Misplaced Pages

• This might be the closest thing to what Coretheapple seems to be talking about. Everymorning talk 18:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
• There is Misplaced Pages:A primer for newcomers. JohnCD (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

As long as it kept to the technical aspect of how to edit, and stayed far, far away from things talking about the 5P, exact wording of current policies and guidelines (even long standing rarely significantly changed ones like WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS), stay away from abstract concepts such as "courtesy" and "respect". All of those things of course are important for newbies and the curious; but codifying into a manual some of those concepts and !rules would further the spread of dogma that "As Misplaced Pages is the moment I came in, is the way it shall be forever! Because someone wiser than me brought these rules down from upon high". We have enough of that crap going on now without an actual published book declaring for the world to see that these things are this way and that way they shall always be. We'll have some one classifying the 5P as the Misplaced Pages Constitution instead of an essay based on its inclusion on the front page of Misplaced Pages for Idiots (quite an apropos location based on the title for the 5P really, IMHO). Look at organized religion for what happens when you write a book.Camelbinky (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, at least technical. Look, maybe it's just me, but I had a hell of a time finding Help:Overview of referencing styles. It would be nice to have a comprehensive guidebook to point to when you encounter a beginner stumbling along. And why not include policies? It's hard at first to grasp why, for instance, we prohibit original research. It would be nice of a "dummies" guide to explain to beginners why that isn't allowed. The current policy pages don't get into the "why" aspect very much. They're not always self-evident. Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that experienced, helpful editors visit the Teahouse from time to time. We answer large numbers of "newbie" questions there. The experienced hosts are good at pointing new editors In the right direction. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have a sincere follow-up question for User:Coretheapple, hope they don't mind- If we write a book, does it not give newbies the idea that if they see some one changing a policy, or if policy conflicts with said book, that the newbie would become confused at best, and possibly hostile to any changes in the worst case. We'd have endless debates, !votes, and downright nasty arguments over whether a policy can be changed from what it is said in the book. Also- this ties our hands on being progressive, a work in progress, and willing to always change with new consensus since debates on content will be full of "the Holy Book of Misplaced Pages said this! You can't override with a local consensus!" As User:Cullen328 pointed out there are good experienced hosts at the teahouse and other noticeboards who help reach consensus, that does not always stick to the letter of established policy. Even our own established policy pages are always going to lag what we actually do and our current consensus. A policy and guideline is simply- "this is what worked before, so we wrote it down to guide us for next time, but next time might be slightly different so consensus, while it should keep to this established consensus in spirit, the details may differ." Sorry, this may be a bit convoluted! Camelbinky (talk)

I think you're raising a good point, but actually one easy to deal with. Such book should say in bold type that the wording of the policies in Misplaced Pages prevail, and that this is just a general guide for the perplexed. For Misplaced Pages purposes it would have the strength of an essay. I think it's main function would be to help with all the technical details that, I have to say, still flumox me. For example, providing a good guide to all the automated editing platforms that we see out there. (Which is a roundabout way of saying that I personally would find such a manual useful.) Sure, the info is available on Misplaced Pages, but why not give newbies a manual they can use to quickly find the instructions if they want to give it a try? I'll bet the Foundation could get either a volunteer or team of volunteers to do that or perhaps just pay somebody 10K to do it. The important thing is an index, which to be done right costs about $1K. You can then revise it as often as you want. Coretheapple (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I like where this is heading and I do now hope a book is written. I just have one more issue that I hope User:Coretheapple can solve- If the Foundation is willing to pay $10K to a person or group to write this book, is it possible we'd have a large group of editors claim "SCANDAL!" because the Foundation is willing to pay for the book to be written but is (generally) against editors being paid to edit?Camelbinky (talk) 15:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

If anyone can't distinguish between the Foundation paying someone to write a guidebook and paying someone to edit, that's their problem. Coretheapple (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh two other points I was going to make: first when I said "idiot's guide" I really meant the "dummies guides," the ones with the yellow cover, though I see there is a knock-off series with the "idiots" name. Secondly, I think a bound volume would be helpful with older people and retirees, who are underrepresented on Misplaced Pages and would respond well to that kind of help. Coretheapple (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

You are looking for WP:CCC. EllenCT (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

MWhy do you need Misplaced Pages for idiots? Aren't there enough idiots on Misplaced Pages already? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.32.192 (talk) 00:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This is true. Coretheapple (talk) 01:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately, there are also enough intelligent volunteers that we have built a pretty darned good 💕 with 4.7 million English language articles, which is improving every day. When we criticize this project's many flaws, it is always good to keep that in mind. Cullen Let's discuss it 17:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This is true as well. I was engaged in a rare moment of levity. It won't happen again! Coretheapple (talk) 18:16, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Help:Desk is great but some prefer to see whole overview or dashboard

The Help Desk question-and-answer page (Help:Desk) is great for getting specific answers, but some users might prefer to read an entire overview page to see a more comprehensive view of Misplaced Pages, such as reading WP:About. In particular, I would suspect the "medical student" mindset would prefer to speed read an extensive overview of all major aspects, and then re-read (or re-scan) the portions which are related to specific issues of concern to them. It is always important to consider the needs of people who prefer to read textbooks cover-to-cover, and who might be frustrated by a "20 questions" interface of tedious dialog about the typical FAQ topics. Also, a wp:Dashboard for typical user subjects might be preferred by similar users. Currently, there is the link wp:Overview, as a redirect to wp:About. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes and another way of approaching it would be something along the lines of the old Yahoo! Directory. Remember that? It was an index of the Internet, organized by topics, and in the 1990s it purported to cover the entire Internet. That kind of approach might work as well. On second thought it occurred to me that an index (DMOZ is another example) or dashboard would not go far enough. It would be great for people who know the basics and for experienced users, but not for newcomers, who might need to be walked through the project. Coretheapple (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Currently, wp:Index provides an annotated index of WP topics, with short descriptions of each related project page, such as for the source-reference citations. The page "Help:Overview of referencing styles" could be added into that index, as one common topic about using cites. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Well you see, that strengthens my point. So many good resources on Misplaced Pages, but no central repository that can be found in a handy-dandy all-in-one reference! I see Jimbo just got a $1 million award, maybe I can humbly suggest he devote 10K of that to the "Idiots Guide"? Coretheapple (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

When I first started editing in Misplaced Pages I was staggered that there was not a Giant Index somewhere, in skeleton form rather than alphabetic form, so that users could orientate themselves at a glance on what Misplaced Pages contained apart from its articles. The Help pages are a nightmare to navigate (and sometimes to understand), and the Help Desk is an absolute necessity and brilliant resource. . ~ P-123 (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting paper that could be useful as advice for new editors

• Ten Simple Rules for Editing Misplaced Pages
• I discovered this study recently and I wanted to know if other editors thought its content seemed like good advice to offer to newbies. Seems like a good place for new editors to start. Everymorning talk 01:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

What about a forced tutorial for all newbies?

How about doing what a lot of games force new players to go through, such as a non-optional tutorial? Something along the lines of putting newbies in a sandbox and having them follow pop-up instructions that guide them into creating new articles, adding sources, give them a sample page from a resource and show them "to write word for word is copyright infringement" and show them what is and is not acceptable in writing out the idea the source puts forward without being too far off in original research yet not so close as to be plagiarism. How to sign your posts on talk pages could be another easy step. How to bold and italicize and when it is appropriate. Basic markup and technical work.Camelbinky (talk) 17:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

If there is to be a tutorial, either required or strongly encouraged, it should first be tested by volunteer testers who should consider whether it will itself be encouraging or discouraging to new editors. I have seen some training for various products that was rigid and annoying. If we were to do something like that (unintentionally - it is easy to think that training will be useful when it is in fact annoying), it would be editor-non-retention in advance. Any training should be scrutinized carefully. We should be friendly to new editors, but existing editors should be hostile to hostile training. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It does sound as if it might discourage people. Coretheapple (talk) 14:41, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

A truly mandatory tutorial would, moreover, require the end of IP editing. That's something the community has never been willing to do. I suppose that you could require it for people only after they first set up an account, but that would encourage IP editing which certainly isn't what we want to do. It might be implemented for IP editors using cookies or something like that, but that would nonetheless cause problems for those folks who clear their cookies every day. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a way, in theory, around the perverse effect about anonymous editing. That would be to require completing the tutorial in order for a new account to be autoconfirmed. IP editors are never auto-confirmed. Registered editors gain certain rights by being autoconfirmed, and completing the training could be a required condition. I do not recommend required training, or training that is required to be autoconfirmed, because I don't trust that the training will be useful. It is just as likely to be robotic, unfriendly, and discouraging. Who would be responsible for developing the training? Presumably it would be the development staff, who are known for their self-satisfaction and failure to seek feedback from non-development users. If we had an independent test function, it might be possible to develop required training, but I still think that there are other priorities with regards to new editors than forcing them to have training that would probably be robotic and discouraging., Robert McClenon (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

But I think any kind of tutorial would discourage people. What I think needs to be done is to make Misplaced Pages more user-friendly. Doing so has the institutional purpose of keeping the user base as wide as possible. Coretheapple (talk) 14:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate redux

Here is an interesting article from Slate.com by David Auerbach on the factually erroneous article seeded from Mark Bernstein's blog to The Guardian sensationalizing the then-ongoing Gamergate Arbcom case. "The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros: The online encyclopedia chews up and spits out bad facts, and its own policies are letting it happen." Carrite (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The thing is he's absolutely right. We have too much of a tendency to lean towards selective blog posts than news releases that have been fact checked and it just perpetuates bad writing. The essay on verifiability, not truth is an embarrassment for this project. If we can't have truth we shouldn't have anything at all. Misplaced Pages is a great place for articles on science or history, but much of our stuff on social issues or recent events is a mess. We worship the New York Times as reliable and then go on and cite their blog writers for their opinion, which amount to being little more credible than the Huffington Post or Breitbart (which we have banned for reasons that seem more political than practical). Will we even look twice at the Guardian after this fiasco? It will probably be as much as we second guessed the Lancet after they published Wakefield's bogus vaccine/autism paper. We should be much more strict on what we consider reliable sources and focus more on getting things done right, instead of fast. It's not like we're missing out on ad revenue if we don't add the latest news story the instant it comes out. This whole project could use a healthy dose of common sense and patience. Muscat Hoe (talk) 20:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone citing opinion pieces from The New York Times or anywhere else as RS for statements of fact is violating Misplaced Pages policies (see WP:NEWSORG and WP:SOAP). I've seen this done, with opinion pieces from The Guardian and elsewhere. People say "it's RS", but they don't seem to understand that opinion pieces that appear in reliable publications are different from factual news reporting that appears in those publications. The problem is not with "verifiability", but with people manipulating "verifiability" to suit their own ends. "Verifiability" means consulting RS, and that piece in The Guardian was not RS for statements of fact, nor is this piece in Slate. RGloucester — ☎ 21:25, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

