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A couple editors lately have been attempting to edit into this article a statement in the lede that MSNBC has ""long been accused of ] ]". There is no question that MSNBC has taken a progressive slant overall as compared with other mainstream press outlets, but I have a number of issues with adding this particular statement to the lede.. First, using terms like "accused" and "biased reporting" are inherently ], regardless of sourcing. See ]. Note that the statement isn't that MSNBC is a liberal outlet, but that it has been ''accused'' of being liberal, as if that were wrongdoing. Left''wing'' (along with right''wing'') are loaded terms in that regard as well. They imply a sort of extremism, and judgment from the political, that is usually shared only by people who are knee deep in politics, as opposed to being neutral factual descriptions. As a mainstream outlet, MNSBC is hardly extremist, it's just more liberal and perhaps so in a partisan way. The sources quoted, meanwhile, are not adequate to make this kind of claim. They are individual opinions, and analysis, that one aspect or another of MSNBC is liberal. They are not accusations, and they do not support that MSNBC has "long been accused". To support that, particularly in the lede, you would have to have multiple sources strong enough to satisfy ] concerns that long-running accusations of bias are significant to MSNBC's notability. The lede is supposed to be a summary of the article body, so it would have to be developed there first. I see plenty of material in the body that MSNBC is liberal, and some that there is a bias or partisanship. Perhaps the current lede's paragraph that MSNBC has an acknowledged progressivist slant in its opinion programming isn't strong or direct enough to say that it is a liberal-ish news station, but making a broad claim like this goes too far based on the article content. - ] (]) 20:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
A couple editors lately have been attempting to edit into this article a statement in the lede that MSNBC has ""long been accused of ] ]". There is no question that MSNBC has taken a progressive slant overall as compared with other mainstream press outlets, but I have a number of issues with adding this particular statement to the lede.. First, using terms like "accused" and "biased reporting" are inherently ], regardless of sourcing. See ]. Note that the statement isn't that MSNBC is a liberal outlet, but that it has been ''accused'' of being liberal, as if that were wrongdoing. Left''wing'' (along with right''wing'') are loaded terms in that regard as well. They imply a sort of extremism, and judgment from the political, that is usually shared only by people who are knee deep in politics, as opposed to being neutral factual descriptions. As a mainstream outlet, MNSBC is hardly extremist, it's just more liberal and perhaps so in a partisan way. The sources quoted, meanwhile, are not adequate to make this kind of claim. They are individual opinions, and analysis, that one aspect or another of MSNBC is liberal. They are not accusations, and they do not support that MSNBC has "long been accused". To support that, particularly in the lede, you would have to have multiple sources strong enough to satisfy ] concerns that long-running accusations of bias are significant to MSNBC's notability. The lede is supposed to be a summary of the article body, so it would have to be developed there first. I see plenty of material in the body that MSNBC is liberal, and some that there is a bias or partisanship. Perhaps the current lede's paragraph that MSNBC has an acknowledged progressivist slant in its opinion programming isn't strong or direct enough to say that it is a liberal-ish news station, but making a broad claim like this goes too far based on the article content. - ] (]) 20:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
:Ed Schultz, Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, Al Sharpton.....it is pretty well-known. If anything, it is acting as a propaganda arm of the Obama administration. ] (]) 20:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
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agreed, they've also aired other significant documentaries, and reaired lots of the Dateline NBC content, but they've really come a long way with Lockup, and it's an enduring franchise of its own.Boogerpatrol (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Pew Research study
Pew's study indicating that MSNBC focuses far more on opinion/commentary than on "hard news" reporting compared to other news channels is mentioned in the "assertions of liberal bias" section...but the Pew study mentions nothing about alleged liberal bias. Isn't that rather misplaced? 75.76.213.161 (talk) 00:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
If they embraced their liberal/progressive leanings...
Is there a point to having a criticism section that accuses them of liberal bias? They have embraced it, they acknowledge they have a bias, doesn't make much sense to criticize them for something they embrace and admit to. It's like criticizing www.ironchariots.org for being biased in favor for atheism when the readily admit that they are an atheist website. ScienceApe (talk) 16:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Good point, but a lot of the criticism comes from a period when MSNBC was still basically billing itself as a "straight" news organization. I haven't looked into it lately but I rather suspect they still contend, a la Fox News, that their "straight" news programming is unbiased. Of course, their isn't much in the way of "straight news" presentation on this network anymore. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps, but compared to the other cable news sources FNC generally provides the viewer with a more in depth content and balanced stories.
Controversies over individual shows
Regarding this BRD cycle I think both editors are right. It's legitimate encyclopedic information, but on the other hand a long scattershot list of controversies over individual programs is WP:UNDUE and not completely relevant to the network as a whole. Every network has a bunch of controversial stuff, in this case it's controversial in the arena of politics; other networks get embroiled in controversies over their own areas. The fact that the network as a whole generates controversy is relevant. The blow-by-blow of what each network host does to stir things up is not. Under the circumstances, to avoid this becoming a WP:COAT I suggest creating a separate list-style article that gives a sampling (not an attempt to be comprehensive, that would violate WP:NOT and potentially WP:FORK) of some notable controversies, much as is done with Criticism of Facebook or the article about the list of controversies on Craigslist. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
My reasoning for removing some sections and not others is that I left items that I thought affected more than one show or were big enough to affect the network as a whole. The others should be covered on Misplaced Pages, but on articles for individuals and individual shows, and perhaps on a comprehensive controversies article. Gamaliel (talk) 17:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Only controversies the editors of a liberal article deem worthy are notable, which coincidentally involve conservatives. Micheal Savages weekend show cancellation is notable vs Martin Bashir's liberal weekday show with many times the number of viewers cancellation is to be hidden.Igglybloom (talk) 07:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
"Long been accused of left-wing bias"
A couple editors lately have been attempting to edit into this article a statement in the lede that MSNBC has ""long been accused of left-wingbiased reporting". There is no question that MSNBC has taken a progressive slant overall as compared with other mainstream press outlets, but I have a number of issues with adding this particular statement to the lede.. First, using terms like "accused" and "biased reporting" are inherently WP:POV, regardless of sourcing. See WP:W2W. Note that the statement isn't that MSNBC is a liberal outlet, but that it has been accused of being liberal, as if that were wrongdoing. Leftwing (along with rightwing) are loaded terms in that regard as well. They imply a sort of extremism, and judgment from the political, that is usually shared only by people who are knee deep in politics, as opposed to being neutral factual descriptions. As a mainstream outlet, MNSBC is hardly extremist, it's just more liberal and perhaps so in a partisan way. The sources quoted, meanwhile, are not adequate to make this kind of claim. They are individual opinions, and analysis, that one aspect or another of MSNBC is liberal. They are not accusations, and they do not support that MSNBC has "long been accused". To support that, particularly in the lede, you would have to have multiple sources strong enough to satisfy WP:WEIGHT concerns that long-running accusations of bias are significant to MSNBC's notability. The lede is supposed to be a summary of the article body, so it would have to be developed there first. I see plenty of material in the body that MSNBC is liberal, and some that there is a bias or partisanship. Perhaps the current lede's paragraph that MSNBC has an acknowledged progressivist slant in its opinion programming isn't strong or direct enough to say that it is a liberal-ish news station, but making a broad claim like this goes too far based on the article content. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Ed Schultz, Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, Al Sharpton.....it is pretty well-known. If anything, it is acting as a propaganda arm of the Obama administration. Arzel (talk) 20:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
