of each session of Parliament the Clerk of the Parliaments writes to those members (other than bishops) who attended very infrequently in the previous session, inviting them to apply for Leave of Absence.
• 1.29 The House grants leave of absence to those who apply. The House also grants leave to all members to whom the Clerk of the Parliaments has written as described in the preceding paragraph who fail to reply within three months of the Clerk of the Parliaments' letter being sent.
• 1.30 Directions relating to those on leave of absence are as follows:

(a) members of the House who have been granted leave of absence should not attend sittings of the House or of any committee of the House until their leave has expired or been terminated, except to take the oath of allegiance;

(b) members of the House on leave of absence who wish to attend during the period for which leave was granted should give notice in writing to the Clerk of the Parliaments at least three months before the day on which they wish to attend; and their leave is terminated three months from the date of this notice, or sooner if the House so directs;

(c) a member of the House on leave of absence may not act as a supporter in the ceremony of introduction;

(d) a member of the House on leave of absence may not vote in the election of the Lord Speaker or in by-elections for hereditary peers

No secondary reliable source has been furnished, and the relevance of taking a leave of absence has not been furnished. Sans a secondary source saying this of any importance I had removed it. Any other opinions? Collect (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Good call. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I have hit the revert limit -- anyone else agree this does not belong? Collect (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I have added the article to my watchlist and notified Rodolph of this discussion. JBH (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Why call it a good call? Do you willfully want to ignore the significance of Leave of Absence? His having taken leave of absence means he is no longer functioning as an elected hereditary sitting peer in the House. It is true that he might reappear when the new Parliament sits later this year but I can not see for a moment why you choose to keep spitefully and bone-headedly discarding valuable and validified information? I have given the main source, the Companion to Standing Orders and the UK Parliament website. What is your problem?Rodolph (talk) 20:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a primary source, and per WP:BLPPRIMARY, extreme care should be exercised when using primary sources in a biography of a living person. Also, if no reliable secondary source has said that the leave of absence is noteworthy, then why should it be in an encyclopaedia? — Strongjam (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Unverified supercentenarians

This is a follow-up to the prior unresolved discussion but there's still more discussions about the listing of "unverified" supercentenarians. See also the 2014 deaths page (which with the 2015 page moves into problematic BLP issues as these people may in fact be alive). These are people in which no reliable source has actually verified their listing. The reliable source that is offered (GRG) has explicitly not verified their listing, only listing them as "pending" verification. The only purpose I can see to including them is so that people can copy the entire GRG table in case someone later becomes verified. This is pure WP:CRYSTAL speculation, there is no end time when these people would be removed. I find List of supercentenarians who died before 1980 to be the worst example of this: this includes people who may have died at 110 years old over 35 years ago. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree that we have no business including these here. It's one thing for certain well-known disputed cases (the Shigechiyo Izumis of the world exist), but the people in this topic area don't seem to understand that Misplaced Pages is not the GRG, nor are we it's official output. Unverified by its nature means that no one is completely sure, and that level of surety is necessary; we have had cases (Margaret Fish being a spectacular flameout) where the GRG prematurely stated the person was dead, and users then perpetuated this mistake by putting it on Misplaced Pages. We should only be going on what sources are clear on, and that's completely incompatible with including giant swathes of "unverified cases" in longevity articles.The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• The GRG is a group of well-meaning amateurs. Not sure they are a reliable source to start with. --Randykitty (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Mekenna Melvin

"Fun Facts About Mekenna Melvin From Chuck". Girl2Watch.com. Retrieved November 2, 2010.

This is listed as a source in the article... however the link leads to a malicious phishing site... please ensure its removal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.183.130 (talk)

Source removed and mostly replaced with others. --NeilN 01:13, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

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