On this, I agree. There seems to be a lot of citing of opinion pieces for facts that then get asserted in the encyclopedia's own voice. Even worse, if there are opinion pieces tending to echo each other they can end up being treated as equivalent to a scientific or scholarly consensus on, say, biological evolution or the Holocaust. Op-eds and similar are nothing of the sort. As the recent media misrepresentations of the ArbCom show, we can't treat these kinds of topical, ephemeral opinion pieces on current controversies as reliable. If that means some articles have to be reduced to stubs, or even deleted, to maintain the quality of the encyclopedia, so be it. Metamagician3000 (talk) 02:32, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Read the article more carefully. He doesn't actually criticise Misplaced Pages for recycling errors in the Guardian article in the Misplaced Pages article on Gamergate. I haven't paid enough attention to know for sure, but I am guessing that this is because we didn't. He teases us with "This is where it gets interesting", but then goes on to tell us that the interesting thing is that someone created a hoax article using the Guardian article, which got deleted after a couple of hours. So, not all that interesting, really. He does criticise us for having a policy of "verifiability not truth", but the thing is that we don't. So I expect we will be seeing a note appear at the foot of the Slate article by noon tomorrow explaining why it has been amended. Or not.

The criticisms of the Guardian article may be valid, but ropey journalism isn't really very remarkable in the 21st century. Journalism about ropey journalism even less so. But, in both cases it seems someone is willing to pay for it, so who am I to criticise? Formerip (talk) 21:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

If we pay heed to everything that is said about WP, we will not have WP. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:33, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Mark Bernstein would like it known, for the record, that he had no contact with or participation in the article in The Guardian. Please be more circumspect when discussing living individuals in a public forum. Gamaliel (talk) 23:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, but it still must be said that his inflammatory and erroneous description of the situation is what caused all this nonsense in the first place.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Hear, hear... Carrite (talk) 02:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

• The bottom line is that we need to put a bullet in the head of the notion that "The important thing is verifiability, not truth." The notion of so-called "Reliable Sources" is a holdover from this justly discredited epoch. There are more accurate and less accurate sources, but ultimately there is an objective reality out there that we need to describe dispassionately and fairly for our readers. This whole Bernstein-Guardian fiasco is a microcosm of the way the mainstream media works these days — forget objectivity, the name of the game is clicks and ad dollars, and don't you forget it. It is up to us as editors to filter out the bullshit (whatever its source) and to honestly get to the truth. Verifiability and veracity. Carrite (talk) 02:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The present era is the only discredited one, and there is no objective reality that Misplaced Pages editors must construct. You have no right to criticise establishment sources. They are the foundations of society, and Misplaced Pages must adhere to societal norms if it is to survive. It is not a political project, for such a politicking as you demand is an exercise in discrediting its work. What's more, you fail to distinguish between the opinion pages and factual reporting, as is demanded by our policies. The op-ed in question was never a RS for statements of fact, as Misplaced Pages policies state (see, for example, WP:NEWSORG). We simply cannot accept activism by self-important internet peasants. They must learn their place. Misplaced Pages is all too often a vehicle for their nonsense, prey to the frivolity of youths without material grounding. Thankfully, our policies are written to protect us against their assaults. People may choose to ignore them, but they will be shown their error in time. RGloucester — ☎ 02:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. Long live the establishment, bro... Carrite (talk) 03:13, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Kindly enlighten us then how the hell bullshit news articles are going to be kept out then, including from what are considered RSes? Over the past 2 weeks alone I've already counted dozens of articles in mass media which have, either knowingly or unknowingly, contained plenty of factual inconsistencies. And those were not only re. GamerGate, but also regarding e.g. Greece, Ukraine, etc. As far as I could tell last time I checked their articles, there hasn't been any permanent vandalization through bad RSes *yet*, but considering the stupendous amount of RSes who publish outright lies or half-truths, there is going to be a moment that it cannot be avoided and that someone decides to make an case against Misplaced Pages because of it. MicBenSte (talk) 04:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

@MicBenSte:, just curious, what source of information do you use to detect the "factual inconsistencies" in mainstream media? You must have alternative sources of information for you to judge these "bullshit news articles" to be wrong. Maybe you should go to WP:RSN and argue for the sources of information that you think are more factually true to be accepted in the encyclopedia. However, if you are judging these articles to be untrue based on your personal knowledge and experience, that is original research and has no place on Misplaced Pages. Liz 17:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not how logic works. There are many mainstream news accounts that cannot both be true without any indication of which are accurate. There is no point in arguing which is correct. A simple review of the current events surrounding Brian Williams, the NBC News anchor, Reliable Source, and long time journalist. It sometimes seems that Misplaced Pages is like the benevolent, but hapless aliens in {{Galaxy Quest]] that use TV shows as the "historical records." --DHeyward (talk) 19:22, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

As editors we have both the right and a duty to question establishment sources. Something that is verifiably false is not verifiable. The buck stops with editors and logical arguments, not the authors that we cite. Rhoark (talk) 18:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

"Verifiability, not truth" is there for a reason. Every homeopathy shill in the world will claim that our article, which is fully verifiable from reliable independent sources, is nonetheless not The Truth™. Misplaced Pages cannot be the judge of truth, we do not have the subject matter expertise (or rather, we allow anyone to edit and explicitly do not restrict or weight that according to subject matter expertise). This is a foundational policy. Thus, if reliable independent sources are wrong, so are we, and so it has always been.

That doesn't mean we must include every factually incorrect allegation in a reliable source. We are allowed to look at how other sources view it, and draw sensible editorial judgments. If a climate denier (or a holocaust denier, or a creationist or whoever) manages to get an article published in a journal, that doesn't mean we set it against the overwhelming consensus view with the kind of false balance that bedevils news outlets. But accuracy and truth are separate concepts, and Truth™ is another again. We should aspire to an accurate representation of the consensus of reliable independent sources. Guy (Help!) 11:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

IMO, Auerbach is pointing out the extremely torturous WP process that created and perpetuates the GamerGate article even today. That it had to be described as "harassment and misogyny" because reliable sources said so. The Guardian was one of the most engaged reliable source on the topic. There simply weren't any reliable sources supporting "ethics in journalism" as an issue so rather than use common sense, we torched a large segment of upset gamers. Gamers complained but were drowned out by charges of "harassment and misogyny." The quest to banish the basement dwellers and rescue the damsels in distress was deemed righteous and good. Many battles were fought and many topic bans preceded ArbCom. And before the arbitration case was settled and before anything was final, the reliable sources that were torching gamers, turned to ArbCom and Misplaced Pages and shouted out "harassment and misogyny." Except this time we knew the reliable sources were wrong. It was error filled and loaded with hyperbole and was basically referencing a single blog written by someone that did not speaj for WP in either process or content as the source for its charges. No request for comment. No rebuttal. It really was a lesson in Ethics in Journalism after all. A number of years ago when the core of BLP was formed we looked beyond just "reliable sources" to damage to living people and made rules about "what not to write". The next logical step is to do the same with these hot-button social topics where vanquishing opposing viewpoints becomes larger than the goals of the project. We can't regulate off-site behavior but we shouldn't be blind to it either. If all the reliable sources still create an article that is so extremely polarizing that it fuels offsite threats, arguments and real-life harassment and fear, it simply can't be neutral by definition and perhaps shouldn't be written at all. --DHeyward (talk) 12:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate has to be described as harassment and misogyny for only one reason: the reliable sources show it to be exactly that. Doxing and threats of harm are not to be taken lightly. Those who were involved will in time, I think, come to be justly ashamed of this. I think many of them were caught up in a feeding frenzy. Others were deliberately and quite unapologetically vile, and I think history will not be kind to them. Guy (Help!) 11:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

That's the issue. Not a single, identifiable person has been named as GamerGate harassers but that's the narrative because there are identifiable victims that get coverage. On the other hand, those that are identified as GamerGate supporters by name are not harassing or doxxing anyone. Those identifiable people don't get their story told and the large number of people that are gamers are getting lumped into this anonymous group that are relentlessly attacked. "Ethics in Journalism" became a cliche as much as "Religion of Peace" is now used as a phrase to denigrate Islam. It's rather shortsighted to think that our "Reliably Sourced" article resembles reality any more than the Guardian article on Arbcom does. I'm sure the ArbCom members that banished all remaining feminists on Misplaced Pages will be "justly ashamed of this. I think many of them were caught up in a feeding frenzy. Others were deliberately and quite unapologetically vile, and I think history will not be kind to them." Except those ArbCom members don't exist except in Reliable Sources. Keep in mind that there are those that believe a billion Muslims will convert and will be ashamed if only more Truth about terrorism is published (and the overwhelming number of Reliable Sources today are not portraying Islam as a Religion of Peace but I hope you don't think this means Muslims will be ashamed and convert). --DHeyward (talk) 18:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Let me tell you a little story. Some years ago, a person took issue with my opinion on speed enforcement. They decided that my lack of opposition to enforcement of speed limits makes me a murderer (don't go expecting trolls to be rational). For over three years I was subjected to relentless harassment: phone calls at all hours of the day and night, posting fake "bad driving" reports with the number plates of cars seen outside my house, gleeful fantasies about stringing wires across cycle tracks to decapitate my children. It took me 18 months and about a thousand pounds in court costs and other expenses to find out, through a Norwich Pharmacal Order where I acted as litigant in person, who this individual was. The results of the Order were sealed by the court and can be used only in legal proceedings. The Crown Prosecution Service declined to prosecute because the person lived with their parents and all went "no comment" so any court case would have died on the basis that it's not possible to absolutely prove that it was this person and not one of the others in the house.

This was an obviously unstable person displaying anger that went well beyond the rational, who knew where I lived, knew my route to work, knew that I cycled along those roads every day. I went in fear for my life daily, because it doesn't matter if a driver only wants to give a cyclist a scare, the consequences can be fatal. A friend is a barrister, one of his first cases was prosecuting a driver who tried to scare someone and ended up hitting them and dragging the body under their car for over a mile. The case hinged on whether the driver became aware of the victim being stuck under the car before he died. Death was not instantaneous, they think he lived for several minutes as the back of his skull was worn away by the road.

By your rationale, no harassment took place. That's also the assertion of numerous trolls who followed this person around. They assert that because there was no court case, there was no harassment. The judge granting the Order disagreed: in his view the behaviour of this person was "sinister" and deeply threatening.

Who's right, the judge or the trolls who assert no harassment? Your argument says it's the trolls. If you've never been subjected to harassment then good for you, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's just someone needing to grow a pair, because I can tell you from personal experience that it is real, serious, and affects not only the persona harassed but also those around them. Guy (Help!) 10:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the personal note. I, too, have been subject to harassment. Mine is related to Misplaced Pages edits. Though I can't say I feared for my life, the contacts to my employer were downright nasty. I am someone in favor of the BADSITES policy which apparently gives certain trolls the license to complain to my IP provider in the hopes that I may be fired or shutdown or otherwise removed from discussion. I was also a defender of early BLP policies which made me the hero to some WP trolls that didn't like their BLP while making me the enemy of those that wished to shame the trolls. My statement about GamerGate isn't that harassment didn't occur (it did). Nor is my argument that harassment isn't intimidating or threatening (it his). In your case, it appears you were able to identify the person. That is where it diverges from GamerGate. GamerGate would be like learning that a group of people wanted subcompact cars to accurately label curb weight as under 1000 kilograms, another group claiming that their 1500 kG car is subcompact and a third group that threatens 1500 kg car owners with rape and death. By your argument, the group that wants sub-compact cars to be under 1000 kG are really harassers and responsible for death threats. They were open and public about who they were and never threatened anyone. Yet because of an anonymous group of trolls that threaten a group of 1500kG car owners, anyone that wants a standard to be upheld are responsible harassment. Surely you can see that the person responsible is a single individual. Surely there are others that drive the same make and model of car that your harasser drove. But even though seeing that make and model on the road near your house might make you anxious, you wouldn't advocate the arrest and conviction of a totally uninvolved car owner simply because he drove Make X, Model Y, Color Z. The GamerGate campaign did exactly that. What do you think happens to the gamer that says Depression Quest is not a real game or expresses indifference to how certain women are portrayed in Grand Theft Auto or says they play games to escape reality rather than reflect it? The reality is that no one really cared that all GamerGate supporters were declared misogynistic harassers even though all the harassment was anonymous and the identified supporters were not. My car was hit by a blue honda. It would certainly be great to have the police stop and arrest every blue Honda near my house, have others call in blue Honda sightings as well as blue Honda wrongdoings and have the press write stories about all the evil blue Honda drivers. It doesn't change the fact that only the blue Honda driver that hit me should be charged and his allegiance to Honda and his favorite color are not relevant to anyone but Reliqble Sources. --DHeyward (talk) 11:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Tell that to the anonymous Gamergate trolls who have sent me death threats, attempted to contact me via work channels, attempted to dox me, out me and harass me, all very identifiably done on Gamergate-related platforms. Sorry DHeyward, but the truth is obvious to everyone at this point. (And if this is a violation of the topic ban, I don't give a fuck, because ArbCom has no power to silence me from speaking out about the very real impacts on my life that stem from working to defend living people from vicious attacks and blatant misuse of the encyclopedia. I'm fielding media interview requests as I type.) NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

And who will you punish for that? "Are Gamers dead?" and deserve to do die because some unidentifiable troll harassed you and you blame gamers? I understand your anger but not how you broadly blame a wide segment of consumers because they dare share the same hobby (or more likely, they dare to dislike the same people.). --DHeyward (talk) 12:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's just blatantly false and I demand that you stop putting words in my mouth. I blame a relatively-small band of sociopathic Internet trolls who are widely-noted in reliable sources as being responsible for vicious acts of harassment, not to mention repeated, blatant, terrifyingly-awful attempts at using Misplaced Pages as a weapon of character assassination. That this band of people has come to define "Gamergate" is merely a statement of fact. Discussing the matter further in this venue is pointless, never mind my topic ban, so I'll leave it at that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you missed the point (and yes, I have been harassed as a result of Misplaced Pages edits too, that was just the worst one because the person was clearly unhinged and lived nearby). The issue is that anonymous and pseudonymous trolls are, by definition, commonly not identified until somebody goes to a great deal of trouble and expense. Therefore the lack of identified individuals is completely irrelevant to the well-documented incidence of harassment in the gamergate case. OK, so maybe some of it was merely obnoxious, spiteful, vile and despicable, but some of it undoubtedly was harassment and a great deal of it was undoubtedly misogynistic. The independent sources give abundant evidence of this and it would be perverse of us to whitewash that out of "fairness" to some people who refuse to acknowledge how hurtful and childish their actions were.

Gamergaters are not like people arguing over technical minutiae of car labelling. They are people who contacted employers, made credible threats of harm, fantasised about rape and assault, and engaged in various other morally indefensible acts, some of which at least have been identified by the sources as probably illegal. Sub-compact cars are not in any way damaged if you argue whether they should be classified as sub-compact or not. People are harmed, emotionally, by being accused of being whores. Trans people are harmed, traumatised to the point of suicide in some cases, by people taunting them over their gender identity and disputing their right to self-identify as they please. These are not morally neutral things.

Trolling like that is sociopathic. It is indefensible, however badly the trolls may have been hurt in the feels. Guy (Help!) 17:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

A "relatively-small band of sociopathic Internet trolls" is an excellent description of an anonymous, small group of unidentified people that are harassing people. Unfortunately, that's not how our article describes the harassers of GamerGate - it calls the harassers a movement with coordinated attacks not separate from GamerGate supporters in general. NBSBs statements also nicely characterizes what I said about reliable source. There are a small number of misogynistic ArbCom members that banned all feminists from Misplaced Pages and it was widely reported in Reliable Sources but RSes were wrong and obviously so - if you never name the bad people so there is not a face to go with the charge, it's real easy to say anything about them. You've had this conversation too, though, and when "GamerGate harassment" was proposed to become the narrower definition of a small, fringe group you changed gears and would not describe them as small and fringe and rather insisted it was the main view and cause for GamerGate supporters. Again, Reliable Sources was used to create this non-reality. And yes it would be nice if the small, anonymous group felt bad and apologized for harassment. The other 99% of GamerGate supporters that didn't do anything of the sort, now have to defend themselves. Why?. --DHeyward (talk) 18:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's like describing a mob as a small group of thugs with some hangers-on. Seriously, choose better friends. Gamergate was never about ethics in videogame journalism, the attacks started before that was retconned in. This is a group of trolls empowering each other, classic gang mentality. That's what the sources say, so it's what we say, and I strongly suspect that most of those involved will one day be justly ashamed of being part of it. Guy (Help!) 22:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The sources claim this but no one has shown any track of evidence or chain of expert authority that proves this. (The closest evidence is the purported logs Quinn got from IRC but that's been put into doubt and do not have the magic bullet to prove this). They have made these claims based on current behavior and past experience in dealing with the 'chan nature, and I myself would be surprised if this wasn't the case. But as an objective, impartial work, we have to be careful in repeating statements that may be broadly shared by the majority of sources as fact if they are highly contentious with no clear chain of expert evaluation (This is what NPOV says right at the start). We don't call Westboro BC a hate mob in WP's voice, just how it is taken as one by the mass media; we don't call Global warming a fact, but an observation, but demonstrating the massive volumes of data backing up the likelihood it is happening, and so forth. In the case of GG, we cannot presume just because the press is convinced that the group is dedicated to trolling and harassment that that is fact if there are GG people that are stating otherwise. We have to be objective and impartial irregardless of any personal feelings about the situation, and that's what is just not happening here because of the nature of the topic.

Or the TL;DR version: while we can't go off what the sources say or state they are wrong, we can, as a tertiary source, make the determination when they are engaging in opinion verses objective reporting, and reiterate that in our articles by making sure all opinion statements are flagged as such in the article. And we have to do that keeping our objectivity, neutrality, and impartiality in mind. In the GG situation, there a lot of exaggerated truths out there and very much of lack of actual data to back that up from all sides of the issue, and so we have to be aware this has been a situation created by the lack of good information in this case. We can't misrepresent sources nor ignore the predominate opinion, but we are in no way required to take what they claim as a fact and repeat it as a contentious fact; in fact, NPOV policy strongly suggests we always take the more conservative route and attribute claims as opinions than facts if there's doubt. That's just not being done on the GG article. --MASEM (t) 23:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: I don't know any gamergate supporters or even gamers, nor do I know indie game developers or gaming journalists so it's not me that needs new friends. I am an outsider and my first reaction to this whole thing was not to cover it. I do know how to spot railroading though. All the bad guys are anonymous. It's an amorphous "they." Anyone can be a victim of "them." It's that kind of thinking, without putting real faces and lives on the evil opponent and having them remain anonymous leads to dehumanizing conduct. This happens a lot on the internet but we should be aware about writing articles that identify an "evil" group that is easily dehumanized with very strong and broad language. --DHeyward (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I see sources that call it harassment, I see many credible examples of what look to me very much like harassment, I see Twitter discussing new anti-harassment tools and policies as a result of what they see as harassment, I see people whose opinion I trust stating that there was harassment, and I see an some people who deny harassment, the vast majority of whom appears on the face of it to be advocating for the gamergate cult. Bring reliable sources on a par with those that call harassment, which exclude it. It's a bit like the "ethics in videogame journalism" thing: we have much better sources saying it had nothing to do with that, than we have sources saying that it was about that, so we show that the balance of sources robustly reject the claim, because that is the truth. And the balance of reliable sources judge that this was harassment, just as the victims claim. But it's not going to get sorted by us talking about it here, it's going to get sorted only by bringing more and better sources. That's the way we do things, right? Guy (Help!) 23:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, everyone sees harassment. What they don't see are harassers. I'll wait until you name one. All the sophisticated tools and IP tracking and what not - yet we have no names. I'm all for identifying, arresting and prosecuting them. But as this is Black History Month, I'm not really up for the "It's them" argument because you dislike a group. Start naming individuals or this is just prejudicial hate. --DHeyward (talk) 05:58, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Auerbach's article is beautifully written and entertaining, but he does buy into a common but clear misinterpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. Despite what he suggests, primary sources are not prohibited; only their original interpretation in non-obvious ways is prohibited. As I said at one of these threads a week or so ago, we should never hesitate to link to the original primary source when secondary sources discuss it in depth - whether that is an essay by Gurney Halleck, a decapitation video, or the final (or not final) decision in an ArbCom case. The more accessible we make the record of what originally was said and done in any situation, the fewer misinterpretations will be made by ourselves or our readers. Wnt (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Practically, that doesn't work well in cases like this where the reliable sources got it wrong. Guardian, NYT, and Gawker all echoed the same thing. What do you write? It would be incorrect to cite the Arbitration page as supporting the conclusions of the secondary sources. So the next logical step is an EL. But then we are left with a primary source link back to the blog that started the incorrect stories sitting next to a link to Byzantine ArbCom voting. No one outside WP would get the "1st choice, 2nd choice but only if two other colleagues make this other thing their 1st choice, otherwise abstain." Bottom line is ArbitrationGate was deleted and rightly so. The article couldn't be written correctly so it's better not to write it at all. --DHeyward (talk) 16:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is an even slightly complicated question. The rule of thumb is don't put anything in Misplaced Pages that you know is false. In the event that there's absolutely no accurate information about something available in secondary sources, don't mention it, because it can't be very important. The "Arbitration Gate" article didn't really present a dilemma. It was just a straightforward case of a mischievous article. Formerip (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The entire GamerGate discussion is about what is true/false and what is in secondary sources. It's why it went to Arbcom. --DHeyward (talk) 22:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

No, it is about malicious people waging electronic rebellion. RGloucester — ☎ 22:32, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Avono (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh come fucking on Gloucester. That's a misrepresentation and you know it. But I won't continue THAT discussion here on Jimbo's page... MicBenSte (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

On the note of RSes... For a reason e.g. Breitbart is no RS yet Gawker is (while Gawker is at bad when it comes to the truth, and has an even worse 'falsehood recognition'-attitude then Breitbart). There's a whole list of current RSes who've shown over and over again the past years that their news articles are on average at best to be checked for minor errors, and at worst flat-out known lies... yet I don't have the impression anything has changed ever in that regard. As I stated before as an example: the Second Gulf War. The majority of the 'RSes' stated massively Hussein had ready to use WMDs, the Hussein government said it did not. How did that mess at that time get managed? If it was the same at that time as the past months, the article was in one hell of a problem when it came to being an truthful enclyclopedia (there's a reason those in print take years to make and don't compound recent events which are still going on or recently ended without any post-mortem, so to say..) MicBenSte (talk) 04:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I would never use Gawker as a source, though it may be valid for some trivia of interest to its core readership. Feel free to propose removal of any source in any article which has no reputation for fact-checking, at least if it is being used as a source of truth. Breitbaret is spectacularly unreliable, and at an extreme in the continuum of reliability, but that doesn't mean that anything less unreliable than Brietbart should be acceptable. Guy (Help!) 18:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Why the rev deletion? My comment is deleted yet is still visible O.o Avono (talk) 23:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

they have to revdel every edit after the bad one. They make an edit to the latest version to remove the bad information, then revdel every version in between so it doesn't show up in history. The fact your edit is still visible is an indication that your edit wasn't the violation. If they had more sophisticated revision control, they could extract the specific edit but they don't. I've always wondered if this method of oversight violated the TOS since comments attributed to individuals are no longer found in the history but I think they can unwind revdel's and oversights if it's necessary to identify who made a specific edit no longer in the history. --DHeyward (talk) 06:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC).

Quite the revdel it must have been then... And quite speedy. *Shudder* Just for confirmation's sake - nothing harmful to anyone was up for long, no? (Considering 25,336 character removed - were that much old posts 'removed' and reinserted? MicBenSte (talk) 02:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I would posit that the problem with the GamerGate Controversy article has nothing to do with the policy of RS itself, but rather, the biased application of the policy of RS. Yesterday a Spiked article which labelled 'GamerGate' in its people of the year 2014 was raised as a talking point. Spiked is accepted throughout Misplaced Pages as RS. Certain editors are scrambling to label it 'not RS' despite there being little harm in using that to say 'In Spiked's opinion'. Why? Because its opinion is 'Off Message'

In marked contradiction to this, many articles are sourced from numerous outlets such as Gawker which should be used to state 'Gamergate is commonly viewed by media outlets such as Gawker as being X, Y and Z' but which are instead used to draw 'factual' statements 'in the voice of Misplaced Pages' about those using the tag.

All of this considered, in addition to my great joy in lecturing the English and the billion or so who use en.wikipedia as a way to gain an opinion rather than thinking, I recommend you take a hint from 'us' on a more appropriate article in lieu of fixing fundamental editing problems: http://sco.wikipedia.org/Gamergate

77.97.17.147 (talk) 15:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

77.97.17.147, at this point, the article has over 150 citations and every new source that is suggested on the talk page is critically evaluated for its reliability and whether it adds new information to the article. I hope you will contribute to this consideration and the evaluation of already used sources. Liz 18:26, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not even only that WP:RS is being interpreted very one-sidedly (Kotaku has investigated Kotaku and found Kotaku blameless despite related retroactive disclosures being added on some articles ). Some of the editors involved are even gaming which sources are being used by removing many articles and opinions that would be WP:RS from the fray as “irrelevant” while directly citing from other opinion pieces throughout the article.

Every single source that would dispel certain notions presented in the article or at least offer a different insight is being declined on spurious reasons, for instance User:Aquillion seems to have identified the libertarian publication Spiked as “anti-feminist” while User:Liz is apparently surprised it is a WP:RS at all and rejected its various related articles and opinion pieces .

The same is true for other publications like DigiTimes , Reason , Cinemablend which had a range of great articles on the topic that aren’t included or GameZone among various others like The Examiner and Inquisitr

This takes some bizarre proportions when certain publications like The Escapist are quoted to describe GamerGate as “an unprecedented catastrof**k" and that silencing critiques of games harms games developers by depriving them of feedback” but the other 14 published interviews including by two notable CEOs of their own gaming companies like Brad Wardell and Daniel Vávra are ignored. or a former member of GJP is cited as not considering it a form of collusion on Game Politics, but the two articles describing the movement politically on the same site are being ignored

Some editors like User:Ryulong even went as far as to try and nominate a publication he identified as “GamerGate-friendly” like Adland for deletion which said publication noted in one of their articles , but none of their other articles regarding the controversy are being used while other editors like User:NorthBySouthBaranof were heavily involved in making Breitbart look less credible than even Gawker so it couldn’t be included as a reliable source for any information in the article.

This aside from sources like TechRaptor, Niche Gamer, GamerHeadlines, APGNation, GamesNosh, Game Revolution, Bright Side of News, Pocketgamer, GoodGamers and similar, which provide a broader perspective on the whole issue but aren’t considered WP:RS even for interviews with industry veterans and if the involved editors have their say will likely never be considered such.

Considering the name “controversy”, the lede doesn’t make a point out of presenting two sides or what one part of the conflict is even about. What the editors in charge of the article are doing is basically refusing to include and choosing to eliminate any pieces they ideologically don’t align with as described above as WP:FRINGE or the “opinion of a single writer” (despite the entire article quoting opinion pieces of writers over and over as statements of fact) or not noteworthy, so at the end they can say that the very misleading and one-sided article represents “consensus” of the sources within.

For anyone watching this entire thing unfold from the outside, it seems like an unparalleled farce that is dragging the believability of the entire encyclopedia through the mud and makes it seem like it is ignoring WP:NPOV. 79.247.126.207 (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

For anyone who sees Dig and the rest of that lot being compared as equal to Columbia Journalism Review, PBS, New York Times is laughing themselves to death and saying "Yep these are the same people whose best attempt at being relevant shows a complete lack of understanding of what ethics and objective mean." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Surely you don't want to insinuate that an opinion piece clearly labeled as such or a piece that is part of the New York Times Blog system constitutes them being interpreted as facts coming from the Editorial voice for said publications or are less respectable than the opinions stated by equally respectable publications? As explained by User:RGloucester above per WP:NEWSORG "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.247.126.207 (talk) 17:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Surely I AM stating that anything under the NYT imprimatur is vastly more important, relevant, and higher quality than most of what you have linked. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the website "Spiked" and I don't think questioning whether it is a reliable source (and for which statements it is being cited) is controversial. It should be standard editor behavior.

What I question is why you have posted this lengthy piece (filled with lots of applicable diffs) on Jimbo's talk page, rather than on the article talk page where content issues are normally discussed. I think you have a better chance at arguing your point there than on this page. Liz 18:34, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Why would anyone discuss it on a page that is as big of a scandal as the scandal itself? Posting the trite, sco.wiki is an elegant point. If you look at the Spanish, German, Norwegian etc. varieties you will find much more balanced articles that have considered RS and made very different conclusions to how that is applied. There is clearly a short circuit in en.wiki which is violating NPOV and causing bridgading on matters of RS and this has caused damage to the reputation of the encyclopedia.

My advice is simple. Avoid the tempting idea that claiming '150 sources have been RS'd' is in any way beneficial. The value of the encyclopedia has never been, nor will ever be in attempting to state it has all of the definition and answers to a problem. It is not an edited scientific journal and has no original research. Rather it is in providing sufficient information as a tertiary source to spurn users to delve deeper and reach their own opinion. Therefore, you should consider abridging the article to reflect equal opinion between available sources, if that means only using 4 sources per 'view point' and only covering the key topics then so be it.

In addition to this, I offer you a generous pro-tip: if you dislike #GamerGate and what it represents, then this will be ideal because at the moment this article is just adding fuel to the scandals fire.

Regarding why the conversation is here: IP editors are not allowed to edit the 'GamerGate Controversy' talk page (again). I guess they were inconveniently saying the whole article is embarassing and honesty hurts.

77.97.17.147 (talk) 20:26, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The protection level for that discussion page is that only autocomfirmed editors can post there (at least for the next few months when it expires). For more information on how to become autoconfirmed, see Misplaced Pages:User access levels#Autoconfirmed users.

As for your "big picture" criticism, we work within the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages as it is practiced on the English version and policies might be different in other language Wikipedias. In an article as carefully scrutinized as this one, it is best to have specific portions that you believe are not supported by WP:RS or you can present a reliable source that hasn't been used yet and make a good argument for why it should be incorporated. It sounds like your preference is for a complete rewrite on the article and, at this point, that's not going to happen. Change and improvement will occur, incrementally. Liz 21:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The statement 'A re-write of the article isn't going to happen' is an ownership problem. 77.97.17.147 (talk) 22:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Traditionally quotation marks are used only when one is quoting, not when one is giving a tendentious bad-faith mis-reading. --JBL (talk) 22:36, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

"A re-write of the article isn't going to happen" is a correct analysis unless there is somewhere a buttload of sources of the quality of BBC/PBS/Columbia Journalism Review that have somehow not been found and presented in the past 4 months. Sorry, but Dig is not going to change anyone's perception of how the mainstream reliable sources have viewed gamergate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

You appear to have fallen foul to a facet of IAR: Rules are 'descriptive' not 'prescriptive'. Thus a statement that an RS is usually viewed as 'High Quality' does not neccesarily engender that the source is valid in all cases, nor has priority over other sources in any case. It is the responsibilty of the editors and administrators to apply IAR if a rule is damaging the encyclopedia.

In this case the overuse (and likely unintentional abuse) of RS has caused damage both outwith the project and within the project due to a consensus failure. Common sense would deliver a result very different from the rule as should be applied here and thats where IAR steps in. As before 'RS' is a good rule, however, I recommend one of the article editors steps up and invites someone with material expertise in the application of IAR in to the topic as a method of acheiving consensus and to improve the value of the Misplaced Pages Project.

I'm happy to invoke IAR rather than cry foul here, however, I just checked the French version of this article and was stunned to see that it was very well balanced and NPOV just like the Spanish and Norge versions, though the Scottish one is still the best for conciseness!

77.97.17.147 (talk) 23:51, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

You appear to have fallen afoul of WP:IAR in the standard manner of missing the important conditional if it prevents you from improving the encyclopedia. Replacing NYT with Dig is not now or ever going to meet that conditional. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:03, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm assuming good faith on your part, you should be aware that Pedantry and the damage it can cause is the sin for which IAR was designed. 77.97.17.147 (talk) 00:11, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

William Usher, now the most reliable journalist dealing with Gaming matters: http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/02/how-wikipedia-uses-false-information-to-defame-gamergate/ 62.254.196.200 (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

As pointed out in a thread below, ET will soon be reading Misplaced Pages. So you have to wonder what ET would make of our obsession with Gamergate instead of more important issues. Count Iblis (talk) 21:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

While the Gamergaters doggedly defend their right to moral outrage over , Misplaced Pages is today running its fourteenth Final Fantasy Featured article as Today's Featured Ad. $$$LOL$$$ Wnt (talk) 18:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

February is Black History Month

A reminder that February is Black History Month in North America. If Misplaced Pages's gender balance between women and men is pathetic, we need new adjectives for the extraordinarily poor percentage of our active community who are black (if group photos of Misplaced Pages conclaves are a decent measure, which I presume they are). Whatever the complaints of systemic underrepresentation of female biographies and female-related subject topics no doubt also correspond to a systemic underrepresentation of biographies and topics of relevance to the black community. So please, content people of whatever ethnicity, do try to fit a new piece on a black-related topic (or three) into your writing plans this month. —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

If anyone is at a loss for finding a redlink, here are a few redlinked high schools from DeSoto County, Mississippi (pop. 161,300), part of the Greater Memphis area...

• Center Hill High School (Olive Branch)
• DeSoto Central High School (Southaven)
• Lake Cormorant High School (Lake Cormorant)

And a couple from deeper in the Mississippi Delta region... From Leflore County, Mississippi (pop. 32,300)

• Amanda Elzy High School (Greenwood)
• Leflore County High School (Itta Bena)

From Washington County, Mississippi (pop. 51,100)

• Riverside High School (Avon)
• Simmons High School (Hollandale)

Carrite (talk) 19:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

While I can see where you're coming from: wouldn't that be risking creating BLPs which are, to say the least, doubtfull whether or not they even should be here? Especially since there's an tendency anyway as far as I known to create new pages about people anyway - although most of those are nowhere near an biography standard for an tabloid, nevermind an site which wants to be an encyclopedia. Just my 2 cents. MicBenSte (talk) 01:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

unless I'm mistaken , that's one of the reasons that high schools were suggested as a topic. But there are abundant bibliographic resources for biographies also, and the same caution applies to all bios, to make sure there are good sources before writing an article. DGG ( talk ) 05:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

High schools are topics that anybody can write and that are automatically notable. Why are these high schools still red links? What do Mississippi public high schools have to do with Black History Month? Take one on and see... Carrite (talk) 07:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

And indeed, BLPs are generally where our coverage is widest. BDPs have significantly worse coverage, and better fit within the popular idea of history anyhow. WilyD 10:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• Agree with Carrite on this one. After watching 12 Years a Slave I did articles on two of the African-American folk songs included ("Roll, Jordan, Roll" and "Run, N*****, Run") and I was shocked by how poorly the entire genre is covered. I'm absolutely certain that there are more spirituals and folk songs that should have articles. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• On a different note, we do have some high-quality content related to African Americans scheduled to reach the main page this month. Clarence 13X and Poetry of Maya Angelou are both scheduled for February TFAs, and POTD has had Ida B. Wells already. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• As for biographies, I wrote Shelton Johnson, and significantly expanded Betty Reid Soskin and Leon Jordan. I am especially proud of the third, since he was a fascinating man and the article was in very poor condition when I stumbled across it. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• On the general matter (although perhaps not those high schools, sorry) Encyclopedia of African American History (Oxford 2009) ISBN|9780195167795 and ISBN|9780195167771, might support an article about it, and at any rate is a good resource (I wonder if there is an efficient way to compare their coverage to ours?) Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:00, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

There is also Journal of Negro History (1916-2001) / Journal of Afriican-American History (2001-2011) and Journal of Negro Education (1932-2011) that are part of JSTOR, for those of you with access or who know someone who has access... Carrite (talk) 17:32, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll just leave this right here: Misplaced Pages:JSTOR. Gamaliel (talk) 21:56, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• OK, from the far side of the big pond I've created a stub for Amanda Elzy High School, but not been able to answer the question which made me choose this one: "Who was Amanda Elzy"? Was she the youngest sister of singer Ruby Elzy, mentioned in this article? If anyone can help, please expand the article accordingly! So many schools, US in particular, are named after people; so few of the articles tell us who the person was. PamD 17:12, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't do many school articles, but the ones I've bumped into with arcane names like that are usually named after local educators, school board officials, or politicians, I've found. Which doesn't answer your query... Carrite (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

From Pam's article: "In 2014 its students were reported as 100% "economically disadvantaged" and 100% "minority ethnicity/race". 98% of students were black, 2% hispanic, and 0.5% white (this last figure obscured in statistical rounding)." Show of hands: Who thought racial segregation was gone in American education? Carrite (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

From Pam's talk page note: "Unfortunately the school doesn't seem to have a website, nor the school district (well, there's a work-in-progress site, with "ipsem lorum" placefiller text, for the district)." Show of hands, who thought that such a situation was even possible in the United States of America in the year 2015? Carrite (talk) 17:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

And a follow up question for people to ask themselves (and to maybe even try and figure out, because there is an answer): What the fuck is going on here? Carrite (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Um... I am not seeing those stats any where in Pams article. Where did you get them from? BlueworldSpeccie (talk) 17:56, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@BlueworldSpeccie: Second paragraph of Amanda Elzy High School. PamD 18:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh silly me I was looking at the Ruby article. BlueworldSpeccie (talk) 18:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, cracked it: yes, she was the singer's sister. Thank you, Google Books. In fact there should probably be an Amanda Elzy article, but for now I've added stuff to the school article and that's a redirect. Will give her a mention in her sister's article, too. PamD 23:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Nice work. The available online sourcing for Mississippi high schools is truly shitty, one of these days I'm gonna take a spring vacation to the Delta with a camera and am gonna sit in a few libraries... Carrite (talk) 23:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have always felt that BHM's appearant focus on civil rights leaders leaves so many other notable people in the shadows. In compiling the article, Kohler Distinguished Guest Series, I learned about many performing artists I never knew such as Leonard De Paur, William Warfield, Dorothy Maynor, Camilla Williams, Todd Duncan, and Hazel Scott just to name a few. These were very gifted and talented people who deserve more recognition than they get. They accomplished many firsts that most people don't know about such as the first African-Ameican woman to host a TV show, etc. Nyth63 20:29, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Why advertise this on Jimbo's talk page? Why not WT:AFRO or, since you're focused on schools, WT:WPSCHOOLS? Lightbreather (talk) 01:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with light, Carrite what do you expect Jimbo to do about it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting: a suggestion that the question of a group's under-representation in Misplaced Pages coverage, and among editors, should not be raised on this widely-read page. Hmm. (Declaration of interest: I am female but not black or American.) PamD 07:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Dan David Prize

Congratulations! Gamaliel (talk) 22:11, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

yes congratulations!--5 albert square (talk) 22:15, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Ditto. I hope you get to keep this one! Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. It's a strange and sad week, what with the terrible news of the death of my friend and business partner, and then the welcome news of this prize.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:29, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, a few months ago you accepted an award from one of the Arab regimes, and were criticized for accepting it because that Arab regime as well as all other Arab regimes violate human rights You then pledged to give your award to a charity organization that fights for human rights in the Arab world. Now you were awarded by an Israeli organization. Do you believe Israel violates human rights as well, and, if so, would you use the money for a charity? Thank you. 172.56.39.59 (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I wondered how long this would take. Gamaliel (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Took longer than I thought it would @Gamaliel:! Surely people can just be happy for someone winning something?

Jimbo, I'm sorry to hear about your friend :(--5 albert square (talk) 20:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Note that the Dan David Prize isn't awarded by the Israeli government, but by a private foundation. So unless you want to use that money for a charity that fights for human rights in Photo-Me International automated photography booths... --GRuban (talk) 03:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Apparently he was notable (see Andrew Rosenfeld). Everymorning talk 22:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Even more Gamergate ArbCom flak

(I'm taking a new section, as this could easily get lost in the relevant section above.) This article in Overland presents yet another inaccurate and unfair account of what went down with the ArbCom case on Gamergate. Probably nothing can be done about it, but once again a couple of points come out of it. First, Misplaced Pages is paying quite a price for maintaining its integrity and neutrality and other values... but of course it absolutely must do so. Second, note that Overland is quite a classy literary and political journal in Australia. Although it is left-wing and polemical, it has considerable academic and journalistic credibility. But once again, we see a piece written for such a supposedly credible publication echoing what has been said in other publications. Quite a narrative is now being created as the "reality". It's another lesson as to how this can happen and how cautiously we need to treat allegedly good sources when it comes to current political and cultural controversies. Metamagician3000 (talk) 12:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

the discussion had veered into areas where a person being discussed would have been denied a right of reply -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"First, Misplaced Pages is paying quite a price for maintaining its integrity and neutrality and other values... " I question this interpretation. There is nothing in the ArbCom decision about integrity or neutrality of the article, the ArbCom results are claimed to be purely about behavior. I am particularly not seeing any integrity of the project being upheld when the ArbCom bows to pressure from the Foundation to issue a "press release" in the midst of an ongoing case - and then shortly thereafter finalizing their decision in a manner which contradicts what they had stated in the press release. That all seems very much multiple examples on "non-integrity" and well deserving of outside scorn. (restored on -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC))

Also restoring my response if we are going to discuss the " integrity " of the project. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

"when the ArbCom bows to pressure from the Foundation to issue a 'press release'" - this is nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=644757552

I don't think that overland.org.au is a reliable source. Anyone can create a website and I don't think that it is Misplaced Pages's responsibility to respond to, or cater to every non-reliable website. I've been on Misplaced Pages for a number of years, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard non-reliable sources complain that Wikipidia's articles are biased or non-neutral. Let me count the ways:

• Misplaced Pages is biased and non-neutral because it reports that the universe is about 15 billion years old, not six thousand years according to the some literal interpretations of the Christian Bible.
• Misplaced Pages is biased and non-neutral because it reports that terrorists attacked the United States on 9/11, instead of reporting it as being an inside job by the US government or by the Jews. (Building Seven! Building Seven!)
• Misplaced Pages is biased and non-neutral because it reports that NASA landed astronauts on the Moon, and not that it was faked in some Hollywood studio.
• Misplaced Pages is biased and non-neutral because it reports that climate change is real and not perpetuated by a global conspiracy of climate scientists.
• Misplaced Pages is biased and non-neutral because it reports that the Earth's shape is spherical, not flat, because, well, f**k it. I can't keep up with every fringe theory).

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:29, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Overland (magazine) Would appear to have the pedigree to qualify as a reliable source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:32, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Really? So how do you explain how it got this story so wrong? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I dont see "got it so wrong." "Late last month, it was reported that..." Late last month it WAS reported that ... In the article that made Misplaced Pages and the ArbCom look so bad that the Foundation pressured the ArbCom into making a press release in the middle of crafting their final decisions which resulted in the convoluted public statement that clarified nothing except that no one was being banned . And then the final decision was presented in which the ArbCom did in fact ban a user.

There are very few sources that get coverage of the details of Misplaced Pages's byzantine internal processes "right". And given the events like this mess, its no wonder.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:36, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

"...the Foundation pressured the ArbCom into making a press relaase" - this is nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

This probably stems from here where its clear it wasnt a unanimous decision to issue a statement. But I dont remember any comments anywhere saying it was WMF initiated... Easy thing to find out however just by asking. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I will strike the claim now about the foundation because I cannot currently locate in the sea of pages and comments and blanked discussions where the question was asked "Whose idea was it to put out a press release anyway?" and an ArbCom member stated "The Foundation" . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

here it is " : In fact the impetus for the ArbCom (not Misplaced Pages, ArbCom) statement came from the WMF.   User:Roger Davies 22:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC) " TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

And in what strange universe does that translate into "... the Foundation pressured the ArbCom into making a press relaase" ? The WMF offered valuable assistance at a very dark moment, and I'm very grateful that they did.  Roger Davies 14:33, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

"The impetus came from..." has a very different meaning than "The WMF offered valuable assistance". Not having access to the private discussions by the insiders, we can only go by what the insiders tell us. In this case the words of the insiders told us that the idea for the convoluted and unhelpful press release was pushed by WMF. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Though none of this confirms your imaginary claim that "the Foundation pressured the ArbCom into making a press relaase (sic)". They didn't.  Roger Davies 14:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:Verifiability, not truth nuff said. Avono (talk) 15:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

So the WMF didnt pressure the ArbCom to issue a press release, the ArbCom came up with the idea on their own and with the "help" of the WMF drafted a "statement" that was convoluted, vague and provided misdirection. Either way, neither the Arbcom or WMF look good. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

In other words, you are saying that the assertion made about the background of the press release that you are all worked up about may well be false, demonstrably false, but because it was widely publicized and "neither Arbcom or WMF look good" in the aftermath, that somehow proves something. News flash: the Arbcom press release was made necessary only by the artificial shit storm stirred up by Mark Bernstein on his blog, which presented a false, demonstrably false, spin on the ongoing Arbcom case. But hey, The Guardian picked it up — reliable sources and verifiability not truth etc. No. false is false is false. Verifiability and veracity are our standards. And we shoot for fairness. Carrite (talk) 15:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The last time I looked, the ArbCom was not writing an article for which they would be bound by content policies. Did I miss something? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

And what I am saying, is that when the Arbcom was portrayed in an unflattering manner in a major news outlet, someone thought the portrayal was so bad that a response needed to be made before the decision was finalized. And then either 1) the WFM "impetus"ed the ArbCom to release a terrible and misleading statement in the middle of their decision, which made the Arbcom look worse for its clumsiness and even worse when the decision contradicted a claim that had been made in the statement that was issued just days before (and WMF looks terrible as well for "impetus"ing such an action); or 2) the WFM provided "valuable assistance" while the Arbcom crafted a terrible and misleading statement in the middle of their decision, which further made the Arbcom look bad for when the final decision contradicted a claim that had been made in the statement that was issued just days before (and if that statement is the result of the type of "valuable assistance" that the WMF gives in "dark hour", then the WMF looks really bad too). -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

As I read the history: 1)press article containing misstatements about arbcom 2) press or wikipedians request for statement from wmf about false report concerning arbcom 3) request from wmf to arbcom to explain whatever they wish to explain so the wmf can issue a press release. 4) Part of the arbcom explanation was 'decision is evolving.' It's basically a mistake to understand as the Arbcom statement itself as a press release, when what it was, was an explanation of wikipedia process (the wmf does press releases - arbcom does and always will do statements by committee). Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

" It's basically a mistake to understand as the Arbcom statement itself as a press release," that is a distinction without a difference. If the ArbCom thought is was so necessary to respond to the press, to WMF, to the wikipedia community with a "statement" in the middle of their deliberation, they could hardly have done worse in responding to any one of those constituencies than they did if they had tried. ("Valuable assistance" from the WMF notwithstanding. ) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, one thing is pretty certain, 'they could have hardly done worse' is the opinion of someone, whenever Arbcom does (or does not do) anything. 20:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• Randall Munro has already explained this: citogenesis. It used to be known as the Jimbo's Birthday Problem. Guy (Help!) 23:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It's the new age of journalism where reality is relative and reliability depends only on what side your bread is buttered on. Fox News? NBC News? CNN? Heck, the debate above is about a reporter relaying a study in a peer reviewed journal and the entire discussion is about the reporter, not the peer-reviewed journal. The reality is that all of our topics are like this but we can only find false statements in the ones we are familiar with. There are just as many false statements in "reliable sources" about virtually every topic covered by the encyclopedia. I find it astonishing that we blindly accept controversial claims by "reliable sources" when our own experience is "wait! that's bullshit!" We should have a "Wait! that's bullshit!" tag so every editor can raise the flag about bullshit claims. --DHeyward (talk) 06:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

How to fund Misplaced Pages (tongue firmly in cheek)

Charge anyone who posts anything about "GamerGate" 10 cents per word added on any Misplaced Pages page. Collect (talk) 16:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Please send $1.90 to the WMF, Collect. I would say more, but I can't afford it. Cullen Let's discuss it 21:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to care about something when it just goes, on and on and on and on ..... Jimbo's User talk page has been hijacked as a forum for this issue. The whole topic should be banned from here and all discussion of such deleted. Nyth63 01:43, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

If that includes the article, I think the "Gamergaters" would be just fine with that. 104.207.136.115 (talk) 01:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Your take on a women-only project

I would love to get your feedback on the idea of a women-only project. And by project, I don't mean a separate site like Misplaced Pages or Commons. I mean a WikiProject just for women.

I proposed such a space - WikiProject Women - on January 6 at the IdeaLab. The ensuing caterwauling didn't surprise me - the GGTF ArbCom was only recently closed, and the Gamergate ArbCom was underway - but it is nonetheless disturbing. And I'm continuing to take flak for having the chutzpah to pursue this idea.

One of the things that came out of the discussion is that the German Misplaced Pages apparently has or had something like a Stammtisch in a user's space. Since the proposal of a women-only project was so outrageous to so many respondents, I decided to try a Kaffeeklatsch area in my user space. This survived a lengthy MfD, in which LuisV (WMF) said the space does not violate the WMF non discrimination policy. Yesterday, I created a redirect, and today a shortcut, to the klatsch page, and this, too, has been called up for deletion, and I've been accused of canvassing because I invited women's projects to participate in the discussion. To atone (although I don't believe my invitations were contrary to WP:CANVASS), I have also put a notice on the Men's right movement talk page.

I would like to close by saying that my efforts to create a women-only space is done in good faith in an effort to help close Misplaced Pages's gender gap, although ironically, the community's lack of support must be looked upon by outsiders as a good reason to keep away. (I would have loved such a refuge when I first started editing.)

Thoughts, please? Lightbreather (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Reply by Jimbo Wales

Comments by others

• Dear Lightbreather, since you ask for thoughts: is you very own phrase "the community's lack of support" not telling you anything at all? Personally, I and, I suspect, many others couldn't care if women have a 100 places or projects to call just their very own, and wish they would just get on and create these places and stop making so much noise about it. It seems to me that anyone who voices any dissent is accused of mysogenism, without a shred of evidence to back it up, which could explain why some are backing away from you. I'm unclear what any of us males here are expected to about the supposed gender gap? Go out on the streets and solicit women to join? I haven't seen many women doing that either. Personally, I suspect if the ratio of women to men is vastly disproportionate here (I'm unconvinced of that), it's because women have better things to do with their time, or as one woman of my acquaintance said "Bugger that! Writing for hours every week! If I'm going to work, I'd rather be paid for it." Which proves that besides being able to swear, women are quite astute and sensible too. So my advice is: stop winging and just go and create a project if that's what you want to do. Giano (talk) 17:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • who voices any dissent is accused of mysogenism, without a shred of evidence to back it up? DIFFS, please. Lightbreather (talk) 18:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
    • There you go again! Immediately confrontational and aggressive. Try listening/reading for once and you might just achieve some of your goals. Giano (talk) 18:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

However, since you ask for diffs, I think this one (it's actually me responding) to a post from an Arb, sums up how sick some of us are with this constant inference of mysogenism, where actually there is none. You and your female colleagues would achieve far more if you went about things in a less confrontational manner. Giano (talk) 20:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's of you responding. The post you were responding to - - was addressed to one of WP's editors whose style is unapologetically foul-mouthed. I think that is a bad example upon which to declare that anyone who voices dissent is accused of misogyny. I will share with you something that I said to another editor that seemed to help him understand his own feelings about this issue.

I think a lot of the resentment on WP is a result of defensiveness. Most of the guys on WP are probably fine men, and among those fine men such sexism as might happen is unintentional. However, because of the defensiveness, it's hard to address. One thing I've heard a lot as an editor is "grow a thick skin," but when it comes to discussing sexism, even unintentional, systemic stuff, suddenly a lot of otherwise rational men become hypersensitive - as if they are being personally attacked. Lightbreather (talk) 15:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• In my opinion a "women only" project is no more appropriate for the foundation than a "men only" or "whites only" project. It is sexist and shamelessly discriminatory. If you want a private forum then pay for some web hosting, Misplaced Pages is not the place to create a project that excludes half the population based on circumstances of their birth. Chillum 18:01, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

As this is JW's talkpage. It might be best to allow JW to respond first? GoodDay (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Does that ever happen? Chillum 18:19, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Lightbreather, to call the opposition to your proposal "caterwauling" is dismissive and disrespectful to the editors that posted there, and is a good example of what I see as you making combative posts. It's my experience that combativeness tends to be met with more combativeness, and perhaps that's part of the reason you're receiving so much flak. Ca2james (talk) 19:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It's ironic. Sometimes I use the intentionally combative style that is customary in this mostly male environment, and someone almost always calls me on it. However, if I do the same - point out someone's choice of words - I'm being thin-skinned, or argumentative, or something along those lines.

I used "caterwauling" because the style on this page, whether Jimbo means for it to be or not, is that of a bunch of guys talking at a bar/in a pub. Lightbreather (talk) 15:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Again, you appear to be dismissing editors' opinions by saying that the style on this page is that of a bunch of guys talking at a bar/in a pub, and again that comes across as disrespectful of other editors. If someone said that you were part of a group of caterwauling editors or that the style of the kaffeeklatsch was that of a bunch of girls at a quilting bee, you'd be very upset - and rightly so, because those statements would be derogatory, dismissive, and combative. Your statements are no less derogatory, dismissive, or combative because you're a woman. I understand that you feel attacked and that you feel like everyone is against you, but the words you've used and the statements you've made (not to mention edit summaries like this one, where you use what appears to be an infantalizing nickname for someone you don't like) escalate the problem rather than work towards fixing it. Being combative to make a point does nothing to change the atmosphere on Misplaced Pages. Instead, it comes across as disruptive and even more combative, which in turn leads to more combativeness. Ca2james (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not dismissing it. I'm saying I'm accepting the fact that, here on Jimbo's page - many talk pages, actually - a lot of the posts, IMO, sound like guys talking at a bar - much, much more informal and "back at ya" than say in a formal setting with men and women present. And again, ironically, I get called on it when I use this language, when guys go on using it all across Misplaced Pages every day. However, if I complain about it, I'm being sensitive or stirring up trouble. Here are some comments that I find variously derogatory, dismissive, combative, infantalizing, sexist, and so on.

• many here are sick to death of and their Gestapo like posturing.
• I became totally sick to death of this ridiculous persecution of , by a group of self-appointed feminists who would not know the meaning of the word feminism if it jumped and bit them on their over-rested behinds; and what's more if it comes to fanning flames, I suggest you look to the top of the Misplaced Pages tree, not amongst us twigs at the bottom.
• I tried to give a shit, I tried to salvage you as an editor. It is clear you are not going to allow that.
• Better luck next time and keep the fuck off my talk page
• You are on a mission, and missions on WP usually end up in tears, in my limited experience.
• Since says above that she is a feminist, she should back off on these related issues. She won't, of course, and I'd be surprised if she doesn't also have me firmly in her sights. If she does then she will "win" at some point ... and Misplaced Pages will lose.

I'm not saying whether the editors who said these things are "good" or "bad"; some of them I agree with, some I don't. The thing is, look at the language. Ninety-nine times out of one-hundred - more often than that - I take the high road and keep my comments perfectly civil. But when I allow myself to talk like the guys, I'm asking for it by being "combative"? Lightbreather (talk) 00:14, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• As a practical matter we have no way to verify who is a woman on Misplaced Pages due to Misplaced Pages:Outing. If you have a women only area, there will surely be some imposters or worse, trolls, to stir up trouble. I recommend you start a forum off site, utilizing your freedom of association rights to invite and approve membership of whoever you like, verifying their identity however you wish. Jehochman 20:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Mr. Hochman approximately once every month that has fewer than 30 days. This is one of those times. I've said it all along — there is nothing wrong with feminism, there is nothing wrong with political organizing, there is nothing wrong with commiseration and complaint (even angry commiseration and complaint), there is nothing wrong with coordinating investigation and positive activity... There IS a problem with politicization of Misplaced Pages itself. Wikipediocracy is your model. Take it off-wiki and run it as you wish. But Misplaced Pages is not the place for identity politics. Carrite (talk) 04:40, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Bully for you, Carrite. However, whether you agree with political organizing on-wiki or not, it happens here everyday, and among more men than women. And when you take your work off-wiki, it immediately loses its authority on-wiki. No thank you. My intention isn't to create another off-wiki space to dissect and report about what's going on on-wiki. My intention is to create a space where women can talk among themselves on-wiki - just as men do here every day - without getting marginalized. Lightbreather (talk) 16:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

You can create a salon in your user space and exclude anybody you don't want to contribute. Editors have wide latitude to disinvited others from their own user pages. I suggest you not exclude men who are sympathetic to your cause. Keep in mind that there are some women who don't identify on wiki as women, and you shouldn't exclude them. Allowing a few men into the club will provide cover for the non disclosed women. Jehochman 17:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@LB. Well, at least you are finally calling it what it is: "political organizing on-wiki." And dittoes again for Mr. Hochman's perceptive comment, which makes us both "Dittoheads" to some people, I suppose. Carrite (talk) 23:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Carrite. So you're one of those people who twists others' words to support their claims, eh? Got it. Here's what I said:

My intention is to create a space where women can talk among themselves on-wiki - just as men do here every day - without getting marginalized.

If you want to reduce that to "political organizing," fine, but don't say that's what I call it. Lightbreather (talk) 00:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• Personally, I don’t agree with everything Lightbreather does or suggests and have mixed feeling on women’s only space, but I can’t help but notice the response to LB’s efforts seems extreme. Also, this statement from above stands out as a bit ironic: I suspect, many others couldn't care if women have a 100 places or projects to call just their very own, and wish they would just get on and create these places and stop making so much noise about it. Seems like much of the noise is actually coming from those opposed to LB’s efforts. I’ve never seen an MfD get so much attn before (actually I've never seen an MfD before) I’m not sure the answer, but It appears there are editors who spend significant time and energy acting as detractors of whatever LB is doing. If others really want LB to stop making noise and get on quietly with her wiki efforts and editing, seems like ignoring her more, which would include to stop talking about her elsewhere, might just achieve that. Just a thought. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:21, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Hear, hear BoboMeowCat. Those worrying about me should follow they're own advice and go work on some content. I'm not "up to" anything that's going to do anything other than - maybe - bring in and help keep more women editors. Lightbreather (talk) 16:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• If Lightbreather and the majority of her fellow female editors want a woman's Misplaced Pages only space then let them have one. It's unlikely to work for the reasons that Jehochman gives above. It will be renowned only for the heated debates of who is really a woman, what is a woman and demands for proof of womanhood - at least in RL, one has a sporting chance of spotting the female impersonator. There will also be huge demands for men only, gay only and God knows what only pages, but if our female editors really feel the need for such a page/group, then let them have it. If it all goes wrong and fails, then at least it's had a chance. Women are generally tougher than they look, they are likely to survive. However, if they get it, they should beware of acquiring a ghetto or bunker mentality, it cannot be an escape from the real world of Misplaced Pages - nor should it carry mass voting rights anywhere on the project. Giano (talk) 21:39, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, why not? These ideas hardly ever end badly, except when they are introduced on days with a Y in the name. Guy (Help!) 23:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: I sure would like your opinion on this, I believe I've heard these others before. Lightbreather (talk) 00:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)You are on Jimbo's talk page, pinging him accomplishes little. Chillum 00:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Between my post to him and now how man of you have replied here? The notice of my original post has probably rolled into oblivion by now. But at any rate, your telling me that my ping accomplishes little... accomplishes little. I know y'all despise me. Why not just ignore me, and let me have a little one-on-one with JW? Lightbreather (talk) 01:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

If you think that Jimbo's opinion counts for anything more than anyone else's, you are much mistaken. That is a fallacy that has led to many problems in the recent past regarding exactly the sort of thing that you have raised on this occasion. He is, of course, entitled to his opinion but if you intend to cite it in some way then you will find yourself "laughed out of court", so to speak. - Sitush (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Sitush, people come here asking for Jimbo's opinion all the time. Do you give everyone this lecture? This discussion is about my efforts to help close the gender gap, and unless you're here to contribute productively, and not just thumb your nose at me - which is your wont with me - I'd like it if you'd skedaddle. Lightbreather (talk) 01:27, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

My comment was meant to be productive, advising you that Jimbo's opinion carries no more weight than that of the many other people whom you have canvassed. His is just an opinion but it is notable that you tend usually to canvass in a selective manner and, even then, hit problems. Your Kaffeeklatch has been mentioned far and wide over several weeks but as of now has received more opposition from self-identified women than it has signatories, despite various short bursts of invitation-postings, announcements and similar by you; for example: here, here, and with comments such as this. In fact, you've probably had more support from self-identified men than women, and they are excluded from the thing. It is these sort of responses from the very demographic among which you seek support, and your past efforts to gain his backing regarding the civility campaign, that lead me to the conclusion - perhaps wrong - that your intent is to quote Jimbo in order to bolster an initiative that is not gaining traction. You may or may not want to clarify the correctness of this conclusion but I felt it only sensible to point out that fairly similar recent invokings of The Word of Jimbo, including by yourself, have failed to make a blind bit of difference. Like I said, he is entitled to his opinion but so is everyone else. Given that your past invocations of The Word made no difference, the phrase "the triumph of hope over experience" comes to mind. I am sorry if my bringing of your optimism down to earth is upsetting but life does not always go how we would like it, and that includes when asking people to "skedaddle". I shall now bow out: feel free to have the last word. - Sitush (talk) 04:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Meant to be productive how? (Rhetorical) Your opinion means ZERO to me, but as a (co) founder of Misplaced Pages - and as someone who has always been polite with me - his opinion means a lot. Your dictatorial musings, although annoying, boost my optimism more than deflate them, though I won't go into details. And I shall have the last word - thank you for so generously offering - my intent is NOT to quote Jimbo. Is that why you follow me around? Maybe you're hurt because I haven't quoted you? (Rhetorical) Lightbreather (talk) 15:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I've unhatted this discussion. A separate section already exists for the cofounder to reply if he so chooses. This one accords with his open-door policy. Writegeist (talk) 02:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for unhatting. There's no such thing as a one-on-one on this page and the expectation that there would be struck me as strange. And @Lightbreather:, "I know y'all despise me"? Really? Someone disagreeing with your stance is not an attack. Even lots of people disagreeing with your stance is not an attack. Claiming people disagreeing with you despise you is so egregiously gross and is, honestly, a transparent attempt to cast yourself as a preemptive martyr to some conspiracy against you. And when you finally get your "proof" in the form of another sanction against you you'll laud it but somehow you're missing the whole the message you're trying to purvey. You want a more collaborative environment, I assume, yet your go-to action is exclusion or retaliation. Capeo (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, the old Lightbreather casts herself as a victim argument, eh? No, the fact is that I am despised by many here. Anyone who says otherwise is spreading horseshit. Lightbreather (talk) 16:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

If you really think people around here despise you then I don't know what to say. I'd certainly disagree that's a "fact". It's certainly true many people don't like your ideas or, at times, your tactics but that's a million miles away from despising you as a person. I'm quite sure I need not tell you that as well so if tough not to see you using such strong rhetoric to serve a purpose. Capeo (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• So, Lightbreather... Tell us about all the fantastic things that your Kaffeklatsch beta page in user space has accomplished... Has it coordinated production of any articles? Lead any joint investigations? Provided a venue for socialization and warm interpersonal relations among female Wikipedians, free from the oppressive burden of male patriarchy and patronizing interpersonal relations? Has it helped even one new female Wikipedian in any way? Or, rather, has it been nothing but a distraction and a cause of disruption and an attention generating mechanism for YOU, YOU, YOU? Just wondering... Carrite (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

<sarcasm>Yes, Carrite. You've hit the nail on the head. And I'd like to thank you for all the help you've given to make Misplaced Pages a more welcoming place for me and for all women.</sarcasm> Lightbreather (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Don't overgeneralize, it's not the combative, warriorlike on-wiki behavior of "all women" that I have a problem with. Or "most" women. Or more than a very, very few. Carrite (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Is it possible to create a project in your user-space? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• LB: If you want a one-to-one with Jimbo, try email. PamD 06:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Lightbreather:I'm going to have to echo this- it would be far more constructive (and you'd be met with a vastly politer reception) if you contacted Jimbo by email rather than his crowded talk page. PeterTheFourth (talk) 10:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hi Lightbreather, you don't need anyone's permission to create a WikiProject; just create it. You cannot however restrict who belongs to it or who contributes to it (unless there is actionable behavior which needs to be reported at an admin noticeboard). If you really want to communicate with a group of exclusively women editors, I suggest forming an email list of trusted editors, or a creating a private forum (like a private members-only Yahoo forum), or etc. Softlavender (talk) 10:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Softlavender just brought up some thing that I've been wondering and thinking about since this thread began- you can't restrict a woman's wikiproject to just women. We don't restrict wikiproject:judaism to just Jews, neither do you have to live in Chicago or have any ties to that city to be in that wikiproject.Camelbinky (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I do appreciate the good-faith efforts to come up with solutions, but this off-wiki space idea has been discussed on various WP talk pages and at the IdeaLab talk page, where you'll find one of my responses. Lightbreather (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hi Folks, I hope you don't mind a few comments from me. Some time ago when I was moderating a web site and forum that probably had a similar male/female demographic to Misplaced Pages, a similar issue came up in which female users often felt a little intimidated by the approach of some male users, although nothing breached the site's rules. Some female members wanted to set up a female-only sub-forum, and a number of male editors objected - some quite strenuously. The solution we came up with was to open a female-oriented sub-forum, though not actually ban males from it but instead specify the fairly mild feminist scope of the board and welcome males who were happy to fit in with that. There was still significant male dissent, calling it unfair discrimination, so what we did was offer a similar male enclave for those who wanted it and apply the mirror-image rules. The result was pretty peaceful. The female forum went on to considerable strength, with males contributing from time to time and those not abiding by the rules ejected, and the male forum quickly withered with almost no contributions after the first couple of months - it appeared that female users genuinely wanted a forum to do female stuff, but the males who insisted on their own board really only wanted it to be seen to be equal. I've no idea if this is of any help here, but I thought I'd share the experience. Squinge (talk) 17:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Very sensible, but not what is being talked about at all. This is a proposal for women only, no male participation allowed on the basis of gender. Quite a different kettle of fish. Carrite (talk) 23:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Lightbreather, have it your way. Start this "Wikiproject Women" or whatever you want to call it. Then see how much light it will create for women editors in proportion to heat. Warning: not much. Beyond that, as the great Jimbo Wales said himself, "Fork off!" No really, you can create an offsite forum similar to WO, or fork the whole project. I doubt any such initiative will be any more successful than one on-wiki, though. KonveyorBelt 17:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I don't see the harm of this, as long as it's understood that because of anonymity there is absolutely no way to ascertain if an editor is a woman. Coretheapple (talk) 17:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Historically, Lightbreather, WikiProjects have focused on subject matter and not the status of editors (as I'm sure you know). Is there something that your proposed WikiProject Women would do that can't be done under the auspices of gender WikiProjects like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender Studies, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women's History and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women writers? Because it sounds more like a support group than an editing collaboration. Liz 18:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• BOTTOM LINE: This idea is not going to work because the fundamental premise of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit. If you want something exclusive or private, go somewhere else. It's that simple. Softlavender (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• Great idea, How about a "Women only" Misplaced Pages too? ... The whole point of this website is that anyone can edit, Not just men, Not just women ... but everyone of all genders - Personally I think it's a pointless idea! (BTW I apologize for the comment before this wasnt helpful!). –Davey2010 01:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Valentine Greets!!!

Black History Month redux

So you don't want to write about schools? Okay, here's one for Black History Month that really needs some TLC: National Equal Rights League (NERL), the oldest black liberation organization in the USA, dating back to 1833. Flagged for SOURCES with only one footnote showing despite being a Misplaced Pages page launched back in November 2006. The words "unacceptably poor" come to mind. Carry on. Carrite (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible ARCA precedent

It hasn't been confirmed, but an ARCA amendment request archived today may have set a precedent; it is possible the Committee has never declined an ARCA request by motion before. Lightbreather (talk) 02:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Still got my bowl of popcorn handy, apparently I will need it. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 02:12, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo this is your talk-page if you are going to answer then please do, if not then I don't see why we need to be talking about a declined arb-com decision here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:21, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The reason being is that she was not pleased with the result and is raising it here. I will not comment further other then note that this is the second time in as many days that it has been attempted. I will step out and now let the cooler heads do the talking lest I anger the ArbGods. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 02:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)